Cross border co-operation
For weeks now we've been asking the Conservatives at their weekly briefing, when Lord Wyn Roberts, who retired as the party's spokesman on Wales in the House of Lords, intends to submit his interim report reviewing party policy on devolution.
Granted it was David Cameron who asked him to write it (no surprises that he didn't think to give the job to the current spokesman on Wales,Lord Glentoran) and it's to the party leader that Lord Roberts has, we learn today, just submitted it.
Bang on time Lord Roberts.
Now given that Mr Cameron's plan is that "we get the devolution issue right and we settle it" and given his party may well be in a position to "settle it" after the next General Election, it would be very, very good to know what Lord Roberts has discovered while rifling among the party's grassroots. I've been on this kind of trail before and don't want to end up empty handed again.
A quick call to the Conservatives here to ask whether they've seen it yet and what are the chances of getting a copy?
The - sanguine - answer is that no, they haven't seen it yet, that as an interim report it may not be made public at all and in fact, they had no idea it had been submitted.
Lord Roberts apparently thinks the future lies in "a more co-operative spirit between Wales and Westminster".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
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This reluctance from the UK Conservative to fully embrace Devolution should be no surprise. They sense that they will be in power by the next general election, and sense that they will be in a position to advocate the status que on the devolution question, punting it further down the road.
There will naturally be disagreements between the Wales and Scottish Conservative members who see that their future lies more and more with the Senedd of Wales and and Parliament of Scotland, just as .... quietly... Welsh Labour and Scottish Labour, has come to the same conclusions.
Don't look for much insight into the interium report Ms Powys!
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In Wales it is now difficult to tell whoch party your are listening to as all of the major partes have started sounding like Plaid! And are decidedly pro-devolution. And yet the main Conservative party is unwilling to say a thing about devolution - that can only lead us to presume that they think their views will damage the party. Say for example if they were against devolution then Bournes position here will be severly weakened and Tory chances in Wales would be diminished.
Besides it's a report form the Tories so I doubt it contains much sense!
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Maybe one day Ms Powys might report as critically on Plaid Cymru as she does on the Tories.
How much longer is the BBC going to allow such unfairness.
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Without Devolution ~ NO Welsh Tory Party profile or being "part of the New Baywatch club".
A life-line to them in stormy times.
Nick was Bourne yesterday?
ITZA ABOUT (TEMP) POSITIONING.
"DAFT"
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Since devolution, the workplace has become increasingly difficult as a result of pressures on people to learn Welsh even in the most anglicised of areas. I deeply resent the fact that Welsh language zealots are invading my professional space in this way. After feeling ambivalent about the establishment of the Assembly, I have become completely alienated. The WAG is now in the hands of fanatics who are intent on artificially creating a bilingual Wales at any cost. The media in Wales, ever partial and self-interested, cannot believe their luck. More money and jobs for the boys. When is the ethnic cleansing going to start? More powers? Absolutely not. Abolition now!
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I wonder how many other people find the tone of legendaryacocet to be offensive. To compare those few steps being taken to encourage the use of Welsh with ethinic cleansing or as a prelude to ethnic cleansing as is suggested is grossy offensive. Perhaps it would be charitable to suggest that the correspondent is getting carried away, certainly any comparison with the slaughter of thousand and the forced migration of millions is not justified, hysterical even.
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Lyn Thomas, your post not only epitomizes the touchiness of those who seek to force a language on to the 100% of the population of Wales who speak English. It also is an excellent example of just what Legendaryavocet was stating.
The Welsh language fanatics will stoop amazingly low when faced with any kind of criticism. The "Welsh language" brigade have a long and shameful record of violence and intimidation going back to the sixties. Only a simpleton would assume it has ended.
I am genuinely surprised that ANY criticism of the assembly, and the compulsory force-feeding of the Welsh language is not quickly removed from this supposedly fairly run blog.
If anyone is getting "carried away" it is the independalista element. They are just a short time away from the backlash which will come from the vast majority of Welsh people who resent this divisive,expensive, and pointless 'push to Welshness'
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By the way, just popped over to Vaughan Roderick's Welsh language blog.
Rushed off their feet over there aren't they !
Just 2 replies from the last 7 topics.
Scrap it !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ah yes, the old spittle guard post. Not wishing to brag "daverodway" but it obviously had quite an effect on you didn't it?
For your very first post(!) you actually saw fit to go back to Gawd knows when, in order to quote me. Sorry "Dave" me old mucca, but I smell a rat here.
