What did you think of The One Show? Guest: Martin Jarvis
Actor Martin Jarvis joined Adrian and Christine in the studio.
Lucy Siegle met two Muslim women with very different views on wearing a burka, a type of Muslim veil. Do you think schools should allow teachers to wear full-face veils? Share your stories here.
We took a look at some of the artwork you've submitted to The One Show Exhibition (pictured right). More info about the Summer Exhibition here.
Mike Dilger investigated the decline of our wild flowers and met Dominic Price, a man who has devised a plan to try and save them. Download the wild plant ID guide here.
Matt Allwright considered the employability of ex-MPs.
And finally, Phil Tufnell continued our series of celebrating local heroes. He travelled to Southampton to meet Carol Wormull. Carol's dance and drama school raises money for charity and welcomes students from all walks of life.
What did you think of the show?
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~00~RS~)
Comments
The other problem with the female Muslim dress is that it costs the tax payer money through the NHS for the increased cases of rickets.
It's not Islamic, it is cultural.
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Why did Martin Jarvis have to pop in his comment about 'beautiful eyes'? He probably thinks he's being gallant and charming and in the golf clubs of Britain, perhaps he is, but when a woman specifically discourages male admiraion (because she does not want it), it is insulting, patrician and inappropriate to make such a comment. I am a Scottish Presbyterian fifty-ish woman (nothing attractive there then!). I have respect for someone's opinions. I do not agree with the wearing of the veil, because it is alienating, but I think Martin Jarvis summed up why some people may feel they want to wear it.
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Ultimately this is about freedom of choice.
If women have the choice to uncover as much as they like surely they have the choice to cover as much as they want?
Society should not dictate to individuals how they dress and the choices they make.
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I seriously object to being called amoral by this guest essentially for not following her religion! Religion just as much as her clothing is a choice, the fact that I do not choose to blindly follow something that has never been proven and was probably created many years ago to explain natural phenomena and control and oppress the masses does not make me amoral!! The fact that I have chosen to have loving consentual sexual relationships before marriage does not harm anyone else and is completely natural. I do not steal, murder or oppress others off my own back because I believe it's right, not because I'm told I'll go to hell if I don't, so whose's the amoral one!?
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I do agree with your comments about his mentioning her eyes. Perhaps to some degree proved her point that it is a way of avoiding unwanted male attention however well meaning (one assumes). Whilst I do not personally like the idea, or that women should have to cover up completely to avoid that, my perception of freedoms and appropriate cultural behaviour may be different from her's (being english, Anglo/saxon myself) my only thought is that it should be her choice and no one elses.
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hes an idiot. he played in to the hands of your guest in the burka by saying she had nice eyes. i am a gay man who has faught for freedoms on race,etc but this type of dress is not welcome in the uk
it must be banned how can you tell the women have not been abused its
wronge to put young girles in this evil garb
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I know this is really shallow - but it's been bothering us for a long time - but what on earth is Christine thinking when she gets dressed? I'm only hoping her outfits are the idea of some misguided stylist!
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A superb cringeworthy moment from the seasoned charmer Martin Jarvis with 'the eyes' comment. As bad as watching The Office at is worst/best. I nearly choked on my tea. Shame her face was covered. Would loved to have seen her expression!
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Friends in Paris and France in general say they never see a woman in a burka.
Friends in New York say they never see a women in a burka or even a head scarf.
Why is it we see many women dressed in the burka in London, Luton, Milton Keynes, Birmingham and many other towns and cities?
This must be something to do with the Moslem agenda in Britain supported by our New Labour government.
Why do we want the burka in Britain when other Non-Moslem countries with large Moslem populations do without?
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That "beautiful eyes" comment was really cringe worthy.My fiance and I burst out laughing,especially when the lady said "oh dear" and pulled her covering even further over her eyes.Martin Jarvis will probably be very embarrassed if he watches it back.He did seem to play right into the debate!
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I was horrified with Martin Jarvis' comment to the woman wearing the burqa!! It was the most cringetastic moment on tv for a long time. Talk about cultural faux-pas!! The whole reason some women of Islam choose to wear the garment is to protect their beauty and dignity from idiots like him. I agree with Lesarge, definately an Office moment. I found it offensive and I'm not even religious in any way!
What a prat!
LOL-OCOPTERS!
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If I visit or choose to live in a foreign country, I am expected to avoid offence by adhering to their dress and moral codes. I have no more to say other than I thought I lived in a Christian country, and I would appreciate the same considerations, whether from visitors or immigrants.
