Exposed Mark 2
The list of those 'exposed' by the Icelandic banking crisis grows:
Ceredigion County Council: £5.4 million
Gwynedd Council: £4million
Caerphilly Council: 'unknown but thought to be substantial'
Gwent Police Authority: £1 million and a familiar story, that they could see serious problems looming but couldn't withdraw their money when the bank's credit rating dropped below the Authority's 'acceptable minimum' because conditions of the loan prevented early repayment.
And cover from the Treasury for all of those exposed? What are the chances? As the list grows and grows, the chances of that warm blanket of guaranteed cover must be getting slimmer.
And I wonder just how long it's going to take the SNP to tweak this particular take on the 'Benefits of Independence' on their website:
Success
Independence would enable Scotland to become more successful. Other small European countries have higher levels of economic growth and living standards than Scotland. Independence gives those nations the powers to shape their country for the better. Scotland could have this too.
Off our east coast lies Norway, the second most prosperous country in the world. Off our west coast lies Ireland, the fourth most prosperous country in the world. Off our north coast lies Iceland, the sixth most prosperous country in the world.
These independent countries represent an arc of prosperity - and Scotland has every bit as much potential as any of them.
UPDATE
Add Caerphilly Council to the list. They'd invested a total of £15million with two of the stricken banks for just three months ... "just like that" as T Cooper used to say, whose timing was rather better than the council's it seems.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
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Remember Helen Mary Jones's famous article of a few weeks ago when she used Iceland as the example to show that Wales could survive as an Independent nation. Even as she wrote the article the Economist was pointing out the difficulties facing the Icelandic economy. The recent draft Assembly budget is the only the beginning of difficult times ahead for the politicians down the Bay. Since 1999 they haven't really had to make any difficult decisions as the massive increases in public expenditure from the UK government have been used to introduce so called free services. In the new era of public expenditure cutbacks Assembly politicians of all political persuasions will have to up their game in order to persuade a sceptical electorate that scarce resources are being well spent .
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The economic crisis is global in nature. To hair Iceland's banking crisis as a reason why Scotland would not be successful as an independent nation is a red herring. Iceland will recover.
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It is revealed today that several Scottish local authorities have got their fingers burned in the current Icelandic banking troubles. This leads the BBC's Scottish political editor to pen a disjointed little blog into which he pastes part of a totally unrelated item from a Welsh political party's Web site without quotation marks, relevant background information or any form of explanation of what he thinks he is up to? I think not. Brian Taylor's blog is not conducted in that sort of way. What are you trying to do, Ms Powys? Stir up interest in your blog, which is hardly what one would call busy or much frequented by a bevy of knowledgeable and sophisticated posters, as BT's one is?
As someone who is neither a journalist nor a member of a political party, allow me to point out to your doubtless bemused readers that the Scottish National Party proposes independent Scottish membership of a substantial political and economic union with a central bank far more powerful and well resourced than is the much depleted treasury of the decrepit, antiquated and anachronistic British union, the treasury of which is heavily reliant on borrowing and on income from Scotland to perform the various rescue operations that it is currently engaged in.
When Scotland goes independent so as to be free to join the eurozone as an independent member of the European Union, the UK Treasury is going to be financially embarrassed. Is that what you were trying to say, as you seem to be saying that it is on the point of becoming financially embarrassed already?
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#3 neacalmacdhonnchaidh
"..the Scottish National Party proposes independent Scottish membership of a substantial political and economic union with a central bank far more powerful and well resourced than is the much depleted treasury of the decrepit, antiquated and anachronistic British union, the treasury of which is heavily reliant on borrowing and on income from Scotland to perform the various rescue operations that it is currently engaged in."
Well said.
I've already commented a number of times that this blog is inadequate. It attracts few contributors. This issue needs to be addressed by the BBC, and soon, as Wales is not getting a fair deal.
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I notice that those who accuse Betsan of bias towards Plaid are awfully quiet on this post....
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Betsan the Brit? - She does try to be fair but a pretty cheap shot !!
(P.S> Betsan I used our fifteen quid to commission a poll from YouGov. They managed Tudweiliog - results Plaid -56%, Llais Gwynedd - 43% and that retired Colonel in number 16 fancies UKIP......can we extrapolate??)
