World Cup honeymoon at an end?
A good analysis of the politics behind the current, indefinite, public service strike action that is starting to bite, painfully, at schools, courts and particularly hospitals across South Africa.
The World Cup honeymoon would appear to be winding down.
Does this country need a "Thatcher moment"? If it does I can't imagine it happening yet. President Zuma - master of consensus - owes too many favours to the left, and lacks the appetite and stomach for that particular fight. Besides, he might well not win - especially with the ANC's elites so publically addicted to personal profligacy in the face of real hardships among so many workers.
Not for the first time, industrial action here has revealed the fundamental political absurdities at the heart of South Africa's tripartite alliance - an increasingly threadbare umbrella that strains to cover strict monetarists and the communist party, whose youth league called this week for "an end to capitalism!"
But reports of the alliance's death remain exaggerated. Too many people still benefit from club membership.
I’m 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~20~RS~)
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If you mean an end to the honeymoon of jobs created by The World Cup, of course, that is at an end, and likely has made the situation worse because of the brief chance for the poor to earn a little money.
South Africa's tripartite alliance cannot last as long as Zuma's Government remains chained to unions. Many people still benefit, but only until the masses (poor and unemployed) raise up.
Look at this current strike action. Lots of placards:
- "We say no to poverty wages."
- "We say no to 6% increase."
- "Give us a living wage."
Apart from the immediate effects - disruptions in services - there is a lack of realism in these placards. Productivity is falling. Does this seem to say that there is more money to go around?
Labour unions seem to forget that productivity is "the" key to what employers can pay. In addition, legislated increases do not convert to increased productivity.
Between 2001 and 2010, labour productivity fell, while real remuneration increased. Pay is increasing at a rate of (at least) 12% above the level that can be justified by inflation and productivity growth. This leads me to believe that unions have too much power; union leaders do not realise how increased wages must be tied to increased productivity...or they choose to close their eyes. Zuma choses to close his eyes.
Yet a total of 6M South Africans are unemployed, or have stopped looking.
SA labour unions played a pivotal role in the transition from apartheid to democracy. It was thus a natural development that the COSATU Federation became an important part of what is now the tripartite alliance. Workers within the unionised sector are secure; those locked out are not.
However, unions may have served their purpose; now they drive up unemployment because they block potential competition. Unions have become an albatross. Government must start to think once again about ordinary poor South Africans - black and white. The Government is at risk. Poor unemployed South Africans are more volatile; in time they will likely rise up with the consequent bloodshed. The smart political thing to do is maximise the opportunities for poor before civil unrest breaks out, but how to accomplish that when so many elites profit from the way things are.
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The ANC holds the majority of what is called the Tripartite alliance, followed by COSATU, South Africa's largest umbrella of Trade Unions, and lastly the SACP. In order for an ANC Government to govern, it has to keep in mind the objectives and obligations towards its partners, so that it can continue to enjoy their support.
The ANC wishes to govern, and I am sure wishes to bring about a better life for all. Or at the very least, some within the ANC continue to endeavor to bring this about. Though the ANC is rotten with those who are related to previous ANC icons. They are treated as royalty, enjoying great benefits and favours from on all levels, without in reality deserving to enjoy such position. The party is filled with descendants of the the erstwhile ANC Greats. Within the ANC its a game of cat and mouse, personal interest, personal vendettas and advancement are the overall drive of party rallies. We see this within all levels of the ANC. Party rallies in most instances, end in chaos, and wild accusations are flown about. Unfortunately, this chaos and infighting spill over into Government, cocking up the wheels of effective government institutions.
COSATU, as a labour union enjoy the membership of around 1,200,000 people. And as such should take into consideration the needs and aspirations of its members. However, they are so fixated on providing wage increases and greater benefits to their members, that they quite regularly cripple all sectors of the economy in order to force the Government's and private sector's hand in reaching a settlement to their demands. By right their members are entitled to deserve decent wages, but the damage general strike action has on the economy is devastating. COSATU has very little to do with the ANC's main objective of creating jobs. Since those without jobs are not paying members and therefore can not enjoy the fruits of COSATU's labours. Constructive industrial action is something that COSATU's is plainly not aware of.
The SACP, the smallest member of the Tripartite Alliance, with around 60,000 paid up members, strives towards Marxist-Leninist principles. In other words, they maintain nationalisation without compensation, state run enterprises, and revolutionary agrarian reform. Their influence is minimal in structuring the party directives, but they are placated with half hearted compromises. Recently we hear more and more the undertones of a Marxist flavour coming from the ANC.
Having looked briefly at what makes the Tripartite Alliance, we can surmise that we have 3 different ideologies, 3 different directions in which to govern South Africa. It has become nearly impossible to maintain effective government, since the ANC remain unable to set clear directives and implement a defined policy for good governance. Policies change regularly, disrupting and negatively affecting service delivery. The Government is being held ransom to satisfy the needs of the party alliance, add to that the need for those in Government to satisfy the needs of those in the party that gave them support for the position they find themselves in.
For the ANC to maintain effective control, and effective government, they must clearly define their main objectives. They need a strong personality willing to take the political risk to bring their house in order. The downward spiral of services and service delivery is a ticking time bomb. It will estrange the electorate as more people will start to look elsewhere to have their needs and aspirationS taken seriously! If the Tripartite alliance fail, we will see a definite shift in South African politics, the democratic process will become more robust, and we will problably see a period of transition from an ANC Majority government to a coalition government before the South African democracy matures, and see viable contenders forming single party governments in future.
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That's a very charitable and generous assessment Revolutionary Humanist. I don't totally disagree, it may very well go the way you suggest. However the more likely scenario is that the ANC's fixation on being all things to all (non-white) South Africans coupled with their lust for affirmative tenderpreneur culture and BEE may drive them into a self preservationist laager in order to secure their loot. The ANC are terrified that loosing power will expose the level of incompetence and corruption extant within the government. Service delivery has failed after they ideologically purged all those with skills for being the wrong type of South African, without that carrot the only way to keep the masses on board will be to lurch left. We may find that certain powerful new generation members have their fingers so deep in the public purse that new management might insist on prosecuting them if they come to power. Should that become a possibility the ANC, like ZANU-PF, will go to any lengths to maintain power in order to keep their liberty and ill gotten gains. I don't think it's going to be a textbook case of political evolution into a multi-party democracy, there is too much self interest and far too much wealth involved for those at the top table to go gracefully, there was only ever one Mandela in the ANC. I hope it will be a gradual transition to a proper fully fledged non racial democracy. However you only have to look at the proposed media legislation to see the fear in their eyes, my experience with SA tells me nothing happens quite the way one thinks it might. Too many egos and personalities are involved with their main objective being to enrich themselves from the public purse.
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@ benmaxius
I honestly think we should not underestimate the majority of South Africans. It is they who suffer the brunt of poor service delivery. The current strike by a million people are only adding to that misery, a million compared to the overall population of close to 50 million. Cosatu’s Zwelinzima Vavi called on entire trade union federation’s membership to support the public strike, threatening to bring South Africa to a standstill. We are looking at a ticking timebomb!
What makes matters worse is that our dear president upped and left for China, while more urgent matters deserve his attention back home...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mze-djimba, I hear where you are coming from and in many instances you are correct, there is a great well of bitterness about the loss of privilege among some segments of the white population. However my assessment is based on what I have witnessed and experienced personally, I wish it were not so but it is. My gloomy assessment is based on actual events not racial bigotry.
1. SABC in chaos at board level
2. New oppressive media laws being proposed - and opposed by the likes of Tutu
3. CEO's of state enterprises being dismissed in secret meetings - Transnet, Petrosa
4. Service delivery failure through mismanagement
Etc.. I am not making this stuff up. In my opinion much of SA's current problems are due to the brain drain brought on my affirmative action. Affirmative action is the inefficient pretty sister to the ugly apartheid sister, they belong to the same family and have the same parents. It treats people of different races differently and affords people opportunities based on race not ability, that's just wrong, it was wrong then and it's wrong now.