I also sense a severe lack of a sense of humour, although this is common amongst the more devout independence worshippers.
Strange isn't it, how the Welsh nationalists only "post" or "contribute" or "reasonably complain". Whereas we who are against nationalistic tomfoolery always "rant" are "disturbed" and are "a crew of minority hating cranks".
All expressions that I'm damn sure would get a posting of mine wiped off straightaway.
I am disgusted with this blog. It is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the nationalist cause. As far as I know there are just two or three who are against the furtherance of nationalism on here. I assume we are not employees of the BBC, nor are we anything whatsoever to do with the assembly, or any political party.
A level playing-field this is not. But there again, this is BBC Wales...We can expect little else.
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Daverodway, what do you expect? Our professional lives are being turned upside down by the aggressive promotion of Welsh which, ultimately, seems to arise from a bitter spirit of vengeance. If we complain or criticise, we are accused of ranting or being unpatriotic. It's affecting many of us so seriously that we no longer feel welcome in our own country. I dispute the notion that we are any more vitriolic than the pro-Welsh language lobby, but I think questions need to be asked about the wisdom of trampling over people’s lives to make people speak Welsh. Personally, having once been patriotic to the point of wanting to learn Welsh, I now hate its every syllable. That doesn’t say much for the efficacy of Welsh language promotion or the propaganda that we are paying for through the BBC licence fee.
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Noah, is that a 'yes' to my question about your post or a 'no'?
Simple question.
I belong to no party, am half English, and not employed by BBC. I don't speak Welsh (I know you people like to know if they're demeaning themselves by dealing with Welsh-speakers - fear not - I'm one of your own, just one who thinks you're sad). I also use my real name. Enough said.
But please tell us if you did in fact make that comment.
Because you sound an awful lot like a very rattled man to me...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I can see this discussion is becoming somewhat heated. I suggest people tone it down.
A sense of humour does not include racist comments about the Welsh language. Reasoned debate does not include likening a few gentle promotional aids for the Welsh language to ethnic cleansing. There does seem to be a servile nature to some of the anti Welsh language and anti Welsh governance posts. Are we a nation really incapable with handling a very modest measure of devolution and self government? Some seem to think so and I find that very worrying.
Back to Betsan's Blog. I think it is quite right to point out the differences within the Conservative Party over devolution. Like the Labour Party the Parliamentary party seems luke warm, while the Party in the National Assembly relatively enthusiastic. Party members in the country are an unknown quantity, with the likes of Peter Davies being a strident opponent. It is an interesting circle to square.
Incidentally if people are interested in volume of posts - I suggest you pop over to Blether with Brian.....
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Well, I think comments about 'ethnic cleansing' are way inappropriate, uncivil, and out-of-line. If you wish to witness real ethnic cleansing, please take a trip to Serbia, Kosovo, or Darfor.
I wont even go into the well documented historical discrimination against Welsh speakers, as late as 2003!
Naturally some are understandably concerned at having to learn, what is for them, a second language. Their concerns are justified to a point.
But only to a point. Most Europeans know a second language and can switch between the two easily enough. Understandably, some of an age find it more difficult to pick up a 'second language', but should at least put in a good-faith effort to learn the native language of the place they live.
France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and so many others, pass laws protecting the use of their language, and promoting its use both in the education system and within the business world. Why should Wales not promote, suport, and encoruage its own native language?
It has been claimed that Welsh speakers rarely use the Welsh language services offered by those companies that do offer Welsh language services, however it has been revealed that it is because those services were not up-to-date and accurate for the business needs of the clients, and Welsh Water itself promoted its Welsh Language services and saw the use of its Welsh language services sky-rocket!
The government must legislate for the promotion of Welsh language services in the business community as well as in the media. No one should be forced to learn a language that they do not wish to learn.... we saw how the English discriminated against Welsh speakers with the Welsh Not schemes they promoted only a few generations ago.
But the point is if you live in Wales, you should make a good-faith effort to learn the native language of the country...
... or prehaps move to England.
But the choice of learning the language is not akin in any way to ethnic cleansing and that comparison is very objectionable.
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Back to the topic at hand about the Conservitives:
Yes it is all posturing, but tha is the nature of politics. According to the most recent poll, two-thirds of the Conservitives within the Assembly want more powers akin to Scottish style parliament.