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As an Englishman living on mainland Europe, I rarely stray into Welsh affairs but the exposure of Welsh local authorities to the Icelandic bank melt down is truly astonishing. I notice Jenny Randerson, AM is looking to Westminster to make good any losses. Why? Who put the money into Icelandic banks in the first place? And, by the way, we are constantly being told how strapped for cash local authorities are. What on earth are Caerphilly Council doing sitting on 15 million in the first place? It is supposed to be working for the community isn't it, not lolling around in the bank. Now you want UK tax payers all over the planet to bail you out?
OK, you were unlucky. No reasonable person expects a bank to go 'belly up' overnight but that really is not the point. Councils which stashed money away which was intended for local services should explain the the electorate why it was not at the next available opportunity, not have their backsides rescued by the rest of us.
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#7 threnodio
"Councils which stashed money away which was intended for local services should explain the the electorate why it was not at the next available opportunity, not have their backsides rescued by the rest of us."
Go away and do some research on local authority finance before you make facile comments.
Have you also made your comment on Taylor's & Robinson's blogs? Scottish, and even more English local authorities have invested in these banks too.
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#8 - brynt41
No because there is as yet no relevant thread on Taylor and Robinson. As to my 'facile' comment which you so fail to address, how can hard pressed local authorities have large sums available for such investment? I do have a knowledge of local authority finance and I know as well as you do that it does not all come in at once so there is only one point in the cycle at which local authorities should be carrying a significant surplus, the end of the financial year if there has been an underspend on capital projects. If that occurs, the balance should be carried forward to the following year or released for other purposes, not salted away. If my criticisms apply to English and Scottish LAs, I will be glad to place them.
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Caerphilly - £15m, the responsibility rests with the leadership.
Time to resign, poor judgement putting all one's eggs in one basket.
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Trying to make cheap political capital from decisions taken on the professional advice of finance officers.
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As a lifelong Plaid Cymru supporter and branch officer, I am looking forward with glee to the day that Adam Price starts eating humble pie as regards his perpetual drone about 'small nations' . Iceland is stone broke,
and Plaid must stop the obsession about'small is beautiful' . This Leopold Kohr based tenant has filled every one of our manifestos for nigh on four decades. The size of a nation is irrelevant. What is important is its freedom and its government's judgement. It seems to me that Welsh councils have been snared in a terrible trap due to poor advice by Westminster . I cannot imagine Ceredigion has an awful lot of international banking gurus in its offices, so they've just followed the Pied Piper into financial oblivion.
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brynt41, your ..........
"Trying to make cheap political capital from decisions taken on the professional advice of finance officers."
Tell the taxpayers that 15 million Pounds Sterling is cheap political capital. Advice is guidance offered, in the case of Caerphilly, taken. Caerphilly chose not to spread risk.
I reiterate, "Time to resign, poor judgement putting all one's eggs in one basket."
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First in response to the poster who questioned why Wales is so badly exposed - Is it?
The latest figures I saw said that we had around 50 million at risk compared to around 700 million for UK as a whole. That tells me that we are broadly in line with UK exposure.
Still not a nice place to be though.
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Second in response to people who make stupid statements like why is Council X sitting on the money instead of spending it on services.... the councils recieve their money in block grants and in order to keep costs down, they place this money on deposit until it is needed. This keeps costs down and you would complain bitterely if they did not
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Third a question to Stonemason - and I dont know the answer -
How much money did Caerphilly council have on deposit - did 15% represent part of their money or all of it?
In other words, were all of their eggs in the same basket?? If they were then heads should roll. If not then they might just have been unlucky.
And before anyone turns this into an attack on Plaid run council, was investment decision made by salaried council officer or by political appointee - and has there been any change in such decisions since council changed control??
I ask same question to Neath Port Talbot Council and others ????
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previous post - 15 million not 15%...
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penddu,
your "How much money did Caerphilly council have on deposit - did 15% represent part of their money or all of it?"
I have asked the question of Lindsay Whittle leader of the administration.
