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The One Show's Anita Rani has been out and about in multi-faith Birmingham. She was asking about the very British reluctance to talk about matters of religion.
"It's not fair to say that people in Britain do not feel comfortable about talking about religion." Dr Robert Beckford said to Anita.
"You've got to be precise, minority communities are very comfortable with their faith and at ease with articulating what they believe, because religion is still very important in those communities."
"However, the crisis for me is among white middle class communities who feel it's still impolite to talk about religion.
"I think in contemporary Britain, religion has been exoticised. If, for example, a Brazillian footballer scores a goal and crosses himself, than that is ok, because he's Brazillian - he's from somewhere far off where church and religion still matters.
As long as we can 'other' religion and see it as something separate from us then it's ok."
Do you feel it is impolite to talk about God? Why are many of us Brits reluctant to talk about faith? Share your views.
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Proud to be an Atheist - no embarrassment here!
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I sincerely hope we are embarrassed! It's primitive superstition and Barack Obama is leading the way in tolerance towards those like me who are fed up with "faith" being pushed at us all the time.
Barack mentioned "Non-believers" as being part of the constituency he represents ... I regard this as advancement and not a negative. The questions which should be asked are:
"Why do so many want to believe in something for which there is NO PROOF!?"
"Why do we brainwash so many children by allowing faith schools"?
"Why do we encourage divisiveness in our society by increasing faith-based identity and division"?
One does not need religion to have morals and scruples.
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I myself am agnostic, but when people do chose to express how they feel about religion many knock them for it. Although I believe in science and logic there are times I wonder. I am Christian by religion but would never turn away a Morman or Jahovah's Witness. To me it all comes down to an old saying 'stick and stones' if someone is doing you no harm, just leave them be.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4409168/Nurse-suspended-for-offering-to-pray-for-patients-recovery.html
Here a nurse was suspended from work after offering to pray for the patient, what is wrong with the world when people cannot be comfortable with their own beliefs.
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Why are we ashamed to talk about God?
No....I think Carol Thatcher is wonderful!
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Proud to be pagan and happy to talk about Gods or Goddesses but also very happy for others to believe differently. What is needed in this country is tolerance then people would not be so reluctant to talk about their beliefs.
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I am a member of the church of England & proud of it.
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I am definitely NOT embarrassed to talk about God - I am a born again Christian, committed member of a local church and will happily chat to anyone about what I believe and why. I have been a Christian (a follower of Christ) for the last 23 years and my husband and I endeavour to bring our children up, in a Christian home, hoping they will love God, be non-judgmental and respect all people groups as adults. We also want our children to know there is no reason to be embarrassed about what they believe in either.
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There is no God so no need for embarrassment.
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Why do people feel the need to believe in God ?
Are they in some way lacking in their own self confidence.
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Proud, glad and delighted to be an atheist. No shame at all. And glad to say that evolution has proved me right. If life has evolved there was no creation. So without creation what is God? He is irrelevant. The sooner people stop being brainwashed by religion the better.
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Hi Rani,
I'm a Catholic priest & a school chaplain. I'm VERY happy to talk about my faith! I spent several hours on Firday night with a young Missionary talking faith (and drinking) to about 40/50 people in a pub. We all had a whale of a time; priest; missionary; people of all faiths & none! We left as friends & on Sunday they said it was one of the best nights they'd had in the pub for a very long time!
If people won't come to our churches, then like Jesus, we should go to their "churches", be that pubs, clubs or anywheere else. As an ex-publican (the youngest in London in 1977) I'm very comfortable talking faith in a pub, club or supermarket. We may not "convert" anybody on the night, but we can begin to change the image of the Church and that faith can be enjoyed! After all, Jesus & his disciples spent 3 years eating & drinking their way through the Holy Land.
I'd be more than happy to respond to the package! I have a little radio/press experience.
Fr Ray
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I am a "white, middle-class Chrisitian" and I disagree that we are ashamed about our faith - my faith is the thing I am proud about in my life and I would happily share it with people. God is the most important thing in my life and I hope I always stay that way. :)
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Brilliantly put, Bhoddhisattva.
I was frankly offended by The One Show tonight with its blatant pro-religious standpoint by the main presenters.
Dr Winston's comment infering that science is not about the truth ought to have his doctorate removed. That is all science is about!
The sooner we as a species can abandon something that stifles thought and fails to discourage hatred, the sooner the world will be a better place.
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The flying spaghetti monster will explain religion to all
www.venganza.org/
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whilst i respect everyone's rights to express their own opinion, I think Anita's story was incredibly one sided and unrepresentative. There are thousands of evangelical Christians in the UK who are very happy to talk about what their faith means to them, they're of all races and nationalities too. As a white, middle class evangelical Christian I have not been so offended by a programme in a very long time. Why not show the masses of buses and adverts for the Alpha course as well as the atheist campaign expecially as the Alpha campaign must surely have been the prompt for the other??
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Bhoddhisattva: theres no proof that there isnt a God either. the reason we dont talk about religion is because things like that women who is has been suspended for asking if the lady wanted prayer,it wouldnt be allowed in the usa. why would you want to put ur head above the sand if you could lose your job?
i am a christain and proud of it
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Is it any wonder we hesitate to talk about our Christianity when we succumb to political correctness. A worker gets sacked because she wore a crucfix! Celebrating Christmas could be seen as being discriminatory against other religions! God help us!
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I am a Christian and far from being embarassed I am more than happy to talk about my religion.
However, it seems to be that Christians are being put upon these days. Just look at the British Airways employee who was sacked for proudly displaying her cross. Other religions have various trinkets that are on display, yet it is the Christian who is singled out on this.
If we are going to be singled out for displaying a cross then talking about it will onlybe considered worse.
It is political correctness that is killing of Christianity these days!!!
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I am not ashamed of the Gospel.... I truly believe and love God - I believe he is totally loving and tolerant of all people and therefore so should we be! We shouldn't beat people over the head with our own beliefs but neither should we hide who we are.
I also think the bus advert is a great talking point - thank you whoever came up with it.
Godbless! x
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i am a christian and when you have seen healings and miracles take place you can no longer deny that god is real and wants to be part of everyones life
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What a disgraceful piece of trash television this report was. Completely unbalanced.
You felt it necessary to get the views of a priest in Birmingham but not one atheist view to counter this overtly religious piece. Adrian Chiles should keep his views on the Atheist Bus campaign to himself!
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I do not think that Christians, as a rule, are embarrassed to talk about God. I am a Christian, and every Christian i have met would be happy to talk about God to anyone. People who attend churches, attend them because they love and worship God. Who doesn't want to talk about someone they love?
As a majority, Christians love to shout out about God.
It's not just the Muslims and Jews who are proud of their religion.
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Why, when Anita Rani spoke about how people who are not scared to talk about 'God', did she say Hindus, Muslims, Chrsitians and Jewish 'People' - not 'Jews'? What's with the sensitivity? (by the way, I'm atheist).
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If God is necessary to my life then exactly what changes if I decide to believe? It means that I have to say that everything good is down to God and everything bad is down to Man. This is nonsensical: if God exists and is ominipotent then God is responsible for everything - and however mysterious its ways why isn't God blamed for the tsunami and earthquakes and hurricanes and typhoons - without even looking at the question of allowing Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin.
Of course, the PC BBC will not allow this post to appear,
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Adrian Chiles comment about the Atheist Bus was a nation broadcast admission of his ignorance.
The notion that "There's probably no God, stop worrying, enjoy your life" has nothing to do with promoting amorality.
ADRIAN, are you reading this??
It's because believers in God constantly preach about the amorality of non-believers. But, as there is no God, stop worrying and enjoy that one (and only) life you get.
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Religion and people trying to force relgion onto others has caused more suffering and wars then anything else.
Why bother with it ?
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I don't think it is about embarrassment, the attitudes of most churches and of some christians I have met are reactionary and judgemental. Many people who have a faith believe that lesbians or gays shouldn't be allowed to have a relationship, get married or have children. As a lesbian I have been told that I am a sinner simply because I love someone they don't approve of. If that is faith I'll give it a miss.
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Adrian Childs just suggested that atheists, and the promotion of atheism, suggest that person is amoral. This is one of the main things that annoys me about religion and religious people. They assume that people who choose not to believe are somehow less upstanding, less moral, less *good*, than those who choose to follow a religion. Its disgusting. I dont need religion to tell me how to be a good person. And considering that religion has caused more wars than any other single factor, the hypocrisy is amazing.
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I think the major factor the one show should have picked up on is that people are more embarrassed to say they don't believe. I am an atheist, and sometimes feel that to say you are agnostic is a cop out. if we have had no proof of a god for millions of years, do we honestly believe it will crop up now! there are surely many rational, intelligent people on this earth, who can appreciate that hundreds of years ago religion was often all people had, and that they lived in fear. In today's society I see no need for religion, we can no longer have the wool pulled over our eyes, and i find it patronizing if people presume you believe in a god. That said, i don't think it is necessary for me to shout it from roof tops that i don't believe, as i think there is so much more important stuff in life to concern ourselves with. The fact that wars are claimed to be fought in the name of religion, and that we blame religion for so much is also an easy option. That is surely a way of shielding the fact that horrible things like war will always be part of human nature, just like the ability to love and do the right thing. And i feel that i can do the latter without the need for a god to guide me. I don't think religion bashing is something that people do maliciously, i just find it incredibly frustrating that people cant think for themselves. surely scientifically if a person was born, and never exposed to anything or anyone, they wouldn't suddenly think, oh there's a chap with a beard floating around who's gonna look out for me. this is something that is instilled in us through nurture. Unlike Dawkins, i feel if people want to believe then that is their choice of coarse, yet i will always struggle to understand why they can believe in something so lacking in proof or evidence.
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We are ashamed to talk about God because we have become a country of sinners. I am a cristian and i say that God is all, dont forget that God gave us this world. He gave it to us not to enjoy but to reproduce that is our purpose here. So i think we are afraid to talk about God because it makes us feel primative and base. "Deo Optimo Maximo. "
Ave Atque Vale.
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I am a quiet Christian, as every time I mention this fact I believe I seem to be asked to justify it. To answer peoples' comments on why they don't believe and therefore I should have all of the answers. I enjoy my beliefs and don't exactly feel embarassed about the fact that I believe, but I am embarassed by the fact that others need me to justify myself.
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I don't see why people should be shouting from the hilltops about their beliefs. If everyone kept it to themselves everybody would be much happier.
I'd also like to add that I find it offensive that you don't have an atheist on your show expressing their opinion, and I also find it offensive that you'd suggest that we are "amoral". I don't need to believe in a god to determine right from wrong.
Remember that most wars are/were caused by religion.
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I find religion a touchy subject because I'm Pagan, which means I get flooded with questions about ridiculous myths like "do you worship the devil?" and I can spend a good 15 minutes explaining that I don't worship the devil, I don't curse people and I don't get naked every full moon, amongst others.
The other problem I've encountered is people automatically assuming I'm "Wiccan" which is a new-age branch that is predominantly focused on witchcraft.
I'm eclectic in my beliefs, but do not choose to tell everyone everything I believe in, especially when many people may not understand. I think this is the case for people of many faiths and religions because not everyone believes in the same things in their spiritual life and are afraid of being ridiculed.
From a psychological perspective, it is easy to see that this is a classic example of conformity - people are afraid of being different for fear of rejection or looking stupid.
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No, not ashamed to talk about God.
The question of whether there is a transcendent personal being and the possibility of an afterlife seems to me to be a question of incredible importance so it's definitely worth talking about.
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If I believed in God, I'd be embarrased. Proud to be an athieist - no embarassment here.
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The link enclosed below will (if you have not yet started) introduce you to the ART of philosophy and Plato's Republic, and therefore someway towards YOUR belief in God.
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/republic/summary.html
It is a very hard subject matter to understand and this man (whose teacher was Socrates), came up with these thoughts in BC years.
If our lives followed more closely to those that he laid out, our society would be a much safer and pleasant one.
The book starts when you look at the question that Socrates stated: what is justice?, and continues from there.
It is an abbreviated version of Plato's Republic, bit conveys his ideas very well.
I hope you will take time to read it, or at least put it into your Favourites folder for future reference.
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If you're going to do a piece on Christianity it's very unfair to brand most Christians as people who don't want to talk about their faith. I've been a christian all my life and know many others, as well as myself, who are more than willing to speak of their beliefs and views.
It is also frustrating that church numbers are always stated as being in decline. Whilst being true for certain denominations, this is simply true for a number of others which are growing.
I think the embarrassment may well be in the asking not the telling.
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I am a Catholic and proud of it. I go to church every Sunday and don't mind talking about religion. Maybe I am unusual because I really don't mind talking to others even if their not catholic. I have a friend who's a Witness and in my family, we have, (wait for it), an Atheist (my younger brother), 2 catholic (My older brother and me), a church of england (mother), and family legends say my grandmother was a cauldron stirring black witch who cursed the marriage (it ended in a very bad divorce). If we go further back we even find a Jew or two. So maybe that's why I am so evenly balanced and am willing to talk to nearly anyone (even my brother though he doesn't talk to me).
Maybe people don't truly understand that God is Love and Heaven is made of God's love for his people - It is truly beautiful. If more people understood that I believe the world would be a better place.
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There isn't a god. Just as soon as we regard anyone who believes that there is as simple and in need of care the better.
I also take offence at the notion put forward by Adrian that without a god I don't have a moral code. And speaking of which the greatest number of immoral behaviours throughout history have been done in the name of one god or another or between groups of one belief against another.
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I'm happy to talk about religion; I suspect that many who did not want to talk about it on the show were simply not interested in talking about religion, or anything else, with a complete stranger in public. Embarrassment probably wasn't a factor. I thought the whole article was poorly thought out, inherently biased & trying to be sensationalist. Typically shoddy tabloid journalism.
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Read todays newspapers! Of course we Christians daren't mention our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Not if you work for any large organisation like the NHS, where active Christians are actively descriminated against.
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The bus ad is NOT amoral because it tells us to not worry and go out and enjoy ourselves. We DO NOT get morals from god or the bible. At some point a HUMAN decided that killing your first born or ethnically cleansing the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites "as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (King James Bible) was a BAD thing. For Jeebus sake don't look to religious texts or imaginary friends for your morals.
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God? What is it?
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Most people do not talk about God simply for the reason that they don't believe in him. The same way I don't talk about floating magical beans, I don't talk about God: because neither of them exist. However, if I do encounter some of the deluded, I am happy to debate why I don't believe in a magical being that is continually being made irrelevant by science.
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i think it partly like they said on show, people are worried in our politicaly correct world of talking with other about "god"!
i personally don't have a problem, im not sure, i think he probabley doesn't exist and if he/she does they are supposed to be omnipowerful, or omnipresent or/and all loving.
I did take a full gcse in religion and ethics! we learnt about the bible.
I belive that if "god" does exist and is the above at the bible says he/she is, their the most horrible thing, how can he let children die and suffer of cancer, and starve, while pedophiles and rapist, murderers live long heathy lives.
And if hes not the above, then he is not god, if hes not the above he can't have crated the world/universe.
Its chance! and we should not worship him!
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Echoing the first commenter - Proud to be an Atheist - no embarrassment here!
I will talk about religion as much as you want.
One show please invite Mr Dawkins on to your show, then perhaps we can hear his point of view rather than having someone else tell us what he believes. Also suggesting a scientific link to spirituality is downright wrong.
To the commenter raising there children in a Christian home who want there children not to be embarrassed about what they believe, how about you allow them to choose what they believe.
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Adrian should discuss his side-splittingly hilarious views on Atheism by inviting Professor Dawkins to discuss it in person. He may also be able to counter some of the ridiculous claims that Robert Winston has just proclaimed, such as 'religion being part of our genetic code.'
Absolutely ridiculous. Fortunately, the rising voices in the Atheist crowd are obviously getting heard - Secular England can't be much further away, surely?
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The most biased pro god piece of reporting on the BBC, no balance of views at all.
Science will fly you to the moon, faith will fly you into a building!
I'm not ashamed to talk about my lack of belief in god.
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Did not like the way that god, religion, spirituality and morality seem to be regarded as the same thing E.g. reference to the bus ads as implying we can do as we please if there is no god.
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Whats wrong with wanting to believe that there is a creator God who loves you, no matter what you do? That you are forgiven for sin and have a place in heaven when you die? I am a Christian and very proud of it - you should have come and talked to me, I wouldnt have been embarrassed. And Christians enjoy life believe me in fact there is a survey out there that states that married Christians have the best and happiest sex lives!
I think there is also quite a lot of misunderstanding about the bible - the old testament is in effect a history book of the jewish race whereas the new testament is a book for all, about the life of Jesus and the establishment of the early church. Its great stuff - you should try it some time!
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The suggestion that if you are not beleive in God means you do as you like and don't care I find deeply insulting. I don't believe in god or any god but still believe in one of the major beliefs that you should treat people as you would like to be treated yourself. If people want their religion that's find by me but don't tell me I am immoral because I don't.
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I think people are too embarrassed because they are emabarrassed not to have thought it through, examined any evidence for God or taken the time to consider the for and against. Gone are the days when we went to Sunday school and learnt about God. Schools nowadays are faced with children who know so little about Christianity - we are so 'politically' correct not to give them too much about the Christian faith whilst making sure they know about other faiths.
Also inh school nowadays the curriculum is so packed there is little time to consider and discuss the bigger questions about life. Many of todays parents have been brought up in a generation who live for now and without God knowledge so what chance for their kids to gain any understanding in order to question.
you can guess perhaps I am a teacher and wish there was time just to discuss God and what he means to people, whatever faith......
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I think its great everyone has there own religions but personaly i dont follow one.
Cotholics and Christians condridict them selfs on so many things!
they are not judge mental and are forgiveing but they dont accept tranies for who they are and think its wrong.
Where all "children of god" and come from adam and eve well that would make us inbreds and mean we perform insest which in its self is a sin!
Both religons are closesly related to the Pagon religion anyway.The guy who set up the Catholic church based it on Pagon gods and Godesses!
So i dont think its wrong not to talk about god at the end of the day its a personal choice.
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Why do people think he exists?
What about the original faiths, ie: Pagan, Wiccan?
I don't believe he exists at all
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The current thought amongst many people in this country is that science and God are polar and therefore you cannot believe in both God and science. Yet, there are many Christians in science who manage to do just that.
Take for example Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, until his recent retirement. Few, if any, people understand genetics better than he does. He is also a committed Christian. He makes many points to counter the arguments of Dawkins in his book, The Language of God. He was once an athiest but with more understanding of science RATIONALLY concluded that God must exist.
Its worth a read....
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The debate about why we don't discuss god and then show the president of the united states saying god bless america is misleading.
The American constitution states that you cannot become president of the USA unless you believe in God so we will nevcer know whether the president actually believes or not.
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I am a Christian and extremely proud of my faith! I feel as Christians we are always the under dog. Any other faith is allowed to say what they like and can change things if it offends their faith. We as Christians do not have that luxury, but it only makes us stronger!
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It is not sdo much embarasment....why do we never see Christine wearing a cross round her neck......because you can lose your job if you do...
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Re. the London bus signs 'There is probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy life'
I feel Adrian Chiles' comment that this sign is encouraging society to lead an amoralistic life, is very offensive. It came across like he suggesting that one must have a belief in god in order to have morals?
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Having been previously accosted by religious fanatics who wish to preach to me, I would be very reluctant to stop in the street. Never-the- less I would happily discuss and defend my religious views in proper circumstances.
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I think a big problem is we confuse God and religion. Many people who are not religious have a firm belief in God. There is, unfortunately, often a world of difference between a spiritual person and a religious person.
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As a person you have free will to make your own decisions. God has given us that free will so saying he is at fault for the actions of people such as Hitler is ridiculous.
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In the programme it was said that white middle class people are reluctant to talk about God. I am a Christian and have been since I was 18 (I am now 40). I am white and middle class.
I am not ashamed about my faith and I talk openly about God, about miracles and offer to pray for colleagues and friends.
I have friends who are Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs.
I am open about my faith at work and with people that I meet.
I also encourage the children in the sunday school that I lead to talk about their faith.
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Embarrassed is not the word! Religion is one subject that evokes such strong feelings - especially from believers, whatever their faith. In a multicultural society it is easy to cause offence, therefore it is diplomatic to avoid the subject!
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Society makes us embarrassed to display all things Christian
Schools are not allowed to celebrate christian religious festivals anymore for fear of upsetting all the other faiths
When i was at school in the 1970's we sang hymns in every school assembly and said grace before eating our school dinner these things are unheard of now in mainstream schools.
Local councils think twice about putting up Christmas decorations and cribs etc again for fear of offending other peoples sensibilities
Thats why we are embarrassed to talk about god.
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Robert Winston: my hero! What a breath of fresh air!
Richard Dawkins is indeed arrogant in thinking that he has alll the answers: he seesm to have no time for those who do not agree with him.
What he fails to acknowledge is that science can answer the question 'How' but not the question 'Why'. Science can never prove or disprove the existence of a God.
It's obvious, as Robert Winston said, that spirituality is deeply part of the human condition. Since humans first walked the planet they have left evidence that their innate curiosity and intelligence led them to think of something greater than themselves.
Jenny Birchett, Buxton
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I don't think all Christians are ashamed to talk about their faith. Me and my christian friends go out every Wednesday telling people about our faith. Out in the street in the cold!
Though i have to admit when I'm talking to a non religious friend its hard to talk about it they have no idea or true understanding of real faith. They see it as something you learn in RE class. And true faith is not like that!
True faith is an experience that Christians have had with God. A relationship. Its very spiritual and not religious!I repeat We are not religious. And we have all the proof we need in our lives. You can see it in the way God has changed people. Who used to be very bad, selfish, rude but are now kind people! How can you say there's no God just because you haven't experienced him?
We KNOW our God ok.Good.
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No god in my life and am totally happy and content with that.A dreadfully one-sided piece of television from the One Show.Why were no atheists interviewed? I also think Richard Dawkins would be amused to hear that he apparently gets his liberal views from the Anglican church!!
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I found myself becoming more and more irritated to hear Anita suggest we are embarrased to talk about god and faith. One line of thought was pushed in this story. Perhaps the people were walking away, not because they were embarrassed to talk about god, but because they would have embarrassed her by saying what they really think. People are not turning up to church because we no longer need a medieval method of controlling the population, and that we are developed and educated enough to know there is no such thing. I am as scared of Michael Myers, Gremlins and Freddie Kruger as I am of God. All are make believe.
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Most reasonable people realize that there is no god. Belief in a superior being filled the gaps when we began inquiring about our world and had no answers. As we learn more god retreats into the holes in our knowledge. We no longer have a need for it, and the concept causes more harm than good.
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I am a science teacher and a committed christian, as far as I see there is no conflict between science and faith. I am not ashamed or embarassed to speak about God or Jesus, why should I be ashamed of someone who loves me, helps me and has given hope to anyone who asks.
