Pressing buttons
There's an element of poetic justice in it really. Mike German, the outgoing Welsh leader of the Liberal Democrats is incensed by a leaflet that was shoved through his door in Cwmbran while he was at the party conference on Saturday.
It came from True Wales, the newly-online No campaign and is, says Mr German, 'lacking in truth'. What is doesn't lack is button-pressing. They are all there - AMs in shiny palaces with snouts in the trough, dreaming of more powers, next inevitable stop: independence and bust.
That's the journey True Wales makes in its first leaflet - read on and decide whether you're prepared to make it with them. This is the gist of their message:
The All Wales Convention is a publicly funded Yes campaign "travelling around Wales with £2.5million of your money"; if you vote yes in a referendum then "on previous form, AMs will award themselves an inflation-busting pay rise" and you'd probably get another twenty of them, queuing up for more cash and second homes.
The referendum would "set the country on the road to separation from the UK" so forget law-making powers alone and when you vote in a future referendum, think independence as an inevitable consequence. Given Wales pays £9billion less in taxes than it gets in public spending, in "an independent Wales we would either have to scrap the NHS and every council, or every man, woman and child will have to pay another £3,000 in taxes".
Will their arguments have traction with an awful lot of voters in Wales? Yes, of course they will.
Is Mike German right that they're more un-true than true?
Take just one figure: the '£2.5m' being spent on the All Wales Convention. There is a half a million per year in the budget to be spent on the Convention. The figure is there in the budget line for three years but given the Convention intends to report back in its second year, it should cost £1m.
Where does the £2.5m figure come from? It includes £1.5m for the Convention and the £1m budget of a separate commission charged with looking at the way the Assembly Government is funded.
So no, It isn't accurate. But if you were on the 'other' side of the debate, would you relish having that argument ("it's just a million") with True Wales just now?
And is Sir Emyr Jones Parry's Convention going to take on those arguments while it gathers evidence and when it finally reports? That's not what it's there for. Yes, it is absolutely there to advise the government on how best not to lose a referendum. Hardly surprising then that not everyone swallows the 'neutral' tag. But does that make it a Yes campaign? Only in the same way that £1m can add up to £2.5m.
Will the arguments True Wales is taking to the people of South East Wales (and beyond in months to come) kickstart an official Yes campaign? Hardly. Mike German believes his Labour and Plaid colleagues in the shiny palace in Cardiff Bay are 'laggards'. They believe that to launch a campaign now - just when you're more worried than ever about next month's fuel bills - would do very little for further devolution and in Labour's case, do even less to promote party unity: a happy coincidence.
It's not going to happen. For now, it's just no.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~33~RS~)
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Whether "True Wales" is to your taste or not, Betsan hasn't included the following information .....
The "One Wales" agreement between Labour and Plaid include the statement .....
"Both parties agree in good faith to campaign for a successful outcome to such a referendum." Found at page 6 in the document.
The successful outcome in question is a "Yes" to the question .....
"It’s the right time for Wales to take the next step towards full law making powers?"
This is the "All Wales Convention" successful outcome question.
Betsan's question ....
..... "But does that make it a Yes campaign?" I think so!
I do not think "No" is wanted on this particular journey, at least not by the Labour-Plaid, joined at the hip administration.
Democracy demands debate, "The All Wales Convention" is not going to facilitate discussion.
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It just goes to show how small-minded some Welsh people are. If the referendum ever happens, it won't be about independence, but about a legislative Parliament, which even then would be a relatively weak body.
I was doubtful about Plaid's decision to enter into a coalition with Labour. As time goes on, the more sure I am that IWJ has made a monumental blunder. He made that decision before Gordon Brown's descent into great unpopularity, when it seemed possible that Labour might be re-elected in 2010. (its still not impossible, but very unlikely).