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While Martin Jarvis wears no socks
Fatima hides her pretty locks
And not only her hair either
You wont see her arms or legs neither
Or any other part of her
She choose not to ever bare
Anything except her eyes
Thats likely to excite the guys
She doesnt believe in emancipation
Of women, but not through coercion
Does she dress from head to toe
Or through any other stricture, no
To Lucy Siegles consternation
She said her veil brought liberation
My guess is that this One Show topic
Will show just how much were myopic
When it comes to others ways
Love and let live
Is what I say
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Women should wear what they are comfortable in as long as it is their own choice, however, the lady in the burka said it was her own choice, then went on to say that it was what her creator wanted her to wear, why would God tell her to do that? I've not read the koran, but I bet it doesn't say women's faces should not be seen, someone correct me if I'm wrong, more likely its something jealous husbands made up many years ago and added it into their scriptures, in Britain when we talk to someone, we are watching facial expressions, which help us to determine if the other person is genuine or not, when in Rome do as the Romans do.
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What is wrong with your One Show online artwork application form? Three times I have chosen the file I wish to submit and then I have completed all the details on the form including ticking the 'yes I've read the rules' box, but each time when I click on 'upload' the button turns white but nothing happens except the 'Error on page' sign is displayed.
Can you let me know when this is sorted out?
Posh Brittain
david_brittain@tiscal.co.uk
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geordieangel2, this morning I happened to be listening to a religious leader of this lady's faith who stated that nowhere in the Koran is the face covering stipulated. I have never considered myself to be racist, but this constant need of Muslims to set themselves apart from our ways makes me understand how racism is fostered, in fact I sometimes worry that I am becoming less than understanding, and I now understand, to some degree, racism!
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jadedoldie when a group of people set themselves apart, there are bound to be misunderstandings on both sides, but when I was working, myself,and others from different countries, and different religions we were all thrown in together and and left to get on with it, we all got on O/K, and we became friends, its religion and governments who are the problem. I am now climbing down off my high horse, and saying night all.
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Goodnight geordieangel2, and by the way my best mate is Muslim.
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Hi, this is Fatima from the show today.
Though I enjoyed my experience (and was totally not expecting Martin Jarvis's comment!!), the nature and speed of the show is such that it is pretty much impossible to really explain yourself properly in the short length of time you have....so although Lucy did an hours interview with me...they had to cut it down to a few seconds and the live interview was very short too and some questions that Christine was going to ask me had to be cut short because of Martin's..er..interjections.
So I hope I can try and maybe increase understanding of the issue here perhaps...will comment on some of the comments above soon.
Fatima
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"Would loved to have seen her expression!"
I was really surprised but all I could do was cringe and smile!
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I have read the comments tonight with interest, e.g. jadedoldie/geordieangel. Yes, she went on to say that her 'creator' told her to do it. This sums up religion of any type for me. Also - yes, the Qur'an would appear not to say a number of things that many media items would have us believe.
Re 4 - agree completely. This has been covered before on The One Show - some people equate e.g. atheism with complete amorality, which never goes down well with me, as one. Remember Adrian's remark some months ago along the lines of how can there be any goodness if one does not believe, during Anita Rani's item. Adrian - you never apologised for this either.
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Just read 19 & 20. Thanks for your comments Fatima. And I think we all were rather gobsmacked by Martin's remark!
I wish more guests would appear on these blogs as it can often shed some light on the situations involved.
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Yes...I just don't feel the full picture was conveyed on the show because it is so fast moving!
About the morality thing:
I wasn't saying this society as a whole is immoral! What I was trying to say was that if you take one aspect of anyone's way of life and scrutinize it, it looks odd. But if you look at it in the context of the Way of Life as a whole...you can understand it better. And I wanted to say that I believe that there is a purpose to our lives. We aren't here without a purpose...and I believe that there is a Creator and the Creator has given us a complete way of life by which to live our lives which I am convinced is Islam. So any laws He gives us are going to be for our own good. They are going to contribute to and be conducive to building a strong moral society. That's all I was trying to say.
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I threatened my wife with a burka but she replied that she wasn't worried because I was bound to get the wrong size.
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Re 23:
You are entitled to say what you hsve said, of course. From my ramblings above you will obviously see that I am not a believer with regard to any religion. We can agree to disagree. But I do beileve that when you speak of a creator who you believe has given you this way, which you believe to be the right way, therein lies the problem, or great potential for serious and tragic problems. I'm not saying of course this applies to you personally, but surely, we have seen through history (with all religions), certain individuals who believe in a similar doctrine to an extent that other doctrines are immoral and are then necessarily a target for destructive actions.
I think that if anyone does not act in such a way as to deny the rights & freedoms of others, then we are a better, freer society.
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gaz911 & geordie angel - congrats on getting your comments read out on the One Show Web Show No. 5 which I've just watched (No. 6 is also now available) regarding Adrian's dancing and the decreasing size of chocolate bars respectively!!
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By the way:
Yasmin AliBhai Brown's comments on the show are something I want to address properly here. She is a very ignorant woman when it comes to Islam and has a lot of anger inside her as was clear from the TV show.
Covering your face while bathing your baby:
She said something along the lines of...that we cover ourselves in front of our babies!!!
How ridiculous and ignorant of her. Women who wear the face-veil only do so outside of their homes and when in the presence of men who are not closely related to them...not in front of children and other women.