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Completely misses the point! Most are not ashamed to speak of God - they simply don't believe he/she/it exists! Moreover, the way of life that a number of religions advocate are simply not attractive/ acceptable/ practical for many.
The book 'The God Delusion' is so-called as a reaction to the fact that many of us atheists find ourselves having to treat religious people with kid-gloves through fear of causing offence.
So really, it's atheists/agnostics who have been the 'ashamed' ones for many years.
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In response to Megallen's post: not all christians discriminate people because of their sexual orientation...i'm not sure whether it makes me less of a christian to think this, but i do not see homosexuals as doing anything wrong. God told us to love. if you love someone of the same sex, what difference does it make? not a big one, in my eyes.
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After watching the show I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of those who claim to be "Christians" in the UK know nothing about the bible or God - Hence the reason that they might be embarrassed to say they are Christians.
If asked about their faith, they would have no answers because they are 'Christian' in name only...
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I am a committed Christian (a Catholic), in my twenties, and am not embarassed about my faith, although I used to be in my late teens and early twenties.
Too many people think that believing in God makes you "uncool" or "sad". Nothing has ever brought me more happiness to life than living in God's infinite love!
The culture we live in is fast and generally uncommital. Having firm faith in God requires commitment, so unfortunataly many people push it aside...
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Religion is embarrassing, God is embarrassing, just look at the balance of the good caused by religion and belief and the harm done by religion and belief.
There is no logical or reasonable reason to believe in a God, there is No proof that stands up to a critical examination. Surely reason and reality is a more credible reason to base a life upon, rather than myth and superstition.
I am an atheist, that means that i see no credible proof of god, therefore i live my life under the assumption that there is no god. But unlike any theist I AM willing to shift my stance given proof. Where as most theists cannot entertain the fact that they could be wrong, that is bigoted, and that leads to talibanisim.
Get god out of school, out of politics, out of court, out of health care, and off our streets.
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Society makes us embarrassed to display all things Christian
Schools are not allowed to celebrate christian religious festivals anymore for fear of upsetting all the other faiths
When i was at school in the 1970's we sang hymns in every school assembly and said grace before eating our school dinner these things are unheard of now in mainstream schools.
Local councils think twice about putting up Christmas decorations and cribs etc again for fear of offending other peoples sensibilities
Thats why we are embarrassed to talk about god. Julia from Luton
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm too embarrassed to say or perhaps its the just that I don't appreciate the dismissive responses.
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After his comments this evening, the BBC REALLY need to find another presenter for this show. what ignorance. Shocking. Absolutely disgraceful.
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Theology a blessing or a curse?
I am convinced that creation was no accident, of that I am very sure
The details of the design are too complex shall I say pure.
Just study the genetic design of man, woman or animal, even a whale
It is so wonderfully done and intricate, it makes the alternatives pale.
Then there is the religion and tales of the creator who is named GOD
Now according to some you see He is or appears to be so very odd.
It went well with his design you may agree, He even included redundancy
Thus ensuring that nature could renew itself, genetically.
However when Homo Sapiens was endowed with self awareness
Add freedom of will , It was inevitable it seems there would be difficulties.
Then , it seems the creator made them aware of Him, and demanded worship
This entailed living by His rules and giving Him honour , and having fellowship.
It started with Moses and the commandments being written down it seems
Then, the words of the prophets and those in authority wrote blooming reams
It was beyond doubt intended as a spiritual guide, for every aspect of life
But once given into the keeping of man, --- became a constant source of strife.
Read learn and know the glorious word, is now the constant evangelical cry
I confess, Knowledge of the word certainly does indeed , helps one to get by
However the Devil creeps into the denominations and the varied interpretations
I wonder, If it really serves our God , or sadly, man’s dreadful ambitions?
Christianity to me, is not a commodity to be marketed, or used as a revelation
To gather adherents to a particular groups own self serving interpretation
It is best caught , ---as an infection from one living so very close to Him
THEN1 one finds certainty and peace with freedom from pious sin
So you see, I have reached a point where I can quote from Romans.
Chapter seven verse 15 puts it so clearly for us all to see. We rely on god’s son
Truly as Moffett puts it , we would do right, but wrong is all we can manage
Without that fellowship with HIM, even knowledge makes us savage.
Zeal is all very well my friend, but I have noted it has at least one fault
Zeal is too often intolerant of a different view from that that we were taught.
In a particular community country or time. It loses LOVE the rock bottom basic
If Christ love can be allowed to thrive. Then surely life indeed might be fantastic.
Jesus was rejected by his church for not accepting the current interpretation
Please dear God, we do not repeat that error and earn again your condemnation.
YES! We should know the word that is true,----But be STILL and listen
To that inner voice, that helps us to know what is right and what is wrong
Fellowship with the Lord above get to know him and then, really to him belong
Study the history of the church the bloodshed and the so self righteous song
To stand alone might be your call ..just do not lead a new sect or error
Be true to HIM and trust HIM. Now that is better. than sowing terror.
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For centuries, we Atheists have been persecuted by Christians, and the opening of the report by Anita Rani gave the impression that a Secular society was a bad thing. I fail to see how that can be so. Surely a more rational, enlightened society, free of superstition, is something to be applauded? I certainly don't want a Prime Minister's personal faith (and that's the way it ought to be - personal) to have any bearing on public policy. Look where it got America.
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Is it that we are ashamed of talking about 'god' or is it that the concept of mainstream faith is being questioned by 'believers' and society as a whole? Could it be that society is tired of the relentless bombardment of religion in life. War, War and more war in the name of 'god', twisted morality in the exclusion of individuals in society and its effect on political policy. I persoannly belive there is 'something', an 'other'. It has no face or name, involves no ritual, has no formal temple or book and doesn't require me to impose any self imposed moral standing on others. Religion is nothing more than a belief system to fill that void in the human mind that requires a sense of purpouse and comfort from death. This could be through the concept of a god or even atheism. They are both beliefs either way. You do not need to believe in a 'god' to be a good person. there ends the tea time sermon ;-)
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Why cant believers in God just keep quite.
Their spouting off about how wonderful their faith is just annoys all other faiths and so on and so on ....... and so the persecution of others continues.
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I am a christian but do not go to church. I feel that nowadays it is not only due to embarrassment that people do not speak of religion but because in this country, people are not allowed to openly practice christianity due to politcal correctness. Every December you hear of more and more councils and retailers banning the word Christmas and exchanging it for holidays or not putting up christmas decorations so as not to cause offensive to other religions.
The latest where a nurse has been suspended due to offering a pray for an elderly patient is where the prejudice against christianity has gone to far.
If people believe in God then they should be allowed to express that view without shame or embarrassment. Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, to name but a few religions are not ashamed why should christians????
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Considering the topic of debate it seems a glaring omission not to include anyone on the BBC's guest panel to support the atheist point of view. All your guests took full advantage of the fact that their views would not be challenged by coming out with some utter tripe. The worst of was from Robert Beckford who claimed that humans have a genetic predisposition for spirituality - if this is true then what more evidence does he need that man created God?
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Many white middle class British people don't talk about God because either they are embarrased about their lack of knowledge or because the concept of God has no obvious relevance to them. Personally, as an agnostic bordering on an atheist, it seems to me that:
If there is a god, he has mede too many mistakes!
How can one or even one group of religions (such as the Jewish/Christian/Muslims) be the only believers in the "one" god - why are the Hindus, Bhuddists, Confucians, etc. all wrong?
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As a response to "There's probably no God". Have a look at Thereprobablyis.com. There probably is a God, now enjoy yourself discovering him. We are the happy ones!
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Well, I am Nigerian student in the UK, I have a few friends who are Christians by birth but are not practicing. i'm not saying that i am perfect, i just try to be good and acknowledge the fact that God is really there. some of the people here are so engrossed in the activities that are immoral and they know being religious would stop them from partaking in such activities so they just ignore the religious aspects of life in order to continue in their immoral ways.
Some people are born into families who are atheists and they grow up to be atheists. when they discuss religious issues, they bring up some funny science stuff into the argument to prove religion or faith wrong. of course science contradicts faith.
i am studying to be a chemical engineer and i love science but i believe in truth and i know God is really there and He has done lots of things for me to prove He is really there.
Life in the UK is quite easy so people have not had the cause to really experience God's hands in their lives directly.
The facte is God is out there and let all the atheists believe it.
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Although I have attended Church all my life I became a Christian about 29 years ago. My faith is living and relevant to to my life. I have received answers to prayers and also pray for others.
Since I became a Christian I have always been encouraged to talk about my faith which I do, not in a full on offensive way but by earning the right to speak and share my faith, as I get to know people and share what God does for me. People are usually very interested.
The Church I attend has a lively congregation of approx 150. These people are all at different stages in their walk with God from just being curious to People who have been Christians for years. We are not odd but people who have been convicted that the message which Jesus brings is the only way. We definitely enjoy life, have fun and are there to support each others. What can be wrong, barmy or misled about that.
food for thought ...... It has been said that Jesus is either mad, bad or God I know which I think.
God bless you.
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The way I see it if I am wrong about believing in God, Jesus and what he has done for me I have lost nothing, if atheists are wrong they will have lost everything and be condemned to eternity without God and all that entails.
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I have become aware over the past years that what I would understand to be a christian country is now been taken over...mainly by muslims.. They can shout their rights and the powers at be let them ride roughshod over this christian country....
Michael Terry
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I see the atheists got in first on the comments.
I'm not ashamed to talk about God and specifically being a Christian. In fact, on Saturday 200 women got together in south London to look at how we can lead as Christians. We're not Ministers, we're everyday people with jobs, families... or with neither. A lot of us were the white middleclass your reporter said were most likely to be embarrassed.
Every religion (or non-faith world view) has its embarrassing fringes that we wouldn't really want to be associated with.
I suspect people often don't speak out for fear of being labelled a fundamentalist or being told that they MUST therefore believe X e.g. I'm no creationist, and I'm happy to try to explain why I've come to believe as I have, but I've been told in debate in the past that the burden of proof is on me to justify the creationist view which I don't share!
Jesus rose from the dead - for me that's the key. If that's true, it's important to look at what he said about life and beyond.
Otherwise perhaps it's all just rules on behaving nicely to each other and as previous posters said you don't have to belong to a faithgroup to have those?
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For anyone wishing to about Atheists and the bus campaign, don't take Adrian Chiles opinion:
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http://www.humanism.org.uk/
http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/
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Yours, a very moral Atheist.
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I don't like to mention I'm a Christian as I get judged and people get confrontational.
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Tamsin - Pembs
I am a proud Christian, but find that the reason Christianity is not spoken about is not because we are embarrased but simply because whenever we do speak out we are criticised for it, not only is there the air hostess, there is also the nurse who offered to pray over a dying lady - and is subsequently under suspension pending 'investigation' - INTO WHAT ?- we are forgetting this is a Christian country, our leaders & Royal Family are Christian and I think it is a disgrace we cannot speak our minds - it's tantamount to living under a Communist regime.
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One of the reasons people are a bit reluctant to talk about the Christian faith, is that they can face ridicule and insult (and people get away with it!).... but try and do this to someone of the muslim faith and there can be consequences (that's why people don't challenge the muslim faith, but feel they can say whatever they like about Christianity!) It's time for people to speak up, as there ARE many people who are belieiving Christians who want to see our country return to better Christian values (which this country was built upon at one time). And actually many people who are not believing Christians try to get their kids into Christians schools because they consider this type of schooling a better grounding for their kids. I am not ashamed to speak out about my Christian faith.
Richard Dawkins is very offensive to me in what he writes, but gets away with it.... which he wouldn't do if he wrote negatively about certain other religions.
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Just to answer a couple of comments on my post: I will defend your right to believe in whatever religion you like, but please don't push it down my throat!
If it makes you feel more secure, or confident then great - it's better than drugs, alcohol or crime!
And as for proving the non-existence of something: please! I am not the one making claims based on thousands of year old books, in supernatural events and unlikely, implausibilities.
As Carl Sagan said of UFOs: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof! You are claiming the existence of something - you provide the proof!
Until then, can we please focus on the real issues of poverty, over-crowding, drought, famine, war and global warming!
God has no solutions for these - humans do!
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I don't see a conflict between science and religion.
Science accesses knowledge by induction and so it can't disprove the existence of God.
On the other hand, the disciplines of theology, philosophy and ethics allied have very good arguments and evidence supporting the existence of God so I think to assert confidently that "there is no god" requires a blind leap of faith that borders on the irrational. In this respect, agnostics are more in touch with reality than atheists.
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People are embarrassed because they realise, deep down, that god is does not exist. God is irrelevant. I am a radical (as in Douglas Adams) atheist, and proud of it. As for religion not doing harm, well the lay person is usually fine, but the clergy are certainly not harmless. They all, without exception, discriminate against women and gays as required by all their 'holy books'. They are abusing the minds of our children by indoctrinating with a superstition that was invented by a tribe of Bronze-age goatherders in the Middle East who invented god in their own image and likeness. Secularism is the only way for us all to live together in peace, with religion as a private matter.
Teenybabs:- see the National Secular Society website for the real story of that nurse, she isn't the little innocent that some of the papers make out. She was abusing her position to evangelise and her patients weren't comfortable telling her to shut up.
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Once again religion is causing arguments
Just believe OR……Don’t believe, but shut up and keep it to yourself and you will see that the world will suddenly be a better place to live.
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My background is science. Scientists SHOULD ask questions. So whilst everthing from the big bang on can be documented by those with big enough brains, none of them will tackle the big bang itself!!
Why out of nothing did something happen.? You can think about it for ever and sometimes you might even be tempted to throw God into the equation. I think in today's world scientists should try and answer the question of religion seriously.
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Adrian Childs suggestion that promoting atheism is amoral is offensive and I hope he makes a public withdrawal of that remark. It is as offensive to me as an atheist as a blasphame is to a Christian or a Muslim. I and my family have a well developed sense of morality -moreso than religious groups for example in Northern Ireland who practice hate in the name of faith. I was disappointed that Christine Blakely was unable to provide balance by saying how emaprrasing it must be to talk about religion in her part of the UK where it has torn the province apart.
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How can anyone be ashamed of thier belief in God? The average person has to see something to believe it exists.You have only to analise the creation to know that there is a supreme being. you cant see the wind, electricity, ect. but you can certainly see the effects. hence it exists. So when people say they are ashamed to speak or religion is a private thing, it strikes me of being very sad. but the British people are noted for there reserve
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I would take it further and say the issue is not talking about God as that could mean the Hindu gods or the god of Islam and many other religions. After all O My God is the most popular expression around. The problem is using the name of Jesus. Bring His name into a conversation and there is always a reaction.
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yet another piece of BBC bias. Where was the atheist voice on the sofa? Lord winston attacks Richard Dawkins but no one is there to defend him. I assume that Lord Winston believes that 2000 years ago a baby was born to a virgin so i'd be very worried about seeing him for IVF! Anyway, what concerns me is that I'm more than happy for people to believe but the problem is that the religious people will not tolerate me being an atheist. Just ask all the atheists who get death threats - including Richard Dawkins. Not very christian if you ask me. Whilst I'm on the subject, Bush and Blair claim that god told them to invade Iraq. He can't be very clever can he........
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I honestly keep quiet about my beliefs because I know my friends would think I am strange to go 2 church on a sunday.
I am not ashamed but it is difficult to talk about your beliefs without people thinking you are preaching.
I also feel like I have let my church down as I haven't been for a good 6 months because I have other priorities like work and relaxation. Does this make me a bad Christian?
It also doesn't help that there are no church goers my age- all are over the age of 50. And I do feel slightly odd singing aloud.
Hopefully you see the predicament young people are in?
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I simply cannot believe that nobody seems to be aware that the only religion that is 'afraid ' to promote itself, for fear of falling foul of the PC 'thought police' is Christianity.
If I'm not mistaken,current legislation on equal rights and multinationalism is being
seriously misapplied already - cruxifixes, adoption, etc..
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Embarrassed to talk about religion? I'm atheist but I know a lot of religious people, and sometimes it can be quite intimidating!
Also, I think that the way that the "atheist bus" was represented was TOTALLY missing the point. The fact is, that when you go to town you are often talked at by religious groups telling you that you are going to burn in Hell (I quote)- yet you never see anyone advocating lack of faith, which in many ways can be a very positive thing.
Also, it does not mean that we can do what we like and be immoral!!! - In fact if you say that morality only comes with religion, then that makes morality itself rather meaningless, when you ask the question of whether God or good came first. Either God came first, in which morality is not a law or code or whatever without God- it is merely God's will, and thus circular (ie, we follow God because He is good; we do good because it's what God wants). Or good exists without God and therefore God is not the all-powerful creator of everything, and so that's kind of blasphemy.
I also think that the comment about science not being about truth was terrible! I suppose that's the difference between liberalism and relativism :S.
Anyway, when it comes down to it, yes we can know very little ACTUAL truth, but science is truthful in that it does describe the way that the world as we experience it works.
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I was told by my Christian friend recently that I was "going to hell" for not believing in "God" and that she felt sorry for me. She didn't mean it maliciously, it was a statement of "fact" as she saw it.
So if you believe in "God" then you're a good person and you'll spend eternity surrounded by, presumably, flowers and virgins. If you don't believe then you're doomed to all eternity in hell.
Hmmm... yeah, sounds like a really tolerant bloke to me!
Proud to be Atheist.
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I think I'll never be able to prove that God exists to all athesists. Maybe we're not meant to be have all the answers, I think that we don't need them. I think what we need is faith. Faith enough to look past the doubts and see the bigger picture. I have been a Christian for 14 years and I have no doubt that He doesn't exist.
And I've prayed for every single person who has written on this board.
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Oh and I totally agree with that Nigviv person!
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If we spoke more openly about religion, we'd be able to understand and relate to each other.
Talking about religion doesnt have to mean conforming to it, which is something that people often misunderstand.
Abusing people for having different ideas to you is unacceptable on both ends (religious/atheist) and I think people should learn to curb their ignorance, and be able to listen to people with different ideas without exploding into a fit of rage.
I'm not religious myself, but at the same time I have a great interest in the ethics and theology behind religion.
and how about that bus advert?
It's completely ridiculous. We dont have bus adverts that say "I love jesus, go to church" there would be uproar!
so why is "There's probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your life" any different?
Just like different cultures, we need to respect each other's (or atleast tolerate) beliefs when it comes to spirituality.
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In my family I have everything from devout Christians to Atheists - none of us are embarressed by our varying faiths but I do find it is easier to avoid the subject.
Spending Christmas dinner trying to reason with someone as to why homosexuality is normal and acceptable, and them disagreeing because the 'bible says it's unnatural' has taught me never to bring up the subject again.
Each to their own. I won't push my beliefs on you and please don't push yours on mine.
But if we are to make decisions for our society they should be made on logic and fact, with human rights in mind. Not on the teachings of some book.
A secular society for Britain is needed!
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maybe its not that people are embarassed, more to do with not wanting to offend others of different faith, or not wanting to be preaching to those who dont beleive.
religion is a touchy subject when the people in ur conversation arent of the same faith n they beleive in different things than your self,
religion brings up to many questions.
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I am a White Born again Christian and I am Not ashsamed of the Gospel I am not Ashamed of the one I love (Jesus/God)
god has been so good to me he has given me so much and I pubicly thank God for his provision in my Life.
My Brother is the Pastor/Vicar of a Evangelical Church in Birmingham which has 3 services on a Sunday with a 150 to 200 people per service so how can we be hiding our feelings for God if nearly 600 Brummies go to my Brothers Church in Selly Oak every Sunday????? I lve in Tamworth and attend an evangelical Church which has 150 every Sunday!!!
There is only 1 way to a happy life and that is GOD'S way!!!!!
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starfleetofficer: Such thinking leads to the "It's OK to blow people up as the afterlife will be so much better" school of thinking!
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Not all Christians don't want to talk about their faith.
Every subject is covered in the Bible even the ant gives us inspiration
(Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant thou sluggard, and consider her ways, and be wise)
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I can understand that many people do not want to talk about God - why should they when they don't know who God is. They do not need Religion what they need is find a Relationship with The God of Love - Jesus Christ.
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Sigh.
Just had the displeasure of watching the one show segment on belief in God. I've never heard such inanity. "Richard Dawkins better watch out when he dies" Yes thank you Mr. Sportswriter for your intelligent commentary. "Science is just a version of reality" Yes Prof. Winston would you like to put that to the test by attempting to fly? In which version of reality do you ACTUALLY place your trust on a daily basis?
Still it's heartening that some people are starting to be embarrassed about faith (the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved)
Anyone who believes in miracles, virgin births, the power of prayer, creationism, homeopathy etc. might want to be a little more honest with themselves. I have more respect for the embarrassed believers- at least they are struggling with their received "wisdom" Embarrassment may be the first step to enlightenment. And lest you start getting upset , just imagine me burning in a lake of fire for all eternity while you are smugly in heaven with Adrian Chiles and you'll feel better. :)
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Believing in God, I am a believer and enjoy the christian festivities of Christmas and Easter, how many of us celebrate these events?
If there was no Christ why celebrate these events. Of course there are believers who do not celebrate these events, for there teachings and understanding of christ is different to my Catholic Faith. I respect these people and thier beliefs.
If there is no god do we cancel Christmas?
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"There's probably no God, stop worrying, enjoy your life". This does not mean "lets all be immoral". This is a great sign of ignorance towards atheism. Morality and the existance of god are mutually exclusive. And science is not a "version" of truth. The fundamentals of science is conducting an experiment to see if something works or not, and fine tuning variables, unless you want to mathematically prove something you can't really get more absolute. I am happy to talk about religion, but do not expect me to show them high levels of respect, if you want it, you have to earn it. Lastly, because it requires spirituality to believe in god (though it sometimes is very loosely termed) you do not have to believe in an intelligent being to be spiritual!
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I agree with RJ555: It is rammed down our throats that we should not upset so called 'minority faiths'. This in turn could have the effect of putting everyone on the back foot and afraid to say anything in case the political correctness police grab hold of our collars and take us to court for hurting somebody's feelings. It seems that the only reason that this article was aired so poorly is to get people on the blog moaning about badly thought out BBC programs for which we are paying.
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Who says you cannot prove god, of course you can prove god. if your god is one who intervenes in your life either through providing direction through answered prayer or through healing then the God has intervened in the physical world. if god intervenes in the physical world then he can be observed. But he hasnt been, there have been a good few attempts to get science to prove god, mainly through the Templton foundation. those attempts either prove god was at best a placebo.
By the way it is not the place of science to disprove god, that is a negative statement, those that say there is a god hold the burden of proof. It would be impossible to disprove every past, present, and future proof of god, though you can prove the positive assertion by showing one instance where something happend which could only be god and were no other alternate explantion will fit.
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Certainly in Stafford there are MANY of us who love to talk about God - and then especially about the fact that God's son Jesus died in our place . Through Him we have an amazing relationship with our heavenly Father
I just want people to know that relationship and have the certain hope that this life is far from the end - in fact the beginning of eternity
Things like the credit crunch can then fall into their more constructive place in life and we can focus on real love which develops family relationships and an improved society more as God really planned it to be
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In reply to post 103 Adrian did not say atheism was amoral but that the poster implied that amorality was OK. What a wimpish poster anyway. There is probably no God. No wonder it says in Psalms that God sits in heaven and laughs.