At best, the Welsh Labour party is divided on the issue of a Parliament. At worst, and by far the most likely scenario, their MPs will wreck it. I am convinced they would fight to deny the people of Wales their Parliament, even if it means a decade of harsh Tory rule.
I can't understand the mentality of those who oppose more self-government for Wales, especially those that oppose any devolution. What do they propose instead? A return to the pre-assembly days? A return to a Redwood, a Hague or a Hain. They might even argue for the abolition of the Welsh Office, and have direct rule from Westminster. No-one can argue that Wales has prospered under such government. Its limped along. Its not an argument for or against Plaid, its an argument for Wales, our country, regardless of party loyalty, or affiliation. The Scots have woken up to the fact that their country is better run by Scots, who have the interests of their own country at heart.
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I'm not saying that you have to speak Welsh to be Welsh, but the "True Wales" website isn't offered in Welsh. And please remember that this is a referendum on further powers - NOT on future independence/further powers.
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This campaign group has had its lies systematically disposed of by Mike German, a politician I don;t usually have much time for - such as the lie about Wales's 9 billion pounds so-called 'dependence', a figure arrived at by looking at how much Wales gets without calculating how much it contributes.
Never such such a bunch of lies.
And as for the crypto-fasvist title True Wales, it makes you wonder what those of us who disagree with them are? Untrue Welsh? Non-Welsh? The 'wrong sort' of Welsh?
And what are members of the Labour party doing getting involved with this right-wing John-Redwood-loving outfit anyway
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"The Times" reported that in Wales we pay £19.3 billion in tax, but receive £28.4 billion in spending. I think that particular study has flaws, but the underlying assertions are correct, we receive more than we give.
From the "Big Lottery Fund", Wales receives 6.5% .
Via the "Barnett Formula" 5.38% of the pot is distributed to Wales (2007 - 2008 figures)
........... and we have, 4.9% of the UK population.
.......... and poverty and deprivation exists outwith our borders, throughout England, these conditions are not a Welsh phenomena.
But that's not the issue, daverodway, without debate we do not have Democracy. If "True Wales" are peddling half-truths, distortions or lies, eventually truth should out .........
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It's strange - whilst all the politicos are worried about winning I get the impression that we've got the zeitgeist - bring it on !!
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I have just visited the True-Wales web-site and I dont think they have thought things through......
True Wales advocates:
spending priorities that reflect the needs of all the people
(so is that an increase in spending?)
restoration of a cohesive, tolerant society
(when did we lose the one we have?)
no increase in the current number of AMs and MPs
(I would be happy with keeping the total the same - 20 more AMs - 20 less MPs)
keeping the Secretary of State for Wales
(I could live with that)
the maintenance of a strong position within the United Kingdom
(which means what....)
that any application to draw down Legislative Competence Orders from the United Kingdom Government should reflect the wishes of the majority of the Welsh people
(as determined by majority of democratically elected AMs)
True Wales is nothing more than a front for the Conservatives who want a return to thye days when a Conservative appointed Secretary of State decides what happend in Wales - regardless of the will of the people.
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If True Wales is so into the riches of 'settlers' then why is it that the Tory MPs behind this group are also the ones most against immigration? Do they believe that only the English have the right to 'settle', and that anyone else needs quotas?
The tories have been complaining about multiculturalism for years, wanting immigration quotas for everyone for themselves!
We have nothing to learn from anti-European, anti-foreigner, xenophobic groups who are against immmigration generally, but sing the praises of 'settlers' when they think they might get a quick vote out of it.
What are members of Labour getting involved with these people? And what are the progressive tories, of whom there are plenty, going to do to distance themselves from it?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
penddu has broken the house rules, by .....
"Contains a link to an external website which breaks our editorial guidelines"
Yet the moderators allow this rule infringement, double standards possibly, definitely not democratic.
It is also very suspicious, particularly as the external references point to two spoof sites.
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"No" to .....
"It’s the right time for Wales to take the next step towards full law making powers?"
"Yes" to .....
