MPs' expenses: Your e-mails
Post categories: BBC News website
| 13:50 UK time, Thursday, 18 June 2009
Since the MPs' expenses were published this morning, we've been receiving hundreds of e-mails from people who have spotted things which they want to tell us about.
We've made the expenses claims available on the BBC News website (you can get there via bbc.co.uk/expenses) with the ability to search them by MP's name or by postcode and to click directly through to the relevant page on the parliament site (we've published 646 pages - one for each MP). The searchable list is currently on top of the most-read stories on the site.
We've also asked you to tell us if you notice things you want to bring to wider attention and, when you do, we're then passing the information on to our news teams and the BBC Political Research Unit at Westminster, who are checking, following up and, importantly, putting these points to the relevant MPs for their response.
The results are being published here. It is a great example of many pairs of eyes being better than a few (the principle of what's sometimes described as crowdsourcing), and a good way to tackle the challenge of looking through more than a million receipts.
Steve Herrmann is editor of the BBC News website.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~53~RS~)
Comments
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Why are MPs being hung, drawn and quartered over avoiding (not evading!) capital gains tax on "second" homes? Anybody with two homes may nominate one for the purposes of principal residence relief and that nomination can be changed. This is a nomination as to which of two residences will be subject to CGT relief, it is not a claim that one or other is IN FACT a main home. This is available to anybody, and is actually publicised on the HMRC web site.
This seems to me to be totally different from the question as to whether MPs should have second homes at all. This is a matter for the MPs expenses and allowances system. The fact is that they mostly have had second homes, so CGT relief should be accepted. That is not to say that they should have had second homes.
If MPs make their claims for expenses and allowances using the phrase "wholly necessarily and exclusively for the purposes of...duties as an MP", then I should have thought prosecutions should follow. This phrase is well tested in relation to tax law and is notoriously difficult to satisfy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Looking forward to those at the BBC, who are relishing the abuse of taxpayers money, publishing every penny of what they spend.
What's going on in the House of Commons is dispicable, but those in Glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I would like the BBC to investigate a little further Gordon Brown's 2nd home allowance claims. Particularly as they appear to have flipped from a London residence to a Fyfe residence.
Also why is he claiming £650 for food given he has lived at No 11 & No 10 for the past 12 years. The buck starts at the top !
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Amazing what an easy time the so called impartial BBC is giving Cameron over his expeses.Gordon Edinburgh.
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OK, I am glad to see they have opened up the expenses of our glorious leaders. I have looked at some in general and specifically at my own MP. I have to admit to a certain niave trust when going to check out her expenses, after all she had not achieved any degree of notoriety in the press. Although at this point I do have to point out that I had no idea who my MP was. Having gone through her expenses for the last three years I am stunned by what was 1) Allowed and 2) Claimed. These servants of our nation seem to deem it thier right to squander my money just because the green book says they can. Take this Monthly food bill and utilities, which until very recently just seemed to be a carte blanche to earn a little extra. I dont know about the rest of your readers, but if i put these kind of claims through to my company (which incidentally makes money for our country, not gives it away)I would be met with (in order) amazement, derision, disbelief, anger and in all likelihood my P45. I keep hearing the tired song of "oh but its in the rules" and i am sure it is. No doubt some MP wrote those rules in the first place, or at least had to vote on them along with thier yearly pay increases despite the country's current economic situation. Just because something is allowed, does not mean it should be done. It may be an urban legend but i believe it is still legal to shoot a scotsman in York with a Bow and Arrow, yet i doubt you will see gangs of Robin Hood wannabe's roaming around the Cathedral looking for a Tartan tourist. I would like to see a measure of Justice. not a lot of sorry's and grudging repayments. Who is going to end up in court faced with Fraud? then and only then will i believe the governments and MP's understand just how outraged the public are about these scandals. If anyone is interested and I have a lovely spreadsheet detailing the public money spent on renovating a bathroom with premium materials and a Garden which must rival Kew, if the expense claim form is anything to go by...!
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Certain MPs have spent a great deal of money on their gardens and swimming pools which have little to do with their work and their need for accommodation while in their Constituency or in London.
These properties were not fo the use of their electorates but solely theirs, their families & friends. Indeed many have all the hallmarks of affording 'a house in the country' at the taxpayers' expense.
Since swimming pool and garden maintenance is hardly connected with Parliamentary duties- and a small property would have avoided this cost- surely these expenses should be paid back to the taxpayer or these facilities opened to the Public (we've already paid after all) several days of the week for an equivalent of all the years maintenance has been charged.
In many towns a manicured Public Park garden and a local swimming pool facility just cannot be afforded because of the cost of maintenance and staffing so it sits uneasily that a MP can have us pay for his private manicured lawns and swimming facility when we the Public are being denied the opportunity and the pleasure.
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When are these MPs going to get it that we are sick of their cover-ups and lies about what they did and did not claim for. We are sick of their bleating that they 'did nothing wrong'. We are sick of cover ups. This will not go away and I watch with incredulity as MP after MP is trotted out on the BBC in numerous programs and they don't get a tough time. They need to be made aware of our anger. Unfortunately the BBC panders to these clowns and seem to behave like part of a cosy partnership in ignoring the simmering rage that is going to boil over soon if they continue to treat us with contempt. Do your bloody job and tell them like it is.
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well apart from the bits that are covered up it seems rather light on honesty thus its a publicity stunt by those in westminster that has failed to hit the mark and shows there are those there who have something to hide thus cover up seems to be all it is.
sadly many may be fooled by this white wash but hopefully it will cause those guilty of miss use to resign and own up to illegal activities.
the government fear posting the full truth becouse they know people in this country would be willing to string them up.
is it too much for the voters of this country to know the truth and have a say on how to deal with it.
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Given that our Chancellor lives at number 11 why are we paying nearly £1k per month mortgage repayments? Or is it me?
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I've just been looking a local MPs expenses Jonathan Djanogly the MP for Huntingdon. The more I read, the angrier I'm getting. The claim form clearly states that expenses should be wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred to enable you to stay away overnight away from your only or main home for the purpose of performing your Parliamentary duties.That's plain to me and makes sense.Mr Djanogly is a Solicitor by profession and therefore cannot claim to have not understood the meaning of those words.
The fact that one claim includes £3000 for backdated food without receipts and £800 for 8 weeks cleaning (now that is a well paid cleaner) without receipts is bad enough. The same claim however includes dusters (if I was being paid £100 a week for a bit of cleaning I'd supply my own pigging dusters)candles (wholly, exclusively and necessarily?) and £47 worth of jam making equipment!! Add to that over £550 on saucepans that I assume are never used by the rest of the family who happen to live in his second home (exclusively)
When MPs say they were acting within the rules THEY ARE LYING. They only have to read their own bloody claim form to know they were breaking the rules.
Mr Djanogly, please tell us who you were paying £100 a week to without a receipt for cleaning your house. Any hand written scrap would have done. You managed to get receipts for the (wholly, exclusively and necessarily) removal of leaves.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
About kitty Ussher
It says in our local paper she was giving up her seat at the next election anyway, if that was the case why did she take up her new ministerial role 12 days ago and undergo renevations to her new London Home,
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WHY are WE paying for these second homes so they can sell them on and pocket the cash .
Surely it would be better to hand back the second home,to the goverment, when they no longer work for Parliment?
This would then build a portfolio of properties that can be given to new members of parliment .
Not to mention the fact that there would not be a continual claim for mortgage repayments.Once the house was paid for no more repayments...
How really silly...
I have no faith in the system we need a real change not just a shuffling of the guard!
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I think MPs should be given flats or rooms to use whilst in London and these should be subject to certain expense claims - but any other properties they own should be paid for solely by themselves.
I also think any monies returned should be ploughed into improving the NHS and healthcare.
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It was interesting to see that Eric Pickles - MP for Brentwood & Ongar finds it necessary to have a second home considering how close Brentwood actually is to London anyway.