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Anyone who argues that the Assembly or the UK government should bail out the councils who foolishly invested taxpayers in Icelandic banks should read the letter in today's Guardian from Professors Buiter and Sibert. They stress that by last April it was clear that the Icelandic banking system was in serious trouble. The Icelandic banks were offering high rates precisely because they were in difficulties. This isn't the first time that local government has wasted taxpayers money on speculative financial schemes. Some of us remember the BCCI fiasco and the loan swops scandal where at least one council in Wales was only saved from bankruptcy because a judge ruled that the loan swops were not legal. Any Director of Finance who recommended investments after April should be dismissed and if the politicians knew as well they should resign. It's about time that we introduced some accountabilty into public life.
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penddu, I have just received a reply from the leader of Caerphilly Council, it reads ...
......... John
I will get back to you when I am in a position to do so.The Council Investment portfolio is the fund you refer too.Whilst the amount is large it is by no means placing our portfolio under any threat as best as anyone can assure with the world trends as they are.
Lindsay .........
It seems that we can sleep easily in our beds, at least in Caerphilly, notice how our councillors respond, mostly we have a good council.
"Benedek", your .....
"It's about time that we introduced some accountability into public life."
I shall do so in Caerphilly, once the dust has settled. But I will dwell on the rules of risk as applied in our administration.
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TheStonemason should read today's Telegraph. Councils employ financial advisors to advise on where to invest their money. Arlingclose adviced its clients as long ago as 2006 not to invest in Icelandic banks. They also put this advice to future clients when they bid for further work. The key questions that should be asked in both Neath Port Talbot and Caerphilly is why did they ignore the 2004 Treasury advice and put so much money in one bank and secondly who advised them to do this. If they employed outside advisers they should be dismissed. If it was based on officer advice the officers concerned should be looking for new employment.
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Benedek, your "TheStonemason should read today's Telegraph."
It was in yesterdays "Times", important yes, unfortunately hindsight is so often used by the media as the commodity for criticism rather than improvement.
I am sure, being under constant scrutiny, Caerphilly Borough will be publishing the facts surrounding the large loss. I am also sure a report of the events leading to the loss will be produced in short order, after which actions might be taken, a lot will depend on timeline.
After the post mortem, it will be time to take action.
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Are Dafydd Elis-Thomas' remarks about redefining the role of the Prince of Wales going to be ignored on this blog? Like it or not, its a political issue, and a hot one here in Wales. Perhaps a discussion on it in this blog would put the BBC in an invidious position with the House of Windsor and the British establishment? So, indeed, why should the unionist BBC invite one.
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I watched Newswatch this morning, and it was made clear there that the remarks of the political editors on these blogs are carefully monitored by the BBC centrally. Its clear that certain sensitive issues may well be avoided, or not allowed. Its not just the contributions that are heavily moderated, and neither is it a matter of 'balance'. It may well be that the role of royalty here in Wales is not up for discussion, on the basis that the issue is 'above' politics.
I beg to disagree.
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brynt41, your "I watched Newswatch" .....
If you break the "House Rules", you are moderated out, I broke the rule about web links once, I made two in a post, one to a Plaid Cymru document and the other to a BBC news item on the BBC web site.
The post was allowed with the Plaid reference moderated out, the BBC reference was ok, it was "It's a No", my post was No 25.
I would be surprised if there was any overt censorship, though it could be argued censorship is applied because it is Betsan who sets the topic. Personally, I can live with the rules/moderation and mostly enjoy the blogs. If censorship became a real issue contributors would go away.
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My post #23 has been 'referred to the moderators' because I referred to Dafydd Elis-Thomas' remarks about redefining the role of the Prince of Wales and the fact that it hasn't been mentioned on this blog by the BBC's political editor. Maybe it isn't a topic open for discussion on a BBC forum?
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brynt41, I think you might have created the topic .....
As a Unionist I found Dafydd Elis-Thomas remarks to be confrontational, the constitution is the constitution, and the Queen is Head of State, much more satisfactory than anyone in the Senedd.
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My question was concerned with it being raised by the BBC in the blog itself, as a topic, not by a contributor, such as myself.
"..the Queen is Head of State"
That is a factual remark that cannot be disputed. But as a republican I would dispense with the monarchy, and all the trappings associated with it, regardless of whether I was Welsh or not.