"The current powers available to the National Assembly are enough?"
Provocative in the current political climate, possibly, but for a substantive reason.....
The Welsh Affairs Committee has just published its report on “The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) Order 2008?.
In essence it was returned to sender because ....... the committee stated:
"Orders should be drafted so as to transfer only those powers which are required and for which a clear purpose has been established"
The people we have entrusted with our future are not doing their job, if they were this type of episode would not be possible.
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#11 TheStonemason said:
"The Welsh Affairs Committee has just published its report on ?The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) Order 2008?.
In essence it was returned to sender because ....... the committee stated:
"Orders should be drafted so as to transfer only those powers which are required and for which a clear purpose has been established""
That's the Welsh Labour MPs determined to throw a spanner into the Assembly's works. These people are against devolution, not because its a bad thing, but because they stand to lose their cushy jobs and pensions. If Wales is able to legislate for itself, through a Parliament, or even these pathetic LCOs, Westminster will drastically reduce the number of Welsh MPs.... and quite right too.
Perhaps they, a challenge to them, or any one of them, would like to list the benefits they... Welsh Labour MPs... have achieved for Wales, individually or collectively, since the longest serving of them was elected, then go ahead, here.
I am convinced that the list would be a very short one, if it contained anything at all.
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True Wales and say what it likes we now have an unofficial yes campaign group on facebook
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40044911971
Wales First is a non political campaign group for a yes vote in a referendum all are welcome in the last few days our numbers have grow to almost one thousand.
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brynt41, your .....
"These people are against devolution,........... because they stand to lose their cushy jobs and pensions."
An incredible assertion, particularly as the committee members gave specific reasoning why the LCO was returned.
The real tragedy is that our representatives in Cardiff find themselves unable to draft legislation according to the rules.
Jason_Cardiff, your .....
"Wales First is a non political campaign group......"
"Wales First" is political by virtue of its campaign for a "Yes" vote in the improbable future referendum. It does in fact describes itself as "a non-party political group" in the facebook URL.
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Very true in my rush to type the message I missed that part, The membership is growing by the day help take Wales forward by putting Wales first.
Show your support at - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40044911971
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Firstly True Wales. If this leaflet is anything to go by they intend ignoring the subject of the referendum and intend on frightening people with the prospect that any yes vote would be a vote for independence and for a poverty stricken environment. Its exactly this sort of scaremongering and distortion that harms the democratic process. Wild and exaggerated claims, coupled with their scare tactics do not bode well for any intelligent debate.
Secondly the response of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee suggests that its members go back and look at the relevant act. its not their job to veto the National Assembly's proposed measures, just to say whether they should have the power to pass measures on a narrow matter within a specific subject area. The exact content of any proposed new Welsh law is not their concern. More of this from them and it will confirm my suspicions that the whole LCO procedure is designed to get people to vote yes in any future referendum on full legislative powers. Their attempt to restrict the nature of any future measure under this LCO is an subversion of the current settlement.
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Wales First also has a blog.....
http://walesfirst.blogspot.com
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Lyn_Thomas wrote 'Its exactly this sort of scaremongering and distortion that harms the democratic process'.
What harms the democratic process is the exclusivity of the All-Wales Convention and the Tomorrow's Wales Group that are, effectively 'yes' campaigners, both of whom only reach out to the Welsh elite. There has been, up to now, no platform for balanced argument or input from the grassroots. 'True Wales, I'm sure will redress the balance. That is democracy. Why are people so fearful of an alternative viewpoint?
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No problems with honest debate, but saying that the All Wales Convention is a yes campaign is a lie - that isn't honest debate.
The arguments advanced by "True Wales" aren't on the proposed referendum but about independence, and even then they are far fetched and dishonest. Debate on the issue at hand yes, frothing at the mouth rants about possible future events that aren't on the agenda no.
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Betsan, There is a disappointing, and frankly probably a BBC-Protocol-Breaking lack of balance in this article.