There is a real and growing disconnect between the UK conservitive and the Wales/Scottish concervitive. The Wales/Scottish Conservitive recognizes that their future is tied with devolution.... the UK Conservitives seem to want to sit on their hands and not do anything more to encourage devolution.
Whatever positioning you witness Conservitives (both Welsh and UK) in the media, I belive you will see more Welsh Conservitives backing full parliamentary powers.... especially since we see that 2/3 already support it. That is a significant number.
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11. At 9:05pm on 12 Jul 2008, HarryBolingbroke wrote:
Personally, having once been patriotic to the point of wanting to learn Welsh, I now hate its every syllable.
Harry,
I am sincerly sorry that you have had such a negitive expierence learning Welsh, and hope that you would give it a go again. You do not have to speak Welsh to be Welsh.... an English speaking Welshman can be just as patriotic a Welshman.
But I do hope that you reconsider.
Either way, good luck!
David Llewellyn
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Thanks Drachenfyre, I appreciate your good wishes but my negative experience wasn't a result of learning Welsh. I usually enjoy languages because I love words. My problem arises from my abhorrence to the triumphalism now sweeping the country, and the totalitarian excesses of the Welsh language lobby. I was patriotic but I refuse to be drawn into nationalist fervour and now prefer to think of myself purely as a citizen of the world (brotherhood of man and all that). My native language is English and I don't believe that I have a duty to learn Welsh. My 'second language', by the way, is Italian, in which I am fluent. My Welsh-speaking great grandfather would be horrified to see that the struggles he faced as a child in being forced to learn English are now being re-visited in reverse on new generations. We all know how inequitable the job market is now, as positive discrimination in favour of Welsh speakers takes hold even in English- speaking areas. We are merely piling injustice on injustice. Until, those who now hold the reins of power understand the resentment they are causing, they will have a battle on their hands.
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Citizen of the World does not mean that you can not also take pride in your homeland, the two are not exclusive.,
Well, I do disagree with some of your points Harry. I think there is a moral imperitive to teach the language in school and promote its use where ever possible.
However, that does not mean that you should be forced to speak it yourself. You, and your children, should not necessarily be forced to speak another language that you do not want to. That is part of Human Rights.
However, that is not what happened before... when Welsh speakers were forced to speak English at schools in Law, and the workplace: and even as late as 2006 Welsh speakers in Gwynedd were forced to speak English in the workplace, even though they were speaking to fellow Welsh speakers. In the late 1990s hotel workers were all fired because they were speaking Welsh in the workplace as well, and a student who studied Welsh as his primary and English as his secondary language was discriminated against at an English university because they didnt feel he met their criteria for second language qualifications.
There is a significant difference between the legislated English Only of your great grandfather's day, and the positive volentary learing and use of the language today.
If you can speak Italian already, that is good.
By the way, my step-father is first generation Italian-American, the family is from Naples... he knows all the curse words in Italian but that is mostly it! lol. He wishes he learned it as a child, and his mother, my grandmother, regrets not teaching it to them as children.
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Interesting about your step-father, Drachenfyre. I think there's something very special about Neapolitan music, and the view over the Bay from Posilippo is spectacular. I agree that discrimination against Welsh speakers is unjust, and the cases you cite - especially that of the hotel workers - are disturbing. We do need, though, to ensure that such injustices are not now repeated in English-speaking areas, and it is the case now that Welsh is being forced on many of us in the workplace to no practical benefit. Two good (and clever) friends of mine have missed out on jobs which were given to Welsh speakers from the Welsh heartlands (I can't prove that the reasons are ideological, of course, but I'm feeling suspicious). Learning of Welsh, unfortunately, is not 'voluntary'. If it were, there might be greater chance of success. As you know, it is compulsory in schools. I personally think it should be an option in schools since all languages are valuable, but I am against its current compulsory status. A calmer, fairer approach by supporters of the language would dampen down the growing hostility....
I hope that my pride in my homeland will one day be restored.
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20. At 12:38pm on 14 Jul 2008, -Drachenfyre- wrote:
However, that is not what happened before... when Welsh speakers were forced to speak English at schools in Law, and the workplace:
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My dear Drachenfyre.
With reference to the above quote.
I have searched diligently, but have so far failed to find details of any LAW which forced Welsh speakers to speak English at schools and the workplace.
I am familiar with the 'Welsh not', but as you are no doubt aware this was in no way connected to any laws whatsoever. So, I would be grateful if you could elaborate on these (hard to find) laws you mention.