As far as Wales is concerned, imo, the monarchy has even less relevance. I view the PoW (not the holder, personally) as an imposition on Wales, an insult, knowing the history of the title.
DE-T's remarks, obviously for me, don't go the distance. It would be a brave act to attempt to have an investiture ceremony on the lines of the 1969 one, as the popularity of the monarchy has declined markedly, throughout the UK, not only in Wales.
There are some nationalists who would favour re-establishing a Welsh monarchy after independence, from among, say, the (Welsh) landed gentry. For me that would be utter stupidity, as I find the entire idea anachronistic, and class-ridden.
In the case of William, if it ever happens, my bet is that it will be announced after the event, such is the irrelevance of the Windsors to a modern Wales.
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brynt41, your "........... would favour re-establishing a Welsh monarchy after independence, from among, say, the (Welsh) landed gentry."
If there were a constitutional shift away from a "Royal Head of State", I would prefer an elected Presidential replacement, the ability to remove and replace the unsuitable, e.g. Nixon in the USA, is very important. But I would see this in the context of the UK.
The PoW issue, I feel, is irrelevant as the post holder is always the next in line to the monarch, the ceremony would be mummery.
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As long ago as 2006 only 30 cents in every loan issued by Icelandic banks was backed by deposits. By then the main Icelandic banks were already struggling to finance themselves. As for Iceland itself which Nationalists in both Scotland and Wales described as part of the Arc of Prosperity, the average Icelandic household has debts equalling 213% of disposable income. We also now know that the Icelandic government was recently given a presentation by academics based in the UK that their banking system was on the verge of collapse.Ordinary investors might have the excuse that they could not be expected to be financial experts. This excuse wouldn't wash when it comes to local government. Local authorities were given more freedom with regard to investments in 2004 but the Treasury still urged them to look at security as well as income earning when making these decisions. Frankly the decision by Caerphilly and Neath Port Talbot to put so much money into such a risky investment should lead to some really searching questions being asked by councillors in both authorities about the quality of financial advice that they have received.
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In Washington for the G7 summit, the Finance Minister declared today that the banks of Europe are somewhat under-capitalized and, therefore, in need of some injection of state funding . . . except for our banks, which, not suffering from under-capitalization and being, in fact, among the most highly capitalized in the eurozone, are not currently in need of state funding and do not wish it. Such funding, however, would be available, Ms Lagarde added, if it came to be required.
Do not you not think, Ms Powys, that many Scots wish that, instead of being in the English boat, they were in the French one referred to above? As the English one is sinking, why would they want to stay in it when all they have to do is leave and get into a boat of their own, taking care to tie it up alongside the sounder French one in the European Union and, indeed, in the eurozone, in accordance with the far-sighted and prudent policy of their independentist party, the SNP.
The demise of the Reaganomic Anglo-American form of cowboy capitalism, which is not lamented on this side of the Channel, is an ideal opportunity for them to put their house in order and restore Scottish banking to the condition which it was in before it became contaminated through immersion in the toxic-debt economy of their southern neighbours and their American cousins.
Political fall-out? When the fat hits the fan, there will be fall-out all right. Whatever you may wish, the Scots may not sit there twiddling their thumbs as offensively irrational and increasingly hysterical anglo-unionists take them down with them on the pretext of saving their bacon. They have the means to save themselves and secure their future, as they know. Many of them also realize that, if they do not take advantage of this, they may find that no one actually cares very much about their bacon except themselves. But what can they do to help themselves with the pathetic levers of economic and political control that Scotland has in England, as we call it, the United Kingdom, as you call it?
The other day the electronic display in Times Square that records the mounting US national debt went as bust as the US economy. One trillion too many. The mind-boggling figure for the US national debt now exceeds the capacity of the machine to display it. The Anglo-American empire is indeed in deep doo-doo, and we are now entering an era of economic and political upheaval. This is Scotland's opportunity. The Scots would be wise to make the most of it.
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Benedek, I am not privy to "the quality of financial advice that they [Caerphilly] have received." No doubt a public statement will be forthcoming.
Europrogressive
If Scotland had already separated from the United Kingdom, would a Scottish Government have been able to offer support to HBOS and the Royal Bank of Scotland in the way the British Government has? Or would Scotland have gone the way of Iceland?