Brentwood is full of commuters making use of the frequent and easy access to London by train.
Why can't he?
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At one end of the scale we have the extravagance of some MPs and at the other end the apparent meanness - how about claiming for a postage stamp? This ranks with dear Ms. Smith's bath plug at 88p.
My MP - David Gaulke (SW Herts) was late paying the ground rent and service charge on his second home. The cost to us? - He claimed 103.95 - so we pay for his incompetence - not a great deal of money - but to me indicates a cavalier attitude to the use of OUR money. Your fault David - pay it back David. At least Dick Turpin bothered to wear a mask!
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Is this legal ?
I have just looked at MP expenses
1 I notice a certain MP does not have a metered water supply, although has a swimming pool.
2 I also note that the same MP shares a lot of his receipts with another person, but does not half the bill.
3 This MP claims for his second home and when it comes to vote, he claims his scond home is his main residence and his wife gets her Postal vote sent from this home to their main home.
3 Claimed for security gates, but replaced the front garden gate instead
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I guess MP's addresses of their primary and second homes have been blanked out for 'security' reasons? Shame really as we can't identify whether or not they really need a second home. My pint is that if you register as employed with the Jobcentre - you're expected to be prepared to commute for an hour at either end of the day - and obviously at your own expense. If it's good enough for us mere mortals then why shouldn't the same rules apply to them? Or is it they're generally too inebriated after a hard day in the bars and restaurants? It can be that they're worn out after a hard day in the chamber - from what I've seen on most days it's empty!!
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"We've made the expenses claims available on the BBC News website (you can get there via bbc.co.uk/expenses)"
Nick, is that sub-site available to people outside the UK (seeing that it's a *.co.uk domain), I know someone who is abroad at the moment who has been following the BBC's coverage of this, he is a UK citizen, on the UK voting registrar, if it's not I won't bother emailing him the URL if he is just going to waste money in the local internet cafe trying to access something that is unavailable outside the UK.
Oh, and yes this is an on-topic question, before anyone gets itchy fingers.
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it is clear some members abused their position,it is also in my opinion obvious the remainder were aware of this situation.for people in the government to turn a blind eye tars them all with the same brush.until parliament is brought into the 21st century and the country run in a buisiness like manner,the wrong people in the job for the wrong reasons will continue to bring this country to its knees.
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#8
"Since swimming pool and garden maintenance is hardly connected with Parliamentary duties- and a small property would have avoided this cost- surely these expenses should be paid back to the taxpayer or these facilities opened to the Public"
A valid point, considering (as I understand it) a young family who are claiming JSA and then make a claim for extra money so that they can use the local laundrette is asked if they have access to a bath or similar were washing could be done by hand...
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#11. At 5:10pm on 18 Jun 2009, oakwood47 wrote:
"Given that our Chancellor lives at number 11 why are we paying nearly 1k per month mortgage repayments? Or is it me?"
Because he took the Mortgage out before he was made Chancellor, and if he had lost his job last week he would have moved back to the property I suspect - 'Grace and favour' accommodation is like Tied-Cottages used to be, loose your (Cabinet) job and you loose your house!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#25. At 8:56pm on 18 Jun 2009, cherub23 wrote:
"After checking out my local MP, Laura Moffatt, I am amazed to see that she has claimed for two electricity bills in February and May and then in June there is a final reminder for the same electricity bills which was also paid out. So she has been paid twice for both of these bills... I am not an MP nor an accountant but I spotted this within minutes... why on earth were these simple things not spotted at the time?"
More to the point, why was the reminder sent out by the utility companies on a paid bill (quite possibly a bill that had already been paid twice) - I mean what would frail, confused, little old Dories do when presented with a 'Final Demand', probably panic, pay again and then starve herself for the next month. Perhaps the MP was just testing the utilities billing system out, just how honest these utility companies are, would they return the overpayments or just credit the account and pocket the interest... [/irony]
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I was just looking at charles kennedy and it seems he likes to claim for cigs ie two packets at £5.50 each just gets better the more you read.
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Note sure if this, 'escaped URL' will be allowed but I made me laugh, a bit of expenses humour from Royal Ascot via the Daily Telegraph, I've linked direct to the image file as the TD front page might change.
www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01426/ascot220_1426595f.jpg
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like everybody else who takes a job, they become responsible for there own expenses. You take a job in London but live in Hamilton you would have to pay your own travel costs. Why don't they build a halls of residence for all mps it would be cheaper than paying for second homes. Plus all food claims should be outlawed. Anyway how do i become an MP.
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#29. At 9:30pm on 18 Jun 2009, millarat wrote:
"Why don't they build a halls of residence for all mps it would be cheaper than paying for second homes. Plus all food claims should be outlawed."
They need to be in two places basically at the same time, also second homes - remembering that MPs might need to be in London at the weekends, especially if in the ministerial position or it's shadow - need to accommodate not only the MP but his or her family, sorry but anyone who thinks that a - for example - sales rep spending time away from home is comparable to the needs of an MP just doesn't understand requirements of the job that we the electorate put on MPs...
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Can the BBC please recommend to MP's that they consult price comparison websites for their mobile, telephone, electric, & gas bills? I'm more flabbergasted at how hideously high their bills are!
Get Martin Lewis on the case ;)
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I don't pretend to understand about politics or what MP's actually do, but you are paid a wage like every other worker within britain. The only differance is we the public pay for our own food and expenses and also a MP's food and expenses. I don't mind paying for office equipment, I don't mind paying for bottled water for the meeting table. What I do mind is paying for people to take me for a free ride. you take the job you pay your own way. Halls of residance may not work for the familty MP but a flat would. Buying a copy of the fishing news or the racing times what part of this is caused by the requirment we the public place on them? Do I also have to buy fags because we cause the MP so much stress. Pray tell.
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I have also noted that a 24 case of diet coke seems to be the in thing.
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I notice that a freeview box costs £76 pounds in London what is the Scottish exchange rate. We can get them for £20 in a leading supermarket. Or was it a harrods model. People can stick up for MP's all they want but the free ride must stop and legal action must be taken.
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#31
"Can the BBC please recommend to MP's that they consult price comparison websites for their mobile, telephone, electric, & gas bills?"
I suspect many MPs would love to have the time to do so...!
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Check out Diane Abbot wasting £296 for only one month of a phone contract on her iPhone. £200 of which was spent surfing the internet and downloading things. Surely she could have popped into an internet cafe or used a local library?
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Why are we paying £400 for Adam Afriyie to go on a Write Better Write Now course?
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You should check out Diane Abbots tea bill she likes her twinnings and fruit teas. Maybe internet cafes don't sell that brand.
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All of the Sinn Fein MPs (Gerry Adams, Pat Doherty, Martin McGuinness, Michelle Gildernew and Conor Murphy) have claimed EXACTLY the same amount for second homes against invoices that are exactly the same (except for the names), same layout, same typeface, same wording - obviously we can't see whether it's the same address. This has to be dodgy. Have they ever even taken their seats in the House?
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having checked on the expense claims of my mp, for mole valley, i am a little annoyed to find they have claimed for a second home which is also a business , i don't understand why they need a second home when we live approximatley 30 minute drive into london.
I can't understand why the expenses are needed anyway as mp's already earn exceptionally high wage anyway, maybe they should try living on the same wage as me , at least then claiming expenses would seem acceptable for neccesary things such as travel, and other work related expenses but like i've said previously most of us pay for travell to work ourselves and we have to survive on our wages and a pitance in tax credits.
in my job we were told we would not be getting even a small wage rise and then you get mp's who already earn way more than the normal hard working person claiming off of our tax, how can that be fair.
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Here's a thought why don't all MP's use the same phone network and get free calls between them. Oh sorry that would save money.