You should try reading Mark Mardell's Euroblog. He gives balanced views of the pro and anti European integration argument and doesn't resort to this facile shrugging of shoulders.
Certainly you should point out that the 'True Wales' campaign is partial, and bring them to book over any inaccuracies.
But I detect between the lines some of your personal views impinging on your reporting.
This is not your job. If the likes of Jeremy Bowen or John Simpson started doing that about the Middle East, where would we be?
I'm not going to make a complaint at this juncture, because I know you can raise your game beyond this.
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Why do the views of people who were opposed to devolution in the 1970's,late 1990's and today raise such fury with the Welsh Nats or fellow travellers. This particular issue has divided Wales through party and non-party lines with the exception of PC.The last referendum was won by a hairs breadth even though the welsh media,and civic society was heavily in its favour. There was never a clear and unequivical desire amongst the welsh people for the local politicalization of of virtually all the functions of welsh life. If there was it was reflected in last referendum. Before the ink was dry on the Act and creation of Assembly the nats were "at it" about its lack of powers and that has continued to date. When Parliament created the body the system of electing AM's was unlike anything seen in this country because of the "fear" of power of a one party state through the Labour Party. As a British Unionist who has seen both Labour and Conservative governments(in their proper term)elected to Westminster and also the Lib/Lab pact so we have seen changes in people who govern us because there was the will of people who voted at elections. With this "mickey mouse "body I find that PC are in GOVERNMENT whereas their overall vote is insignificant when compared to the total voting patterns. They are not even decent people in that with one hand their political aim (as they are entitled to in a democracy) is the destruction of UK by the creation of an independant wales. They have no doubt sworn an oath to the Queen to uphold and defend the constitution so there seems to be a tad of a contradiction in thei political position. There is no doubt in my mind that the nationalists even if they obtained more powers for Assembly in a 2011 referendum would not stop on "their long march"to independance. These people will never be satisfied until they have completed the TALIBANISATION of Wales by having a welsh speaking republic and therefore the "NO" lobby have a perfect right to state So Far and no further.
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legendaryavocet, your "Why are people so fearful of an alternative viewpoint? "
Their real fear is that their underlying political and economic philosophy may become common knowledge during a democratic debate. The Independence question currently is the PC Achilles heel, but that is only because their 1950's Socialist agenda rarely breaks into the popular print, add too that the elitist nature of their organisation, debate is definitely not needed on this journey.
Having said that, they have many wonderful Welsh people giving their vote in support, people who are unaware of the above.
As I wrote at the beginning "Democracy demands debate, The All Wales Convention is not going to facilitate discussion." Without that is, organisations such as "True Wales" insisting on debate.
Snoutsintrough, in an earlier Post I used the expression "Gulag", I dread to think what trouble your "TALIBANISATION of Wales" might cause.
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Terms like the Talibanisation of Wales are beneath contempt. No real debate just slanging and attempting to create a climate of fear. Pathetic and unworthy.
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"Talibanisation"
"They are not even decent people"
'Welsh speaking republic"
'ethnic cleansing'...
The politics of lies, fear and smear.
Enough said.
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Thestonemason (22) Thank you for the warning as(23) illustrates. Is it correct that PC has an agreed policy to seek the independance of Wales and create a republic of socialistic nature?. Does it also seek to enhance the use of the welsh language throughout which will marginalise the majority of english only speaking people. The Taliban wish to take muslim countries back to the stone age and totally dictate the day to day operation of ordinary peoples life. It is only my perception and it might be wrong but the "cultural"drive in wales over the last 20 years has been at then expense of the very bottom of welsh society. It seems staggering that the educational attainment/ill health/unemployment etc of the welsh "underclass" not a nice term but we know where we are with it seems marginal to some of our political masters. I do not accept that any of the "sceptical"people in relation to constitutional change/language policies wish to create a climate of fear but have aright to express their great concerns as to where some people wish to take us.