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Anybody aware of just how attractive were the rates on offer by the Icelandic bank?
In the last year or so, fixed interest rates for 6 months or/1/2 or3 years were up to 7.01%.in the UK.
Just how much higher were the Icelandic rates?
And didn't any of our simple-minded councils smell a rotten cod?
I suspect this mess will finally bring about the end of the council tax. It will have to be set so high that the number of "can't pay won't pay" householders will rise to such an extent that the whole system will crumble...just like a rotten cod in fact!!!!
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During February the Icelandic Central Bank had an interest rate of 13.75 percent.
February 10 this year and a Times report was headlined "Time to bale out of Iceland?". It continued ........
"ADVISERS are urging British savers to limit their investments in Icelandic savings accounts to £35,000, amid fears that some of the country’s biggest banks are headed for strife."
During May a price comparison website was urging customers to switch to the Icelandic bank "Icesave". This particular report included the following .....
"It's a welcome situation for savers. After all, I suspect that at least some Fools are busy trying to build a ‘rainy day' safety cushion in case the economic climate continues to deteriorate."
Now the two reports above relate to domestic accounts, but I'm sure commercial advice was similar.
So your question remains Noah_sembly, "And didn't .......... councils smell a rotten cod?"
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I would love to see council tax be abolished and replaced with something sensible like a local income tax, however I don't think this crisis will cause this. Seems to be a UK wide phenomenon rather than specific to any councils. Since so many are involved perhaps we need to look more at some of the officials, why were they giving this advice - btw this is not a party political issue, everyone seems to have been burnt. I applaud councils for trying to get the best deal for our money, that is sensible - but the question remains what sort term investments could have been withdrawn and at what point did the advisers become aware that now would be a good time to pull the investment? I suspect that this is something that has to be sorted on a case by case basis.
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"Local authorities poured almost £100m into Icelandic banks for nine months after being warned about the risks of investing in them." So say The Times today.
It seems our Councils might have a lot of explaining to do, particularly since Moody’s cut ratings on the main Icelandic banks during January/February and Standard & Poor’s raised further doubts about Icelandic Banks during April.
Twitching might not just be an ornithological inclination in this sceptred Isle.
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I should also like to refer in passing to the issue or non issue of the coming anniversay of the investiture of PoW some 40 years ago. In discussing the current economic climate and the certainty of a recession and possibility of depression with friends the aforementioned issue has never arisen. Why did BBC Wales think it worth raising at this time and the involvement of LORD ELLIS THOMAS who I understand still represents a party that wishes to see the break up of the UK. In the interview LET referred to the two previous investitures as "stunts" which as an english speaking welsh man found offensive and unworthy. Why was he interviewed and not our illustrious leader.The monarchy have done my working class family no harm and am proud to see the Queen when she represents this country abroad and the Prince of Wales also does good work. The nationalists forget that the Prince of Wales when in Tokyo many years ago encouraged the man who ran SONY to set up their European base in Wales which they ultimately did which gave thousands of jobs to people in the Bridgend area. The current arrangement where the nationalists whose long term aim is the destruction of the UK are able to be part of "government" and at the same time hold their views. I understand a lot of labour people feel exactly the same. We seem to have reached the position whereby to paraphase President Johnson "The camel is inside the tent "p........g out ,but also outside the tent"p g" in. We need a vote on "independance" and including my children and all others who live and work in England . The BBC Wales needs to understand that they give far too much coverage and prominence to the nationalists who comprise a small part of the political views particularly in south east wales .
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Why should you take offence as an English-speaking Welshman? DET's comments have nothing whatsoever to do with language. I am also an English speaking Welshman from SE Wales, and beleive that the monarchy is an outdated anachronism at best. In the case pf Prince Charles, he has no constitutional role in Wales and never has.
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I’m not sure that decisions regarding the Office of the Prince of Wales should be decided by the Presiding Officer, who is supposed to be an ‘impartial’ speaker within the National Assembly. He is obviously promoting his own nationalist ideals. If he wants to talk about recent 'stunts' in the history of Wales - what about the relatively new flag and the National anthem. This is a constitutional matter that should be decided by the people of Wales in a referendum, at the same time as we vote on further powers for the Assembly. Let’s have it quickly!