We here in the west (including us new white African born arrivals) are highly critical of our adoptive governments. We use our robust free press which is constantly vigilant and constantly on the attack to root out incompetence and corruption, which happens all the time. We have our Parliamentary expense scandals and corrupt politicians that we are prosecuting in the harsh light of a free press. Having a go at government is not an exclusively SA ex-pat phenomenon.
For the record I detest the AWB and their ilk, and not to parade my own struggle credentials but I have seen the inside of John Voster Square and it wasn't as a police man, I have my sjambok scars for daring to speak out in the 80's when I was young and idealistic. I would never advocate a return to the racial politics of the past.
Your response however is exactly what I am railing against, any criticism form a white person and they are branded an enemy and an AWB sympathiser. I object to that in the strongest possible terms. I would love to return to South Africa and make a positive contribution, but not as a second class citizen with opportunities denied to me on the basis of my race. Even if it is only theoretical, it exists in legislation and is discouraging.
I am 100% on board with the uplifting the previously disadvantaged and understand the historical need, it's a real necessity, but it's immoral to achieve this by denying one group opportunities in favour of another, progress has to be achieved through creating additional opportunities for all and levelling the playing field so we are all playing the same game by the same rules. This way the ANC retains the moral high ground which it is rapidly losing.
The hard core Afrikaners may have been an odious bunch of bigots, but like the Nazis they were nothing if not efficient, they should be harnessed for the common good not excluded through affirmative action and left to become an embittered rump, you are stuck with them so you may as well use them, besides there is not enough of them to constitute a credible democratic threat at any rate. Use them for what they are good at, they are South Africans after all.
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Revolutionary Humanist I really hope my assessment errs on the gloomy side and that the true majority will win the day, I don't include the 1 million relatively privileged public sector workers in that. It's not the majority that troubles me it's the arrogant self enriching elite minority of the Julius Malema ilk that present a clear and present danger to all South Africans. Good luck with the strike, my remaining family in SA tell me it is beginning to bite now.
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@ mze-djimba
Brother, I strongly object to be associated with any fascist/racist organization.
When I look at how many people live in sub-human conditions around the country, when I see people suffering and dying in state hospitals, when I see our youth with so much potential receive a below standard level of education, when I see a million people who have jobs and enjoy state benefits taking severe strike action, intimidating non strikers, destryoing infrastructure, and abusing those who seek essential services...who must we criticize? where does the blame fall?
We are seeing an increasingly hostile attitude coming out of the ranks of the ANC, the ANC today is not the ANC that brought us our freedom. We see increased corruption, we see the abuse of BEE policies to enrich top ANC members' families and friends, instead of supporting and developing those who BEE was designed for. We hear of threats to kurb and censor the media and information. We see government spending billions of luxury cars, and hotel stays. We see government abusing government funds at government out reach programmes that turn into ANC party rallies. We see ministers of the cabinet abusing their authority, and ignoring the systems and mechanisms of parliament.
Who should we criticise?
We see president Jacob Zuma paying a foreign visit to China, during a period when his government needs his leadership back home.
Who should we criticise?
Not all criticism is intended to malign. These criticisms wherever they come from, are intended for the sole purpose of bringing to light the inadequacies of current government policies. It brings about debate and presure so that those in power can re-evaluate their actions, so that they can ammend and adjust policy where and when it matters, so that we can avoid moving into the abyss.
It is how democracy should function. It is what ensures that everyone is heard and most are sattisfied.
In all of my posts to articles relating to South Africa, and you are more than welcome read them again, I have never said anything about anyone with the intention to malign. I have never played the race card. In South Africa my dream is to move away form white, black, coloured, indian and chinese. I only always speak of South Africans in general. I do not see the difference between race, we are only one race and that is the human race.
My criticism on my blog are usually directed where they are needed. I constantly get accused of being anti-white, anti-afrikaner and anti-christian when I criticise the narrow mindedness of the AWB, Broederbond, VF+ or those Afrikaners who live in Orania petitioning for a Volkstaat. I also recieve criticism for my social-democratic views.
I recieve criticism from individuals as yourself on the other side of the spectrum, where I am maligned at times, as in your post above, as being a racist or against the government or democracy for that matter.
Let me make it abundantly clear. I am a humanist, I believe in equality regardless of sex, creed, affiliation, religion, ethnicity and sexual orientation. I believe that each human being are entitled to voice their oppinions, I believe in each and every person's fundemental rights. And I do not presume that I have all the answers to all the questions and the ability to solve all our problems, but I do have a voice, and where I witness injustice of any kind, I will stand up, and I will voice a just and fair criticism.
It is in constructive dialogue, that we together will be able to build a truly fair and just society. Without the cross name calling and accusations we can bridge our cultural and social differences, and reach a point where we can decide together what is best for our country.
Colonialism is gone, Apartheid is gone. But in its place now, we face a far greater threat. We have millions of South Africans without jobs. We have the youth having to resort to crime and violence because they are unable to afford tertiary education and secure jobs. We have in places people starving. And the people who they put in place to ease their suffering and improve their lot are failing them.
Who should criticise them, if not us, the people?
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Benmaxis, you have summed this up very well and I believe there are many South Africans, specially those living abroad, who agree with you. Mze-djimba, I am afraid you need to wake up and smell the roses! Please stop blaming the past, but rather learn from it and move on to doing the right thing for all South Africans. Education and Safety should be the priority so that everybody has a suitable environment in which to do their best.
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The White Minorities in South Africa are beneficiaries of APARTHEID!!
The White Led Government benefitted them, hence today they miss those Privileges.
Could this be the reason why they are bitter in their comments?
Anyway, most of them (the White Afrikaners/Boers) predicted Doom eben in 1994, and told us that no country was successfully run by a Black man!!
Today its the same Boers who sings Praises to Mandela and calling him all sweet names like Thata (my father) and so on...
So yeah how else can we level the play ground without our beautiful Affirmative Action policies and BEE.
The same Mandela you jailed and called all sorts of names. At one point Afrikaner/Boers called him a Terrorist
Now what happened?
You were proven wrong!
Thats what happened!
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I have considered your comment Afrikaner and I am struggling to find how I personally benefited from Apartheid. Perhaps my parents might have benefited in the 60's and the 70's, but they were never wealthy, despite any white privilege.
My youth in the 80's was ruined by Apartheid. I grew up to the echo of the Spitting Image song 'I have never met a nice South African' and being compared to a Nazi for a situation I was born into and had no part in creating or maintaining, I did everything I could to bring it to an end as soon as I was able. I am a bright lad and got bursaries and scholarships, when I went abroad to study I was asked had I ever killed a black man. So effective was the ANC campaign and so complete was the demonising of all white South Africans.
The first time I was old enough to vote I flew home and voted ANC. I worked hard between then and '98 before going into exile in the UK due to my opposition to affirmative action. SA has lost a bright Russell Group graduate and entrepreneur. I now run a successful company that employs people of all races and creeds here in the UK. I select the best talent regardless of race, gender or age and have a turnover in the excess of £1m per annum.
I would have preferred to have achieved my ambitions in the land of my birth, but was prevented from doing so because, now as then, I oppose any form of racial and gender discrimination and could not ethically contribute to SA taking that into account, the same way I refused to assist the Apartheid state.
I am not a religious person but perhaps it is a paradigm that may resonate with you.
(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
Apartheid was unjust, so is affirmative action, two wrongs can never make a right. There is a huge moral problem with getting the current generation to pay for a past that they had no part in creating.
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Atleast you admit that your family are Beneficiaries of the Luxuries and Privileges White people and their children enjoyed at our Expence!
And now you want to have the same chances as me coming from the Township structures your ilk created for us.
These Policies are just good!
Affirmative Action in Balancing the play ground!
Talk about even Land that you White Afrikaners still to this day occupy!