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I would never find my faith an embarrassment. I'm a student and I find my Christian faith the best guidance in today's messed up world.
Take a look at the world; at the people who have betrayed your trust, lied about finance, put millions of jobs at risk and created a scene of depression. The people who you protest against and yet never take steps to making the world a better place. Who will you trust next time? People again??
Maybe it's time to trust, encourage, love, and share hope with each other. And there's only one place that will come from. God.
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Thank you Owenthechemist :) I agree!
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The One show is a big diappointment. How can you interview a priest and then not interview an atheist! On top of that a man of science with a doctorate believes Science is a 'version' of truth, He should have his doctorate taken away from him! Completely unbalanced. Yes Richard Dawkin is completely right that some have been deluded - just watch the One show and this program and you will see it! Go Atheist bus, spread the word around that we are no longer bound by a medieval God that can be trace to the SUN not a human being. That we can think for ourselves who we believe and dont believe and that there is no proof there is a God!!!! That the truth is in science !
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The problem may be with the actual noun?
Not many people are embarassed to talk about 'Life'
or 'Love' ... ?
Is the anthromorphisation of the word God a block to discussing it openly?
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"If there is no god do we cancel Christmas?"
Yes & no, yes we can cancel "christmas" but we can simply refer to it by its orignal name of winter solstice. The only difference is the lack of Jesus.
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I am a Christian. I'm not religious. Christianity is a way of life, a faith - not a set of traditions. Jesus lived and is my example of how to live. By believing and professing that God so loved the world that he gave his only son so that we might have eternal life surely has to be good news and needs to be shared. If someone was in danger would you keep quiet and let that person suffer if you knew that telling them would save them?Why then should you not tell someone about a loving God who wants them to spend eternity withn him in heaven rather than perish in hell. Faith is believing in that which cannot be seen and gives a hope for the future
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66 yellowjennyb.
It's not up to non-believers to prove or disprove a God (or fairies at the bottom of the garden), they never posited a supernatural being in the first place!
The onus is on you, believers and (and Robert Winston) to prove there's such a being. And whenever they try, even all philosophers from St. Augustine onwards have singularly failed to do so. They've always fallen into logical fallacies or, like, Descartes, backed off before their logic drove them to the logical conclusion that there is no supernatural being, no God.
And this is because there are inherent logical problems with positing supernatural beings. For example, if God is so all powerful, could he create a rock so heavy that even he couldn't lift it? If he can't lift it, he's not all powerful. If he can't create that rock, then he's not all powerful.
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Why do people who want to know about Christianity only refer to the established church? Many churches are experiencing explosive growth (e.g: Light and Life Free Methodist Church in W. Cornwall) whereas, with a few exceptions such as HTB, the Anglican Church is in decline. Please, do some decent research. There are very many who will talk freely about God and Jesus. You just need to look in the right places.
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Brian0401, i have to agree, the peice on the show was very badly balanced, there was no atheist opinion at all. it was pretty low to critisise Richard Dawkins without any right of reply.
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The only reason I'm embarassed to talk about my faith is when people shove it down other people's throats.
It's great that some people feel so passionately about what they believe in but I'm fed up with the intolerance and aggression that goes along with some religious fundamentalists - I'm embarassed to say I have a faith in God cos when asked, people often adopt a look of fear, like I'm about to launch into a huge rant when I tell them!!
I think there needs to be much more respect and a willingness to learn about others' beleifs - instead of aggressively trying to push your own...Faith is such a personal thing, with many different dialects -
in my book, it's fundamentalism which causes wars, not religion...ok, I'm ranting now :) !
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I am not embarressed to talk about my beliefs. Too many other religious factions that would take offence! Political correctness and racism gone mad!!!!!
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I would like to ask Bhoddhisatva if he/she has ever read the Bible, (more than just a cursory glance?)
Opinion is one thing, but A committed Christian does not base his faith on opinion, but upon experience, backed-up by the Word of GOD as given to us in the Bible.
in my view, Bhoddhisatva would do well to at least attempt to SEEK the truth with an open mind. I can promise you that many of the most committed Christians were once confirmed Atheists, who after being bothered to actually pick up the Bible, had their lives transformed. I recommend that Bhoddhisatva begins with the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) In my EXPERIENCE , the one thing that supposed non-believers have against placing their trust in Jesus, is that they fear the amount of changes that will occur in their lives as a result. Again, every Christian that I know has had to leave something of themselves behind in order to experience the true peace of GOD through JESUS - and If I sound like a Preacher, I'm not, just a sinner like everyone else who had his life changed
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I am not embarrassed about talking about my God he is my friend meeting Jesus was the best thing that happened to me he gave me new life and peace I will tell anyone about my GOD.
GOD BLESS
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It’s not that Christians are embarrassed, but rather that they made to feel the new minority. In the UK, unlike ANY other country around the world, we are told to be so ‘pc’ and work hard not offend those of other beliefs, that we as Christians are made to feel unimportant and like we are doing something wrong if we appear proud of our belief’s. Pray in schools was taken away, councils change names of our holidays and celebrations and even a poor carer nurse in Somerset was suspended, without pay, from her work for offering to pray for a pensioner. We aren’t allowed to be proud of our faith in order that others can. And with regards to the Barack Obama leading the way to tolerance comment, great, so where is the tolerance and respect in the UK towards Christians?
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It is my personal view that people are not necessarily too embarrassed to toalk about God but put of by falling foul of political correctness. Christqams cards now contain the message seasons greetings - how meaningless is that - very few have any relevance to the birth of Christ; schools no longer put on Nativity plays or hold carol services and morning prayers were abandoned a long time ago. All this so that we do not risk causing offence to believers of other religions!
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In reading all (some) of the other comments, and as a religous ignorant, I presume the thing called god is male as it is always referred to as 'he'. Personally I thing perhaps it may be, as I worship at the altar of the great god of the Atheists, Richard Dawkins.
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I was disappointed by the pro-religious bias in this item. I am an atheist and strongly objected to the implication that only religion provides morality, especially Robert Winston's inability to accept that Richard Dawkins could be liberal and open-minded yet still be an atheist! I hate to drag up the old chestnut about the violence and intolerance in "the good book", but it goes to show that religion = goodness is completely false.
I am also very worried about the increase in faith schools, which teach completely inaccurate science, dismissing Darwinism with absolute fantasy such as the Earth only being 6000 years old, all in order to kick out the founding principles of evolution - gradual change over many millions of years.
As for atheists being in deep trouble if there is a God; I subscribe to Prof Dawkins' answer - surely if He exists, He would recognise such a stance as evidence of free and innovative thought, which is surely a good thing in an "intelligent" being!
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I agree that in the UK we are not confident about talking about God and religion. I was brought up in a non-religious family. However, I have become a Christian as an adult and was Baptised last year. Due to my upbringing I found it weird at first to talk about my faith but I am beginning to realise that it is okay to talk about it. I do of course respect other peoples beliefs and don't impose my views on others. I just have more confidence in answering questions about where I have been and what I've been doing that I can say I've been to church and I don't have to be shy about it. Some of my non-Christian friends find it a bit weird (I don't know why) but it's my choice and going to church is a part of my life I should'nt have to hide.
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bjg369: how can you teach children to question everything when you don't have the courage to face up to the simple question of the irrelevance of God?
If God exists then the fact that it allows "free-will" to murder, rape and destroy the planet shows its lack of relevance to our lives. We are in this mess and we have to sort it out - so why are you genuflectingt to a deity who clearly does not care about you, me or the future of this planet?
Whether God exists or not its irrelevance to our everyday lives is beyond argument.
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its well underststood by reasonable intelligent people that the established religions are repressive institutions who dont pay taxes, fund coups and prey on the vulnerability of human insecurity.how do they get away with it? because god is unaccoutable and when the desperate need a simplistic answer to complex questions,god is always there to stop them from thinking.
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I believe that people are not embarrassed about discussing their faith, but just wish not too in public incase it is percieved to be a racist remark by an ethnic minority. If so much emphasis wasn't placed on political correctness by the Government, then this issue wouldn't have arrisen in the first place.
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I'm not a practicing christian but I do believe in God and not afraid to say it. Everyone in life is entitled to their own their own views and opinions and no one should be embarrassed to tell others what they believe. Those who follow scientists opinions are free to do so but a lot of scientists theory's are supposedly based on facts that took place years before they were born which I find interesting. If people want to be atheists so be it and if people want to believe in god there's no reason to hide it.
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I found Adrian's comments implying a belief in god is necessary for moral behaviour embarrassing. In fact, the whole item was embarrassing. One minute people appear to be quite rational and the next they are discussing a mythological creation as if it did exist and that the real problem is only that we suffer from an embarrassment about talking about our belief in it.
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Christine from Sunderland
I don't think we are so much ashamed to discuss our religion but afraid, how can we be open and proud when employers ban the wearing of crosses etc which are a sign of the Christian Faith for fear of upsetting other faiths.
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Bhoddhisattva: Exactly. It's precisely the folks that think "God" will look after them in the afterlife that are happy (nee eager!) to bring that afterlife forward a little by, let's say, flying a passenger aircraft into the World Trade Center!
You can call them religious extremists and they are, but there's that word: "religious".
I'm sorry but Adam and Eve talking to a snake? The Holy Spirit coming down and raping the virgin Mary? (charming by the way)
The whole thing is preposterous.
And yet it's the non-believers who, apparently "need saving". I find it amusing.
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Bill Raison, yeh i see that Westboro Baptist church are doing well too.
They are radical chrisian church too, so what is the difference between your "growing" church and theirs...one thing interpretation.
And a belief based on interpretaion cannot be sufficient explained or critisised, by either party.
The difference between a religious terrorist, and religious liberal is INTERPRETATION !
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I was unhappy with the structure of your
"why are we ashamed to talk about god" survey and the conclusions that your reporter drew.
First you visited Birmingham, a city that is not reporesentative, in religious terms, of the majority of towns and cities in the UK.
Your reporter was clearly asian or of asian decent and it is well known,in this day and age, that white citizens are extremely sensitive about offending non whites, so responces would reflect this.
There was also a suggestion that Christianity or the believe in God was a middle class thing. This could not be further from the truth.
I am a Roman Catholic and I am fiercly proud of this and I would be willing to engage anyone in a conversation about my beliefs. I am not alone in this, nor am I middle class. On the contrary I was born into a working class family in a working class town where churches were full of working class people.
Your programme was guilty of asking answers not questions and ,as usual in these cases , set out to prove what it believed to be true rather than seeking the truth.
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People's interpretations of their religious "text books" are NOT the whole religion, it is there for ignorant to generalise a whole faith based on some crazy person's ideas.
If someone tells you that you are going to hell for not going to church, or what have you, then they're being disrespectful. But that's all they're doing. They're not speaking for everyone of their faith, they're speaking for themselves.
That's like saying that Islam is a violent and destructive faith because some terroist was a follower of it.
Faith does not speak for itself, we interpret it, and manipulate it until it hardly resembles what anyone else may think. But that's ok. people are entitled to their beliefs, as long as they dont go throwing it in people's faces.
and the same goes for atheists.
Actively screaming "THERE IS NO GOD, RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE MORONS" at the top of your lungs is exactly the same as a bible basher screaming "SUBMIT YOUR LIFE TO GOD, OR GO TO HELL" through a megaphone.
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Oh! and another thing, once more the BBC shows it's lack of partiality again by not having anyone to support the opposite view. What is the beeb scared of, if god exists, then there's nothing we atheists can do to hurt him
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Its not that we are ashamed to talk about God, its the fact that we are constantly told that we could offend someone by showing our religious feelings or thoughts. For example---- the Nativity play at schools are to be called WINTER Plays in case there is a child of another(non christian) religion at the school. Christmas decorations in Red Cross shops are to cease or we MIGHT offend someone.
We ---white middle class---seem to be the only ones scared to say what we believe in, even if GOD forbid someone has a different view. It takes all sorts to make a world and the sooner we learn to live together and accept our differences, the better
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Angry that Adrian should suggest that a world without a god would be immoral ... it's actually preferable to derive our moral principles ourselves than to rely on the so called guidance given by god in Exodus ... check out god's advice on slavery for example.
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It's not so much that Christians are embarrassed but that we are 'careful' since both the Government and local councils go out of their way to put the intersts of other faiths above Christianity. This is in spite of the UK supposedly being a 'Christian Community' We have councils and businesses who try to stop emplyees wearing Christian jewellery, councils who ban Father Christmas in case it 'offends' other faiths etc. Chistians will willingly discuss their faith with anyone....there is no need to be pushy about it.
I am a Christian and very comfortable with that.
Photomadtc
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For the host to suggest that non believers are amoral is both insulting and incorrect.
Religion has more blood on its hands than any other single thing and continues to shed blood despite the three main religions believing in the same ficticious god!!?
Its madness!
There is NO proof of god.
Everyone on the earth is atheist..... yes its true.... ask them if they believe in zeus, thor, amon ra, apollo etc etc ad nauseum.... the answer will be NO but they still believe in the latest reincarnation of the superstitious creator. This god will also be superceded as all before.
I am an atheist, naturalist, humanist etc. I live a decent honest life and look after my fellow man. I do not need supersticious nonsense to keep me good. indeed the foulest deeds are done in the name of god so count me out. Atheists are the MOST tolerent people on this sweet beautiful magestic earth. And before anyone bangs on about hitler and stalin i suggest they look at history. hitler was a catholic and learned his hatred of jews from them! Shocked? check it out...ask questions. stalin simply suppressed all organisations that he considered would threaten his power...the church was simply one in a long list. they were NOT atheists just murdering megalomaniacs who we are well rid of.
We have one life, and one Earth. There is nothing else so live your life in praise of this wonderful accident and enjoy every beautiful day you have. Be good to your fellow man and be kind to all of nature. We are simply house sitting for our children.
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I think there are many and varied comments here on the website, but in my experience people in general are reluctant to talk about God in public. Now that's a different story! I'm very public about my religion but work colleagues are scared to ask me any questions just in case I might "convert" them - which of course is not the case. Everyone is entitled to their own view but we all still need to talk about it in the open.
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People in this country have been driven away from religion by the attitudes of the churches.
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I wonder why those with no faith do protest so loudly. Could it be that they realise they are missing out on something. Having Faith is wonderful.
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As it happens, I was born and raised a CoE Christian in normal English household. Did Cubs and Boy Scouts, sang in Church Choir.
Then I grew up.
Looked at other religions as much out of interest in human development, psychology and self-support and insight.
As my nickname suggests, I dabbled with Buddhism and have come to the conclusion that behaviour, morals, principles, consideration, sincerity, security and identify come from within, not without.
There is no god, we are responsible, we cannot blame anyone else for our behaviour.
And to say I need to "establish a relationship" with the Lord, his "son" or read the Gospels I only say "Why?" I have read the Bible, and the Koran, and many other religious texts and the one thing Winston said is that we seem to be programmed to believe in something outside us.
But we're also basically programmed as animals ... but civilisation, science and technology and all our development can show us the way forward and to improve our common lot.
Relying on a non-existent, transcendant Being and his "stories" for salvation, redemption and hope is daft, illogical and irrational ...
.... and for those who had their prayers "answered" I would point out that if enough pray for something, then a statistically small but significant number will get what they prayed for! That's not God - that's natural life!
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I have to take issue with Jenny above who says that Richard Dawkins is arrogant because he thinks he has all the answers. That is the last thing he thinks - he's a scientist. In the God Delusion he says that one of his most moving memories was when a fellow scientist recognised a new theory as being correct and changed his viewpoint. That's science. That's intelligent.
Who is the most arrogant? Someone who is willing to debate and change his point of view OR someone who thinks that the universe was created for them; who has the ear of an almighty; who thinks that he is part of the chosen people; who will be risen at the end of the world and who is prepared to condemn people of other ways of life?
Take a look at the Christian Voice website if you want to know about religion.
Finally, I know that people will yelp that Christian Voice is fundamentalist but while ever there is a bunch of moderate people reading and teaching original texts, there will be loony tunes willing to condemn homosexuality, willing to picket book shops for having book signings, willing to fly planes into buildings.
Ban religion.
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Re Didasko's comment number 99 - I'd love to see these convincing arguments of the existence of god. Every single argument I have ever seen either does not stack up or can equally be applied to the existence of the omnipotent giant chicken.
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In response to the question posed, personally I am never ashamed of GOD or as I call him Yasweh (JESUS). The distinction between christianity and any other religion is that Christianity is the way of life it gave me peace and joy. I have been in so many circumstances where I just prayed JESUS get me out of this mess and he always does whether personal, to provide through the current crisis such as credit crunch, health issues, even when family trouble you.
Try for yourselves it works!! UK used to believe in GOD thats why we succeeded in everything for example top of the economy, we need to get back to calling on HIM in every situation and circumstances thats why USA is succeeding they rely on God.
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In response to the comment posted by anahina, I think it is disgusting that people can publicly write about such an important issue to so many people in such contempt. If it is your personal belif that churchs are represive institutions then that is your (some what misguided) opinion, but you have no right writing it in such a hateful way on such a public site. People often say their is no respect left in Britain, and this only helps to prove it.
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I think it all comes down to a fear of death. Human beings are intelligent things and simply can't get their heads around the fact that, after 50-60-70 whatever years it all comes to a crashing end.
There doesn't seem any point to life, so we create one.
To embrace God means that it'll be alright in the end.
But it won't.
Because at the end of the day we're all heading for the same hole in the ground or industrial sized furnace.
Deluding yourselves might help you sleep better at night, but it doesn't change the plain, simple facts.
Sorry to break it to you guys!
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Did I hear that right that Adrian Chiles suggested
that because the slogan on the the side of the bus said 'go out and enjoy yourself' that it was somehow encouraging immorality just because the people behind the slogan were atheists.So in other words if you don't believe in god you are immoral. If anybody actually looked into christianity and it's history they would discover that it was implemented by the Roman emperor Constantine 350 years after the event and most of it's major events were in fact lifted from a Roman religion of 1000 years previous where the Jesus character was called Nisrath. I have no doubt that there is a spiritual place in the brain as Dr Winston suggests , you only have to ask yourself why in every corner of the globe every tribe has a god, but it doesn't mean that
christianity is true and think about it, every religion can't all be right but they all think they are and that's the danger.However I think that the biggest danger about religious people is that they actually believe that this planet was made by their god for them and that they have dominion over all animals and habitats. It is these idiots who will eventually destroy us all. Religion is all about saving yourself and living forever , how selfish.
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A christian above asks an athieist whether they have read the bible, the very cheek. I wonder if you have read the bible, like Numbers 31 v17-19. That is where your (loving) God tell the Isrealites to kill all that breathes but you get to keep the virgin girls. Hmmm what would the Isrealites want with virgin girls, lets think for a very brief moment? so, have you come to the same conclusion as me?
the bible is a violoent, misoginistic, and intolerant book the likes of which should have a warning on the front of it warning of emotional and intelectual damage if taken seriously.
By the way i have read and studied the bible, and the Quran, and i see no reason to belive the words to be divine or divinly inspired.
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i am an atheist the good thing about this country is that we dont need to go about talking about god all day if there is one we dont stop everything for religion .religion has killed more people than anything i no and only causese trouble round the world and most of this trouble is caused by people shouting it is for some kind of god people should be kind and fare to all then the world would get on a lot better .so dont start going like a lot of these countrys that revolve round religion
get a life
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Having faith is not always wonderful... Having faith based not on reason is an injustice into the philosophical pursuit of Truth itself.
Surely, if God is all good, all mighty, all true... He would not object to people trying for themselves to discover what is true, and thus to value the beauty of Truth all the more?
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It is neither impolite nor something to be ashamed of .... just pointless to turn off your brain and join the fairy story indoctrinated superstitios ten percent of the population. I was told these things when I was a child but, thankfully, I've grown up now.
PS. However, I do believe in Santa Claus and would feel terribly affronted if anyone were to criticise my faith in a disrespectful manner
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Regardless of whether someone believes or not in a God of their own choosing, I can be difficult for some people to talk about religion because of political correctness and jobs worth, ie, check out the story about a nurse in Somerset who's been suspended just because she offered to say a prayer for someone.
Everyone should be able to believe what they believe, and discuss it openly should they so wish without fear. We should all be united as one human race whilst embracing and celebrating our diversity.
As Dave Allen used to say, 'may your God go with you.'
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mercurialcaro
"having faith is wonderful"
believing things without proof is faith.
Therefore, believing in fairies must be wonderful;
Believing that the world was created by a flying spaghetti monster must be wonderful;
faith in the religious sense is an insult to humanity.
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162 mercurialcaro.
We atheists complain because, in case you haven't noticed, those without faith don't go banging on your door earnestly advising you to lose it.
Nor do we have pulpits all around the country from which to preach our views, nor do we have a cosy establishment with the state (the Church of England has), nor do we get automatic slots on the Today programme or automatically allocated seats in the House of Lords.
And nor do we get a balanced broadcast on The One Show.
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While I may respect anglicans, animists, bahaais, baptists, branch davidians, buddhists, catholics, goreans, hindus, jains, jehovah's witnesses, jews, methodists, mormons, muslims, ndokis, pagans, parsees, pastafarians, quakers, rastafarians, satanists, scientologists, shintoists, sikhs, taoists, voodooists, and wiccans, [to name but a few], as fellow human beings, their beliefs are so disparate [often to the point of war] that it is manifestly obvious that at most one could represent "The Truth".
However, in the absence of any verifiable evidence to prefer one and reject the others, the most rational and sustainable course is surely to align oneself with agnostics, atheists, and humanists.
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Their are in fact thousands of Christians who are scientists - many of them leaders in their fields. For example the organisation "Christians in Science (COS) " contains many of these people in the UK. Examples of eminent Christians who are scientists would be Prof Frances Collins who leads the Human Genome Project world wide and has published the book called "The Language of God." which is profound and worth reading and also Professor John Wyatt who is Professor of Paediatrics at Great Ormond Street whose book "Matters of Life and Death" informs the debate about human life from the bedside and the cotside and for me has a greater reality and resonance than Dawkins works including "The God Delusion"- all of which I have and have read.
I myself am a member of CIS and both a Doctor of Science and a Doctor of Philosophy in Biophysics and Physiology and a Diocesan Reader in the Church of England (Anglican).
The BBC seems unaware of these resources.
or is it that it does not wish to know?
Prof Dawkins' arrogance in the pursuit of a fundamentalist atheism is an attitude which is unacceptable in any scientist since a theory lasts only as long as the next experimental result that contradicts it and therefore an attitude of humility would not come ammiss for all of us
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Maybe I am being stupid here as I am completely ignorant to all religion's but isn't that the point that there is not enough bums on seats in church because of people like me are not going, not that the people that believe are embarrassed to talk about their religion??