I wear very 'normal' clothing at home and amongst my family and female company....jeans, indian clothing, whatever I want. So for Yasmin to imply that we cover whether in hijab, niqab or burka or whatever in front of our children totally shows her ignorance on the issue.
We have female only parties and gatherings and we dress up. I go to the hairdressers, I wear make up...but just not for the whole world to see.
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Hi Fatima.
I think Martin Jarvis was trying to be nice to you in the best way he thought possible, but he went the wrong way about it.
In his defence though, you are probably the first veiled woman he has had a conversation with. He is unlikely to have had a conversation with another veiled woman, and also you are unlikely to have had conversations with men whom are not your family. (Unless of course related to work for both you and him).
Wrt to your comment about laws given to us by a creator (Allah PBUH), was it not the case that Allah converesed with Mohammed and laws are based upon these conversations between the two, and subsequent conversation between those whom follow him that hold the highest ranks in the Mosque over the past 1400 years
I know many muslim women whom wear hijab, but not abaya/burka. They all have said that they need to cover themsleves except for the hands/face.
As I understand it, in Islam we are all free to live our lives in whatever way we please, even if immoral, but in the afterlife we are judged.
Not being a subscriber to religon myself I believe 'we are free to live our lives how we want, but the way in which we live them, will be reflected upon by how our peers judge us'.
(Might come across as a bit of a strange post and I ain't having a dig at religon, as even though I am athiest I am pro religion, as I think it promotes morality and that can only be a good thing)
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Fatima100, thank you for joining us on the blog, I don't think the show is long enough to discuss things in any depth, I wish more guests would join in on the blog, some wear the burka, some do not, so they must be able to choose, I don't know if you are married or not, but if you have daughters, will you let them make a choice about waring a burka, or will they feel they have let their parents down if they choose not to wear it. does the Koran tell you to wear the burka, or is it a moral issue, I don't mean to be rude in any way, but we Christians don't often get the chance to ask Muslims about religion, I use the term Christians loosely, as I am not a very religious person, but I do believe in a peaceful society, which is what we all want don't we? I think you are brave to face up to all these questions, so thanks for blogging.
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jadedoldie, my best friend was Jamaican, but she moved away and we lost touch, she was a laugh a minute, with loads of energy, I am just the opposite, and yet we got on.
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does Yasmin Alibhai Brown identify as a Muslim? Is is her Islam just nominal? I can't understand, if she is an adherent to the Islamic faith, why she is so constantly critical and negative about it. (and can appear to comprehend so little of the faith as to make such outrageous comments that a mother would be expected to cover her face whilst bathing her own child.) sometimes I feel she is just wheeled out, when the media wants a sound bite against Islam from a "Muslim"
I thought that another poster misrepresented the comments from the other lady, Reefat Drabu, who was from the Muslim Council of Britain. (MCB). I thought Reefat Drabu's attitude was very positive in her answer to "Would you be disappointed if your daughters took on burqa?" when she said "if it was her choice, then no problem"
That's the thing:- it should be the individual's choice whether to wear hijaab, niqaab or Burqa, and not forced on them.
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HappyHijaabi, if a young girl chose not to wear traditional dress, would it make any difference to her marriage prospects, her future in laws may prefer a more traditional Daughter in law, so she may think it wiser to be traditional, even though she would like to wear western styles.
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It would seem that the burka wearers have their priorities confused.
I would have thought that this garment could be worn in private and socially but not during the working day of the female who insists on wearing the so called traditioal costume.
This would scare off many customers in Waitrose or any other working environment.
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Fatima, whilst it appears that you respect other people's choice to wear what they want and claim that you simply request the same choice, you clearly do not respect some girls' decisions to wear certain types of clothing, and neither do I.
That is all fine. I respect, and would defend strongly, your choice to wear the niqab. However, I don't respect your decision to wear it, but am puzzled why you expect me to. It seems like double standards to me.
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In reply to your questions Geordieangel:
Q:"I don't know if you are married or not, but if you have daughters, will you let them make a choice about waring a burka, or will they feel they have let their parents down if they choose not to wear it."
A:Well, yes I am married and my husband came to the studio with me. I don't wear the face-veil because I believe it is an obligation. I wear it because I prefer to in certain situations. I would not force anything onto my children. I would discuss things with them and would want them to do things for their convictions and for God, not for me.
Q:"does the Koran tell you to wear the burka, or is it a moral issue, I don't mean to be rude in any way, but we Christians don't often get the chance to ask Muslims about religion,"
A: Please feel free to ask questions..."Questions are the key to knowledge" as the Arabic saying goes...
Many Muslim women do regard covering the face to be an obligation because that it one of the Orthodox interpretations of the Qur'anic verse about 'the outer garment' or 'jilbab' (which is command in the Qur'an)
Chapter 33 Verse 59 says (this is the meaning as the Qur'an is in the original Arabic and translations cannot do justice to it):
'O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the Believers to draw their jalabib (plural of jilbab) close around them (when they are in the presence of men who are not closely related to them); that is better that they will be recognized and not molested. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle.
