Changes to international pages (2)
Post categories: BBC News website
| 15:17 UK time, Monday, 15 June 2009
We've read through every one of your messages about the changes we made last week to the BBC site. What's clear is that many of you who've commented would rather we hadn't made them.
Many of you have explained why you liked being able to choose whether you see the UK or international version of the site, wherever you are in the world. The changes mean that's now decided automatically, depending on your IP address - where you are. For many of you living outside the UK, in particular, that means you now see the international front page, which isn't the one you'd choose.
As I said in my original post explaining the changes:
• they are across the whole BBC website;
• this isn't something we can decide differently for the News pages;
• they are necessary to enable us to continue to develop the site internationally, to give us the flexibility to build new features and present content (including video and ads) differently for different audiences;
• we are working on a whole range of developments over the next year, and to give us a firm platform for that work, we had to simplify the underlying architecture of the site, by removing the increasingly complicated consequences of the different UK/international permutations.
Right now that means, I'm afraid, that there's one fewer choice you can make - selecting your edition. Over time we want to introduce more choice and flexibility over what you can see on the site, wherever you are. For now, we've tried to address some of your concerns with a new UK News section on the international front page, whilst the UK and World pages are there for bookmarking and linked from every page on the site. There may be other things you'd like to see in that UK section, in which case please tell us. And if there's anything else we can think of, or you can suggest, to improve things right now, we'll try and do it.
But at this point in the evolution of the BBC website, if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively, and that's not something we think is in our interests, or yours. We do appreciate and listen to all your feedback, we know you wouldn't take the trouble if you didn't care in the first place, and we'll get to work on making some changes to the site which we think you actually will like!
Lastly, a reminder that if you are still seeing the international version and you are in the UK, you can use this form to let us know - we are working with internet providers on this.
Update (1558, 19 June): There's a new post answering some of your concerns here.
Steve Herrmann is editor of the BBC News website.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~56~RS~)
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Well now here we are: I am a British Citizen, a registered voter and extremely interested in the historical hustings for a New Speaker of the House of Commons. So I find the page for the TV coverage of the Hustings to see who is standing and to decide who I woud like to see as Speaker and write to my MP and what do I get?
Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory.
This is EXACTLY why I do not like this change.
Get me back to what I had before.
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"if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively"
As I said previously, I think that's fair enough.
Yes 97% or so of commenters here might have expressed their disapproval of the decision - but how many of those 97% are privy to the actual problems and limitations resulting from retaining the two options, in light of what you have planned for the site?
At the risk of being dismissed as a BBC apologist, I'm prepared to accept that this one step backward is necessary for you to implement several steps forward.
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I do not doubt that Business reasons have forced you to adapt your website, however, as someone who pays a subscription to receive the BBC, why is it impossible for the BBC to allow me and many others the same rights as people living in the UK?.
I subscribe to other websites which require payment to access the content (all above board!), yet the BBC cannot offer this option, why is that?. How can my favorite football team manage this, yet the monolithic BBC cannot?.
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As I connect to the Internet through a company provided foreign VPN proxy, despite using a UK ISP (BT) and being physically in the UK, I assume that my licence fee will now be reduced as the service is provided to me supported with ad revenue. Where do I apply to get my licence fee reduced?
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Mr Herrmann,
Whatever you've done, you have notexplained or justified the changes but rather repeated the same mantras from your previous post, presumably because the real explanation is that either you or your team are unable to consider the possibility that you might be mistaken, and also clearly care little for the loyalty of your large audience of anglophone expats. When Google, CNN and The Times can cater for choice by their international audiences, your inability to consider alternative methods of protecting copyrighted material and targeting advertising is breathtaking.
It is particularly shameful that your post time coincides with the BBC having been entrusted by the Hansard Society with the live streaming of the hustings for the next Speaker of the House of Commons. This, you have provided for UK viewers only. I can only hope that other British nationals who retain the right to vote will remember this and contact their elected representatives.