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Surprised at Adrian's comment that not believing in god is amoral. In the light of history and current world problems I think the opposite is true ie look at the millions of deaths caused by religious belief. I think the world would be a far safer place if all this mythology was dumped and Humanitarianism replaced it. Let's hope local Muslims don't recognise me or I could get killed!
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Ray Winstons comment about a spritual center in the brain can be answered easily by the folloing argument:
It has been said by many a modern day preacher that the human brain has a “god centre”, this was announced after neuroscientists conjectured that certain parts of the brain were stimulated by ideas of god. This is no more than twisting the evidence to support a hypothesis: it is no less true to say that there is a “bicycle centre” between our legs, because that is where bicycles reside. To say there is a “bicycle centre” it would need to be proven that our limbs were designed around the bicycle and not the opposite. The reality is that if our brains contain a “god centre” it is an area of the brain that the god hypothesis can inhabit and not an area specifically designed by god and for god. As our limbs are capable of fitting pogo sticks and horses where bicycles fit, the god centre could be inhabited by any number of similar ideas, ideas that could prove more beneficial.
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I agree with you "climb8b1970"
Though I suppose it doesn't count because it's 'in the old testament' ?...
Though oddly, the ten commandments of the Old Testament are a major part of modern Christianity :S...
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It's interesting to note that the majority of people who express their opinion of disbelief appear to be either aggressive or mocking towards those who do believe. Please note I said the majority, that doesn't mean everyone. I really appreciate reading those opinions which are well thought out and structured and, indeed, give me something to think about.
It has been said that religion is not the same as belief in God. I hold to that. You see religion is very man based, whereas belief in God is a relationship. The reason aggression or mocking won't stop a person believing in God is simply because God is as real to them as the people around them.
I end with a question to debate, not to provoke aggression but sincerely just to leave folks with something to ruminate about; we will all die one day. For those who believe, if they are wrong, when they die they will have lost nothing. For those who do not believe, if they are wrong, when they die, they will have lost everything.
Discuss!
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Couldn't agree more with Bhoddhisattva above. Why do we need religion? It's patently obvious to anyone who cares to look around them that the Creationist theories are wrong (take a look at David Attenborough's 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' on iPlayer for some pretty good evidence), so if there is no God of Creation, as I firmly believe, I see no need for any worship of any deity. The Bible has some truths in it like 'treat others as you wish to be treated yourselves', 'love thy neighbour' etc., but they should go without saying and not require any faith to go along with. Most of the rest of the stories in the Bible are little more believable than any other fairy story written since. The old testament in particular is a book full of hatred and fear, and I'll never have a child of mine be indoctrinated into believing any of it. Should they choose that they want to learn about religions of any kind I will of course let them when they are old enough to make a value judgement on the matter.
By the way I was brought up in a Christian household, went to church every week until I was 18 (i'm now 34), and have read lots of the Bible. It just does not tie up with what I see in the world around me.
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ProfPalace - Read my comment (number 55) and get the book if you want to hear some good arguments. Francis Collins is definitely a proper scientist - Physical Chemistry PhD, then MD, then went on to become a Professor and head of the Human Genome Project.
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I'm a born again believer and proud of it. I am not in anyway ashamed to talk about my faith.
The programme aired tonight was one-sided as it didn't state that, as Christian's in today's secular society, we are discriminated against for sharing our faith. You just have to look at recent press in regards to the nurse who asked to pray with a patient, the BA worker who was asked to remove her crucifix, the worker who didn't want to go against her belief in marrying homosexuals. The list goes on and on! These have all led to suspensions. You wouldn't believe that this is supposed to be a Christian country. Is it any wonder why people may be embarrased to talk about their faith for fear of persecution!
I wish people were more open to talk about their faith and share the Gospel as people's salvation reply's on this. This nation needs Jesus!
God bless. X
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i'm sorry, bt the 'flying spaghetti monster' comment is completely insane. if someone wants to believe that, fine by them. whatever rocks your boat. if we as christians think that our faith is wonderful, then who are you to say that we are insulting humanity??
YOU have faith that God doesnt exist...does that mean you're insulting humanity? tsk...how very dare you ¬¬
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Many comments here state that this piece was biased and pro God Christianity.
Well what about all the biased Darwin worshipping programs on the BBC at the moment with evolution being rammed down our throats as "The Truth". Evolution (other than within species) is an unproven theory with huge gaps.
Even Prof Winston, a friend of Dawkins, said that science is just different versions of the truth - well so is Darwins theory.
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I personally do not believe there is a God.
If there was such an entity why is there so much pain and suffering in this world.
Many people in the religious sector refer to the bible as Gods word, but if you look at the bible properly it’s a book of stories handed down to promote human morels.
I feel that religion in this country is very Victorian in the way it’s practiced, and is used for the wrong means and ends.
If you look back in history roman’s had icons to various elements within the planet we live on, like wise so did druids and pagans. So God is a resent icon that believers worship.
Whether you believe or disbelieve no one has the right to ridicule others for that, and make comments that intrude upon their views.
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It is true that there are hundereds of scientists that are christians, and i would conjecture that there are millions of scientists for which religion and god do just not feature at all.
Now if the majority of scientists believed in biblegod or qurangod then i may feel the need to investegate further, but alas no.
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The problem associated with declaring ones faith is it against the current PC to declare Christianity, but not being Muslim or Hindu. These other religious groups wear objects indicating their faith, and have the backing of the Law, but individuals wearing a crucifix have suffered the objection of their employer without retaliation of the authorities on behalf of the individual.
This country has been a christian country for a vey long time, but is now asshamed to be. Shoping is more important.
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People are embarrased to talk about many things. For many people I think the idea of God has become a nonesense given the knowledge that we now have about the world. They would prefer not to talk about it because the don't like to upset those that still believe.
The idea of God to explain the unknown has now become unessesary.
It is possible to have a great life here on earth without waiting for an afterlife that doesn 't exist. If we all worked hard together at getting the most out of the only life we have the world would be a better place to live
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I would like to point out that the largest growing evangelical Christian group in this country are amoungst the white middle classeswho are certainly not ashamed to say they believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Example Holy Trinity Brompton (C of E) and Christ the King (Evangelical free church) in Brighton..2 of many.
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Lizbethmaggot's comment about the fact that as a christian, she doesn't see Homosexuality as a problem, as god said to love, and therefore it doesn't matter if they are the same sex, illustrates to me as an atheist how fickle religion is. How one person interprets it is totally different to another. People use religion however they see fit. It's so inconsistent.
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sorry about the qouestion marks should have typr in propper light
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I believe in William Shatner.
William Shatner is God! :-)
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All 'religions' and in this I include atheism, agnosticism, communism, or any other strongly held belief, are as bad as each other. Whether one believes in God or not, it is patently obvious that the Human species has been'designed' not to get on with each other and everyone has their own idea of how this would best be resolved. The word for it is Human nature and, unfortunately we're stuck with it.
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"YOU have faith that God doesn't exist"---
It's not the same kind of thing...
There is faith based on reason... ie, it is likely that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, so therefore I have faith that it will...
And there is faith which EXCEEDS reason...
ie, I believe in faeries...
So if as an atheist I look at all the proofs offered by science, which can be verified over and over and OVER again, and with my philosophical a priori arguments too, which (hopefully) are ncie and coherent, then it is a lot more probable from my position, that God does not exist. Therefore my "faith" is reason based- it does not exceed reason.
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As some posters have pointed out, the question of the origins of the universe lies at the heart of the question of whether God exists or not.
Science says every effect must have its cause, but it also says there is no first cause. So it cannot explain who or what caused the Big Bang and and as a famous astronomer and physicist said, "it cannot bear the thought of a natural phenomenon which cannot be explained, even with unlimited time and money".
To believe that the world was created from nothing is to believe in a naturalistic atheist explanation for the origins of the universe which is misguided at best and irrational at worst. Because you would also have to accept that life came from non-life; persons from the impersonal; order from chaos; minds from the mindless; reason from the non-rational; information without a sender; and morality from the non-moral.
On the hand, it is completely rational to believe in a theistic explanation which says the world was created by a Creator; life comes from Ultimate life; persons from a transcendent personal Being; order from an Orderer; minds from a supreme Mind; reason from a rational Being; information from a Sender and morality from a moral Person.
Atheists have unjustified confidence in their supposed 'knowledge' of the non-existence of God. In this sense, an agnostic is more in touch with reality.
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188 RevCarl
"Evolution is ... an unproven theory with huge gaps..." Such as?
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I feel very strongly about the adverts on the buses,one i am a Christian,,and my religion is very personal to me,but i feel i must say that if it had been about any other religion,there would of been all hell let loose,and fatwahs flying about all over the place,come on,not one law for one,and one law for the other
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Hi !
I am not ashamed or worried about talking to or about God.
Nor are my family,friends or collegues.
( I am a Christian Nurse working with all religions and denominations.)
As a practising Christian and Roman Catholic I believe we all have a right to an opinion for or against a deiety. Just because I believe in Jesus Christ in a Romen Catholic way doesn't make the Jews, Muslims, Hindu's etc, or other Christian's any less valid in there belief's. I welcome the debate because being a "cradle Catholic" and a bit lazy about reading around my beliefs I often find talking about God and my feelings for God to others who are often better read and have good answers to questions stimulates me to find out/read/question, what I believe and up to now has helped to strengthen and support my beliefs.
I believe Respect and Love should be at the heart of all we do, say and believe in daily life whatever our differences. Love Fiona
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KeithCunningham - I couldn't agree with you more. Totally spot on!
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I found the way Anita Rani presented this report highly offensive and insulting to my intelligence. She spoke as if the existence of the invisible man who lives in the clouds was irrefutable fact. She also failed to mention why people don't like to admit to being religious.
The simple fact is people are getting smarter. We have better education and greater access to information. There is no longer any doubt over the origins of our species. The amount of physical evidence that science presents is literally overwhelming. The childlike ideas of 2000 year old dead scholars look ridiculous by comparison. Being religious in 2009 is akin to a grown adult believing in Santa Clause... and who wants to admit to that?
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We have all really enjoyed the One Show but after this farce with Carol Thatcher I am sorry but we will never ever watch it again!.
If the stories are true and it was Adrian Chiles who spilled the beans about what was a totally private conversation then he should be ashamed! What sort of a person would willingly want to cause one of their work colleagues so much trouble!!!
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I normally enjoy the One Show but I was quite offended by tonight's show. I was disappointed by the very one sided look at religion and the anti athiest views put across.
Also for a scientist, whose work I have admired, to say that because humans have a genetic predisposition to be spiritual it means that we are hard wired to believe in god is ridiculous.
Human belief in god came about because of a need to understand our world. Additionally I feel that I am a spiritual person and an athiest. I find the beauty of nature and the wonder of natural selection and evolution extremely spiritual.
Maybe in the future the show should consider everyone's views and not just those who 'believe'. Everyone always tries hard not to put down the beliefs of religious people, what about the beliefs of athiests or agnostics? Surely we deserve our views to be respected as well!
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Rev Carl.
The scientific programmes are not giving a platform to god botherers because they are not taking a stance saying that the science replaces god, they are just stating fact of science. Now if you have a programe where god replaces science then the we have a right of reply.
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I'm somewhat amazed by the intolerant attitudes that mention of the Christian faith provokes in so many viewers.
I would agree that for centuries 'Christendom' seems to have forgotten the uncompromising orders of Jesus - "Love God, love neighbour, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES'.
Too often from the 4th Century to the present those who identify with the religion that we call Christianity have warred and persecuted under the symbol of the cross. 'Pagan' tribes, Muslims, Jews and even other groups of Christians who dared to be different have faced the choice of convert or die.
But that's not the way of Jesus.
Maybe those who consider themselves to be Christians, and those who do not, ought to humbly explore together the revolutionary and uncompromising demands of Jesus. You never know, such an exploration might transform the lives of ALL concerned.
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I am proud of what God has done in my life. I do not force my views on anyway because thats not God is about. God is a God of love not of hatred, God is a God of peace not of war. Jesus has been written in history with historical evidence proving he existed. He was a man who should love, peace and showed miracles, fighting is man made. I would challenge all non believers to spend time openly with an open heart to read the New Testament of the Bible from start to right at the end and if you end it still not believing then so be it that is your choice but you may be too scared that you might actually find that what is written is real and actually the things in the bible are true and that God and Jesus are true and real, you might be surprised to read that things that were prophesised about years ago when the bible was started is actually about things that are happening now like famines, countries fighting against each other, religions fighting against each other, God gives us the chance to choose he doesnt force himself on anyone. Challenges are put our way to test our faith, and all our challenges are turned in to good and I am saying this from a huge experience of hardship in my life from being disabled, abused and much much more and now I am able to help others who have or gone through similar or are going through it to get through it. I cannot deny what I have felt when I focus on God and that is such a warm feeling of love and peace.
I know that I would rather risk believing in Jesus and a hope that there is a better world than risk not believing and it being too late to change my mind if I was hit by a car tonight and died.
It is funny how many atheist change their minds in near death experiences and on death bed.
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That's true Didasko, but do you genuinely believe that Adam and Eve popped out of nowhere and then had a conversation with a talking snake?
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I'm an agnostic in the sense that I believe that there is no way of knowing whether or not there is a god. However, I respect religion because is a force of good and helps people in their lives, gives them meaning. It is a shame that people are embarrassed and more of a shame that narrow minded people, people who don't have the imagination to consider a god, make them feel embarrassed.
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This article was somewhat one sided. Prehaps so many people didn't want to express their opinion because it is a very personal matter and not because they were embarrassed.
Please stop telling people how they should behave.
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The deffinition of delusion states that it is a persistant belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. Though this does not cover theists, Christians that believe in Adam and Eve, the flood story etc etc are deluded as there is overwhelming evidence against it. How many "Christians" are really Christians? Probably if they really think about what it means and could summon the courage to be honest with themselves they wouldn't be. As long as Christians are powerless and have zero influance on my life I don't mind them. But unfortunatly this is not the case. Religion and faith are bad things, good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion. Adrian Chiles can take a bow with his atheists have a mandate for immorality comment, the most stupid ill considered comment I've heard on the BBC for a long time. One day it will be gone, hopefully.
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groovyrileys said: It is funny how many atheist change their minds in near death experiences and on death bed.
That fits in exactly with my theory that God is merely a device to make death seem less terrifying and final.
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I am a believer, Christian by faith.
I never believed in anything at first and thought it was all fairy-tales until I had personal experiences that proved about God's existence.
Just because you cannot see, doesn't mean there is nothing there. God is there alright.
We are made as intelligent beings, our brains many, many more times complex than a computer itself and each cell in our body contains the equalivant information as many encylopedias (i think thats how you spell it!)
So there has to be something up there intelligent to create us the way we are.
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Delighted that the One Show has brought up this subject.
Several years ago I had my personal experience of God and I would not want to live without him now.
My experience has changed my life for the betterand forever.
I had prayed honestly saying God if You are there, if You are real, I know enough about You in theory to know I can completely trust You in this and every situation so I will trust You now. Whatever You decide is to happen will be fine with me as long as You are real to me and with me.
What happened next completely overwhelmed me. God poured His love over and into me. Joy filled my whole being and fear vanished. Split second exchange.
Since then I have continued to know God more and more. I quite honestly can't get enough of Him. The Bible which was once a closed, impenetrable book opened up to me in a wonderful new way and I long to study it more and more because it reveals God's character to me in a way that was once impossible.
So if like me you are prepared to be honest with Him why not ask Him to reveal His truth to you and risk being won over by Him into His wonderful life, He is real, He wants us to know Him personally, to have real friendship with Him. His friendship can be developed as any other friendship, simply by spending time with Him, reading His word and speaking with Him.
My prayer is that one person or some or many, reading this will get to know this wonderful God for themselves. Amen
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Rev Carl,
So you cannot tell the difference between the everyday use of the word theory and the scientific use of the word theory.
Why dont you pray for me (cos i cant pray for myself), and in turn i will think for you.
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I am fed up of some people trying to tell me there is no God.
My God, (The Father, Son, Holy Spirit) have been with me through my entire life. I made a grown-up decision to follow Jesus at an early age. If you have not considered doing the same, please give it some prayerful thought right now.
We were put on this earth to love Him and be in His presence.
I am never ashamed to talk about God.
MAY GOD BLESS YOU.
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209 groovyrileys
Voltaire was a life long atheist. When a priest was brought to his deathbed and portentously declaimed, "Are you prepared to receive God and renounce the Devil?", Voltaire opened one eye and said, "Now's not the time to be making enemies."
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As with all societal topics there are always many roots. I reckon that with this subject, it is not the case that everybody is embarrassed. It seems to me that those who are stating such are trying to loudly accuse those who dislike the topic. By stating that people are embarrassed you are essentially putting the idea into viewers' heads that if somebody says nothing, they must be embarrassed. Not so.
Some people will have no idea why they dislike talking about religion, but rather will have accepted it as a social taboo. Others will spring to alertness in case the person they are talking to wishes to convert them. This of course is not appreciated by anybody, as by trying to convert someone, you are basically insulting their intelligence by suggesting that you know better than they do over their own religious beliefs. This issue is never found with science, because it is never a good scientist's primary concern.
A large number of people will realise, that there exist very few religious people who are willing to discuss, debate, or indeed argue their belief system properly. Very few are open to criticism, particularly when that criticism is logical and clearly thought out. Therefore when a strongly religious person starts resorting to irrational arguments to protect their views, a difficult situation is created. When somebody dismisses your sensible conclusion you are often stuck for words, what do you say to somebody who can't even accept the most basic if and therefore statements. Hence, many people simple avoid this matter altogether.
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starfleetofficer- Belief in God isn't necessarily taking the bible literally. It was written hundreds of years ago in a different language and in many parts offers great guidance and wisdom, even if it isn't an actual history book.
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200 poodleblair
Such as....
No in between stages
Can't interbreed different species
Recessive characteristics die off so a part developed organ would not survive
Fossil records of in between stages
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It's been great reading everybody's comments!!
I want to take this opportunity not to evangelize as such, but simply to say that the differentiation needs to be made between the presence of God and many of the actions/choices of human beings - whether Christian or not.
In response to a few comments: The existence of churches is biblical in the sense that Christians have always gathered together to create community....also pulpits are sometimes necessary so the congregation can see who they're listening to!....evangelizing is biblical - it is a way to share God's love with others - unfortunately some Christians aren't very good at doing this!
Even committed Christians make huge mistakes. God gives people free will, and so contrary to popular belief, God does not force anything on anybody.
We always have a choice to say "yes" or "no" - to God or in the face of everyday decision making (God influenced or not).
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The minute Adrian said that "people need religion to be moral" nonsense, he basically accused all atheists, including me of being evil. Can you imagine the furore if he'd said that about muslims, christians or jews (who all accept that it can be moral to kill at God's command) rather than unbelievers? He'd be fired immediately, but it's okay if you're talking about atheists. A clear double standard.
Secondly, while I usually enjoy Robert Winston's input, his response to Dawkins (who, of course, had nobody to represent his arguments) was not a refutation. Apparently one only has to be "arrogant" to be incorrect now! If he dislikes his belief in God being referred to as delusional, perhaps it should be distinguishable from a delusion.
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annepann,
You believed in god before you prayed, you stated it, therefore the experience you had was purely self fullfilling prophesy.
How did god "pour" his love into you?
How can you show that this was god, or was it what you "believe" it to be?
You cannot show that your personal experiences are truly god, it is personal and cannot be transmitted. Your personal experiences no matter how powerfull you feel them to be cannot construct a convincing argument for any other person to believe as you do.
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Well put, Bhoddhisattva and Mophman,
Clearly Mr Winston hasn't read his 'best friends' book, The God Delusion (R.Dawkins) otherwise he would not have been so flippant about science not having all the 'answers'. Dawkins doesn't profess to know all the answers, neither does Harris, Hitchins et al. As an atheist, I have every right to question any religious dogmas that infiltrate our schools and political system that are not founded on evidence.
And as for religion, someone once said ( a christian clearly) that the recent tsunami was an act of god. The dreadful loss of life from that awful day was not an act of god, it was a natural disaster. If we want to talk about an 'act of god', perhaps we should be looking at 9/11!
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This just struck me now, and there are far too many for me to see if there is always a comment regarding the subject, but didnt the bbc say they didnt want to be percieved as bias when it came to an appeal about people literally being destroyed in gaza? Yet they quite happily will show bias when it comes to people being embarrassed about something that there is no reason to believe literally exists?!
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To 183. theoneshow2009
Pascal's wager, eh?
So you believe in god as after-life insurance?
Which God do you go for?
Do you think this is a convincing argument?
Don't you think an Omniscient being could see through a feigned belief?
Am always stunned when people seriously think Pascal's Wager is a powerful argument.
Just ruminating!
Also why does believing in various Gods/religions deserve to be respected more than belief in Santa, fairies and Micky Mouse etc. Why the special treatment? Have never heard a good answer to this. Anyone got one?
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There are a lot of proud Christians posting here, funny that, isn’t pride one of their seven deadly sins?
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Why do people worry about conversion? Not many Christians are trained in hypnosis!
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In response to post 126 (and apologies if I'm repeating someone else - this blog is getting rather long now...) about the "wimpish" bus poster, I would just like to make a couple of comments.
First, I didn't realise the whole religion versus atheism debate was just a contest to see who was the wimp and who was the muscle-bound victor.
Second, the reason that the slogan is "probably no God" is because atheists are not the arrogant fools that theists are. We rely on proof to explain our world and we cannot find proof of a God. By the same token, we cannot find absolute proof that God does not exist either. All we can say is that God is a massively improbable concept, almost to the point of defnitely not existing, hence "probably no God" i.e. the probability is infinitesimal.
Only the religious are pompous enough to insist that God exists AND without any proof that either they or right or atheists are wrong. Atheists on the other hand require absolute certainty of their facts.
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Christians have not "always" gathered, christianity is only 2000 or so years old, and in 2000 years like minded folk may be having the same converstion about Scientology.
But that all depends on us avoiding Armagedon at the hands of Isreal and its backers.
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fanaticat said: Belief in God isn't necessarily taking the bible literally. It was written hundreds of years ago in a different language and in many parts offers great guidance and wisdom, even if it isn't an actual history book.
Isn't that just the problem though, fanaticat? When "Christians" (I'll use them as an example) want to believe something that's written in the Bible they will. When something doesn't quite work for them they'll re-write it and re-interpret it until it does!
Either The Bible is "The Word" or it isn't. You can't just go fiddling with the bits you don't like.
There's a talking snake in the Bible. It loses credibility right there. How are we meant to believe ANY of it? Certainly how can we be expected to live our very LIVES by it?
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evansgelical wrote:
I would agree that for centuries 'Christendom' seems to have forgotten the uncompromising orders of Jesus - "Love God, love neighbour, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES'.
Loving your enemies is a pretty silly thing to do. If you do they'll defeat you. Good luck with that, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't love my enemies.
