Changes to international pages (4)
Post categories: BBC News website
| 17:23 UK time, Friday, 3 July 2009
Hello. Here's an update on the recent changes in access to the UK and international front pages of the website which have been the subject of several previous posts (10 June, 15 June and 19 June) and lots of comments and queries.
There are two main things to say:
First, the project team has gone through your feedback over the past week and given replies to specific queries, which are further down this post. They have also compiled a Help page of FAQs which will cover many of the questions you've asked and pull all the answers together in one place.
Second, while we understand the annoyance and frustration many of you feel about the removal of the option to switch between UK and international versions of the site, we won't be restoring it at this point in the site's development. Why? Please read on:
We're working on other ways to open up the range of choices about what you can read and watch, wherever you are on the site, as part of an overall review of the site's design, including both index and story pages.
But, for now, after considering all the options and all your feedback, the separation of editions based on IP addresses really does still look to us like the most viable approach to a whole set of technical, design and editorial challenges which we face as we develop the website and improve it for both UK and international audiences.
Here are the main reasons again:
• we have an unusual requirement when it comes to developing the BBC website: it carries advertising internationally but not in the UK, and we have to build and design for both these situations simultaneously
• the site carries advertising internationally so that UK licence fee payers don't cover international costs
• some content on the site is available in the UK but not internationally, notably certain rights-restricted video
• up to now, we have had: a UK edition without ads, a UK edition with ads, an international edition with ads and an international edition without ads, all in addition to some content which is visible in the UK but not internationally
• managing all those combinations within our existing design framework had become impractical as well as expensive and, critically, had started to affect our ability to find the best ways of improving a whole range of other things in the months ahead
Your frank comments over the last few weeks have given us a lot to think about. We are making some immediate changes to the international-facing site, such as the addition of specific UK content like the UK Your Money section on the international business pages and a broader selection of UK and international topics to the Have your Say pages.
We're also investigating whether we can introduce the postcode local personalisation box onto the UK index of the international edition.
But although the UK and world headlines are all there on both versions of the site, we now know how much many of you miss the ability to choose which front page to look at. That's something we are taking on board as we look at how we continue to develop the site.
Now here are some more of your specific queries answered, and the project team which have answered them is busy working on a full FAQs page incorporating these and all the others, which will be available soon.
In the meantime, if you have specific questions which we haven't answered yet, please send them to this Help inbox, which the team will monitor, so that they can reply and add any new replies to the rest, and make them easy to find in one place: SiteVersionsFeedback@bbc.co.uk
Local UK content
User andyrocky in Denver, Colorado, wrote that the UK News page provided him with a valuable link to his old home, and wanted to see the weather and local news in Birmingham, as well as Aston Villa headlines.
We are still investigating whether the personalisation box, which is on the UK front page, can be added to the international version of the site. In the meantime, comprehensive local news for regions around the country is available in the UK section and subsections of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
News of Aston Villa and other English and Scottish clubs is available in the My Club section of BBC Sport.
The BBC Weather pages allow you to search for a town in the UK by name or postcode and to set the location as a default forecast.
UK-based users seeing the international version
We have resolved many of the problems experienced by users in the UK using the AOL browser who were being served the wrong edition. AOL has provided the BBC with a range of proxies used by its subscribers and we now recognise those users as being UK-based.
Some UK users, however, are occasionally routed via proxies outside this range. This is outside our control and appears to occur only within the AOL browser - not on other browsers. This should not mean that users outside the UK will see the UK version, which was a concern raised in the 19 June post. However, the routing policy used by AOL is within its control alone.
Some BBC News category pages are not appearing to AOL users even though they can see the UK edition. We are working with AOL to determine whether this is a caching issue within the AOL browser.
UK-based users seeing the international version at work
Many e-mailers and blog commenters said that they worked for companies in the UK but were seeing the international version of the site in their offices. This is because companies route their internet traffic through servers outside the UK.
It is not possible for the BBC to distinguish which users within a company are based within the UK and which are outside, and although those affected will be able to access the same stories as before, employees of companies who use international servers will continue to see the international version of our news pages. Users on international proxies, which make up less than 1% of overall usage, should not be served advertising, and anyone seeing advertising in the UK should contact us using this form.
Users in the UK who are used to seeing the international version
Some users pointed out that there are many people in the UK who preferred to view the International version of the site.
The World News page on the UK site offers a global view of international events and breaking news, as well as subsections containing news from various world regions. Users in the UK will still be able to access those, and we will continue to reflect international news as part of our overall front page coverage on the UK version of the site.
Isle of Man
Ckinlay wrote from the Isle Of Man that IP detection forced him to see the UK version of the site. Residents of the Isle of Man, as payers of the licence fee, are served the same content seen by the residents on the mainland.
Blackberry users
We are working on a solution for some Blackberry users in the UK who have been seeing the international site because of the way their devices connect to the internet.
Pre-roll ads on video
User jacksonkelsie commented on the One Minute World News video summary which is available to the international audience, saying that an advertising lead of between 15 and 30 seconds defeated the point of a quick and convenient one-minute summary.
Pre-roll advertisements are shown on our on-demand video to fund the cost of distributing it to our international audience, but we are investigating the best way to improve the user experience around our video internationally and hope to make the advertisements less intrusive by doing things like limiting the number of times ads are shown and working with advertisers to supply shorter content.
Why we are using GeoIP
In order to ensure that people in the UK do not see advertising, we have to use GeoIP. Without it, we don't know where ads should be visible and where they shouldn't. The same applies to video and other rights-restricted content.
Generally, GeoIP is a reliable way of determining a user's country, but there are occasions where it doesn't work properly and these we have to address, case by case, with our GeoIP provider. Our interpretation of GeoIP errs on the side of caution to avoid showing ads to UK audiences.
Steve Herrmann is editor of the BBC News website.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~43~RS~)
Comments
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Thanks for the response. But you still haven't said why you can't use geoIP to decide on video content and advertising AND allow users to reorganise the front page so that they get the hierarchy of stories they want. Previous commenters generally seem quite happy to get advertising and no video if the site thinks they are outside the UK; but everyone wants the choice of which front page they see.
Nor have you said why it's necessary to make the changes *now* when you haven't fully developed the replacement.
For what it's worth, I connect via a foreign proxy because I work for a US company; and it *is* possible to get a customised UK Front page complete with London and Sussex news in the personalisation block, and local weather. And I don't get advertising, but that may be due to Adblock Plus. I still get the international menu on "inside" pages, and no video, but I can live with that.
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Goodbye BBC.
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Mr. Herrmann, Steve, thank you for your timely comments. (Better late, than never).
We'd all given up waiting- in fact some have already gone- they gave up waiting.
You write:-
"Second, while we understand the annoyance and frustration many of you feel about the removal of the option to switch between UK and international versions of the site, we won't be restoring it at this point in the site's development."
You added..
"We won't be restoring the option".......
So..
I won't be using the site...
and neither will many others.
Why didn't you wait until you could roll-out the perfect system?
Using GeoIP is a disaster, I am 'abroad', I receive targeted adverts in a foreign language from many sites. Do I take any notice of them?
No.
Do I go to sites that don't have them? "Yes"
Don't you realize that there are many people 'out here' on imperfect internet connections, and for them to search multi-pages to get the information you claim is available at various locations, can take a long time, can be costly, and frustrating when the circuit drops out. When what we require is one one page- customized - it would be so much easier.
Wasn't it like that, once?
So off we go then.
Goodbye. My patience is exhausted. I once had faith in "My Auntie".
You don't care, so why should I? For goodness sake, get your act together and fix it.
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Shocking! Shocking! Shocking! Totally arrogant!
Simple question - why can't we have an international (i.e. with ads etc.) version of the UK front page. That's what I want, and thousands of others, too.
Simple answer required, please.
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Three of the five reasons Steve gave for making this decision are related to adverts.
If adverts are the prime reason for the change, it fails straight away. I have an Ad-blocker so do not receive any adverts. I suspect there may be other folk who have something similar as well. So that argument is dead in the water.
As far as video 'rights-issues'. It makes no difference to me if I do not see them.
It is the UK news I want to read, not foreign news that the BBC wants me to read.
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Steve, at around 17:00hrs BST today whilst connecting with a UK IP number I was served with the international page - but without adverts - so you are either being given incorrect information down-stream or what you write (in the blog above) is nothing but a smoke-screen to cover inability, unwillingness of the BBC internet software/web 'engineers' or some other unspoken policy within the BBC as the BBC web server has actually served what you (or your so called experts) say can't be done - even if it did so accidentally!...
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#4: "Simple question - why can't we have an international (i.e. with ads etc.) version of the UK front page. That's what I want, and thousands of others, too."
Posted in the comments of the last blog entry on this subject by Hymagumba...
- International version: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ifs_news/hi/
- UK version: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/
...bookmark one of the above links, which at present still work.
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Re my comment at #6, as "MrsSilly" pointed out, people can block adverts - in fact it's being done so seamlessly these days that I had forgotten that I'm running 'add-block-plus' - so please disregard much of what I wrote in comment #6! [/embarrassed]
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"7. At 7:46pm on 03 Jul 2009, TheBroll wrote:
#4: "Simple question - why can't we have an international (i.e. with ads etc.) version of the UK front page. That's what I want, and thousands of others, too."
Posted in the comments of the last blog entry on this subject by Hymagumba...
- International version: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ifs_news/hi/
- UK version: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/
...bookmark one of the above links, which at present still work."
Thanks TheBroll. Very useful while it lasts. There isn't a sports one is there?
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Hmm.. Whatever happened to 'Geography is history' ?
How long before users outside Wales are denied the BBC Wales content ?