You made Foriegners in our own country and now you want to talk!!
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I see now your struggle was not for equality it was for supremacy, perhaps I was wrong to have voted ANC and perhaps many others will feel the same
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The White Minority Government gave Prime Land to these Minority Whites!
How should this be addressed if not by these BEE policies!
White Minorities own about 80% of the Prime Land in SA
Whats that?
What about us the Black people!!
And then you have these guys coming up here saying lets forget the past and move on?
How do we move on with such gross inequalities?
The ANC will save us!!
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The White Minority Government gave Prime Land to these Minority Whites!
White Minorities own about 80% of the Prime Land in SA
Whats that?
What about us the Black people!!
And then you have these guys coming up here saying lets forget the past and move on?
How do we move on with such gross inequalities?
The ANC will save us!!
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Apartheid Government gave Prime Land to these Minority Whites!
Who today claim to have not benefitted
White Minorities own about 80% of the Prime Land in SA
Whats that?
What about us the Black people!!
And then you have these guys coming up here saying lets forget the past and move on?
How do we move on with such gross inequalities?
The ANC will save us!!
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Afrikaner, please do not get me wrong, I am actually on your side. I want to see all South Africans prosperous with the opportunity to be their best. I have no problem with changing the structure of land ownership in SA to be more equitable, I am no fan of the 1830's smash and grab Boers myself, but they do get the job done and unless you have people that can do at as well as they can what's the point of doing away with them on idealogical grounds alone? The 1913 land act was a injustice of epic proportions. The 1948 Apartheid laws are probably one of the greatest injustices in modern history. This generation recognises and accepts that. But I didn't make them nor did I support them, but I am being asked to pay for them through being denied access to opportunities that I am well equipped to handle and generate loads of jobs and tax revenues from. Don't squander a valuable resource just because it's not black, use it for the benefit of all.
There is no point in replacing commercial tax generating farms that employ hundreds of people with non tax generating subsistence farmers, who will be just as poor as before they were bound to their non viable plots, or doling out farms as party patronage ZANU style, that benefits nobody other than a few party officials. If you have a class of black commercial farmers to hand, deploy them now, you will have have a surprising amount of support from many unexpected parts. I have no problem with forced sales to remove entrenched Boers that got their land through unjust laws. That's not a race thing is a justice thing. Of course, providing the farms will be used to generate employment, agricultural produce and tax revenue at a similar rate, and not end up dormant, filling the land portfolios of the favoured few.
I also have no problem in allocating additional funds into education in deprived areas and uplifting those previously disadvantaged, that's proper and right. But that's not what is going on, and you guys in the townships know that. We must put practicality before ideology if we are to succeed as a nation. We see from Zimbabwe we cannot eat ideology, it does not generate wealth only subservience to the party.
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After almost 30 years in power, Mugabe still blames colonialism for all of Zimbabwe's ills. I can only hope that people like Afrikaner eventually see the light.....
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The ANC will save us!
Boers will not be the only ones enjoying Prime Land in SA
The same Boers are very quick to use the Bible.
At some point there even convinced they thought of themselves to be some gods chosen people.
I like how they agree with me but then refuse to REMEDY the INJUSTICE!!
LAND OWNERSHIP
How long must we the Blacks be patient with them?
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Until there is a viable economic alternative.
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While some philosophize about the future of South Africa, others are living in the reality of the present. For some, including many politicians the strike has been no more than an inconvenience because their children attend private schools and they can afford private hospitals. For some the strike has become a nightmare. For pupils about to write their final examinations the strike has placed their future in jeopardy. For the sick their lives are at stake. The callousness with which the strikers have responded to the suffering of others is of grave concern. Mothers have been prevented from entering hospitals to feed their children, there have been unnecessary deaths, the elderly cannot obtain prescribed medication and a veil of secrecy clouds the full extent of this misery. The call to desist from intimidation falls on deaf ears and the interdict forbidding those providing essential services goes unheeded. Now we are anxiously waiting to see if the police and military will join the strike and complete the anarchy. Alan Paton now the country is truly crying.
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Afrikaner,
listen to Benmaxius. He talks sense not emotion. We will loose all that is left to loose from South Africa, if it turns to emotions and not controlled rational decisions and all will loose.
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Here it is. Let the land be taken or distributed. Then everyone will have a job. That is one sole job and that will be to survive. You won’t need a job to buy a BMW and the like. What I find interesting is that, the Western powers are detested so much for what they have done in the past. What type of vehicles do the leaders drive who detest the developed countries so much? How much tax money have they spent on their suits?
Do we all want our own piece of land to feed just ourselves with no economy no modern luxuries and to fend for ourselves.Should we not all live in skins of animals and live off mother nature? Will there be enough skins to cover the nation or meat to feed the nation and all its children. Will there be enough wood to burn for our food and warmth. We cant expect to have comforts like electricity.
Do we accept inequality like the divide between the poor and the rich.There will be those who “own” the land and produce to sell and those who work on the land, bending to the development of the world; to economies, development, inequality.
It seems with so called “development” there is the need to get a job for money to feed your mouth to cover yourself with a roof, to pay taxes for and contribute to an "economy".
Or would we prefer no development and a shared equality. A subsistence life it will be.
But looking at history we are human and there is no equality. Eventually there will be greed the week struggle etc etc. We can’t have a subsistence lifestyle and drive a BMW unless you built it yourself. But with subsistance and equality materialism would and should become irrelevant.
Yes this is the question! What do we want which is the lesser of two evils?
That’s just my twisted thought for the day.
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@ Dawn,
Your reference to Alan Paton's 'Cry the beloved country'unfortunately has no merit within the context of your post. Perhaps you should read it again.
@ NWH
The land issue in South Africa has some merit, unfortunately the ANC's land reform is failing. The current policy is based on a willing seller willing buyer model. Add to that, that not all land in South Africa was appropriated through violent and forceful means. They must take into consideration historical documents and tribal histories to ensure legitimate claims. In areas where land was distributed, those fertile farmland is lying vacant, due to the fact that the government is unable like on so many areas to pull through and do it properly. The government does not provide the required training and development for the resettled communities to progress farming on to a commercial scale.
In the Western Cape, governed by the DA, cooperative societies were formed between disadvataged communities and land-owners. Instead of appropriating the land, they were given shared ownership through shares. They continue to work the land, receive training, and participate in decision making processes. In most instances these individuals went on to sit on the Executive Board of these commercial farms. The participate on all levels, it empowers them, it ensures development and a greater exposure to potetial off-set markets. The success rate in the Western Cape is much higher compared to the the success rate in other provinces governed by the ANC.
The analogy that you made of what I assume africans driving BMW or wearing western suits, and going back to subsistance farming and wearing skins, I must say is not appropriate for making good argument. All it does is denotes a sense of superiority on your part. It seems you look down on the cultural heritage of the African way of life pre-colonial era. Let me remind you that indeed the Eurpean or Western civilization had gone through pretty much the same machinations. It is prudent to always base good argument on fact, understanding and respect.
@ Afrikaner
I understand your frustration with the slow process of land reform. I am not an Afrikaner myself, but regardless of the ill they have done to South Africa, we must show them UBUNTU. They are part of South Africa in all ways, its history, its independence from Britain, its development, its Apartheid, its Struggle and now its democracy. The African way brother is to forgive. South Africa needs them, show them that Africans are better than they were in the Apartheid years. Show them love and compassion and forgiveness, the same way Desmond Tutu has shown us.
Again, there are more greater issues facing South Africans apart from land reform, such as crime, education, jobs, health, housing, rural development etc...