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We shoudn't be embarassed to talk about God, but for a good many years the Christian religion has been routinely de-bunked. It has made an easy laugh for some comedians, and maybe there have been a few examples of churches or clergymen which deserved this treatment. But bad examples do not prove a point.
There is, of course, no scientific proof that God exists, but many Christians have personal experience of the transformation He has made to thsir lives.
As regards any so-called scientific evidence that God doesn't exist, the evidence is highly suspect. However, some atheists like Richard Dawkins, seem to delight in attacking the Christian faith, and I do wonder why they are so angry at something that does not need to touch their lives.
Incidentally, no-one should be persuaded by Dawkins book, "The God Delusion". It has been persuasively debunked by another book, "The Dawkins Delusion". If one is worth reading, so is the other.
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What the piece on Christian Faith is that it the government and establishments are penalising practicing Christians. Thats the why reason are so afraid to speak out. Have you not the stories about the BA woman employee being sacked because of wearing a cruzifix? Or the nurse being threatened with dismissal for praying for a patient?
I'm a Christian and a fan of the One Show and think this piece was very limp-wrested. Our government is populated with leftists and communists who are anti christian, anti family unit, anti freedom of choice who use policy as an excuse to lord it over others. And to look good in supporting the 'ethic minorities'.
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It has to be recognised that Atheism is the default setting when we're born. Just because your parents follow a religion, it doesn't automatically make you genetically of the religion. I think that people should only be admitted to a faith when they are old enough to make a rational, free decision about it.
And the "Atheist Bus" is actually Agnostic. If it was truly Atheist, the message would be that there is NO God. As such, it's a cop-out - a sop to the religious fraternity.
But what REALLY bugs me is the smugness and patronising way that some Christians say they feel sorry for us that we missing out on something. If it was so good, I'd be there with you - but it makes jno logical sense, so I refute it. I'm happy to be a Free Thinker.
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I am a committed christian and if someone wishes to discuss my beliefs I am happy to oblige equally however I will not 'bible bash' nor browbeat someone. I will only try to answer their questions. As to whether there is a god, I obviously have no doubts, however I spent a long time 'researching'. I wonder how many 'athiests' have actually researched the truth. One blogger even went so far as to say there was no proof. It seems so many non-believers make sweeping statements without hard concrete research. One more thing, amongst the 'christian' community you will find many highly intelligant and well recognised people including scientists who have tried hard to disprove the existance of God without success. Also it must be noted that the Holy Bible is still the highest selling book in the world. Somebody somewhere is buying them!!
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Nice name, gitinternational. Pride might be a sin but being proud of your identity is different and that's what this whole thing is about.
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Christians have such a persecution complex! The arguments here about poor Nadia Eweida 'discriminated against' for not following the BA uniform policy are completely fallacious:
This woman was found by the British court to be actively proselytising in her workplace; harassing gay colleagues and telling them that they are sinners and handing out leaflets. No wonder she had no sympathy at the court.
Christians are happy to go bothering everyone with their holier-than-thou opinions, but tell them to just GET LOST, and it's 'dicrimination'. YAWN!
Why don't people talk about God? Because the rest of us don't want to have to listen to it!
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1. If feedback on this blog is anything to go by then Brits aren't at all embarrassed to air views on religion. Anita's survey was totally flawed: she assumed that people chosen at random on the street were Christian and thus that white, middle class Christians are embarrassed to talk about religion. When she asked a man, who had been identified before hand that he was Muslim, if he minded talking about religion he answerd "no", and this was the basis for deciding that Muslims had no hang-ups about discussing religion. She could have assumed that the people she accosted in the street as being from any religion, and then concluded that people from that religion don't like to talk about religion. The only thing she demonstrated is that people in the street are reluctant to stop and discuss anything with strangers. I think that most peole these days have no strong views on religion, so they then find it difficult to express a view. It doesn't mean that they are embarrassed to talk about religion.
2. Some people have commented that religion has caused many wars and conflict through history. This is only superficially true: I believe that conflict is a part of human nature, and reflects ignorance, fear and our tribal nature. I believe that people would have found some other reason to make war if religion hadn't existed.
3. Blog number 57 unfairly criticises Adrian Charles for suggesting that a world without God would be immoral. He was only commenting on what an advertising banner said, and wasn't expressing his own views.
4. I think that the tolerance of Christianity in modern times and its ability to accept and foster debate on its own teachings, which has often resulted in many new 'churches' being established, has much to commend it.
I believe in science and logic, yet am very happy to be identified as a Christian. We think that our human knowledge has come a long way with our understanding of science, particularly those pertaining to physics and cosmology - but the more we discover and theorise the uncertainties and unresolved questions remain.
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im young and unshamed god has totaly changed me and my life because i gave my life to him i was 15 and i am now 17 my life has never been better god is real and me and my church preach that god is real in town centur ever thursday in cardiff my church is called the potters house, god is my saviour and has made me a compleatly different person giving my life to god was the best decision i have ever made an i will never be embaressed of my lord because he was not embaressed of us when he died for us, im young and unashamed of my lord who i will be with for ever when i die thank you for reading the truth you should turn compleatly to god because he loves us
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Does anyone have any idea where the female host's lovely silvery grey jacket was from?
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"evansgelical" wrote "I'm somewhat amazed by the intolerant attitudes that mention of the Christian faith provokes in so many viewers".
Could that be because so many self-professed xtians ooze hatred?
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I for one am not ashamed to talk about the 'God' I believe in. On the contrary I and many many others are trying to find out for ourselves just why people seem to be ashamed of talking about Him/Her/It
So if so why are so many people indeed ashamed to talk about God?
First of all people have their own personal
belief/experience of what/who they define as God, if they have one at all.
I note one of the first posters above likened God to Carol Thatcher - God forbid.
Some people definitely act as though/imagine themselves to be God. (No names mentioned One Show!)
For others who are seriously interested in exploring "being ashamed, or otherwise, talking about 'God' or the 'God of Gods', may I suggest you join us on "Fresh Expressions" (www.freshexpressions.org.uk). There are groups meeting all over the country throughout 2009. (Or the local Alpha group)
May I predict despite us supposedly being "ashamed to talk about God" that The One Show gets a huge postbag about this - even its biggest numbers of bloggers ever?
Peter Lewis - Sheffield
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MisseSarahG- have you read "The Dawkins Delusion"? You might enjoy it!
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gitinternational -
Galations 6:14 says "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ", which essentially means that being boasting or being proud about what Jesus has done for you is good (i.e. not a sin). The pride that you were talking about is about boasting in our own achievements. And becoming a Christian is not our achievement, it's Gods.
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krazy_kuba, please learn about why the Athiest Bus Campaign came about:
"The campaign began when comedy writer Ariane Sherine saw an advert on a London bus featuring the Bible quote, “When the Son of Man comes, will He find Faith on this Earth?” [sic]. A website URL ran underneath the quote, and when Sherine visited the site she learned that, as a non-believer, she would be “condemned to everlasting separation from God and then spend all eternity in torment in hell”...."
http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/faq/
Regardless, there are passive *and* aggressive in all stances.
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I was very interested in your question why are people for or against God? I do not think people are against God as a lot of people believe in God. As Dr Robert Winstone said,"Spirituality is within us". People do not believe in Religion! Religion is man made. Religion is seen as other men controlling other men. Religion has caused so much grief and suffering that this is what people all around the world are not happy about. We are all starting to see how we have been conned over time about Religion. Religion is just another name for people controlling people just as politicians control people. When you see people blowing themselves up because a man tells him to, you start to see how people are using religion as a weapon to control others. My Father died in 2002 and the early hours of the morning of his death I had a vision of wavy televison like lines running through my head. This I felt was my father coming through me to give me something or to say goodbye. This event makes me believe there is some sort of spirituality or power. If this is God then so be it but no man made religion can ever convince me that it knows anything about God until it shows that it only teaches good against bad and right against wrong which is the fundemental message everyone should believe in. In the same vein Science cannot prove God does not exist but it should be able to show that Religion has a lot to answer for. Peter L
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People are bashfull about talking about God because they are seeking understanding of him all of their lives. They all will find him, even if it is five minutes before they die at 98 years old. They do not want to talk about it because it is a lifelong thought process. They are simply not ready to discuss it.
We are all born. We will all die. But when born we get our body AND our spirit (or conscience, or soul) from our father at conception and mother at birth. Thus we ARE our ancesters in body and spirit, from the very begining of all life on earth itself.
God is the good half of our human spirit. Unfortunately the other half is evil.
It is my view an atheist is very brave to admit he has thought all the thoughts and concluded there is no God spirit. It is also wrong to preach. Just answer peoples questions honestly and truthfully about what you yourself believe.
Love to everyone.
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Is religion truly about a belief in "God" or is it about a belief in yourself?
When you pray to pass an exam, or win a race or (rather alarmingly this is a real example) get a parking space, are you actually motivating yourselves to achieve that goal?
When you're sick and you get better, surely you don't believe that "God" made you better (surely "He" wouldn't have made you sick in the first place). No, surely what you're doing is channelling your own energies and, in doing so, giving you that extra bit of strength or positivity.
It has nothing to do with a higher being, and everything to do with yourselves.
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I would like to invite Adrian to come out with me on the 21st of February to watch the Street Pastors in action in a small town called Melton Mowbray and see Christians taking their faith to the streets. Last week we helped a man who had fallen, this week we prayed with a young lady recovering from a major operation, outside the night club in the town at 11:45pm. People talk to us openly about faith and God, we engage with them about our faith and as we are from all the churches in the town we feel ecumenical in our mission. We walk the streets, we pick up bottles and put them somewhere safe, we talk to people, they talk to us, and some have even come on our Alpha course as a result. This is a living faith and we only trying to serve the community in which we live.
Ted Melton Mowbray
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My experience which I cannot deny or cannot explain in any other way is that I was close to suicide due to living day in day out with pain, sickness. I was put on antidepressants but doctors which did nothing, I then from nowhere had an overwhelming sense of God talking to me saying that I didnt need antidepressants I just needed him. My life since that day has been overturned. I call on God in times of need and he answers, I pray for healing and he meets my needs when medical professionals have turned the back and said that their was nothing more they could do medically. My husband was an atheist believing that God had no place in life and that being a christian was boring and that going to church was boring until he saw how my life changed and he came along to our church which celebrates the freedom that Jesus brings (we are known as the happy clappies) "born again christians" and he then too had an experience with God which has changed his life. Both of our families have become Christians and so have some of our friends by seeing how much has changed in our lives through believing in God. I believe in a powerful and awesome God who shouldnt be underestimated. He is a real God of love, compassion and Joy to all who believe in him. A friend in need. God is a mind blowing experience that is too big than the human brain and far too comprehensive for human mind that is why alot of people dont believe because they cannot grasp and believe in one so great.
I pray that all people who dont believe in God would just open themselves up to give God a real try and if he really doesnt work after you ask him to come in to your lives then fine but to not even give God a real try is mad. What if you are wrong?
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Well done One Show and well done the presenter. One reason people are scared to talk about God is because of a fear of lack of tolerance, having their sanity questioned, being discriminated against and facing some oversensitive political correctness. Interestingly enough the comments in this blog that come across as lacking in tolerance and making accusations of insanity that would make me fearful to discuss God with these people comes from those who profess no God. If they think there is no God why are they so angry? Why so offended? Where's the tolerance. Makes me fear religious hatred in this country.
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The foundations for the most popular religions were created in an age when scientific knowledge of the world and universe was minimul, therefore you can understand why 'gods' were created as people at that time needed reason for their being and they had no other explanation.
In this modern day and age,when science has provided so much information about the earths history and our evolution, it is quite staggering that people still believe and base their life upon a book written thousands of years ago.
I respect everybodys right to believe in what they want, but the fact is there is no god, the sooner the world rids itself of religion then a safer place it would be for our children.
Furthermore, you do not need the bible for your morals, it is not needed to show you how to life your life. By stopping believing in the 'good book', will not make you a murderer overnight. Like a lot of posts, I am a proud atheist who is kind, charitable, cares for his family, I have never needed a book to teach me this, it comes down to good parenting.
On a final note, if anyone was to mutter the line ' the lord works in mysterious ways', then have a think how this would impact on someone who has lost a loved one to cancer, had their child murdered etc.. Yes it is all in the good lords masterplan, even the extermination of millions of 'gods people' the jews.
Madness.
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I have a real problem with the implied conclusion that atheism is about amorality. As Richard Dawkins explains in “The God Delusion”, morality doesn’t just come from religion, at least as I understand it he is saying that our sense of right and wrong has evolved with us and is essential to our survival as a species.
What gives religion a bad name in my view is those religious bigots like the Austrian bishop (cardinal? I’m not sure) who was quoted as saying that the New Orleans disaster was divine retribution for their tolerance of homosexuality. Does this not show a faulty sense of cause and effect? I’m sure New Orleans, like a few other places I could mention, has its fair share of blinkered bible-thumpers and religious hypocrites. Dare I suggest it’s at least as likely to have been those people who have brought down divine wrath?
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I found the article very strange and the presumption that people don't talk about religion is due to embarrassment completely illogical. As stated in the interview in the empty church, less than one million attend church regularly from UK population of 60 million, it just could be that many people, if not most, no more believe in gods than they would believe in fairies and therefore have better things to talk about.
As for Adrian's comment that the atheist bus advert is amoral, and therefore that anyone who has no need for the crutch of organised religion is amoral, was insulting to all who just like to keep sight of reality.
I enjoy the show, I just found the complete indifference to those not belonging to one or another 'god club', peculiar.
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237: The bus was not a sop to the religious, although it was as you rightly say, agnostic. The comment simply comes from atheists (or really agnostics?) who recognise the hypocrisy of stating something (in this case the non-existence of God) without absolute proof, hence "probably" no God. After all, you can't criticise the religious for believing things without proof and then make a statement which although highly likely, cannot be proven fully.
238: I would welcome a discussion of the proofs for God. I assume you can rattle them off as second nature...?
244: Hmmm. I suspect you have a very good point about Christians exuding hatred. Maybe it's a persecution complex?!
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Also interesting to note in their comments about how in America no-one has a problem, that the distinctly un-Christian treatment of atheists there did not get a single mention.
Biased tripe, with not a shred of evidence to suggest that it was 'embarrassment' that was making people stay away from Churches.
But then, the religious are not exactly known for producing evidence to back up their (self-serving) claims.
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Let me reiterate I do not beleive in any god but some of what I have read here suggests that none believers will "burn in hell".
So tell me, if I live my life in a moral way but don't believe, but am wrong about a god, would I fare worse than someone who did beleive in God but was amoral.
If "He" is all that we are told I would suspect not. But I think many believers feel the opposite.
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sweeks1903 -
Regarding your final note. I know it's annoying to keep mentioning it, but in Francis Collins' book, he describes how his daughter was raped. That's a pretty traumatic life event. He's a Christian Scientist.
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I'm not ashamed of God. I AM ashamed of the BBC right now though.
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mgcted: You see "Alpha courses"! What the heck are THEY all about? If we were all born with "God" in our brains and are naturally inclined to believe this and that why the heck do we need to go on a COURSE to learn about it?
Atheists don't need a course to behave respectfully towards others, they just need to look at the world around them!
I've never cheated on anybody, or beaten on a girlfriend, or invaded another country. I know Christians who have done all three!
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to clarify........I meant a scientist who is also a Christian, rather than a 'Christian Scientist' like Tom Cruise or whoever.
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254: I think that the reason that atheists responding to this blog are so aggrieved is simply because our view was not represented on any level. How would the tone of the Christian responses on this page change if the article had been presented from a totally atheistic viewpoint?
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As children, we were all taught that in polite society there were three subjects which should not be discussed, since not only were they of a personal nature, but they could invoke dissent and argument, and because of that were topics to be avoided.
This ruling hold true, more than ever today.
Those three subjects were : Religion, Politics and Money.
Anita is not indigenous to this country I believe, and so therefore can be possibly be forgiven for interpreting basic good manners for "shame".
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Comments are 'there is no God' you cannot see Him or Prove Him. Neither can you see pain but by golly you can certainly feel it. Neither can you see the wind/gale but we see the destruction it brings about. We are certainly not afraid to speak about it. When you have a tremendouse Damascus Rd conversion its mind blowing. I send out a challenge to all you dis-believers just kneel down ask God's forgiveness and repent of your Sins and see what happens. When you find something ttremendous you wish to share it. If you were to find a pill that cured you of Cancer would you keep it to yourself? if so you are selfish which is what the world is suffering with now.
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To answer emuoftoledo (no. 164):
I am pleased to hear that Dawkins has witnessed a scientist ditching his previously-held view in favour of a new one based on evidence: this is what the scientific method requires.
However you don't answer the more fundamental point that science cannot prove or disprove a God (or Gods). Dawkins seem to think he has disproved that a God exists, which is arrogant because science cannot prove or disprove a belief. How is he going to set up an experiment which can do this, so that everyone is convinced.? Another definition of "arrogant" is "overbearing", which does describe Dawkins quite well, at times!
What I was pointing out is that part of being human is having a spiritual dimension and this seems irrepressible whether it be worship of the sun, moon, planets (Stonehenge, Pyramids, New Grange etc), or other more recent religions: you just can't seem to get the spirituality out of the human.
All the major faiths emphasise humanistic values as being the guiding principles of our lives, our time on the planet; and there's nothing wrong with that, surely. We just need to encourage tolerance and kindness in everyone, and try to prevent extremists finding the wierd bits of religious writings to justify their agressive tendencies, which are also, sadly, part of the human condition.
The challenge will be to ensure that these potentially destructive tendencies can be channelled into more constructive avenues, such as sport (but we can do without the hooligans, thanks!), music, as is happening in Venezuela and other imaginative countries round the world.
Let's hope there are enough good people, off all faiths and none, who can put their imagination and energy into these initiatives, for all our sakes.
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My goodness, this will always be such an immotive subject. I do believe, with the experiences I have had, (not just the things that others have just told me) that there is indeed...something. I can not profess to know exactly what 'that' is of course and frankly nor should any one else. I find it very disconcerting that any one can take it upon themselves to tell others just how or what to do in the name of the God/Gods they believe, just because they 'feel' it and believe it, having studied a book written over 2000 years ago and belong to group of people believing the same. Who can say who is wrong or right, until we finally experience death for ourselves? Only by our own examples of courage, true intent and actions for the highest good can we ever ask for any credibility in our beliefs.
When I am asked if I believe in God, I want to know what their interpretation of 'God' is, for I cannot for one minute believe 'God' is a man somewher in the universe, ready to praise us for being 'good' or sending down thunder and lightening when we are 'bad'. There may be no proof as yet as to something 'other' than us but at one point we didn't understand radio waves, so maybe it's something we've yet to discover. Possibly a universal consciousness mixed with the intelligence and forces of nature. To me, all relgions are many spokes leading to the same centre of a wheel and have many good thoughts of how to lead our lives, but so often is is used to control others and to massage egos. The meditaion group I have attended for 17 years respects all religions, or none. For me it recharges my batteries and allows me to see the bigger picture. Of course, as with everything, this is also open to abuse.
It seems to me, no matter what I have learned on spiritual matters, Love and thought make a very powerful cocktail, so use responsibly and liberally. Could it be that simple?
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notmuchleft:
Well done One Show and well done the presenter. One reason people are scared to talk about God is because of a fear of lack of tolerance, having their sanity questioned, being discriminated against and facing some oversensitive political correctness. Interestingly enough the comments in this blog that come across as lacking in tolerance and making accusations of insanity that would make me fearful to discuss God with these people comes from those who profess no God. If they think there is no God why are they so angry? Why so offended? Where's the tolerance. Makes me fear religious hatred in this country.
I thought thought that was worth saying again. Thanks "notmuchleft"
I'd also like to add that by defending their beliefs, Christians don't mean that atheists will burn in hell: that's the material of comedy sketches!
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Fanaticat; see that’s the problem with you lot, you’re given a set of rules to live by and the first thing you do is break those rules by adding caveats IE; thou shall not kill…unless, pride is a sin…unless and so on and so forth.
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Yes we all will die.
And the multitude of names to choose for the 'safety net' of still existing is vast and likely to be close to endless and will always be part of the human condition perhaps?
I am an enquiring person who has no choice but to accept that the person that is writing now will die, the whole personality, all the thoughts, viewpoints, conditionings and reactions.
The idea of dying to this person before my body dies is the instruction of some religions.
And perhaps the battle to kill off other people's thinking is just a misinterpration?
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HannahryLady:
yes, it is true that there is scientific evidence to show how the world was made, blah de blah...but i never dismissed that. I am not a literal christian. i believe that science and religion can work together. so my beliefs in the creation story do not really 'exceed' anything either. atheists tend to think that all christians believe the same thing, and that we all take every single thing in the bible literally. we do not. that is why there are different types of churches. topics such as the creation, homosexuality etc, are treated differently between religious groups.
oh and ginternational: we are not proud of ourselves. we are proud of God. there is a difference. boasting about other people is not a sin...it is like how a mother boasts about her child. we love God. we are proud of him. end of.
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illustriouspeewee: No, but equally I haven't seen the Flying Spaghetti Monster but I feel it is there so, by your reasoning, there's just as much logic in my belief in that!
As for asking forgiveness? I haven't done anything for which I need forgiveness. I'll leave that for the dodgy priests with their peculiar "interests".
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254. notmuchleft wrote:
" If they think there is no God why are they so angry?"
Well, I don't think there is that much anger on here, but I do think some degree of anger is justified.
Would you not be angry if someone decided you were immoral because you didn't believe in spiritual guidance from alien beings? This is such a prevalent belief about atheists that even Adrian reverted to it in a couple of seconds on BBC1 in one of the most unbelieving countries on Earth.
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illustriouspeewee: you can prove pain by monitoring nerve impulses, I imagine, just as you can prove wind by using air speed monitors. These are not good similies for your argument.
MissesSarahG: Still waiting for those proofs of God that you mentioned....
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I have read The God Delusion, and i have to say that some of the arguments are a bit bias. But this is a book that Dawkins need to write to answer many of the question he was being repeatedly asked. Dawkins is a Biologist and the book was a polemic from his point of view. If you really want to understand the atheist stance then you should read "God is not Great" by Hitchens, or "Against All Gods" by Greyling.
Having read the God Delusion i was prompted to read the Bible again, i also read many other books from Christians and Atheist alike including "the Dawkins Delusion" by McGrath and from that i concluded that i have no reason to "believe" in Dawkins, but i didnt anyway.
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fanaticat: I'd also like to add that by defending their beliefs, Christians don't mean that atheists will burn in hell: that's the material of comedy sketches!
I'm sorry but one of my friends is a Christian. We became very close at one point and then she announced she couldn't share that kind of closeness with me because of her beliefs.
She explained that, as a non-believer, I am going to burn in hell and she couldn't be so close to me knowing that, as such a lovely person, I was going to meet such an unpleasant fate. It would tear her apart apparently.
I have no idea if this is a Christian belief, or just her interpretation of one, but it was FAR from being a comedy sketch.
The control that the church has over people is scary.