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With regard to 38 I suppose it is the fact that the "nationalistic" agenda is being give far more prominence than is actually reflected in the population at large. It is true that a monarchical system has no logical relevance,however its what weve got and a Presidential system with "politico"does not bring universal joy. The other matter referred to by the Presiding Officer was that the role of Secretary of State (As long aswe have one)) came as a bit of a shock. Does he know something that the rest of us dont.We are part of the United Kingdom and all the key decisions are taken in Westminster and it is vital that we retain a strong voice and representation there.It looks like the "deal"between Rhodri and Plaid will get us a referendum on more powers for the "mickey mouse" body in Cardiff and at the same time we should be asked if we want to see it abolished.if its possible for Yorkshire to manage its affairs without a tier of government above local government why does Wales?We managed before 1997 and could do so again.
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Whatever happened to three Plaid nominations to the Lords, including Dafydd Wigley? Weren't their names put forward last year after the party conference?
Its a bit sickening to see Mandelson being inducted today, post haste, to an unelected House which has a veto over all the Welsh Assembly's requests for legislative competence.
I'm afraid that Plaid made a strategic error by entering a coalition with Labour in Cardiff Bay. The argument that 'stable government' was needed was a bit thin. Sorry Ieuan, but I don't see your gamble paying off. Labour is in charge with Brown pulling the strings. Even if the Commission reports a majority in favour of a Welsh Parliament, Welsh Labour MPs will wreck any chance of a Yes vote in a referendum
Plaid should have known that Labour cannot be trusted to deliver on anything. The LibDems lost out by supporting Labour in their first term.
Mandelson's return to government, and rapid elevation to the Lords indicates how little Plaid counts when push comes to shove. You're bolstering a party which will treat you with contempt when the time comes.
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As far as I am aware, DET was asked his opinion and he gave it - just like any other politician would.
While I agree that we should have referenda to agree on major constituional changes such as a step change in the Assembly status - but there is no change involved with Prince Charles status in Wales, because currently he has none!!!!
Constitutionally he is no more than the heir apparent to the English throne, and upon his succession he will have right of Royal Assent to Assembly Powers - but at the moment he has no powers at all. Unless you can prove otherwise?
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Still waiting for someone to tell me what Prince Charles constitutional role is with regards to Wales........hmm??
Charles - HUH - what is he good for - absolutley Nothing - say it again......
etc
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snoutinthetrough:
Elis Thomas is an elected politician, and the PoW is a hereditary title, based on a monarchical system.
Your assertion that being against the imposition of a monarchy on Wales is an offence to you, an English-speaking Welshman, sounds strange to me... er ... an English-speaking Welshman.
The monarchy has no place in a meritocracy - it don;t matter what language you speak, but that seems to be self-evident. Elected politicians, by virtue of being elected, do. Thast too seems self-evident
You seem to want people who disagree with you to be silenced.
According to recent polls, the majority woudl favour more powers for the Assembly.
Good. The Assembly has done more in its short time and with its limited powers to develop a specific, Welsh, egalitarian agenda than we had under 50 years of Tory misrule and NuLab contempt.
Thanks to the Assembly the kids I teach get free breakfasts, my aged parents can travel on buses free and don;t have the indignity of fumbling for change to pay for hospital car parks, we don;t have stupid school testing, and we have free prescriptions to help the thousands of peopel in ill health. More powers!
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As we arestill a United Kingdom and have a constitutional monarchy that works alongside a democraticall y elected government it isnt worth the nationalists getting all hot and bothered. I go back to the 1970's when trade union militancy almost destroyed this country and we were relying on the IMF to fund the public services in this country. The Thatcher years saw the creation of wealth and the principle of "sound money. The miners strike (my Grandfather was a miner) was led by a revolutionary communist who wanted to overthrow democracy and the welsh miners were used in that futile attempt to keep pits open. I also remember that the Labour party shut more pits in the 1960's that were closed in the 1980's.The closing of factories etc has proceeded apace under the WAG and in the coming economic storm we will see it intensify due to the treasury being bankrupted. With regard to the "freebies" given by WAG it seems to me to be the responsibility of parents to feed their children and not the state or other taxpayers. The "sick" were largely covered by the "targeted"free prescriptions so the blanketed cover for everybody is wasteful of scarce resources. The same applies to free bus passes /car parking in hospitals. The idea that the inception of Assembly has improved peoples "confidence" cleartly is a joke. If somebody is that lacking in confidence that they need flawed institutions to "puff "them up they need to get a life. In conclusion the vast expenditure by WAG is by virtue of the funding (Barnett) from central government . In addition we have had the subsidies from Europe which we will have to see if they have been invested wisely. In the 1980's/90's the welsh economy grew along side the UK economy which left a large and increasing public surplus in 1997. Its all gone and look out for tax increases and public expenditure cuts.Looks like the 1970's all over and back to the IMF.