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How do MP's continue to get away with it? In any other business, if you commit fraud you are liable to prosecution and imprisonment. MP's say they did wonder if they would be allowed the monies but it was within the rules - therefore they knew it was wrong to accept money under false pretences. How can they sleep in their beds knowing that pensioners and many millions of unemployed in our nation are on or below the bread-line, whilst they flaunt money unnecessarily. If they need a second home, it should be in London and they need nothing more than a one bedroomed flat - family don't need to live there. Many people work away from home but don't get a second home allowance. Their first home should be in their constituency and paid for out of their earnings, like anyone else does. How long has this gone on for, they must owe us billions? I need to retire but can't afford to, they owe me so much.
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Diane Abbot must have been looking at that iphone too long or maybe drinking too much tea since she needed 6 boxes of 12 nurofen. Time she seen a doctor i think. It is totally shocking what we are being charged for.
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I am utterly amazed that MP's should think that they are above the law and the people of the UK. If I acted in the irresponsible way that they have I would either in jail for fraud or be dismissed by my employer. There is no way that I could calim for expenses in such a way. I need receipts to support the claims and to accept giving explanations about the claims I have made.
As a taxpayer I feel cheapened by their actions, I have to work very hard to earn my salary and do not take to kindly to MP claiming for work undertaken at their homes, mortgages, luxuries and food that I would normally have to find out of my pay. Why should they think that they are any different to everyone else in the country.
All MP's are a disgrace and they all should be replaced. Resigning from a job means they should leave Parliament completely and forego all their pensions and pay. That is waht is expected when I give in my notice of work.
Repaying what they have fraudently claimed is a way of being redeemed, it just shows their guilt and comtempt for the public.
Why don't they all go, we would be better off.
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As far as iam reading and listening to all the complaints about mps expenses.
when are we as a nation going to demand that they resign without getting there pay-off and pensions.
After all if any employee was to claim expenses improperly we would most likely lose our jobs which would mean no pay-off or pension.
TIME THE PEOPLE LET THE GOVERNMENT KNOW WHO THEY ARE SERVING.
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As much as the expenses scandal has angered me I do not like the "grass up your MP" approach any more than I liked the "grass up your neighbour" campaign so beloved by benefit deliverers and local authorities.
The place to deal with misappropriation of public funds is via an audit, then the police or, if need be, the fraud office. As #7 indicates there are various laws in place precisely to prevent public servants (such as MPs) from stealing.
What is crucial in the campaign to STOP MPs claiming inappropriately is a tightening up and simplicity of rules, in addition to making an example of sufficient numbers of them via criminal action. This exercise, if it fails to deliver justice, will simply indicate to MPs that our anger is not enough to stop them doing precisely what they please.
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#42
"if you commit fraud you are liable to prosecution and imprisonment."
Evidence permitting of course, and I'm sure that if it could be proved that anyone within the Palace of Westminster has broken the law they will face the same court as you or I would - indeed some have - John Stonehouse for example, or are you just mixing, up poor regulation allowing for inappropriate items to be claimed for with something more serious?...
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Im going out to buy a computer and send the bill to westminster. I need it so i can write to them so it should be okay. I'll just call it a grand be fine.
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#43 "millarat", you seem obsessed with Diane Abbot...
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If it took Cameron such a long and harduous time to check his expenses how will he fair when he is running the country. Has the man the stamina for the real job?
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I think the mods fell asleep
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Reading through these comments I can understand the Angelo-Saxon past love affair with bear-baiting, public floggings an executions etc, what is going on within this blog is a modern version!
I bet that number of the people who has commented tonight would, had then been elected an MP, claimed for exactly the same sorts of things - because the rules allowed it...
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I am not obsessed just can't belive what she claims for i'm working my way down the list slowly. I'm on Nick Ainger now. As for Boilerplated are you on the MP pay role or something.
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Whats Boilerplated's real name so I can look up his/her expenses.
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If I was an MP, i would claim for things needed for office not for things I would expect to buy using my wage, like food and furnature plus if i took the job i would expect to pay for my travel. Public flogging what a great idea boilerplated where would we hold them, do you think we could claim the whips on expenses.
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As a taxpayer, why did I buy Geoffrey Hoon a £6 pair of Speedo Massage Pool Shoes? (Receipt date 9 June 2007 claimed against 'Household expenses'). Does having nicely massaged feet allow him to conduct himself more effectively whilst treading the corridors of power? If so, my concern is that they might not go with his suit, and perhaps he should look to buy a nice paid of matching speedo trunks to set them off.
If I wanted a lovely pair of pool shoes, perhaps to go to the annual work's beach party, I'm not sure my boss would sign the expenses claim. On that basis, why should Mr Hoon expect us to pay for his?
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Please could someone tell me how it is that ministers can be paid expenses when their submission is not accompanied by a valid receipt? (several examples are showing in MP's exes - in the first pages for instance of Gordon Browns is a claim for £57 for laundry - page shows 'lost receipt').
When I was working for others if I lost a receipt and wished to claim expenses - tough luck - no receipt - no reimbursement. In fact I know of few companies who would pay.
In any business the tax man may go so far as to disallow any item claimed as a business expense if one cannot produce a valid receipt of proof
What is it that makes ministers exempt from such a situation? It is after all our money.
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Food Expenses
Why are MP's claiming for food when away from their main homes ?
It is not an additional expense.
They have to buy food, it makes no difference if it is at a local (main
home)supermarket or one near London.
A good money saving measure would be to take a packed lunch.
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Also, I saw something on the TV earlier about gadgets that the MPs claim for - chainsaws, MP3s and SatNavs were among the favourites.
Geoff Hoon - sorry, don't mean to pick on him, but just looking at his claims, bought himself a lovely DVD recorder with a 250GB HDD on 25 March 2006 for £267.97. Sorry did I say that he bought it himself? Actually I meant that I bought it for him. I'd like one of those. What's wrong with a video recorder? In 2006, you could get one for £20 at Tesco. Again, if wanted to buy one, I'm sure I wouldn't get my boss to pay for it, even if I said I wanted to tape the lunch time financial news coz it was relevant to my job...
These guys should pay for their own expensive tastes. I have a couple of young kids, and money is tight. If I want something like a DVD player, I make do with what is the best value for money. The problem here is that there are no rules to tell them that they should 'spend smart' in order to gain value of taxpayers' money - and that still doesn't mean that Mr Hoon can sponge a DVD recorder off me.
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Margaret Beckett - £1421.75 for "tree and hedgeworks"? Can she explain why it was necessary to have weekly gardening in October? By my calculation in the 07/08 receipts there are 30 receipts for gardening making a total of £1320 in addition to the £1421 for the cutting of what i can only assume are very fragile hedges. HOW ON EARTH is over £2500 on gardening considered necessary for her role as an MP? It beggars belief!
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OMG - Now Hoon's got himself a £750 TV, and £180 of digital TV receiver. This boy ust love his TV.
Now, if MPs are as busy as 'Boilerplated' suggests they are, some of them even have to work at weekends aparently, when will Mr Hoon ever get time to watch it?
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I have said for years the state is attempting to control us and the information it sees fit for us to have access to, This secrecy is a defence mechanism of the controlling class that supposedly represent the populus of this country. I believe that the state has knowlege of our lives to the minutest detail, and in knowlege is power, for us not to have knowlege emasculates the populus and so maintains the upper hand the state perpetuates and requires to control us. This expose shows how vulnerable these autocrats are when a little of their sercets are displayed for all to see. An attempt to black out the detail of expenses by the civil service under instruction from above, will only do more damage to the house, they have shown themselves to be totally out of touch with the mood of the country, which is perfectly displayed by our out of touch Prime Minister and his Cronies.
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There is a culture to do as little as possible for as much as you can get! The MP's are experts at it!
It's time they take their jobs seriously. It's not enough to say they made a mistake. MP's are responsible to the british public, we pay them to provide a good and honest service to the people of it's country, we don't pay them to fill their pockets!!!