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Whatever the reasons, and however its dressed up, after 10 years of the BBC News site as my homepage, I'm now sadly changing it to The Times.
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I love and trust the BBC as a source of news. I am curious about something though. Earlier today I watched a BBC video of Iranian TV broadcasting information about the 113 Informant hotline on the web. When I went back to watch it again and show it to a friend it was gone. I thought it was important to show what the Iranian government is doing in this present day. Not all sources are as trusted as BBC. I wish you kept that video available for more people to watch. Is there a reason it was removed? I will continue to look to the BBC online for news.
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At least there is a bit of honesty at last. Advertising is the main reason.
Pity some of us have headed elsewhere then or used other routes and you are losing out!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"up to now, we have had: a UK edition without ads, a UK edition with ads, an international edition with ads and an international edition without ads, all in addition to some content which is visible in the UK but not internationally"
Ok, so this does go against what was said previously (i.e. that it was being changed from one version to two versions) but changing from four versions to two versions is a reasonable reason that I think we can all at least understand, if not actually agree with.
But doesn't this sound hopelessly inefficient to anyone else? Why can't the two versions of the site be built with adverts, and then have the GeoIP simply not serve the adverts to the international IP addresses? Firstly, this technology does exist, secondly it creates no further variations than now, and thirdly it would allow a choice again, which is the thing the vast majority of people want back. And as for the videos that have rights issues, surely the GeoIP can be used to simply serve a static image instead? Besides, does it even matter if we get a "content not available in your area" message? It's not like we're not used to seeing it and I think most international users who have been regular users of this site (notice how I used past tense there) have come to expect it. Despite what your design changes indicate, we're not unreasonable people, or stupid.
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International-based users can access the UKFS (UK Facing Site) Front Page via http://bit.ly/ukbbcnews
UK-based users can access the IFS (International Facing Site) Front Page via http://bit.ly/intbbcnews
There is no reason to my knowledge of both the BBC News Website CPS and modern location-sniffing technologies why the BBC can't offer the UKFS Front Page to an international audience using the same with-advertising template they intend to push to International users looking at the now-default International Front Page.
As a former employee of BBC, and specifically one who helped build this amazing service, I'm really really sad... especially as I myself live outside of the UK.
I hope the above links are useful.
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Very Poignant News...or VPN, if you catch my drift.
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Many many commentators have asked for the TECHNICAL reason why we can't have the radio buttons to switch editions. You still have not provided one. Serve the adverts and access to video based on Geo Location but leave the rest as it was with the radio button.
Having taken a cursory look at the source code for the site (as much of it as is available to the public on the client side any way) I'm not surprised that you have problems - you seem to have coded yourselves into a corner with layers and layers of complexity.
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Finally an honest and up-front response - thank you Steve. As many suspected there is no technical reason at all, it is all just about advertising.
Almost everybody understands and accepts that the international pages now have to carry advertising (which can be blocked client side) and that some video cannot be broadcast outside the UK (which is fair enough, and for the willing there is VPN).
However, up until now this all worked fine without removing the choice of version. There were never actually four different versions, just two versions which showed slightly different content, i.e. with or without adverts. Adverts can be served to non-UK IP addresses on any page which simply has the effect of pushing the page content down a bit. This happens now on every UK page which is viewed by a non-UK IP address, so what's the problem?
This is no different than websites which serve content in several languages and many other websites seem to be able to allow users to switch between several versions without any difficulty at all.
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#16 has summarised it succintly. The adverts never bothered me, nor did the fact there was UK only video and audio. Now I have them via VPN and I avoid the adverts. As I said before, it's your loss.
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Once again, Steve and his team have understood nothing. I think we all knew advertising was the issue, but as many others have said, it is easy to get around the problem and restore the radio button to switch between the UK and International versions. When the site was last revamped - the beta version was used as a opt-in/opt-out possibility until the new site had all the "bugs" smoothed out. This time the new version has been dumped on all the users without asking for any feedback. The arrogance of the team is beyond belief. They still have not understood that we, the users, want to choose the type of news we have. How dare the BBC decide what we should get (but this has already been said more than a thousand times before in the 3 pages - now four - of this thread...)
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The overwhelming majority of people I know - experts and occasional surfers alike - now use Firefox + AdBlock Plus to ensure that they're never 'served' with these important commercial messages which encourage people with no money to waste it on rubbish they don't need. Software like this coupled with the explosive growth of PVRs for video content mean that as ITV are realising to their cost, adverts are very much yesterday's news, and the sooner the BBC (and the rest of the meeja) grasp this fact and start to explore other methods of funding, the better.
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Just like many others who have been affected by these changes and the complete lack of consideration displayed by the BBC News website team, I will be switching over to the Times website as well. At least they have the decency to provide a UK and an international version to their readers. I am lucky because I live in Ireland and can receive the BBC channels through paying for Sky. Mr Herrmann, if you did your research, I think you'd find that this is the case for the vast majority of people in Ireland, but thanks for throwing us in with everyone else meaning we can receive the UK service on our TVs but not on our computers. I truly sympathise with those of you in other countries that can't get the news on BBC 1. I never thought I'd see the day where I'd ever say a bad word about the BBC- this is a sad day indeed.
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Steve said:
"But, for now, after considering all the options and all your feedback, the separation of editions based on IP addresses really does still look to us like the most viable approach to a whole set of technical, design and editorial challenges which we face as we develop the website and improve it for both UK and international audiences."
Please explaint this. If you had really considered all the feedback I really think you would have come to the conclusion that this is NOT the best approach. Technically it is relatively simple to provide the option to select a version, editorially you have already said that all content should still be available to everyone, as far as rights permit, and as far as design is concerend, well, that is what templates are for - to separate content from the design.
Maybe I'm just not getting this, but I would like to think I have enough experience in web design to know that the reasons you have given are sadly still nothing but excuses.
Steve also said:
"Generally, GeoIP is a reliable way of determining a user's country, but there are occasions where it doesn't work properly and these we have to address"
It's not so much the problem that it doesn't work properly, more the fact that not everybody with a non-UK IP address is outside the UK and vice-versa. Why can't the technology be used solely to determine whether or not ads are shown. It worked like that before, so what specifically is the technical challenge here? This is a question you have unfortunately still failed to properly answer in detail.
And...
"Up to now, we have had: a UK edition without ads, a UK edition with ads, an international edition with ads and an international edition without ads, all in addition to some content which is visible in the UK but not internationally"
No, you had two editions and if the user had a non-UK IP address the ads would appear, if not, they wouldn't. If you use an adblocker with an international IP address the ads just dissappear and the page looks the same as if you were in the UK. If you really did have four editions then I must say that is a very inefficient way of programming a website.
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What arrogant, pompous and lazy dribble.
In work I am routed via the Netherlands so only see the international version. I dont care if I see advertising or not but what I DO care about is that my preferences are no longer being saved. For christs sake you cant even be bothered to remember that I want to see the football section of the sports headlines.
It's not rocket science:
- Have a ad section that only shoes on non-UK IPs.
- Have certain video content served only to UK ips.
- LEAVE THE REST AS A PERSONAL CHOICE!!!!!!
There is ABSOLUTELY NO techincal reason why this can not be done. For christs sake we do it at work despite only having about 3 months per yea of man time to spare maintaining the thing.
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"BBC Parliament
Live coverage of the lawmakers
BBC Parliament is a state-funded (from taxes) TV channel."
Until recently, as a UK taxpayer, I could access this channel anywhere in the World. The BBC has now moved this to their iPlayer and it can now only be viewed at addresses that they (the BBC) decide are in the UK.
The last time that I was able to access it (with great difficulty) was to watch the Chancellor's Budget presentation.
Presumably our Government and the BBC are now too ashamed to show this to the world and have censored the channel.
Unfortunately we now have the Mother of Parliaments. (Who the father was is unknown).
And as for the BBC It is now Nation shall speak (redacted) unto Nations.
Who in the world outside of the BBC will ever believe a word that the BBC says again?
This is only a fraction of the BBC website. Recent changes to the whole BBC website have restricted international access. Why people throughout the world should no longer be able to watch The Sky at Night I fail to understand especially in the international year of astronomy.
This latest change is the last straw................
Sadly I bring PMQ to mind when reading the non-answers from you George..........
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Doesn't the fact that you have had to write 4 blogs on this subject tell you that whoever made this decision has got it badly wrong?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm a bit surprised why so much attention is being given to people who don't even live in the UK and therefore don't pay for the BBC.
It's OUR BBC, surely WE should be the priority and OUR money shouldn't be spent on people who don't pay for it.
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#30
"I'm a bit surprised why so much attention is being given to people who don't even live in the UK and therefore don't pay for the BBC."
But many of the people who are complaining are UK domicile and pay the licence fee (which is irrelevant anyway as the licence fee only relates to the BBC television services, the radio licence was abolished 30 or more years ago!), the fact that they are employed by companies, are customers of ISPs that use that use non UK IP numbers or are temporally based out of the country seems to have escaped your attention...
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Mr. Herrmann, you say:
...and a broader selection of UK and international topics to the Have your Say pages.
Those of us with memories stretching back more than a few months recall that Have Your Say used to have around fifteen topics open on any given day, taking into account the international and UK versions. For the past year or so you've had three or four topics across both versions. Now that you are restricting access on an either or basis, I fail to see how you are going to be offering a "broader selection." Broader than what?
Given the recent unexplained loss by Have Your Say of hundreds of thousands of archived readers' comments stretching back years, together with this latest debacle, I would say that the BBC needs to employ an IT team that knows what it's doing.