The Jilbab, mentioned in this verse is an outer garment that covers everything but the face and hands that we are required to wear outside of the home. Orthodox scholars differed as to whether that included the face or not. However it is an Orthodox opinion held by male and female scholars of Islam throughout the ages and many women hold to that opinion and they have a right to do so.
Other women would like to cover their faces because great women throughout history like the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did so...they are their role models. But essentially it is an act of devotion, that extra bit of modesty when women are out and about and it is done to please God and no one else. So yes, the face-veil being in the Qur'an is one of the Orthodox interpretations of a verse in the Qur'an.
The thing is...does it matter to you if it is in the Qur'an or not? Isn't the issue here that a woman should be allowed to do it if she wishes, as long as it doesn't harm society? Isn't it her human right to do so?
FB
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To 'peelea' who said: "Fatima, whilst it appears that you respect other people's choice to wear what they want and claim that you simply request the same choice, you clearly do not respect some girls' decisions to wear certain types of clothing, and neither do I."
I am against exploitation of women in all its forms. I think that far more women in our society are forced to take their clothes OFF then put the burkah on! Yes I think it is sad that women are used as sex-objects more than ever before in history...women forced into prostitution, women pressured to starve themselves to be stick thin to fit in with the pressures of fashion...that is oppressive. Every part of a woman's body is commodotised in the Capitalist consumer society. Just take a look at MTV...women are just bodies for swaying and alluring men, even if the male singer is ugly as anything, he has to have some women in his video dancing and showing off their bodies.
I was at the gym the other day (womens only gym! And I wasn't wearing my outer garb before you ask me!) and I saw a sports mag where every month they have a full page photo of a female sports star in her underwear. The tennis player who was photographed in her lingerie was saying in the article: "One day I hope women don't have to do this (ie pose virtually naked for men) in order to raise our profiles."
Now you tell me who is being pressured there?
True liberation of women will be when they are judged for their skills, personalities, words, the content of their character, not for the way they look.
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Fatima100, thank you for that explanation, if we do not ask we will never learn.
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Your welcome...the short answer to your question is this:
Yes it is one of the Orthodox interpretations of the Qur'an held by scholars throughout the ages and many Muslim women believe in it being an obligation and have the right to do so. And any way, whether it's in the Qur'an or not....isn't it her right to dress like that if she wishes?
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I meant you're welcome! Not 'your'.
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To tom3t02...I don't know where you are getting your info about Islam from but...what you said isn't at all accurate. I will try and address some of the points/questions over the next few days.
Please bear with me.
Fatima
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Martin Jarvis gave a very British comment given the circumstances. Since he was in Britain at the time I cant see why this should be a problem.
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(13. above, less typos)
While Martin Jarvis wears no socks
Fatima hides her pretty locks
And not only her hair either
You won't see her arms or legs neither
Or any other part of her
She chooses not to ever bare
Anything except her eyes
That's likely to excite the guys
She doesn't believe in emancipation
Of women, but not through coercion
Does she dress from head to toe
Or through any other stricture, no
To Lucy Siegle's consternation
She said her veil brought liberation
My guess is that this One Show topic
Will show just how much we're myopic
When it comes to other's ways
Live and let live
Is what I say
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Fatima, you haven't answered my question. Whilst I respect your choice, why should I have to respect your decision if I don't agree with it?
Moving on to your other points it seems odd that you bemoan woman becoming "commodotised in the Capitalist consumer society", on the day that my elderly parents have just made to comment to me in the town centre on a hot sunny day that boys and girls dress the same these days. Jeans and t-shirts or similar is very much the common clothing of the young, and the numbers of unisex clothing shops are increasing.
To be honest I'm in my 50s, I have a son and a daughter, and I have seen a such improvements in society that I actually think my daughter and her friends have more confidence and choices in life than my son and his friends. The burqa or niqab are sad threats to this progress imho, and I am pleased that the Muslim feminists in France recognise this.
Besides, if you really believe that the burqa, niqab or hijab are helpful in the quest towards women's liberation, how do you explain the frightening increase in sexual crimes against women in Egypt as this clothing has become more common?
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Fatima100
You are obsessed with sexual morality whereas the sanctity of life itself is far more important together with respect and love for your fellow human beings.
This is the real morality. The burka is remote from all these things.
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The matter of whether we should ban the burka is largely an academic issue, and is no more that a symptom of where our society is going as a whole.
The French have proposed banning it, and good luck to them. You may also recall they also proposed purging their language of words/phrases which are overtly English, to re-establish a more pure French vocabulary. Again, good luck to them. Irrespective of the practical reasoning for these moves, the French are proud of their culture and seek to protect it. Again, good luck to them.
In this country, half hearted objections have been raised to the burka, on practical grounds (eg can't see the face, lack of communication, security etc), but that it is worn at all is the real issue, and that these "objections", though of some merit individually, do not address the real, fundamental issue.