I remember a scene in the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven' Where the Baron of Ibly replied to the King's sister after she had said that he had made an oasis out of his plot of desert... He said ' What worth is it to have land, if I do not make it better'
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There are greater issues facing South Africa! Ok then why is Zimbabwe the way it is? Why has Israel and Palestine been fighting for decades. Why is it that since the beginning of time it has been in our human interest to conquer land? Why was there colonisation? Why was WWI and WWII fought? Whoever has power and influence over the land choose the type of life one lives may it be prosperous or needy. Africa depends on the earth from its mineral wealth, agricultural richness to its tourism. Africa can be a continent that competes with the powers of the world it just needs the right people to do it.
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as a community worker in the rural areas of South Africa i would like to point out that the land that i am teaching people to work is the most fertile in the country it also has over 1500mm of annual rainfall.
i have set up life skill centers to empower people to participate in the development of there own water and sanitation methods, there own food production security and nutrition as well as in the development of there own housing and energy systems. It is my belief that once people can sustain themselves they will approach life from a mindset of desire and not need. The land that i am referring to is also the most underused in the country.
i believe the largest colonialization of Africa is taking place right now. greedy corporates have bought enormous acreage setting up bio-fuel plants that takes up land that should be yielding food. in Ethiopia huge hydroponic farms are feeding the UAE. Africa stands by and watchers selling themselves short, until Africa learns to say no it will continue. lets start getting people to rediscover themselves and there cultures through sustaining themselves, there families and communities.
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@ NWH
South Africa is not Zimbabwe! In the 2009 Africa Cup of Nations in Angola when the Togo team was attached the entire world gave it as reason that SA should not host the WC. What I am trying to say, is that we must move away from the perception that Africa is one country.
SA is very different from Zimbabwe based on te following -
1) We have successful free and fair multi-party elections and regularly change our president. In Zim once Mugabe was elected he did his best to stay in power.
2) We have the most progresive constitution, not only on the continent but probably in the world.
3) We obtained our freedom and democracy through negotiations, not through victory in battle.
4) We have established category 9 institutions that monitor government and our fundemental rights. e.g. NGO's, Church and religious institutions, Human Rights Commision, Judiciary, Constitutional Court, IEC, Public Auditor etc.
5) The common history that defines South Africans are different than that of Zim
There are many more examples that can be presented. In my soul I believe that SA will be the shining example of the continent and the world for that matter. We have such potential. When our democracy was in its infancy, just as a child it was obedient. Now our democracy is a teenager, and as any teenager it will do silly things and rebel, but when we move into adulthood, we will see such change.
We have many issues. We should look towards solving them, not looking towards what a wayward neighbour has done with the opportunities it had, and squandered. I believe that even in Zim things will change very soon, and for the better.
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The hunger to return the land to it's 'original inhabitants' is a deep emotional issue for black Africans, it's not rational, they see it as a panacea for all their ills and it is being used as an idealogical crowbar to redress the injustices of the past by the current leadership. It's a chimera though, luring us to our doom. The land should be worked by those who can make it profitable for the benefit of all regardless of race. This should be done fairly and equitably like some instances in the Western Cape, that I have read in this blog. That seems the best way forward to me. We need to create a diverse class of commercial farmers not an army of peasant subsistence farmers.
Zuma has stated he wants to move SA from a developing nation into a developed nation. In developed nations only a tiny portion of the population is involved in agriculture, it's hardly going to generate any employment at all, less than 3% of the US population is involved in agriculture and they generate some of the largest surpluses on earth.
What SA needs is mass employment for unskilled and semi skilled labour, or generational patience while the masses tool up to developed nation status, but for that we need a functional education system, which we do not have right now. Modern farming methods that can compete in a global market and generate foreign exchange and tax revenue do not answer the urgent need for mass employment. The question of land redistribution then becomes more idealogical and emotional than economic and practical.
There is no real history of agriculture above subsistence level among the historically pastoral races of South Africa. Unless you count the white Afrikaners as indigenous, which I suspect will drive most black Africans to apoplexy.
J. M Coetzee explores the relationship between the individual and the land and the dynamic between the white and black African in the 'Life & Times of Michael K'. One sees it as an opportunity for independence from hunger and need, the other as a means to a commercial end. What is the social purpose of land ownership above having a place to live? This is the question that needs to be asked. If it is political we are all in trouble, if it is economic then we might still have a chance.
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Benmaxius, i find your academic tone extremely naive of the actual problems on the ground. you approach the issue from a Western understanding and try to in-force a capitalist solution which is annoying. evidently capitalism is failing in the West so why should Africa perpetuate a failing system.
in true academic form you approach the issue from a symptomatic level, safe and once again extremely naive. the problems on the Cape Flats stem from where over 90% of the people creating an environmental and social disaster come from- rural Eastern Cape. yet is does not serve the capitalists or politicians to address the problem at the roots because the problems are deep and no one really wants to go there.
i will attempt to address this issue and hopefully you will give it some thought as a humanitarian. the diss-connectiveness with the self that permeates through South Africa starts at grassroots or foundation level and is were the social poverty stems from. everything has been imposed upon- from the belief system (Qamata) to leadership to nutrition (maze comes from central America introduced into Africa around 1650) system of trade etc etc the value of human life has degenerated to the value of a cell phone for that is what people often loose their lives for. until people of Africa take responsibility (50%) for allowing this to happen Africa will never take ownership and move forward. Transition in South Africa was quick and a lot of skills were lost, please consider a step backwards to move forward often a lot quicker the allowing the center to fall in. people need to be able to identify themselves with more than glitz from the West or unsustainable bling from the East. Africas problems are solvable i have no doubt, but imposing ideas were ones own backyard is not exactly in order is grossly arrogant. right now the West should be far more concerned about shifting their way of living for it is my humble belief that the present centralized system cannot survive without cheap fuel which is fast running out, the question is, are people prepared to change themselves in order to adapt? or will they continue to decimate the very organ that keeps us alive, the earth
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It's not clear what you are suggesting Luke, other than that people should change in some way and that there is an unspecified problem that nobody wants to deal with which has it roots in the disconnected rural communities of the Eastern Cape. Can you be more explicit on what the problem is and the nature of the change you seek?
I can only speculate as to what the problem might be and what this change you seek might entail. I have read Credo Mutwa's 'Indaba my Children' and understand the concept of Qamata. He is the child of the sun god, Thixo, and the earth goddess, Jobela. It's the cosmological foundation myth that underpins Xhosa culture and their relationship to the land. I am not sure how it relates to your argument about capitalism being the root of all evil though. My understanding of it supports the argument that black Africans feel bound to the land in a way westerners do not. However, in a globalised society where everybody else is surging ahead, I can't see the benefit of going backwards in order to go forwards. Onward ever onwards we must go, life moves in only one direction, nobody gets younger.
Your assertion that life on the Cape Flats has no more value that a cell phone indicates to me that this is a society deprived of material wealth. I have spent time in Gugulethu and Nyanga and while Capitalism may not be pretty is does offer the best opportunity of generating wealth for individuals. A vibrant entrepreneurial spirit is alive and kicking in these locations.
I stick to my guns, SA needs to create mass employment and agriculture will not answer that need. Western capitalism is in no way collapsing, that's simply wishful thinking, crisis is the natural condition of capitalism and I dare say life itself, it thrives on change which is the necessary process of economic natural selection that creates a better beast. Don't go down an economic evolutionary dead end, we all know what happened to the passenger pigeon and the Dodo. We are South Africa not Uganda.
We have been hearing about the fall of capitalism since the Bolsheviks caused so much chaos in 1917 and the Chinese collectivised their society in 1948. Both of which have rejected that economic model in favour of free market policies.
If the problem you are coyly skirting around is the issue of poor skills, overpopulation and rampant over consumption, I agree with you, it's a millstone around our necks, but I would suggest you are the one being naive if you think that is going to change any time soon. Creating a class of peasant land owners will only exacerbate the problem and pander to a pre industrial mythology that is not fit for purpose. If that's the change you suggest then again I concur.
The best and most practical solution for the short and medium term is for the SA government to focus on creating wealth generating opportunities for all South Africans. The more liberated and materially endowed a society is the less violent it is and the less it reproduces itself, don't underestimate the virtue of material selfishness in a post modern era.