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During the recent Plaid Cymru conference I heard their 'leader' Ieuan Wyn Jones
who, incidentally, both in tone of voice and stature, really does remind me of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, say the following...... "We would not dream of calling a referendum as long as there was any chance of us losing it"
I didn't like the sound of that !
Remember democracy........
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Snoutsintrough
Page three of the PC constitution .....
at 2.2 .....
"To ensure economic prosperity, social justice and the health of the natural environment, based on decentralist socialism.
I think it is important to understand the significance of "decentralist socialism".
I have only found one document that explains in full what the expression means. If you search on the BBC website for decentralist socialism, on page 2, following the PC dross there is a reference to "Ralph Borsodi and A Decentralist Manifesto". This is what PC is about. The Language issue is quite different. I recommend Borsodi.
You can of course search for "Ralph Borsodi and A Decentralist Manifesto" but by doing so you loose the PC context.
After reading this document, I began to understand what drives this organisation and its followers.
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I would recommend the PC website, to get a feel for what drives this small group of people check "Latest News" and "Bloggers for Plaid", it is enlightening.
George Orwell wrote "Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception." He didn't include Elitism, which PC is.
Noah_sembly is absolutely correct to remind us to "Remember democracy........"
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Thank you Thestonemason for enlightenment in 27+28.Just had a look at PC website and examined bit about this new body that is going to examine funding for Wales which might come up with the original idea that "WE NEED MORE MONEY". Why bother with the expense and time involved as we know the outcome. Would you think that every part of the UK including Londonmight be saying the same to GB. I suppose its politics by if PC think that a labour government is going to give more money (over and above Barnett) to a "nationalistic" coalition in Wales then their "dumb".
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The vicious, Welsh-hating, paranoid underbelly of the Assembly-bashers is really quite revealing. Allegations, smears, cranky accusations, lies and fear politics, from the promoters of a Tory party that remains the most xenophobic, immigrant-hating and right-wing force in UK politics, and NuLab clones who fear losing their hegemony.
What an unholy alliance, afraid suddenly that the way they've sewn up the UK to their advantage - we'll keep Wales, say Labour, and run it like our private fiefdom for 100 years of decine... 'And we'll keep the South of England, where the money is, and obsess about Europe, our borders, stopping foreigners from coming in and bellyaching about multiculturalism, and privatising everything from schools to hospitals.
Frankly the idea that Plaid are more dangerous, vicious or inept than this lot is laughable.
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Elitist?!
Come now, Blair was a public schoolboy, Cameron, Osborne, Boris Johnson et al are old Etonians, Tory and probably Labour have more ex-public schoolboys per capita than Plaid... tax breaks for the rich, inheritance tax cuts (there's an elitist tax!), private schools registered as charities for tax purposes and so on and so on...
and you say Plaid are elitist!
For some people the fear and hatred they have for a few Welsh-speakers leads them to smear a whole culture and a whole party, while blinding themselves to the obvious fact that they've never minded elitism before.
What a servile mentality, servility laced with hate, and not a single decent political or economic point in their defence.
The True Wales pamphlet, as Mike German pointed out in public, contained lies, outright lies, about a range of issues from so-called independence to AM's salaries. Fact.
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daverodway,
Elitist Plaid .....
"Ralph Borsodi and A Decentralist Manifesto" the only written reference available at this time that directly refers to the Plaid constitution and "decentralist socialism" .....
quote, on ..... "A New Leadership."
"The leadership which the priests lost to the warriors, the warriors to the kings, the kings to the business men, the business men to the financiers, and which the financiers are now losing to the politicians, must be assumed by a group which sharply distinguishes between the exercise of influence and the exercise of power. The minority of concerned and thoughtful teachers and writers, of poets and preachers, of artists and scientists, of physicians and lawyers, who constitute the real leadership of any society, must be. reborn."
