Leeks and all
Scotland has one and now, so have we: our very own coat of arms.
It's been approved by the Queen and signed by a man with a title Hywel Dda - who was around when the last made in Wales, applying only to Wales law was passed - would be impressed by: The Garter King of Arms.
If all goes according to plan and the Privy Council approve the first Welsh measure, the NHS Redress Measure - this afternoon, then the Royal Badge will see the light of day for the first time.
I doubt you'll be discussing it around the water cooler but for those of you who can't wait a moment longer, here it is, leeks and all.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~00~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
I think it looks great! The Arms of the Princely Aberffraw family representing Wales!
Complain about this comment
I sincerely hope that this a wind up.
This is royalist propoganda.
Utter disgrace, in fact an insult to the intelligence of our people.
Complain about this comment
I'm not really sure I understand your second paragraph.
I'm still hoping to get into the House of Lords, so that I can have a coat of arms of my very own...
http://lordsoftheblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/coat-of-arms/
What would you have on your coat of arms, Ms Powys ?
Complain about this comment
C'mon Betsan, give us a proper blazon of the badge! And I think it's a 'badge', not a coat of arms (heraldry experts may, of couse, contradict me) - it has no supporters, for a start, nor a 'crest'. There has been a Royal Badge for Wales since at least the 1950s, which was used by the old Welsh Office until 1999 and the Assembly for a couple of years after that. So perhaps it's not such a big step...
Complain about this comment
You are right TownieTaff, it does look more like a badge to me too.
But I still like it.
I dont yet speak Welsh, what does it say?
Complain about this comment
-Drachenfyre-
The motto is 'Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad', 'True am I to my country' - a line you should know from the national anthem!
Complain about this comment
TownieTaff,
I am an American of Welsh extraction.
My family name is Llewellyn. The Llewellyns came from Wales to Knoxville, Tennessee, via the Welsh Track in Pa. Though now I live in Norfolk, Virginia.
Hehe, Ive never sang or knew the Welsh national anthem.
Complain about this comment
It has the Crown at the top of the 'badge' so it means nothing to a Republican like me.
Complain about this comment
Well I am not surprised that it uses the arms of Gwynedd, somewhat surprised that there is representation of Ireland, Scotland and England in addition to Wales (why I wonder).
The crown was an inevitability and I suppose that using the arms of Glyn Dwr would be a touch provocative.
So what is this badge to be used for? I understand that Wales doesn't get a seal until it gets full legislative power - and that will be attached to any act of the Assembly. So does this badge act as a stand in on the Assembly Measures?
I am sure the heraldic nuances will go over the heads of most of us. But surely this is again a confirmation of the second class nature of our legislature?
Complain about this comment
These are not the arms of Owain IV Glyndwr. These are the Aberffraw family arms. There is a difference. Look at the positions of the lions in the Aberffraw shield above, and the Glendwr arms. Owain IV quartered his arms to look like the Aberffraw arms, partially to associate his rule with that of the Aberffraw family of Gwynedd.
The Aberffraw Arms are with the lions guardant, as displayed above and first associated with Llywelyn I (the Great), and used as the first Principality of Wales arms with Dafydd I and Llywelyn II.
Owain's arms are the quartered arms of Powys and Deheubarth rampant (that is with the lions on their hind legs, arms outstretched in an attack formation). The Mathrafal House of Powys was a red lion rampant on a yellow field. The Deheubarth arms was the opposite, a yellow lion rampant on a red field. Owain was a direct decendant of both the Princely House Dinefwr and the cadet house of Mathrafal. In point of fact, Owain was also decendent from the Aberffraw too, but distantly.
Today, the direct decendent to the Aberffraw claim of Prince of Wales would most likely be Sir David Watkin Williams-Wynn, 11th Baronet of Wynnstay, who would be Dafydd IV.
Complain about this comment
'Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad' is that supposed to be the queen saying that? How ridiculous. The English royal family try to worm their way into every part of our lives. Whose idea was this anyway? We should be capable of being responsible for ourselves without having to kowtow to these anachronistic parasites. If only we lived in a democracy, it wouldn't get my vote.