South Africa has a population of some 50 million, a tiny drop in the ocean compared to that of China or India. We could all vanish from the face of the earth tomorrow and it would make almost no difference tio what the world consumes. To revert to some Pol Pot year zero agricultural dystopia while the likes of India and China continue to hoover up the worlds resources will only make us their minions.
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i have worked in the field of rural sustainable development for many years in several African countries including Uganda and Malawi. the reason i choose these two as examples is to try and illustrate the different types of poverty that exist. Malawi after BAT exited over night and assisted with the poor farming methods incorporated under the Banda dictatorship plunged into financial poverty. the ability of the poor and homeless to organize themselves and develop sustainable communities was inspiring.
The ethnic cleansing of the Ancholli people in Northern Uganda (formaly Southern Sudan) which in my opinion is still happening under the Museveni regime (dictatorship?) is a classic case of post traumatic stress, where you have one of the most naturally abundant and diverse environments yet people starve.
South Africa has a social poverty that in my humble opinion is the hardest to address, unless you have a really big couch. my modus operandi is to live among the people and observe before a process of repatriation or rehabilitation can be addressed. i do not enter any community with preconceived notions.
i witness every day the young women returning from the vibrant Cape Flats an alarmingly high percentage as prostitutes or victims of rape mostly all pregnant and mostly with HIV. i witness every day people searching for unpolluted water and have tried to highlight this on youtube etc but get no assistance, i am really tired of burying children who have died from water born illnesses like cholera.
i set up life skill centers to get young adults to participate in the building of there own toilets etc to educate on building skills as well as taking ownership of sanitation systems (i hope you do not assume firstly that there are an adequate amount of toilets and secondly that people automatically understand how they work).
i do the same for food and nutrition. if people wish to go off and become entrepreneurs as you suggest they do it from desire and not need because the basics of sustainable living have been addressed first.
not even i am arrogant to propose to be able to help a man i know in Uganda that was forced to eat his own child, but once he has access to clean water a balanced meal and a sturdy roof over his head, he can choose his own repatriation thereafter if he so wishers.
another thing that really pisses me off is the desire to turn a dollar a day farmer into a ten dollar a day farmer and make him dependent on a failed monetary system, which is were i beg you to consider the recent "bail out" situation in the USA as the end of the free market system, in fact i consider it as very Social. the fact that in the US this year in the region of 110 banks have closed down.
time to take your arrogant head out the sand and consider that the disney land that you choose to reside in is unsustainable and fast collapsing.
or of coarse you can continue to observe from afar
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Luke I take cognisance of your definition of social poverty, please don't think me arrogant, it's not my intention to be confrontational. I do however remain a true believer in free market capitalism and think it would be a disaster for SA or any individual to opt out of the monetary system. I still believe that in SA it would be better to provide opportunities to make money to buy food than provide land to grow food, you can't evacuate money from the equation we are well beyond that point. If we create a peasant farmer class, that's where they will remain and we will join the ranks of Pakistan and other nations mired in perpetual poverty, we need to think bigger and bolder than that.
That notwithstanding, we have wandered off topic a bit, the core of this thread is whether SA is ready for a 'Thatcher moment' or will it lurch left and bring about 'The end Capitalism'. I shudder to think how the ending of Capitalism will be brought about and it's implications on social poverty. History has not been kind to nations that have taken that route.
Yes, Anglo Saxon Casino Capitalism has taken a blow recently, but the wealthy nations have suffered greater blows in the past and bounced back stronger than before. WWII for example, where taxes in the UK reached 90% for the wealthy and 75% in the US. We are nowhere near that now. The system is bruised, but nowhere near collapsing. If 110 banks have gone bust then they were bad banks and we are well rid of them, but it does not mean financial Armageddon is at hand, it's just the way the system works. There are vast reserves of untapped private wealth in the world. We just don't have the political necessity to access it, no doubt if we do, we will. The system may be going through a correctional phase, but capitalism will outlive both you and I, it's not going to collapse any time soon.
Getting back to your point on Social Poverty, Humans are indeed social creatures, our social institutions include religion and government, in this context human behaviour is rarely entirely individual, it is affected by our social setting, our wealth or poverty is generally determined by these social influences. There are areas in the Cape Flats that are as grim you describe, there are others that are not. I see that you are engaging with a real problem, trying to ensure basic needs are met so that vulnerable people move from a situation of desperate need to one of individual agency. For that you have my respect, it's not something I could do, it would break me to see the kind of suffering you describe.
Nevertheless, I reiterate, South Africa is not Uganda, or Malawi for that matter. SA is a wealthy country by any standard and I just can't see how, in an SA context, substance farming will benefit anybody. We are well beyond that point, as President Zuma says, we have aspirations of becoming a developed nation, not a developing one. We need workers in the system paying taxes and generating surplus, substance farmers generate no surplus and pay no tax, subsequently they are of little value to the state. I am just being real here, don't get mad at me or call me names please.
Confucius says: "In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." 530 BCE. The dialectic of wealth and poverty are perennial issues and have been with us since civilization emerged.
In SA we are ashamed on both sides, we have both great wealth and great poverty existing side by side. The same country where children die for lack of clean water produced the likes of myself and Mark Shuttleworth, and of course let's not forget the Julius Malemea's. It's a maddening dichotomy.
My concern is South Africa, not Uganda or Malawi, I don't have citizenship to these nations, I do with South Africa, these are my people that are suffering and I think the best way to help them is to provide them with employment, not a plot of land to grow food on. The risks in engaging with the global monetary system, volatile as it is, is no greater than the risk of dealing with the vagueness of nature. Your approach may be good for Malawi and Uganda, but SA is far more developed than these nations and therefore capable of much more. We need a great leap forward not a great leap backwards.
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my apologies for being rude, i do not know when you were last here but what i am witnessing in the rural areas is not far off and in fact in some cases worse than Malawi. Ben (if that is your name?) i live it every day and it is completely heartbreaking. take an example like Nyandeni municipality you have this modern two story building that gets an annual budget of 48 million rand. this money goes to paying salaries and about ten percent finds its way into actually doing some kind of municipal work (mostly totally in-appropriate). two stories of over weight ignorant people who eat all day and surf the internet for conferences to goto to eat more. outside in the parking lot are the latest cars and SUV's all lined up; Mercs, Audi tt's the lot (these same people are now striking and demanding more). beyond the fence people have no water no sanitation and ultimately have lost complete dignity.
and so again i propose we start with the basics, because we are only as strong as our weakest link and, my friend, that weakest link is steeped in poverty not this wealth you speak of. South Africa has slipped back big-time.
i work with the traditional councils and re-looking at there ancient system of governance and it is not what you and i (take it we are of similar age) were taught at school, but a system of support and not control. unfortunately today chiefs are paid by the ruling party and have become pawns, but there is a group of us who are trying to change this, idealistic? yes. i am trying to put co-operative systems in place that do involve money. which brings me to that point- as a system of exchange i have no problem with money, it can be quite functional, it is the greed that i take issue with and i am witnessing such savage greed that it makes a party of rabid vultures and hyenas squabbling over a rancid carcass look tame. from my tone it is easy to see that i am bitter, i am bitter because essentially i am doing the municipalities work just more sustainably at the same time trying to restore a sense of dignity. unfortunately people out there, and i become judgmental of you here, only want to see these folk turned into entrepreneurs without the basics been taken care of first, so having not received funding for over six months i am unable to continue- which means closing my school and life skill centers that actually are making huge inroads to restoring dignity and a sense of self. Trying to make these same people dependent through debt etc is not the way, yet that is what is going on through funeral schemes etc.
i feel we are probably hogging this blog and starting to bore people, if you really are interested feel free to search my name and we can converse further and not expose the broader BBC readership to my sorry tirade.