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Many Christians that I have encountered try to explain their God through their own personal experience of him. While that does bolster their own faith, providing more internalised evidence of his existence, it does in no way prove Gods existence to me, and then having Christians insist further that this is indeed proof I find is insulting to my intelligence. Do Christians really think that I am going to be bowled over by stories (from a grossly biased perspective) of healing or intervention by their God that can be explained by coincidence or chance? Religions are full of stories of remarkable healing such as “my dad was cured of cancer”, well if the cancer has a 1:25 remission rate and 24 other people died of cancer (which in all probability they did) then the remission is hardly remarkable. I read one story of one woman’s remarkable healing of cancer, three years later the cancer has returned, but she is “praising god” for the life she has left. If god had cured her surely it is a pretty low blow to give her the same cancer again, the truth is the cancer remised and there was no healing in the first instance. Christians are the kings of spin, a prayer can be answered specifically or the prayer could be answered by “no or wait”, this gives the Christian the ability to rationalise any request to their God as answered whether there is revelation of a definitive answer or not. The only way of proving a miracle was indeed from god to a doubting world is to subject the phenomena to the scientific method, and having science declare to be unable to account for the phenomena.
Religion is the only place that can guarantee you eternal life, just try to claim on the guarantee if you are not satisfied with your purchase.
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I am a member of what is called in certain sections of society a "secret organisation" this particular one is not men only and the only qualification for membership is a belief in a Supreme Being, who this is, is not questioned, and each member is actively encouraged to follow his or her own beliefs and attend their own individual Place of Worship.
People should not be ashamed to shout from the roof-tops what religion they are, but in some areas on certain days, crosses are maybe not the safest accessory
Most of the work the organisation I am a member of and similar ones are for Charity. Sorry can't tell it's a secret!
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Oh please. Christians condemn the non-religious to hell every Sunday. One atheist writes a book and suddenly you're all under attack?
Come on guys; level playing field, please! What's good for the goose...
One commenter above says 'He wouldn't get away with it if he'd done it about... religion.' That's the problem, isn't it? Religious people think they have the right to decide when someone else crosses the line, when they go about holding their employers to ransom for making them serve (GASP) homosexuals and the like. So Christian, these Christians.
(Something else that has to go, the definition that 'Christian' is somehow something warm and fuzzy, and not the offensively insane nuisance that it actually is.)
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gitinternational: I'm not one of "you lot", I'm an agnostic, but I still believe that religion is a force for good. Have you ever met a Christian murderer? If you have then you've led a more interesting life than I have! Sweeping statements have no place in any debate. Do you discuss to find answers and be challenged or simply to accuse people you are scared to accept?
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265 I see what you are saying but not particularly sensible to present a debate about whether we are embarrassed to talk about God from an atheistic point of view - bit of a contradiction in terms wouldn't you say. When Anita approached people who professed 'no god' they didn't enter into any sensible dialogue but giggled and sniggered and walked off.
Re comments about an empty christian church, I too find it tiresome that the media portray this image consistently, many buildings are packed with christian worshippers in this country.
But I would say again lets respect each others views and show some tolerance, I will respect the atheist, you respect my belief please without calling me insane and judgemental etc etc.
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Starfleet:
"Christians don't mean that atheists will burn in hell", so when Christians say you are going to burn in hell, or you will have a lot to answer for come judgement day, i ask you what exactly they DO mean?
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yellowjennyb: Richard Dawkins has never said that he can disprove God, only that he can prove that God is incredibly improbable. In The God Delusion he actually points out that because of this lack of proof, atheists can only be entirely accurately described as agnostic.
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gitinternational: I have no exact figures, but I would wager that there are many Christian murderers.
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fanaticat says: Have you ever met a Christian murderer?
Ummm... George W. Bush! Tony Blair!
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starfleetofficer - excellent response!!!!
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Even God apparently justified murder (as a poster pointed out earlier).
It's fine apparently as long as you apologise for it afterwards.
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I thought this was inappropriate subject matter for the one show - far too complex and contentious for a bit of tea time fluff and treated in such a shallow, pointless way.
Whether you believe in God is a personal matter, religion is political and the cause of much misery in the world. Please don't confuse the issue and stick to things like the ants feature.
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286- Obviously there have been many Christian murderers, but what I was challenging was the implication that they tried to justify it using religion or changed their religion for it
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Climb8b1970,
You talk of 'religious cure' in your thread. Check this site out
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/
Interesting arguments wouldn't you say?
Anyway, as my late father always said, 'As telescopes get stronger, god seems that much further away'
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The BNP and the Ku Klux Klan are also very publicly God-fearing Christians.
God love 'em.
(Nobody else will.)
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fanaticat said: 286- Obviously there have been many Christian murderers, but what I was challenging was the implication that they tried to justify it using religion
I think George W. Bush tried to justify the murder of innocent men, women and children in Iraq with religion. God said it was okay apparently.
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Signing off now think you guys have lost the plot, One Show is much more interesting.
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Belief in god whether as a christian, muslim, hindu, scientologist or whatever is just an OPINION on the existance of a supernatural being that can and does interfere in yours and others natural life and circumstances.
It is fair that this opinion, like any other opinion, is open to debate and it is held to the same standards of evidence and logical consistency that we hold other opinion too.
And when we dare to hold christianity and other religions to those standards we get told that we are some how persecuteing christians.
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climb8b1970
I believed in the possibility God was.
Yes my experience is personal and you are right I cannot do anything except tell of my experience, to witness.
Nor can I tell you how God poured His love into me I just know and believe that He did.
I suppose it's like being in love, very difficult to explain to someone else but that doesn't change the reality that you are.
It's a matter of faith. I have faith in God, others have faith there is no God, it's a choice we are allowed to make because God doesn't want robots obeying Him, He longs to relate with His image bearers.
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starfleetofficer- as someone who is clearly no fan of Bush you will be the first to admit that he was wrong: what I'm trying to get across is that religion itself does not promote killing. How the likes of George Bush try to justify war is not the doing of the teaching of any religion.
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Treeca14me.
I have been on WWGHA quite alot in the past though most of the regular posters moved to atheistthinktank.com because WWGHA was not being administerd very well.
Havent been this incenced by religion or a religioius article for a long time, i was really unhappy about the BBC piece.
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fanaticat: I draw your attention back to an earlier post:
"I wonder if you have read the bible, like Numbers 31 v17-19. That is where your (loving) God tell the Isrealites to kill all that breathes but you get to keep the virgin girls".
I think that's a fairly clear promotion of killing.
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I'm a Christian and proud to be so. However, quite often when I try to speak to people about my faith I'm shouted down by people incensed that I dare even contemplate the possibility that a spiritual everywhere-present, all-knowing, all-powerful God might dare to exist. Who's being more aggressive here, and who is the most presumptuous?
And how do people feel so confident as to reject such a God when evolution does nothing at all to prove His non-existence?
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I think its fascinating to have the choice to explore ourselves and the possibilty of a mirroring universe.
The power of the human mind and heart combined is still open to new possibilities ... and we all acknowledge that vigilance and awareness have great potential and combine that with trust, well?
Its a choice?
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annepann,
Your faith is nothing to be proud of, in fact you shoud be very very ashamed.
Faith is the belief in something with NO evidence or in the face of CONTRADICTORY evidence, where or where is the virtue in that.
There is no virtue, but there is alot of danger, if someone you trust implicitly tells you that your faith demands a certain action then you will become convinced because you dont want the evidence.
You are too scared to examine the evidence, it is only through examining evidece that you can claim to see the truth. You cannot get closer to the truth by locking yourself into a tiny box with only a bible to read.
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Also you might like to peruse this:
In the Bible God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21).
God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there.
He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).
He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).
In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife!
Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!
In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.
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As an Atheist, i want to know, how come there are several religions, Zorastrianism etc, which have at their heart the same story of virgin birth, miracles etc? I believe it is a Human need to believe in something whether it is Darwin or Fairies and Goblins. Also, all of the gospels were written so many tens of years after the events, without media to record them, they were only passed down by word of mouth! i challenge anyone without any reference to write accurately about a person or event they only heard about from their parents, i don't even know enough about my Dad to be very accurate about his life!!! I think it was all a tool for the Roman Church to keep the masses under control.
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starfleetofficer: as such a decided atheist you clearly only work in absolutes. If you believe that because in the bible there was some killing that Christianity teaches killing then you need to learn the word "allegorical". I don't claim to be a professor in theology or even a true Christian but I KNOW that the church doesn't endorse killing! Good night
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Oh let's also not forget that:
God also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
Even if there IS a God (which there isn't) he's not exactly the kind of moral pillar that I'd be particularly keen to follow!
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Would people please educate themselves, i mean asking evolution to prove the non-existence of god, is similar to asking ice-cream to prove the non-existence of frozen chips.
Who ever make a positve assertion (i.e. there IS a god) holds the burden of proof, you cannot prove the non-existence of something. Can anyone here prove the non-existence of unicorns, no, but given evidence there "could" be proof of unicorns but till this is uncoverd, i will remain a skeptic.
Evolution is about natural selection not about a supernatural being and what he can and cannot do.
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fanaticat: I totally agree that the Bible is allegorical. That's the WHOLE point! It's a bunch of fairy tales and metaphors put together to create good "moral" stories.
Rod Serling did much the same thing in The Twilight Zone. Gene Roddenberry (an atheist) did it with Star Trek.
The Bible was merely the equivalent from 2000 years ago.
As for the church not endorsing killing? Well no comment. But God certainly seems to!
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OK guys, where DO non-christians get their morals, and because God punishes people for not acknowledging Him, who are they to criticise? Who's bigger here, the Creator or the created?
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It appears new research shows church attendance is rising considerably more than in your report. Attendance figures have risen by 5% over the last year according to research done by Chritian Charity Tearfund.
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Response to starfleetofficer who wrote:
"That's true Didasko, but do you genuinely believe that Adam and Eve popped out of nowhere and then had a conversation with a talking snake?"
Whether this happened literally or not is a question worth looking into in more detail. But I have no problem with the idea in principle.
If humans can make a dog sit and teach a budgerigar (a type of bird) to develop a vocabulary of upwards of 1000 words by mimicking human speech; then hypothetically speaking I have no problem with the idea that a supernatural being (the Devil in the case of the talking snake, but this also applies equally to God such as in the case of the talking donkey) can make an animal talk.
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Terrible things such as the disaster in Philadelphia, spoken of earlier, which an Australian Cardinal used as an 'example' of God bestowing some kind of divine retribution upon an amoral community, no doubt also affected many Christians. In disasters around the world, for example the Tsunami, people who believed in many different Gods or no God at all died, or were injured, or became caught up in the events in a life changing way. I don't think examples of human disaster can be used as heavenly justice claims on that area or people, or surely only non Christians would ever be affected.
The teachings of Jesus Christ were to bestow love, compassion, and healing upon the sick and poor, but even took it to the extreme of bestowing it upon his own murderers. (Surely the killing of an innocent man is amoral enough to warrant mentioning).
Christians are told that their life won't be easy, and at times will feel like their own crucifixion. Christians are told that they will be hated because of what they believe. We shouldn't be surprised that we are put inot the back room of society, but instead should speak up about salvation and the hope that we have through Christ, and recognise our faults.
Modern day Christianity (in my opinion) teaches not what Christianity can do for the Christian, but what the Christian can do for ... their neighbour, their community, for the un-lovable people in their lives.
Not even their loved ones, but the people who have hated them, despised them and persecuted them. Christ is a difficult act to follow, which may be why some Christians are called hypocrites (and also keep it to themselves in fear (wrongly) of backlash).
However Christians make mistakes, so do many people who aren't Christians. The only difference between the two are that one of the two (of exactly the same moralistic lifestyles) will spend eternity in happiness and one will spend eternity in unhappiness, all because of faith. Not in ourselves, but in someone better than ourselves. Take for example the thief on the cross beside Jesus Christ who lived perhaps a Christ following life of what?30 minutes? He must have lived in what we may call the most undeserving life possible, but he still got eternal life.
All this through the life and death and resurrection of one man who DID live to our own (very high) moral standards (Thank God). And only in Him can ANY person put their complete and utter trust of saving their eternal souls. And thats it, when someone has saved your life how can you do anything but shout it from the rooftops? Once you believe you naturally try to turn away from the things which your saviour dislikes.
The drift of what I am saying is that, Christian or non Christian we are all equal, the only difference is that some recognise an inability to live perfectly according to a moral law, which we are all aware of (ref: numerous previous comments) away from a loving and caring God, and others choose to depend on themselves.
The choice is our own, I know what mine is.
Clare- wife of Jamieo
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kendalsmithy asks: OK guys, where DO non-christians get their morals
Well from our parents first and foremost. Mummy told me that robbing banks and not paying on the bus is bad so I don't do it.
God punishes people for not acknowledging him... I LOVE IT!!
Who's bigger? Well since there was no creator and we all inhabit this tiny little planet, I'd say the question is irrelevant.
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Several people have commented about Adrian using the word "amoral". I think the point he was making is that, if there is no God, there are no absolute standards.
If one person thinks murder is wrong, and someone else thinks it's OK if you can get away with it, how can an atheist say which is the better view? Morality for an atheist can only be a matter of personal opinion.
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I was what I thought was a "christian" from the ages of 9-19, what I didn't realise then was that I was just going to church on a Sunday and read the words, singing the songs, giving lip service but didnt really understand what it was all about, what it really meant what I was singing about so I left church. I then really starting searching and questioning what is the truth. I went on a course called "journeys" there I watch dvds about people who had been changed by their encounters with God so I was intrigued as I wanted to know about these experiences. On this DVD was a guy whose 6 year old daughter was killed by a 14 year old boy and instead of hating the boy the father forgave him as that is what Jesus taught. There was also an Atheist in New Zealand who was stung by a jelly fish, he was prenounced dead and was taken to the morg - the doctor there was just confirming his death and yet to his amazement this guy came back alive after being medically dead for 20 minutes, during this time he had an experience of heaven/after life. This is a true story and was on the news years ago. There was also a story about the Columbine Scott shootings and a young girl called Rachel Scott who was the first person to be shot. she was shot once and then the gunmen asked her if she still believe in God, she said yes and they then shot her dead saying to her to go be with her God, she showed no fear of death. Shortly before her death, she wrote an essay for school stating, “I have this theory that if one person can go out of their way to show compassion then it will start a chain reaction of the same" about 30 minutes before the shooting Rachel drew a picture of 14 tear drops falling on to a rose of blood. She showed this to teacher and other pupils before the shooting she said that she knew she wasnt going to live over 20 - she was shot at 19. 14 people including 12 students and 2 gunmen were killed that day. Since that shooting Rachel's dad has started a campaign against violent crimes and has a dvd which he has taken around the US and 6 guys who were going to do a repeat of the massacre became Christians and were stopped thanks to Rachel's story of peace. If you type Columbine school shooting - Rachel Scott on google you will see it was a true story.
These stories blew my mind
I still could not believe in my mind that there was trully a God so big and this guy Jesus that really existed who did nothing but do good things was actually real so I went on The Alpha course and during this course they showed a lot of evidence backing up the fact that Jesus existed. There is also documentaries on youtube whereby they have found evidence that the Noah's Ark has been found in Turkey and despite scientists trying to disprove they have actually been unable to discredit the truth, there is also documentary evidence again on youtube to support the story in the bible about Sodom and Gomorrah where they have found what is believed to be Sodom and Gomorrah.
This to me is to much evidence - then I add my true feelings that I have felt when I have opened myself up to God - Just cannot explain it in any other way and then there is the biblical stories which were prophesied so many years ago about events which are happening in now days. I cannot believe any different.
I would just encourage people to give God a real chance and ask him in to your lives - you might actually like it, I would also encourage you to read the New Testament to the end as you might actually believe it. If you do both and you still do not believe then fine that is your choice but until people have done both and really opened themselves up then people will not even get close to try to convince me that there is no God and that Jesus is not real....
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christapprentice: Christians are told that their life won't be easy, and at times will feel like their own crucifixion. Christians are told that they will be hated because of what they believe.
Which, of course, is pure brainwashing. Christians are basically told that they're better than everybody else and so they believe it.
I've been to a Christian service, I've seen it happen!
At one point the pastor talked about recycling. He told the gathered flock (great word by the way!) that Christians mustn't show off by recycling because they would be seen as interfering, and trying to lead by their superior will. So he encouraged everybody to recycle, but not too much. Or something. It was insane!
I've never felt so patronised in my entire life!
And then folks wonder why atheists are so angry!
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Anita - perhaps it's just that the Brummies are a bit shy when it comes to speaking out about their faith - come up North to Blackburn - I for one would be very happy to speak about my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ! Note - my faith is not based on a religion but a person, a very dear friend. I wouldn't expect people who've not met my friend to believe that He exists, but there again they haven't met Him yet. He's got a habit of going door to door knocking - but it's on your heart that He does the knocking & when I first heard Him the best thing I ever did was to let Him in. He doesn't force His way in, but I would have missed out on the best relationship ever, if I'd kept the door shut.
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The issue here is the burden of proof. Christians have had it far too easy for many years, peddling their scaremongery and bigotry.
The onus is in the proposition remember?
Sorry guys, you've had a few thousand years to convince us and its basically over now. As the late, great Bill Hicks once said, 'stop spending money on arms and lets spend it on exploring space....together'
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The WRONG QUESTION WAS DISCUSSED.
People aren't embarrassed they don't want to upset the person who asked the question.
That's the real reason they would rather not discuss it.
Most of the British population agree in principle with Richard Dawkins and Lord Winston calling that arrogant is another reason why people don't wish to discuss religion gratuitously in the street.
Religion is a personal matter.
The principal most unfortunate fact is that secular people are not totally organised as such. The world would be a very different place if they were.
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BACK ON TOPIC, PEOPLE! :)
Just before Christmas, a couple of Christians knocked on my door and were very polite and asked me about my beliefs, talking about design, etc.
They were not at all pushy and accepted that I am an Atheist, and the man even congratulated me on having a view!
Now, look at how tolerant and unembarrassed we all were!
So please stop worrying and enjoy your life :)
James,
Stoke Mandeville
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Yes - this was certainly a one-sided item, following the trend of such stories by bemoaning the fall in church attendance. As someone who finds religious belief incredible and anachronistic in this day and age, it is a pity that this attitude still prevails so much in the media.
It ties in with Adrian's response to the bus message linking atheism with people being unable to be good.
I also find Robert Winston's comments regarding science quite deplorable but unsurprising as I've heard him speak in this area before. It doesn't do anything for the public perception and understanding of science.
The piece was obviously not meant as a major, in-depth debate due to the nature of the show and time constraints, but let's certainly raise the subject with further viewpoints in the future.
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The thing is treeca14me, Christians don't WANT to prove that God exists.
I'm reminded of this classic passage from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy by Douglas Adams:
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful (the Babel Fish) could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
"The argument goes something like this:
`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his bestselling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God."
Ask any Christian, if God popped up at their front door I don't think they'd open it. They don't want to SEE god or to KNOW god, they just want to believe that there's something out there making the world all nice and friendly, and that death will be happy and jolly.
It's quite sad.
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As an 18 year old born again evangelical christian I am not ashamed to talk about GOD. Far from it, he's changed my life!
I think the problem is that our culture is now so opposed to anything about "God" that if a Christian opens their mouth they come under a hail of abuse.
I respect all believes and religion but would like to point out that if someone slags off muslims they're automatically seen as a racist or being prejudice, but if it's a christian, well let the abuses fly!
And finally in a culture where christians can't even where a cross or speak about there beliefs in work without being sacked or suspended-- how come other religions can wear head scarves and turbins and be allowed to openly pray at specific times during the day. I have NOTHING AGAINST any of this but one rule should apply to all. Political correctness is no longer "correct".
White middle class CHRISTIAN and proud!
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ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
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ADRIAN CHILES SHOULD BE FIRED FOR CLAIMING THE 7.7 MILLION ATHEISTS IN THE UK HAVE NO MORALS.
7.7 million? Cool! That's almost as many as watched the Christmas episode of Doctor Who!
David Tennant IS the spirit of Christmas :-)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Hello climb8b1970!
You mentioned this...."Many Christians that I have encountered try to explain their God through their own personal experience of him. While that does bolster their own faith, providing more internalised evidence of his existence..."
- my response is that God is a personal God and each individual is the crown of his glory, therefore the most powerful evidence is within individuals' lives.
You also commented on one of my earlier posts that..."Christians have not "always" gathered, christianity is only 2000 or so years old, and in 2000 years like minded folk may be having the same converstion about Scientology."
-After Christ's death and resurrection, believing communities emerged, ie, the first churches. They may have been small communities, but they were essentially churches.
Finding the right way of expressing myself in defending or sticking up for my faith (and I have needed to) is one my areas of growth as a Cristian, this is great practice for me!!
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I am not embarrassed to say to anyone that I’m a Christian. I am extremely proud of it. I find it interesting that this point is being discussed, and I congratulate the one programme for bringing it up. I am part of a group of churches that are contemporary, fun and do a lot of good in the community. It is constantly growing (not in decline) as the article suggested. However, I do find that being a Christian in this country is looked down on and I have felt discriminated against. In fact I have been asked in a job interview at a university whether my “faith” would interfere with my work, because of a brief mention of the fact I was a christian in the “other interest’s” bit of my cv. In the media Christians are portrayed as weird, down-trodden, deluded and weak, but the truth is we are not, we are normal, happy people who actually go out there and help others! If you look you will find many Christian churches and charitable organisations that really make a difference in this country.
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Was I watching the Bill O'Reilly show? Where was the counter argument?
Dr Winston stated that the title of Dawkins' 'the God Delusion' is "outrageous" and "arrogant". Surely no more arrogant than the Christian belief that those who do not seek salvation through Jesus Christ will be cast into the flames for eternity.
He also stated that Dawkins called it a delusion on the basis that it was not "what he believed". He should give Dawkins some credit as a scientist, he makes this observation based on a huge amount of research into evidence for or against God's existence. He rightly calls it a delusion because there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER for Gods existence. If this is not delusional then I would like Dr Winston to explain what is.
He then rather chillingly made that transparent maneuver which I have seen Christians make in debate which is to question the value of logic and rationality calling science merely "a version of the truth" as their last hope of salvaging some intellectual credibility in the face of the obvious incredulity of their beliefs. Of course this is fatally flawed not least because one cannot use logic in order to refute logic.
Then he said that Dawkins was a liberal thinker which was in line with the liberal ethos of the church. He says this at a time when the Anglican church is in turmoil over the issue of gay priests. I think it is safe to say that the scientific institutions Dawkins endorses do not discriminate against it's members on the basis of sexual orientation.
Then earlier we had Robert Beckford describing a "crisis" in the white middle class community, referring to some peoples embarrassment when it comes to professing their belief in God.
When individuals hold unpopular beliefs, they are sometimes too wary of debate to bring them up in public. I hardly think this can be deemed a crisis.
Not one example of persecution was given so where is the problem?
The One show lived up to it's name, giving us ONE opinion. Pure and unfettered religious propaganda.