The political ruling class have knowingly created a problem (mass immigration) on which they have, over recent years, been forced to legislate to suppress free debate of any sort. This failed policy has admitted criminal, feuding & fanatical elements into my country in the teeth of any reasoned objection.
As a result, we have seen the proliferation of "discrimination" cases/examples in the media, eg appeals against school uniform policy, the wearing of religious symbols, "Fatwahs" on authors [writers or cartoonists], stage productions, mosques wishing to trumpet the call to prayer over English towns, the existence of UK sharia courts, and, I believe from some quarters, that right to perform ritual cremation on the banks of the Thames is being sought. The list is constantly being added to.
It is fair to say that English identity is being systematically undermined, ...a bit here, ...a bit there, to an extent that is historically unprecedented. Reasonable objection is suppressed by the customary cliche'd accusations of "-ism" this, "-ist" that, and "race" the other from the implacable fanatics of the liberal-left.
Our long standing belief in "Religious freedom" is given as justification, but this is nowadays no more that a Trojan Horse that is allowing alien creed & culture unchecked and unchallenged into my country...and yours as well. We are constantly being told that "we should move with the times"; Well I say that some of our historical tolerances must be reviewed to "move with the times":
Consider this: Such tolerances developed over the centuries, when overseas recipients of such tolerances derived from the ebb & flow of european wars, when, by their very nature, channel crossings were limited . Now we have a tunnel, and a jumbo jet lands at Heathrow every 60 seconds, bringing...well, work it out for yourself.
Hence we are at risk of import of people who at best may be quite law abiding, hardworking and pay their taxes etc, but national short term economic gain is not the point. It is their political, racial and religious baggage (religious baggage which to some [?most?] recognises no allegiance other than to Allah) that comes with them. That they are reluctant to, or have no intention of, accepting our culture is the point. Except when it suits, perhaps.
So this brings us back to the rights and wrongs of burkas. Lets not mince words. This is just indicative of a problem that politicians refuse to grasp, and which represents only the tip of the issue.
I have no problem with religious freedom as such, as long as it is not abused, and is retained within a "North European" context. However, the wearing of a burka is a clear and unambiguous statement of separateness and rejection of english values and culture. So much for "When in Rome...."
We have, in common with other countries, fought to maintain our way of life and culture, but are those very freedoms we fought to maintain really to be surrendered and used against us?
Until politicians grasp the scale of the problem, or the people say "Enough!" and they are forced to act, then the burkah will continue to flaunt separateness and a rejection of our traditions.
Accordingly, I take it as a personal insult when I see a burka being worn (in the context of the proliferating numbers currently prevailing), and is basically just construed two-fingers to all of us.
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45
Your posting does you credit and articulates the reality of the situation.
Why is the burka so prominent in England and not in France or North America for example where there is also a significant Muslim population in Non-Muslim countries.
The reason is that the Muslims in our country have an agenda and strategy to promote and demonstrate their religion within England and this is supported by the New Labour government.
The burka is only one aspect of this strategy but never the less an important one.
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BEING A MOTORCYCLIST I REGULARLY FIND MY SELF HAVING TO REMOVE MY CRASH HELMET WHEN ENTERING BANKS, SHOPPING CENTRES, POST OFFICES ETC. I AM TOLD THAT THIS IS FOR SECURITY REASONS. I COULD BE WRONG BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THESE SAME RULES ARE APPLIED TO PEOPLE WEARING BURKAS OR SIMILAR FACIAL COVERS. IT SEEMS TO IMPLY THAT I, AS A MOTORCYCLIST, AM SOME KIND OF SECURITY RISK (I CAN ONLY ASSURE ANYONE READING THIS THAT I AM NOT) BUT SOME ONE WEARING A BURKA IS NOT. SURELY THIS IS DISCRIMINATION.
ONE OTHER THING I AM CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A PERSON WEARING A BURKA GOES ON HOLIDAY AND HAS TO NEGOTIATE THEIR WAY THROUGH PASSPORT CONTROL, DOES ANY KNOW?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
stupendousbuilderjon, I am not saying I agree with you or not, but I admire your bravery saying exactly what you think, in today's Britain we are afraid to say anything that may be looked on as racism.
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The purpose of the burka these days is to draw attention to the wearer. Personally, I don't much care whether a woman wears a burka or not. Providing the decision to do so is entirely her decision. Wearing a burka is her custom. It is my custom to avoid speaking or dealing with anyone wearing a burka. Let each of us look to their customs.
I have lived and worked in several Muslim countries where the burka was hardly ever seen. Curiously, the burka is more prevalent in UK. This is possibly because of the strong Wahhabi presence and influence in this county.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref post #50:
"Strong Wahhabi presence and influence in this county"
Hmmm.......not sure I want to live with influences such as this.
Do you?
What, and who is it, do you suppose, that they want to influence?
Parliament?
The executive?
The judiciary?
Is "Influence" what I am led to believe their creed demands, to subvert all other forms of, or take precedence over, other forms of religion?
Hmmm.....scary............
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I am still confused as to why people of religions not indigenous to this country seem hell bent on adopting practices designed to be divisive?