Does the "Carpenter" have a voice in this brave new world of the "the real leadership of any society", a variation of Plato's Republic where the philosopher reigned supreme, I'm afraid not.
Not a democracy.
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For those of us who are old enough to remember the 1979 referendum the tactics of True Wales are exactly those of the no campaign then. Namely to spread fear and lies that the very very modest measure of devolution, which was the democratisation of the Welsh Office, would lead to independence and the poverty of Wales... As if Wales wasn't already poor. They also suggested that South Wales would be ruled by a North Wales Welsh Speaking Elite, who would deny jobs everywhere to any one except fellow Welsh speakers. In the Welsh speaking areas they suggested that the assembly would be dominated by failed councillors from South Wales and implied the whole thing would be corrupt. For the most part the no campaign avoided debating what the proposed Assembly could do and instead projected an image of a bankrupt corrupt Wales sliding inevitably into independence. Of course this wasn't helped by the BBCs graphic department that used a graphic of Scotland and Wales linked to England with the chain links breaking and Wales and Scotland floating off into the Atlantic. They introduced this at the time of the Kilbrandon Report and was kept for the devolution discussions as a backdrop. Helped give the impression that devolution = separation in the most visual way.
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Well well well, whoever would have thought it. After all their bluff and bluster of the last few years, the "Independalista" movement is struggling.
Gone is the confidence of yesteryear. In it's place is a nasty, vicious, confrontational approach which shows just how desperate they have become.
They rather pathetically show us the results of opinion polls (mainly of the notoriously unreliable telephone variety) financed by Plaid Cymru.....Stop wasting your money lads,nobody believes them anymore.
Our Welsh forums are packed with Plaid foot-soldiers, tamely obeying the commands of their leader Dafydd Iwan to go out and spread "the word" any way they can.
On a daily basis they are utterly defeatd by just a handful of anti-independents blessed with a good sense of humour, who wipe the floor with them, almost without trying.
Plaid Cymru peaked about a month ago. They have nothing to look forward to now except meeting up in their usual haunts to discuss what might have been. Along with the obvious question of where did it all go wrong.......
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Adam Price writing in his blog 11 Aug, post entitled "Silence is not an option" ....
quote .....
" ......... in 1997 Dafydd Wigley, as President of Plaid, published a paper calling for a multi-option referendum, including Plaid’s policy of independence in-all-but-name. If we are open and honest about our ultimate aims then people will respect us even if they disagree. I fear that any attempts, however well-meaning, to obscure our nationalism in order to avoid ’frightening the horses’ would be seen as devious at a time when honest politics is at a premium."
.... end of quote.
He is of course writing about "Independence" (at that time referred to as "Welsh membership of the United Nations") a condition the majority in Wales abhor.
It is not fear that Unionist's spread, rather it is the underlying philosophy that supports the Nationalist propaganda.
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Stonemason - you're really desperate and your points have absolutely no relevance to the contemporary world or the situation in hand.
I notice you dont; answer my point about th epolitical elites.
Noah - does your famed sense of humour and opposition to hatred explain your comments , made on a BBC blog, tha English speakers are 'superior' (your term) and that 'the sooner Welsh goes down the pan the better'?
Because if it is I've seen plenty of hate, abuse and language extremism from you and your kind!
Your true colours are exposed for all to see. Your clutch at straws if you think otherwise.
You have no arguments, just abuse and elitism and a false sense of cultural superiority, all the while blaming the Welsh-speakers fof it. Freud say something about it: it's called displacement...
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daverodway,
There is no desperation, only a wish to see the truth out.
One of the tasks of the Unionist is to objurgate the "colonial victim mentality" being impressed upon the impressionable by nationalists.
..... "the political elites" you describe are controlled by the British Constitution, unwritten and imperfect, but in existence. There is no unknown.