Living outside the UK, I used to be able to access programmes like Question Time via Real Player. Now it appears to be restricted to this i-thingy and I can no longer access it. Obviously the argument can be made that I don't pay a licence fee and therefore should not be entitled to view such programmes. I have a counter argument: the BBC intrudes on the lives of people across the planet, endlessly spewing its left wing PC propaganda, often at captive audiences. It should be able to handle a bit of intrusion in turn.
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I will reword a comment I made on one of the previous blogs:
Why not offer the editions as before, but warn UK users that when they visit the International Edition that pages it will not be 'optimised' for them, they will see grey boxes or something similar where International Users would see ads.
Let International users visit the UK edition but warn them that there will be links they can't follow, and video content they can't watch. That way you only use geo-ip to decide whether or not to show ads or block video content.
In short, there is no technical reason why basing editions on geo-ip makes any sense. You do not need 4 different versions as this post implies, you just need 2! which is what you have now anyway.
It is so simple. If your technicians can't figure that one out then I suggest you find alternative web developers.
But I suspect there are other, less technical reasons why you feel the need to block content depending on whether someone is in the UK or not.
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Dear,Mr.Steeve Herman,
First up all,I want to say that,i am very active member of BBC networks.Yesterday only, i have written very lengthy comments on Mr.Webb!s note (10)comments on his selected subjects,all my writings were published.Thanks to BBC.
This,your recent international changes applications are complicated.
For eg.,i am not able to see,watch all your music videos,wimbledon tennis matches.It simply directs me to go to iplayer or connect with window media player or real player,or gets information,this is for UK viewers only.
It shows clear discrimination to other widely users.This is not justifiable.
When i am contributing much to BBC channels,i should get all benefits on the spot itself.
I am a writer to all leading news channels and to major social websites.
Now a days, i am concentrating more intelligence,more hours,more writings to all editors blogs,have your say comments,more hours with BBC sports channels.
My brain is very active and wants to share,debate,create ,enlarge more members to BBC.
Please answer to all my doubts by scientific means.
Hope to solve all my problems at the earliest.
Here, in India,now time is 2.05 am (next day).
With best wishes.
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What'sVPN?
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#35: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vpn Broadly speaking, VPN is a method of appearing to be in a place you're not. As well as allowing authorised access to private networks (you appear to be inside the firewall), the technology can allow you to present a UK-based IP address to websites which need one, even if you're connecting from overseas.
--
I'm amazed at the number of comments here saying the same thing. Two versions, one with a UK-based hierarchy of news items and one with an international view of the importance of individual stories. One template, with space for ads which are shown based on IP address (you could even use IP-based CSS to suppress the space, for UK users); and use IP to determine availability of video. And then allow users to switch version. The geoIP should be used to determine serving of ads and video, *not* the hierarchy of stories presented.
Simples.
Users aren't stupid: they know that with a foreign IP address they're likely to get adverts and no video. But there's no reason that they should not be able to choose the hierarchy of the stories. Or a UK-centred HYS or UK-centred Money pages -- and if they access those from a foreign IP address, they get adverts and no video.
I don't see the problem: what *is* the technical issue here?
[I don't know, Steve, whether you're a techie or a writer. There's nothing wrong with being editorial and not technical, but you do have to trust what your technicians are telling you. However it might be worth reminding them that a significant number of commenters here, to whom you are relaying what you're told, *are* technical. In fact, it looks like practically the only people left here are those clamouring for some technicality.]
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Steve - thanks for your detailed and what looks like a very considered response. It seems to address a number of issues raised in previous people's blog responses.
You can't please all the people all the time. As I've said before, the people who are responding on this blog are a small minority of BBC website users. They have a choice - use the site or don't. If you don't like the site, then leave. I don't like certain UK newspaper websites, so I don't use them: I don't sit there moaning and tell them how they should run it for my benefit.
Steve - you're doing a good job dealing with the complaints. Keep it up.
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@#30
Actually, the whole reason this started was because the BBC was trying to not spend licence payers' money on international users, but making a right royal mess up of it. Now there are people in the UK who can't see the UK site, people in the UK who want to see the international site, people who do pay for tbe BBC but live abroad and can't see the UK site, licence payers who can't see the UK version while abroad, and many other disgruntled people. And there are plenty of people feeling miffed because they had something taken away from them. The mandate the BBC has is to bring the UK to the world, now they've taken part of it away and we don't like it. All we want is one little radio button back.
As for myself, I'm a student abroad. I was a licence fee payer in the UK and I will become one again when I return. I relied on the BBC website to give me the news from back home. Now it doesn't do that. If it hadn't been for the direct links to the different versions I wouldn't even be here.
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#37. At 00:18am on 05 Jul 2009, Jordan D wrote:
"Steve - thanks for your detailed and what looks like a very considered response."
Except he hasn't answered the most important question, just what the technical reasons are that prevents having two editions, IP addresses were being used before to direct people to either the bbc.co.uk or bbc.com domains (this is were Steve is getting the four versions from I suspect, two versions per domain) but why can't IP numbers be use just - as others have suggested - to serve adverts or not. What is so difficult, what technically, would prevent that?
Sorry but Steve's reply goes nowhere near answering the core issues and as many of the issues that Steve has answered do not seem to have been fixed four weeks after the changes were first made it would suggest that the BBC doesn't really have a clue how to solve them, many of the problems are also causing the BBC to be in breach of it's own Royal Charter if not the law...
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After reading all the feedback you have received, here's a question for you...
"Is this your best effort"
If yes, this is your best effort, then you should be fired or demoted because you are not good enough.
If no, this is not the best you could come up with, then you should be fired or demoted because you don't put enough effort in.
I really wish you would just go one way or the other, and the BBC can place someone else into your job who understands that in any organisation, the first rule is that your customers needs come first.
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#40. At 09:05am on 05 Jul 2009, missymooabu wrote:
"I really wish you would just go one way or the other"
Please, stop making it personal, sacking Mr Herrmann won't solve the issues being raised. Steve is the editor of the BBC news website, he is not the BBC's internet IT manager, whilst he might be repeating utter waffle he is just the messenger, stop trying to shoot the messenger...
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I'm sorry mr Herrmann, you still haven't answered anything. Just repeated the same old dribble. The GeoIP could also be used to inject advertising on international IPs, whilst still retaining the intl/UK option.
After four pages of comments and no answers, it's now time to move on to a different site. Bye...
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#37, (Jordan D).
Message for you-
Yes we are going elsewhere, other sites, other pages, other adclicks, other opinions. (FCO please note).
We are only trying to correct an error, for the good of all those who craved the choice of 'home page'.
It might not seem very much to you (I don't know where you are located), but for those of us away from the UK, these pages were our trusted link with the UK, with 'home'. They were excellent. No excuse that 'they are all still available' holds true, because they are not. So, I am being censored.
Pure and simple. Like that idea?
I can't se every UK page, that UK readers see.
I don't, and neither do thousands of others.
That counts as censorship in my book.
Now we are carefully guided to pages that are 'for us', as we are subjected to adverts.
Adverts? So be it. Live in any other country than the UK and the luxury of ad-free broadcasting does not exist- you get used to it. A necessary evil. You learn to block them out either technically, or mentally. Mind you 15 minutes of adverts and programme trails between the main evening news and weather takes a lot of getting used to on my national broadcaster that has adverts and a state grant to make it pay.
It's the truth we need. From a UK viewpoint. (Steve, please listen to us, it's NOT here anymore, in a form that is useable, convenient and technically possible for those on limited internet access.
One page, customizable as it was before, is all we want, from a UK viewpoint.
I do NOT want "International News" I'm there already!!!!
This is not personal. But please, fix it. You want to broadcast? then do so, don't narrowcast.
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#33:
"Why not offer the editions as before, but warn UK users that when they visit the International Edition that pages it will not be 'optimised' for them, they will see grey boxes or something similar where International Users would see ads."
No grey boxes, the adverts simply don't appear (as before). No optimisation necessary.
#41:
I think you are right. Steve Herrmann is being fed information from elsewhere and either doesn't know better or doesn't feel inclined to find out whether the IT people really are just making excuses.
It has become clear that he is simply "passing on the messages" he has been given (indeed most of the explanations in the above post come from the FAQs compiled by the project team), but it would be nice if he were to at least question whether what he is being told really is true. At the very least he seems to believe that there were - technically - originally four different versions of the site.
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I really want to see UK pages abroad when I go on holiday or have to go on Month long trips etc... Can't we sign up for a subscription where if you're a non license payer (i.e. not a UK resident) you can pay a monthly fee to get full access to the BBC Pages, but if you have a TV license you get a free account that you can use all around the world.
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I note that Opera Mini on my G1 phone still gives me the international version as the Opera cache system is outside the UK.
#fail as they say these days.
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It's STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH!
I want UK orientated business stories, not just UK Your money. I want UK orientated content full stop. This is irritating beyond belief and I'm now setting up custom UK news pages on Factiva and using the home pages of the UK press. I desperately want to use the BBC News page, having been a beacon of quality for so many years but I can't. Please for the love of whatever deity you worship, sort this out properly.
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Useless. Bye, bye.
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Steve, you really don't understand what your website viewers want, and, as some have said, you are just relaying the ridiculous answers your so-called web-techies are giving you. People all around the world want to log in to the BBC website to get info from where they used to live, or where their family lives. This is possible on sites like Yahoo which has no particular geographical base. The BBC is Britain: you expect to be able to access your local stuff from the BBC. The BBC has now become so insular it is incredible...
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#47 - Here's the UK Business Page main screen
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/business/default.stm
Again, why people are being denied the choice of seeing things like this is the issue because all of the stories, while on the site, aren't navigable from the international business site.
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Thanks GeoffK1874 - I'll bookmark that.