MP's should not be getting away with this. The public should make the final decision as to how they should be punished. The tax paying public should also get a compensation (for all our hard work going to waste), it's only fair!
I don't earn much, but I manage to pay for my living cost with the money I earn, like most people do. What makes MP's think they are any different. If they can't manage to live with what they earn (Its not like its peanuts!) then how can they be trusted to mange the country with peanuts (as they always tell us) that's left over after expenses!
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Mr Hoon certainly likes his tech and seems to enjoy nothing more than kicking back and enjoying a good movie. In August 07 he decided it was time for us to treat him to a £700 home cinema system. Well Geoff, i hope you enjoyed it - watch any good war movies?
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It's time that rules were changed, in particular the one that states that all MPs, Councillors etc have to advertise every roadshow, meeting or whatever in their local press. The majority of people don't read their local paper, they get their news online, from a poster in the local shop, or local pub. Looking at Malcolm Bruce MP, Gordon, you will see that a huge amount of his expense claims are for advertising or printing.
And I won't start on why ONE man can eat his way through 400 GBP of food in his London home each month!
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Throughout all the news reports and discussion surrounding MP's expenses, not once have I heard the words "gross misconduct" mentioned. Whilst MP's may try to excuse their actions by saying the rules allowed them to act in such a dishonest manner, didn't any of them feel they had a moral duty to speak out against the system? Their greed is inexcusable, sets the worst example to the public and should have led to instant dismissal for those who cannot justify the expenditure in necessary to carry out their work. We must make sure this isn't allowed to go away quietly. The only solution is for the public to speak with one voice and make a General Election happen so we are given the opportunity to choose those who will act for us, not for themselves.
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if the average Brit was only half as outraged by the expenses as, say, currently, an average Iranian is re. their vote, wouldn't we be seeing tens of thousands of people surrounding Westminster? talk is cheap.
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Who pays £89 for a mouse?! George Galloway, apparently. And it looks as if he has been charged twice for VAT, so the total cost to me is £111.63p - more than a day's wages. For me, that is. Not for him. Obviously.
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maggieclem #66.
"The only solution is for the public to speak with one voice and make a General Election happen so we are given the opportunity to choose those who will act for us, not for themselves."
honestly, what choice do we have? they're all of the same ilk.
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#59. At 11:50pm on 18 Jun 2009, Gojuryu5 wrote:
"Geoff Hoon - sorry, don't mean to pick on him, but just looking at his claims, bought himself a lovely DVD recorder with a 250GB HDD on 25 March 2006 for 267.97. Sorry did I say that he bought it himself? Actually I meant that I bought it for him."
Sorry, you bought it for him, if you didn't approve why did you 'sign the cheque'? Or do you actually mean that you contributed about 0.000000001 pence towards it, oh please, do stop all this hyperbolic fake disgust...
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#60. At 11:59pm on 18 Jun 2009, snaresbrook75 wrote:
"Can she explain why it was necessary to have weekly gardening in October?"
Perhaps you need to listen to radio four and Gardeners Question time, then you would understand that not only is garden maintenance an all year task but also that hedge and tree pruning is done in the autumn... Not that I'm saying that such expenditure is justified, just that complaining about something you obviously understand little about is not the best way of validating your complaint!
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#61. At 00:06am on 19 Jun 2009, Gojuryu5 wrote:
"Now, if MPs are as busy as 'Boilerplated' suggests they are, some of them even have to work at weekends aparently, when will Mr Hoon ever get time to watch it?"
Hence the digital video recorder, I suspect! Oh and sometimes, like many in certain jobs, especially public/media employment, people are required to watch programmes as part of their work or to keep up with 'events' dear lad, you would soon be complaining if he didn't do that, 'not knowing what was going on in the world, how ridiculous, I though he was meant to be a politician'...
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#67. At 04:05am on 19 Jun 2009, jr4412 wrote:
"if the average Brit was only half as outraged by the expenses as, say, currently, an average Iranian is re. their vote, wouldn't we be seeing tens of thousands of people surrounding Westminster? talk is cheap."
Could it be that Iranians have a real grievance, rather than much hot air and hyperbolic anger by people in the UK at not being able to play the same rules...
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#69. At 04:34am on 19 Jun 2009, jr4412 wrote:
"honestly, what choice do we have [at an election]? they're all of the same ilk."
If you're such an upstanding person there is nothing to stop you from standing for parliament, run on an 'anti-sleaze' ticket and you might find people put up the funds for your deposit and campaign expenses etc...
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I have just looked at the 2007-8 expenses for Alan Beith, a much revered MP for North Northumberland, and nothe the he has claimed for £117000 second home and that his wife, a Lord, has claimed £60000 for the same home. Seems to me that the only solution is to vote the lot out next election. It also makes me wonder just how much the MEP's are ripping us off and what value they are as there seems to be no contact with them or any debate on the new and unnecessary laws foisted on us byu the Brussels dictators.
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#74
I guess that is why the main parties need so little money to run their campaigns is it? I mean, all you have to do is stump up some cash and get a few nominations and you are away. Forget the family, your job, and your previous lifestyle you are going to Westminster (or not as the case may be).
Once upon a time, shortly after "universal" suffrage, it was possible to stand quite easily and there were jobs available if your bid failed. But, I am afraid, our party system soon wrecked simplicity in favour of protectionism. There are solutions but only if we really want true democracy.
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I have to comment on Boilerplated...They just HAVE to be either an MP or in an MP's press office. There is no way an average member of the public would put this much effort into defending the MP's expenses. The thing to remember about these expenses is that they may be in the letter of rules, but definitely NOT in the spirit of the rules. On one of the first pages of the green book is the statement to MP's about claiming their expenses.
"...expenses wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred when staying overnight away from their main UK residence (referred to below as their main home) for the purpose of performing Parliamentary duties."
In the many Blogs posted people are siting examples of building renovations and gardening projects being undertaken with Taxpayer funding.
The onus is primarily on the MP to know right from wrong and understand that having that perfect shade of bark bordering his manicured lawn is not a necessity which will help him or her perform thier function (presumably sleeping) any better. Please stop trying reply with flimsy excuses to cover up blatant misuse of our money.
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#76. At 07:50am on 19 Jun 2009, Humblebeginnings wrote:
"There are solutions but only if we really want true democracy."
Or indeed a true political mess, it's actually possible to have to much democracy, nothing gets agreed, governments are always falling, policy is always lurching from one side of the pendulum to the other meaning that costs rise and even more tax-payers money gets wasted...
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Why on earth do we have to give MP's expenses anyway? I have looked at the list of the things they get for just being an MP and I am gobsmacked that they are allowed to claim for everything else. I would love a job where I could legitimately bank my salary and just live on expenses and the perks. It is about time that it was stopped and to stop it who do we have to ask, The MP's !! catch 22 or what!!!!
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Can we please stop this pathetic witch hunt? It has become a ridiculous farce that would be amusing were it not for the fact that it is seriously affecting the MPs' abilities to do the job that we democratically elected them to do. I want my MP in Parliament and in his constituency helping to promote our area, to save jobs, to help get us out of the economic troubles we are in. Not fending off questions from every pedant in the land about an expense claim for cheesy biscuits! For all I know, it was part of a larger bill to host a constituency reception, but of course the media won't tell you this. They prefer to present 'the facts' with no explanation, knowing that it is human nature to draw the very worst conclusions from 'the facts'. I admired the Telegraph for a good bit of investigative journalism, but they have now stooped to the level of the red-tops with their insinuations and accusations. They have run the expenses issue on the front pages for weeks now, trying to wring every last drop out the issue and in doing so they have undermined their own credibility. The expense system needs to work, we need to know it works, and that's all. Anyone claiming fraudulently should be dealt with by the disciplinary system, and if necessary by the judiciary. Not by the media. Let's not forget that media barons are very rich themselves, and many have their own quasi-political agendas. They are unelected, yet it seems that they are pulling the strings of our elected Govt and this is hugely worrying. The Govt should stop pandering to them, draw a line under the matter, promising and delivering a robust expenses system, and get on with their real work.