Oh, and by the way, you have still not apologised for your untrue "all the same content will be available as now so you'll still be able to get both UK and international news wherever you are" from the original post. An admission of error would at least be a start to the rehabiliation of your integrity.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I am one with the many people who have said this is a daft change. I am an ex-pat living in the US and liked being able to go to the BBC home page and see the weather in Cunbria where I used to live. I don't care about the weather where I live, I can see it out of the window. I liked seeing the local headlines for Cumbria and then look at UK news and England news. Now I have dig to find and so I find myself using your news pages less. If I could I would pay the license fee for unfettered access to all of the BBC.
By the way BBC America is a TV channel that carries (mostly) the worst of the BBC.
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Dear Steve,
what a cope out ... very poor - especially your attitude.
So taking what you have said BMW should produce 3 wheeled cars until they decide that 4 wheeled cars are good and that is what people want?
How on earth can reducing customers choice be good - and justify it by saying that some time in the future it will return.
All I can say Steve is get into the real world and off your editorial high horse.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Unfortunately your form does not recognise my company's post code in the City of London. Like many companies. we have been awarded our own post code in a City of London building but, it seems, whichever software you use to validate post codes does not recognise this fact.
I thank you for at least making an attempt to deal with this spiralling problem but you may find a lot of post codes will be rejected for the reason given above.
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OK, so you've made some changes, but for us Brits abroad who are also paying our license fee it ain't what we as customers want.
Like I suspect a number of other people on here I can get around all of this as there are very simple technical solutions that can be used.
But I honestly believe you have unnecessarily alienated :
a) License paying Brits who fund the BBC service .. your "real" customers.
b) Non-license paying expats or non-British residents (who get free access to the BBC's service courtesy of us license payers) who are genuinely interested in the British viewpoint.
I really don't think that's what Auntie would have wanted.
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I am sensitive to the fact that any design change, good or bad, triggers negative reactions from an existing user base. Still, as someone who's been architecting and helping design large-scale web sites for more than a decade, I must say I find the argument above to be less than compelling. Online, you're either focused square on the needs and wants of the people accessing your site or you're on a bullet train to oblivion.
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How does this address the issue for the people sat behind non-uk proxy servers but sited in the UK?
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It's odd - the change doesn't directly affect me. Both at home and work I get the correct version. I rarely look at the site from abroad and can cope with the changes. And yet the arrogance and indifference to the majority of users complaints has really annoyed me to the extent that I'll be changing my default news provider. Any company who puts its own convenience above those of its customers - particularly when it's publicly funded - needs to take a long hard look at itself.
These vague statements about putting future changes "at risk" are just smokescreens around the fact that it's all about the convenience of the website developer rather than the website user. And I speak as a professional software developer who's made the similar wrong decision myself in the past - it's a bad precedent to set that will lose the trust and support of many. And that unfortunately now includes me.
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OK. Real time. I'm looking at the international news page. At the moment on the UK pages, the breaking big news UK story is Gordon Brown announcing an Iraq war enquiry. This isn't in the UK section of the International pages so I wouldn't know about it at the moment - news in the international view is not being updated at the same rate - it looks like the announcement has not been made. Since a lot of news happens, you don't necessarily know to go and look for it.
Second thing is that I don't feel you've really explained the why of the decision unless UK and International are going to become increasingly different, rather than International just being a version of UK. Could you explain more?
Thirdly, being a web-developer, I can't work out why the content is so tied to the page display. Surely the same content can be served into different page layouts to allow you to place the adverts you want?
Final thing is that a lot of us are very parochial with regard to things like sport. Having international sports headlines may not be as useful as having UK-centric sports headlines. Again, more chasing through the site.
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First of all, I apologise if I repeat points made above, but unfortunately even the first comment, made some 45 minutes ago, is still "awaiting moderation" as I write. Ho-hum.
So, the chronology of what has happened is essentially this:
1. BBC makes fundamental change to website after zero consultation with readers/users/license-payers.
2. This change is met with an overwhelmingly negative response, especially in regard to the removal of choice regarding UK/International editions.
3. BBC, in the shape of Steve, makes several faux-responses evading this issue.
4. BBC eventually responds to the central complaint made by readers with a post that can basically be reduced to: "Tough. We know best."
Alright then. I have now removed the BBC News website from my bookmarks,and will seek to avoid using it in the future.
For others like myself who are as irritated with the BBC's supercilious response as with the original change, below are some alternative sources for UK news.