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#17 Thanks, Ben Metcalfe for what looks like a very straightforward answer: I'll try both those bit.ly addresses this week. Having paid an arm and a leg for a BBC licence, I very unreasonably expect to be able to access content for which I've paid.
Thanks also to people mentioning VPN which has been on my 'to do' list for finding out what/how for ages so I'd better go and Google some answers.
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I do wonder whether webpage adverts actually work. I suppose someone has done a survey and come up with figures to justify them.
But I can only speak for myself. I would never click on an advert. I do not know where it would take me, nor would I know what I might 'pick up', and not being able to understand what an advert says ensures I steer well clear of it.
So, are adverts the money-spinners websites appear to think they are or are they just Emperor's Clothes?
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Mr Herrmann,
acleach's #1 is absolutely right in saying "But you still haven't said why you can't use geoIP to decide on video content and advertising AND allow users to reorganise the front page so that they get the hierarchy of stories they want."
Not only that, but you still serve advertising video and block certain UK only video based on IP geolocation as well.
Your only problem in making the site what both UK and "foreign" visitors want to see is adding advertising to us "foreigners". That is trivial technically, and you already have the code to do it because you've solved it on the video.
Frankly you haven't given an explanation at all but merely fiddled at the edges of the issue, especially for those "onshore" with "foreign" IP addresses who would probably be much less concerned if they received some advertising they shouldn't and were blocked from some video they can always get at home. The workarounds you have described merely add to the complexity of maintaining your site - no doubt to the delight of your techies - when a sensible use of technology would actually simplify your maintenance problems.
You also make incorrect reference to the Isle of Man. Viewers there and in the Channel Islands are not in the UK. You should therefore rename your "UK" editions as "British Isles excluding the Irish Republic" editions.
Please do not believe that your own techies are infallible in what they tell you. As a techy myself, I'm only too well aware of the many mistakes I have made in more than four decades of computing, but I'm not wrong here.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I give up! A once-great web site has been butchered for no good technical reason. Methinks timesonline.co.uk is going to be the home page of many enforced exiles. So sad and unnecessary.
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This doesn't actually explain whyignoring video, which rights issues mean can't be overiddena cookie can't be used to override the GeoIP-driven edition selection. Still two editions. Still a choice for users. If they want the UK edition with the knowledge that videos won't play, let them shoot themselves in the foot. There has been no explanation why this would be technically difficult to implement (because it wouldn't be, particularly).
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Rather sad about this change. Like many other ex-pats, I appreciate the need for advertising and to block certain videos on the site. But I want to know what's going on back home and I'm being frustrated by the site.
Please reconsider and let us choose which site to view. I'm afraid I've moved elsewhere for my UK news, but I'll be right back when the situation is rectified.
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Another week goes by and alas nothing much changes.
As an AoL Uk user yes I now have the UK home page but it is worse than you can imagine with many of the links not working from the front page (or secondary page - Your Money being a good example). Consequently it is a very frustrating experience accessing the site.
These guys be they Editorial Staff or Techies seem to have dug themselves a very large hole from which there is seemingly no escape.
The wonder of it is that the Upper Echelons within the organisation have not cottoned on to what is happening and hit someone very hard over the head with the nearest internal BBC telephone directory (which I imagine to be the size of your average Yellow Pages address book).
I can't imagine what they are thinking of particularly when it is obvious than many of the complainants on this thread clearly know how to construct and deconstruct a site and are bemused at some of the obscurantist nonsense being proferred up by Mr Herrmann as possible causes, excuses, or explanations for this mess.
It begs the question why the many millions of users and licence fee payers are being subjected to this cack handed site modification on the run.
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Good to see yet again it has been promised that HYS will have more UK features for those of us in the UK with the international BBC. I also notice that there is no timescale given and this was also promised back in blog 3. I have had a look at HYS today and there is a 'From the UK' section which has one topic shown. At least I can now click on this and having got a UK HYS topic displayed, I can see the top 5 UK topics. Why isn't it possible to have more UK topics on the main HYS page?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_div_1/8124105.stm
"These matches will also be streamed live on this website (for UK users only) and all the goals from every game in the Football League, Carling Cup and Johnstone's Paint Trophy will be shown on the BBC website in the UK."
I wonder if the recent seperation of versions is due to this in some way? You can imagine the Football League being quite strict about such things.
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It's been a few days since I checked back, so must admit I was surprised to find part four in the ongoing series of ineptitude as I thought they'd lost interest. I wonder how long this series will run?
Although of course I wasn't surprised by the content. Steve, you need to take a long hard look at your team - if you're just passing on messages, don't just believe what you're being told.
Without revisiting all the same issues ad nauseam (not much point as they seem not to be of interest to the BBC team who are mainly concerned with making their own life easier rather than providing a service), one issue stood out. Under "UK-based users seeing the international version at work", it says "Users on international proxies, which make up less than 1% of overall usage...". Well the UK population is over 60 million - yes they're not all users of this site by a long way, but 1% is still a LOT of people to upset. 0.1% would be a lot of people to upset - people who are UK resident, paying UK license fees, and getting an international and advertising funded service. Ad nauseam indeed, but at least we now know this was advertising driven.
The NHS may have had a postcode lottery as to what level of healthcare to expect...but the BBC are giving us an IP lottery over whether or not we'll get an adequate service.
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I've not visited the BBC site for a week now, after being a user that would visit around a half dozen times every day. I've just logged on to read this update post.
I'm already abroad - why would I log on to the British Broadcasting Corporation for world news? I realise now that I just don't care. I've moved on. I can't be bothered. There are plenty of other news sites out there where I can get a UK perspective on things and not some rubbish repackaged world news site.
Smell ya later BBC.
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#60. At 12:04pm on 07 Jul 2009, "sweezely" asked a question about rights management:
In answer to your question, no, as it will still come down to IP numbers, if you can restrict what site version is served you can restrict what video content is served - or any other content for than matter...
No, this is a design/technical decision and not a rights issue, as much as Steve is trying to make it out to be such an issue.
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#63 Boilerplated
"No, this is a design/technical decision and not a rights issue"
That's a very charitable way of looking at it. I'd say it was either a control freakery issue, with some future text becoming banned for one set of users or another like the PRC or - more likely, I hope - a gullibility issue on the part of management coupled with a competence issue on the part of the techies.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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What bugs me is that key decisions appear to be being made by the technical team and management are just accepting it. Correct me if I am wrong but as an editor I would expect Steve to have some say in what happens. From the statements made and answers given it is clear that the IT people are calling the shots. If there honestly is a technical problem with (re)implementing what people want here, i.e. a choice, then please tell the users why - honestly.
In the position of a manager / editor / website provider I would seriously start to ask questions if the feedback I was getting from my users seemed to suggest that what I was being told by my IT people was more of an excuse than a justification.
#63. I have to agree. At least until we are PROVED wrong.
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I suppose we shall get an update from Steve on Friday, and move on to page 5 - however contributors need to know we are getting on for 2000 posts over the 4 pages, and the vast majority (90%?) is negative...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/talking_point/default.stm
Link to UK Have Your Say for anyone still having navigation nightmares.
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Goodbye - I already have found alternatives
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@#67
Many thanks for the link.
Works a treat.
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Checking in again. It looks like another week has passed with the BBC doing little more than providing reasons they are not listening to this feedback. Ho hum.
I can handle the adverts and the lack of video, that's down to my employer's choice of routing. Many sites have adverts and I can watch any video when I get home.
The thing that gets me, the thing that singled out the BBC in the past, is that I could put in my postcode and get local news and local weather reports on the front page. That option has gone, now and nothing has explained why that is. It should be easy to set that up for both the UK and International editions. With that option, even if GeoOIP did wrongly identify people as being Johnny Foreigners, even if people were on holiday, business or living outside the UK, they could retain a link to their 'local' community with local headlines showing on the same place as national / international headlines.
By taking that away, the BBC has removed its USP at the same time that other news sites are introducing it.
For now, though, I'm off back to the UK newspapers' pages where I can get all the UK content I want.
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dbulbeck
Is so right.
100% right.
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I had a meeting yesterday with some computer people who were trying to sell me some software. They were doing a good job, and I was getting carried away. I kept asking them "Can it do this?" and "can it do that?" Things that were a LOT more complicated than having two versions of a web-site.
You know what they said?
"Yes sir, we can make it do whatever you want!"
Do you want their number Steve? I don't mind putting you in touch and I am sure they would be delighted to go to the UK and sort out the bbc's technical problems.
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What's most amusing is the amount of people who come back to specifically say they won't be coming back again. Ironic, isn't it?
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#73:
Not really. These are all people who would really like to come back and would do if things improve.
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Well, I suppose some people are easily amused. Usually the "if it doesn't affect me, everything is fine" brigade of limited horizons and narrow minds. The fact is the BBC, through its incompetence and lack of planning has withdrawn a service from, and is still banning, huge numbers of BBC UK based licence payers from accessing the full UK site and iPlayer facility - and yes, for those who obsess about such things, they are British citizens living in the UK.
And still no apology for this blatant and continuing failure of the BBC to fulfil its responsiblity to its customers/licence payers/stakeholders or whatever the current word is.
Oh and by the way,just because not every single unhappy individual in the world hasn't complained on this blog doesn't mean thay are all content with the changes; or does every British election mean those who don't vote accept the incumbents are doing a good job?
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Steven you have so been fooled. You listen more to your IT staff than your users. That last happened 20 years ago in the real world.
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#73
I learnt a new link - I can open bbc.co.uk and go straight to "Complaints" From there I can access this blog.
That's all I do now. don't you think that is a shame? My VERY FIRST home page on my first computer was bbc.c.o.uk.