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Fatima100 from what you say you are only liberated when you are in a women only clubs and beaches. Do you prefer womens company to mens?
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I thought the item of the burkha and face mask was weak and pathetic. It was obvious that the woman interviwer was restrained and the show pandered to the Muslim woman it was all too nicey nicey
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Re: robertbridget's remark:"You are obsessed with sexual morality whereas the sanctity of life itself is far more important together with respect and love for your fellow human beings.
This is the real morality."
No, not obsessed with sexual morality...it is just one aspect of morality and affects society in a huge way. In a society where sexual promiscuity is the norm, you see high rates of abortion, rape, adultery, broken homes, broken lives, absent fathers, male children growing up without a role model, prostituition, children who don't know who their fathers are or what their identity is.
Britain and the U.S. have more broken families than other countries, and our families are less cohesive in the way they live and eat together. British children are rougher with each other, and live more riskily in terms of alcohol, drugs and teenage pregnancy. And they are less inclined to stay in education. This comes against a background of much greater income inequality: many more children live in relative poverty in Britain and the U.S. The Childrens Society report February 2009 'A Good Childhood: Searching for Values in a Competitive Age
Approximately 47,000 rapes occur every year in the U.K. according to the Fawcett Society.
So sexual morality is important I think. It affects the sanctity of life. These things are interrelated.
It is however just one part of a whole system and way of life. We are not obsessed by it...it is the media who insist on questioning and talking to us about it constantly...believe me, we'd rather talk about other things, but because the burkah is in the news so much, that is all we are called upon to talk about!
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To susanah302 re: "Fatima100 from what you say you are only liberated when you are in a women only clubs and beaches. Do you prefer womens company to mens?"
No, I feel liberated from worshipping or being a slave to my desires, whims, or other human beings because true liberation comes from worshipping your Creator alone. That is true liberation.
I feel liberated by that all the time. In order to be successful in this life, I want to live my life as my Creator has commanded us to.
When I am with my family, and female friends, I dress as I wish and no, I do not socialise with men who are not closely related to me nor do I desire to. Neither does my husband socialise with women who are not closely related to him...we are very close and are best friends and have a wonderful marriage and family.
We don't have to paint our faces every morning (although I love make-up), don't have to show off our bodies to feel good about ourselves. My husband loves me and finds me attractive and that is good enough for me...I'm not seeking validation from society.
What about all those girls starving themselves, or going through plastic surgery to fit a model of beauty that they are pressured to fit into? What about the fact that the self-esteem and perception of self-image of women and girls is at an all time low? What about that pressure and brainwashing?
I went to a girls school in London, where the girls were under constant pressure to lose their virginity and my best friend who was a beautiful English girl would cry on my shoulder because of the taunts she got from boys and girls for being rather flat chested. She didn't want to have sex so young, but was pressured into it. There were countless girls in the same situation. 13 year olds doing sexual favours for boys after school...a girl who had an abortion...so much pressure...with a lasting effect.
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This was a quote by the way, not me saying it:
"Britain and the U.S. have more broken families than other countries, and our families are less cohesive in the way they live and eat together. British children are rougher with each other, and live more riskily in terms of alcohol, drugs and teenage pregnancy. And they are less inclined to stay in education. This comes against a background of much greater income inequality: many more children live in relative poverty in Britain and the U.S."
The Childrens Society report February 2009 'A Good Childhood: Searching for Values in a Competitive Age
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Fatima100, I just wonder how you can bring yourself to live among us,as I get the definite impression you are not impressed by the British way of life. However you would still prefer that we are comfortable with your beliefs and what are to us, alien customs!
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Stupendousbuilderjohn you have hit the nail right on the head all this H.R. and P.C. is taking away the right to express ones true feeling with out being stigmatised as a racist, yet the muslim preacher of hate can call Sarkosys wife a prostitute all because he spoke up about banning the burkha in France. and nothing done its all one way
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Fatima100 I will agree with you that not every thing about the uk is perfect by a long way, but a religion with archaic laws isn't going to put things right in the uk
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Re: jadedoldie's comment:"Fatima100, I just wonder how you can bring yourself to live among us,as I get the definite impression you are not impressed by the British way of life. However you would still prefer that we are comfortable with your beliefs and what are to us, alien customs!"
& peelea's comment: "Fatima, you haven't answered my question. Whilst I respect your choice, why should I have to respect your decision if I don't agree with it?"
Whatever I've said above is only being said in response to people's questions/comments. I didn't initiate this debate. I was going about my business when this story came into the news.
We don't expect to be respected for what we wear. But we do expect to be left to wear what we want to wear on a day-to-day basis...because I was born and brought up here. This is my country. Yes, it is my country. There are many things I love about it. But the BBC don't phone me and ask me to come onto the show to tell everyone what I love about this country. They phone me up about the Burka, so I come and speak about it and defend my right to wear it. I'd much rather talk about what I love about Britain. I love the English language...the best modern language on Earth. I love the English countryside. I love Wales, I love the National Parks. I love London with its history and architecture. I love the English sense of humour. I love the fact that I've had so much opportunity to learn and study in my country and met so many wonderful teachers and mentors and friends along the way. My brother-in-law (sister's husband) is English! Yes a white Englishman who became a Muslim years ago. So I have English relatives.
Most of the women I know who wear the face-veil when they go out are...wait for it...white English Muslims (who converted to Islam) or Black converts! Yes! So I know that many people may have seen the colour of my skin and thought...immigrant. But what about them? Their ancestors have been here for centuries. They (the white Muslims)are 'natives'. If they chose Islam and then decided to wear the hijab or niqab...what will you do to them?
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In answer to JUST-MY-OPINION's question, who said: "BEING A MOTORCYCLIST I REGULARLY FIND MY SELF HAVING TO REMOVE MY CRASH HELMET WHEN ENTERING BANKS, SHOPPING CENTRES, POST OFFICES ETC. I AM TOLD THAT THIS IS FOR SECURITY REASONS. I COULD BE WRONG BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THESE SAME RULES ARE APPLIED TO PEOPLE WEARING BURKAS OR SIMILAR FACIAL COVERS. IT SEEMS TO IMPLY THAT I, AS A MOTORCYCLIST, AM SOME KIND OF SECURITY RISK (I CAN ONLY ASSURE ANYONE READING THIS THAT I AM NOT) BUT SOME ONE WEARING A BURKA IS NOT. SURELY THIS IS DISCRIMINATION.
ONE OTHER THING I AM CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A PERSON WEARING A BURKA GOES ON HOLIDAY AND HAS TO NEGOTIATE THEIR WAY THROUGH PASSPORT CONTROL, DOES ANY KNOW?"
Well...usually you just show your face and ID to a female member of staff. That's all. This has been happening for decades. Some of the Muslim countries have many more security checks then here and you just show your face to a female member of staff...if a female member of staff wasn't present then you could show your face to a male member of staff and then move on.
There is a difference between individual situations where a woman may need to show her face and banning it outright. Of course when there is a genuine need or policy, then Muslim women can uncover their face or as with the case with the lady visiting the school...if they choose not to uncover their faces they can leave. Then they have the choice.
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I mean 'than here' not 'then here'. I hate mistakes in English and grammar!
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Re: your poem KingFrugal:
It is cool. Really clever. But I object to the line:
"She doesnt believe in emancipation
Of women,"
I do believe in emancipation of women, but just not in the same way as you maybe. So please change that line. You could say "She doesn't believe in exploitation of women."
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Also this line is innacurate:
"She chooses not to ever bare"
It's only when women go out or are in the presence of men that they wear the hijab or niqab etc. Not all of the time.
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Re: your comment sky_viewer: "But I do beileve that when you speak of a creator who you believe has given you this way, which you believe to be the right way, therein lies the problem, or great potential for serious and tragic problems. I'm not saying of course this applies to you personally, but surely, we have seen through history (with all religions), certain individuals who believe in a similar doctrine to an extent that other doctrines are immoral and are then necessarily a target for destructive actions."
I don't believe other Ways of life are immoral. I believe that in their original form, they came from God but over time the messages have been corrupted. If you believe in a Creator, you must believe that that Creator wouldn't just leave you without purpose and direction right? The Creator would guide you. I believe that the Creator did send guidance many times to many different people and the final communication that was sent down by the Creator was the Qur'an...meant for all human beings.
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re #52: stupendousbuilderjon, They crave and seek the Caliphate.
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re #56: Fatima 100, Of course under Sharia law rape is almost impossible to prove. Consequently,the woman is invariably found guilty by a panel of men on some trumped up sexual crime and severely punished accordingly. That explains why there are so few reported incidents of rape in those countries. But there is rape and plenty of it in the villages. However, it mostly goes unpunished.
Personally, I trust more the judeo christian ethic on which our customs and secular law are based. I feel safer there.
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With the greatest respect Fatima100, this may be where you were born and brought up , but it is still a Christian country. We have a monarch who is the Defender of the Faith, we have British or Western dress, and we have British idiosyncrasies, however you still wish to cherrypick which aspects of the British way of life you adopt.This courtesy is not generally applied in Muslim countries, and could be the cause of resentment here.
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The Koran does teach respect for the customs and religions of others. But this is conveniently ignored by those seeking power through the reestablishment of the caliphate. The only enemy of their endeavor is reason. Islam needs to go through its own Enlightenment. When this happens we will all stand the chance of living together peaceably.
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By the way. Some people are asking, what my reaction to the Martin Jarvis comment was...I know he meant well and he was just trying to be nice. But it was a bit embarassing because I wasn't expecting it. That's all. We met Martin after the show and he was very polite. My husband simply joked with him, "don't worry Martin I won't be asking you to step outside!" And everything was fine.
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Fatima100 just for an instance your in your own house alone and you were dressed like you said you do in the house and a knock came on your door could be a postman or council official or even police would you have to run and put the burkha on to answer the door?
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To susanah302:
Yes Susanah, just as some women would wear a dressing gown to answer the door if she were in her nightwear, I would probably say "just a minute!" and quickly get a very simple overgarment on that covered almost all of my body before answering the door.
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Re 65: "I hate mistakes in English and grammar!"
Fatima - they were only typos anyway. I wish more people had your command of language and could put things so eloquently. I share your views on this subject at least!
Re 68: Yes, this is how you feel and this is fine, but I was commenting on the more general dangers of misuse which cannot be denied (see also John Holyer - post 72 - which ties in with my comments in post 25).
Re 73: Yes - I think we would all agree that Martin really meant no harm; he just put his foot in it. I don't think many can say they haven't done the same thing on occasion, and I wouldn't expect him to be anything other than how you describe him.
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Ref post #69
In other words, an Islamic government?
Hmmmmm............even more scary......
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Dear Fatima100 Thats where we differ if I was in jeans or skirt and top in the house I wouldnt cover up and definitely not my face to answer the door.As I am proud of my feminity and you obviously are not. so go on living your life, but in this century,open up your mind, lighten up, dont be like a horse in blinkers.
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Hmmm, Susanah. What's the big deal? We just have a different understanding of modesty. I guess it is about what you're used to.
I'm very proud of my femininity. You don't know me remember. Muslim women in private are very different to what you might like to think we are. We have a very strong sisterhood...we truly feel like sisters to each other even if we are not related, even if we are from different races and cultural backgrounds. It's really beautiful to see and experience. If you ever came to my house when my friends are around, or if you came to a Muslim wedding...your jaw would drop. You would find, wonderful, feminine women, some very fashion conscious, dressed in high-street fashions, others into their traditional Indian, Indonesian, African, beautifully embellished outfits, complete with make-up and jewellery. I know you would like to think we are these cardboard cut-outs, but like I said on the programme, there is a side to our lives you don't get to see. I don't see why that seems to be getting on your nerves so much.
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Without peradventure a movement exists within Islam to reestablish the Caliphate. The Caliphate was a religious dictatorship.
Within our country, dangerously, there are those of all faiths and no faith who will permit this movement to succeed. This will be because they are purblind to its consequences. Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, who knew a thing or two about revolution and the running of a dictatorship, called such people "useful idiots". He placed great value on them. History proved him right. In the UK we rightly proclaim and defend tolerance and the freedom of an individual to worship as they please. But there are those among us who erroneously regard such tolerance as a weakness which they can exploit to further there selfish cause. They will fail as others have done before them. However, We can speed their failure if we ensure that we are not one of their useful idiots. I will not rise to the bait of the burka.
Islam is one the world's great religions. But it needs it own Enlightenment.
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Some further reading:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3641016/That-Muslim-woman-could-be-happier-than-you....html
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And because I have exams and stuff to study for and can't reply to each question or issue raised above, here are some more links about Islam in general, as some people on this blog asked some questions:
http://scienceislam.com/
http://whatsislam.com/
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And to do with women:
The Elevation of Women in Islam:
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/women_elevation.
How Islam took me by surprise (a British female convert speaks)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4400228.ece
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And lastly I would like to apologise if my tone in any of the posts above was less than polite. I guess sometimes that the way in which people approach this subject makes one feel one constantly has to defend and explain and prove. Forgive me for any offense. I know this won't be the last time these issues are raised....
Until next time!
Fatima
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what an interesting discussion with a wide variety of views-we do value the right of people to dress as they choose in our multi-cultural society but I think it is fair to point out;
1. Business people who travel widely say that the Burka is very rarely seen even in devout Muslim countries-one person said that you see more burkas in Dewsbury than Islamabad
2. Custom in this country dictates that when shopping you bump your trolley into someone elses-both people apologise and smile even though one person is usually to blame-its good manners-on a number of occasions I have bumped into a person wearing a burka and have been unable to assess the response-silence may be due to language difficulties but without any facial expression to engage with it does make you feel annoyed.
3 beautiful day locally today and university graduation is taking place-lots of muslim women with family collecting their degrees and being photographed-and lo and behold burkas are being worn with the facial part missing so the graduates can be identified-Muslims are valued members of our society but I do sometimes think they want the best of both worlds
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I have loved reading through all these comments, very entertaining. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and whereas I can take on board Fatama's ideals don't find her convincing. In fact she started off friendly and got preachier and preachier as her posts went on. I personally distrust on sight anyone wearing anything covering their faces. This goes for burka's and hoodies!. In Scotland we come accross less radical expressions of culture than in England so probably react differently. In our culture we like to see and interact with faces not masks. In Fatama's comments her distate for all things British were pretty obvious and beggers the obvious question!! At least in the UK we don't decapitate, stone, hang, flog suspected, convicted or otherwise persons. I think that puts us head (excuse the pun) and shoulders above islamic countries.
Thats my rant over with..........and as for typos.......who the hell cares??
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