The Guardian: www.guardian.co.uk
The Times: www.timesonline.co.uk
The Daily Telegraph: www.telegraph.co.uk
The Independent: www.independent.co.uk
The Daily Mail: www.dailymail.co.uk
Sky News: http://news.sky.com
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.....and to continue my earlier post - I have been to the House of Commons website and they refer me to the same BBC Page to view the husting procedures.
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So what you are saying is that whilst all the response has been very negative, it's tough luck and we (your customers) will have to suck it up.
Nevermind that I have less functionality and can no longer see "your money" or seem to have HYS's on African huts rather than what's going on in the UK, my IP address is not the UK so I must be a dashed foriegner.
I think the BBC is great, but when you act like this you can see why there is pressure to privatise - your customers have spoken and you have ignored them, in a normal business this would mean failure, with the BBC it seems to mean business as usual.
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Classic "NuLabour" inspired spin. You say "What's clear is that many of you who've commented would rather we hadn't made them." but you then go on to say, effectively, "but we will not change our course regardless of your views".
What's the point in asking if you have already made your mind up ? Why not just write in the original piece "Your comments are welcome but we are not going back regardless of your (TV tax payer) opinions anyway".
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"and we'll get to work on making some changes to the site which we think you actually will like!"
Assuming that you have any 'customers' left by then, I know that I won't be one of them (due to these changes and other occurrences on the BBC web site), never have I been so disgusted by the BBC's total arrogance in the past 10 days - great work BBC, no other media company has ever cause someone to go from being 100% in favour of them to 101% against their very existence I suspect - even FoxNews - in so few days!...
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A sad day for the BBC. I still don't think Steve Hermann and his team understand the importance of seeing news and sport from a UK editorial perspective. You want to know what are the top stories from a UK angle (including the prioritisation of events). And seeing the page alerts to great insights by Nick Robinson and others available to click on ONE page? BTW I got a reply to my official complaint to the BBC - I copy this below:
------------------------------
Dear XXXX,
Thank you for contacting us regarding the recent site version changes.
Some sections of the BBC website have changed in order to better promote
the content for the international audience. Specifically, these sections
are the BBC homepage, the News and Sport front pages and the pages for
BBC TV and Radio programmes.
If you are located outside the UK you will be directed to the
international editions of our pages. All stories are still available
wherever you are in the world but some of the key pages such as the News
front page show a more internationally focussed range of headlines.
There is a full explanation on the BBC Editors' blog here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/change_to_international_pa
ges.html - feel free to comment there.
While we are not able to answer all emails individually, all feedback
regarding the availability of the UK and International edition is being
collated and considered.
From time to time, we will post responses to feedback, and updates about
developments on the BBC Internet Blog.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/
Thank you again for your comments.
Regards
BBC News Website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
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Thanks for the update, however it doesn't really address my problem.
I'm in the UK, and I would like to see the UK Version. This is totally in line with what you are aiming to do - tailoring content to the audience.
However, because I choose to browse using my mobile, I can't.
There's no point in giving you my ISP as it's irrelevant to my problem. As I said in my post on the previous thread, it is caused by the specific use of web servers by Opera Mini being located in Oslo, Norway.
How will you ensure that I (and the growing numbers of people who access the web via their mobiles in the UK) will be able to see the correct version?
And, as has already been mentioned by other posters - there is content available on the UK version which is not available to International users - and I, being in the UK, should be able to see it.
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"Carry on Regardless" Seems to be the maxim.
And if it weren't so serious an error of judgement it would be as funny as the film of the same name. Talk about wooden attitudes, all the comments and criticisms of which there have been many posted here are seemingly ignored or simply ridden over rough shod ! And non of Mr Herrmanns explanations are really anything other than feeble attempts at trying to defend the indefensible.
Its laughable really, and in amongst all this and the explanations thats its all there if you care to look (except iplayer and streaming video for me a UK resident with an overseas AoL server) the irony is the UK link button, as I posted on the other thread, does not even open for me ! So I can't even get to the UK news through the international page. I mean how crazy is that !