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#39 legendaryavocet said:
"...what about the relatively new flag and the National anthem."
Are you suggesting that we scrap both of these in favour of the Union Flag (on which Wales is unrepresented) and 'God Save the Queen' (of England)?
The people of Wales would be up in arms at any attempt to do so. A century ago, the English establishment wanted Wales to have 'God Bless the Prince of Wales' as its anthem, but it was rejected by the people outright, and is rarely heard nowadays. Most Welsh people (regardless of party affiliation) are happy with our flag and anthem.
If and when Scotland exits (the UK) there will have to be a new national flag, and a new name for what was the UK, or the rump of it. Both will be very difficult questions for our friends across the border in Westminster to address. It couldn't be called the UK any more, or Great Britain. I suppose it could be called 'Britain and NI', but that would mean that the Scots had taken the 'great' out of it.. hehe. I hope that Wales exits soon afterwards, but if not, how about 'Walengni' as a name for it. I like the ring of it, hehe.
I wouldn't be happy having the Dragon in one corner of the 'English' flag either. Its all going to pose a dilemma. Oh dear!
As for the poor old PoW. Someone asked if he has a constitutional role. Personally I wonder if he has any role. Supposedly, the UK has an unwritten constitution, but no-one really knows what it is or what it contains, as successive governments have ridden roughshod over it.
All I know is that the last Welsh Prince (Llywelyn ap Gruffydd) was killed, by the English, over 700 years ago, and Edward I named his baby son as the first 'English' Prince of Wales, which then became a tradition down the centuries that Wales was to continue having an imposed (foreign)prince. To me, as a Welshman, that is an insult. Simply because it happened centuries ago doesn't make it right. Wales has been treated as a conquered territory for most of the last 700 years.
Since 1832, with some elected Parliamentary representation in an English dominated Parliament, Wales has played a minor role and has suffered, economically, culturally, socially and linguistically as a result. We couldn't even be offered a legislative Parliament in 1997, indicating that we were considered inferior to the Scots. Even NI (with half Wales' population) had its own legislative Parliament after 1922, and before the troubles began. Soon NI's Assembly will have more powers than the Welsh Assembly, when justice and policing are devolved.
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I wonder if I might just be permitted to draw your attention, in view of the reference in this thread to the "arc of prosperity", to Ben_Lomond's #234 of the Blether with Brian blog thread entitled 'Taxpayer should take note of bail-out'.
That post contains an analysis of the present condition of the "arc of prosperity" by the Irish economist Marc Coleman, which the population of Scotland is currently devouring with interest.
Briefly, Mr Coleman takes the view (and argues his case cogently) that independent Ireland within the EU and the eurozone is much better placed to survive the economic impact of the global financial crisis than are either dependent Scotland or dependent Wales.
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brynt41, wrote .....
"Simply because it happened centuries ago doesn't make it right. Wales has been treated as a conquered territory for most of the last 700 years."
To carry such a "Great Wrong" for seven centuries. Is this the basis for wishing separation from Britain.
"To feel part of a conquered people", I would suggest speaking to people from all corners of Britain, and ask them to describe their existence, you will find little difference to your own. Our politicians in Wales are exactly the same as those from all parts of Britain, Price PC MP is no different to any other in Westminster, each wish to impose on you their vision, their will. You are treated no different to any other person in Britain.
As for these "Great Wrongs", they are bad memories from bygone days that cannot be altered.
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Betsan:
It is true, that Iceland's financial crisis had many affects on many countries....
~Dennis Junior~
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