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Oh dear..
#67. jr4412 wrote:
"...if the average Brit was only half as outraged by the expenses as, say.."
#73. Boilerplated wrote:
Could it be that Iranians have a real grievance, rather than much hot air and hyperbolic anger by people in the UK at not being able to play the same rules...
Just how cynical can one man be..? On the one side Boilerplated says we dont have a real grievance. In the next breath is the statement we would all be doing the same thing. All those with no moral compass perhaps Boilerplated.. MP for which constituency exactly..?
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#77
"I have to comment on Boilerplated...They just HAVE to be either an MP or in an MP's press office."
Not at all, and if the BBC wants to organise a "Jeremy Kyle" style lie detector test, bring it on... Could it be that I just think about the issues and don't allow mess the hysteria to cloud my thoughts?... Also I have never defended things like Duck Houses etc.
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In reply to comments made @ #80
"Can we please stop this pathetic witch hunt? It has become a ridiculous farce that would be amusing were it not for the fact that it is seriously affecting the MPs' abilities to do the job that we democratically elected them to do. ..//.. Let's not forget that media barons are very rich themselves, and many have their own quasi-political agendas."
Well said, and lets not forget that until this 'expenses scandal' broke the heat was on the financial and banking institutions, much of that heat coming from MPs themselves...
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Me thinks Boilerplated protests too much. And clearly he/she has lots of time on his/her hands - so id say politics is top of the list of likely employment.
Boilerplated - can you explain to me in what way having a well manicured garden is required or necessary in order to fulfil duties as an MP? If you can, i am more than happy to send Mrs Beckett a nice little shrub she can add to her mini-Kew.
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#84
"Boilerplated - can you explain to me in what way having a well manicured garden is required or necessary in order to fulfil duties as an MP?"
In the same way that you, assuming that you have a garden, will have a well manicured garden - we are talking about their homes, yes it might be their 'second' home but they still have to live there, why should they live in a tip, property maintenance still has to be carried out...
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The difference Boilerplated is that i actually pay for my own garden - I dont go round my neighbours asking them to stump up the cash!
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I would very much like to know the percentage of MP's that have not been involved in this MP expenses scandal. I am not sure if everyone is involved or whether it is a minority or majority of MP's. It would be nice if the paper could publish on line a list of MP's not involved.
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It was interesting to note that my MP Des Browne claimed £5000 for something called Labour Party Properties Ltd. (page 32) of 2007 - 2008.
Perhaps the BBC could investigate ?
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I don't understand the minds of business/economics reporters. Today an article about UK motor vehicle production being down. It compared May 2009 with May 2008 and showed unsurprisingly, a massive drop. Yes, this is news but we all know we are in a massive recession. Surely we now want to know comparisons with previous recent months so we can judge if things are improving or otherwise. Time and again, You the BBC reports comparative figures that show the worst scenario because it is more sensational often neglecting the underlying real situation
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I love Boilerplated. He's top Beelzebub in the Devils Advocates Club.
Now, must be off, Jonathan Djanogly (Conservative maj. 12,847)has made me some jam.
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How many bloggers have complained to the Metropolitan Police about potential fraud in relation to MP's expenses?
What responses did you receive from the police?
Are you aware of case law (Blackburn vs Regina)where a complaint was made about a Metropolitan Police Commissioner not enforcing the Gaming Act? It established the principle that the Police cannot set aside the law. This suggests to me, if allegations of fraud are put before the police and they don't act, members of the public can take the police to court.
Finally, does anybody know if Misfeasance in Public Office applies in relation to the expense claims and the degree of diligence applied to managing, reviewing, challenging or authorising them? (I'm just wondering why no Senior Civil Servants have been sacked.)
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Further investigation - over the last 4 years Des Browne has, through the taxpayer, paid out £19,000 to Labour Party Properties Ltd
A new type of political levy?
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Best way to deal with this housing claims fiasco for second homes is to buy a block of flats, furnish them with the basics they need, which is no more than you'd get in a basic budget hotel room, plus a cooker and fridge. If they want anything extra, then it comes out of their own pockets. If they were at home, they'd have to buy their own food, so why should it be different when they are in London? No wonder our taxes and council taxes are so ridiculously high with this kind of money hand out culture going on!
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Last year I tried to get a petition listed on the 10 Downing Street web-site which was rejected (on 30/06/09) on the grounds it was, "Outside the remit or powers of the Prime Minister and Government." The petition stated:
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to: provide an unqualified assurance that all current & previous members of the Houses of Commons & Lords serving from 2001 until the present day have fully met their obligations in respect of payment of all personal taxation including any in respect of limited companies or limited liability partnerships. In the event that such an unqualified assurance cannot be given, we require HM Inspector of Taxes to commence immediate investigations into the tax affairs of all members of the Houses of Commons & Lords.'
I think the content of the petition remains highly relevant.
As the Prime Minister is the First Lord of the Treasury, I would have thought such a request was well within his remit. Perhaps, somebody knew the game was up?
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I, too, have been outraged by the judgment of our MPs concerning their expenses but I now feel I need to know how this culture came about. Do BBC journalists know - was it a case of the MPs couldn't give themselves a pay-rise so decided to allow themselves generous expenses? If so, when did it start (pre-1997?) and how do today's expenses compare to those allowable in the past? Also, how does the Fees Office figure in all of this? Does the media have access to ask them questions? I have read snippets of information on this in Private Eye but wonder if other members of the media are investigating it.
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#87. At 10:08am on 19 Jun 2009, snaresbrook75 wrote:
"The difference Boilerplated is that i actually pay for my own garden - I dont go round my neighbours asking them to stump up the cash!"
Nor are you required to live in two places at the same time, at the tax payers behest, so that they can complain that they haven't the gumption to sort out their own personal problem with the DWP or NHS etc. and have to pass their problems onto their MP...
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I sometimes wonder if the MP's are deliberately shooting themselves in their collective feet, or are they being manipulated?
In no way can yesterdays' revelation of acres of black inc be called "transparency" in any way or form.
If they are trying to see how far they can make fools of the British public, then I would suggest they should beware. The day of the election draws ever more near, or if things get really get the public's hump up, open revolt.
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Have been following MPs' expenses claims closely. However, can't find Speaker Martin's. Is it my fault? Hope someone will poit out my mistake. ACC.
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I have been wondering why nobody has been prosecuted.
Now I have seen the available evidence I can see their problem.
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I have looked at several MP's expense logs. At least one MP has requested NECTAR rewards catalogue. On further investigation, many of the suppliers of stationery, computer equipment and mobile telephone providers are on the NECTAR rewards list. Two questions ... a). are the MP's benefitting from these rewards ?
b). would the rewards be classed as taxable benefits by HMRC ?
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Why does Stewart Jackson from Peterborough need a Blackberry mobile phone to conduct his duties ? -
Surely an ordinary mobile phone would be quite adequate.
I also see some of his receipts are in in his wife's name. So I would have to ask why does his wife not pay for the items out of her own very well paid Salary from the Daily Express?
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Someone should inspect or stock check these three cameras to check the MP still owns them and has not sold them / given them away to family or friends. With mobile phones being able to take pictures why does he need three cameras? Here is the story below:
East Devon MP Hugo Swire claimed for a £327.94 digital camera from Harrods. He actually bought two more in the same year - from Dixons and Jessops. Mr Swire explained that he likes to carry one in his briefcase and also have one in his office and one at home
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The MP should regularly prove he still has possesion of these and justify the need for three cameras. Complete misuse of public money.