Quite frankly frankly it is pathetic, and I just hope people further up the food chain than Mr Herrmann are watching and looking at this unholy mess and threatening to use a cattle prod if it is not sorted out quickly. Because at the end of the day I imagine the BBC DG and his cohorts will be experiencing the same frustrations as the rest of us, at least I hope they are, and so hopefully they will bring some common sense and reason to bear !
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Perhaps Mr Editor you can explain why the 'Your Money' section has been removed from people using the non-UK based version?
If the content is still the same, why can't I view this?
What other parts of the site are now missing from us?
Just admit it, you messed up the change and you are too ignorant to say 'Opps we boobed, we're going to revert to the original version'
I'm off to www.guardian.co.uk
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaints_stage1.shtml
Use the link above to complain to the BBC Trust ... perhaps that might help the morons in the Website area to realise their error
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Dotconnect, I would never brand you an apologist. oh no...
but how many of those 97% are privy to the actual problems and limitations resulting from retaining the two options, in light of what you have planned for the site? -Pretty obviously none of us, since we would have to be BBC employees, and like most companies they probably bar their employees from publicly stating that their products are ill-conceived and shoddily-made guano.
However, I would of thought that most people (excepting Mr. Herrmann) could read between the lines enough to realise that at least some of the respondents are technically competent and (assuming they couldn't find anything better) could probably make a fair stab at something that worked properly. After all, websites (however cutting-edge) don't fall out the sky, run themselves aground or leave a city without power. To paraphrase an earlier poster, "it's really not rocket science"; which makes it all the more irritating to be fobbed off with such pathetic excuses.
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#24. At 5:46pm on 15 Jun 2009, rjakes wrote:
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaints_stage1.shtml
Use the link above to complain to the BBC Trust ... perhaps that might help the morons in the Website area to realise their error
Indeed, and don't forget to copy your complaint (outlining the problem) to both;
Department for Culture, Media & Sport: http://www.culture.gov.uk/
and your MP (and as an ex-pat has pointed out, those British Citizens living over seas, your last UK MP)
Search for your MP here (both require your (last) Post Code:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
or
http://www.parliament.uk/
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Well, this just goes to prove that not all evolution is progressive...congratulations BBC. Its good to see that you are willing to sacrifice the user experience of a significant minority of your visitors, just to make your life easier, and probably wealthier. Afterall, its all about the ads, isnt it? Go on, admit it.
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Reading between the lines of your comments you seem to be saying
'I did not make decision - someone else higher up the organisation did'
So...please answer these questions
1. Who (job titles will do) was involved in making the decision for this change?
2. Where can we the public get access to the documents surrounding the decision - the process, consultation and other details?
3. Where can we find technical architecture documents - so that we, the audience, can analyse the technical challanges you say you face. I guess you may be from a journalistic background rather than an IT background, you may not be able to understand, the boring technological minutiae which can illuminate technological possibilities and drawbacks of a solution - as an editor, you can spot that my spelling is wobbly - as techies we can spot when you are selling us a pup.
4. Please could you ask the people responsible for this, where they get the idea that they can afford to make changes over 'a year' - which might make us happier, when their initial changes alienates their customers and don't work for anybody - either at home or abroad. 'A week is a long time in politics' , but a day is forever on the web.
5.If geolocation is the path you (the bbc) are intending to go down, please explain how you think it is actually going to effectively work, given that it obviously isn't working at the moment, and increasingly won't work, on its current basis?
6. Lets suppose your IT providers are professional. We might then assume that given this was a major change, that there was a role-back plan put in place, in the event that things did not go well. Please can you ask the system owner, to invoke that role back plan, and make us happy. If that person won't, please ask them to post here and tell the hundreds of dissatasfied users why they are not going to, and why they regard our views as so worthless.
Thankyou. I shall expect to see answers to my questions by the end of play tomorrow, as that would be what any customer focused organisation, like the BBC, could reasonably manage.
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This answer still doesn't address UK based people wanting to see the International version.
Can I suggest that people do a Freedom of Information request to ascertain the raisons d'etre behind this decision?
It probably wont get a change back but at least there'd be the satisfaction of having engaged the time of people in the FoI and Website departments in explaining properly the decision making process behind this. Whereas of course their time should be spent undoing this nonsense.