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ladylydster says: my response is that God is a personal God and each individual is the crown of his glory, therefore the most powerful evidence is within individuals' lives.
So I actually CAN have William Shatner as my God? This is excellent news! :-)
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I am a believer and I have no problem talking about God. I do however have a problem with some of his "disciples" (ie the clergy). Priests abusing young boys and receiving no more than a slap on the wrist and being moved to another parish where they can continue their "hobby".
Religious institutions abusing young vulnerable children. Vicars and priests with mistresses. The Vatican were / are
"allegedly" a main shareholder in a pharmaceutical company producing the "pill". The sanctity of the confession - even if it means saving lives or bringing a grieving family closure. I cannot sit for 1 3/4
hours listening to someone telling me how I should live my life and that I should spread the gospel and be proud to be a Christian. I
am proud to be a Christian. I am proud to talk about God. I am convinced that without Churches, Sunday pulpits and the hypocrites that stand in them God would do very nicely thank you.
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Evilweed:
Some excellent comments. I agree with all of it, including your concluding statement!
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The comment of the day is by:-
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Keith Cunningham
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A beautiful succinct statement.
THREE CHEERS
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A lot of the comments here are around the 'proof' of god which I guess is borne out of the original comments on the show regarding 'being embarrassed'.
However I would be interested to know from those monotheistic believers out there how they feel about religion being part of our education system (ie. teaching creation theory alongside Darwin & Einstein). And do they feel that religion should play a part in our political processes. Are, for example, theocracies morally acceptable when put into practice?
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"Are we as a nation embarrassed to talk about God?" In my opinion, the answer is NO.
But unfortunately it appears that, whilst we are being encouraged to accept "diversity", we MUST not allow that to embrace Christianity.
It is a sad reflection of our times that Christians, such as the nurse suspended for saying she would keep a patient in her prayers, are being persecuted for "daring" to say this to another human being.
This suspension is further proof that religious freedom of speech obviously doesn't apply when a Christian is trying to be thoughtful.
If a person of any, or no religion, wishes us well, by keeping us in their thoughts OR prayers, then why should they be suspended from their workplace?
Once we were known as a Christian Country, now we mustn't offend others by celebrating our Christian faith. I say this because, today, led by so called "Politically Correct People" we are being encouraged to take Christ out of Christmas, to celebrate Spring rather than Easter, to stop wearing or showing Christian symbols such as the cross so that we don't offend others, yet we must accept celebrations of Divali, Chinese new year, clothes such as the muslim veil, and the wearing of turbans etc
If, as we claim, we accept everyone irrespective of colour, culture or "creed", why do we continue to discriminate against the people who choose to believe in a Christian God? eg Airline worker told not to wear a cross at work.
Examples of discrimination against Christians within their own country by their so called leaders is possibly one of the reasons for SOME people being reluctant to discuss their faith with strangers, - and that is indeed a very sad reflection of our times.
In reply to other comments made in previous letters, those who claim NOT to believe in God should not worry about Faith Schools, as there are VERY many state schools not attached to any faith or belief. Christians accept that it is a person's free choice to attend a state school. However, why are so many Anti-Christians constantly arguing against faith schools? Those who wish to have their children educated in a faith school do so out of THEIR free choice. It seems that those opposed to faith schools are shoutng the loudest, - isn't that a form of discrimination?
Yes, the numbers of people attending church are dropping, but those who do attend do so out of Love for a God in whom they are PROUD to Believe and Serve.
Lots of them do want to talk about God, - but then they're accused of "Preaching" .
The term "Hypocrite" is one often referred to people of faith, - but those claiming freedom of choice and diversity should maybe think again before criticising Christianity. Have people got a choice or haven't they?
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Leave Carol Thatcher alone. And sack Adrian Chiles.
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If you want William Shatner as your god, there's nothing to stop you!
Not sure if he'll love you like God does though...! That's what I mean by personal - eg. I understnad that each life itself is gift from God, and that we are physical living evidence of him wanting to have a relationship with each one of us!
So, back to the original question - no, I'm not embarassed to talk about my Christianity. I have a question myself - is anyone embarassed to talk about their atheism? :)
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Ladylydster,
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I'm a proud,proud atheist who is far more interested in understanding the world around me than to be bogged down with religious dogma. Life is extremely short.
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336 comments, it doesnt seem to me we are afraid to talk about religion, in fact, a can of worms seems to have been opened.
Land and religion seem to be the cause of most wars, why fall out, we all worship the same god, we just have different names for him, and by the way why can't he be a she?.
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Why should anyone be embarrassed by their atheism? Can anyone suggest a reason?
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p.S. even more comments while I was writing
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340 comment... mmmm. what was that quote I remember from the atheist to the christian....oh yes....' We are both atheists, I just happen to believe in one less god than you do' People do not worship the same god.
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I am a proud atheist. If any religionist assumes that I share their beliefs I am happy to let them know that their beliefs are far from self-evident.
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surely it again comes back to our britishness being driven out of us.
we have to welcome multi faith and no adverse comments accepted.
we have to appologies for our past sins, slave trade, dresden to name two.
it is better to be inferior at sport since every body hates us if we win.
we have to love euro(pe), and mass imigration.
other wise WE are problem not the solution in that we have accepted all these things for a 1000 yrs quite happily then in 11 yrs we have ben the problem not the solution.
support carol, sack the person who complained, a draconian sanction for a feisty individual much needed in todays bland pc world.
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Why oh why has my first post at 7.08 been "referred" to a moderator?
No racism, no slang or swear words, no reason for it to be objected to UNLESS you are a religious person and dislike logic and fact being used to question superstition which is what religion is.
Outrageous that such a post has been deleted.
Please treat this as a formal complaint.
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The show tonight has been a great challenge to me. I am a Christian and I am embarassed that I don't share my faith as I should. I am not ashamed to speak about God but ashamed that I don't speak about Him often enough.
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Support for Carol. She apologised in private for a foolish remark made in private. it should have gone no further and as for sacking her from the show, I hope she gets to discuss it on the Jonathan Ross show
Margaret , Shropshire
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Thank you for raising this on your programme.
I am a 44 yr old mother and wife, who you could say was from a white, middle class back ground.
I am also one of a number of Christians in this country, that are happy to talk about our beliefs, when it seems appropriate to do so.
The nurse in the news ' ASKED ' the patient if they wanted prayer, and they said no. What harm did she do ?
It would be great for the One show to interview Nicky Gamble of the Alpha Course,
which is a very successful and widely known about free course, for people wanting to investigate the Christian faith, who is pastor of the very successful Holy Trinity, Bromton Church , in London.
Blessings to you, through ' JESUS ' Yvonne
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I too am dying to know why Boddhisattva was censored. What was the nature of the offensive material?
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350 comment: Me as well. Could Boddhisattva explain what he felt could have been offensive in the post?
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I am NOT ashamed that I am a Christian and that Jesus Christ is my Lord, Master and Saviour.
I am ashamed of being British the way this Great land is going however with its turning away from biblical principles that made this lGreat land what it was.
Maybe that should be your next question.
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Folks
I didn't refer my own post (post no 2 at 7.08pm) - someone else did and I genuinely do not understand or see how I could have broken any of the house rules!
I have logged a complaint - if those who have faith need to suppress a post like that, then either they or their "god" or "belief" is too fragile to be real!
Whereas I am not afraid to stand up and debate and be counted.
I wish to see an end to all superstition, ignorance and brainwashing.
Richard (Aldbury, Herts)
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What a shameful and discussing example of the BBC airing religious propaganda.
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*disgusting
;)
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Richard,
have you tried to resend the post just in case there was a 'gremlin'? (mmmm gremlin, now there's another topic!!!)
Tom (Caithness)
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Sadly I didn't keep a copy of it! ;-)
BUT I will report back if I get them to reinstate it ... the first time I've ever posted on a blog as well ....
Outraged of Aldbury!
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I always use a text editor and cut and paste. I've had a few posts blocked myself in the past.
Long live free speech!!!
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If athesists are so sure that God's not real, then why oh why do the adverts on the buses say " There PROBABLY is no God..."?
Why does Richard Dawkins refuse to enter into debates with world renound Creationists?
Why does a man so anti-God take his whole family to CHRISTIAN churches for CHRISTmas carol services because he likes singing the songs--- Why does he like singing songs to praise a God who in his eyes doesn't exist.
Answer,
because he knows deep down that God's real,
beacuse he's scared he'll loose the debate and
beacuse he has a God shaped void that can only be filled by the one and only true God.
Food for thought!
Big time believer and proud!
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I'm not ashamed to talk about God.
I'll also talk about ghosts, flying saucers, the tooth fairy and the possibility of West Brom ever winning the Champions League.
Mark, Eastcote
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Boddhisattva comment at 7:08 was one of the first comments that I read on this blog, I, for the life of me cannot recall anything remotely inflamatory, Could one of the moderators please explain the reason for it's removal please?
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We are ashamed to talk about God for the same reason we are ashamed to talk about Zig or Jek or Yrt - talking about things that don't exist normmally means we end up in a loony bin!
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359: Why does Richard Dawkins refuse to enter into debates with world renound Creationists?
Dawkins has spoken and debated to a number of people regarding creationism. Who are these world renowned creationists? Or are they a figment of your imagination, just like your god!!!
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Why can you only have morals and standards if you believe in God? Having been a regular churchgoer for a number of years I was sickened and disgusted by the "holier than thou" attitude of some of the congregation. There is a group of women at my ex -church that were so judgemental and back-stabbing and yet at the same time managed to be the "backbone" of the church and held in high esteem by the clergy (good job girls!) that I fondly refer them as the "coven".
I was always told that God is all around us.
That's the clergy out of a job then. Amongst my fellow churchgoers I learned they only took their sorrows and troubles to church to ask for help and guidence. This surprised me at the time because I used to thank him for the good things that had happened to me that week and "discuss" how to handle any negatives that cropped up. I still do - but no longer in a church. It's great because I don't have to wait until Sunday morning to chat to him. It's actually quite liberating.
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And - regarding the nurse asking the patient if she would like her to pray(saying 'please God I have no medical skill so can you help?'), would it be OK for a Devil worshipper to offer the patient to say 'please Beelzebub, I have no medical skill, can you help?' and, if not, why not? Please grow up you religious loonies - if you want to believe in nonsense, Britain allows you to but let's not have 4 religious freaks tell us that Dawkins, a great scientist, is arrogant when he is not even there to defend his, factually based, view.
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If I said my next-door neighbour had murdered hundreds of children and I have the highest respect for him as a moral teacher, you wouldn't waste time considering just how insane the pair of us were - you'd be ringing-up the police.
However when the Old Testament describes god doing just what I've described, Christians rush to justify his actions ...... always, in my experience, on the basis that he's god and he can do whatever he likes.
If I was a Christian, I'd have the decency to be "embarrassed" too.
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Re: 242 Pretty toyah
God might have completed changed your life, but he has been surprisingly lax about your punctuation skills.
Now...
1. Everyone here is an atheist about every other God but their particular favorite. So perhaps they should be more careful about what you say about atheists. Think what your thoughts are about Zeus, and you'll begin to understand my feelings towards your more fashionable God.
2. The Theory of Evolution has an enormous mountain of supporting evidence from many disciplines of scientific study. It's an adaptive, cumulative body of knowledge that is immensely powerful, well-supported and has predictive power.
3. The "Probably No God" slogan shows that absolute claims are not the currency of freethinkers. How many unsubstantiated assertions are made by the religious, here, and in public on a daily basis- all without evidence and a hint of self-consciousness.
The fact that such a mild "Probably no God" has so many people bleating says ample about the fragility of the 'faithful'
4. Have a lovely day!
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I thought we believers were escapists. Yet the bus advert states our beliefs cause us unnecessary worry. It can't be both. And atheists frequently tell us how they are more rational!
Adrian's comment was a lighthearted joke. And atheists complain about us being touchy about our beliefs!
Usual arrogant statements about, there is no God, pasta monsters etc. Starting to get tedious.
Regards
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(This is the first comment I've posted using this service, so I'm afraid I am rather exhausted after going through the registration process!)
Your feature on "Why are we ashamed to talk about God" was very much appreciated, as it highlighted an issue which, it seems to me, was in much need of public discussion.
Talking about God, for a Christian, is to my mind an essential part of life. If you believe in God and, more importantly, believe what the Bible says about God, it should never be embarrassing to talk about God - yet sadly for many professing Christians it is!
It is understandable for public figures such as Tony Blair (when he was Prime Minister) to be cagey about their beliefs, since as he pointed out, in his position his views would have been wide open to misinterpretation, both as to what he believed and as to his motives in revealing what he believed.
But as a Christian, especially but not exclusively if one is a private person with no media circus to fear, I feel one should have the courage of one's convictions. In my case, I cannot pretend that I have always been courageous in this way, nor that I could guarantee fearlessness in myself even now - I know my own limitations. But I hope it will never be said with any justification that I was "ashamed" of my faith in God: otherwise might He not be ashamed of me?
By saying that "talking about God is an essential part of life" for a Christian, I mean that the message of hope, salvation and the love of God is so good that if you really believe it (which I do) you cannot possibly keep it to yourself. If you did it would be selfish as well as cowardly.
As to whether the answer to the question you posed is yes or no, this depends on who is going to listen to someone talking about God. If as a society, "religion" is a taboo subject, then it may not be that we are necessarily "ashamed" to talk about God; it may instead be that society frowns on such talk and therefore we feel it is less welcome. Perversely, the same people who might accuse us of cowardice in not speaking up about what we believe, would be just as willing to condemn us if we did go public and (as they would think) spread propaganda in doing so.
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a_fine_summer Utterly brilliant, thank you. That clears everything up and addresses all the issues. Superb reasoning. Yes God is great.
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Regarding the bus poster "stop worrying and enjoy your life". It is merely trying to assert the idea that one does not have to have existence explained in order to be happy.
On the other hand.
Hell would worry me, so would the idea that all Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists and anyone who does not follow Christ will end up there. So either way you read the slogan it works fine for me.
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Way back at post number3:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4409168/Nurse-suspended-for-offering-to-pray-for-patients-recovery.html
"Here a nurse was suspended from work after offering to pray for the patient, what is wrong with the world when people cannot be comfortable with their own beliefs."
How would we react if Mrs Petrie's (the nurse in question) religious beliefs would, instead of preying be to offer a sacrifice; have her slaughter a goat on top of her patient and make her patient drink it's warm blood?
Would that be accepted?
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i must say that I am neither ashamed to talk about God or ready to start into a big chat about him every time i meet some poor soul. I feel fed up with the chat of God-botherers in the chat I hear about me and feel intimidated that I will get pressure if i bring the subject up.
I prefer to be polite and if someone asks what i think then i will share my personal beliefs in God, just as I would about the war in Iraq or the economic situation.
Faith shouldn't be this big controversial thing but many seem to give the impression it is. Don't know why but there you have it.
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I don't see how a non-white, non-Christian presenter feels qualified to announce on TV how "white, middle-class Christians" feel about God.
Is this on the basis of her extensive investigation of asking a few people in the street and them ignoring her?
She chose to put it down to embarrassment. She's half right - it's that this group more than any other has been taught to be embarrassed about everything they stand for.
But it's not embarrassment about God that prevents people from taking it seriously - it's having an post-enlightenment education and not believing primitive superstition anymore. We don't believe in possession or witches or divining anymore either.
The fact that minority groups in Britain still feel comfortable around the subject is not a point in its favour. And certainly not an example the rest of us should follow. We are being dragged back into theological arguments about God and religioun and state and evolution that were won a century ago because of this influence. Maybe it would help if there were a little more embarrassed about it and realised it's not a subject that belongs on centre stage in Europe anymore and organisations like the BBC grew up a bit and stopped pandering to it.
Andrian Chiles' comment about regretting atheism after you die if there turns out to be a God is depressingly illogical for a man of his abilities. Typically assuming that believing in any God is better than none, when we all know that Gods save a special kind of torture for anyone who happens to follow the wrong path. As a religous person you have a 1 in 3000 chance of getting it right, as an atheist my odds are only marginally worse and I can live with that.
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I have always enjoyed this programme and was sad that the use of specific phrase could result the removal of a person from the show.
Through out my life I have lived, worked travelled for pleasure and delighted in meeting and getting to know people of all races creeds and opinions.I was at school 60 years ago with many different racesstaff and pupils, my children did so also 35 years ago .My friends and I still socialize and enjoy the company of a wide group.This however is being threatened by the very people who say they want to establish a multicultural society in Britain today.
You can request politness from all and should never seek to hurt another but this must not mean you are prohibited from speaking freely in private and public on any subject. This will only nurture fear and divide society and cause hatred.It is terrifying that it is becoming impossible to speak freely on so many subjects and use albeit somewhat archaic words or express beliefs.This is the way of totalitarian societies.
People who are vociferous about issues as occured in the green room, who reported such and the BBC who acted on it must be consistant and realize that Anglo saxon words used out of context ageist remarks and personal remarks must also come in to the frame.The violent and obscene language heard all day from the BBC offends so many of all ages so we must have the same action taken with all that offends anygroup.
Perhaps instead we should grow up, realize the great value of freedom of speech, ignore remarks we don't like and not expect to force any form of harmony which can only evolve, like friendship.
Educate our children to be thoughtful, kind and considerate and we may achieve racial religious and social harmony in our country.
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I seriously doubt that the BBC has a legal leg to stand on if it attempts to suspend a person's contract over the contents of a completely legal and private, out-of-hours conversation.
I think it's time some employees who've been subjected to this heavy-handed orthodoxy took them to court to challenge them to justify their extremely weak arguments in favour of this completely exagerated and biased emphasis on certain taboos.
Does the BBC genuinely not realise what a parody it is becoming?
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If one is uneasy about speaking of God it is possible that one either fears the provocation of hostility, being perceived as some sort of zealot, or one recognises ones personal failure to live according to God's Commandments. It is natural to want to share good news but our society instead prefers to rationalise its sins and turn away from anything that interferes with the pursuit of power, fame, wealth and pleasure to the detriment of oneself and others. One can have infinite love for eternity but one must be willing to receive it, so say that prayer today!
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And for anyone who is interested ...
http://www.jeshua.net/
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Oh yeah and favourite chapter is 'From ego to heart IV' ~ many thanx x
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what2what2
I'll keep it simple for you since you seemed confused about what I was referring to.
Just about everyone nowadays, believes in scores of assumptions for which there is some evidence, but no perfect visual proof to back up what they adopt as their belief or non-belief as the case may be.
And does not science itself demonstrate that visual proof is the weakest proof? It is constantly being revealed, as mankind studies both the natural and the material world, that outward appearances do not accurately reflect the inward realities at all. To illustrate:
The prosaic steel girder under close magnification reveals a mass of electrons whirling around each other at incredible speed. These tiny bodies are governed by precise laws, and these laws hold true throughout the material world. Science tells us so. Are we to believe these men of great study? Off course we are, we have no reason to doubt them. Furthermore, they tell us that without these same precise laws, the existence of planet earth itself, its exact position in the solar system and supporting all life forms on it are so precise that the margin of error is 10 to the power of 200. Now here's the interesting bit. A group of very notable scientists have stated and published their findings with the conclusion that to attain the degree of accuracy for earth to exist exactly as it is, is so critical that the only conclusion they can reach is that a creative intelligence had to be behind it. That being so, how many non-believers are willing to support the very same scientific community who otherwise oppose the idea of God on these findings?
Now what2what2, are you getting my drift from what I said in my earlier comments. eg.,
"what do you believe"; and "why do you believe it"? If you believe the scientific view, are you now in danger of picking out from their works, or Dawkins book only those bits which lend support to what you think you believe?
Here is the problem to which apparently no one has ever provide the perfect solution either way whether believer or not.
Going back to the simple example of the prosaic girder and the whirling mass of electrons. When the perfectly logical, or if you prefer illogical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life "as we see it", there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence responsible for creation and evolution, it is right here at this very point where the perverse streak comes to the surface where many people laboriously set out to convince others that this just isn't so. They ready wordy books, indulge in windy arguments, thinking they believe that this universe needs no God to explain it. Were those contentions true, it would follow then that life originated out of nothing, means nothing, and proceeds to go nowhere. Regarding themselves as intelligent agents, many who claim to be agnostic or athiests are of the opinion that their human intelligence or more correctly, the intelligence of others because it supports their view is the last word on the subject, they are so convinced. Rather vain don't you think.
Consider this. A scientist's point of view.
To rule out God would mean you would "have to claim" to know everything.
Therefore, on purely logical grounds, to rule out God absolutely you would indeed "need to know" everything.
If you knew everything, that would require infinite knowledge, then you would be God, or at least, equivalent to the knowledge God is attributed with. So your "worst" position, in that sense, would be that you are agnostic.
Science tends to start from the basis of the physical world being reality and everything else, if it exists, emanating from that. The truth is precisely the opposite. Physical reality is not Real Reality; it is an illusion created by Real Reality.
From Spirit came Consciousness, from Consciousness came the Physical World, and from the Physical World came Science. That makes it very difficult for physical science to prove or disprove the existence of consciousness, let alone Spirit, from which it is three times removed and shows how limited science is.
An example of the limitations of science is that, contrary to what some claim, there is no such thing as "scientific proof". Science is only capable of indicating that there may be a particular outcome as the result of an action, or to an event. It comes down to probabilities.
However many experiments are carried out, predictions or forecasts can only be made on the basis of probability, but not with absolute certainty. Unfortunately, that does not stop some who claim to be agnostic or athiest using scientific arguments and talking in such terms which results that many people adopt the idea of agnostism or athieism. Furthermore, in arriving at this conclusion they have accepted someone else's opinion rather than from their own personal study or experience. This amounts to allowing yourself to be taught.
While science has achieved a great deal, it is of no great help to ignore its limitations.
At least if you learn for yourself what you believe, and why you believe it, not only will you broaden your experience, but your ability to state your case will be expanded of its own accord and have as much validity as the next man's, instead of just taking something out of Dawkins book or other such works for they represent merely opinions, and as I said before, opinions are like armpits, we've all got them, but some of them really stink.
Jock Scotland
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The One Show was one of our favourites -and the people who present it - but last night's biased pro-religion was the BBC at its worst.
But not only that I could not believe the stance taken by Adrian. What an insulting thing to suggest that those of us with no belief have no morals.
I feel the only way round this awful mistake is for the One Show to have a few ordinary athiests - I would give it a go - just chatting about their lives and non-belief. I am so angry and upset.
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Hear hear, do you realise who the Dr Robert Beckford is referred to above and in the piece?
He is a "Dr Robert Beckford (born 1965 [1]) is a British academic theologian and a reader in black theology and popular culture at Oxford Brookes University, " according to Wikipedia and many other sources which can be Google'd.
So, where was the balance BBC?
Another example of pro-religious bias to the detriment of those who believe in the natural world, not the supernatural.
PS Still waiting BBC for any response as to why my post at 7.08pm was removed by the moderator. One is supposed to receive an email but I have not - nor to my complaint.