Complain about this comment
TownieTaff
Look at it again, it is a coat of arms. The Welsh leeks and the Tudor Roses form the supporters, so it is an official coat of arms. It took me a moment to see that myself, because usually suporters are "grander" wih animals.
Complain about this comment
Wait until Donny Touhig hears about this!
This is not "advancing Labour socialism" (eh...when was that?) or contributing one iota to Don's "Save my Parl. Exs"... for our miner's aspirational sons campaign.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was reduced to meeting the Pope in scuffed brown (work) boots!
Oh, the shame of Wales.
"DAFT"
Complain about this comment
Perhaps "legs akimbo with bulldog rampant" would better describe our current position.
Complain about this comment
i like the new badge for wales...
Complain about this comment
Well it looks nice. However on closer inspection... roses? a thistle? The thistle may be an honorary memeber of our badge but the roses... that's pushing it. The Tudors may have been 'Welsh' but they certainly didn't do us much good.
And if Wales had a 'royal' seal it should be the seal of the last of the Welsh princes. And why do we need this anway? Can't we have the Assembly dragon? Or if you must have a royalist emblem then let it be Llywelyn Fawr's coat of arms, or Gyndwr's. What idiot came up with this thing no one has ever seen before?
Complain about this comment
Well, -osian-, the Tudors were decendents both from the Princely House of Dinefwr of Deheubarth, and from the Seneschals (sort of prime minister) of Llywelyn I the Great and Llywelyn II the last.
Additionally, with the Tudors, Welshmen were able to actually participate in government more fully, and were appointed to government positions... this after previously been banned since the Edwardian Conquest and the Statute of Rhuddlan in the 13th century.
Queen Elizibeth II, who knew Welsh from her Welsh nurse, is credited with the survival of the Welsh language when she authorized the printing of the Bible in Welsh. She was concerned about promoting protastantism in Wales, but the printing of the bible in Welsh helped to modernize and standardize the language and bring it into the modern era. Had she not done this, it is plausable the language would not have survived into the modern era as everything was printed in other languages.
The Shield itself, as I have stated before, is the arms of the Aberffraw family of Gwynedd, and first associated with Llywelyn I the Great, who according to Professor John Davies was de jure first Prince of Wales after he accepted the vassalage of all other Welsh lords at the Treaty of Aberdyfi in 1216. The Aberffraw family claimed primacy over other Welsh lords as the senior branch of decendents from Rhodri the Great. (The Current heir to this claim is Sir David Watkins Williams-Wynn, 11th Baronet of Wynnstay)
So all aspects of this arms are all firmly rooted in Wales. From the Arms of Aberffraw, to the Tudor Roses, to the Welsh Thistle, to the motto.
This is a very good coat of arms for Wales.
Complain about this comment
er, I ment Queen Elizibeth I!!!!! lol. Not the II!
Complain about this comment
The dismissiveness some Welsh people are of their own unique cultural and historic heritage is sometimes so sad. It is the norm among european nation states to celebrate their history within their heraldry. Countries which were once kingdoms/principalities but are now republics such as Albania, Estonia, Germany, Portugal, Austria, Croatia, Finland, Georgia, Lithuania etc... use the arms once used by royal rulers of theirs in times past.
It is a salute to the endurance, legitimacy and continuity of their people and a recognition of the enormous contribution the ancient rulers whose arms they were to the creation and survival of the nation itself.
The arms of the royal house of Aberffraw are entirely appropriate for anyone with even an eon of understanding for the Welsh people. It is they who were the first acknowledged princes of Wales and vis a vis were the first men to gain international recognition of the Welsh as a nation and as a state.
The blustering from some based on mindless dogma is simply ignorance.
Complain about this comment
PS - should Wales emerge as a socialist republic then perhaps a red star could be put in the place of the crown??
Complain about this comment
Don't kid yourself, James Godalming. A nationalist dictatorship, more like. This country discarded its socialism the moment it prioritised the Welsh language over poverty. I personally think a gravy train would make the perfect blazon.
Complain about this comment
I trust the beeb will allow us to debate this...
Are any of the countries I mentioned which use historic arms as a part of their national symbolism and visual identity presently a nationalist dictatorship?