Now some IT experts have just lost sight of what is the purpose of their existence and it just isn't the same - it's just NOT the bbc.co.uk any more!
It's like I have had something that belongs to me taken away from me.
It's like I have lost a part of what makes me British - and proud to be British.
It's like because I live abroad, I must be interested in what is going on in Karache today and I don't really want to know about my home town.
It's like I am having choices made for me that I don't want to take.
It's like the people who are making those choices are techies!
it's like the only person from the entire bbc who (rarely) answers my concerns is some bloke called Steve who doesn't bother listening to my feelings and just repeats scripted replies.
I don't pay a license fee now, so maybe I don't have a right to complain. I paid it long enough though and I can assure you that this was not what I paid it for. I do however pay for the BBC indirectly (more than the license fee ever was!) by subscibing to bbc lifestyle (repeats of anne robinson), bbc style (repeats of anne robinson) and bbc world news (karache)
So this REALLY is my last comment - although I will chack back on a regular basis (more in hope than expectation) for a reversal of the situation.
This is (not) london, saying goodnight and thank you for watching.
Bye bye.
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Message to Jordan D.
People (like me) return, periodically, hoping to find things back to normal- the way it worked, (exactly as "filmin" wrote).
It was a perfect site.
"missymooabu", like "dbulbeck" (above) have both got it exactly right.
Mr. Moderator, please put in a good word for us, we know you're reading these, even if nobody else is, can't you do something? As far as I can see, no contributor has written anything to cause offence, many have offered constructive comments.
We cared. (History)
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#78 We cared.
Some of us still do. And some of us live in the UK and work in IT and have managed websites which are internationally differentiated due to rights/data-protection issues. And we didn't have to learn rocket science*.
And if it's explained to us why the BBC News site is so different that it's impossible to have different story hierarchies along with advert-serving and video-serving choices, we'd probably even try to convince others that the BBC techies are right after all.
But so far, I can't imagine it's anything like as complicated as Steve is being led to believe.
--
* Working out which IP address to use and where that was located was fun, though.
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I AM A REGULAR BBC VIEWER. HOWEVER ON THE BBC WEBSITE THERE ARE NO OPTIONS FOR PUBLIC TO REPORT THEIR OWN NEWS OTHER THAN BLOG.
PL FORWARD TO ORGANISATIONS OR SOME FORM OF AUTHORITIES OR CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS ORGANISATIONS.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
GENUINELY GRIEVED,
THANKING YOU IN ANTICIPATION.
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I do not care if:
1. There are adverts - I do not read them.
2. I cannot view restricted video - So what!
I want to read about UK news, politics and business. I do not want to go through hoops to get the information. I do not want to be pigeon-holed because of a fallible code. Making a personal assumption about me because of my IP address is disparaging.
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Update: For users outside the UK who want quick access to UK local news, we've now added the postcode box from the UK version of the site onto the UK page of the international version. This means that if you are outside the UK, you can enter a postcode on the UK news page to set your local headlines and weather. You can also add football news from English and Scottish clubs and other sport headlines.
(A reminder that news from English and Scottish clubs is still available in the My Club section of BBC Sport, and the BBC Weather pages allows you to search for a town in the UK by name or postcode and to set the location as a default forecast).
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Ah, progress at last.
Thanks..
let's see if it works.... there are no local TV or Radio listings.....
but it's an improvement... it's still 'not as it was'
but so far, thanks.
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Steve,
Just stop the tinkering and change it back to the way it was.... It's time to say "Sorry, we were wrong"....
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This still doesn't address the issues for those of us who are resident in the UK but travel abroad frequently on business or holiday. I have paid my licence fee, and I want to use the UK services I paid for.
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Re Steve's comment (no. 82).
Just so you can see the difference between the 2 UK pages try these links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm - The old UK site controlled by IP your IP address.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/default.stm - The 'international' UK site.
You can clearly see the differnces and I think this amounts to censorship.
I am not abroad, I work & live in the UK, but my company hosts it's servers in Germany.
PS - the BBC ae not alone in this, I tried the Sky Player to watch the Ashes on Wednesday and this was blocked because of my IP address, but they are aware of this and are looking into it, though I am not hopeful, but at least I can withdraw my Sky Sports subscription - I cannot reduce my license fee!
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Don't get me wrong, the 'new' site, as it is, is still not a patch on the old 'homely' page, but it is an improvement.
It also shows it can be done.
I want more customization, more news and more local media facilities. Links to the relevant BBC local Radio Station's 'live' output, listing of the local TV channels available. I would like more than three news items....
I'd prefer the local section to be of a higher importance to the "Features, Views and Analysis" section.
I would prefer it to be indistinguishable from the old 'UK' page except for the inevitable advertising.
Hey! Why not let me customize it? Just like 'the old days'?
To Duncanwh, .. the censorship argument we have been fighting for weeks. the frustration of knowing that there is material 'just there', but that we were NOT ALLOWED to read it!!!
At this point 'the powers that be' will say that "all material was still available".... but we know better.....
So TVC is a Grade 2 Listed building?.... Does that include the software?
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The changes are terrible. As I'm on AOL I get the international site. Cannot set my local weather on the home page and numerous links don't work. At least it has made me look at other sites & realise how poor some of your journalism is.
As another commentator said, "goodbye BBC". I would add, vote Tory & cut the BBC subsidy.
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mildew808 there must be a problem at your end as I can set my weather as if I was in the UK.
There are still underlying problems.
Please don't bring politics into this discussion as it is irrelevant.
Live abroad, and then realize that those in the UK don't know how lucky they are. It ain't perfect, but there are many worse. Like ITV, for instance!
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Thank you for providing this information so that what I read.
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I feel now that everytime I visit the BBC website I'm fighting the website design to see what I want to see. I posted on the first couple of comments pages about using the website to get a UK perspective on the news, and therefore wanting to access the UK front page rather than an 'international' front page (which is so general it could equally be labelled 'no where' - it certainly doesn't represent that bit of the international world that I'm checking from (Rep of Ireland)).
I use the address that some people have posted to access that front page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm I also note that I would not know that this exists if I was only relying on the website itself and not the contributors to these blogs. However, as I start to navigate around the website then I find myself having to repeatedly return to my favourites menu to re-summon this page rather than the international page that the designers want me to see. It feels like a struggle and I certainly visit the BBC website less because of that; I'm fed up being forcibly presented with the pages that I don't see as being as relevant as other pages that I know exist but you don't want me to see.
As #89 says, don't bring politics into the discussion. I am personally very happy to see adverts in the website for me whilst I am an 'international' reader, much as I am very happy whilst living in the UK to pay the licence fee (knowing that it's better value by an exponential amount than anything offered by the commercial operators). I even accept not being able to see many of the programmes on iPlayer (although I did struggle to understand why the same international rights issues that cover sport and drama went as far as me being able to see any of the recent poetry season... but by now I'm digressing).
I just wanted to say that visiting the site is a far less pleasurable experience now.
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I hope that well known BBC technophile and seasoned traveller Stephen Fry gets on the end of this problem at some point soon ! Because you can bet if he does feathers will get ruffled and fur will fly.
Unfortunately we mere mortals that complain and post here are simply ignored and maginalised, but someone of Mr Fry's stature and gravitas will I am sure command more attention, and will effect change more speedily than all of our efforts combined.
And that means a change back to where it was before all this Orwellian goobledegook was presented to us as some form of explanation and justification of the indefensible by Mr Herrmann.
As a "non twitterer" I would ask any "twitterer's" out there to alert Mr Fry if you can to our plight !
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Robert #91, correct.
There is something about having to 'fight the system' to see what you want to see.
I have one "Tab" with 15 links which take an hour to load, trying to replicate that which I could see on one BBC web-page.
And finally, your point saying-
"I just wanted to say that visiting the site is a far less pleasurable experience now"
Is so true.
I always thought that is what web-designers were trying to achieve.
"An enjoyable experience".
This might be said to be the result of 'cut-backs'.
"They can't get the staff", so they are trying to rely on the technology to cope with differing IP addresses.
So we are, at last, showing some sort of progress as regards customization of "home" wherever THAT is. I wish that the site could return to the 'old' arrangement.
Off at a tangent, for a moment....
There are web-sites around now that have two levels-
"Premium" and
"Free".
For example "Spotify"- legal downloading of music.
The "Premium" sites don't have adverts. The "Free" sites DO have adverts.
Is there no way that the BBC site could have a
"Premium" level of 'membership' (subscription?) that gave access to iPlayer and all (repeat ALL) web-pages without adverts, and a
"Free" site that was 'the basic' site with adverts and without access to iPlayer?
Perhaps this is too complicated. However there is another income stream for "Auntie" should she wish to accept it.
Back on script.
Thanks again for the improvements, but can it get closer to the way it was? Make more of the 'local' content, by elevating it within the page (remember we have an inappropriate advert that fills our page at the top), and then add more customizable content, media (Radio TV etc) and features.
You have accepted the failings you created,
and you have proved the technology is capable of providing that which we desire. By all means add adverts and "adclicks", we'll return to your site, but please make it the way we desire.
So, Steve your challenge, should you accept it, is to create a web-page that resembles 100% the original, but with (if you really need to) adverts.
This message will self-destruct in.......... hours,
how long have you got?
Not long.
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#93 wrote:
"So, Steve your challenge, should you accept it, is to create a web-page that resembles 100% the original, but with (if you really need to) adverts."
Or to put it in other words simply restore the site to the way it was before since this is exactly what we used to have.