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Not a problem Luke, I understand your frustration, it is a situation tha evokes high emotion, it's the same sense of hopelessness that drove me out of SA when I realised the goal of the ANC was not to uplift the people but to uplift themselves, leaving the vast majority to rot in squalor.
I was horrified when I was approached by BEE cadres sniffing around my company looking for equity transfers, when I already had a perfectly equitable non racial employment policy and a well developed training programme. That wasn't enough for them, they wanted ownership of what I had created with my own capital and effort. They had the air of arrogant gangsters about them. I refused to engage with them on their terms and lost the contracts that sustained my workforce on account of it.
These same contracts were passed onto a BEE company run by a well connected party cadre and was driven into the ground within a few months through rampant corruption and mismanagement. They paid themselves far more than I ever paid myself and created top heavy management structure packed with ANC cadres and killed the company through extracting all the profit for themselves. The company folded resulting in unnecessary loss of employment. They took a perfectly viable and sustainable organisation that employed a good number of people in good conditions and destroyed it through greed and mismanagement. They just couldn't abide by the fact that I was white and running the show, it offended them deeply.
To us use a South African term - 'I went bossies' threw my toys out of the cot, liquidated what I had left and headed for the airport. I was accused of being a 'racist' and not being committed to 'transformation'. I was left reeling and confused, in one fell swoop they negated everything I had fought for since the 80's. I find SA a far too frustrating environment to do business in. The levels of corruption, greed and self interest are so staggering it defies description. You will notice I mention no names and deal in only generic descriptions, I still have family in SA and I genuinely fear that if I point and name they will be targeted, this is what it has come to, and so quickly. it's as if the men from BOSS never left, they are just big fat black men rather than big fat white men, same dog different smell.
This may sound callous but I don't want to help any more, I have become a critic not a participant. I risked my life in the 80's many times on behalf of the struggle. I had no idea what I was struggling for was greed and corruption, had I known that I wouldn't have bothered.
The only reason I bang on about the free market and entrepreneurship is that it can exist outside of government funding and control and therefore has a chance of making it and actually succeeding. I suspect we are of an age, I matriculated in 1987. I only learnt about SA tribal structures when I studied Economics, Anthropology and Politics in the UK. I understand your point that turning political slaves into debt slaves is not the answer, one is just as bad as the other, if not worse.
This the prefect forum for a discussion such as this, I am certain that the wider BBC audience is interested in our discourse, it's good that this is brought into the light of day for all to see the problems that exist in SA. Perhaps it may shame the government and their minions into behaving like human beings and not predatory gangsters.
Good luck with our endeavours I wish you the best and I hope that you succeed in making difference with your approach. I failed in mine, all that's left for me after my bitter experience is to remain at a distance to coldly de-construct and lay bare the inadequacies of the current regime, that's what bitter beaten critics do.
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I am really astounded that considering what the public sector earns as a salary, that they are asking for a pay rise. What the government should really be looking is is raising the basic pension that old people are earning in South Africa. Most of the pensioners in the country have contributed all of their lives for R1000.00 a month. How can anyone in the country live on that sort of money. I honestly think that it an impossible feat, but yet they are forced to do so. Then the public sector that is earning ... not very sure on the exact amount, but very much more than R1000.00 a month are on strike for a pay rise.
What should the pensioners do? People would laugh at them if they went on strike, someone should have the courage to put a load of pensioners somewhere in a position to cause some major blockage to that the government would take their plight seriously.
Lawrence
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It is clear from the debate on this blog that we can surmise that one of the most pressing issues facing South Africa is related to the socio-economic situation. The issue in SA is very complex, and we have to look at our colonial history, the Apartheid era, and our birth as a democratic nation in a whole, in order to objectively analyze where and how thing went wrong, and identify a firm and structured policy moving forward.
In 1991 a scientist by the name of Francis Fukuyama paid a visit to SA, and he had looked in detail to the economic issues facing the country. One model he looked at and disgarded was the German model, based on the economic policies of the newly unified Germany, where the rich west, easily absorbed the east, in a sense the west became more poor, and the east more rich, so in a manner of speaking there was a win/lose situation. But that West was so wealthy that the sacrifices would be limited until the east managed to get to be on a relative par with the west, and then once on common ground, economically grow together.
In the SA context this option was entirely out of the question, since SA was a country split into a relative 1st world section of roughly around 5 million, and a 3rd world out of the remaining 40 million. It was believed at the time by many in SA that it was a 1st world country. When in actual fact it was a middle-income developing country on par with Mexico and Poland. It was clear that to redistribute wealth from the 5 million wealthy section of society it would not amount to bringing the remaining population up to 1st world standards. This quite apart from the effect that massive redistribution in itself, and the consequent undermining of property rights would have had on the ability to create further wealth.
The other option most suitable for SA was a method similar to that used by Latin America, where it was understood that wealth first needs to be created and then once achieved a fair redistribution could take place. The issue here is that the ANC in all fairness was for many decades a freedom movement; its main objectives were to bring about a free, fair and non-racial society in SA. They had not paid very much attention to their economic policies; these were influenced half heartedly by soviet ideologies with a strong Marxist-Leninist flavour. Therefore in all respect the Latin model quite honestly passed the ANC by without so much as a second glance.
What contributes to the current economic problems is the massive loss of human capital. The brain drain on SA only slows economic growth further. What is needed is a regulated fair trade economy. Not free trade based on Ultra-Capitalist principles that exploit resources and society for extreme financial profits, a system that fuels the greed of shareholders and that maintains a total disregard for the welfare of society, a system that has proven to cause much damage to economies the world over dumping financial powerhouses into the worst recession since the 1930's. Unchecked Capitalism, has the same effects as unchecked Totalitarian Communism, minus the suppression and loss of life, plus the suffering of poverty. In Communism, everything is communally shared; even poverty and people come accept it as standard. In Capitalism, the impoverished are always reminded of their lot, it will stare them always in the face, a reminder that they are poor, some are rich. This leaves a simmering pressure pot of resentment, anger and aggression, ready to explode at any time.
I touched on a similar issue in the below -
http://therevolutionaryhumanist.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-democracy-for-prosperous-south_13.html
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@ the revolutionary humanist, i think the time for debate (our prez favorite) analyzing, hypothesis, etc is over. sitting back and tossing a bunch of clever words together is not going to cut it. the time for action is now, we see the failings all around us, have done the postmortem a million times read all the gripes on blogs and news forums. things will not change unless we are prepared to move outside the confines of our programming, question our very thoughts and set about a coarse of action that counters the current trends, things will truly fall apart. education, basic infrastructure, nutrition, water and sanitation - things a lot of us take for granted are not in place to a vast amount of people living in this supposed developed or developing country, and until they are we are not addressing the core issues of the problems. i urge you as a fellow South African to start putting into action your lofty words because until that happens they will remain just that, words.
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interesting comments.....isn´t a big problem here the differing cultures, e.g. so many people leaving the land for the cities in the hope of finding the streets paved with gold, only to end up in shacks without water in unhygienic conditions, my last visit to my brother deep in the transkei blew me away seeing kids on the side of the road all with cellphones, bizarre....education was a joke, the kids packed off in their school uniforms with one notebook......teenage pregnancies and very important the inroads made by the sa breweries black label, the quality of life in the tk has gone down, traditional structures decimated, people have lost pride in their way of life, are losing this connection with the land, their only cash crop is still banned (cannabis) so even now people are still leaving the land to go to the cities, but there are no jobs.....its not about going backwards,we are looking forward, looking at sustainable futures, ours is an international movement and we have to move now, we don´t reject entrepreneurial skills but we experience in our daily lives the misery that corporate capitalism thrives on, ravaging the land and reducing people to blind consumers of bling, the onslaught coming through our televisions, drugs, pop music, julius malemas etc, integrity and morals thrown to the wayside....looking at new ways of conserving the traditional lifestyle but with the insights of modern science, we have different sides of the argument ( economic development versus sustainability and quality of life ) but at the end of the day we are nothing without our beautiful planet earth, who wants to live in a row of matchbox houses in an ugly industrial area when you can live in a mud hut in verdant surroundings and go fishing? yes, many people choose the former, and many people are starting to see through the lie, nowadays i can live in my hut in the hills and have electricity if i so choose with a clean solar panel, i can surf the internet.....why not go for the best of both worlds.....luke, you´re the man, don´t give up, the vast majority
of peoples on our planet are dirt poor, and rely on the land, capitalism has spread some wealth undeniably, but at what cost, and it is unsustainable....check out china´s new "wealth" and read here on the bbc about the world´s longest traffic jam....planetary deadlock!!! lots of love to all you peeps out there in blog land who only want the best for all peeps.....asinamali man! outernationally, we want the land returned to us so we may work it, in peace, and harmony, and community, no more ism and schism, seen! nah wan nah politrickshun!