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You messed up.
You miss the point.
To say:-
"Thank you for contacting us regarding the recent site version changes.
Some sections of the BBC website have changed in order to better promote
the content for the international audience. Specifically, these sections
are the BBC homepage, the News and Sport front pages and the pages for
BBC TV and Radio programmes.
If you are located outside the UK you will be directed to the
international editions of our pages. All stories are still available
wherever you are in the world but some of the key pages such as the News
front page show a more internationally focussed range of headlines.
There is a full explanation on the BBC Editors' blog here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/change_to_international_pa
ges.html - feel free to comment there.
While we are not able to answer all emails individually, all feedback
regarding the availability of the UK and International edition is being
collated and considered.
From time to time, we will post responses to feedback, and updates about
developments on the BBC Internet Blog.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/
Thank you again for your comments."
Is, frankly, bland, and very "PC".
To explain WHAT you have done is not enough. We know what you have done! You .....
Not all stories / opinions / listings are now available for non-UK ip addresses.
If they are, prove it.
I have great difficulty in using any BBC site now. It's a mess. Some things are still 'out there', somewhere,
IF I can find them, others are no longer accessible to me, this smacks of censorship.
I am taking my "adclick" elsewhere.
You know what? I have better things to do. You don't listen.
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...and another point. You are upset that someone is jamming reception of your signal elsewhere in the world.
Isn't that exactly what you are doing to US? We are now denied access to some of your content.
If you have to make changes to improve things, well, get the next version right before you destroy the old version.
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Dear Steve
Thank you for listening. However a man is not judged by his words but his deeds.
Now please use the back button, please do not disable this feature :-) and reverse the change!!!!
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OK, Help!
The BBC News Web-site
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/
in a box says "BBC Elsewhere" and then has a link to "The Times"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6499474.ece
The Headline for the story is "BBC set to lose monopoly on licence fee as cash goes to ITV news"
Where can I find out more on the BBC Web-site? I search BBC Licence and get referred to a story in May.
The story MUST be somewhere on th eBBC site, but I can't find it. Politics? Business? ...... Entertainment? I can see a reference to BBC HD....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Steve, none of your excuses explain in any way why I can't have the same UK front-page that I had last week appear on my screen now, complete with the same range of coverage with the same presentation. There is absolutely no technical reason it cannot happen. You were blocking the video content any way, and that's fair enough. But blocking content (yes, stuff is missing) and making the presentation actually worse is bang out of order.
You are basically admitting that your "platform" is more important than the views of your audience. You're saying you've read everyone of our comments but you don't care about what we think any way. It speaks volumes about the philosophy at the Beeb and its attitudes to its audience both within the UK and without.
Disappointing but unfortunately, rather predictable. At the very least, please post online the contact details for whom we can complain to in writing.
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Just to add to the list...
The IP address you get from my browsing DOES NOT determine where I am. As I work for a company that is not British, you class me as not British - it has nothing to do with where I am located. So although I am a UK based license fee payer I cannot access the BBC sites relevant to me. So your changes have not worked - in my industry, software changes that do not work get fallen back, and heads may roll.
Interestingly the link you give to be able to complain about seeing the International Version when based in the UK, takes me to a form titled 'Adverts seen in the UK', not about the News site seen. Well - the issue is not adverts, it is that I cannot see the UK edition of the site. I could make do with the adverts if that is the price to pay for working for a non-british company. But if I can't get the news I need, then not much point using the site.
One thing said though is true "Right now that means, I'm afraid, that there's one fewer choice you can make". Not sure about the grammar there, but that 'one fewer' choice now means I won't be using any of the BBC News site anymore.
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Much as the update is appreciated I can't help thinking it is simply an attempt to try and justify changes which have been made purely for the convenience of the BBC.
So it was necessary to "simplify the underlying architecture of the site, by removing the increasingly complicated consequences of the different UK/international permutations."?
OK, but then why not go one step further and just have ONE main version of the news site for everyone as the other news websites do and let people click on "World" for international news and features. That would surely be even simpler and it would still be possible to block certain content for legal / rights reasons.
Also, you are saying that "if you are still seeing the international version and you are in the UK, you can use this form to let us know - we are working with internet providers on this."