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Ladderedge,not sure the problem is at my end.What I really meant was that I cannot set my local weather on the BBC home page,it stays as London.Have to click on weather to get my local forecasts. Could well be me or AOL but,like you, it's the inability to customise the home page that's frustrating me,together with the number of broken links.
Fair comment about the politics (and itv.com)
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mildew808, greetings from 'abroad'!
I am able to see the weather forecast for a specific UK postcode. I have an IP address that is non-UK.
I do agree with your final points
"it's the inability to customise the home page that's frustrating me, together with the number of broken links."
And the fact that there are pages 'there' that I can't see. I can't see what the
UK voter
licence payer
decision maker
person
relative
sees.
Between you and me, this is very tedious, isn't it? In fact, it's a real PIA!!
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Don't want this thread to die, so I am just giving it a boost. No changes then???
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Changes? Not yet. I suppose that sentence betrays a triumph of hope over realism.
However: for those who want to circumvent the techies, the PDA version of the news works from foreign IP addresses: http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm
Rather a basic presentation, and no video, but -- it appears -- no ads either. This may suit those who want a UK-based hierarchy of news and aren't worried about video (or all the eye-candy of the main site).
I suppose publishing it here will mean that it won't work for very much longer... :-(
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In reply to Steve's response post #82, at last!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/default.stm looks very similar to the way it used to look, with my local news and weather and the UK news all on one page.
I asked, post #70, for this to happen and, the next day, it did. Am I vain enough to think that I had an impact in making that specific request? Yes, I am! :)
To the doubting Jordan D, post #73, I kept returning in the hope that that something would happen. I feel that it has now.
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What I do not understand is why, if the BBC is so strapped for cash, it has two websites - one with adverts and one without.
If adverts are so essential to the BBCs finances that it will collapse without them, why not have just one universal website the same for everyone and use an ad-blocker for anyone with a UK IP address. I use one and it works fine for me. It is about time this farcical and unnecessary situation was put behind us.
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Why are you changing the recommended totals in have your say? the most recommended totals have been changed twice now on the "Will British troops succeed in Afghanistan?" forum.
Not enough troop hate?
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It seems to me that those of us who objected to the changes over a month ago have now been more or less ignored into submission
Along with others I have been saddened by the BBC's actions but it has made me look around and I have to say that I am glad I have done so.
Also, I have asked this once before but I would like to know if the numbers viewing the BBC pages have changed since the changes to "International Pages" were made in June?
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sweeneyged,
perhaps an application under the FOI (Freedom Of Information), might bring forth the answer to your question.
Like of the 2000 + posts in this topic, how did the figures work out?
Those in favour of the changes,
those against, and
those neutral?.
Like many others, I look back here, intermittently, to see what's happening regarding the web-page. A classic case of "The Medium not the Message", in that I am more interested in the BBC Web-site than I am in the actual news content itself?
Congratulations Steve, and colleagues, you have really messed things up.
Some of us cared.........
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I too am looking in occasionally, satisfied for now with The Guardian and Times online (and how detailed!) service, and not actually tempted to go to any links because I can't be bothered to cotinually check I'm in the UK, UK page when I make a wrong click instead of the foreigner's camp where I should be.
I, like sweenyged #102 would really like to know how the figures are working out since the changes. I have to suspect though that the kind of investigation involved may be overtaxing for the technical team.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I would like to know how my last post broke the house rules exactly, please.
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Give Me A Break - don't worry was told mine was too (#104) got the wrist-slap by email, now it's back. Maybe...... there's a technical problem here.
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I've switched to CNN.com - they have a straightforward choice between US and International Edition, and the International edition like their channel has developed a good international non-US centric style, language and focus. Shame really because the BBC layout is still the best, but I hate UK non-stories and clicking the World page isn't the same as it doesn't update the focus of other links and info.
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#103 Ladderedge
Funnily enough I did put a FOI request in asking who was ultimately responsible for the decision regarding the changes to international pages?
I imagine it will be the DG but it would be good to see who really puts their head above the parapet.
That answer is now due so I must keep an eye out in my e-mail
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# 111 sweenyged- I await the answer with great interest. Best of luck. I regret that the answer could well be disappointing. "Someone" from the "Spur" at TVC, no doubt.
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I will reiterate my objection to having to find out information on the bbc by logging on to that awful twitter thing, but this time I am beyond annoyed!
Herrmanns latest entry about an article on HYS must surely take the biscuit...he is now twitting about things that I can't even access on the international version!
Do any of you suspect - as I do - that he is quite enjoying this little moment of power?
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just come back after a week to have a look but see no significant changes.I do notice though that this issue is now being buried as "notice any changes " has been removed from the homepage. Well Steve or whoever is really responsible I dont look at your homepage anymore while I am overseas now ,and when I am back home in the UK next week I dont think I will bother there either as You have made me find much better alternatives.
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This 'blog' has gone quiet.
Everyone who cared, can add no more to the discussion.
The BBC Trust has been informed, MPs have been contacted, the FCO has been written to,
so what?
At the end, there are more important things.
The truth, censorship, accuracy, safety of journalists and crews, access to news (ah yes, there was one missing).
Why bother any more? Nobody who lives in the UK understands the point (except those who, through no fault of their own, can only access the BBC News Web-site through a foreign IP). perhaps 'the powers-that-'be' ought to use intermittent dial-up.
May I quote the preceding post?
(#Comares2001)
"I don't think I'll bother"
I give up.
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Back for my weekly check on the off-chance things might have improved, and yes Ladderedge (115) it does seem to be dead now.
Actually I'm in the UK and am not directly affected by the problem, and I still care enough about the problem to have gone elsewhere now (well except for this!). For anyone who happens to be lucky to be detected as having a UK address, just think - that could change at any time. You might change your job, the company might change its IT policy, or your ISP itself might just change the way they handle their infrastructure. This could hit anyone, at any time, without warning. It's happened to me in the past.
It's been the arrogance of the way this issue has been handled, the contempt for the users of the website that have forced me away. Anything that's done for the convenience of the BBC rather than the consumer shows that they've entirely lost perspective and understanding of why they're there.
This seriously goes against the requirements laid out in the BBC Charter. However clearly the BBC don't care about its website readers any more, so there's no point in flogging a dead horse any longer.
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So, you know my football team and cricket team. You know which is my closest radio station & my local weather area, you have my postcode, real name, date of birth and gender. And I pay the licence fee. I think you have enough information to guess my news interests, and they are NOT 'What is the most popular story in North America'. Now, is it too much to ask to be able to scan the national and international news on a single page (ideally without adverts) in my tea break?
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Any chance of any further response from the boss? Thought not. Bye.
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Unfortunately I doubt there is a chance of any further update, because that will simply show [again] that the boss has been fed misinformation.
I think it's a poor show when the boss ignores
* the hundreds of posts decrying the changes
* technical people who are convinced the changes aren't necessary
* Ben Metcalfe
In days past, Auntie knew what was best for us. But those days are past, and now it seems she's only interested in an easy life herself.
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Do we really want to get Steve to change his mind? Since weve seen over the past month that he and his tech team dont get it, the way forward is surely to complain to Steves boss, or better, the director-general of the BBC, enclosing a copy of the 2,000 plus complaints.
That way, there is a chance that management comes to realize theres a serious problem, and one that is not at all technical. I suspect BBC management is not fully aware of the proportions of this complaint, and the total absence of technical justification for the change.
Ive worked in a large bureaucracy. When you want a result that just isnt coming, you dont keep complaining to the person youre dealing with. You instead ask their boss for an explanation.
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There are no (plausible) technical reasons at all but it's easy to use technical necessity as an excuse for something else in the hope that your users will just buy the argument. Almost all the responses have come - indirectly - from the IT people and no attempt has been made since to refute claims that Steve has merely been led to believe that changes were technically necessary. This does seem to suggest that no more answers will be forthcoming. Very poor show.
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........ turn off the light when you leave the office............
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The silence is deafening - we are being totally ignored... (as in: if we ignore you, you may go away...)
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We read the blog, but no longer post,
(just in case someone at TVC thinks we've lost interest in the subject).
There seems little point in taking part in a one-way conversation.
As 'he' has nothing more to add, neither have we.
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/clap at Ladderedge. Fudge-ups and a big bucket of sand.
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#123 smuddifr "The silence is deafening - we are being totally ignored" &
#124 Ladderedge "We read the blog, but no longer post"
Too true. Auntie has always been better telling than listening, but her collective arrogance on this issue is truly breathtaking.
Many on the political threads complain about the BBC tax because of its pro-government stance and obsessive unionism but when BBC funding is cut it will be this - the arrogance of a few second-rate techies - that will be traced as the end of the beginning if not the beginning of the end.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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no change... i see.. what is the point in having a blog with comments if nobody takes any notice.. not only do I now have to put up with euro economy, the same goes for health..
I want to read british news not world or american.. and yes I'm typing this in essex and not in michegan
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Perhaps Steve Herrmann can explain why this article is available for BBCOnline UK version, yet not available for BBCOnline Censored version.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8165275.
Okay I agree its not a major story (or even one at all). However the point was we have been told endlessly that the changes didn't affect content and both version contained the same news content.
Well quite clearly this is a lie.
I await with interest (though I doubt Mr Herrmann will bother to answer) why the BBC is bringing in censorship.
What other news items are we missing?
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#128 rjakes
"... why this article is available for BBCOnline UK version, yet not available for BBCOnline Censored version ... Well quite clearly this is a lie."
It goes against the grain to take the side of the BBC on this, as what you write about is exactly what I fear will happen sooner or later. This isn't an example of it, though. Either the BBC (in a link) or you accidentally missed the .stm from the end of the link you quote.