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@ luke boshier
Indeed I agree with your comment to put action to words. But debate is essential too. To just act could bring about an even greater disaster. I am still young, still at university and I participate as much as I possibly can, making use of all platforms available. I am in contact with certain members of the DA opposition, also recently had a debate with pres. Zuma's spokesperson Zizi Kodwa here on the BBC World Service programme 'Africa have your say', including other diplomats on a regular basis. This dialogue also exposes me to the opinions of others, and it also broadens my understanding and increases my knowledge.
It is my belief that whatever little effort I put into discussions here, and into my blog, that it would open further opportunities where I might be better able to serve my country and my people. Who knows what the future will hold.
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Now you can see all the boer teams chrozing from one side to another just because they don’t face any challenge, the soon someone put the truth on them they run aware and post no more, they work in partnership posting pages and pages hitting the same whole Continuously. Guys good luck!!! Keep thanking Andrew Harding and his dirty unfair tactics. you can insult and use any vocabulary you want and your comments will be there, but we the soon we respond on even medium of your attack our comments will permanently removed, that is why I don’t have the feelings to respond your garbed up there because what is the benefit of spending time to write but going to be remove after few minutes?
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Will someone who has had a positive experience with the current SA government (The ANC) please post a comment so that Mze-djimba can climb off his myopic soap box and engage in real debate. Mze-djimba if you are covertly referring to me, I haven't run away, I have made my contribution and will continue to do so when I have something valid to contribute. But I am not going to spend my days refuting you just because you are wrong.
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@ mze-djemba
Quite clearly you entirely brainwashed into state of incredible denail and suffer greatly from illusions of grandeur. I am unable to discern anywhere here anything even vaguely 'boer'ish. Your comments project the worst type of racism. Instead of rallying against the BBC or individuals here on this forum from an entirely baseless conviction, put your efforts to better use and rally against the poverty and corruption that bring misery to the lives of millions on non 'boer' citizens.
And lastly, you have a choice, you do not need to comment here, you do not have to read the BBC, so in all fairness if you are unable to objectively debate with reason, please try to excert some control and spare yourself the embarrassment.
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@ Benmaxius
Im a Nigerian and i've had a good experience with the ANC.
(1) I can Visit SA without being called Kaffira.
(2) It is criminal for "visitors"(boer) to tell the owner of the house where to sit or sleep.
(3) Mandela is Free
(4)Africa is free
(5)A black man is now among the top wten wealthiest people in SA
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.
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you talk about Blacks not being able to rum massive farms;
If you are lousy in bed, is it okay for me to sleep with your wife to teach you?
And NO!! it is not racist to ask a guest(who has overstayed his welcome) to leave!
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the last 2 comments i read are soooo sad, boers are not visitors, no, you, a nigerian, are a visitor, and the facts on the ground are certainly not in your favour, re:criminal statistics,nigerian drug cartels etc....when out in sa i experienced crime and the first thing asked was "were they nigeys?"...this is a sad fact, as of course there are many law abiding nigerians in the country...when someone is born in the u.s.a. they are automatically given citizenship,the right wingers will complain that they may not be W.A.S.P.s, and we will all shout loudly that they are racist...why are your comments to be treated differently? the spanish under the yoke of the romans had their rebellion and fought for their freedom,and all the great things the romans brought were smashed and it took spain centuries to rebuild, we humans tend to be so proud that we would rather be ruled by a despot of our own race than a benign ruler of another...sometimes understandable but in the long run just reactionary....have you also had a holiday in zimbabwe? what is the great attraction about s.a.? is it perhaps the fact that the country is far more developed,open,with opportunities to make money? why are there so many nigerians coming down to sa, and so many africans risking their lives to come to europe? i spent time in apartheid jails and had endless arguments with racists, i remember myself saying how well zimbabwe was going, i can´t say that anymore...the wealth in south africa has been created by the white man, it´s a fact of life...black africans were exploited by the old system, but don´t forget there was no written language before the white man came, where would africa be today without writing? how are we to defend ourselves from the international capitalists without it, without some sort of legal order? (i know its a paradox)fact of the matter is i have experienced racism from both black and white, no one country has a monopoly on fools, like weeds they grow everywhere....on the surface one can be glad that the old nationalist party is gone, but the anc has got a taste of power and likes it, and things are going downhill, fast...in my home town of port elizabeth tap water is no longer safe, the rich all buy bottled water but what about the poor? what about the incredible riots 2 years ago against foreigners? pure racism when somali shopowners are gunned down? racists and bigots are gaining control as the frustration mounts....get off your high horse...and to get back on topic, which "thatcher moment"? when she went too far and london exploded into the poll tax riot? the capitalist system is in its death throes and seeking to pull as many people as possible down with it, i remember when the anc had a manifesto which proclaimed that the land shall be owned by those who work it....hah! i´m all for reparations but the only way forward is through education and hard work, there is no quick fix, western technology was largely adopted from the islamic world, civilizations come and go, learn from the europeans and make it your own...."everybody want to raid the barn, nobody want to plant the corn...."
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@ naija4life
You are right on many points, South Africa has opened up to the rest of Africa. Nelson Mandela and many other prisoners of conscience are free, we have have democracy, of a sorts, we are well on our way to creating a successful black middle class of capitalists and entrepreneurs. I read somewhere recently that 100 000 black South Africans are entering the middle classes every year. People like Cyril Rhampasposa and Tokyo Sexwale are, in my paradigm, shining lights and an example to all, I have a huge respect for what they have achieved, if I could achieve a portion of what they have already, I would consider my life a success. The environment for this was created by the ANC. Without the ANC it's unlikely any of this would have come to pass. Mze-djimba, these are things to be proud of, it's not all doom and gloom. The ANC should focus on creating an environment of opportunity.
I may be critical, but I try not be negative, I have no wish to see South Africa fail. If you refer to my comment on land ownership, I suggested that if there were a class of black commercial farmers that can compete with the current Boers, they should be deployed now and that assistance would come form unexpected parts.
I also pointed out that there was no culture of large scale agriculture among historically pastoral people, the same applies for Switzerland, by the way. I have seen many modern large scale farming operations in Tanzania and Kenya managed successfully by black Africans.
I am not suggesting that there is a lack of capability among the black people in SA to become successful commercial farmers. There is a lack of opportunity and ability though, being capable but not able is frustrating. White farmers are able to be profitable and successful because they have access to capital and have experience. They send their sons to agricultural college and talk about it at the dinner table. That in combination with the land makes them successful, it's part of their culture. Acquiring land alone is not enough, you have to acquire the other elements as well to be able to make a profit from the land.
I am critical of the ANC because I hold it to a high standard. The ANC I grew up with was led by intellectual giants of impeccable moral character that garnered a huge reserve of international good will. That's my starting point. One need only compare the Youth League leaders of today with those of the past, put Julius Malema up agiainst Walter Sisulu or Oliver Tambo, what's happened, where are the giants today? If the current incumbents had represented the people of SA then, well, I'll leave that to the imagination in case I get accused of being a Boer or some like.