David from East Devon points out that East Devon MP Hugo Swire claimed for a £327.94 digital camera from Harrods. He actually bought two more in the same year - from Dixons and Jessops. Mr Swire explained that he likes to carry one in his briefcase and also have one in his office and one at home
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ANN COFFEY -- Lost a digital camera and claimed the new one at £169.99 ...surely her insurance should have covered that, why should the tax payer pay for her carelessness? Would none of her constituents have a camera they could have lent her to take the few photos needed? Has she not got a camera on her phone?
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Maria Miller -- The Conservative MP for Basingstoke £154.61 for books in Feb 08...books on Tony Blair such as Blair Unbound, Blair's Britain.
Could she or any other MP who has claimed for books not have borrowed these free of charger from their local (Tax Payer Funded) Library??
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One might assume from the public objections MPs are raising about the censorship of published expenses, that they had no say in whether or not their own details should be blighted with the rash of black rectangles that make the published details look more like an exhibition at Tate Modern.
These are the same MPs who publicly criticised the 'system' that they had been happily milking since they came to Parliament. I would take these hollow objections with a pinch of salt if my salt consumption were not already approaching dangerously high levels.
Their concerns that the censorship will further damage public faith in the integrity of MPs are well founded. However, their naive hope that anyone will really believe that the censorship was imposed upon them against their will is sadly misguided.
Their protests of innocence stand up like a column of jelly.
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"26. At 9:16pm on 18 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
#25. At 8:56pm on 18 Jun 2009, cherub23 wrote:
"After checking out my local MP, Laura Moffatt, I am amazed to see that she has claimed for two electricity bills in February and May and then in June there is a final reminder for the same electricity bills which was also paid out. So she has been paid twice for both of these bills... I am not an MP nor an accountant but I spotted this within minutes... why on earth were these simple things not spotted at the time?"
More to the point, why was the reminder sent out by the utility companies on a paid bill (quite possibly a bill that had already been paid twice) - I mean what would frail, confused, little old Dories do when presented with a 'Final Demand', probably panic, pay again and then starve herself for the next month. Perhaps the MP was just testing the utilities billing system out, just how honest these utility companies are, would they return the overpayments or just credit the account and pocket the interest... [/irony]"
Er... could it also be that Little Ms Moffat not only inadvertently claimed twice for electricity bills but also (inadvertently, of course) forgot to actually PAY them? As we have seen of late, such "errors" are not uncommon in Pariament.
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#104. At 4:11pm on 19 Jun 2009, ROBERTRS wrote:
"Why does Stewart Jackson from Peterborough need a Blackberry mobile phone to conduct his duties ? -
Surely an ordinary mobile phone would be quite adequate."
For that matter why have a mobile phone, in fact why have a fixed phone line in the home or office, why not make the MP use the public call box on the corner at the junction of York and Market Street?!..
You are aware of the functionality of a Blackberry mobile phone, the fact that the MP can access or be sent documents whilst away from the office - indeed even in the commons chamber it's self, during debates etc.
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#108. At 4:40pm on 19 Jun 2009, mark_tyneside wrote:
"Could she or any other MP who has claimed for books not have borrowed these free of charger from their local (Tax Payer Funded) Library??
Assuming they had them available, and that they would allow the MP to have them on extended loan (thus depriving others of the said books), or would you suggest that the tax payer bough extra copies of these books?
Some people really do need to take a step back and check their hat size...
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#110
"[in reply to comments made @ #26]
Er... could it also be that Little Ms Moffat not only inadvertently claimed twice for electricity bills but also (inadvertently, of course) forgot to actually PAY them? As we have seen of late, such "errors" are not uncommon in Pariament."
Err... how would she then have receipted payment slips, if she has indeed paid the same bill three times then - as I implied - the utility will credit the account, thus the next bill will not need to be paid as it will have been prepaid - following me so far? - this means that she would not be submitting a future 'receipt of payment' at a later date due to the payment slip having a "£000.00" or "===.==" in the payment box.
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post 111 quote
"You are aware of the functionality of a Blackberry mobile phone, the fact that the MP can access or be sent documents whilst away from the office - indeed even in the commons chamber it's self, during debates etc."
So my next question would be
Why does Stewart Jackson MP for Peterborough pay for a BT landline and rent offices from his own Party in Dogsthorpe Rd only 100 yards from his 2nd home ?
And they charge him for phone services too !!!
I'm still trying to find Mr Jacksons security gates which he claims he spent over £1200 on
There was an article done last week in BBC Look East where protesters went round his house to use his swimming pool, and it required numerous police to stop them entering the property.
No security gates were to be seen
In any case a decent security gate would cost more the £1200 let alone 2 or more
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Dear Tony,
I remember when we used to share that office and plan how one day we would get our mate Pete "things can only get better" Mandelson to reinvent that nasty left wing party.
Well we did it didn't we? We made friends with all the right people like Oasis and Ross Kemp and we showed those Tories we could be more like them than they were!
Then you let me run the economy and get rid of that boom and bust thing and you made friends with George Bush cos he's a cowboy and he's got loads of guns. We even started a war and not many people can say that can they?
A few years ago I remembered that you said you would let me have a go at being the manager but you said I was too miserable and didn't smile all the time like you and I could only do it if I went to smiley school. So I did and I got really good at it, even if it is jolly hard work! Then you said you wouldn't let me be manager because nobody liked me. Well I got all my friends together and they showed you Mr Teflon (what is that?)
Well now I have had my turn and things have really gone well so far. I knew that by not telling people things or just pretending then doing something else was much better than being hon....hon... hon... no I can't say it.
You will never guess what has happened at our house though? Some naughty boys have been buying things by pinching the money that was supposed to be used for really useful things like hospitals. We tried to blame it on the head boy but he just left in a moody.
Anyway I have decided that the best thing to do is hang on till next year because we had some elections and 15% of people want me to. That's good isn't it? Then I might give you another turn if you want.
Your best friend
Gordon
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Why so many claims for petty cash, not sure what they need petty cash for as they seem to be putting in receipts for just about anything and everything - from food to staples. Or dare I say it, are they using the petty cash to buy stuff plus putting receipts in for the same stuff. No that would be wrong!
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#114
"where protesters went round his house to use his swimming pool"
Perhaps you might like to have people invade your house, use your sitting room, watch your TV, use your garden, your computer?...
Talk about hyperbolic nonsense :~(
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Why are people not talking about this!?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/18/tony-blair-secret-torture-policy
Tony Blair knew about the Torture Policy!?
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70. At 06:20am on 19 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
#59. At 11:50pm on 18 Jun 2009, Gojuryu5 wrote:
"...Sorry, you bought it for him, if you didn't approve why did you 'sign the cheque'? Or do you actually mean that you contributed about 0.000000001 pence towards it, oh please, do stop all this hyperbolic fake disgust..."
I have to say thanks to Boilerplated, as you put a smile on my face this morning. '...hyperbolic fake disgust...'. Very funny, I had to look up hyperbolic, but there's no fake disgust here. I agree with you that if an MP is forced to work away from home, and have a second home for the purpose then this is something that should be funded as a part of the job. However, it is the reality of the items being claimed for that it at question.
Gardening? Well, possibly within reason, but items of clothing, endless high-tech gadgets, (numerous examples of which have been identified by other bloggers and the Press), and a seeming inability to consider that there are cheaper options for lots of these items available if one shops around. This is what the majority of taxpayers in this country will have real concerns about. Regardless of whether my taxes paid for £1 or 1p of any one single purchase, the MPs serve as elected representatives of Joe Public, of which I am one. They are accountable to each of us and, in the main, we have valid concerns over the behaviour of a large number - not necessarily all - of them.
So don't try to score points against me and the other bloggers by making pseudo-intellectual scatological remarks. It's not big, and it's not clever.
Merry Christmas
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It would be reasonable to assume our legislators would do all they could to restore their tattered reputation at a time when distrust of politicians is at an all-time high.
But when the BBC commissioned a documentary exploring whether MPs were willing to pass a law that would allow them to be prosecuted for lying to the electorate, it prompted an angry backlash from those who frame Britain's laws.