The unmissable Kenneth walks out of Big Brother is available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8165275.stm
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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When you first dictated that I had to use the international version of BBC.CO.UK, I didnt react immediately. However I read all the comments and found that there was 93% negative reaction to your dictate. Trying to be reasonable, I waited before sending my own negative response, but then found that public comment no longer possible. Not surprising really when considering the unpopularity of your actions.
I recently went to your website [it used to be my homepage until you started making me use the international version] to read about Bassas Formula 1 accident. I was amazed to see a little banner stating that the video was there but unavailable to foreign users. A banner no less, but Im sure even the most xenophobic domestic user couldnt be offended at having to read that banner on his domestic version it might even make him happier. Anyway, this was exactly why you claimed that there had to be two separate versions, so that UK users could get everything and international users wouldnt have to be constantly reminded there was other unavailable content, [whether theyve paid for it or not]. I think your dishonesty is showing!
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Still haven't fixed Opera.
How long will this take, or have you just forgotten about it, in the hope people will just go away?
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Still haven't fixed Opera.
I guess this is Opera Mini, rather than Opera. Opera Mini uses a proxy in Norway; BUT it is a well-behaved proxy and does forward the end-user's IP address as it should. So it should be possible for the BBC's geoIP to work out where Opera Mini -- or any service using a well-behaved proxy -- is actually being used.
Another example of shoddy programming, I'm afraid. This isn't rocket science.
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Yes, Opera Mini.
As you said, it's not rocket science, it's worse. It's getting the BBC to admit it has made a mistake.
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Popping back here myself after some weeks away to see if the BBC have come to their senses yet but I guess not.
The reason I return like others is hope, but also because I am still paying for this via my licence so hope the organisation will start to serve its customers and not their own (not very competent) technical staff. With other suppliers, if I choose to leave them, I stop paying. Not so with the BBC and I'm trying to get value for money and the display I prefer, not what is served up because of some dodgy IP lookup.
The good news (pun intended) is that timesonline is very good - I didnt even know about it before this fiasco.
(I'm a London user with a Canadian internet gateway)
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#134
"Not so with the BBC and I'm trying to get value for money and the display I prefer, not what is served up because of some dodgy IP lookup."
Indeed, and it's not just the IP lookup issue, almost all the news content has been paid for by the UK Licence fee payer and (as Steve keeps reminding us) it's all available to those with UK IP numbers but not easily, I'm in the UK, with a UK IP but I can't access - easily - much of the international news content because the BBC is arrogantly insisting that I want to read about UK orientated news that I've probably already listened to or read about, what people were saying way up some two thousand odd comments ago in parts one and two of this blog, editorial decisions, what gets placed on the index pages, were the article gets placed in the 'running order'.
As it is now, in the time it takes me to navigate through the BBC website now I can actually visit the front pages of a few 'international' English language websites that are in competition to the BBC's international version (as was)...
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I've wandered back after a while to see if there's been any improvement (or at least half-decent excuses offered). Surprise surprise, there's not been. The BBC is still under the delusion that you can identify people's location by their IP address (yes, I could get around this issue if I really wanted to, but I shouldn't have to - and for the same reason, anyone abroad really wanting to see UK-only videos can see them).
At the end of the day there's no answer to "It used to work, why doesn't it now?" OK, I had to manually select the UK version, but there has been not one single explanation as to why that's still not feasible, other than some whinging about ads. You don't have to show ads. Anyone abroad selecting the UK edition in order to avoid adverts will simply set up some blocks to avoid them anyway (point me at a Firefox user who doesn't use Adblock, or anyone who actually pays any attention to adverts other than to be annoyed by them).
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Quote BBC News Site:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4492820.stm
"Herrmann's catchwords are 'excellence' and 'creativity'"
and, perhaps, "Silence"?
I wonder of Pete Clifton knows that the headline-
"BBC triumphs in online Oscars"
The BBC has scooped four Webbys in the net awards dubbed the online Oscars.
BBC News Interactive won both the Webby award and the People's Choice in the Best News category.
will never, ever, be seen again.
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It's now been a staggering almost 3 whole weeks since Mr Herrmann last replied to any of the comments on this blog. If that's not downright rude, I don't know what is.
I don't know why they don't just remove this blog if they're hoping we will go away. Does anyone from the BBC actually read these posts any more? It seems not. Why not?
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#138. At 3:55pm on 29 Jul 2009, Give Me A Break! wrote:
"It's now been a staggering almost 3 whole weeks since Mr Herrmann last replied to any of the comments on this blog. If that's not downright rude, I don't know what is."
For all the problems with this blog and the removal of website version choice I can't allow the above to go unchallenged: The facts seem top be that Steve hasn't he blogged elsewhere either, unlike some perhaps he actually manages to take a holiday?!...
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Well in that case couldn't his deputy answer on his behalf, rather than letting the posters just drift for 3 weeks? Or maybe he could have let us know in his last post that he wouldn't be able to reply for the duration of his well-deserved break. Either way it's stll damned rude.
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I agree Give Me A Break! - it is particularly rude when the BBC is a public service organisation. The thing is, IMO, he is stuck for answers. As many posters have said before, he is relaying what his teenage techie geeks are telling him, as he has no IT knowledge at all (IMO), and sheer vanity can not allow him to go back to the site as it used to be...
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perhaps he can't FIND the site anymore?
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Just keeping the thread alive if nothing else, as obviously TPTB can't even be bothered to explain anything!!!!!
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smuddifr wrote..
"Just keeping the thread alive"
..there's life in this thread?
It's not long before it's a calendar-month since 'he' condescended to contribute to this 'blog'.
What goodwill there was, has long since evaporated.
Who cares any more? Helen Bowden, perhaps?
perhaps not, it's holiday-time and there's no-one there.
Perhaps we should all simply walk away. We should take our 'ad-clicks' to another site, we should take our independent opinion and see where it gets us....
NHK TV
SKY TV
Russia Today
Guardian
Times
Independent
FT.com
etc
And, I regret, for those in the UK who, through no fault of their own, 'appear' to be 'foreign', bad luck, and you have to fight your case from your stand-point.
there is no point in arguing the case.
It's a while ago since 'he' wrote the folowing-
quote
"From now on this won't be the case. The button is going, so if you are inside the UK you will simply see the UK version, outside the UK you'll see the international version.
But - and I'm resorting to italics here to stress this - all the same content will be available as now so you'll still be able to get both UK and international news wherever you are."
and
We're not taking away any of the content you can already see.
endquote.
........and at that point he (along with 'others' at TVC, showed they cared not a jot for their regular readers, their regular 'friends (for we were, once, on 'his' side)....
And he mislead everyone.
We could no longer access ALL UK CONTENT.
So,
WE WERE CENSORED.
Simple.
If we were NOT censored, then we could access ALL UK CONTENT.
.... but we can't.
What are we not allowed to read?
Don't come the 'it's all there if you look', because those of us on limited access can't dig into endless sub-pages to find the details. You try it on a dial-up access.
The original arrangement was a 'one-stop-shop' for all those that wanted a customized BBC news Page.
The old way 'worked'.
The new way is horribly unfriendly, unsympathetic, unwelcoming and, above all, makes the readers feel as though they are disenfranchised, as we don't know what we are reading anymore. It's a mess. I can't make it the way I want it to be. It no longer speaks to me.
Do I care?
Well I did, once.
Finally Mr Herrmann, look after your crews and journalists, and get your facts right.
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Good post Ladderedge - it really is disheartening to see the BBC descending into IP addresses when they know it doesn't work. It's like some commercial radio stations who work on IP addresses. How long until the BBC blocks anything other than World Service to foreign internet listeners????!!!!
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I have posted twice before on this and can only agree with what has been already said, but would just like to add the following:
In my last post I said I couldn't access the Sky Iplayer to watch the Ashes as Sky think I am abroad because of my work's IP address (I live in the UK and work for a German based company), so I contacted Sky and they reduced my Sky Sports subscription from £10 to £2 as compensation - yes I said I was cancelling, but they listened to me and acted.
As a license payer I have no such choice, even if I decided never to watch BBC programmes again.
Also because of my German IP, Yahoo think I am from abroad, but doesn't censor what I see and in fact I can now customise my Yahoo homepage with numerous other News sites.
Come on BBC answer one simply question do you actually care??
I doubt it otherwise someone would have replied since Steve's last post on the 9th July!!
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I wonder if the moderator who reads all these before the post is 'published' actually does anything?
Do they report back to a person in authority?
Do they agree with the point we're making?
Perhaps we could start a game with them. "King's knight takes Queen's pawn", Checkmate!
Anything to attract someone's attention!
Sorry- I've lost the plot.
Does anyone there really care? Perhaps the moderation's been 'outsourced' or privatised.
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Love your humour, Ladderedge!!! If it wasn't such a serious point we're trying to get over here, I would be crying with laughter :-)
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your move, smuddifr.
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Like others, I have just had a look at BBC.CO.UK to check whether our comments have had any effect on the arbitrary changes forced upon domestic and international consumers of the website. I must admit that I didnt really think anything would have changed. Im just glad to see that we arent going away! I would like to make a response to Boilerlated s post 135: ..... almost all the news content has been paid for by the UK Licence fee payer.... This is just not true. Below is an excerpt of a snail mail I wrote to White City; you neednt ask if I ever got a reply to that either!