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Continued from blog 245:
For those who would like to continue this discussion may I recommend that you listen to Aled Jones' weekly "Good Morning Sunday" 7am till 9am Radio 2 when listeners are welcome to text and email their unashamed feelings about God, spritualility, life and love etc.
People of various religions and none get in touch and all our views get equal airings.
The music's good too!
Peter Lewis - Sheffield
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When people have come up to me in the past and said something like "Can I talk about God?" it has generally been followed by an attempt at conversion. In one case it ended in two Jehova's Witnesses praying over me in the street that I may be freed from my wrong ways. If that ever happens again then I'll have to pray back that they may be less intolerant of other people.
I'm normally fine talking about religion. Some say I talk too much about it - but my community expects me to be part of a church who's beliefs I do not share. I'm not unreligious - I'm just not Christian - and that causes some people problems.
Christianity teaches evangelism. People who are strongly Christian seem to believe that it is their duty to tell others. OK - there are plenty who don't believe this and are happy to discuss other ideas and find the common ground, but enough can get evangelical.
I think it's the thing that unfortunately religion is more than just a preference to some people. There are beliefs that who you worship if at all is more important than other aspects of your life and when that comes to the fore discussion can be uncomfortable.
It's not "I find Jesus really good, but I recognise that you find your religion good too." it's an often implied sometimes explicit "The bible tells me that you'll go to hell if you don't convert.". It's often "Jesus is the only way" and a complete refusal to find that common ground.
That is what makes religion uncomfortable. To be a non-Christian challenges Christian beliefs. Evangelical Christianity challenges other beliefs.
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Excellent piece - thank you, BBC. I've never detected any "pro-religious bias" in the BBC, and features like this help cancel out any suspicions of "anti-religious bias" we might have been harbouring!
Personally I'm a Christian, and a Franciscan, and totally happy to discuss my faith with anyone, anywhere - so long as I'm not belittling anyone for their lack of a faith, or for having a faith that differs from mine.
I think the point that some people on both (all?) sides of this debate miss is that while faith is not a private matter - none of the major religions teach that it is - it is an intensely personal matter: we owe each other respect, and care, for that, just as we (I hope!) respect and care for others' personal views and needs in other areas of life.
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I hate the way that saying "I believe" or "I have faith' gets by with so little challenge by supposedly intelligent people.
In what other area of life is believing something with no evidence or, in many cases, contrary to plenty of evidence, considered a good thing?
You can believe what you like, but you can still be wrong and you don't deserve respect for it.
It's superstitious belief that has Nigerians driving children out of house and home or in some cases abusing them for being witches. Where's everyone's pompous respect for those "beliefs"?
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Quote: Jockhighlands
Post 380: A group of very notable scientists have stated and published their findings with the conclusion that to attain the degree of accuracy for earth to exist exactly as it is, is so critical that the only conclusion they can reach is that a creative intelligence had to be behind it.
Here we go again....more waffle. So who are these scientists then? Where are their published findings? Also your closing comments about Dawkins merely having 'opinions' is also waffle. Dawkins is a respected scientist, along with many others whose work is constantly analysed and subjected to scrutiny. That's the beauty of science, it constantly argues and refutes its own findings until it finds an argument that's more compelling. It's a pity we don't know who your 'notable scientists' are otherwise we could have a rational debate. Obviously the most useful debating tool within the religious community is often referred to as vagueness.
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People are ashamed to talk about god because they know that ,in this day and age ,religion cannot be an explanation of life
and the universe. Where as Darwinism has been proven, by overwhelming evidence to be correct. Fundamentalist Christians with their aggressive nonsensical dogma give liberal Christians,who are allowed to think, a bad name. If it gaves comfort to some people then great but keep their religion to themselves we are all entitled to our views. I am Atheist but that is MY business nothing to do with anyone else. I am not ashamed, of being an Atheist , but I am not going to wear a placard and shout dogma in the streets most people find these people are nutters.
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It’s interesting that so many atheists have responded to the question with statements such as “There is no God” or the old adage “prove God exists”. It shows how single minded they are that they simply want to push their belief on other people. It is a belief just the same as a theists belief.
I think this may be part of the reason people don’t want to talk about their faith because atheists always step in and say these things. In my experience atheists are far more adamant they are right than anyone of faith I have met.
Another point is that in British culture there is a saying “You don’t talk about politics or religion”.
Faith is also a very personal thing and the British are very reluctant to talk openly about personal things.
See I managed to answer the question and not say “There is a God”.
CRD Poole,Dorset.
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I am certainly not embarrassed to talk about my Christian faith. I think Christians find it difficult to mention the name of Jesus which is strange bearing in mind if we don't have Jesus we don't have our faith. Whilst nobody can ever prove 100% either theories of creation or evolution, I have concluded that one must have to have a far bigger faith to believe the evolution theory than the creationist one.. I have just read a really good book called "The Reason for God" by a guy called Timothy Ketter.Published by Hodder and Stoughton. Its is soooooooo good best £15 I've spent in years.
Always happy to talk about my faith in Jesus. Incidentally if anyone has really studied his life they can only conclude that he was either a complete nutter, a liar or he was who he said he was.
Brian Arnott of Heathfield East Sussex.
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#390: "I have concluded that one must have to have a far bigger faith to believe the evolution theory than the creationist one"
That's understandable. I mean, with all the fossil records and verifiable proof for evolution, it's far more sensible to believe what our primitive ancestors fabricated.
Or could it be that you'd just rather believe what you'd LIKE to be true?
Even the majority Christians churches now acknowledge that evolution is a fact, qualifying that the account in Genesis is just a fable. I suppose it's a start.
I just find it maddening that you can present religious people with physical verifiable evidence for evolution, and they completely dismiss it. With no counter- evidence, except the scribblings of a bunch of jumped-up, deluded cavemen. I don't get it.
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Perhaps Friedrich Nietzsche was right - GOD IS DEAD.
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Surprised that there are no comments on Mr Chiles actions in which he decided to report a private conversation with Carol Thatcher. As for Ms Brand taking umbrage this must be the untimate case of a fat kettle calling itself black.
Always thought Chiles had been promoted way above the level his talent deserved.
Looking bemused seems to be his only contribution to the programme however as far as I'm concerned I will be watching Channel Four in future.
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"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
-- Chapman Cohen
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Hi merrycathcart (post no. 393).
Regarding your query about there being no comments about the Carol Thatcher incident. They have somehow disappeared.
I've been reading them again this morning after commenting myself last night. Suddenly, I do a refresh and the page has changed.
All comments (over 150 at least) about Carol's alleged comment are nowhere to be seen.
If you've put them somewhere else BBC - where are they? If you've removed them - SHAME ON YOU !!!!!!! :(
Are you that scared about what people really think?
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So much for freedom of speech. Where are the hundreds of comments supporting Carol gone..
I won't be watching the one show anymore.
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I think a lot of "so called" Christians have forgotten that Christianity is not about relgion but about relationship.It is the only faith on earth which is based on a two way love relationship a relationship with a God who loves us and wants the best for us. (John 3 v16)I am happy to talk about my relationship with God as it is the whole foundation of who I am. I do not go to church out of a sense of duty but because I want to worship the one I love.I try not to do the things that displease God because I love him. I am just as unashamed about talking about my love for God as I would be talking about my love for my wife.
As a footnote Why does the BBC insit on plugging Evolution and not allow Creationist's a say? Come on One Show give us a fair debate on this. Modern DNA methods have proved most of Evolution to be impossible!!
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The key word that keeps appearing is faith, I know, we have a soul, I Know I have a soul. It is not a matter of faith, do you not KNOW. Your pain is apparent, I feel it. Proffessor Robert Winston is on the cusp, he will I think, eventually find. Richard Dawkin will not. A
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#397: "Modern DNA methods have proved most of Evolution to be impossible!!"
Interesting.
But completely untrue. I suppose the world is still flat as well?
Creationists believe the world to be something like 6000 years old, younger than the domestication of the dog. Give me a break.
Actually, yes, put these opinions on TV. Give us all a good laugh.
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BBC: why has my first post, the second on this blog (at 19.08 Tuesday evening) been removed BUT:
a) no email sent to me as you are supposed to
b) there was nothing offensive in it
c) no reply or response of any kind to my posts and emails of complaint.
Please acknowledge and then remove this if you wish but it's otherwise impossible to bring to your attention it seems!
Richard (Aldbury)
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#397: "Modern DNA methods have proved most of Evolution to be impossible!!"
Um... Reference please? CItation? Research paper?
Oh my mistake. I forgot the religious have the self-appointed privilege of making wholly unsubstantiated claims in the face of contrary evidence.
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I don't feel it impolite to talk about God with people in public. I have done so and will continue to do so for He has made a big difference for the better in my life and in the lives of many of my friends.
God is not the great ogre-in-the-sky that people often think He is. Look at what is written of Him in the Bible:
"The Lord is gracious and compassionate. Slow to anger and rich in love"
and
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest .... for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
I feel duty bound to tell people of the richness of God's love for them.
(Note: I'm always polite and non-pushy when talking with people).
Mike
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somewhere the comment was lost, whoops. Ask this of all your evolution protagonists. Why would evolution give humans a receptor, which if they use, will eventually kill them, and does,- drugs. Ask them what is compassion, why do we need it, and yes I have, ask them how many souls do you have, three. Ask them, why 97% of your DNA stands by unused, but coded. Ask them who is going to push that button to enable it. Guess who. I have walked and talked with,,,,guess who.
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The American writer Daniel C Dennett said that the problem he has with religious people is no matter how hard you try (as an atheist) to enter into debate regarding faith, evolution etc. you will always end up having to offend believers simply in the way they construct the argument.
I also get sick of being told that my atheism is somehow just as 'religious' as the main three monotheists. Nonsense, that's a little bit like saying (quote)
"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour."
--Don Hirschberg
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403: "Guess who. I have walked and talked with,,,,guess who"
Well it wasn't a decent psychiatrist, evidently.
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ascend8 if you have done these things, walked and talked, it would be nice to see the evidence - photos, recordings of the conversation etc. This would ,make front page news so why do you not provide this evidence. We atheists ask one thing - if it's true show us the proof.
Thanks Andy.
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Maybe asking the right people would help! Those in my congregation are encouraged to share their love for God and most do so!
But in out nation it is extremely difficult for Christians to be heard due to being ignored are 'singled out' for their faith... many shouted to the BBC re feelings to the Jerry Springer opera, we didn't riot or threaten - but got ignored. then the recent incodent were a nurse did offer to pray with (not force) a patient and as now been suspended. I can never understand the limits given to the Christian who wants to speak out or talk about God. Perhaps the question should have been 'why are we ignored or why choose comments from those who choose to nominalise God?' Actually the Christian Faith is growing and relevent in churches that do not compromise their faith in any way.
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Re: 402
Yes God's words are wonderful. Here are some that warm my heart and spread the Word of Love amongst the humble sheep and Light the World!!!
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Exodus 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
And the Bible has wonderful scientific insights that are TRUE:
Psalms 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
And entirely consistent!
John 5:31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.
John 8:14 Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid.
What's there to be embarrassed about? Feel duty bound to go out and Praise God!!!!
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405; conniedrag
Thank you so much for making me laugh in this sorry thread:)
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Can I ask a question? Are all the sorrowing people who leave flowers and messages at the scenes of a tragedy "believers in the afterlife"? Why are the papers regularly filled with Anniversary or birthday memories messages to the dead? Who are these people writing to? Who do they think is reading their personal messages? It always puzzles me.
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If you speak to God, it's called prayer.
If God speaks to you... SCHIZOPHRENIA!
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Some of these comments are grossly insulting to Christians. Some people are Christian; get over it!
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I don't see much anger or hatred from atheists. We just want a level playing field which we didn't get on this show. If you are religious then fine, but respect has to be earned. Keep yourselves out of our schools and government and you can pray to whatever fictitious character you like, otherwise expect harsh criticism from the rational majority.
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Post 407:
What do you mean, you haven't been heard or listened to as a christian!!! (What about songs of praise...see many atheist TV shows do you?)
Last nights 1 show clearly didn't want ask the opinions of atheists. What about the 7 million UK non believers (and rising) who don't get a voice?
We're just tired of listening to any of you who hold religious views. Look around you, look at the carnage you've all created as a result of your 'hellfire and damnation'
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How pathetic is the BBC and how sad is Adrian Chiles to 'sneak' on a fellow presenter. It was apparent that he couldn't stand Carol Thatcher from her appearance on the show the other night and was determined to get rid of her. Unluckily for him, most of the British public have come out in her defence. Until the word gollywog is banned from the English dictionary (which it is not) it should not be offensive to use the word. Indeed, I bought a gollywog key ring made by a firm in Kent only the other day. Chris Moyles and Jonathan Ross get off lightly but, just because Mr Chiles doesn't like someone, a presenter has to be fired. Talk about double standards.
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Also treecal14me, I watched the first new year edition of 'songs of praise' from the royal observatory. The program talked about the star of Bethlehen and went on to talk about astrology. There was little science. I think this terrible for this to be on at 6.00pm prime time when that same night 'the sky at night', talking about real astronomy (400 years of the telescope) and science was shown at 10 past midnight. We are immersed in a superstitous, non-rational culture where real science, which has advanced our civilisation, has to take a backseat.
Andy.
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Please, please please don't take this the wrong way but did the fact that the members of the public may havethought it was a muslim asking them put them off talking about God.
Jethro
Cheshire
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Very true Andy,
It reminds me of a scenario which featured in one of the books I read (could have been Dawkins) which goes like this;
Imagine if you took several prominent people from the 14th century and froze them in time. Lets say that amongst these learned folk, were a scientist, an astronomer, a doctor and a religious leader.
Okay, fast forward to 2009.
The scientist is first to be defrosted (looking somewhat puzzled at the man-sized microwave next to him!!!). His jaw drops as you explain the breakthroughs in modern science over the last 700 years (which I won't go into).
The astronomers jaw also drops when you explain that the sun doesn't go around the earth, along with the other planets etc etc.
The 14th century doctor learns of stem cell research, cures for cancer, and of course modern drugs to treat mental illness, (rather than a drill to the skull to allow the demons to escape).
The 14th century religious leader gets thawed and asks....'what's new?'
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1) Ms Thatchjer's remarks were not in "private" - they were made in a business/work situation. I should hope she would have the common-sense to see that.
2)If she sees no harm in them, would she have made them live on air?
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1) Ms Thatchjer's remarks were not in "private" - they were made in a business/work situation. I should hope she would have the common-sense to see that.
2)If she sees no harm in them, would she have made them live on air?
Jethro
Cheshire
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Hi Miltonline
This is not the place to have the debate about evolution it is, you will agree a Hot Topic. I guess it all depends in "What you believe in" Evolution is as much about faith as Christianity in fact I think you need more faith, but I would say that!! There is as much evidence to prove creation as there is evolution but the likes of the B.B.C. do not seem to be interested in this. If you are really serious about what I am saying there is a very good "non bias" DVD called "Life's Story" which explains why evolution is not possible. NPN Video www.npnvideos.co.uk
All I would ask non believers is "What is the meaning and purpose of life? Why do we exist at all?
Why are we the only creatures on earth who can laugh at a joke or fall in love or enjoy music. I think most of this come from our human "Spirit" which is there weather you admit it or not. God still loves you even if you don't believe in him. That is the wonderful thing about God's creation of man, he gave us a "Free Will' to choose, he did not make us robots... I respect that you do not believe that, is your choice...
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The question of evolution and creationism is rearing its ugly head.
The contention is the request that we teach Christian creationism as fact in school science lessons. I believe that it can be taught in RE lessons, and science lessons should put forward the case for evolution and an understanding of what science is and how it works.
Creationists may complain about their children being taught evolution, but non-believers don't expect their children to be taught about creationism in that way.
What would those that wish for creationism to be taught in schools think if we also demanded that the Hindu model of cyclic time is taught also as fact? After all, none of the claimed evidence for creationism actually tells us who created it, and at least the Hindu model allows for a universe of sufficient age to explain things like fossils.
The state schools around here have Christian assemblies, yet accept children of various backgrounds. What are they saying to these children about their family's beliefs?
There are questions concerning religion that do need to be asked, and do need people to come together to sort them out.
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God. What on earth is there to talk about. It's the same as talking about Fairies.
If you want to believe in something so intangible their is no evidence for it fine. I am willing to discuss God at any time. My approach is simple, PROVE IT.
Bogoffski
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Concerning evolution giving us receptors for drugs - drugs work by using receptors that we do need to function in every day life. These receptors are not otherwise useless, they are essential. It's just that some people have found ways of subverting them.
Concerning Christianity being the only religion with a relationship with 'God' - have you talked to many people of other religions about their relationships with their gods?
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treecal14me, I think it was Sam Harris that said something similar to that as well. He said if all of our technology somehow vanished and we had to start again what would be the 10 most important things we would want back first. He then went on to mention food, water, clothing, shelter/housing, medications, transport, communications. He then went on to say at what point would someone stand up and say 'right what are we going to do about this giant imaginary figure that lives in the sky - who wants to talk to him first'.
Andy.
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I am an atheist. A relative is very pro Church and belief in God. It is impossible to have a discussion because the relative does not want to hear or be faced with questions about this all-seeing all-hearing god. If he is responsible for all the 'good' in this world does he/she accept responsibility for all the bad. Suffer little children to come unto me - millions starving in Africa. How did Mary have a baby without having had relations with a man - no AI in those days. These are just a few of a string of questions I would like an answer to but please don't come up with the myth that she was visited by the Holy Spirit, a Spirit has no substance.
What has happened to all the support blogs for Carol Thatcher, did you find them to be a tad embarrassing. I suppose you will use the excuse that they were not connected with your subject matter. However, the comments do matter to the people paying the licence fee.
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All those who say there is no God I say: If you're right Christians have not lost any thing. But if there is a God, then those who deny Him lose everything! Think about it.
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Pascal's wager celticfish.
Andy.
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On the contrary celticfish, it is you that will lose out. Having to live by a code which denies you the opportunity to think rationally. You're typical of those who base their religion on fear and greed. The fear comes from the threat of not being accepted into the kingdom of heaven, and the greed is wanting to be there in the first place, often climbing over others to satisfy your goal.
For me, I'm happy to live my life in the real world and being in awe of our beautiful natural environment that Darwin so eloquently illustrated in his work.
Now there's someone to praise!
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The BBC refused to publicise the desperate need for humanitarian aid to Gaza on the 'principled' grounds that this would compromise its neutral stance.
So where was there any evidence of neutrality, or indeed objectivity, in last night's programme?
It was assumed every member of the public believes in god (they don't).
It was concluded that everyone is embarrassed to talk about god (they're not).
And why are we paying for the hosts of this show to express their half-baked theories about atheists? - luxuriating as they are in an atheist-free zone.
And how exactly are we meant to have any respect for a reporter who raises a question, goes on to the streets to put it to her chosen sample - then returns to base duly ignoring any evidence she found that contracts what she clearly wants to believe herself?
In conclusion, morality exists in spite of the Bible, not because of it.
'God' is far too busy slaughtering people in the Old Testament and threatening eternal damnation in the New to be bothered with such humanitarian/atheistic niceties as morality, ethics, fair-play and the likes.
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Surely the answer to "PROVE IT" is "TRY IT". (“The proof of the pudding is in the eating” so it’s said)
Having faith in God is like having faith that the bridge you cross, over the raging torrent below, is going to support you safely across to the other side.
Also it's nice to see my prediction that this God topic would produce the biggest One Show blog-bag ever.
The fact that it has, says something surely - and uniquely shows how we are all connected, believers and non-believers alike, in matters of the spirit.
See also my previous posts (blogs 245 and 383)
Peter Lewis - Sheffield
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431: Having faith in God is like having faith that the bridge you cross, over the raging torrent below, is going to support you safely across to the other side.
Ok. But if that bridge is made of invisible rope, and tethered to the ground by invisible screws, you'd be an idiot to step onto it.
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Peter lewis Sheffield-
See the 1st paragraph of my post 404......I'm just biting my tongue?
You just don't get it do you?
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I am a Christian and have no problems telling people who ask me. However, I would be very careful letting Adrian Chiles know that as he would probably report me to the religious police!
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I was disgusted by the attitude of the presenters and of the show in general, who appeared to think that everyone was religious whereas recent surveys show that around half of the people in England are not.
I think religious people should be ashamed to admit that they still believe in fairy stories, after all, people stop believing in Santa Claus in childhood and there is no more evidence for some beardy sky-fairy than there is for Santa.
Me? I'm an atheist and perfectly happy to talk about it.
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Nameless of wherever-
But the faith bridge isn't - try it and see.
Dare you!
Peter Lewis - Sheffield
Blog contributions 431, 383 and 245
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Tried it already. A Catholic upbringing made me the good, upstanding atheist I am today. :o)
And you're right; the faith bridge ISN'T. Period.
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436:
Whether the 'faith bridge' is invisible or not makes no difference to those religiously blind people who cross it.
Remember, for most of us who don't believe, we've had this crap rammed down our throats most of our lives so we have experienced it and said no thanks.
How about attempting to read more than one book in your life Kingfrugal?
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I was bought up in a Christian family and enviroment...even though I now don't go to church I still believe in God and everything Christianity stands for. I'm proud of my family and especially my father who is retired now but is a Minister of Religion.
If I ever find myself in the middle of any kind of conversation or debate about 'religion, God etc' I never feel ashamed to say what I believe - but at the same time I respect other peoples beliefs and views.
Reading the many views above I have to comment that atheists do come across as very angry people with a point to prove??!!
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I could be wrong but I have the feeling that Anita Rani selected and presented the interviews that supported the view that we are ashamed to talk about God.
I don't think people are ashamed to talk about God, they are simply not interested. God is no more relevant to most people's lives than Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy
Dr Jim
Haslingden
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The Thatcher Nonsense
I am not a fan of Ms Carol Thatcher but she seems a straightforward honest individual. I have a very different view of Adrian Charles who seems to me to be a narrow minded person from the way he sneakily presents items that he disagrees with. It is reported he raised the Ms Thatcher issue. Why am I not surprised? It does seem to me that the BBC is becoming over burdened with people who do not take a neutral view and now it has got to a point where I am exploding as the political correctness bias is becoming intolerance. Oh for some honest straightforwardness. I am a white, grumpy very old man and if that's what you want to call me, great
Bogoffski
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Quote: Reading the many views above I have to comment that atheists do come across as very angry people with a point to prove??!!
Yeah as oppose to christians who don't have to prove a thing!!
For your information Dr Jim, I'm not an angry person most the time, I'm certainly not angry about being an atheist, I get angry about the injustice of TV reporting sometimes which assumes we all have religious convictions
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p.s with regards to Carol Thatcher....this country has gone 'politically correct' mad!
It's embarassing that something that was said between two people with no racist meaning at all is taken out of all proportion...yet again by the press and people sat at home with nothing better to do!
All of you who have something to say on the matter...were you there? Did you hear her say it with your own ears? NO! so jump back off the bandwagon and do something a bit more constructive with