I for one cannot understand how Llywelyn's own arms could ever be seen as un-Welsh or in some sense tretcherous.
Personally the idea of an empty modern "logo" for a newly independent country like some recently created unitary authority or an olympic logo very un-state like and totally un-inspiring.
People should also consider the purpose and authority of these arms. The facts of the matter are that the college of arms was asked by the welsh assembly to provide a badge for them to use, within their jurisdiction this is what the college has done. We live in a kingdom and for as long as Wales is part of it these decisions are approved ultimately by the Queen.
Lets be clear, are the opponents of this badge most vexed by the presence of the royal crown on it, the arms of Llywelyn, the border with the tudor roses or the crown of the sovereign? We can then discuss those parts of the arms?
Complain about this comment
Harry - I don't see the state that you are claiming. As far as I can see the current administration is considerably more socialist than its predecessor. Some measures to help strengthen the Welsh language in conjunction with a wide range of measures to improve the lot of the people of Wales does not mean a that the language is a higher priority than the material wellbeing of the people.
Back to the issue of the badge.
I well understand the use of the arms of the the princes of Aberffraw. I am unsure why we need thistles and roses and shamrocks. And I think I'd prefer the arms of Glyn Dwr - as the arms of Aberffraw have been appropriated by Charles as Prince of Wales.
I well understand the continuity of symbolism and the legitimacy implied by the use of symbols. I would also point out that the University of Wales press use a treatment of the Arms of Aberffraw/Gwynedd as their logo. It is in danger, like the dragon its self of being overused.
Complain about this comment
It seems that the leek, the rose, the shamrock and the thistle are intended to signify the constituent countries of the UK...
I don't understand why they have to be on this Welsh badge though. I would also argue that the device surmounting the badge should have been a Welsh coronet or maybe even the Cross of Neith.
The debate between the relative merits of the arms of Aberffraw or Glyndwr (Powys/Deheubarth) probably boil down to how people feel personally about their respective histories and associations; the arms of Aberffraw are mainly associated with Llywelyn II (ap Gruffydd) and mark a very dark period in Welsh history and his own, eventual but very certain death. The arms of Glyndwr remember a time of spectacular gains and the legend of immortality. On the other hand, the arms of Llywelyn recall the last time Wales was recognised as having sovereignty and cordial external relations, where as the arms of Glyndwr are associated with a much more aggressive nationalism and widespread destruction. I would go for those of Aberffraw even though they have been used since by the (english) "Prince of Wales".
Complain about this comment
Maybe I cant see the close up on my terminal, but I dont see the shamrock on the Coat of Arms. I see only items significant to Wales. Those are Tudor roses... and Welsh leeks.
I do greatly agree that the 'Llywelyn Coronet' and (Celtic) Cross of Neath should surmount the shield.
I think the Arms of Aberffraw are the most appropriate for use myself, and represents 'taking back' native Welsh imagry and traditions.
One other comment. There are many .... many ... Welsh nationalists that whish for an independent Wales and a Welsh constitutional monarchy. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Almost all of Plaid Cymru founding members advocated for it... including... preshaps surprisingly to some... the socialist and leftest Plaid member D.J. Davies, who is best known for his writtings on socialism and the Welsh economy once Wales became independent. He wrote in 1953, and again in 1958, advocating for the promotion of a Welsh gentry family to the Royal Family of Wales.
I have made note that the closest by primogeniture to Llywelyn I the Great, Llywelyn II, Owain I Gwynedd, and through them to Rhodri the Great.... is Sir David Watkin Williams-Wynn, 11th Baronet who lives in St Asaph.
So strong is the Welsh monarchist tradition within Plaid Cymru that the party refused and refuses today to advocate a republican manifesto. Members have left the party because of this, but the party soldiers on.
This does not mean... as clearly there are... republican members. But Plaid itself has never advocated for a republican form of government.
DJ Davies advocated a form of government most like Denmark, Norway, or the Netherlands.
Complain about this comment
The Aberffraw arms displayed were first associated with Iorwerth ab Owain (Owain I Gwynedd) , the father of Llywelyn I the Great. Irowerth was displaced by Dafydd ab Owain, who usurperd the throne in 1170 in a coup.