Former Home Secretary Michael Howard told the programme makers: 'It's the stupidest idea I've ever heard.' Another former Home Secretary, Jack Straw, said the BBC was accusing all MPs of being 'charlatans and liars'. The Tory MP for Bournemouth West, Sir John Valentine Butterfill, said 'anarchy would reign' if ordinary voters were allowed to sue a Parliamentarian for lying.
One Tory MP even went as far as to try to get his on-camera interview dropped from the one-hour programme, Why Democracy?
Film-maker Richard Simons, of Spirit Level Films, quizzed 46 MPs to see how many of them would back a private member's bill creating a legal mechanism allowing a member of the public to prosecute an MP for lying. This would be called the Misrepresentation of the People's Act and would leave parliamentarians open to prosecution for lying, much in the same way that the Trade Descriptions Act protects consumers from dishonest claims and statements.
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#78 boilerplated said "Or indeed a true political mess, it's actually possible to have to much democracy".
Robert Dowling said "The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it." I guess that Mr Dowling's comment, and some of your comments on this debate and others, clearly marks you as someone doing better than average from our so called democracy!
You may also wish to note from the answer you give in #73 that UK protesters within the police limit of Westminster Palace would all be arrested and detained under the Terrorism Act. Or perhaps you may wish to concede that Iran is possibly more tolerant of protest than the UK and more interested in allowing people to vent their anger on the streets?
Politics is a very strange game when "free countries" are less "free" than the regimes that "free politicians" choose to criticise?
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#121
It should be encouraging that there are people within the UK still trying to provide accurate observations upon our largely archaic and discredited democratic processes, but, sadly, there appears to be heavily armoured bullet proof shielding surrounding our representatives. The privileges of those who speak in the two Chambers of Parliament seem stifling of debate rather than encouraging of reform and honesty.
The expenses scandal is just one cause of the ripples on the surfaces of our democracy in action. Amongst all the others are intransigent ignorance of the public voice hidden behind the cries of "we must listen". But then isn't this rife across UK public and commercial life too where customer service is actually an illusion worthy of prime TV via David Copperfield or such?
There are politicians who do reach out to their audience in an attempt to check the pulse and measure the temperature but they are a dying breed. There are a few journalists who do the same. Sadly none seem to work for the BBC.
I would love one politician prepared to make urgent policy commitments for the next Parliamentary session that encompass standards of accuracy amongst parliamentarians and actually specifies penalties for failure, the least of these being, termination of office (or the Chiltern Hundreds) to succeed in breaking the ugly cast that shapes our futures.
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Mps are being persecuted for being human, Most people will push rules to the limit to get financial gain, The real blame for this debacle lies with the approval system for the claims ,Evidence should have been demanded that their claims for expenses and allowances met the criteria of "wholly necessarily and exclusively for the purposes of...duties as an MP."
However it is a totally separate issue when claims are made for non existent items, closed mortgages and inflated council tax bills this in my view should be deemed as fraud and the full weight of the law should be used to prosecute anyone who has done this and if found guilty the sentence should reflect the serious breach of trust .
The European parliament expenses should also be opened up to scrutiny but i guess that would be vetoed by member countries.
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Surely, the entire point is that MPs have been allowed to buy and sell multiple properties, with OUR money. Not their own.
Let them have one salary, to cover all expenses. Subject to all the taxes that they pass.
One law, for all.
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#100
Have been following MPs' expenses claims closely. However, can't find Speaker Martin's. Is it my fault? Hope someone will poit out my mistake. ACC.
>> Yes, the links are muddled up - I got details for Glasgow North MP when asking for Glasgow North East. You can get Speaker Martin's details by choosing any other MP's details and editing the name, which appears twice in the URL address line, in each case to michael_martin, for example to:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Hope this helps.
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#124 ..."MPs are being persecuted for being human"....
Well if they weren't human there wouldn't be much point in persecuting them would there?
The issue is about moralisers and law makers acting immorally and illegally whilst dictating to the greater UK public just how we should live our lives. I think they deserve far worse than persecution - what about prosecution?
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ABUSE OF DEMOCRACY
We are NOT appeased by MPs who say "I did not break the Law"
We entrusted them (Parliament) to protect our interests and to leap up and cry "FOUL" at the slightest hint of impropriety.
Instead they get rid of our Lords so they can embezzle our money without censure, deny us an EU referendum, and bring the country into ruin.
How far reaching is this abuse of democracy?
Changing the principal of our voting system should NEVER be done without a clear mandate from the people I.e. general election or referendum.
God help us.
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I hope that this is a lesson to all(including some critics on another webbsite) but this has been years in the coming. I first noticed this when I was denied access to law over a banking issue because I earned too much for legal aid and the FSA which should have protected me and all the other idiotic dogbodies had no teeth.. These people are not here to protect us, they are largely here to further their own interests and those of vested interest and we should be seen touching the forelock when the grandee comes to call and say thankee for the crust of bread.These MPs and Lords think that it is their right to line their pockets and give themselves another 10K a year. If anyone thinks that they are going to reform themselves- they have to be kidding.
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Here in Portugal we had something similar.
The " boys " would travel to Brasil America etc, etc, take their friends or family and have us,the plebe, pay!
One, even took the " Republic's " airplane on a diving spree to Sáo Tome island.
Not bad for a democracy.
We paid....
We don´t mind.
He´s still on the telly and talks to us all and even says what´s best for the nation and Eurpoe.
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#129
Yes it has been "years in the coming" and it is pretty difficult to put a marker on exactly when the "abuse" started in earnest. Certainly Thatcher did not help things with her unrealistic tampering with the rules and her general belief that "accountability" via targets would work.
The consummate ease with which companies played with contract wording in order to avoid penalties or reduce their value to indifferences or manipulate target achievement indicated how lacking in bite or desire to achieve VFM the financial sector was and is. That has seemingly found its way into general life in the Fee's Office where "anything goes" if we can "make it fit". It is a legacy of lobby fund raising, the freebie holidays and hotel stays enjoyed in the eighties and nineties.
"Want a career where you get to make other people's lives miserable but have a jamboree yourself? Become an MP. Report to your local party agent and see if you have what it takes to make money out of the suckers in the UK electorate..."
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Re MP's expense publications, can anyone explain where the latest buzzword "redaction" has come from?
According to the Oxford Concise Dictionary, "Redact" means to "put into litrary form, arrange for publication, edit"
Surely a more accurate description would be "censored", meaning "Official licensing, or supressing as immoral, seditious or inopportune, books, plays, news or military intelligence (vb. exercise such control over, make excisions or changes in).
Why can't this process be called what it realy is - censorship.
Dave Roberts
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Leading by example....
so is ordinary Joe Bloggs now allowed to make so many "mistakes" and "errors of judgment"; then when caught out just apologise and make some repayment?
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#132. At 12:48pm on 21 Jun 2009, superdavidroberts wrote:
Re MP's expense publications, can anyone explain where the latest buzzword "redaction" has come from?
According to the Oxford Concise Dictionary, "Redact" means to "put into litrary form, arrange for publication, edit"
I think you have answered your own question!...
"Surely a more accurate description would be "censored", meaning "Official licensing, or supressing as immoral, seditious or inopportune, books, plays, news or military intelligence (vb. exercise such control over, make excisions or changes in)."
If you were required by your employer to publish a document on the internet that contained your home address, and that you were for example a bailiff (or some such profession that might be the targeted for 'hate' or other crimes) would you be happy to publish the document with your personal information in the clear?
There are real issues here, on both side, the right to know and the right to have personal privacy and safety. I can't remember who suggested it but I think the most sensible suggestion I heard regarding the problem of MPs addresses was that the address should be blacked out except for the first part of the post code, thus it would be possible to tell in what postal area the receipt relates to so (unless someone 'flips' a house within the same postal area) house flipping or claiming for the wrong house would still show up without causing a privacy or security problem.