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While it might help some people emotionally to blame the old system, that does not actually fix anything.
Regardless of what happened in the past, only forward-looking action can actually fix anything.
It is also important to not be too hasty. While idealism might suggest that kicking white farmers off the land is the morally right thing to do, it is important to do things like this gradually so that the farms transition effectively and remain productive.
The same holds of affirmative action. It might be desirable to see important positions in various organisations being held by black people but don't do this at the cost of removing skilled people from these organisations. Doing so just destroys the organisations and fuels the "brain drain".
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Dear Afrikaner
I also am a Afrikaner, the white tipe, born in Pretoria, 43 years ago. I had no choice in being born there. I went to school, then university- where I had to borrow money from Volkskas, and it took me years to pay it back. I had to go to the Army, otherwise I would have to go to jail for 4 years. I earned my first paycheck in April 1994- does that day sound familiar? 10 April 1994?
I have to date not received my farm from any government. I did not receive any help in my 6 years of University studies- in fact, I paid exactly the same amount as black students.
I have not received a free house, free medical aid or free education for my children. What I have, I had to work for my whole life so far, just like anybody else in the rest of the world.
Meanwhile, back in sunny SOuth Africa, I have to endure comments like those of people like you. Because I am white (in which I also had no choice) I must be a visitor, a foreigner in Africa, someone who must leave his wealth for someone and just go away. Is that not just as racist as the Apartheid story? And where do you suggest I go? I was born here, I live here, and I try my best to be a good citizen. I do pay a hell of a lot of tax, so that your ANC cronies may drive a flashy BMW past me in my 9 year old Mazda. I can not buy the new MTN stock at discount price, because I am white. My children can not get Limpopo colours in sport, because it must be representative of the racial mix, and my children are white.
I wish South Africa could leave all the race issues behind for once and for all, and become a rainbow nation. I would love to be in a country where everybody were measured by their contribution to society, not the colour of their skin. But the pendulum has swung from white supremacy to black supremacy. It does not look as if I as a white man will ever be welcome in my country of birth. The future also looks bleak for my white boys, because of affirmative action. I will always carry the stigma of being a white Afrikaner male.
Dear Afrikaner, where do you suggest I go?
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I do take strong exception to Naija4life, born in Nigeria, visiting in South Africa, to call me a visitor in my country where I was born, because I am white. Implying he is more welcome than me, because he is black. That, in any civilized context, is racism. From my point of view black racism is just as poisonous and bad as white racism. Just as any black man do not have to be apologetic for being black, I have reached the point in my life where I will no longer feel guilty being a white, Afrikaner male in South Africa. I have never looked down on anybody because of race, I try to respect every person (until they show themselves not worthy of respect) and I try my best to be part of the solution of South Africa's problems- this is my country too, I was born here, and I am going nowhere. Just as we whites have to face up to racism, so some black people can also face up to their version of that curse of Africa.
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i guess BBc felt i was too honest in my last post and blocked my expressions.
@ Rooikoos
no one expects you to go anywhere, we just want you to act like there were people in SA before your ancestors came. I as 34 year old nigerian remmember emptying my piggy bank to help pay for schooling for Black S. Africans while their country was the richest country in Africa. Don't you think i have a right to be outraged!!
how many black kids were in your elementary school? did you insist on going to the same school with the black kids?
And NO! don't tell me it was in the past! (no one would ever tell a jew that the holocaust is in the "past").
Black people endured nasty comments like that for 400 years from Europeans; we have 350 years to go! Get used to it.
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@ naija4life
'act like there were people in SA before your ancestors came'
What pray tell does that actually mean, what sort of behaviour modification does that entail? Humility? Subservience? Guilt? I have met many Germans and none of them feel the slightest bit of responsibility for the Holocaust, that's a factious argument, where does it end?
Shall I as a UK citizen demand that Italians behave differently when in the UK because of the Romans? Should French people be humble in the UK because of the Normans, shall we demand reparations from Sweden and Norway because of the Vikings? Should the Romans demand payback from the Visigoths and Vandals. Should a black UK citizen be denied opportunity because I was here first?
You ideology cannot be applied universally, it depends on racial distinction and historic animosities and is therefore racist and retrogressive. Do you understand the inequity of racism and why it has been consigned to the dustbin of political history, or are you just sore that it happened to black people that whites historically hail from an industrial culture that is more ideally positioned in a global context to generate wealth, than say a iron age subsistence farming culture? You can't change history but we can change the future. Dispossessing a few million white Africans will make very little difference to the majority of black Africans in material terms, one only has to look at Zimbabwe to see that play out. We need a better smarter solution than being grumpy and bitter about a past that cannot be changed.
Does what you are suggesting apply to black people living in Europe, should they too remember that the whites were here first and make way for them in everyday life? Or are black Africans a special case and if so why, taking the above into account? There are more black people in the west than there are white people in Africa, how should they be treated? It's a unchangeable fact of history that a few hundred years ago industrial society crashed into an iron age society and caused problems, nobody is denying that, but it's not the first or the last time there has been a clash of cultures in this world.
Africa has made a career out of it's past misfortunes. Take a look around, Japan was nuked and came right, Germany was bombed back into the stone age and cut in two and it came right, when will Africa come right from it's misfortunes? Or is it just easier to blame it on the past and suck up as much foreign aid as possible. The west has pumped billions into Africa over the years, you guys have a fertile resource rich continent, get it right! Your starting point is far more advantageous than ours ever was. Bitterness is unbecoming and is no substitute for getting on with it.
Every country throughout history has suffered at the hands of 'others' who were either more aggressive, had technology that gave them an advantage or were simply more populous than the other. To hold the current white population of Africa responsible for the acts of past generations and designate them 'other' in the land of their birth is a retrogressive approach to the future and no good will come it. Your world view will inflame tensions and make Europe a less tolerant place, if the white minority are being treated badly in Africa what is there to stop the Black minority being treated badly in Europe by the common man? Your views will perpetuate racism not end it.
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40. At 2:02pm on 29 Aug 2010, Mze-djimba wrote:
...Keep thanking Andrew Harding and his dirty unfair tactics. you can insult and use any vocabulary you want and your comments will be there, but we the soon we respond on even medium of your attack our comments will permanently removed, that is why I don’t have the feelings to respond your garbed up there because what is the benefit of spending time to write but going to be remove after few minutes?...
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Mze-djimba, I agree with your view of Harding. You are right here 100 percent.
I've been myself following this BBC hack's output for some time now... I could write a lot about him here... but there's indeed no point as I will be censored promptly (as you yourself have discovered).
Maybe I will tell him (in my own inimitable way) what I think of him in person if and when I ever accidentally bump into him somewhere.
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All of a sudden White South Africans did not benefit from the White Minority Afrikaners Led Government of APARTHEID!!
Ja!!
No, I didn't benefit!!
Nobody not me!!
We all know the story!!
Who said Boers should leave SA?
Stay!
Just allow Government to Level the Play Ground!!
The ANC will lead us!!
Please Mr Jacob Zuma save us!!
Here Boers own 80% of Prime Land!!
ANC please save us!!
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I understand the Bitter Afrikaners (BOERS) and their comments!!
Yes you are not more being favored get used to it!!
This time you are not the Priviledged like during the APARTHEID REGIME!!
The Afrikaner (Boers) Led Govn. Failed us in SA
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When the Boers came here they brought the Bible in one hand and the Gun in the other!!
We accpeted them as people!!
And look what a Mess they made here!!
Now you have guys like Andrew Harding blaming anything ...
Why?
Maybe because he spends most of his time with Boers!!
Who most of them are Bitter about the ANC leveling the play ground!!
Delete my comments if you want!!
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http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/2010/08/2010831112927318164.html
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I try twice but seems like BBC blocked the links on the main comment and on the link up here. But people can just go to Aljazeera/English and then go to programs and then watch “Africa state of independents” episode one.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
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