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Good heavens the knives are out for the "anti" devolutionists/independance people who are simply saying "it aint perfect" but is what your proposing any better. The nats and fellow travellers dont appear to be doing too bad and every ordinary working clas person (including myself) who has worked is reasonably OK.Who in creality cares about Owain G. who ever he was except the welsh lunatics who seem to want to take us back to the middle ages. I am welsh as were my parents/grandparents and as my children are however were and are realists. I personally do not hate anybody but I am fundamentally opposed to the people who have created the atmosphere of more devolution or independance. It is never ending and will not stop until we have a vote of this matter.Both of my children worki in the "private sector" in England
and with their job insecurity and destruction at present of private sector pensions we humbly have more important matters to worry about. It is not just the welsh nats who are in the trough to see even Conservatives who I thought believed in the "small state" party having second homes along with all the others it makes one weep.To see our glorious leader followed by the deputy first minister and trailed by the Secretary of State for Wales walking into the Summit made my stomach crawl. Where are the "giants" of welsh public life who could make an impact in Westminster and beyond? The scots have taken over the bloody country but the english will sort them out eventually.
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36. At 6:20pm on 18 Oct 2008, daverodway wrote:
I notice you dont; answer my point about th epolitical elites.
Noah - does your famed sense of humour and opposition to hatred explain your comments , made on a BBC blog, tha English speakers are 'superior' (your term) and that 'the sooner Welsh goes down the pan the better'?
Because if it is I've seen plenty of hate, abuse and language extremism from you and your kind!
Your true colours are exposed for all to see. Your clutch at straws if you think otherwise.
You have no arguments, just abuse and elitism and a false sense of cultural superiority, all the while blaming the Welsh-speakers fof it. Freud say something about it: it's called displacement...
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Reply from a delighted Noah Sembly
I am mightily impressed daverodway.!!! You have at last washed off a little of the palour that comes with spending too much time at the chalk face.The fact that you have probed so far back in time, and found a small part of a forum reply where I mentioned that "English speakers are superior" and that "the sooner Welsh goes down the pan, the better" is heartwarming.
Now just think about it Dave....don't you think that maybe...just maybe, there might have been an element of sarcasm and winding-up of the Cymraeg there???
Still, now that you have found the post maybe you can print a complete version of it.
You have also discovered my "elitism and false sense of cultural superiority"...us Ely boyos are noted for such traits. You see it's all that wealth and privilege we endured during our youth spent lounging about on the grassy slopes of Grand Avenue...."Turned our 'eads see."
Lastly Dave, I think you may have become a little confused about our Sigmund. Psychiatry was his game, not the building of large ships. Or indeed physics..Eureka !!!!!!
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there are many labour and lib dems who will be saying yes for more powers to the assembly....the wales first campaign is 1 campaign made by people who support this new parliament....
what I want to know...is why do most people oppose this scottish style parliament with full law making powers for Wales?
2011 referendum for full law making powers is NO step towards independence,... its just a government in Wales having the chance to make certain decisions for Wales only,............... without Westminster's consent.....
what is wrong with that?...
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dylanrees88,
Whether you live in Swansea, Sunderland, Shetland or South Tyrone taxation collected is equal, we pay the same.
Is it not logical and fair that we should expect the same benefits, no matter where we live.
It is not devolution we need, it is a better more equitable government. It matters not where the government is situated, only how it operates.
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Who are the wealth creators that can ensure Wales doesn't become a third world country if we are forced down the road of Independence?Facts show
£2.00 of every £3.00 of our GDP is produced from the public sector.
Out of £127 Million Pounds received from Europe in convergence funding approximately £2.5 Million goes directly to the private sector (wealth creators), £4 million to Charities/Vol. sector and the remaining £100-million give or take a few British Pounds goes directly to the Welsh Assembly.
Wales receives approximately £9.1 Billion more from the Exchequer than it pays in taxes.
In an Independent Wales will we able to afford the NHS, Policing and Security Forces without massive taxation hikes and handouts from Europe (if we are able to join). Please, please tell me how will we pay for it?