Regards Noah.
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@ Noah,
I misspoke and I am sorry for being unclear. What I ment to say was Welsh was not a legal language in Law when givig evidence in a court of law until the most recent Welsh Language Acts, which brought Welsh some legal recognition (but far from equal status). And if I remember correctly, Welsh may not be spoken in the House of Lords, (though I don't know about the Commons), as it is considered a foreign language.
The first Welsh language schools did not start teaching in Welsh until the 1950s!
Today, the growth in Welsh is with the young, and there are more Welsh speakers now in the youth age-groups then there are in the senior age groups! And dispite the recent bout of widspread school closings, there is such a huge demand now by English speaking parents to have their children tought in Welsh (that is all their school work is tought in the Welsh language primarily) that Welsh medium schools have had to be opened to supply the demand.
These are good results! No one is being punished for speaking Welsh, yet it is positively encouraged. Another Welsh Language Act does need to be passed, however, to make sure the business world also offers up-to-date and accurate Welsh language services.
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Drachenfyre.
I freely admit that at the moment everything in the garden looks rosy for the devolutionists, but it cannot last.
The little by little approach planned by Rhodri and his close friends in Plaid Cymru, while clever, is doomed to failure. The politicians in Wales (of almost all parties) along with the BBC, are way out of touch with the public.
It's as if politicians, representatives of the media, heads of quangos, plus various committees, had all sat down (behind closed doors) and decided the future of
Wales.
More and more I hear ordinary folk complaining about the assembly. Their priorities seem to be to force the English speakig populaton to learn Welsh . . . or else!
This is particuarly so in the field of employment. Plaid Cymru members have openly bragged on the BBC About Wales
website that you will soon need to be a Welsh speaker to even be eligible for any good job..... Reassuring eh !
I'm out of all that nowadays. But I still retain a sense of right and wrong. The policy of pushing the Welsh language onto a good-natured population will eventually blow up in Plaid's face. The monoglot English speakers will only take so much, that limit is not far away.
Already there are a growing number of (highly)skilled workers, particularly engineers, who are leaving Wales for pastures new. I'm not suggesting that devolution is the main cause of their emigrating (a certain Mr. Brown can be blamed for that) But when someone is contemplating a move from Wales, to say Australia, Canada, or mainland Europe. The suggestion that they, their children, or their grandchildren need to learn Welsh in order to 'get on' easily becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back.
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Noah,
As I pointed out before in just the prior post, the move to teach the children in the Welsh medium is being directed at the family level. Children are learning Welsh and speaking Welsh, even if their household primarily speaks English. The parents are demanding schools that teach primarily in Welsh, and you see local governments acting accordingly.
If you see that all of the political parties and other community leaders are generally all suporting the same goals (such as devolution, Welsh language, social policies), prehaps there is more general concensus towards those goals then you are aware of.
I do not wish to be confrontational, but have you considered that you were preaching to the choir? In a nut shell, prehaps that the circle of friends that you speak to and know all believe the same thing, and therefore you belive that what is true for your circle of friends must be true for everyone?
I mean, really, what you out-line is such a grand conspiracy as to be fantastical.
When you say that learning Welsh is the "straw that broke the camels back", that is an exaggeration because the moves you illustrate are very expensive moves to begin with and not taken lightly. Those families would have had far more pressing reasons for such a move and would have moved regardless. You exaggerate the degree to which education and profiency in Welsh would play in a family's decision to move *out* of Wales.
Learning and using Welsh has primary benifits in Wales, no question. And increasingly the elected officials and business leaders and community leaders are coming and have come to that conclusion and Welsh society values the use of and promotion of Welsh, but this is not a conspiracy.
It is a social movment, however, and can be characterized as one. Will there be disaffected? Such as yourself? Yes, there will be. And that is a sorry predicament to be in. You feel that you are losing the country that you knew, and that is the cruxed of it really and I do sympathize for you, but so many others are (re)discovering their country for the first time in generations! And they are voting and demanding these changes.
Now, I think we have hi-jacked Betsan's threads too much with off-topic issues. We should all agree to keep to the topic at hand. I hope that you too will agree to keep to the topics at hand.
David Llewellyn
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I can't wait for Devolution. Finally our Ecconomy won't have to put up with the feeloaders from Wales (As well documented on BBC programmes) and the obtuse influance that Scottish Politicians currently have over matters of soley English interest.
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