.... The argument that it is unfair for UK licence payers to subsidise international users is spurious at best and cynical or dishonest at worst. Are we really to believe that it costs the corporation a bit more for every single person looking at the website especially if they happen to be abroad at the time? When I was in the UK I paid for a television licence, not a television/radio/computer licence. BBC television available abroad already has advertising so again it is not subsidised by domestic licence payers. Here in the US about 15-20% of PBS broadcasting is foreign mostly British, and produced by the BBC. Taking into consideration that the BBC has sold this programming to foreign broadcasters, this is yet another reason to believe that international viewers actually add to the coffers of the BBC, as opposed to costing the British public anything. Another thing for those less altruistic domestic consumers to consider is this; the international version is not for them anymore. What used to be available and potentially useful, has gone whether they consider they pay for it or not. I can see a stronger xenophobic argument for cancelling all the foreign language services; they are available to and paid for by all domestic users, but useless for a lot of them.
And as for the constant barrage of advertising foreign IP addresses suffer, I think Forcecrags post 136 puts it best: (point me at a Firefox user who doesn't use Adblock, or anyone who actually pays any attention to adverts other than to be annoyed by them). Hopefully advertisers will also get the message!
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"Nicky Campbell test 'super suit'.
"Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory"
*Gasp* I shall have to exist without seeing the item.
I wonder what it was (within this item) that ensured I am prohibited from seeing it?
Censorship, again.
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Ladderedge - another good post: perhaps we should get Watchdog on the case now that Anne Robinson is back fronting it...
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Why am I now "you" and not "smuddifr"?
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smuddifr, you're "smuddifr". I'm "you". Or was that Spartacus?
It's a change to the blog because they think we're not intelligent enough to know what our login names are.
Just like we're not intelligent enough to know that we won't be able to see video which can only be distributed in the UK. Mind you, if it can only be distributed in the UK and the site already knows that I have a foreign IP address, why is it included in the page at all?
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Another site which uses the sledgehammer of geo-IP addresses is YouTube. Because Google won't pay the artists their due, they have banned UK addresses. So those of us who can't see the UK news pages or iPlayer content do at least get to watch music videos.
Pathetic attitude, the BBC are attempting to strangle the world-wide web but at least their actions have granted me the pleasure of the websites for my local paper, The Times and The Guarniad.
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Well, there we are. More than five weeks on the list before it's dropped off the bottom. And exactly a month since the last BBC reply (at #82). At least one of those must be a record, surely?
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I was about to write the same thing yesterday, quiet, isn't it?
Into oblivion.
Well, unhappy readers, I personally think that that's "it". There is no more, we were never going to win the argument.
Defeatist? Well, yes.
Pragmatic? Most definitely.
Perhaps we should form a 'club'.
No, perhaps not, lets go our separate ways, happy in the knowledge we did all we could.
A final message to Steve Herrmann,
"Don't book any tables at awards ceremonies this year".
OK, change the subject.
"Nice weather for the time of year, isn't it?"
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Still just as immensely annoying as it was when this was first announced, but as Ladderedge said it's not being noted anymore so nothing more we can do.
As as an direct-effect of this this is that I've been using the British newspaper websites a lot more in recent weeks.
That would be a good thing, however after Rupert Murdoch announced his intent to start charging for the content it looks like my choices for British-perspective news is shrinking fast.
Just hope BBC don't start charging for their content...oh hang on, they do, and I already pay it in the license fee...so why can't I get the news from the perspective I wish again...?
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Is there a 'tech-person' out there that could create a new version of the home-page just for us?
A sort-of
"Not The BBC News.co.uk"
Oh, sorry, they've done that already.
I'll go away again.
The weather's better isn't it?
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Ladderedge,
I assume you have seen newsarse.com? It has that 'familiar' feel that we miss so much.
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Brilliant. No, I hadn't seen it before.
I felt right at home.
All we need with that site is an un-read editor's blog and it'd be complete.
The sun's come out.
All is right with the world.
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I feel like writing...
"This post is closed to new comments."
It may as well be.
Nobody else in West London is honest or polite enough to say so.
There is certainly no point whatsoever in continuing this farce.
So...
"This post is closed to new comments."
Post closed.
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I am coming back hewre after some time to register the point which I believe is the same for so many here - that I no longer use the BBC site to the same extent that I used to.
My feelings towards the BBC has completely changed - whereas one I would have defended the BBC unreservedly, now I see it in a completely new light. Why? well because of the way this change to the site was done. There was no consultation whatsoever. It was forced on us. when we protested you too no notice and then told us that the change was going to stay anyhow.
Well Mr. Herrmann, you lost the BBC many faithful supporters from the very people who used and trusted the BBC website so much. When it comes to more attacks on the BBC I hope you'll remember our protests NOT to change the site access. Goodbye.
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It's been a while so thought I'd come back on the offchance something new might have happened. Silly me. Nice to see that the sense of community over this issue has continued well though!
As someone who wasn't directly affected by this issue (so far!), but was just upset by the poorly thought out and badly handled approach, I've just had a different perspective on the issue. Having been abroad on holiday for a couple of weeks and occasionally trying to keep up to date with news and sport on my mobile, I thought I'd give the BBC Mobile site a try. Nightmare - probably serves me right for using a Blackberry, but I seemed to be getting out of date information all the time, and was so hard to find the UK news (rather than the world view which I could see on BBC World Service anyway). What a pathetic service. I soon gave up and went elsewhere, and got myself thoroughly depressed by following the cricket simply but reliably on Cricinfo.
I guess we're going to hear no more on this, but it's entertaining to check back every couple of weeks to keep this thread alive just out of sheer cussedness.
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I, too, have been on holiday, and was hoping, at least, that there would be a reply, even one that we didn't like, but, apparently, politeness is something unknown by the powers that be. Are all the staff taking a long July/August break?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/08/score_your_football_team_news.html
Thanks to your forced changes, the above doesn't work.
Joined up thinking at the BBC? Epic Fail.
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I'd just like to echo the reduced usage everyone else has mentioned. The Grauniad comments pages are actually quite entertaining!
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Quote BBC News Web-site......
Last Friday BBC Online held its first Open meeting and I'm very pleased to say we've got a video record of the day in full to share with you. Seetha Kumar, Controller, BBC Online; Nic Newman, Controller, Journalism, BBC FM&T; Chris Kimber, Managing Editor, Audio & Music Interactive and Simon Nelson, Controller, Portfolio and Multi-Platform, BBC Vision presented many of their plans for online over the next six months to an audience made up of BBC Onlines's industry partners, suppliers and regulators. The panel also answered questions at the end of the session. The intention is to hold these sessions every six months and to share them on the Internet Blog.
Two points.
Can't see the video- what have you got to hide?
There was one other question not answered.. wasn't there?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/08/the_open_day_in_full.html
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Maybe a solution, having seen ladderedge's comments on the BBC "open" day, is to spread the word about this ill-informed censorship to as many other blogs as we can appropriately find.
Go on, pre-moderator, let's see whether that breaks the house rules. :)
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Unfortunately dbulbeck the 'open day' blog seems to be maintained to the same professional level as this one.
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.... I am oceandriver, not 'you'
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I haven't read all the comments on this page. However, I will say that I think the BBC should come out with something like www.theyoungturks.com just simple streaming videos that are recorded everyday but constantly loop.
Oh, I did read one or two comments. We should definitely keep this thread alive. Also, does anyone know if I can stream BBC live to my computer? I run Linux, am in South Korea, and use vlc.
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*sigh*
I am currently working for a company which helps produce editorial across platforms and media.
Every time I see a software demo to show how news sites can target their content to customers based on location, I am reminded of the shower of rubbish which has been produced by the BBC, firstly in removing the functionality and subsequently using pathetic smoke'n'mirrors arguments to try and divert attention from the basic fact, that this functionality has been lost.
Apparently, (based on the date of my last post here) it has been over 4 weeks since I visited the BBC News Site. I don't miss it, though.
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Who cares?
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Well, some of us still do.
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Once again the BBC is being dishonest about advertising revenue.."while the BBC is in a privileged position, with guaranteed income from the UK licence-fee payer, the Standard has to chase advertising income.." [from web article: Will making the Standard free pay off? Simon Atkinson,Business reporter, 2 October 2009] As a user in the US, I put up with a lot more advertising from the BBC than any other source. I - and many like me - have pretty much given up on the website because of the amount of it. I wonder what percentage of BBC revenue is derived from advertising and selling programmes. Certainly more than the Standard
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.....hmm, still being pre-moderated. I've only been a "new" member since July. I may be critical but at least I'm honest
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When are you going to fix the IP discrimination for Opera users?
Lies, all lies from the BBC so far.
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iptraveller: All comments are pre-moderated, not just those from new members. This one will be/was, too.
Tengsted: There's no discrimination for Opera users, although there is for Opera Mini. See #131/132. Actually, Steve could pass #132 to his technical bods. Or even offer a job to some of us who do know what we're doing. It certainly shouldn't take four months to get something working.
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Yes, I meant Mini.
Still not fixed, and no sign of it happening, despite promises.
Was there ever an intention to fix it? I doubt it.
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If anyone is reading this, my version of the BBC News web-page is now 33% covered with 'one of those tedious' roll-over adverts and I can't get rid of it, rendering the BBC page illegible. It isn't in my language, and the advert isn't exactly "BBC"-ish.
Quality broadcasting?
Oh, and by the way, I still can't read what I want to read because I'm not allowed to.
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OK guys, here's the next step being rolled out!!!!:
http://beta.bbc.co.uk/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/feedback/
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OK guys, here's the next step being rolled out!!!!:
http://beta.bbc.co.uk/
Oh good grief. It could have been designed by a 15 year old.
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The new beta (should be 'worsa') version still thinks I live in Pakistan.
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Back to "Standard Home Page" is the invitation at the top.
i.e.
Guardian, Independent,...... you name it, anything is better than this latest horrible incarnation.
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Why doesn't the black bar have an option to get remove it, like all the other sections do.
Don't need it, don't want it.
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