Llywelyn I the Great received the fealty of all the independent Welsh lords in the 1216 Council of Aberdyfi, thus becoming "de facto" Prince of Wales. Over two-thirds of modern Wales was part of the Principality of Wales, including all of North Wales, modern Powys, Ceredigion, and Carmarthenshire, and giving substance to the Aberffraw claim of primacy over the other Welsh lords.
Llywelyn II's arms, as far as I can tell, were three red lions guardant on a white field.
These were two different arms for the two Llywelyn's.
Complain about this comment
Betsan wrote:
I doubt you will be discussing it around the water cooler...
Betsan... with 26 responses (albiet many of my own!) I think there is alot of interest after all! lol.
Complain about this comment
*I now see the shamrock... yes that is odd. I had thought they were merely leaves! lol.
Though... in the middle ages there was much cultural and trade links between Wales and Ireland.... but I admit that I am stretching that some.
The Arms should incorporate the Aberffraw arms, with the Llywelyn Coronet and Cross of Neath... these would have been the natural heraldic devices had Wales developed independently anyway as they were in use in the 12th and 13th centuries.
I am neutral on the Tudor roses.
Complain about this comment
I am not sure if this is the correct blog to add this to but.....
In Cardiff we have some letting agents, one of which is called 'Let Wise'.
I you can translate Arabic into English or English into Arabic yopu will find the 99 Glorious names of Allah, one of these is Al-Nafi (The Naafi) = which means the Benefiter.
If you translate The Wise into Arabic it comes out as Al-Hakim, also if you translate The Truth into Arabic is comes out as Al-Haqq
Phaser-FUN
Complain about this comment
I think the badge is great. It has the Crown on it as it is for use on Measures once the Queen has signed them into law. For as long as we are a Kingdom the Crown is appropriate. It has the long established Royal badge of Wales. It has symbols of other parts of the UK (the Scottish Arms show the English lion, the English Arms show the Scottish Unicorn, it is not just Wales that is inclusive on its Royal symbols). It has a historic motto taken from the Welsh national anthem. It was drawn up by the world's most respected heraldic body the College of Arms and it was approved by Queen Elizabeth II who has approved the arms of more countries than anyone else in history due to the independence of almost 50 countries as the British Empire ended during her reign.
For those contributors who say things against it on the grounds that it does not match their wish for a republican Wales they are making the mistake of imposing their views on the majority, who are consistently monarchist in every opinion poll taken since WWII. They also undermine their arguments for democracy by refusing to acknowledge that the majority's views are no less valid or Welsh than their own.
Complain about this comment
#30 Treflesg wrote:
"They also undermine their arguments for democracy by refusing to acknowledge that the majority's views are no less valid or Welsh than their own."
There has never been a poll on whether or not there should be a monarchy. The people of this country have never been asked, although it's supposedly a democracy. There has never been a national debate, on a UK level, let alone in Wales.
Personally, I favour a republic, with an elected head of state, on similar lines to the Republic of Ireland, which has had two excellent female presidents, who are not politicians. I find the hereditary principle repugnant, and anti-democratic. It is also class-ridden, particularly in the UK.
The English monarchy is also strongly military in its outlook. The UK has an appalling history of military conquest, imperialism and colonialism. It is currently involved in two immoral, if not illegal, conflicts, which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Charles' youngest son relishes partaking in the conflict in Afghanistan, and has been assisting with directing US and British aircraft in bombing Afghan villages, where the number of civilian casualties cannot be known.
As far as Wales is concerned, I find it even more repellent to have a monarch who is queen of another country, not mine. Furthermore, an imposed prince, from a hereditary line which killed the last Welsh Prince, and which symbolises conquest and domination down the centuries.
So, should we be grateful for this 'royal badge'? Perhaps if the UK recognised Wales as an integral part of the Union, not as an adjunct to England. Maybe if there was an union flag on which Wales was represented, or even such a royal coat of arms.
It won't be until the people of Wales assert themselves, that they will get respect.
I agree with Lyn Thomas in#9:
"I am sure the heraldic nuances will go over the heads of most of us. But surely this is again a confirmation of the second class nature of our legislature?"
Complain about this comment
Betsan:
I loved the new code of arms...
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS