Is it Christmas without the meat dinner?
It's a British tradition to eat meat at the Christmas meal.
Roast turkey, chicken, lamb and beef. Chipolata sausages wrapped in bacon. Duck, goose, pheasant and... turkey sandwiches, turkey sandwiches, turkey curry and more turkey sandwiches.
But there is an alternative. In the latest One Minute on The One Show, Justin Kerswell from vegetarian organistation Viva, tried to convince us to cut out the meat this Christmas.
He thinks that animals being killed for our dinners is not very Christmassy. He says that the average person eats over 11,000 animals in their lifetime - lives that could be saved if we replaced the meat with veg.
He also made the case that vegetarianism is good for the planet and better for your health. He says that vegetarians have lower rates of obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure and gallstones.
And if that's not enough, he also wants us to know that there are now lots of tasty alternatives to meat on the market.
The National Farmer's Union reply to Justin's film is: "Food is for enjoying, especially at this festive time of year, and the NFU would encourage shoppers to look out for the Red Tractor logo, to be reassured the food they are buying is British, has been reared to high standards of animal health and welfare and is traceable back to the farm gate."
Justin will be eating fake turkey meat at his Christmas meal. Will you? Add your comment.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
Comments
ill be having quorn turkey and stuffng , its lush and plenty of veg , im doing slimmingworld green days
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Keep your preaching to yourself thanks. If us carnovores didn't eat meat at christmas then eventually there would be an overpopulation of turkeys.
As for vegetarians being more healthy, not the ones I've seen.
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It is nonsense to say that if you don't eat meat, you will be saving animals.
If the demand is not there, the animals will not be bred.
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How ridiculous! If we want to eat meat at Christmas then eat meat we will! Jesus loved a bacon sandwich. I don't remember hearing about the miracle of the loaves and nut-roasts. I just slaughtered of our pet pigs in your honour Justin Kerswell. Viva la carnivore
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Justin says that 11,000 animals will be saved if we stop eating meat, but if we do stop those animals would not be born in the first place as a farmer would not breed them if he couldn't sell them at the end, so us meat eaters actually give them a life, it is the veggies that are not allowing them to have a life.
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Its curious that I only hear veggies and animal liberationists dictating at me about not eating meat.
I never here meat eaters running me down over my salad eating habits.
So tell the lettuce muncher to get off his orange box and I won't force feed him a pork chop
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Any wonder he is eating alone ???
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My son-in-law is a farmer. Don't you realise, you silly people (with respect) you won't be saving any animals because they simply won't ever be born! What farmer is going to grow cows and geese and sheep and turkeys simply for the pleasure of it? A farmer takes enormous pride in producing good meat. Don't detract from his expertise by suggesting that we all go veggie!
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Are you aware that Hitler was vegetarian???
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is the man a fool there would be no animals bred if we did not eat them so we would not be saving them if we did not eat them they would not be born or bred. Looks to me as if the one show is not supporting British Farmers tut tut!!!!
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If everyone was vegitarian the world would not be able to support the population. Eat meat and stop people starving.
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It`s turkey for me, pigs in blankets and all the rest.The animals that we eat are bred for this purpose so there is no harm.Veggies are weeklings, it`s been proven so, they are also pale, say no more.
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Michael Parkinson did a fantastic advert for a big supermarket which I saw today promoting the traditional christmas lunch and an alternative for his wife - Mary Parkinsion wouldn't prefer the veggie option now would she Michael?.......thumbs up to meat eaters!!!
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That is ridiculous! Christmas simply isn't Christmas without a traditional dinner!
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Oh my god I can't believe what i have just seen, 11000 animals would not be saved because they wouldn't have been bred to be saved in the foirst place. the man talks rubbish as for a healthier option i'd much prefer a nice pork chop and some nice veg to the processed packaged rubbish that alot of vaggies eat as shown on the clip. i mean what is eactly in veggie rashes???
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I didn't really have an opinion on the subject before this condescending bore and his bad jacket preached about cows farting and fake turkey dinners.
I am now going to go and order 2 turkeys for christmas day.
Lets all stop eating and look as healthy as this bloke? No thanks!
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I shall be eating turkey as usual, Justin says we would saving thousands of animals if we didn't eat meat, what would we do with ones we save?
Shirley, Bedfordshire
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I couldn't finish my tea as I was disgusted to hear a one sided view to the debate about eating meat. Those animals wouldn't even be here if they weren't going to be eaten so people eating meat aren't reducing the number of animals on this planet.
Farmers do a great job in looking after the Countryside and feeding the Country. If you've eaten today - thank a Farmer!!!!
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nearly all vegetarian made food have milk or lactose
which you cows for
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Hear hear! I'll be having a vegi xmas for the 4th time!! Killing animals doesn't make our christmas' better!!! And how can Christine say, "moving onto more pressing matters..."??? What's more important than the welfare of animals???
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if being a vegetarian is good for you then how come a few years ago, we had to rush our son to the hospital and they stated he needed to eat more meat, he was eating the average amount of meat that we were at the time and yet we were told he needed to eat more
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Your comment about 'saving' all these animals is false. If there was no market for their meat, they would not have been bred in the first place.
Also, if there were no calves bred, for either dairy or beef, there would be no milk.
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I think avoiding meat is utterly pointless. I was a vegetarian for 6 years but I was young and naive!
If everyone stopped eating turkey, they would all have to be slaughtered anyway as there was no reason keeping them. There would be no reason to breed them. As there are none roaming wild, at least in the UK, we would be come a turkeyless society.
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I'm appalled that the BBC use my licence fee money to allow some nutter to lecture me while I'm watching T.V.! It's none of your business what anyone eats, Christmas or not, and why is it that vegetarians try to make their disgusting food look like meat? Quorn turkey? Soya sausages? Veggie burgers? Give me a break!
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What a stupid idea. Tell the farmers of Britain that after the whole credit crunch, high summer fuel prices, failed crops and everything else that after all they have been through, we're not even going to bother eating the livestock they have raised??
And what of all the cows, chickens, turkeys etc? If they weren't raised for food then their numbers would not be controlled and they would become as extinct as the dodo. And they say most vegetarians do it because they love animals? well, obviously not that much if they would prefer for those animals to not exist in the first place!!
Bring on the turkey so I can gobble-gobble it up!
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I am a big meat eater but my husband isn't. I do tend to buy a lot of the verggie meat. It is tasty and my kids can't tell the difference. I think I might give it a go this xmas.
Who knows I might even feel a bit of a better person for saving a few oinks!
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i disagree that eating meat is bad!
the numbers animals farmed such as chickens, sheep, turkeys and cows would plummet if there was no need for them. If everybody became vegetarian, the animals would die out as nobody would wat to farm them- the business is already struggling!
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I have been vegetarian all my life. My mum makes a special "christmas pie" every year, it includes no meat but we certainly dont feel left out. We feel even happier to know that at our christmas we arent taking a life. I hope people take an interest in vegetarianism because I have had a brilliant experience with it.
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Surely we are helping the enviroment by eating the cows because they can't release there 'gases' if their dead. If we left them to be free then surely the problem would get worse.
I don't have anything against veggies but i don't suppose they are going to do a broadcast about eating meat during christmas, are they?
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Each to their own!!
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Vegetarians seem to think they are saving nimals by not eating them but who would keep cattle ,sheep , etc if they couldn't be sold for meat and where? How about your garden. Mind they are herd animals so you couldn't just have one.......
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I have been in the kitchen for 45 minuites making my first stew... beef stew. Dont think i fancy it anymore! :(
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If we all turned veggie we wouldn't be saving any animals, we'd in fact be condemming most farm animals to death.
No farmer is going to keep livestock that has no purpose.
The human body is designed to be omnivorous, that means eating some meat. If our primitive ancestors had been veggies we would never have developed the large brains we have and which make us humans.
I have nothig personal against veggies except when they try to force their personal opinions upon others. Please tell them to give it a rest!!!!!!!
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ILL STICK TO A TRUE ENGLISH XMAS, WITH ALL THE TRIMMINGS!! COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT HAPPENS TO THE 11000 ANIMALS THAT WILL BE SAVED?? I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE AND DO AS THEY PLEASE, AND NOT TO KEEP BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO.THEY WILL WANT TO BAN XMAS NEXT!!
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my son,whos 9 and i are both veggie and have a terrific dinner!this year we are having moroccan parcels..veggie xmas for us is just normal!
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bennem3 has hit the nail on the head. The only reason that Tommy Turkey lives is to be eaten at christmas and by eating meat we are ensuring that he has an existance.
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I think that the meat is the best part i would rather get rid of the veg.
simon
suffolk.
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My family's a big mix of vegetarians and non-vegetarians, and we usually eat fantastically at Christmas-time! We usually all chip in and make at least one thing each for Christmas dinner, which means that we have loads of delicious things to eat, we have the fun of cooking together, and, best of all, it means that it's not just one person slaving away in the kitchen all holiday.
Vegetarian meals don't necessarily mean eating fake meat, either - probably a fair proportion of the 'traditional' Christmas dinner is already vegetarian!
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If we all turned vegetarian. It will become overpoopulated with animals. Who really on vegetation so their will be less for us to eat. Gice me MEAT anyday. and stop preaching to us.
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What a load of bullocks! Not only would these animals not survive or even be bread in the first place but the inferance that Jesus had all these animals surrounding him in the stable after the comment from yet another of the BBC programmes namely QI suggesting that there is no proof at all that there where any animals at all in said stable. Christmas dinner is as little to do with religion as vegitarianism is to do with healthy living. Christmas dinner is a tradition nothing else. A tradition I might add that I will follow for many years to come. So hands off our Turkeys and do us all a favour and spit roast that bloody Justin cos he needs it.
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if the veggies don not want to eat meat, then why have veggie turkey, mince, etc etc if you want to eat veggies eat veggies not fake meat eat the meat,
and if we did not eat the meat the animals would be farmed only for the skins ie leather, as most of the veggies i know do wear leather.
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veggies eat milk cows are bred to produce milk the most wateful industry in the farming word is milk as cows havr to have a calf to produce milk, we are no long allowed to export out bull calves so they are usually kill on the farm of birth so veggies!! if you love animals so much stop drinking milk aswell
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If we do not eat meat will not be saving the farm animals. There will be no farm animals!!
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Not only was your veggie contributor completely fictitious in his supposed claims about the benefits of being a veggie, it was a totally irresponsible piece of broadcasting.
A balanced diet is critical to health as any number of medical and government agencies will tell you. To infer that you are running the risk of cancer by eating meat is not acceptable, especially for your younger, impressionable audience.
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Does your vegetarian drink milk or use dairy products?
If so how about all the cows kept in calf to provide milk who are also farting.
If I WAS a vegetarian the last thing I would want to eat is something that reminds me of meat eg, sausages, roasts, and bacon etc.
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Of course I will be eating turkey this Christmas. These animals are raised especially for the table. We as humans are equipped with carnivors teeth and the animals are an obvious part of the food chain. The have no other predators and so the argument that they are destroying our ozone layer with the emitting of methane is rubbish! If we dont eat the animals there will be more methane!!
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I have had a meat free christmas for the last 17 years along with the rest of my family. Why anyone would want to eat the corpse of a tortured british reared turkey I have no idea. Give your wallet, your health, the planet and the turkeys a break this christmas and go veggie (or even better vegan) - Viva Viva!
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I'm sick of these people who blame part of global warming on cows farting. The only way this would add to global warming would be if the cows ate fossil fuels. Which they don't.
This holier-than-thou attitude of so many veggies bores me rigid. I've known three vegetarians fairly intimately over the years. Each one eventually started eating meat. The last one had to as she was pregnant. This wasn't because doctors told her to start eating meat; this was because her body told her so.
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why do veggies have to have vegitarian sausages, chops, burgers? come on guys If ya gonna not eat meat why have food that looks like meat? The other point i'd like to make is by not eating meat your not saving animals from slaughter they just would not be bred to start with!
Merry Christmas
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Do you really think that all those farm animals would be kept if they were not destined to be eaten? They should be in kept in good conditions and slaughtered as swiftly and cleanly as possible. £60 for a turkey!? I dont think so.
It that sort of sanctimonious attitude which gives veggies a bad rep.
I've got veggie friends and if having a meal with them I'll have a veggie meal.
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I have been veggie now for four years and it was the best decision I ever made! I cooked a veggie dinner for my meat eating relatives and they all agreed that it was very scrummy!
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If cows are responsible for so much methane why is the goverment wasting money on wind turbines and not enhancing the free gas available. F plan power stations!!!
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Yes lets all turn veggie and then all the lovely animals in the world that have been bred for our tables will be killed in a mass cull!!!!!
Come on lets all eat a nut roast!!
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From Stuart whitaker isle of Man
If we aren't suppose to eat animals why are they made of meat?
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I Was a veggie until June of this year when I just decided that I was bored of a none meat diet!
Now I am looking forward to my first Meaty Christmas dinner for 15 years!
P.S I didn't start putting weight on until I became a vegetarian.
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I think that some of the comments are very judgemental and black and white. I think the issue is about the suffering of the animals. Some people detach themselves and don't care. Others feel close to tears when they see unnecessary suffering. Whether people eat meat or not I wish they would think about how they got their dinner. It would be great to see organic farming on the increase.
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I think it pathetic to say that all vegi’s have nut cutlets…. How very naive…parkinson..
There are many alternatives to meat…. Why do meat eaters insist on ridiculing vegetarians… how immature and uneducated…after all us vegis don’t murder other living creatures for our pleasures…
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I have absolutely nothing against vegitarians, in fact I've got one in the family. But really most bloggers have hit the nail on the head, no meat eaters equals no fluffy chicks, no wooly lambs. The countryside would be empty!!!!!
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As long as animal welfare standards are acceptable, I see nothing wrong with eating meat.
I'm carnivore, but I can respect vegetarians, it's your choice not to eat meat, but it's only fair you respect our choices to eat meat and not try to make us feel bad for doing so. I eat plenty of fruit and veg daily and believe that eating meat helps keep a balanced diet, and am far more healthier than some vegetarians I know because they are missing out on essential nutrients.
So stop preaching, thank you.
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These guys need to wind thier necks in, have you ever seen a healthy vege?
If we did'nt eat turkeys etc, then we would not be saving them, because there is no other reason for keeping them. They'ed be extinct!!!!!
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The fact that animals will not be bred for meat IS saving them, isn't it?
Saving them from the inhumane treatment at places like Bernard Matthews Turkey Farm for instance.
Thank you BBC - The One Show for screening this item. It was very brave of you!
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Is it just me that thinks it really sad to be vegetarian and want to serve up veggie bacon, veggie chicken, and veggie burgers.
Surely the whole point of being vegitarian is not to eat meat .... not to replicate what you don't want to eat.
I'm not anti vegitarian but can't understand the concept of effigy of meat.
What next .... beef carrots or chicken potatoes?
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I partly agree partly disagree. I am a vegetarian and I do know that animals are bred especially for meat and so queber1 said that meat eaters give them a life when vegetarians take it away, but the actual fact is, meat eaters give the animals a life, to take it away. Plus it's something like 70% of all animals bred for meat are mis treated, so it's not like they have much of a life atall. I do not tell meat eaters it is wrong to eat meat, because of they want to, it's their choice. But in NO way what so ever can you say that vegetarians are the ones to take it away. Also, there wouldn't be an over population of turkeys because they are mass produced and force fed especially for this. Some might say, if we didn't then they wouldn't have a life, but to be honest, I wouldn't to have a life like theirs AND quite alot of them, lamb for example, well the clue is in the name. They're just babies.
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Seems a daft argument - "Don't eat meat and save a life". If we all didn't eat meat the animals would never be born or reared and therefore would not have the opportunity of life in the first place. Far better to have a life than not at all!!?
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One comment - we wouldn't save 11,0000 animals if we were all vegetarians as they wouldn't breed them.
One question - why do vegetarians always eat food that mimics meat ie veggy cutlets and sausages etc??
Peter
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Justin seems to forget humans are actually omnivores and whilst being vegetarian is fine for some, it is NOT the most healthy or “natural” lifestyle for humans. It’s worth remembering that many animals, including us, have prey species that actually need them to be preyed on to survive as a species. Life is not as simple as many people such as Justin pretend.
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Some people are missing the point. It is better not to have lived, than spend your whole life in conditions worse than a concentration camp.
So why wouldn't you go veggie? It is cheaper, better for you, better for the planet you will leave your children and better for animals.
If you won't have any mercy, have a little sense.
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What you eat for Christmas is your choice, and yours alone. If you want turkey or nutroast, it's up to you.
Vegetarians aren't exactly carbon neutral-exotic fruits and vegetables have to be imported from overseas to suppliment the meat element of a diet.
If you're vegetarian fair enough. I won't preach to you if you don't preach to me!
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Humans are meant to eat meat, its the best source of iron. milk for calcium. If it wasnt for veggies we wouldn't be breeding a world allergic to nuts
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i was brought up a vegitarian, so have never had a meat christmas dinner, and i don't want one.
i'm fine with nut roast, thank you, it tastes delishious.
what annoys me about being vegitarian is about people tellingme how hard it must be, and would ieat a chicken for a million pounds, or to save my mums life.
thats a predudice, snd it annoys me, just because i don't eat meat dosn't mean i don't care about my family.
i know what i do means i think of saving animals lives, not just about what i want to eat.
i have a healthy BMI and don't need to take pills to ensure my health.
I'm a healthy, fun loving vegitarian, and thats how i want to stay.
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#60 - I've seen plenty of healthy vegetarians but I've even more UNhealthy meat eaters. Vegetarians are seldom obese. I am a healthy vege.
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if all the cows are causing global warming then lets eat them and end the problem!
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if we were to be veggies 24/7 we would not have incisors and are appendix would still be working.
I do not try and tell someone to eat meat when they stick to vegetables so why are they doing it to us trying to add guilt to our diet.
Not to mention there are people who are with health problems which makes it really a bad idea to stop eating meat all together which will have a knock on affect for people who farmers and the meat industry while we ended up having a few cows and pigs running around are roads and garden's because there is an over population.
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Why? do vegies want their dinner to represent turkey, burgers,bacon, sausages, etc. They are against eating meat and the slaughter of animals, yet they want their foo to look like ours, It beggars belief. Paul
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Question for you becsjennings?.. did you give your 9 year old son the right to choose for himself??
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and actually we have an appendix to digest grass, as we didn't eat meat to start off with, we graised, as cows still do.
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Christmas is not Christmas without the turkey! Why do vegetarians need substitutes that look like meat? Plenty of gravy for me please!
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OK - here's a compromise. It's not just the cow farts and cow dung that causes greenhouse gases. The feed that they use in factory farming is having huge repurcussions on both greenhouse gasses and deforestation, especially in the Amazon where they are growing soy products as cheap animal feed for European factory farms. The more trees they cut down the less we can such up CO2 so its a destructive circle that all leads back to your dinner plate. So... if you don't want to convert to quorn just yet but want to make a difference to the world then look for free range, organic farm options to get your meat.
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Thanks, Christine, for making the comment about "moving on to more pressing issues" after the 'no meat at Christmas' one. No problem guessing where your loyalties lie. What can be more pressing than making a personal decision about not to be a part of having an animal killed and eating it. I'm a 44 year old vegetarian (I considered it when I was nine years old) and, having been veggie for 30 years, I have never had a weight problem nor a conscience one and I absolutely love my food.
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Does he not realise, that if we all stopped eating meat to save the animals, there would be no animals for him to go ga-ga over - they are here for a reason and one reason only. His comment about veggies being healthy, well, all I can say is the veggies I have come across look ghastly, pasty faced - they stick out like a sore thumb. Finally, does he wear leather shoes, leather belts, woolly jumpers!!!
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Several people have said the same thing already: the animals would not be born and bred if they were not being eaten! Methane production true to an extent however although they do give off less methane if all the various herbivore that have been eaten over the millenia had not been eaten then there would be a lot more methane and a lot less plants producing oxygen! Hmmmm
Vegetarian are healthier are they then why have I met several chicken eaters who would like to be vegetarian but they have been advised by doctors to eat at least fish or chicken to boost their protein levels!
Finally if it is son healthy then why does our appendix not work anymore an organ that originally was there to digest cellulose the substance found in... plants!
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I don't know where he has done his research, but there is a great deal of evidence that vegetarian's could end up with a great deal of ailments due to not eating animal fat etc..
Everything he advertised as for the vegetarians was processed packaged rubbish!
What people should be focussing on is animal welfare and promoting free range animals that live in good conditions. I am buying a turkey from a local butcher and wouldn't dream of buying one from a supermarket!
But from everything I have studied as a personal trainer and nutritional advisor, we need good quality MEAT!!
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What an excellent item. Thank you for showing that. At least a few people might realise that what they are eating over Christmas used to be a living animal! Pity more of the people that will react negatively about your item would not manage to have to kill and pluck the animal themselves and think about it's life!
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"If everyone was vegitarian the world would not be able to support the population. Eat meat and stop people starving."
Actually, if all the grain that is fed to animals, to pander to the greedy, meat eating population of the planet, there would be more than enough to go round the human population. Feeding 10 tons of grain to animals, to produce 1 ton of meat is quite frankly, crazy.
BTW, it's vegetarian. Eating meat dulls the brain.
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I Would Like It Made Aware That Methane Gas Comes From Dairy Cattle, Not Beef Cattle And Therefore Only Vegans Are Preventing This "Climate Damage". I Would Also Like To Make It Aware That Vegetarian Cannot Get All Vital Nutrients And Vitimins From The Foods They Intake As Many As Vital Nutrients And Vitimins Are Only Found In Animal Foods E.g Vitimin D. Liver Is A Rich Source Of Many Nutrients And This Will Obvisously Not Be Eaten By Vegetarians So I Do Not Appreciate The Incorrect Information Supplied In Your Vegetarian Christmas Report.
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I just read another comment and I am a vegetarian ( as previously stated) along weith quite a few others I know and NONE of us try to stop meat eaters eating meat. I know what I said, but that;s how I feel. Me and others I know would never try to stop someone from eating meat and it says in the comments, if vegetarians would stop trying to get us to stop eating meat..., which we don't. This man is only one.
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I am upset that this ill informed political activist was allowed to interrupt my dinner. Virtually nothing this man said has any real basis in fact and the One Show should be ashamed to have broadcast this propaganda . It put me right off my cauliflower and leeks au gratin.
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If you had walked into our kitchen yesturday you would have found me jointing a fallow deer that somebody driving home (probably for the local) hit with their car. It made a brilliant meal this evening and the rest has gone in the freezer. We along with a vast majority of people are tightening our belts and free venision that will last several meals, is not to be refused for anybody elses moral views. We are omnivores, therefore ment to have meat as part of our diets. I am not going to waste perfectly good meat for your peace of mind, especially at christmas when it is a tradition. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a vegetarian/vegan etc. but you should not expect everybody to have the same opinion as yourself. Save a cow, eat a vegetarian :P
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People only do this as they think it is tradition and you have to do it! Animals are over bred for people to eat, therefore saying that the world will be overpopulated if people do not eat them is ridiculous! People have been brainwashed into accepting things in life are acceptable and i think if people actually thought about it, they deep down know it is wrong to kill animals for their dead flesh.
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i don't have a problem with vegatarians but keep your views to yourself and stop trying to preach down our throats... next thing they'll be knocking on the door at 6.30 in the morning like jehovahs witnesses, asking us DID YOU HAVE MEAT THIS MORNING YOUR SLAUGHTERING ANIMALS!!!
Get a grip man has always eaten meat and always will. Personally i cannot wait too sink my teeth into some nice juicy turkey at christmas!
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I love my meat dinners, but respect veggies for their choice. The guy says to think about all the animals that will be saved if we choose not to eat meat, well they are bred for a reason the table! If there is no demand they simply would not be bred. Also this would impact on rural commerce.
BTW, does this chap drink milk? Milk is a by product of the beef industry. Cows are inseminated to produce a calf each year, in order to produce milk virtually all year round.
I personally would much rather concentrate on conditions which animals are kept and slaughtered, and focus on ethically produced meat.
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my mum has always given me the choice, but i prefer to be nice to animals, its my choice, but my mum being veggie makes it much eaiser.
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By not eating meat you are not saving the lives of millions of animals. If nobody ate them then nobody would farm them.
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How absolutely ridiculous, if we didn't eat meat then there wouldn't be any farm animals at all. The fields would be empty of anything other than vegetasble and cereal crops. Therefore we would not be saving an animal at all , we would, in fact, eliminate all of them.
Get real and use a bit of logic.
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im a vegetarian and i will be eating nut roast for xmas dinner :) ive been a vege all my life and ive never eaten meat. my family are all vege too and i dont feel the need to eat meat. i just recently found out i hav coeliac disease, so i cant eat wheat. i used to love eating quorn but it contains wheat! people are telling me to eat meat instead now but i refuse. even if it does mean i only eat vegetable for life!! and we are healthier! i dont understand how it is ok for us to eat animals but we dont eat ourselves. is it only because animals cant talk and tell us not to kill them that we do it?? i think its wrong. so i wil be enjoying xmas meat free this year like i always do and always will!!
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I think that this is great that you have allowed this person to put the views of vegetarians.
People need to think about what they eat and how it gets to the table. I bet very few of the carnivores commenting in this blog will be slaughtering their own christmas meal!
I agree that farmers do a good and I support what they do but somewhere along the line people have lost track of what meat is and what it takes to produce it. If the land that is used to produce cattel feed was used to produce grain and pulses for human consumption it would support four times the number of humans.
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vegetarians need to understand that all the meat we eat is bred for that, if we all became veggies the animals will still have to die, the farms will close thus adding to unemployment and the selling of farms for development meaning the end of the countryside.
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What an idiot, why eat fake turkey when you could have the most delicious Walnut pate en croute. Recipe will be sent if requested. I make this every Christmas for my family all of whom say it is far far better than meat pumped full of hormones,antibiotics and other nasties and I am surprised that a person who says he is a Veggie would even want to eat something that purports to be meat when there are so many other wonderful alternatives. By the way I am not a Vegetarian as I eat fish, but not meat.
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I was delighted to see a veggie Christmas promoted on the One Show. My family will be eating the traditional turkey but I will be eating a nut roast and very delicious too! Giving up meat was the hardest thing to do but I am so pleased that I did - about 9 years ago. Animals are not here just for us to eat, be entertained by or experimented upon for us. All I ask is that everyone thinks about this before they indulge themselves.
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I really object to having someone tell me that by eating meat I stand a greater chance of contracting cancer. I would be really interested to know how many people became vegetarian after seeing this appeal on The One Show. None I suspect - a very unconvincing case to become a vegetarion. Can't wait for my lovely Roast Turkey, Roast Beef and Gammon on Crhistmas day, not to mention the pigs in blankets & sausagemeat stuffing. mmmmmm........
Dawn from Borehwamwood.
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looking forward to my veggie christmas!!!!i choose not to eat animals,i dont preach about it,but i feel health, humans create wars and many global problems ,shall we
eat them too?
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I gave up meat totally about 12 years ago after eating a turkey xmas dinner. I have some sort of fish in pastry with all the usual trimmngs that everyone else has at xmas. Now I could never imagine myself eating a turkey or chicken that was once running around in a farm yard. I love my xmas dinners.
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P.s I have been a vegetarian for two years and you can get all your vitamins and minerals from all the veggie option food out there.
Also to hammythebutcher- dont beef cattle fart then?!
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Response to the ignorant comment "If everyone was vegetarian the world would not be able to support the population. Eat meat and stop people starving."
THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE!
It takes 16lb of grain to create 1lb of meat. If we all became vegetarian, we could SAVE people from starving. Feed people the grain - don't let it become manure!
I have no personal problem with people eating animals per se, but the conditions under which the animals are kept and the envirnonmental impact makes eating meat IMMORAL - much more than leaving the lights or heating on 24 hours a day or not recycling. Research it on the internet.
People are simply too SELFISH to cut down on their meat intake or give it up.
The entire animal industry creates MUCH more greenhouse gas than the entire transport industry. It's not just the animals' farting and burping, but consider all the petrol needed to create the food to feed them, transport that feed and other needed supplies, deal with their manure, transport them to slaughter houses, them to packers and then to shops. Plus, many third world countries where people are starving are cutting down their forrests to create ranches to raise beef to export to the richer countries - US!
Accepting these facts are true, is it really moral to eat meat on such a large scale or at all? Most people prefer to stay in denial which shows how weak and selfish society is.
See below for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production
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I'm a vegetarian, but this report was ridiculous - "stop eating cows, and they'll stop farting???" eh? EVERY single reason for being veggie in this report was laughable.
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Of course I'll still eat meat (Turkey & Sausages) this Christmas. I'm sick of these irritating, malnourished vegetarians telling us what we should eat!
In fact, I'm going to add a joint of pork to our Christmas dinner just because of the person who was on the show.
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nothing worse than a self-righteous vegetarian if you ask me! the reason there is so many obese meat-eaters around is cos there's so many lazy gits around!
..oh and for the record termites produce more methane than cows!
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I love meat but have no problem with cooking and eating vegetarian food, even at Christmas time. I found it shocking though that right after saying that vegetarians can have healthier lifes, Mr. Kerswell proceeded to show all the 'vegetarian options' available on the market nowadays. How can anybody be healthier eating pre-prepared super maket meals?
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We'll be having a three bird roast for Christmas dinner. It adds a sweetness to the dish to know that three lives were given for my bloodthirsty pleasure! A real treat
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i am already a veggie and i never try to stop other people eating meat either.some of my friends try to make me eat meat though.besides my m8s dont like veggie burgers.this christmas im gonna have lots of roast veg and quorn burgers (which i love)
Cathy(aged 11)
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oh my god. i no i keep adding comments(can't be bothered to type right) i just totally disagree with people saying their argument is that there would be no animals left. the whole reason for breeding them is to kill them, so that's not exactly a very strong argument. and every meat eater up here pretty much is saying that there are no helathy vegetarians. like the other comment up their, I am a happy, HEALTHY vegetarian size 8/10 with a very healthy bmi, and who has a very balanced diet. you don't NEED meat. and veggies dnt say to ppl not to eat meat!!! this is just one guy!!!
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Do these veggies think that the farmers will keep the domestic livestock just so the countryside will look pretty? They work like the rest of for a profit, if there's no profit then. sorry, no beasts; so off they would go anyway to the slaughter house only the carcases would just be left top rot, is that what they want?
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The simple facts are that Homo Sapiens are omnivores.
One only has to look at the teeth. Incisors, Canines, Pre-Molars and Molars.
All have evolved for specific purposes. Canines to grip meat, Incisors to incise the meat. Pre-molars to chew the meat and Molars to deal with particularly tough cuts.
I would suggest that if we were to evolve into Vegetarians, our teeth would evolve accordingly.
There is no current evidence of this.
Of course, this useful variety of teeth also enables us to deal effectively with vegetables.
Incidentally, we Homo Sapiens are classsified as 'Hunter Gatherers'. Presumably, if we were to evolve as vegetarians then we would need to be re-classified as just 'Gatherers'.
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not meaning to be horrible to animals, but surely in the cavemen times, they didnt think about not eating animals. i mean, some animals are meant to be eaten. and you are a bit silly because being a vege is not a balanced diet, so please eat meat, get a balanced diet, and have a happy life.
Merry Xmas
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It takes ONE ACRE of land to farm one head of beef. This land would be better used to grow crops. The world could be fed then.
I am a vegetarian but I don't like 'faux meat' - I prefer vegetables as they are meant to be eaten - not given chicken style texture or flavour. Maybe if you've just turned vege and miss eating meat, then it's understandable, maybe.
Also, I object to the word 'abattoir' - this pretty french word makes slaughterhouses sound acceptable - instead of the killing factories that they actually are.
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oh yeah and surely if cows are trumping we need to eat them to make them stop.
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#106 - Good response!
Happy meat eating christmas everyone!
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Just commenting on a post by DigitalMikeInWales. The conditions the animals are kept in is nothing like a concentration camp and how dare you say something like that. Concentration camps are the single most inhumane aspect of our past... and while i do not agree with some of the animals conditions being bad, they are not similar.
And personally instead of blaming meat eaters for eating meat why not blame the supermarkets for purchasing cheap bad quality meat from the people who keep the animals in bad conditions. All my meat comes from a local butcher who actually checks the animals he buys out in the open at a farm in scotland.
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I am glad to see the majority of comments posted are in complete disagreement with the veggie munching Justin.
11 000 animals would never even be born if it wasnt for meat eaters. What a ridiculously biased feature. If we didnt eat meat there would not be any farm animals and the animals that we see in our fields would survive only in zoo's. If the only animals that survived were in zoo's there would be a shortage of vegetables because arable famers rely on animal manure to grow their crops.
If Justin and his veggie friends prefer to eat fake, processed meat substitutes that's up to them but it is disgraceful to promote vegetarianism in this way. Keep your opinions to yourself and in future show two sides to every story.
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lol at 115!! get of your soapbox and learn to spell!! lol
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I think that eatind a dead animal is a waste of a life. I will be eating my veggie stuff come Christmas. And I think that if you are going to eat meat sure u don't waste any!
VEGGIE RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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oh i was reading them that's another thing i agree with, alot of meat eaters can not even watch their meal being killed. they'll eat it, but say oh no I don;t want to see that. and they don't mind killing cows but "save the cute ones!!! don't hurt the rabbit!!!" this angers me so much. i can almost say if you kill it and raise it and can do it yourself then you go ahead and eat it. don't eat it if you don't even have the respect to watch it being killed. give it what it deserves and give it some respect.
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^^^ lol ^^^ OFF*
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ISN'T IT A SHAMELESS WASTE OF LICENCE FEE PAYERS MONEY TO LET THESE PEOPLE PREACH TO THE NATION ON PRIME TIME TV. I SHALL CERTAINLY NOT BE TUCKING INTO A 'SUCCULENT NUT ROAST' ON CHRISTMAS DAY BUT A LARGE PORTION OF HOME REARED TURKEY AND BEEF, JUST WHAT IS NEEDED TO KEEP OUR GREAT FARMING TRADITION ALIVE.
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Thanks hammythebutcher
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I've been vegetarian for about 10 years now. While I don't preach to meat eaters I would hope that animals are treated humanely during their life and sadly that is simply not the case. For example, there is no need to transport live animals for thousands of miles for force feed geese etc.,
Apparently Einstein did say that we need to move to a vegetarian diet in order to feed the population - as the amount of food needed to raise the cattle is actually far more than it would be to feed the human population.
I know bio-fuels are also a problem but I think the facts are accurate and this contributes to the higher food prices.
The reason I turned vegetarian is that I could not slit the throat of any animal. If you can't do it yourself etc.,
So cut down on meat and always go to a decent supplier. There are decent alternatives and it will help to feed the world!!
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My Dad has been a vegetarian for over 56 years, he eats carrots, cabbage, sweetcorn, broccoli etc, and he loves his roast potatoes and for christmas day we are going to have a special meal for the whole family, roast beef, roast potatoes, roast veg,yorkshire puddings with sausages in(toad in the whole) and parships done with honey, people always say to him 'thats not being a veggie' and he always replys.... cows eat grass dont they??
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I have lived for 30 years without eating meat and I am healthy.
Meat eaters will always try to justify their greed. Just look at some of the above ludicrous posts.
Compassion versus Greed.......look at the planet....greed always wins.
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I have some animals on a croft in Scotland and when they were younger their lambs, goat kids went for meat but I enjoy eating meat as long as I haven't been personnally introduced to them. My view is each to his own. The point is you wouldn't have the animals to save because the farmers would have to grow soya or rice to feed us. My girls are now retired from producing and are into a well deserved retirment and as any domesticated animal turn them lose and come winter with no hay and food there would not be many left especially the older girls.
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HOW CAN YOU SAY CONDITIONS AREN'T AS BAD AS CONCENTRATION CAMPS. oh my god they soo are. AND concentration camps were not the single most inhumane thing to ever happen, things like that still go on in the world today, jsut as bad, we just don;t hear about them as much.
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Most of the posts on this site are stupid bullshxx. Why not try and say something intelligent? Make a well-argued and backed-up case.
To someone who thinks vegetarians should 'get off their high horse' - do you have any genuine and academic response to COMMENT #104??
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I will be eating a very delicious veggie Christmas dinner this year, as I have for twenty previous Christmasses.
To respond to a couple of comments on this blog:-
Veggies are not weaklings. Usually they are very healthy. Food poisoning is far more likely to come from meat products.
I do not force my way of eating on anyone, but often have rude comments made to me by meat eaters.
In two fields of equal size, more vegetables can be grown over a year, than can produce cow, pig or sheep flesh.
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THE ONE SHOW.........
Should be congratulated for including this informative item on vegetarianism
Thank you for screening this, I enjoyed watching it.
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The person saying that meat is pumped full of hormones etc. only if you choose to eat meat like that! People do have the choice of buying quality meat from free range animals. It's the criminal supermarkets that create a situation where animals are kept in horrible conditions to make moooooooorree money! But we can choose not to buy it from them. Depends if people do have a conscience.
And I totally back the comments from the guy saying that we need meat for vital nutrients. Vitamin A D E K are FAT soluble, we need animal fat to get these nutrients and to be able to actually utilise them in the body!!
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I'm tired of people telling me that it is wrong to eat meat. If we were intended to be vegetarian, our teeth would be different and the appendix would be a useful organ instead of a risky relic! If veggie food is so great, why does it have to simulate meat? To those who wish to be vegetarian I say: 'Good luck' but leave me alone!
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Ok people are getting all statistics and sizes now its doing my head in.... you want some facts have these
For every acre of land you use for crops theirs is over 50kg of pesticides, fertilisers and god knows what else put into the soil and sprayed etc etc to keep the food "safe".
For every 10 acres of land for crops an average farmer will spend an average of 3hours a day on the land maintaining it etc etc (i know this as my friends family have been farmers for years and recently changed from crops to BEEF CATTLE due to the save in costs).
And finally the creme de la creme if everybody turned veggie as 1 neanderthal member posted where would you find cows, chickens, sheep, pigs.... in the zoo next to the orangutangs and the sea lions??? GET A GRIP KEEP YOUR VIEWS TO YOURSELF AND STOP CRAMMING IT DOWN OUR THROATS
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no one is cramming it down your throat number 136. you will do what you want in end.
funny how you are so defensive though! raw nerve?
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For a start theres no saving of any animals because they just wouldnt be bred. Its not enviromentally friendly as not rearing animals would mean we would be growing corn and no grass. Grassland is a massive carbon sink!
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ok i'm a vegetarian, i'm not going to force my views on you, but i personally would not be able to kill an animal so i dont believe i should eat one. if you dont share someones views it doesnt make it right to just insult their dress sense! i just hate the fact that you are all being so intolerant of vegetarians :( if you eat meat, good for you but other people are also entitled to their opinions.
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To COMMETN #136
I can't even understand what point you are tyring to prove with your stats.
All the pesticides that crops use are bad - but again it takes 16lb of grain to create 1lb of meat so the meat industry is contributing even more to this problem, as well as world hunger, and the more than anything environmental problems.
If you want to feel secure in your views, do some research before decided we are preaching to you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production
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no meat at christmas!!!! has the world gone completly mad. My family lives for the giant turkey at christmas. Who has the right to tell us not to eat our meat. If no-body eats meat any more what can we do with the animals! they would just end up getting killed anyway. if people want to go by this rule well good look but i bet you will be craving that turkey when your sat down watching the telly. If i get fat from the lovely turkey who cares i have another year to lose the weight before the christmas dinner.
luv from
xox meat eatter sarah xox
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
being told what i can and can't do by somebody else seems to happen alot. i can't smoke in my local pub (not got a problem with restaurants) i can't drive my jeep without some green peace in his 20year old volvo shouting greenhouse, being told i have to recycle i have no choice in the matter whatsoever, and finally being told i can't eat meat because some cow bred to be on my plate might have to fulfill its live as meat
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I agree that killing a turkey is not "christmassy" and we seem to have lost sight of what christmas is all about. Christmas is not about eating turkey, or pretend turkey. It is a religious occasion. I also do not entirely agree with the comments regarding vegetarianism. If you only eat vegetable products and soya etc. it has been proven that you may not get enough of the vital vitamins minerals etc. that an omnivore gets.
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I'd be interested to know how many of these bleeding heart animal loving vegetarians own a pair of leather shoes or a leather handbag. How many of them would check the packaging before eating a "Percy Pig" from M&S to see if it contains animal based gelatine. I suspect there is more blood on their hands than they realise. Mmmmmm blood. I fancy a nice black pudding sandwich now. To the kitchen!
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Read COMMENT #104 and actually respond to one intelligent argument with another.
It makes you sound ignorant when you insult others, or use words like faxxot or when you say unfactual things like 'the animals would just be kileld anyway' - no, farms breed animals to supply the demand. Reduce the demand and reduce the supply.
Somebody please make an intelligent well-backed up argument!
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Consider this. There is no need for countryside as there are no animals to graze on it. There is no need to grow hay and straw as there are no animals to eat it or sleep on it. Well now we have loads of land to build on. Lets build lots of worthless factories so that we can make food out of chemicals. Lots of additives and fake flavourings.
Great idea What!!!!!!!
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I am going veggie this year!! Can't love animals and kill them. Been a vegetarian for almost 3 weeks now. Bit tough but worth it. Visit peta's web page and see what we do to hopeless creatures. I cried my eyes out watching "fur video", cutting cows throat while she is looking at you. I cried out laud calling for for Jesus Christ to help them and relieve them of their pain. i believe in God and I can't harm the weak, and by eating them I am doing it. Anyone veggie out there to give me some ideas how to cook for my first veggie Christmas.
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isnt it sad that people{vegetarians} who have a hang up about killing animals would rather deprive them of a life! just to spare themselves the emotion of guilt?
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RESPONSE TO #147 -
That makes no sense - there are plenty of NATURAL foods to eat with no chemicals that can provide us with all the nutrients we need.
So I'd still like to see someone Read COMMENT #104 and actually respond to one intelligent argument with another instead of writing rubbish.
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nftygirl. I think you are fighting a losing battle.
It astounds me that most people are unable to have any reasoned discussion but what can you do?
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comment 145
i check everything. do not own any leather/suede/fur. and only buy buav approved cosmetics and household goods. so yes we do check!
theyre are lots of alternatives out there! not just for meat.
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I think some people are missing Justin's point: that people can still have the taste of meat, just without killing animals. You can be healthy and happy without killing animals, so why do it?
As for concentration camps - well factory farms (where most of Britain's animals are kept) are not far off. Most of those 10 million turkeys killed in the run up to Christmas will have about the same amount of space to stand as the tray he or she is eventually roasted in. It's obscene to treat animals like units of meat.
It's true those animals won't be bred if you go veggie, but what life do they have? Chickens are only six weeks old when they are killed - and most never even go outside.
I'm vegan, but most people don't go vegan overnight. So, it's good to see someone making the case for how easy it is to ditch the meat.
Oh, and I liked his jacket. :-)
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Why are meat eaters so rude about non-meat eaters? I don't understand why.
If all the world was vegetarian then there would be enough food to feed the world. Instead of people eating grain etc directly, grain is eaten by animals and the animals then eaten by humans. This is not a viable way of feeding the world.
I was disappointed by Christine's comment, having turned up her nose at vegetarian fare, "Now on to more pressing matters." I don't really think that Michael Parkinson's autobiography is a more pressing matter than how to feed the whole world, or indeed animal welfare issues.
And, yes, vegetarians, being thinking people, have the intelligence to check which products contain gelatine.
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What a boring life you must lead sensiblecbeebie. Imagine all the time you'd save if you just threw caution to the wind and gnawed on a bloody stump one day. Besides, I think the that a woodbine lends a certain je ne sais quoi to a beagle. Let alone a rabbit with the London look!
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I've been vegetarian for 55 years.
The science is quite clear that meat is not essential to good health. In fact for over 40 years the majority of research has shown the benefits of vegetarian diets over the typical western diet that includes meat regularly.
Although not vegetarian the World Cancer Research Fund is quite clear in their latest report, the work of years collating thousands of nutritional research papers have produced this simple 10 point plan:-
http://www.wcrf-uk.org/research_science/recommendations.lasso
Back to vegetarian facts,morals and ethics, of which so many of your glib writers are ignorant.
The UK could be self-sufficient if the population was entirely vegetarian.
Our risk of most major diseases like cancer, heart trouble and diabetes etc. is reduced by at least 25% when we adopt a healthy wholefood plant based diet.
The imitation meats are usually produced to help new vegetarians who have been brought up to traditional meat eating.
In the programme the ready meals were shown to encourage those who might wish to do their bit this Christmas to reduce the suffering of turkeys, geese, ducks and chickens who are, in the main, reared in atrocious conditions in factory farms.
If anyone doubts the benefit of a vegetarian diet, I urge them to read The China Study by one of the world's leading nutritionists T.Colin Campbell. After a lifetime working and leading nutrition research projects, his whole family became vegetarians, over 12 years ago, largely for health reasons.
If you add in the avoidable cruelty involved in the rearing and killing of animals the argument is unassailable.
Life is fun. I don't need to kill animals or other humans to enjoy it.
Note for Christians. Remember that most of the early Christians were vegetarian and pacifist, until 300 AD, when the Roman state swallowed the beliefs and changed them.
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Isleof pie
a person with your ignorance would think that
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save a cow and turkey eat a veggie.
stupid man looks like he needs a good feed.
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"a person with your ignorance would think that"
Cracking comeback cbeebie. Maybe a sausage sandwich would help get the grey matter going a little bit.
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haha never heard that before. so original.
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In reply to previous comments
With regard to the carbon footprint being increased by the shipment and processing of meat. Correct me if I'm wrong but even 50 years ago bananas were considered a luxury item because they don't grow here and sorry if I'm being foolish but aren't most plants naturally seasonal hence why many herbivores hibernate. So there is large ecological expense involved.
Now if any omnivorous bloggers have said that all vegetarians are unhealthy then I'm ashamed to say that they are wrong however as I said before for some people it is healthy to not be entirely vegetarian!
The reason that I eat meat is because I enjoy the taste and flavour, if I needed to kill it to eat it then I would however there are people out there who are better trained and able to kill more humanely than myself! If I could afford to eat organic/free range animal products then I would but I can't so there you go.
The argument about more crop per acre than livestock sorry but I fail to see the relevance meat and veg provide different forms of sustenance.
Arguments about meat eaters being fat and lazy. Well not being facetious but protein is the best form of sustainable energy ergo if a meat eater does not exercise then yes they will become fat whereas a lazy vegetarian will not to the same extent.
A vegetarian lifestyle can be part of a healthy lifestyle, but likewise so can an omnivorous one. The health issue is therfore moot it is not soley down to diet.
The x about of animals would still be alive argument irrelevant in its entirety, if however his argument had been x amount of animals would not have had a miserable life then yes there would have been validity to the statement.
Can't be bothered to go up again and check but at least one person cited wikipedia for facts. HAHAHAHAHA (sorry couldn't resist) Wikipedia is a contribution site never rely on it for information by all means use it but it is not necessarily correct, the amount of celebs who have discovered a variety of facts about their life which were for various reasons of location timing or even laws of physics not true!
Finally I have no problem with the one show screening a segment about having a vegetarian x-mas however I feel that they could have balanced it with for example a segment about alternative meats at x-mas perhaps. Ostrich Drumstick anyone?
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I stopped eating meat years ago after seeing how turkeys are actually killed and the conditions other animals are kept in, plus the suffering they go through in their short lives in farms where production is more important than welfare or quality of the meat. My husband, also a veggie when we met, worked in a dairy - neither of us are 'townies'. We have a few milk products for it is often kinder to milk the cow than leave it with how many of them have been bred to excess and source as much local / seasonal produce as we can to reduce our carbon footprint.
The principal I abide by is I could never kill an animal for food and as such I have no right to eat it, otherwise it's sheer hypocrisy. How many of you who eat meat have ever killed your meal? True we are intrinsically hunter gatherers, but then we're a far cry from the African tribes who still honour their prey and only take what they need to survive.
I eat veggie 'meat' products and the reason is simple: variety. Meat eaters combine meal, meat and herbs to make sausages. They compact meat with onion, etc to make burgers. They pulverise meat products to make pate. We do the same with soya or mushroom and get hammered for it! Duh!
I in no way tell other people what to do, as my friends and family will attest, family who will be eating turkey this Yule whilst my husband and I have a soya roast (I might add sourced from beans grown in sustainable farms), but my husband and I are both healthy and I have had far less stomach problems since I gave up meat. My father in law is 75, still winning regattas, still a hill ranger. Weak and sickly hey...?
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Sorry but couldn't resist #156 Most christians... until the romans swallowed them up.
Surely most "Christians were only christians because the Romans told them that they were!" Previously until Constantines deathbed conversion most Romans were pantheists, and most of the rest of the Roman suzerains were also pantheists with one of the chief gods usually being the god of the hunt! Who coincidently enough is where the origins of santa are believed to have come! errrrm oops oh and btw whoever said Jesus would be tucking into a sausage or bacon sandwich errmm he was a Jew they so he kinda wouldn't sorry to burst the bubble!
As I said before for some people vegetarianism may be healthier but part of this is because they are always watching what they eat!
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isleofpie you are just being childish with comments like "Maybe a sausage sandwich would help get the grey matter going a little bit. "
stop attacking vegetarians, we are not stupid enough to not check packaging on food items.
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No but you are very very easy to wind up. I don't care if people eat meat, vegetables or their own faeces. I just like a good row.
Oh and you're quite right about Jesus and the bacon sandwich. I realise now the error of my ways as obviously the sliced white loaf was not invented until 1953. Thank you, much love, goodnight
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As others have said, if people didn't EAT meat then there wouldn't be the demand for it so these animals would simply not be bred meaning that some of our animals would simply become a rarity or extinct. However, i quite understand people's desire for better animal rights and better more humane ways of getting the meat to our tables and therefore refusing to eat meat. By the way, I was a research scientist for British United Turkeys, researching any claims of harm to the turkeys to ensure good treatment of the birds.
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i hate people who argue just for the sake of it. trying to be so clever.....
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#164 surely you meant "we are clever enough to check to check packaging on food items" sorry for the pedanticism but with your double negative and the context it was used in you kind of shot yourself in the foot! Yes any fellow pedants out there I know that my grammar may lacking a little in the punctuation dept put hey.
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and a couple of spelling went awry!
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Oh, i forgot to add that surely the easiest thing to do would be to just accept that everyone has their own way of doing things and that if those who want to eat meat eat meat and those who don't dont. For centuries people have been doing just that, why are we now so interested in what others eat or do? Surely as long as someone is happy with the way they are it doesn't matter. Further to someone elses point about healthy and unhealthy... What works for one may not work for another, I tried not eating meat and found that it made me very ill and i couldn't get enough iron into my system. To be honest, I actually just think we should leave everyone to do what they like and concentrate on things closer to home, maybe that way family spirit would be stronger.
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rathaven555, nicely put
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Just a question but is anyone actually telling anyone else that they musn't eat meat or must eat meat? I thought the whole point of the article on the one show was to show that it is an OPTION not to say you must do this or must not do this...
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Steve from Bristol says: I've been veggy for 40 years and know I'm in the minority. Most people eat meat but few would kill an animal but buy it neatly packaged from supermarkets. How many really care about animal welfare, what kind of life the animals have had as long as your meat is cheap and tastes good!
I do agree that it seems daft calling things "Lamb style quorn steaks" and "chicken style quorn pieces" etc, but I guess its done to try and convert you carnivores.
Justin was only suggesting an alternative to tradition, aggressive lot aren't you - perhaps eating meat makes you like it!
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Reply to Sandra no. 148. There are loads of veggy products in most supermarkets, quorn, soya or tofu - many varieties, with veggy gravy, so you can still have a roast dinner but with no animal products. Tastey, healthy and cruelty free.
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I'm just surprised this chap could summon the energy to go on for a whole minute.
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170. Vegetarians are no more likely to be anaemic than meat-eaters, according to scientific surveys.
It is a pity that you did not balance your food intake suitably. There is now plenty of advice out there.
In fact haem-iron from meat is now found to produce some health problems, including too much iron in the blood!
Vegetarians who eat a balanced diet, ensuring adequate variety of fresh food with get their iron from many sources.
Why not have another go?
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Well I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at all the ignorant comments, if they weren't so ignorant they probably wouldn't be meat eaters in the first place hmm...
Saying the animals should be grateful they were given a life... why would you want to be born, imprisoned and then slaughtered, I'd be grateful not to be born. And to the dipstick who said we'd be over run with turkeys - they are only bred to meet demand... if we didn't buy them they wouldn't have to be bred - do the maths!
I will be having veggie versions of roast turkey with sausages wrapped in veggie bacon and all the trimmings, courtesy of holland and barret
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A true english christmas meal? Pray, what was that before the Reformation?
Our fields would be full of people working the land using animals to help them, and sharing life with. They would be there for loving.
For substance info., try the WHO report, or view www.mastersupremetv.com. I don't mind helping Gordon Brown to save the world!
Some people want to be veggie, but need help with same tasting foods. What are we able to live without after years of using?
I know I have to be vegan because animals feel and I can share their second sight. It also takes a great weight of responsibility off my shoulders,, and makes Nature look so much better when I go out for a walk.
Also, I am glad I am not the one who knows how to kill for Christmas.
After all, the picture I have of Jesus is of him sitting with a Lamb.
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I don't really care whether a person is a veggie or a meat eater, it's their business but I do think it's very sad when a veggie bangs on about the subject and then eats veggie Turkey or veggie Sausages.
If they don't eat meat, why on earth do they then pretend to eat it ?? I guess Justin should have a reality check, in my opinion, of course.
Oh, everyone have a happy christmas !!!!!
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Reply to 176. I tried to go veggie again just before i found i was pregnant. The problem being that it was ferrous iron causing my problems which i was informed by my midwife team was best found in red meat and thing like broccoli. Unfortunately i have a variety of other allergies limiting what i can and can't eat. Thank you for providing a good comment though. And i will be trying again once i have finished breast feeding.
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oh, i forgot to put, if it was my only option then i could and have caught, killed, prepared and eaten rabbit. But it isn't always an option... And i do try and keep waste to a minimum
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Can I just point something out here! We eat meat and plants therefore we are OMNIVORES not Carnivores sorry put it is a fairly important difference.
Incidently to those of you who do not eat meat because you oppose to the way the animals are treated, so be it. However how many of you do not use any products that contain any animal product? Leather and milk being the most obvious but gluten being another likewise many textiles.
The human body has evolved in such a way as to make us the most effective predator by a combination of brawn and brain, therefore physiologicaly it makes sense for us to eat meat. The same factors however have also created social evolution enabling us to chose what we want to eat. However in some countries they don't have that choice and in many of these countries the work that they can get is poorly paid hard labouring in various crop producing countries. So you also, if you are going to dictate your diet by your morals, have to take into account where the plants were grown (see also earlier comment re carbon footprint)
Religion can also dictate for example I've met several Muslims who unless they are going to a Halal restaurant or are in a predominantly muslim country when eating out they will say they are vegetarian.
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Sorry, just thought of this...
"Peace and goodwill at christmas time"... Why are we all slagging each other off? Can't we have a peaceful discussion?
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Also for a traditional English, or if you would prefer not to exclude a large portion of our country British, x-mas dinner then why not try Peacock or swan! ;-)
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PS To those saying about the fake meats - the point of being vegetarian for alot of people is nothing to do with whether the dead animal tastes good or bad, either way it's wrong when there is plenty other food that meets all our nutritional requirements. If we were veggie just because we thought meat tasted awful then I could see the point
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Thank goodness that guy on the One Show spoke up.I have been vegetarian for 41 years and Im fit and healthy,look years younger than my age and Im certainly not weak or anaemic as some of the previous ignorant posts suggested.We are bombarded with TV chefs cooking meat and with ever more violent and sensational angles-from the vile Ramsey killing puffins,Whittingstall murdering anything that moves to surely the most jaw droppingly nasty Kill it,Cook it,Eat it,where is the balance? where are the vegetarian cooking shows?we are blatently being snubbed. There are massive numbers of vegetarians in this country and its about time we stood up and said enough is enough.Animals live in hell on farms and suffer dreadfully at the end to arrive on your plate and it isn't necessary.
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I have read all the previous comments for and against non meat eaters with amusement and amazement at the ignorance some people have.
I am 66 years old and have been a non-meat eater for nearly 30 years purely on the grounds that I personally do not feel comfortable eating an animal which has been killed for me to eat. That is purely a personal opinion. I am a very healthy person,5'1" tall, 8stn 4lbs, low colestral, haemoglobin 13.8, take regular exercise and feel extremely fit. My point is that being a non meat eater has not in any way made me unhealthy. I do not not bully anyone to follow my diet, indeed I cook meat for my husband as that is his choice and not for me to make for him.
When I have visitors I cook a meat dish and a vegetarian dish to meet all tastes and quite regularly find the meat eaters eating the vegetarian dish.
It is all a matter of personal choice and I would never subject my guests to my opinion. I will be making my usual veggie roast to contribute to my family dinner and my son-in-law will cook his turkey crown and everyone is happy doing what they are comfortable with and that is how it should be. Please, all you guys out there , its the season of goodwill, live and let live, its your choice, but do not ridicule others if they don't agree with you. Bon appetite, whatever you chose.
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HappyGreenfinger (#187) Bravo, i love the eloquence with which you put your last point.
A point aside maybe but surely at the moment there are a few more pressing issues we should be fighting for such as our boys in the military who won't necessarily get to choose what they eat this christmas, if at all....
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Christmas is not about the food, or the gifts, it is about peace, goodwill and love. So does it matter what we eat so long as those we care about know we do.
Blaise
Cheshire
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re: 178 comment, mastersupremetv should read www.suprememastertv.com
and anyway, I was reading joe kloss 'The garden of eden' cookbook years ago, as well as reading thar it takes 5pounds of plant protein to make 1pound of meat. and 1acre of meat is the same as 5 acres of beans.
also, there maybe a problem with karma food. Thinking about where my food comes from can become quite absorbing.
We are forever being asked to be more spiritual and less materialistic, so maybe going vegan is an easy and simple way of going about it.
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I am a vegetarian, and I would stress that I am not the typical hippy/ecowarrior.
However, I am appalled at how little support their is for us veggies on this blog, and at peoples, quite honestly, ignorance/arrogance not to think that they are taking a life and simply not think twice about it.
I would MUCH rather have a live turkey than one all nicely packaged up in cellophane in the supermarket - people just don't think where the turkey has come from. Would they think the same if it was bits of human packaged up in the supermarket for consumption? I think not, and to me its the same thing.
I do appreciate the point that many animals would not exist in the first place if they weren't bred for meat, and I am not an idealist in a fantasy world. I don't mind if people eat meat, I honestly do not, particularly if they would be prepared to practice what they preach and kill the animal themselves rather than seeing it all prettily packed at the end not resembling the cute little lamb it once was. I would just ask people did not belittle our principles.
So yes, I am perfectly happy to have a meat free christmas, safe in the knowledge nothing has been sacrificed in my name.
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I like vegetarians ,I wouldn’t dream of eating a Carnivore
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In answer to post 179 the guy was pointing out that there is a huge range of vegetarian ready meals and meat substitutes available in the supermarkets for those people who maybe want to try dinner without meat,for example at Christmas,you can get a substitute for chicken.A lot of these products taste so like meat that you'd be surprised. As I have been a veggie/semi-vegan for so many years I find the taste and texture of some of these products too much like meat so I dont buy them but some people like to have a substitute.
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well what can i say??? if no meat is eaten there is no demand then the farmers go out of business putting more on the dole!!! do veggies drink milk??? no cow will produce it without giving birth to a calf and then produce for about 9 months, no calf no milk also no nice rich red meat!!! when it is going to be a world where people don't preach to others about their views??? it's already a nanny state over other issues, live and let live the ones of us that love our meat. ok animals die but no demand means no animals bred and they are killed more humanly than in the past. remember when we evolved we were hunter gatherers eating from the land and killing animals for our most food intake. the only ones to benefit from vegetarianism is the vitamin product producers. shall we turn over our pastures to beans and nuts?? well the wild boars would love that.... will the veggies protect the boars as well when they kill the countryside???
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Comment 121 "I think that eatind a dead animal is a waste of a life."
- If the animal is already dead how are we wasting a life? Should we just let all the dead animals suitable for food rot into the ground? That is a waste in itself.
Ok so we stop farming meat completely. I suspect lots of you are cat and dog owners etc. well cats NEED meat nutritionally because it has an essential amino acid (taurine) that they can't live without. Cats should not be fed a vegetarian diet unless you want a blind kitty with a heart problem, which in my opinion is even crueler than slaughtering for food. They have a natural urge to eat meat and denying them for your state of mind is ridiculous.
I’ve noticed this comment a lot "It takes ONE ACRE of land to farm one head of beef. This land would be better used to grow crops. The world could be fed then."
I suggest you also consult these articles before making this assumption http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17123076.600-cattle-pros-and-cons.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16121696.300-meaty-myth.html
Expanding on wbajax point, how many people against eating meat (excluding vegans) have milk in their tea every morning? Cows need to be lactating to produce milk - the result of giving birth to a calf (yes lactation can be induced artificially but this is controversial and is detrimental to the health and livelihood of the animal). Half of these calves will obviously be male. One bull to every cow is unnecessary (on average it's 1 bull for every 50 cows). I ask you what you intend to do with these surplus animals without a use that need "16lb of grain to produce 1lb of meat". As the average cow has a lifespan of around 15 years naturally, although the oldest cow on record was 48, that would means stumping up approx. £45 per animal per year not factoring in veterinary costs until its natural demise. Considering how many males are born per year and the economic crisis, you will have to dig very deep. Unless you are willing to pay for these animals, I suggest you find a humane way to get cows to produce your milk for you.
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Well done the One Show for allowing a veggie to put his views forward. We've got 8 people coming for a vegetarian lunch on Christmas day and although they are not all veggie, they are happy to eat vegetarain food with us. Eating meat is simply not ethical. But most meat eaters are too dim to understand the reasons. The poor suckers are just being taken in by the greedy meat industry.
I haven't eaten meat for many years. I'm slim, have no cellulite, healthy and very active, and I respect all living creatures. Why do meat eaters feel so threatened when vegetarians try to show them the damage they do to themselves and the planet?
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i must add after reading through a few comments i used to work on a farm, lovingly rearing pigs, sheep, calves, ducks, chickens and geese and then killing them quickly and humanly and then preparing them for the oven myself, my children were very young and i think it taught them an awful lot about life, reproduction and death at an early age, i would much prefer to buy straight from the farm than in supermarkets and see how the animals are kept. it's not all about money and cellophane wrappers. come on hugh and gordon you know what i mean !!!!!
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reply to jessbradley i don't even have milk at all i have an intolerance i was just asking a q. yes a lot of calves born are male and yes i agree they should be eaten i am a meat eater so don't get stressy with me
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Just to clarify I was elaborating on your question because I thought it was a good point, not getting stressy with you.
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Completely agree! Killing animals and eating them definitely is not what Christmas is about.
Our bodies do not require meat to survive - proven by all the vegetarians and vegans around the world and is a far healthy diet.
In addition - scientists have proven that raising livestock for food contributes 80% of worlds pollution. We're all talking about on how to help slow down global warming and climate change well giving up meat is one of them.
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I will be enjoying my Christmas dinner knowing that no poor little bird has had to suffer and die to make it possible. People would be horrified if you suggested serving up their precious pet dog or cat, so what is the difference.???
It is a rubbish comment about farmers going out of business aaaah diddums why cant they grow vegetables much more pleasant for the enviornment?
Lastly - dont knock it till you try it - guaranteed it will chnge your life for the better, forever.!
Jan
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In response to some previous comments,vegetarians pay their licence fees too and the BBC sees fit to use our money to pay the likes of vile,foul mouthed Ramsey to make his nasty little ''kill anything that moves'' meat promoting cooking [ha] shows not to mention Kill it,Cook it,Eat it. I wasn't aware there were quite so many ignorant,aggressive,arrogant people out there.Vegetarians are gentle and compassionate people and we always have to defend ourselves against you. You are in the wrong and that is why that one minute film on the One Show has got you so irate.Sharon,Wimbledon.
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i've posted before, im sure i'll post again but why are people generalising into us and them? surely it was just nice to see a bit of variety on our televisions, if you dn't want to listen, dont, if you do do... why does it matter what others are doing?
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Oh no. This is worse than going on BBC News "Have Your Say". How can you respond to someone who equates the choice to eat meat with greed? There simply is no logic to get to grips with. Just hysterical extremism.
To all those out there who are vegetarians because you personally don't like the thought of eating animals, I respect your right to be so. Pop round and I will whip up something tasty and meat free.
However, if you try to force me to accept your views or peddle the propaganda that I was subjected to on the TV tonight then I will ask you to leave unfed. It is OK to be a veggie without having to support your position with weak pseudo scientific nonsense.
There is not enough space here to address the arguments in full but humans did evolve to eat both meat and vegetables, our mixed farming culture evolved because it was the most efficient way of feeding ourselves so it is hard to justify a veggie revolution based on the science.
As for health, I try to encourage my kids to eat natural organic products. I have an allotment where we grow organically but I also eat meat that I source from local organic, free range outlets when possible (which is mostly). I therefore felt strongly about Mr Kerswell encouraging people to eat processed foods in the name of his crusade. Of course many veggies are healthy but it is not an automatically healthier choice and it is ridiculous to argue that it is.
I would love to say that I have a great BMI and am wonderfully fit but I am not perfect. I have a Biology degree and I know my own failings. I eat meat in modest amounts but my biggest weaknesses are cheese and wine.
What upsets me reading these posts is the aggression and extremism I see in some of them. Maybe the opposing contributors could find common ground in areas such as animal welfare?
Why crusade on issues that will simply provoke extreme resistance when there are battles that can be won through common consent?
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195.
You are one of the few meat eaters who have backed up claims with suitable proof.
It is clear that in New Zealand, by tradition, many animals are free-range. I do not know precisely, but I think that they do have a rather similar climate to ours. If they have a winter like ours it is probable that, for some of the year, they would be indoors, and probably fed on hay and concentrates, but I do not know the full details.
Anchor butter, from NZ, claims to be free range, and therfore(because of the Trade Descriptions Act) it must be so.
The veggie or vegan argument tends to go more like this.
If you grew, on a similar area of land a variety of grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits, you could feed about 10 vegetarians/vegans. On the same plot only one meat eater could survive.
Historically most of the world has been largely vegetarian. Some, through religion or moral beliefs being completely vegetarian (Hindu or Buddhist). Others would only eat meat at festivals.
In Britain historically the peasants ( about 90% of the population) survived largely on grains and vegetables. They were tougher than the effete gentry who ate mainly game and meat in huge quantities. Many got gout!!
In the modern west, in their ignorance some early orthodox nutritionists recommended protein levels as high as 100 gms. a day. This figure has been lowered to 70gms. (in the 1950s) and is now between 40gms. -50gms.
Much of the cancer and other western diseases are closely linked to high protein and animal fat diets.
Vegetarians have lower risks for these diseases mainly because they replace these foods with beans, grains and nuts. The vegetarians' foods contain less fat and better(unsaturated) fats.
In addition, most balanced vegetarian diets will contain nearer to 10 portions rather than the (government recommended) 5 portions of vegetables and fruit daily. On average the UK population consumes nearer to only 2 portions. That is why our NHS is taking £100 billion+ each year!
A few people have referred to medical/doctors' advice to eat meat. Please note that most doctors learn nutrition (very basic) for less than i week of their 7 year training. As with most professional training, it takes time for the latest research findings to reach the university teaching staff, who probably trained in an earlier era.
There are plenty of sound organisations like Viva or The Vegetarian Society who have websites to help people make sound decisions about going vegetarian.
Best veggie wishes to all for Christmas and the New Year.
What about a New Year's Resolution to go veggie?But keep to it!
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If the numpty who advocates not eating meat thinks that this will allow all of those amimals slaughtered for the butchers shop to be free to roam and enjoy their life then he must think again.
Farmers would just not produce them they are only available for profit.
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Response to the several people who have made various comments about killing animals is not what xmas is about!
True not anymore, nowadays it is about divorce, the common cold and crass comercialism; before that it was about the loving celebration of the founder of the christian faith, a man recognised in one capacity or another by many current major religions. And before that it was a pagan festival, one of the main themes of which was, thanking the god of the hunt for the animals which had been killed, to sustain the people through the hard winter months!
So to sum up xmas isn't what it was, but we might as well all try and enjoy it in which ever manner we choose!
The healthy issue: During the summer I lost weight I was living and working in Spain and the bulk of my diet was meat. Over the winter I am eating a higher proportion of veg and am putting on weight. Reason being I have a more sedentary lifestyle in the UK so whether or not you eat meat is a tiny attributor to your health. So long as you get a good balance of vitamins and minerals it doesn't matter too much!
With regards to comments about the amount of programmes that include how to cook meat, so what, sorry but there are worse travesties of the license payers money, hole in the wall for example, and if you feel strongly enough about it write to the BBC and if enough people do so then perhaps there will be a vegetarian segment on more cookery programmes or even a vegetarian cookery series! There one about how to cook Indian food so who knows! However as it stands they are reflecting the fact that the majority of people in the UK eat meat. (Majority is more than 50% in case anybody turns round as starts saying that there are lots of vegetarians and vegans) People eat meat because they either are unaware of the difference between meat and non-meat products or are aware and choose to eat meat! The majority of viewers of the One Show are intelligent enough to make up their own mind either way and as such I personally think that it was a pointless segment however a counterview or more productive viewpoint should have been shown!
And with regards to the end of post #202 what an egocentric and factually wrong 2 sentences.
1."Vegetarians are gentle and compassionate people and we always have to defend ourselves against you." As an earlier poster pointed out Hitler was vegetarian! I am sure there one or two folks out there who would agree that he wasn't exactly gentle and compassionate. Further what about animal rights (activists, protectors, extremists or choose another appropriate word) who break into animal testing facilities and physically threaten staff laborotists at said facilities? I admit that they are the minorities amongst an otherwise, merely occassionally vitriolic, group.
2."You are in the wrong and that is why that one minute film on the One Show has got you so irate." This is a healthy debate there is no right or wrong! If you ignore the dross posted by both sides of the argument there is a lot of intelligent discussion going on and very little of it could be anywhere near to be described as irate, annoyed perhaps applicable again to both sides of the coin!
But hey thats just my opinion!
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Turkeys.
In the wild, turkeys can fly at 50 mph and live for up to 30 years.
The ones bred on farms and killed after 1 year bear little resemblance. Many vegetarians would prefer to have a few wild turkeys, as part of nature. They would not, logically, want to have the inbred and overweight non-flying type to scatter around fields.
No vegetarian wishes beef and dairy farmers to stop living. All that they need do is grow grain, vegetables and fruit etc. as required for human health and they'd make a living.
It should be noted that most animal farming in the UK only survived because of government grants and support, in the mistaken belief that meat and dairy were essential foods.
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Hitler was a vegetarian.
No, he wasn't! For health reasons, for some of his life Hitler did decide to try vegetarian, as many people do now. He did not do it for compassionate reasons. In fact his favorite food was (meat) sausages.
Most people who become vegetarian, rather than being brought up that way, tend to make the change to reduce cruelty and unnecessary killing. They try to make a difference in their own lives rather than preach.
Tolstoy, Schweitzer, Einstein and Gandhi are, perhaps, better examples of people who recommended a vegetarian way of life.
After 55 years, I do recommend it a lot. Most people do not know what they are missing in terms of health and vitality.
Much science, for the last 40 years, has backed our views.
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Roll on Christ-mass....uproot a fine tree, stick it in a bucket, bedeck it with trinkets and baubles and watch it die. Then find a pitiful creature and release it from its life of purgatory after its still alive journey towards rotating knives into a steaming vat of water, then stuff your ugly face with it until you're sick. When you've finished, take the car to the pub, get plastered and anihilate a few innocent pedestrians on the way home. Don't worry about the damage, the NHS will pick up the tab.
Christmas is a time for massacre, and don't you forget it! Civilised? Who gives a toss, that's what made us what we are today.
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OK Hitler might not have been a Vegetarian all his life however I was using him to illustrate a point in that it is absurd to categorcally state that all vegetarians are gentle compassionate people! I had heard before that he was a vegtarian and that is why I chose to use him as an example I'm sure there are several other violent murderous vegetarians now if the statement had been Vegetarians tend to be more gentle... then yes that could well be a true and valid statement. Also I did not state his reasons for opting to not eat meat, I hardly thought it would be for compassionate reasons, compassion not being his strong subject.
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Oh and btw please don't cite science as much science can be used to back either side eg the de-evloving (don't know if thats the correct word) of the appendix and the possession of canine teeth. Please anybody arguing in favour stop mentioning Incisors as many herbivores have them for stripping tough plant matter away to get at more nutritional stuff.
On a compassion side do you wash your hands after eating? if so think of all the poor Germs you are killing for your improved welfare ;-P
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further to square12 in post #207 can we agree on some basic "facts"?
1) there is scientific research stating that it is healthy to have a balanced diet whether that includes meat or not is primarily a personal opinion in this instance since there is also scientific research stating that meat is an essential part and other research states that it isnt. Research can be made to say anything.
2) the way most of these animals are kept and slaughtered isn't the most humane but it is better than it used to be (i have been in one of the turkey breeding farms and they have pretty good conditions... far better than battery hens)
3) everyone is an individual and therefore will have a slightly different opinion to everyone else depending on what they have read and taken in.
before we get mildly annoyed can we also remember that whilst we may not agree with it, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
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Sounds like there's already an overpopulation of 'turkeys' in djcalzar's family, but sadly a lack of knowledge. Same goes for lennon-the-bunny who thinks it affects the brain. It does too, especially in the spelling department. As for hamish 139, stating homo-sapiens have 'large brains', -maybe they do but sadly they are devoid of content. Littlemartymouse, not so much releasing of gasses as a load of hot air. And finally 'gonolph', - 'Hunter gatherer?' That's charging down the aisle at Tesco hunting for a bargain and gathering it all together at the cashpoint is it?
I can't believe the ignorance shown in most of what I've read above but I'm truly saddened by it. No wonder the country is in such a mess!
Roberta, Malaga.
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just a thought... ok, most people can't kill what they eat if they are meat eaters but how many of us could grow their own produce, slightly easier to do but its not something everyone can do...
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In reply to post 207 from Square 12. 1. Previous posts had moaned that the 1 minute film on the One Show was a waste of their licence fee and I merely pointed out that while they may not agree with the vegetarian sentiments expressed,vegetarians also pay that fee and have to put up with endless,ever more sensational cookery shows promoting meat. 2. Non meat eaters are generally peaceful and gentle people and,yes,we DO have to defend and explain ourselves against meat eaters. Look what we are doing now ! 3.You think that people who break into labs to rescue tortured creatures are not gentle but violent when they are the very opposite.They are the compassionate ones.The people inside the labs are the violent ones and anyway,not all animal activists are vegetarians.
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Well I say well done to the One Show for providing us with this innovative slot of television. My husband and I (who are 21 and 22) are both vegetarian and will be having a vegetarian Christmas along with my mother, father and brother in law who are also vegetarian and a selection of friends. Don’t you realise that it was not preaching but offering you a better way of life? Or at the very least an alternative, or a point for consideration. It merely explained the pro’s of a healthy lifestyle choice. You seem pretty riled up by that, are you so sure you’re right? Or not just sensitive about a choice that you know in the 21st century to be quite archaic, barbaric and just feeling that you need to conform to an ideal that like many before have come to be seen as outdated and plainly wrong.
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Just to settle the same over repeated argument by these mindless meat eaters, how many turkeys do you see roaming wild in Britain? If you stopped eating them, what sight am I gonna miss? Turkey’s are interesting looking birds, I’m sure if you let some wander around the parks with the other ducks and swans, kids could go through bread at them too.
In this country we don’t eat cats, dogs and horses, yet they are not on the endangered list. Didn’t it seem counter logical when you typed it out, “duh, if we don’t eat them, they won’t exist!”
Make a choice, would you prefer (a) to be born, into captivity, slaughtered, then your body cut up and eaten. Or
(b) Not born at all (under the above circumstances). And the more natural existing number of your species lead a simple wild and full life.
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my father worked in Huntingdon life sciences research facility for a few years. He was disgusted by the treatment of the animals hence why he left but in his time there he recieved death threats by these so called peaceful and compassionate people. My father was not involved in any of the research but he still recieved threats. I will not tar everyone with the same brush but there are people out there ho believe they are doing the right thing but aren't or are looking at the wrong people. No abuse please, im not my father. and he was working many years ago before people were really thinking about animal rights
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to be honest what is this debate all about... we live in a supposedly free society (im going to ignore politics for a while)...this started as a debate about wether christmas is the same without the traditional roast...now it seems to have turned into a slanging match between people who eat meat and people who dont...
i live on a farm...in a rural area and ive been to slaughter houses...and these claims about animal brutality are unfounded in general
my advice to people who care about animal wellfare is to buy from local shops where you can... it will be just as cheap... better quality...
to me a traditional roast brings my family together and i doubt it would be the same if it was veggie...
its all well and good to generalise people who eat meat as blood thirsty and caveman like but in all honesty we (the meat eating ones) dnt stop u eating veg cos it was picked violently or it travelled in a tight container.
you cant personify animals or see animals raised on farms like the animals u have in your homes...
their not brought up the same way and their "outlook on life" will be different from your family pet.
thanks
Nick
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Most of the time we say the world is going to be more advanced, cilivised etc but we seems to have forgotten the real meaning of life or the celebration of love, especially at such special occasion.
In all aspects, whether it is for health, environmental, spiritual, or moral reasons, Vegetarian way of life should be recommended and promoted.
There's no surprise to see many people find it hard to accept this idea as we have been wrongly informed since young that 'Meat' is good for health. The government, media and educational institutions should be responsible to take the lead to reverse this wrong perception.
If we truely live our life with compassion, we won't think that animals are raised for us to eat. All lives are precious and should deserve to live the same as humans. Ignorance of the 'facts' is the problem.
A highly developed, civilised, and stable society, requires people with high thinking and noble ideals, with more peace and love to all lives. Hope that we all can seriously re-think about our habitual way of living our life now and make wise decision that brings fairness to others and good consequences to our planet earth.
You may find some supportive information from the links below:
www.All-Creatures.org
www.FactoryFarming.com
www.HumaneReligion.org
www.JesusVeg.com
www.PCRM.org
www.Veg4Lent.org
www.VeganOutreach.org
www.VegetarianTeen.com
www.VegSource.com
www.VRG.org
God Bless Our Animal Friends and Wish All Humans can open their hearts to recognise all lives/souls as precious as ourselves.
Humans the greatest and wisest beings on earth, can't we just let go of the taste of others' flesh? Do we really need to kill others for our selfish pleasure?
Compassion, Compassion and Compassion please!!
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To post #21 - stresseddad
Your son got ill from not eating enough meat? Your doctor (if he really said that in seriousness) is the one who’s ill. I’ve been vegetarian since birth, I’m six foot two, twelve stone, built, definition and could kick most of your four percent pork buts if I had the mis-privilege of meeting you ignorant, uncompassionate dregs of our so-called society.
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Most of the time we say the world is going to be more advanced, cilivised etc but we seems to have forgotten the real meaning of life or the celebration of love, especially at such special occasion.
In all aspects, whether it is for health, environmental, spiritual, or moral reasons, Vegetarian way of life should be recommended and promoted.
There's no surprise to see many people find it hard to accept this idea as we have been wrongly informed since young that 'Meat' is good for health. The government, media and educational institutions should be responsible to take the lead to reverse this wrong perception.
If we truely live our life with compassion, we won't think that animals are raised for us to eat. All lives are precious and should deserve to live the same as humans. Ignorance of the 'facts' is the problem.
A highly developed, civilised, and stable society, requires people with high thinking and noble ideals, with more peace and love to all lives. Hope that we all can seriously re-think about our habitual way of living our life now and make wise decision that brings fairness to others and good consequences to our planet earth.
You may find some supportive information from the links below:
www.All-Creatures.org
www.FactoryFarming.com
www.HumaneReligion.org
www.JesusVeg.com
www.PCRM.org
www.Veg4Lent.org
www.VeganOutreach.org
www.VegetarianTeen.com
www.VegSource.com
www.VRG.org
God Bless Our Animal Friends and Wish All Humans can open their hearts to recognise all lives/souls as precious as ourselves.
Humans the greatest and wisest beings on earth, can't we just let go of the taste of others' flesh? Do we really need to kill others for our selfish pleasure?
Compassion, Compassion and Compassion please!!
Leong, Ashford Kent
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if you read some of my past posts... Everyone is different, what works for one may not work for another. Not eating meat made me ill, that does not make me any less compassionate. post #222 actually shocks me, i thought we had managed to have a reasonable discussion without the directed slagging off. I personally would not call myself ignorant, uncompassionate or the dregs of the society, please excuse me for saying this but if we can't be tolerant of each others views and experiences what are we all doing here posting?
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Please before you make a reply check the definition of words:
To be violent is to perform an act in an aggressive manner!
To be compassionate is to understand and empathise and to want to cause an end to another beings suffering!
So they are both violent and compassionate the 2 are not mutually exclusive.
To further compound your ignorance you have then gone on to say that someone who is performing a scientific experiment in a controlled environment are violent! They may wrong, they may be unjust, they may be cruel but I think violent is a bit beyond the bounds of credit!
Therefore I did not say they are not compassionate I said they are not gentle in the example you are replying to the example contradicting that vegetarians are compassionate was the Hitler one and as I said he was merely an example.
You say that you are constantly having to defend yourselves yet in my experience it is the other way round and I will give 2 examples to support this 1 general and the other specific:
1Walking down the main shopping street going about my business I get stopped by someone asking me to sign a petition about the way that animals are treated! Now as it happens I do disagree with cosmetic animal testing. However with regards to medicinal I feel it is a very grey area and can understand both the for and against opinions.
2.Walking down the street wearing a t-shirt that is a parody of the meat is murder t-shirts (it said meat is dinner) I get stopped by a gentlemen who had misread the t-shirt and started to extol the virtues of his veg meals for the homeless scheme. He then re-read the slogan and promptly asked if I was an advocate of what my t-shirt said. When I replied that I was I had to put up with several minutes of vitriol about how I was a murderer and how evil I was.
For the record as I stated before if I had to kill my own meat I would but it is easier for me to have someone else do it. If I could eat only organic and free range meats I would but I cannot afford it!
At what point did I say all animal activists are vegetarians?
Re-read what I said about the TV bit please and take your blinkers off this time I said that a balanced view should have been presented instead of what essentially boiled down to: "Eating meat at x-mas is bad and unhealthy you should eat these processed fake meats instead if you want the taste and texture of meat!"
Isn't healthy debate fun folks!
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So we will eat 11,000 animals in our lifetime will we?! Maybe ... if we all ate slugs.
Supposing we all have a good life and reach 80 years of age: we would have to eat over 1/3 of an animal every single day from birth to death. I could manage 1/3 of a small fish perhaps - but I don't think I could eat a third of a cow every day.
If turkeys were as clever as humans, they would be eating us. They aren't, and it's called the food chain. We are all part of it.
Fanatics like this, spouting ridiculous statistics, just alienate sensible people. Why give them air-time?
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well done on post 226 especially last comment...
thanks
Nick
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i just realised i never answered the question... my christmas will be the same this year as every year... we have salmon instead of turkey and we have a light lunch but i celebrate yule more which is the pagan celebration of what mother earth has given us... and also i celebrate chanuka. So, i don't eat meat at christmas, i eat fish. Where does that put me?
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depends on your views on what a vegetarian is...or what a meat eater is...
people seem to have a different definition...
i tend to think of fish as a meat...i mean ther is salmon steak...i think its in the name itself...
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ive eaten quorn and had vegetarian meals...
and in my opinion the veggie "meat" doesnt taste anywere near as good as proper meat
if your concerned about health...eat ostrich meat...tastes beautiful and has barely any fat...
concerned about animal welfare ... eat from your local shops...their meats will be taken from local farms which are generally quite small scale...they look after their animals because they have to to survive as a small business...this in turn gives you a better quality meat for similar if not cheaper price and also helps your local economy...
british meats are the best... you just have to look closer to your home than the supermarket for the best looked after meat with the best taste and cheaper price...
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Why did Christine not try it and pull THAT face? Surely it can’t be any worst than an old cooked animal carcass? I am a media student (3rd year degree) and surely someone being paid to work in that position is being paid to try (or at least pretend to)...I think she is an incompetent presenter at the best of times. You’re not telling me that everything produced by a chef on national TV that presenters have to try is delicious, yet the presenter tries it and says so. I myself don’t like Quorn as it reminds me too much of real meat and that chewy texture of flesh is what puts me off, but it just tastes like meat! I have been a vegetarian since I was 7 years old, about 15 years now since the mad cow disease debacle. At that age even I realised that something as questionable a meat could harm my body...not only in this way but in salmonella, rotten meat and give me food poisoning. I realised I would rather stick to food that was natural to the extent that if I didn’t cook and prepare correctly it would poison me. I also pay my licence fee (obviously) and I am glad that finally the ever increasing minority in which I am part of is being catered for. I cannot believe people have said that this report was biased towards vegetarianism and no one has brought up the fact that is was biased from the start, reported from a minority “laugh at it” perspective! It was not handled in the way that I hope it will be allowed to be in the future. But this was a good starting point.
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To deep_think_3, post #224 I have a hostile nature towards people who say they “need” to eat meat, typically because I haven’t been granted fair or even graces by your kind throughout my life. There is not a medical condition on earth (requiring meat) that could not be treated with an alternative method. There is more protein and iron in certain beans and pulses than there is in meat. My wife was told by a private doctor ten years ago when she was having her tonsils out “you’re a vegetarian? Can’t you try to eat some meat, even a Macdonalds burger once a month or something?” (the truth honest!) now when you analyse how ridiculous this comment sounds, you may come to realise that like every human being people have opinions that aren’t based necessarily on factual truth.
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To #224, also, do not neglect the fact that the discussion was tainted from point one onwards away from "are you having turkey this christmas?" against vegetarianism, as you did in your first point, when you said you need to eat meat. Now, if you want to swap recipes, I'll be happy to do so, but after excitedly going on the internet to congratulate a show which for one minute appealed to belief, my value, my family, my minority, and was met by the torrent of unbelievably ludicrous opinions, which I hadn't heard the likes of since the playground, my mood somewhat changed.
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One last pause for thought:
Our civilisation has fortunately sociologically and philosophically evolved past the state of viewing the women and other races as inferior and endowing them with the equal rights they deserve (if you disagree, this point doesn’t apply to you as you are a worthless piece of barely-human garbage).
At some point in the hopefully (and probably) not too distant future, human civilisation WILL become entirely vegetarian. In that generation they will think back occasionally, as we do of racists and sexists and ignorant bigots in general, and think “how were they that barbaric? That ignorant? That uncompassionate?” and when they think this, they will be thinking of you (the omnivores who didn’t bother to choose)... bare that in mind.
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It's funny to see how all the anti veggie stereotypes show up....
Yes, ofcourse we are all tree hugging hippies....not!
I have been vegan for nearly 2 years, and no animal product has been used at all. I can live happily in the knowledge that I am living a healthy lifestyle.
I make some excellent vegan brownies, and the meatless stir frys are the best.
I respect that everyone has their own morals and beliefs, but what annoys me the most is that as soon as something is said about vegetarians/vegans suddenly it's labeled as pushing that way of life down other peoples throats. Isn't it so that generally it's the other way? Meat eating is promoted at all costs without regard for people's beliefs and morals.
Live and let live, specially at Christmas time. Try a veggie christmas without dead animal on your plate and then come back and tell me it was rubbish.....I guarantee you that you won't say that....
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Reading the comments from the a majority of the carnivorous folk, i can now see why i could not be associated with that type of mentality and therefore changed my diet. This year i will not be partaking in the murder of innocent animals (as with the last 30 years) just for the pleasure of it. Shame that most people cannot even read current litrature, regarding statistics, health and disease but still they harp on about this and that with nothing to back it up with. From my own experience veggies read up on what they eat rather than take it for granted and stuff their faces with food that is not even fit for human consumption.
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If being a vegetarian is so good, why do the companies and veggies spend so much effort in making their food look and taste like meat and meat products.
The comment about us eating 11000 animals in our lifetime as a carnivor just does not add up, look at the numbers people. If this was right they would have to be pretty small amimals, this is the typical of the sort of comment you would expect from a fanatical extremist.
Most canivors eat a balanced meal of meat and vegetables, what is so wrong with that?
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I have lost 1st in four weeks , by not eating meat :) i need to lose 3 to be healthy
i would like to mention that i have no problem with meat eaters at all but it doesnt do everyone good to eat.
the one show the other day had a bit on turkeys and generally shows a balanced view and discusses all points.
christine yesterday upset me she wouldnt even try that quorn and i think that was disgusting .
ok quorn bacon is rank .. but alot of other quorn products are nicer ,
someone said that veggies drink milk , i drink milk (soya milk) .
It is up to you what you eat for christmas , i dont care however just except that everyones different ,
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Hi, I am alarmed at the lack of knowledge on this subject. Lets get the silly one out of the way. Hitler was not a Vegetarian (so does that now mean all meat eaters are crazy dictators ?) no of course not. There are records of Hitler eating meat. At the end of his life he had an illness which meant his body couldn't tolerate meat. Vegetarianism is a moral choice. He didn't choose to not eat meat. He was a mad dictator, don't you think he would have tried to impose it on everyone else if it was a moral chice. Next : meat eating humans are not carnivores we are all omnivores , we choose what we want from our Environment. Next : When he said going veggie saves 11,000 lives , he meant 11,000 fewer animals would need to be bred thereby saving them from being born and abused. Next : meat production and it's effects are not just about methane emissions. Though it is true the industry is responsible for 18% of all greenhouse gas emissions and it is the single biggest thing we could do to reduce our footprint (ie. go veggie) But the industry is responsible for some deforestation, water and air pollution and soil erosion. Also we could feed more people on a veggie diet. It is a very ineffecient way to produce food. About 50%of our water is used to rear animals and about 70% of the crops we grow are fed to animals. That is perverse given that millions if not billions are starving. With the population of the planet the way it is billions of animals have to be intensively bred on an industrial scale. Imagine the miserable life they must have. Lastly what is more important than the Environment , Nothing.we wouldn't exist without it. After 25 years as an Envionmentalist i know how serious and urgent the situation is. Within 10 years even the average Joe in the street will realise also, it will be that obvious. We should do everything we can. We owe it to the next generations. I love the taste of meat but the future of the planet is more important than a few seconds of transient pleasure each day, it's a no brainer. Peoples reaction to this is similar to smoking , they don't want to give up something they enjoy so they make excuses. Merry xmas.
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To say that Vegetarians are unhealthy is simply not true. One of the longest and most indepth studies by a respected biologist over many years showed that Vegetarians are less likely to get cancer and heart disease and also live on average slightly longer. The scientist fully expected to prove the opposite so wasn't biased towards Vegetarianism. Many athletes are Veggie , i won't bore you with a long list but Carl Lewis and Ed Moses are 2. As for looking good well how about Joanna Lumley and Leona Lewis. Some of the comments have been rude , abusive and personal to this guy. He's a man that cares. What kind of society are we turning into when so many people think it's appropriate to abuse someone who is caring. Sad, very sad.
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What is the BBC doing allowing air time for the Vegetarian Society to blatantly broadcast propaganda.
If they are so dead against eating meat products why do they have to have imitation turkey, chicken, sausages etc!!!
Also if there are no animals can they tell us who is going to eat the grass!!
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I will be having Turkey and other meats at Christmas and at most other meals. The suggestion that we should go vegitarian to stop all the animals venting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere is not valid. If we all go veggie we will be venting the gases instead. See the film Blazing Saddles!!Further, we will not save any animals by being vegitarian because if we don't eat them they will be killed as the farmers will not be able to keep them if no-one wants to buy them.
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Please, as I said before as far as I'm concerned the saving the environment in my opinion holds no water.
1. If everyone had gone veggie then there would increased shipping costs involved plus the increased cost of providing veg out of season etc.
2.Feeding the population errrm hate to break it to everyone but there is already enough food to feed the world population. It is a matter of distribution of wealth so if planet earth was turned into one giant socialist state then everyone would be fed. Not that I advocate socialism.
The point about doctors recommending eating meat, not everyone is prepared to turn round to somebody who undergone years of training and say sorry I think you are wrong I'm not going to eat meat despite your advice.
The point about doctors at most having undergone a week of nutrition. So what, how many nutritionists have undergone training relating to other diseases, viruses ailments wwhatevr that may or may not be prevetned by the consumption of meat.
A quick one on the smoking point raised there as it happens I and all my family are non-smokers however I feel that the smoking ban is a breach of my freedom. Also a lot of smokers don't enjoy it but are addicted so bad example!
In answer to the actual question though:
Is it christmas without the meat dinner? Yes
Christmas is what you make of it. For me where possible that involves turkey with leftovers for sandwiches the following couple of days, stuffing pigs in blankets, cocktail sausages, dates wrapped in bacon and if mum puts any other meat on the plate I'll enjoy that too. I have however spent the last 4 christmas period living and working in Tunisia, twice in Andorra and then Romania. Try experiencing xmas in a muslim country it is a very different event. For me xmas dinner was turkey, stuffing, meatballs, roast potatoes and mash served in the home of a Swedish christian woman who was married to a Tunisian muslim man. We went on to smoke the hookah pipe!
So as I say xmas is what you make of it!
With or without the meat!
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to say that there would be no anilmals if they were not farmed is ridiculous. Turkeys are not even indigenous to the uk and it takes far more vegetable protein to produce meat than it does to use it directly to feed people, so perhaps instead of being so judgemental people got their facts straight first and opened their minds a bit!
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Dear Isleofpie, I think you will find that Jesus would not have eaten bacon as he was bought up a Jew.
Anyhow, I will be eating the same meal as the meat eaters in my house, except that the bacon, sausages and turkey will be replaced with quorn products. I am in my 40 years old and go to the gym, take part in circuit training sessions, so believe me I amn very slim and fit.
I don't force my views on my partner, but I do only allow free range, well reared meat in the house. I don't object to people eating meat, but I do object to them using animals and not respecting the life that was given up in their honour.
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I have to take issue with Adrian's comment that
"if we didn't eat Turkeys at Christmas then they would be able to live a long life and die of old age"
If nobody ate Turkeys then no Turkeys would be bred and they wouldnt' exist! By eating Turkeys we are giving them a life and ensuring the preservation of the species!
The same goes for all other domestic animals!
Chris from Norwich
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merely a thought to those who think that this was biased or propaganda either way... 1) they have to make it a story or relatively interesting else noone will watch it. 2) the way the world changes is a slow and arduous process and it is only by there beginnings that we can learn the differences. 3) propaganda is something that is not necessarily truth being forced upon us left right and centre till we believe... this can be for some of the worst lies imaginable. 4) more people will say "yes, why?" to are you eating turkey this christmas than would say "no, why?" to are you eating (eg) quorn this christmas. It was just a title and a way of getting people to listen. Surely if those who want the world to turn veggie want people to listen then they should use whatever means necessary?
again, where do you put me in that? i eat fish and rarely meat. i actually don't like the texture of meat so to me it is not something i often eat because of preferance.
oh and i almost forgot again... there are people out there (i know many of them) who flatly will not eat vegetables because they make them ill too... my partner can't eat things like onions, mushroms, carrots, brussel sprouts etc without throwing up... should he starve? (beside the point but he only eats chicken and fish anyway... and free range chicken at that)
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he does eat potato...
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To Chris from Norwich and all the other misguided people who think that they are in some way doing farm animals a favour by creating a market for their existence:
Please watch the following videos and then reconsider whether or not these animals have anything remotely resembling a quality of life:
http://www.viva.org.uk/video/stuffed.html
http://www.viva.org.uk/video/piginhell.html
And as for preservation of species!? Claiming that the production and slaughter of millions of genetic freaks bred to yield the largest quantity of meat in the shortest time possible, is something to do with species protection? I mean please. If you want to save the wild counterparts of these animals that's a different matter, but don't insult our intelligence by pretending that factory farming is somehow altruistic from a conservation perspective.
A question to stretch some imaginations: how many meat defenders would celebrate Christmas by buying a dog or cat in September, locking it in their tiny garden shed with 50 other miserable/aggressive dogs or cats, feeding it with a cocktail of antibiotics, ignoring any injuries and then finally slitting its throat and serving it up on the Christmas dinner table? If you wouldn't do this to your pets then don't do pay for other people to do it to pigs, turkeys, cows etc.
As for some of the trite, mis-spelt and ungrammatical nonsense from meat-eaters on this comment board, a Gandhi quote springs to mind:
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
So we're about 50% of the way there! Keep up the great work, Viva! Happy cruelty-free Christmas!
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since when were pets and livestock classed under the same distinctions? If you really want to have an opinion go to an abattoir or one of these farms yourself. i have had to in the course of my previous job. in all fairness these animals do not have as good a quality of life as they might have but they have a better one than some. before i type the next bit, how many of you buy free range?
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oh and injuries are not ignored, even on the basic level an injury is not conducive to good meat...
the antibiotics make sure they are not ill ensuring that their short life is not miserable or wasted...
and slitting its throat? most (im not saying all) at least have the dignity of being stunned first so they have no knowledge of whats going on and in the places i've been in where they prepare the turkeys they were effectively electrocuted rather than had their throat slit since it was deemed more humane
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those vegetarians of you who eat eggs... do you buy free range?
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if you don't and buy anything else... then you are subjecting those hens to a worse life than ANY of our animals bred for meat are and at the end of it the egg isn't as good for you and the hen is killed for no reason simply because it doesn't lay anymore
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i think rather than trying to turn the world veggie or to all meat eating.... we should be spending our time trying to ensure that these animals are treated humanely and especially not imported... this is far harsher on the animals than anything else we do...
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I am surprised that the BBc allowed The Ones Show to be used for blatant propoganda, some balance or questioning of the supposed facts should have been presented at the same time.
The piece included one a glaring abuse of statistics, the claim that vegetarians are healthier and live longer that the general population. In statistical terms this statement can only be made if the two groups compared are identical in all aspects except their diet. We have recently heard about the post code differences in life expectancy, sometimes as much as 20 years. Are vegeterians evenly distributed in the population? I guess not, vegetarians are more likely to be middle class, professional, relatively affluent, the social group that enjoys the longest life expectancy. The general population on the other hand will include very significant numbers from areas with poor diet and lifestyle, vegetarian or otherwise.
The One Show has been exemplary at providing readily accessible information about health, financial and other aspects of life, this is a valuable public service. Please do not tarnish its reputation by allowing it to become the mouthpiece of sectional propoganda.
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Before we continue bandying the word propagana around, please can we think what it means:
"The YourDictionary Web site defines propaganda as “any systematic, widespread dissemination or promotion of particular ideas, doctrines, practices, etc. to further one's own cause or to damage an opposing one.”"
was the one show's article systematic? widespread dissemination? Was it trying to damage an opposing cause? I think not. I think it was merely an article giving the viewer an insight into the other options so please can we stop using this word inaccurately.
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Could your veggie explain to me (a carnivore) why if he doesn't eat meat would he want all those lovely vegetables to look like meat? ie veggie sausages burgers chicken bacon etc.
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generally those things like quorn are actually made from a type of fungus
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", missvictoriageorge wrote:
I have lived for 30 years without eating meat and I am healthy.
Meat eaters will always try to justify their greed. Just look at some of the above ludicrous posts.
Compassion versus Greed.......look at the planet....greed always wins."
miss victoriageorge, do you even know me?
so by that, by your post, since i'm a meat eater, i'm greedy and heartless and incapable of being humane. is that what your saying? i found that comment somewhat childish, for it was very "black and white".
life is more complicated darling.
i adore animals and i see them as my equal. yes as my equal, for i'm an animal too.
that's the problem of some vegetarians, some don't see themselves as animals but like superior beings, taintless of "primitive impulses" but i bet, if circumstances changed and you lost everything, no money and no livelyhood, starving, you would eat meat.there's no question about that, when your really hungry you eat ANYTHING.
i speak out of experience, of which i rather not delve on.
i don't preach people to eat meat so i would be really grateful if those that are vegetarian don't preach me either.
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paso-girl, wonderful. i think people should remember that point about when you are hungry you eat anything. think about our poor guys abroad in the military who don't get much of a choice what they eat, do you think they would refuse to eat on the grounds it was meat?
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I cannot believe the ignorance in some of these comments...
First of all the 'meat' industry AND farmers breed well over the volume of what is actually required which is why so many animals end up in the dustbin wasted or just disregarded. The many forms of cruelty involved is barbaric and many can end up dead in factory farms before they even get to the slaughterhouses. Millions are spent on producing a food that is worth a fraction of its production cost. Plant-based foods contain all the nutrients you need and are naturally low in fat and high in fibre. Plus, meat contains saturated fats which are a main cause of heart disease, stroke and cancer. Vegetarians are much less likely to suffer from these diseases. As a vegetarian we live and eat well with a clear conscious that no living creature has been murdered for what equates to 10 minutes of comsumption and yes we do look good on it. Our whole family is vegetarian and proud to be.
We are actually omnivores which suggests we can eat hard produced food or in the form of plantation...the hard produced food does not necessarily suggest meat, it could mean hard nuts or such like.
We have our own Chickens so our eggs are definitely free range.
To suggest the BBC is being biased on producing an item on being vegetarian is an outcry - how many television programmes do we (vegetarians/vegans) have to put up with that contain meat ingredients - last year not one cookery show produced a Christmas meat free meal.
As for Jesus the only text that suggests he was a meat eater was in Luke 24:41-43 but as clearly pointed out by Mark and Matthew Jesus could not have ate meat at this time as he was on his way to Galilee so even we have to submit that Jesus may have been a vegetarian...
I will put compassion before consumption and continue to live my cruelty free life.
Are we really a nation of animal lovers? Reasearch your food this Christmas and you will certainly find we are not!
Maggie - Somerset
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FoxyladyinSomerset
true, meat has saturated fat, but not ALL of it is bad. we do need all kind of fats for our brains to function properly.
everything is good if under moderation.
just like eating only meat is bad so is eating veggies.
veggies haven't got the same amount of iron and nutrients that meat has.it has, but not the same amount.
my best friend is a vegetarian and she has needed to take special supplements and vitamins in order for her body to be in tip top condition.i hardly call that being healthy.
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oh, and why do we have to bring jesus into this?
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im glad someone has free range chickens there seem to be so few out there. unless i am mistaken which i may well be as this is only on minimal research but i think i am correct in saying that whilst more plant life can be grown to feed people it also takes more of it to sustain one person. meat contains some essential vitamins and nutrients that may well be found elsewhere but are prevalent in meat. some people are allergic to nuts etc so what do they eat for those nutrients? im not well read on what else they can have so suggestions welcome.
as far as compassion goes surely being compassionate would be better directed towards researching humanitarian conditions and slaughtering techniques.
i abhor the use of the word murder as it is a term used for human killings of themselves for no purpose and is reserved for human meanings. its is emotive and evocative and generally used for effect. we do not murder animals since we do not assume they can speak, walk round in human society, get a job, have the intelligence to live in our society with a job. therefore we do not murder anything, we murder anyONE. are you saying that animals are human (im not saying that humans are not animal)
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again paso-girl, i agree with your comments and i would like to reiterate your question of why IS jesus being brought into this?
and thank you for pointing out some of the vegetarian problems
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Yeah whats jesus got to do with chistmas? Oh hang on sorry kinda self explanatary. Although I kind of doubt that Jesus was a vegetarian who went round telling others not to eat meat. I mean I'm not an expert on the bible or anything but did he not feed a bunch of folks with FISH!!!! Was he not born in a stable with lambs you know the kind that are bred for food!
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nothing is perfect and without its problems
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christmas was initially a pagan celebration, it has nothng to do with jesus. he was born end of september beginning of october. but i like your comment its fitting
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i've just looked in my dictionary (oxford) and it says; murder: to kill (a person) unlawfully and intentionally.
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Oh and btw is there a traditional meal at this time of year for any other religions? I think Yom kippur is about this time I of year or it migh be one of the other Jewish festivals. No fixed date Muslim ones that I know of at this time of year and don't have the foggiest with Hindu, Buddhist, Seikh, etc.
Sorry I just thought I'd split the question down its other logical branch ie the religous aspect of the question.
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just a thought but thinking of the bible werent the jews told to mark their door with lambs blood so that when the angel of death flew over it would miss their houses, isn't that a form of pointless slaughter. Pasach or passover festival marks that doesnt it?
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thank you paso girl, i thought it was human based
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Christmas is about Jesus. There was a pagan festival celebrating the winter solstice at the same time of year, but it was not called christmas see one of my earlier comments way up the ladder. Several other countries celebrate 6th Jan which I think they mentioned at some point in the show which was the Gregorian calendars 25th Dec!
But thank you for your appreciation!
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now i've been thinking about this.
is it really murder if a pig or turkey is killed for eating purposes?
i mean, murder in my point of view is often done with malicious intent and without much purpose. i think that's a point that the dictionary has forgotten.
i don't know...what do you think?
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im pagan... yule is 21st this year, the romans i think it was decided to take roughly the pagan time of the celebration and make it into a christian one since they werent sure which out of christianity or paganism would survive... I think...
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yes, i think murder is with malicious intent but i think that malicious intent is definitely without a purpose so if the purpose is fulfilled (being eaten) then i dont see how it can be murder especially not considering that i see the term murder as an entirely human concept. for example if a lion kills a gazelle is that murder? if a fox kills all someones hens but doesn't eat them is that murder??? i can't see it somehow...
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good point, Deep_Think_3.
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Sort of right the romans started off by saying well ok you can still worship (Gaia and Huron?) but so long as you understand that Jupiter (I think) is the head honcho, Which then became Oh btw Jupiter has changed his name to god oh and btw those other gods you're not allowed to worship them anymore!
Ah the whole murder debate it is not murder. Murder is an illegal act please do not detract from the heinous act of taking another humans life without their consent by comparing it with the act of killing livestock!
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Oh and the fox thing they only do that when they get disturbed if left to it they would kill all the chickens then go back for them and bury them all and dig them up in various states of decay but they would eat them!
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Thank you for confirming that for us square 12. Gods and goddesses names were slightly wrong but the idea is the same. Im glad someone agrees with me about not taking a terrible thing like murder and applying it to animals. Thank you both.
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noticed a little pig in the clip - not sure they'd have had pigs in a Jewish household, even plastic ones.
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which clip? and lol, you're right...
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It was wonderful to hear the programme on Wednesday, and so I hope many people who usually eat meat will spare a thought for all the animals who live out their short lives in misery, more especially turkeys at this time of year.
Perhaps some will make a New Year Resolution to make 2009 a meat free year and in the future after watching your programme.
From one who has not eaten meat for thirty years and remain very healthy still, I like animals so don't eat them.
Barbara
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In response to 256
"The YourDictionary Web site defines propaganda as ?any systematic, widespread dissemination or promotion of particular ideas, doctrines, practices, etc. to further one's own cause or to damage an opposing one.?"
Your defence is semantic. Clearly one appearence on one TV programme cannot be considered systematic but this particular broadcast forms part of what many people would consider a propaganda campaign by an extremist organisation.
Bottom line is, I don't want my family exposed to crusaders like Kerswell on prime time TV unless it forms part of a balanced piece of programming. It did not so I have complained.
I note that most of the hysterical ranting on this blog is still coming from the extremists on the vegitarian side of the argument.
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"Bottom line is, I don't want my family exposed to crusaders like Kerswell on prime time TV unless it forms part of a balanced piece of programming. It did not so I have complained."
So 1 minute of someone talking about a vegetarian christmas is seen as propaganda and you don't want to be subjected to that over dinner in a family show. What about us vegetarians and vegans who are subjected to hours of meat promoting programmes!!! Talk about unequal exposure.....
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Reading through the posts again it seems to boil down to the following: The segment had very little impact in so far as it didn't change many peoples opinions. This I think is because the figures that he used are just numbers and people still don't associate the number with the actual animals whether or not the figure is correct, which I doubt. He then went on to show that there are alternatives but are they true alternatives? I have tried the faux meats and I found them tasteless and with an unpleasant texture, I assume there are many people who have similar opinions about different, or all, cuts of meat. To me faux meats are like e-books they just aren't the same as the real thing and don't even come close.
If someone could come up with a substance that tasted and felt the same as meat that cost the same and didn't cause harm to animals then yes I would choose to eat that. Up until that time comes, then sorry but I am top of the food chain so I will eat meat.
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In response to 284
Please learn to spell or type correctly.
Most of the "hysterical(and, incidentally, ignorant) ranting" has come from meat eaters.
Everyone should be allowed to see a balanced view of things, and that is why this small slot was important, because the media is full of killing animals and cooking meat. It's about time that the other side had a say.
Every family SHOULD be "exposed" to what exactly happens to that turkey before it appears on the plate. Only then might the word "Christmas", at present synonymous with the word "turkey", regain its real meaning, instead of signifying the horrible death of millions of living creatures.
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has anyone else noticed that the vegetarians on one side of the argument are saying that the omnivores are hysterical whereas the omnivores are saying the herbivores are hysterical, this to me sounds like a case of "if you are arguing with a fool, make sure the other person isn't doing the same thing"
square12, one again, thank you for bringing some sense into the discussion. i doubt we are necessarily the top of the food chain but that is beside the point really.
migsmustwrite: i totally agree that there is extremely unequal exposure and i seriously question the use of the term crusader by Doakley. It begs the question why do some people let themselves be so involved in what is being broadcast, it is your choice which programme to watch if you don't like it... Change over...
We are all born with a brain, it is up to us to use it to decide what we want to do, be that eat meat or not, or choose what affects u or not. I think a little objectiveness and common sense is required.
Vegetarianism may or may not be healthier but on the moral side of it if the animal is not killed for food then they won't be cared for and their health wouldn't be ensured, some would be left to become sickly and ill. I personally would not want to see that. There would not be as many bred, great for how they are kept but there are many farms who breed cattle and the suchlike in excellent conditions and they would lose out. Surely it makes more sense to say that the moral thing to do is to find farms which you can see how well the animals are kept and buy from them, helping increase their profits meaning they can breed more thus making sure that humanity is continued?
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For a start there would NOT be an over population of turkeys if no-one ate them at christmas because they are breeding turkeys for meat! We shouldnt have to kill our food to eat it!
I have been veggie for over 2 years and doing my best to be vegan.
Animals wouldnt have feelings if humans were suppose to kill them and eat them.
Animals were not put on this earth for the selfish human race to treat them so bad!
So this christmas and beyond, me and my family will NOT be touching any meat!
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Will people please drop the subject about overpopulation of livestock eg turkeys! If people are not eating them they will not be bred therefore no overpopulation! QED
I think everyone can agree on that!
I think what some people were trying to say that if overnight everyone turned veggie or vegan then there would be a generation of livestock that nobody knew what to do with!
Solution would be simple they would be culled!
However as the chances of the entire population make my chances, as a slightly overweight non athlete, of breaking the 100m sprint record look like a safe bet I don't think we need to worry!
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might just be my computer but im sure that post (289) has been said before.
Who can prove that any of us were "put" on this earth? and besides, the other point is who can prove that if we were "put" here what our reason or any other organism's purpose is?
i still think that christmas is being sidelined here, i can't see how christmas dinner will be any different whether it is meat or not so long as people get together and have a good time making sure that those they care about know they care about them. Its a discussion that seems to have little difference to the black/white debate that used to be. We are all the same on the inside, whether we are black, white, eat meat or not.... what does it matter? what you eat, watch, like, don't like, who you talk to, or not are all choices, so long as you can live with your decision then who has the right to say anything about it?
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awesomemichelle10 wrote:
For a start there would NOT be an over population of turkeys if no-one ate them at christmas because they are breeding turkeys for meat! We shouldnt have to kill our food to eat it!
I have been veggie for over 2 years and doing my best to be vegan.
Animals wouldnt have feelings if humans were suppose to kill them and eat them.
Animals were not put on this earth for the selfish human race to treat them so bad!
So this christmas and beyond, me and my family will NOT be touching any meat!
to me your not making much sense.
"we shouldn't have to kill our food to eat it"
yes i sooo wish we needn't. i wish food came from thin air but that's not possible.
not everyone is "programmed" for a veggie diet. i for example, am susceptible to iron deficiency therefore i need good supply of iron, something that veggies don't have as much as meat.
your human, are YOU selfish? just because i eat meat does not, and should not instantly qualify me as being selfish.
you eat veggies, certain bugs eat veggies, aren't you (shock horror) depriving them of food?aren't you being selfish?
your becoming a vegan, your going to eat seeds , aren't you (shock horror) going to deprive birds of their food?Aren't you being selfish?
no! you simply need to eat!!!!
your family are not going to eat meat? then good for you!
but just don't tell ME what to do. that's all
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I cant believe the comments I have just read. I didnt realise that the majority of the UK public were so simple minded.
Of course animals would not be bred if we were all veggies...thats the point!!! I've been a vegan for 12 years and I would love nothing more than to never have to see another cow, sheep, pig etc etc suffering in factory farms to satisfy the stomachs of the human race. People become vegetarian because they dont want to contribute to the cruelty that is inherant in factory farming and whole-sale slaughter in our nations abbatoirs.
I am not against the killing of animals to eat their meat, but until people's attitudes change towards how their food-animals are treated before they reach their plates, the general public will continue to contribute to nation-wide cruelty. It is no joke that if the general public kept thier pets in the same conditions that many farm animals are kept they would all get done for animal cruelty.
How many meat eaters reading this blog have actually taken 5 minutes to look into what actually happens in factory farms, and where their food comes from??
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errr.....my family are farmers, for quite a few generations.......and i can tell you that farmers generally do CARE about their livestock, they have to. and i'm not just saying this because of my family.
those that mistreat their livestock are obviously not very good farmers, nor, i would even say qualified farmers. something, naturally, has to be done in those cases.
but don't accuse people of not caring. those that should be blamed are the government for not closing these farm-factories.
people buy what they can afford.
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read my previous comments...
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Where does the One Show find such weird, factually challenged guests?
"Boston (MA) - Scientists at MIT have recorded a nearly simultaneous world-wide increase in methane levels. This is the first increase in ten years, and what baffles science is that this data contradicts theories stating man is the primary source of increase for this greenhouse gas. It takes about one full year for gases generated in the highly industrial northern hemisphere to cycle through and reach the southern hemisphere. However, since all worldwide levels rose simultaneously throughout the same year, it is now believed this may be part of a natural cycle in mother nature - and not the direct result of man’s contributions."
So, linking cows and methane with 'saving the planet' by becoming a veggie is nonsense. I won't bother watching the One Show again.
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again paso-girl, nicely put, and nice to go from personal experience too.
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I find it a little hard to believe some of you think everybody will eventually stop eating meat - from peoples comments on here alone it's pretty clear everybody isn't going to stop eating meat, regardless of all the arguments thrown up.
No, we may not rely on meat for sustainence, but we have evolved equipped with the right teeth and digestive system to eat it (suggests its quite useful or that probably wouldn't have come about). Plus - people do enjoy it and red meat in the right quantities is good for you.
Just because something has a percentage sign after it does not mean it is accurate or true for that matter, and there are an awful lot of environmental myths flowing through out this blog.
Nobody here has the right to tell another person whether their diet is right or wrong, its down to personal choice.
If you want more "healthy meats" other than ostrich which is difficult to come by, venison is extremely lean and only needed in small quantities. Rabbit is also quite lean.
As soon as you stop breeding animals for food, the countryside will be a very quiet, dank place. If you want to see little lambys etc. in spring you may need to find another use for the blighters because a vast amount of farmers wont keep livestock without getting a profit from them - simply cant afford it!
Animal welfare is a very important issue and should not be neglected, but we are also very important and so is the happiness of everybody at this time of year.
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i find it funny how people who wont eat meat will eat eggs...the chickens for eggs are normally kept in terrible conditions. i went to a chicken farm when we were looking to buy chickens. this farm was for egg production and most probably classed as free range as the chickens where allowed abit of outside life but we were looking around and there was a chicken caught in the conveyor belt that takes the eggs away... and it looked like it had been there a while
like i said earlier the best and most well kept food comes from local farms, shops and butchers.
im a friends of a guy whos dad owns a slaughterhouse and ive been there several times and they treat their animals very well
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i own chickens, 24 of them, rare breeds (dorkings, 5 of ours are rose comb) they have 2 acres of land to roam in.... thats free range....
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lets be honest whats the point of a cow if you cant eat it or pull on its boobs to get milk out of it. mind u you could use them for energy.
up the carnivores
zipdog
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was there a valid and relevant point in that that i missed? (301)
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In response to 288
I respect your thoughtful non-hysterical post Deep_Think_3 but I feel obliged to defend my use of the word crusader.
The dictionary defines a crusade as "an energetic, organized campaign with a political., social or religious aim."
Please explain to me exactly why I should not view the actions of Kerswell and his colleagues as a crusade? By that definition it most certainly is.
In response to the point that made by migsmustwrite about unequal exposure, I can think of no programme that I have ever seen in which anyone spends a full minute telling vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong and trying to convert them into meat eaters. That is the aspect of this broadcast that I am objecting to. You cannot compare it with for example a cooking programme featuring meat because the cooking programme is not intended to make a political point. You are not comparing like for like unless you are so dogmatic that you really believe cooking with meat is a political statement.
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first off i need to express most fervently that i am refusing to put in a political view, things just get messy when that happens.
I commented on the use of the term crusader merely because it seemed almost too excessive. It may fit perfectly but i just felt it was a little too strong maybe, again personal choice of words, the beauty of freedom of speech.
i did not see the article as a part of a crusade because i probably just fail to see how Mr Kerswell is trying to force the world to change, at least not in the short article shown. Maybe i just missed it but i don't think i heard him say "meat eaters are wrong, everyone should become vegetarian because "we" say so." again maybe something along those lines WAS said but i can only go on what i saw.
I did not see that one minute of vegetarian discussion on the show as political either. More just as an option. I have seen (albeit at silyl o'clock in the morning) a vegetarian cookery program, I didn't find this as anything other than normal, i like to think of myself as universally tolerant, in this it means i try and accept everyone for who they are and that includes their foibles and quirks. I try and remain firm in my faith in what i believe in whilst remaining open minded which means i therefore listen to these things without feeling pushed to change in any way. I think thats why some find such broadcasts offensive and others don't. Thank you for giving me a chance to explain that and to try again to explain to you why i did not see the broadcast as part of a crusade
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I'm shocked to find that the British population has plummetted so much mshoundlover if 300 odd posting represent the majority of the British population!
Yes there does seem to be a degree of simplemindedness but it is only a small degree. The majority of the poplation probably don't even care.
Also anywhere else I've lived outside the UK vegetarian are considered odd not that I agree with this.
For example on holiday at a gite (farmhouse in France as a child me and my younger brother were looking at the nice fluffy bunnies in the rabbit hutch. We were about 6 & 9 years old and the owner took one out of the hutch and beckoned for me and my brother to follow. Suffice it to say that evening my parents were later having to explain that the rabbits in the hutch were not pets! I did not panic it did not put me off my food it just helped me understand where my food comes from.
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isn't it such a westernised idea to be debating whether we should eat meat or not?
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I really feel sorry for the animals, If we became a nation of vegetarians, we would not breed animals for food, there would be less animals around, and nature would go back to its original balance, farmers would devote all their time to producing veg,
Vi Northumberland.
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if your talking of original balance then the cavemen lived almost exclusively off meat...
and to be honest you can sit here all day defining and redefining words... but its not necessary is it?
a words meaning isnt what the dictionary says... its how someone says it and its context... thats what decides the meaning...
i dont carry a dictionary everiwhere i go so i can define the meaning of every small section of conversation...
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Nature will take centuries to recover, eating meat is not stopping that, the industrialization has done that. Dictionary definitions make talking easier, it removes doubt about the content of what is being said. We are not redefining words we are trying to clarify meaning of the actual point in hand: Would christmas be that same without meat? which we have taken to should we eat meat or not.
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Mine will, thank you very much Deep_Think_3, because my Christmas doesn't actually revolve around one bit of carcass on my dinner plate, (which incidentally there won't be). The killing of any creature is MURDER and eating the result is utterly offensive. Please feel free to choke on it.
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If you want to encourage people to try being vegetarian, saying you hope they'll choke on meat (there personal choice same as yours to not eat it) is not the way to go about it.
"The killing of any creature is MURDER and eating the result is utterly offensive. " - This is an extremely sweeping statement.
All predatory animals most be absolutely disgusting to you if you think killing any creature is murder.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion but calling them mindless or hoping they will asphyxiate etc. because their own personal decision differs from yours is just daft.
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I wish i could find a way to take that non offensively but i can't. I have not said anything that i feel could upset anyone, that is not my intent, as defined before murder is of People, not animals. My Christmas does not revolve around a carcass, i celebrate entirely differently but that is sort of irrelevant to our current debate. I feel free to do what i choose, choking on a carcass however is not one i think i shall be trying. Please can we stick to the policy of if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all. Your last comment is less than polite or even civil it is downright rude, if your opinion is that all meat eaters should choke then please keep that part of your opinion to yourself, i don't think my son is quite old enough to understand his mummy going away just yet.
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Thank you Jess i found that post shocking and couldn't quite phrase what i meant. nicely put...
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Birtannia wrote:
Mine will, thank you very much Deep_Think_3, because my Christmas doesn't actually revolve around one bit of carcass on my dinner plate, (which incidentally there won't be). The killing of any creature is MURDER and eating the result is utterly offensive. Please feel free to choke on it.
Hang on....isn't inciting someone to choke on their food somewhat murderous in itself?
so with lions for example, will you go to the savannah and tell THEM to choke on their food? after all their meat eaters.
and don't tell me that we're different because we're not, we are animals just like them, and no amount of technology etc...is going to take that away.
oh, and did you know that if it weren't for meat we wouldn't have evolved to human beings. yes my dear . why do you think the discovery of fire was so important, eh? because they could cook and kill the bacteria in raw meat.
if our ancestors were vegetarian then we would still be on trees, and that's a fact.
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I thought the piece was good - humorous and well argued. What a shame that Christine had to belittle the piece by being so negative and dismissive of the veggie food on offer. What can be more important than animal welfare, Christine? And why give Michael Parkinson any opportunity to comment - he is advertising for M&S this season! It would have been nice to have some vegan or veggie celebrities on instead. Is it too much to expect the BBC to actually offer a proper programme or series about vegan / veggie cookery for people who may want to cut down their consumption of animal products for health or welfare reasons rather than a one minute film whgich is then derided by the presenters and guests? Bah, humbug ONE Show and the BBC! Please try harder to cater properly for those of us who care about animals. We veg*ns pay a licence fee too you know.
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TV issue:
What I think a lot of people disagreed with is the way it was put across. I wholeheartedly agree there should be more vegetarian cooking on TV, however the one show is a topical show not a cookery show. Furthermore the way that he categorically stated it is healthier and that x amount of animals would be still alive as I previously stated we can all agree is nonsense!
Britania I must congratulate you for turning what was a reasonably polite debate into a slinging match and presenting me with an opportunity to retort in kind which I have chosen not to! That is what life is about a progression of choices, my parents and their parents before them chose to eat meat as did I!
Incidentally I will not have one bit of carcass on my plate I will have several bits of several carcasses on my plate and I will enjoy them happy in the knowledge that several poor defencless animals lives did not go to waste as they provide me with joy and sustenance. With regards to the choking can I at least wait until I am tucking into a nice t-bone that has been cooked at the most rare because then I would die with an even bigger smile on my face!
Sorry for the sarcastic tone everyone else, but as I said before MURDER IS THE HEINOUS ACT OF KILLING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING!!!!!!! Please do not detract from such an offensive act by deigning to dream of associating it with the preparation of food that you have chosen to anthropomorph!
Get a dictionary, and a conscience!
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Square12 once again you have successfully phrased a brilliant post. And i have to agree with you once more that murder is the wrong word to be using. Surely slaughter is emotive enough without being person based? I personally would find it difficult to choke on an animal carcass at christmas because as i have pointed out before i eat salmon at christmas not a roast.
My other point is that last night whilst being up and watching sign zone on BBC1 (brilliant BBC) I saw an old countryfile. On this program it showed the presenter stood in a turkey farm... Quite blatantly the turkeys were relatively free range and seemed happy enough. They also showed some other farms with animals being bred for meat and again none seemed to be unhappy.
I know that there are some farms out there who do not treat their animals well but after so many animal rights movements farms have had to become better towards their animals.
Maybe its just me but i think that some of these clips of inhumane treatment of animals are out of date and maybe more research and investigations into farms would be good now to show how much has improved since so many people seem to have missed the changes.
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Most artificially bred farmed animals lead miserable lives until they are slaughtered.
Choosing to avoid things taken from farmed animals spares the animals that miserable existance as well as the degrading death - and means that the breeding animals are spared endless pregnancies, too.
Good plant-based food is exciting, varied and nutritious - and can provide good food-based employment ... leaving no need for animal farming at all!
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What really annoys me is when vegetarians lecture you like you're a three-year-old, which we're not. I don't see why people should have a go at us because we eat meat!
These animals would still be dead if we were vegetarians - dead, and going off on a shelf in Tesco.
And the so-called health benefits? What benefits? One of my veggie friends is always ill, her skin is pale and her arms are slightly purple. But everyone I know that eats meat is in perfect health.
Vegetarians are less likely to be obese because the don't eat processed meats, not because they're vegetarian.
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Thank you Deep Think your point about the turkey farm has reminded me of another point. I think we can all agree that the life of an animal bred for human use, be it consumption, clothing or companionship is not ideal. With regards to companionship a long life is not necessarily the best life. A rabbit for example is an animal that in the wild live in vast underground networks as part of huge families, any bird is used to having the skies as their playground, dogs are pack animals designed to hunt and kill live prey especially hunting and herding breeds such as collies, wolf hounds, beagles, corgis, and terriers. The only pet that I can think off that has a domestic life akin to its natural life.
Most people whos livelihood revolves around livestock will care for and look after their animals. This is because a healthy animal tastes better lives longer and breeds more often! To the extent that a large number of pig farmers now give the pigs toys such as footballs to play with!
Also I'm surprised nobody has pulled me up on the use of the word livestock.
In light of recent events I think we need to look at problems with the treatment of members of our own species abused children, homeless people, abused wives etc.
As I said before xmas is what you make of it a time of peace and goodwill and hopefully nobody choking on wishbones or brussel sprouts!
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Oops got distracted and missed off the only domestic animal that has a life akin to the one it would have if wild is the cat!
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Just a quick note to paso girl. If you only eat meat for Iron, you can obtain a good supply of heme iron from tofu, which is more than sufficient for your needs. Alternatively, all you need is a tiny bit of heme iron (meat derived iron) to allow you to absorb and utilize sufficient non heme iron from vegetables.
For my two pennyworth on the subject about Christmas Turkey, I am nearly a vegetarian and eat a mostly vegetarian diet but this Christmas, as at last chritmas I will probably have some turkey with my extended family who eat meat like most of the population. I personally am a mostly vegetarian because of health. I choose not to eat meat because I want to reduce the likehood of heart disease, cancer and other ailments. Before any individuals take umbrage at those words, it is a known fact that excess meat consumption can lead to cancer and heart disease.
Do I care about Animals? I suppose so, but I certainly would not be stupid enough to think that by not eating meat I am saving animals so that they can be set free. It is a shame that someone as obviously dumb as Julian Kerswell was selected as a spokesperson for the vegetarian. As for "plenty of alternatives" I am afraid not. I personally cannot see the point in eating bland pretend chicken breast or even blander pretend steak. Worse still, most vegetarian burgers and alternatives are packed with sodium, chemicals and often cheese. Being a vegetarian for health reasons, I might as well eat meat if cheese is my alternative and I really do not like many of the unhealthy vegetarian burgers.
James-somerset.
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what a nasty blog this is, not all us vegans push our views onto other people but we have to endure advert after advert of pictures of dead rotting flesh, probably having been pumped full of hormones 1st, um yummy i think not! i would rather turkeys were extinct than have them live the life they do, what a load of tosh about farmers going out of business, what about arable farming, and some farmers i know have diversified into horse liveries etc and are much better off, with regard to the comments that we have teeth that are designed for meat, where are our claws then? a human has to rely on a slaughterhouse, unlike tigers etc!! with regard to fake meat, we don't buy it because we miss meat, it acutally tastes quite spicy, i wouldn't eat it if it tasted like meat! all you people making nasty comments about veggies i just wonder if you have to be so mean because you KNOW it's wrong and we've hit a nerve!
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There sure is some strange thinking (if that's the appropriate word) on here. The clip showed Mr Kerswell filling his shopping basket with loads of fruit and veg - the point he was making was that you can replace meat with alternatives if you wish. I doubt anyone would advocate a diet of just processed foods, but at least vegetarian (certainly vegan) processed foods aren't packed with saturated animal fats.
Also, I can't see what the problem is with the figure of 11,000 animals bing eaten by the average Brit in a lifetime. Around 860 million chickens are killed every year in the UK. When you take into account fish you can seehow the death toll rises and rises.
Also, it's laughable to suggest that animal welfare is much better today. For instance, there are so few free-range pigs that numbers aren't even recorded. Most are kept in what essentially are pig slums - and 70 per cent of sows are kept in crates when they give birth (for up to 5 weeks) so small that they can't even turn around. Most chickens, turkeys and ducks are kept on factory farms where they live above thir own filth and are killed a fraction of their lifetimes.
It amazes me that a light-hearted look at an important subject can cause such misplaced outrage. Guilty consciences perhaps?
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gripperj wrote:
"Just a quick note to paso girl. If you only eat meat for Iron, you can obtain a good supply of heme iron from tofu, which is more than sufficient for your needs. Alternatively, all you need is a tiny bit of heme iron (meat derived iron) to allow you to absorb and utilize sufficient non heme iron from vegetables."
thank you for that information gripperj but i have already tried tofu because i was recommended too by my doctor and.... i didn't like it, (sorry). i don't know why, maybe the texture, the "alien" taste. who knows maybe my tastebuds will change in the future.
before i hated tomatoes and now i don't mind, so who knows......
oh and.........................
veganpie wrote:
"what a nasty blog this is, not all us vegans push our views onto other people but we have to endure advert after advert of pictures of dead rotting flesh."
What adverts have you seen? the M and S kind of adverts? that "rotting flesh" is merely cooked.have you even seen dead rotting flesh?
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My mum owns a dog... there are 3 cat in the house too but you can't own a cat... lol
the comment on endless pregnancies... Anyone who drinks cows milk contributes to that...
Square12 has brought up a good point... shouldn't we look closer to home at christmas to try and sort out the problems there first?
Technically i have a mainly vegetarian lifestyle as ieat very little meat, that is not because of moral reasons, that is because i simply don't eat it. Is it also inhumane to eat fish? They are farmed...
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Gulty consciences? Not really as I said before as a reasonably young child I learnt where meat came from, and I see myself as one of the most effectively adapted predators on Earth! Why would we need claws we have opposable thumbs and tool use. Secondly not all predators use their claws for the actual kill eg cheetahs, predatory fish.
The only outrage that has come from the more reasoned thinker on the yes I will be eating meat side of the argument has been at the use of the word murder!
Ok lets do the maths again shall we?