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Where are the pre-2004 expenses claims ... and don't give us that 'We didn't keep them' HMRC making me keep ALL receipts/invoices and records for our now defunct company for 10 YEARS minimum. So for the avoidance of doubt ... who has and where are these pre-2004 expenses claims? Why does no one, including Gordon Brown PM, want to admit these files still exist? Has anyone else noticed that MPs have a new defence ... "If anybody thinks I have bought this [insert expense item] for my own benefit they must be [insert derisive term synonymous with mad, crazy, nuts, insane]". Expense claims have not been redacted - they have been 'transcribed' into Newspeak ... MPs expenses were subjected to 'extraordinary rendition'! Good Voter-Citizens practice 'Goodthink'.
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I think it is important that an official enquiry by the police is undertaken to put to rest whether the MPs broke the law. Under our legal system everyone is equal before the law, and with the public perception the way it is, it is crucial that this basic principle is upheld.
I have written extensively on the degradation of morality and ethics in the past decades, proposing that the Greater Greed is now more important than the Greater Good whenever someone, especially those in a position of power, determines what course of action to take. Self interest appears to be the predominant guiding principle rather than the concept of Utilitarianism which holds that each action should be based on achieving the greatest happiness for the greatest number.
I agree therefore that no set of regulations or guidelines will ever by effective to stop this behaviour either in politics or in the business world.
As a hypothesis, while we are grappling with the fall out of the economic crisis, it is essential that those in decision making positions, whether in government or in industry, refocus their attention on the Utilitarianist principles. The USA and the EU are in the process of drafting more regulations to counter a potential recurrence of the financial crisis in what appears to be a case of transatlantic upmanship to get out a regulatory response. The people involved in the drafting and negotiating process are in many cases suspect financially and individually, based on the findings of the Daily Telegraph. The recent decision by the UK Government to publish the expense claims with much of the relevant information erased increases this suspicion. If Silvio had had his way (in one way he apparently did), we would have had 23 year old models involved in drafting regulations of similar import in future.
One needs to consider the motivation for and efficacy of any future regulations that are supposed to assist the community at large when the key individuals involved are potentially morally deficient. Any laws and regulations need to be founded on firm moral principles (Natural laws pertaining to fairness and equity) which may not be the case as many cannot distinguish moral right from wrong.
My concern is that we have shifted too far from a predominantly Utilitarian to a predominantly Anti Utilitarian approach. The behaviour we have seen in politics is similar to the behaviour of the leaders of some financial institutions and many of the financial market players, for example in not being able to see the wrong in insider trading.
The announcement of a police investigation is therefore an important step in the right direction to rebuild some trust. The proposal of further regulations is probably not.
Ferdinand
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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RE:
"Under our legal system everyone is equal before the law, and with the public perception the way it is, it is crucial that this basic principle is upheld."
So what are the laws that don't apply to MPs?
(I seem to remember they can't be sued for slander in the House of Commons for example, are there others?)
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Why are they only publishing claims for expenses made by current MPs? There are plenty of former MPs who have made claims since 2004, but when I asked Mr Stephen McGinness of the House of Commons Information Office, he replied with this email;
The main publication is only for existing Members of Parliament. There are a few people there who have been asked for (such as Tony Blair) but other former Members will have to be requested using the standard FOI procedure.
If there are MPs that you are interested in then you should email a request to FOICOMMONS@parliament.uk
When they said they were going to publish the expenses claims made by MPs from 2004 I imagined they meant all claim made and not just the current MPs claims or is this just another cover-up.
I think everyone who reads this should send them an email asking them under the FOI Act to publish all former MPs expenses claims.
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Spotted something interesting on George Osborne's 07/08 IEP claim.
He likes to save the country money by buying "gadgets" (Samsung Q1 - can hardly see how he needs that - or if anyone has actually seen him using it for "Parlimentary Business") tax free at the "airside" Dixons store at Stansted.
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Ok, so we have a list of all the things that MP's have bought.
So what happens to all these items when they no longer are MP's.
Is there a lock up somewhere of toasters, and TV's?
Surely the former MP's can't have kept them, as they are tax payers property, or have they been given them, and they have paid tax as a benefit in kind?
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#136
My biggest concern about police involvement is just how far can we trust what has become an arm of the political machinery that dominates this country. Who hasn't signed up to this "conspiratorial" corruption of our democracy?
My plea is simply that we outlaw political parties who have any trace of corruption within them - well that is bye, bye all of them I guess....
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Re the MP's Expenses furore, can I add the following: Its great to make a Criminal Offence out of Falsely Claiming them, but the Politians as usual fail to mention the practical consequences of this. I tell you what will happen: An individual will be charged with an offence under the New Law. He will then elect trial by Jury in the Crown Court. And guess what, in the present and foreseeable climate, the Jury will retire for a cup of tea and after a decent period of say two hours will convict the accused unanimously. Good you say. But then the convicted MP Appeals stating the Jury was biased and as a result he was unable to get a fair trial, and the Appeal Judges agree and squash the conviction. Remember, you dont get justice, you get the law!
The only PRACTICAL solution is to pay a fixed, NON PENSIONABLE, allowance to MP's to cover expenses. I believe this would save the country millions. You could scrap the Fees Office and save all those Legal Bills. The knee jerk reaction from the Public at Large is for Prosecutions but the practicalities of this as stated above are far from easy.
Richard.
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I am intrigued by my MP's expenses claim for jam making equipment. To the best of my knowledge Mr Jonathan Djanogly MP is a millionaire and has a second job as a partner in a law company. This is classic case of having your bread buttered on both sides and then expecting jam on top. At the next election Mr Djanogly might well adopt the title of the song from the film 'The Italian Job' ('This is the Self Preservation Society')in his campaign. Possibly a little more sinister is our local newspaper (considered by me to be Mr Djanogly's second Agent) quickly pulling the plug on adverse 'Letters to the Editor' about his expenses claims.
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Confuddled at 36 above: My MP Adam Afriyie did not go on a course. One of his junior members of staff was sent on one so she could be promoted. The House of Commons runs a whole suite of monthly courses for MPs' staff.
Adam is a top MP when it comes to expenses. 9th lowest and no second housing, travel or communications claims since he's been in Parliament. Beat that!
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I believe that once this anger and disgust has died down we are going to get much fitter and leaner MP's. The old school will hang on until the next General Election to get their indecent 'rewards' of inflated pensions and even more expenses paid to them to close their offices. The new incumbents will now know the spotlight is on them. Sadly, some diehards will remain in their seats, no matter which party. They may be considered as naughty boys and girls, get a little slap on the wrist from their constituency party for the sake of publicity and to repair some damage, but they will hang on. Regretfully, our blogs only allow us to let off steam between a minute proportion of the population. The only way forward is for continued massive journalistic investigation and exposure to bring news to the electorate. The Daily Telegraph is to be congratulated on this. Not the 'Torygraph' in this instance. Its leads have been used throughout the UK media.
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it seems that the government are willing to spend money on catching people on benefits who are considered to be cheating by way of using investigators to snoop and arrest these people according to very scary tv ads - is anybody being snooped on and arrested at the top? - can we please have an advertisement on the TV which shows tha this country can deal fairly with both rich and poor people? - it would be more acceptable if the same type of TV scaremongering could be used equally.
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has anybody been arrested yet?
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Sorry to say , I could not see any connection for cleaning swimming pools , Duck islands with anything to do with political business & why supposibly intellegent people claiming a allowance for such items that anyone else who goes to work, in the real world would pay for these sort every day expence, out of their net wages after tax e.t.c. ok ? but expences allowances claimed for by MP's have been bending the rules. If the Electorate made claims like that,they would be banged to rights & possibly be jailed or find for fraudulant claims So charges should be brought even if they hand it back, as thats like a shoplifter offering to pay for the goods they have taken when a crime has been committed....bloggerlofty
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