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The question isn't about independence - its about granting the power to the assembly to make its own laws in the devolved areas without having to go cap in hand to the UK government.
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The nationalists are not so shy about their aspiration for an independent Wales, these days. Anyone who believes that AMs ambitions will stop at further law-making powers is deluding him/herself.
While I'm on the subject of the nationalists - when is the Presiding Officer going to do the decent thing and either stick to his remit, or resign and be his party's spokeperson?
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He is sticking to his remit, he is commenting not on a party matter, after all the LCO had the backing of the Labour group, this is defending the National Assembly. He is impartial in the chair, scrupulously - but he isn't the speaker.
The Presiding Officer has done a good job, remember the days when Alun Michael tried to limit his independence by trying to impose a legal advisor on him who was also an adviser to the cabinet? Under the old system he secured the independence of his office from the executive and strengthened the rights of back benchers of all parties by securing an independent parliamentary service.
Now he is defending the Assembly against the unconstitutional attempts of a clique of anti devlolution MPs to control the executive and legislature in Wales.
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And independence is another topic, not on the agenda at the moment and could not happen without the express permission of the Welsh people in a separate referendum.
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I beg to differ - Independence will be an inevitable consequence if the Assembly gets full law-making powers.
The Presiding Officer is responsible for:
the working of the Assembly and for ensuring that the proper procedures are observed;
services for members, such as the library and briefing service, which support Members in their work; and
services to the public, such as the information service and the visitors’ programme, which aim to raise the public’s awareness and understanding of the Assembly.
I'm not sure that this squares with his recent outbursts:
His disgraceful actions over the Israeli Ambassador’s visit to the National Assembly
His comments over the Office of the Prince of Wales
The Welsh Affairs Select committee of MPs want to give Cardiff the powers for which the minister for Housing had asked. They are saying that the assembly should amend the power request it had made to ensure it fitted the policy. Where's the problem? DET just can't help picking a fight with MP's - Immature behaviour!
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How does giving the Assembly legislative powers over a sub set of subject areas inevitably lead to independence - by stealth? Sorry you have to demonstrate how, you can't just assert it. Prove how giving it legislative powers in these narrow subject areas will automatically make Wales independent.
His role implicitly makes him guardian of the the assembly and its powers, in as much as the speaker is. The proposed LCO was passed by the Assembly thus it is policy of the assembly. If MPs seek to undermine that then he has a role.
It is not part of the role of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs to restrict what a future Welsh Government may seek to do with the powers granted to it. This is what they are trying to do and this is outside their remit.
Some MPs can't help picking a fight with the assembly.
It show how unstable the LCO route is.
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Full marks for loyalty to your Assembly masters, Lyn Thomas.
The fact is the nationalists are now openly stating their aim to achieve independence for Wales. If they win a referendum for further powers, the AM's, plus, at that stage, twenty more of them will start agitating for independence. They will be driven by their inflated egos and salaries.
I refer you to Stonemason's message 11
Yes" to .....
"The current powers available to the National Assembly are enough?"
Provocative in the current political climate, possibly, but for a substantive reason.....
The Welsh Affairs Committee has just published its report on ?The proposed draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) Order 2008?.
In essence it was returned to sender because ....... the committee stated:
"Orders should be drafted so as to transfer only those powers which are required and for which a clear purpose has been established"
The people we have entrusted with our future are not doing their job, if they were this type of episode would not be possible.
My sentiments entirely.
DET does seem to believe that he is entitled to adopt his presidential style over matters such as the above, the Israeli Ambassador's visit to the National Assembly
and his comments over the Office of the Prince of Wales. Not yet Dafydd!
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Just what I thought!
Deafening silence.
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49. At 9:27pm on 20 Oct 2008, legendaryavocet wrote:
Full marks for loyalty to your Assembly masters, Lyn Thomas.
Can you explain what you mean by that?
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