I think it would be fair to say that the average brit has 2 meals a day including meat allowing that the amount of people who have meat at breakfast is balanced by the amount of people who have salad or nothing for lunch.
there are 365.25 days a year allowing for leap years.
2 x 365.25 = 730.5 meals that include meat a year. On average I'd say one animal would feed 10 people taking into account cattle, swine, poultry, sheep etc. So on average we're looking at 73 animals a year which is still an overestimation but we'll roll with it.
11,000 / 73 = 150 year lifespan of the average meat eater well thats fantastic by eating meat I'm going to live to be 150 years!
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it appears that some people here have no idea about the principles of farming. Sows are very very heavy... if they could move about too much then they would end up sitting on their piglets... killing them... in very good farms there is a thing called a "creep" where the piglets can go so the mother does not flatten them. 5 weeks is a little excessive but until the piglets are big enough to be able to get out of the way of the sow the not letting her move is essential. Also, the only pig farms i have seen have lots of space for their pigs.
Dead rotting flesh is not what we eat... thats what happens when animals are killed and not eaten...
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i got lost on the math but im not sure its accurate either way... can someone please re explain very very simply, maths is not my strong point
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Assuming one animal will account for 10 meals which include meat I think I'm erring on the side of generosity towards the vegetarian argument. Honestly I think it would be at least double that.
Assuming the average omnivorous human eats 2 meals containing meals a day.
10 meals per animal divided by 2 meals a day.
This means that one animal would last on average 5 days!
11,000 animals multiplied by 5 days = 55,000 days worth of meals
55,000 days is approximately 150 years.
If you believe that One animal covers on average 20 meals then a meat eaters lifespan goes up to 300 years
Is that any easier to understand? Sorry numbers come easy to me!
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yes, thank you, i only half got it before, i get it now.
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ok, so basically he was whittering numbers to make it seem more detailed... how many of his other details were inaccurate then?
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i personally don't think i'll even get quarter of the way to that total of 11000, i eat meat maybe twice a week, i rarely eat meat as it is but i do defend the right to eat meat and i would just as strongly defend the right not to.
Also, i just noticed... How is this a nasty blog??? i thought the discussion was going well and nicely, giving respect to both sides of the debate
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the part about how many meals per animal...although it makes perfect logic it just not that simple in the real world... each animal has a different amount of usable meat on it and therefore a different amount of wastage per animal...
also depends how much meat you eat at a meal... i eat alot of meat...deep think may not...you see what i mean?
though ill be first to admit that this would not account for the vast difference in figures
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Deep think you're comment got reading that post again and as well as the frankly absurd comment about claws there is the lovely image of adverts showing rotting flesh! Hmm and there I was think that rotting meant being in advanced stages of decay! If you've ever seen rotting meat you'd know that it looks very different from the stuff that is sold in UK butchers let alone supermarkets. It usually has at least one form of insect life breaking it down! An image that I can't really imagine any advertisers using unless as an ad for a cleaning product saying this is what will happen if you don't use their products.
Well there have been one or two psots bordering on nasty but in general yes it has been going well!
Also I think you'll find that the faux meats are designed to provide a fair facsimile to people who want to stop eating meat for moral or health reasons! As I said as far as I'm concerned they bear no similarity in taste however they are often shaped the same as various meat products.
Funny you should mention the spiciness becuse if you do like spicy food perhaps you would like the one meal which does if made correctly use rotting meat which is curry!
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I also eat a lot of meat Steggas but how many ham sandwiches would you get from one pig even an average chicken will usually provide meat for four or five as part of a meal a cow will have enough for even more and then you have offal to take into account! But yes I don't know the actual figures but I think they are a fair estimate!
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lol, if i remember my GCSE biology rotting is a term reserved for something being broken down by another organism (just to add to your point square12)
I decided to go on google and look up the farm legislation. On the DEFRA site i found this:
The Five Freedoms are:
1 freedom from hunger and thirst
- by ready access to fresh water and
a diet to maintain full health and vigour;
2 freedom from discomfort
- by providing an appropriate environment
including shelter and a comfortable
resting area;
3 freedom from pain, injury or disease
- by prevention or rapid diagnosis
and treatment;
4 freedom to express normal behaviour
- by providing sufficient space,
proper facilities and company of the
animals’ own kind;
5 freedom from fear and distress
- by ensuring conditions and treatment
which avoid mental suffering.
In taking account of these freedoms, those people
who care for livestock should demonstrate:
• caring and responsible planning and
management;
• skilled, knowledgeable and conscientious
stockmanship;
• appropriate environmental design (for example,
of the husbandry system);
• considerate handling and transport of animals;
and
• humane slaughter.
there is more but these were the simplest to copy over. the link to the website is:http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/farmed/on-farm.htm#we should anyone wish to read further the laws that farmers MUST follow.
the DEFRA site also states:
The welfare of all farmed animals is protected by the Animal Welfare Act 2006 which makes it an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to any animal. The Act also contains a duty of care to animals – anyone responsible for an animal must take reasonable steps to make sure the animal’s welfare needs are met.
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and hence why i do not like curry... thick cut steak for me all the way...
rotting meat is definately not good for your health...off meat is survivable if you like your curries...
to be honest whatever the reason for whatever you eat is your choice...i dont think its fair for people to push their own preferences onto u (unless your at their house)
but still... christmas is a tradition along with the christmas roast... which in my family brings us together... which is why i think xmas for us wouldnt be the same without our roast
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in response to 337
yes...but to farmers DEFRA is just a pain inda arse... if ya left farmers on their own most would treat animals like tht... the farmers are human afta all
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Its this word "MOST" that i have a problem with. What about the rest who don't, they should not have ANYTHING to do with animals
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precisely...
to be honest DEFRA wont stop people who shouldnt be working with animals from working with animals...
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I agree with you on that account. There are animal cruelty laws in place I don't know the exact details but I believe they apply to livestock as well as pets!
Steggas the curry point was directed at the early post someone made about rotting meat in adverts and I think deep think is right with the clarification on the term so thanks.
With regards the DEFRA guidelines how many of them do a homeless person have?
Maybe one or two!
Livestock has a better life than a lot of humans even those in this country!
Further having worked in Tunisia I have seen hobbled baby camels whose sole existence was to have photos taken with them, again these mistreated animals are in the minority but UK livestock are better treated than a lot of animals elsewhere in the world!
Don't get me wrong I would love for all animals worldwide to live long comfortable pleasurable lives but until homelessnes and worldwide poverty are sorted out not to mention the current economic climate I have other things that might prey on my mind!
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haha yes...but the animals life isnt cut short... it lives to be slaughtered and put on the plate... thats its purpose in life...films like Babe dont help the human understanding of this at all...
as long as theyre looked after before the shift painless end then in my eyes thats fine.
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While I remember, where do you draw the line?
For me Humans are humans and anything else is a lesser species. As I said before I do think lesser species should be treated with respect, unless they are threatening my well being.
For example I wash my hands to kill bacteria and germs, Iwill spray flyspray etc
Remember that you have to kill a plant before you eat it!
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I propose another sequel to babe to help peoples understanding
Film 1 Babe
Film 2 Babe pig in the city
Film 3 Babe pig in a sausage!
Sorry couldn't resist!
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shouldd we give animals names and presents at christmas? i we want to treat them like they have human rights shouldn't we treat them as humans?
As we keep returning to there are people out there who are living in conditions far worse than the animals in the uk. Why does that seem to be lost on everyone else?
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haha square12 does witty as well as intelligent haha
and a human can be blamed their fate... and an animals fate is blamed on any human...
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square12, what will you be having as your christmas dinner? The traditional turkey or something else?
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This year it'll be Turkey with all the trimmings except sprouts. Last 4 xmas's have been in Tunisia andorra and Romania away from family so it'll be nice to have a traditional British xmas dinner again! Last year it was a bbq at the bottom of a ski slope.
As I said before xmas is what you make of it and the people you have around you too!
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your previous christmasses sound fun. I guess you don't like sprouts then and good on you for the turkey, hopefully it won't be too dry for you
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Factor in fish and shellfish (yes, those *are* animals) and then you can see how the average Brit munches their way through 11,000 or so animals.
Bottom line is that you can be healthy and happy without eating animals. So, why celebrate Christmas with a corpse ont he table?
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Because it tastes good!
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Oh and yes if you factor in shellfish thenyeah the 11,000 makes more sense I forgot about the amount of prawns I eat per prawn cocktail.
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Square12, excluding prawn cocktails do the numbers then work?
Corpse is a little morbid isn't it? Surely the term "meat" would suffice. Why eat it at christmas because it tastes nice and it might seem odd but it is a privilege to be able to do so and is part of the celebration. Years ago people were not able to eat meat because of its shortage, this means that it is our privilege to be able to eat it now.
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oh, i thought id add, i had a really nice piece of sirloin steak for my tea, ate it medium rare, lightly peppered. I appreciate the life that was given to give me such pleasure, whoever the cow was gave me a really nice addition to my jacket potato and salad. And i think to stick to a balanced diet i will be having something like fish tomorrow or maybe just salad. Either way i know that where i bought that piece of steak from was from a farm which respects their animals and treats them humanely, so i feel no guilt at eating it.
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oh and i forgot to put that i can't see that that piece of meat was either rotting or a carcass...
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To Paso - girl:
For a start, if vegans buy seeds etc... from markets and so on...the suppliers would produce MORE seeds so its not like one is taking whats just there!
And the selfish part, people who know exactly what goes on through the culling etc...of the animal and still goes on buying the meat, that is swaying to the selfish side.
There are also several other sources of iron. such as......Green leafy veggies, beans, lentils, tofu, pumpkin seeds, milliet, figs, dried apricots and dates.
Meat, fish and dairy are NOT the only sources of certain vitamins. We are herbivores just like are ape ancestors, they do NOT eat meat, and look how big and strong they are.
Dogs and bears, they are carnivores and omnivores, do we have the same teeth as them?
Take a look at your teeth and a dog's, and tell me, can you see a resemblance?
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Awesome Michelle
Your post gave me food for thought.
What is the vegetarian position on the keeping of dogs and cats as pets?
Should it be banned on the grounds that we have to feed them meat because they are carnivores and cannot digest vegetables? Surely lots of animals have to die to feed our pets?
On the teeth thing, I imagine that we would be closer to bears than dogs because bears are omnivores like us but I will check it out as it is a genuinely interesting point. However I do feel obliged to point out to you that human teeth are closer in design to those of a dog than those of a cow.
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And our teeth are closest in design to those of our closest relatives...
...
...
chimps and Gorillas
both of which will supplement their diet with meat if possible, more so chimps which will actually hunt small monkeys in an organised troop oh and baboons can often be seen scavenging carrion. For a particularly good example of chimps on a hunt watch David Attenborough's life in the trees!
Of course our teeth are not like those of a dog they are carnivores we are omnivores hence why our teeth are more similar to bears and pigs, as opposed to ruminants or rodents.
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Deep think if you factor in shellfish and fish then yes the 11,000 does make sense because the majority of fish will not feed more than one or two people and most shell fish will need more than one to make up part of a meal.
Doakley you raise a very valid point although I think most cat would be able to find food for themselves.
Oh and to all fellow omnivores out there if you ever get the chance to try bear meat don't bother it just tastes like a blander tougher beef steak. The bear was killed because it could not be relocated and kept coming into the town. Which brings me onto an interesting point: countries like Australia that have a wild edible animal that reaches pest proportions and have to be culled (kangaroos) or man eaters (crocs) should they be allowed to be eaten?
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i wish veggie people would not preach they choose not to eat meat thats up to them but leave us meat eaters alone if we did not eat the meat then there would be no need four sheep pigs cows ect then what would happen to them????
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"And the selfish part, people who know exactly what goes on through the culling etc...of the animal and still goes on buying the meat, that is swaying to the selfish side."
- I think myself and a lot of other people find it very reassuring to know the animal was reared in a kind environment and died a quick humane death with the least possible stress involved. Thats why we continue to buy it, rear it etc.
You probably can't see this because you consider the killing of any animal intentionally, murder. This drags up all kinds of issues in my mind, animal euthanasia for one.
I went to a top rated argicultural college in the south of england, studying animal management. Not one of my lecturers there were vegetarian and considering they chose a life dedicated to animals and education, that says quite a lot.
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thank you square12 numbers really are just lost on me. Again trying to remember my biology here A level this time. I think that one of the distinctions in classifying all living organisms into their Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. is using the teeth to distinguish some of the final family and genus. To my recollection we as humans are Homosapiens erectus, Homosapiens are bipedal primates in the family Hominidae. The Hominidae classification uses teeth to distinguish its "occupants" Other than humans there are apes chimpanzees and other primates in the hominidae grouping. These also have the sets of canines and teeth similar to humans. Again only to my recollection but i think it has been recorded on many occasions that given the chance of success at killing another animal a primate will do so to supplement its diet with meat because of its use to the maintenance of their physical form.
Also i found my papers from the GP for when i was pregnant. On them they say that my ferrous iron is low and that to regain this iron the best foods to eat are beef, lamb and other meats, they also say that lesser to these and therefore would need to be eaten in greater quantities to maintain the same levels are things like broccoli etc.
The general recommendation is that because less meat is needed to maintain these levels it is better to eat it. By this theory i would assume that whilst it takes (arbitrary numbers) say 16lbs of grain to produce 1lb of flesh, it would also take 16lbs of grain to not sufficiently feed the human that that 1lb of meat would satisfy... not phrased well but im sure someone can decipher that
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agian watching tv at silly o clock... Whatever the program is about the hairy bikers bake britain or whatever just had on ANOTHER turkey farm... Again no inhumanity there...
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I am sure that there is inhumanity around somewhere Deep Think. If you really want to see some then try the Viva website. I think that it is OK for them to show animals being mistreated but what is sad is that uninformed people will believe that this is normal and will never bother to find out that there are more caring and humane ways to farm. Viva certainly won't encourage greater understanding of farming practices as that will simply expose them as political activists with no respect for any truth that does not fit with their view of the World.
No response from the "meat is murder" mob on the cat and dog keeping issue. I wonder if any of the Viva people have carnivorous pets or are they only allowed animals with no canine teeth.
I think that you and Square12 covered the teeth thing pretty well although I did find out that brown bears have flatter molars than polar bears because they have a more omnivorous diet.
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there will most certainly be inhumanity somewhere and cruelty otherwise the legislation would not be needed but it appears that groups like viva and veggie activists would have us believe that the inhumanity is everywhere, i just thought it such an excellent example that in two nights on the run i found on the bbc two different programs showing different farms none of which showed any cruelty thus proving that someone somewhere gets it right....
i agree with the use of the word uninformed and think that to elaborate on that in actual fact it is people who haven't been told anything and can't be bothered doing a little digging so find their opinion out of misinformation and then because they aren't certain on it refuse to budge and can't have an open mind in case they are wrong.
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I was a veggie for 10 months. During these 10 months, I felt very tired, prone to colds (and lasted longer too), consentration levels dipped (affected my school work) and looked very ill. This was despite of me taking extra vits and minerals.
Within a few days of eating meat - I was back to my usual self, prior to become veggie.
Becoming veggie doesn't suit everyone. Plus I know of at least two people who had similar problems to what I went through.
The one thing that really annoys me with veggies are the ones that always lectures me why I shouldn't eat meat and will not tolerate if I eat meat near them.
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Unfortunately the majority of animals don't live in lovely homely River cottage style bliss.
Pigs spend all of their lives on a concrete floor in a farrowing crate. Without being able to reach and nurture their babies.
Diary cows being kept in feedlots and artificially inseminated and pregnant and lactating at the same time, then having their babies taken away at 48 hours. Then the calfs are put in veal crates and given gruel, no mothers warmth for them.
Egg laying hens kept in cages so small they can't move their entire lives and have to be de beaked without aneasthetic, otherwise they peck each other to death in sheer frustration and agony.
Meat chickens kept in sheds so cramped they can't all get to the feed and water so they die of starvation and dehydration. The sheds are so filthy the chickens end up with ammonia burns on their hocks and breasts.
I could go on and on about every animal humans eat in Western society as the animal is only seen as a commodity not a sentient being with pain receptors and a fear of death.
I live in the rural South and I think there are some very good, local farmers here and there are some appalling farmers.
If you really feel you cannot do without meat, then make things better for the animals and don't buy meat at the supermarket for the least money possible. Support your local farmer, find out what kind of life the animal has led and also very important, what kind of death.
Personally, I am vegan and don't eat mock meat, have leather, silk or down, I am still alive and very healthy with it.
To the person who mentioned getting vitamin D from beef umm no, you get it from sunlight on the skin and you only need to supplement it if you are in a high risk group eg dark skinned people who live in temperate zones and don't go out much.
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i feel the need after such a post as that to reiterate that whilst of course there are some farmers who treat their hens inhumanely they are in the minority and the conditions you describe are abhorred by other farmers and any other person involved in the care of animals. having been to many turkey farms and further more chicken farms and cattle farms i can quite categorically say that from my experience these animals may not have the most freedoms but they are given a relatively good life. They rarely live in such squalid conditions as mentioned above and i entirely disapprove of barn hens but they do not have their beaks removed, Dairy cows are given roaming time because they can't produce milk permanently throughout the day as it would be detrimental to the milk let alone the cows. sows are not stopped from nurturing their piglets as again this would be against the best interests for the meat let alone the animal. Veal is hard to come by and as such i think it safe to realise and assume that such practices of taking the calf away and keeping it in a veal crate is a rarity. Meat hens are not kept in conditions so that they cannot move this would be defeating the object... The hens need to move to produce good muscle fibres, without good muscle fibres, no good meat... I hope this clears up a few things from the point of view of someone who has visited these places and seen for themselves not just looked at the videos and clips that others put up for me.
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I get really annoyed by these namby, pamby people bleating on and on about vegetarianism, and how offended they are by meat, and cannot understand these awful people who eat it!
If there were no vegetables etc. for them to eat, because crops had failed or were sabotaged by GM crops, then they would probably change their minds when they got hungry enough - only by then livestock farming would probably be extinct by decree, as authoritarianism takes it's inevitable hold on every aspect of our lives.
These stupid people need to wake up and get a good dose of reality, and eat everything in moderation so they get a good balanced diet, like nutritionists tell us to.
Why do the BBC have to publicise every fad that ignorant people think up?
I have no problems with fur either as long as the whole animal is used for something useful.
I abhore fur producers who mistreat and abuse the animals to get the fur, so as long as the origin and efficacy of the process can be traced as humane, it is OK with me.
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I wish that there were more shops selling meat with the red tractor logo on - I hardly ever see it in any of our supermarkets.
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just wanted to say: i hope everyone had a great day yesterday whatever they ate.
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I think I must live in another UK. I live in a rural area and have lived in Lincolnshire also and I am afraid that I have seen these appaling practices for myself. It does happen and as the most meat sold in Britain is cheap supermarket meat, these practices are common place.
As I said before, don't buy your meat from a supermarket, go to a reputable butcher or farm shop. Spend a little more on quality and just don't have the quantity. This matters all the year round not just Christmas.
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