This addresses only one small problem and presumably won't help those whose employers use non-UK gateways. The biggest problem remains and that is the removal of choice for website visitors. Strict geolocation which cannot be overriden is simply not the way to go here unless there are specific legal reasons to provide such restrictions.
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This is all terribly depressing. You've removed and deliberately broken a useful feature of the site. Almost everyone commenting here is in agreement on this. But you make no effort to address the main complaints in your "responses", despite repeated requests.
As it happens I can access the UK version of the site easily, even when out of the country (yes, your IP blocking is really hard to get round - not). But that's not the point. The point is that someone, somewhere has made a fundamentally wrongheaded decision about how to set up your website.
A final thought before I lose the will to live: you have had almost universally negative feedback from people currently out of the country or accessing the site via foreign proxies. The vast majority of UK users probably haven't even noticed anything yet as the website will barely have changed from their point of view. That's until they go on holiday this summer, and try and catch up with what's going on "back home" via their laptop or a cybercafe. I would imagine that they will all be delighted too. My guess would be that you currently have comments from only a tiny fraction of all the people you are going to irritate with this.
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The response does not explain why we are barred from sections such as UK Have Your Say and Your Money. Is an answer too much to ask for?
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Living in Gloucestershire I would like to see the UK not the International Version. Currently for some unexplained reson I am considered to be living overseas (is overseas outside London?). Until the BBC system actually works consider it should be changed back and properly tested.
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Your latest comments have missed te point many of are complaining about. We are not outside the UK and didn't need anything to be changed, but we are now stuck with the international version because your misguided system deems us to be elsewhere just because we have the misfortune to use AOL.
You say this is part of something across the whole BBC website. Please pass all 700+ complaints on to the person responsible for this monstrous decision
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(English ex-pat, five years in Denmark, nearly two in the Netherlands. committed BBC website reader. Until a few days ago)
"if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively, and that's not something we think is in our interests, or yours."
Steve, you have not explained why you need to make the changes. No one who has commented in the past few days has felt that a reasonable explanation has been given, including a significant number of people who profess to have IT backgrounds. Please explain to us WHY these changes were necessary. Until then I agree with other posters that all of your responses so far have been far too bland and evasive.
"We do appreciate and listen to all your feedback, we know you wouldn't take the trouble if you didn't care in the first place, and we'll get to work on making some changes to the site which we think you actually will like!"
I'm not sure I believe that you're listening. You say "many" commentators didn't like the changes - I say MOST, IF NOT ALL posters don't like the changes. Perhaps if you explained to us why they were necessary in clear English we might understand a bit more.
It's not good enough. It's a rubbish decision, and since the changes I have hated visiting the BBC News front page - it feels wrong all of a sudden. Like I'm not getting everything. And I hate writing in capitals but you HAVE to give a better response than what you are currently putting out there.
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Here's a suggestion:
---
For UK users:
Put a link saying "International Version". When clicked, user sees everything as if from a non-uk ip address, except ads which are replaced with grey boxes.
For International Users:
Allow them to click a 'UK version' link. Perhaps make a note popup on the site saying that not all content will be available.
Where there is video content and/or rights-managed content, simply display a grey box.
---
That seems to be a sensible solution. The two versions exist anyway, why not allow people the choice to choose between them? You can then display ads/video/grey boxes depending on their IP address.
Just make sure that they are told that they are not seeing the 'recommended' version, and you are not responsible for any accidents/confusion that may result from them thinking they are in the UK when they are in fact somewhere else (or vice versa)
I'm sure you'll get far less complaints about grey boxes than you have this last week.
I am a PHP developer and would be happy to help with this, where can I send my CV?
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Well it's all very well reading these and saying well it's just tough this is for the whole of the BBC. However this does not help your fee license fee paying audience who happen to live abroad for the majority of the year (like me). We loose a very critical part of the mechanism for keeping in touch with home. Sure we can bookmark the pages but where is the old content? e.g. the old UK page had a UK orientated headline ticker we now an international one instead and the "international" UK page lacks one all together.
You say this is a a issue of being abroad and it's now a one size fits all world, but why is the advertising regionally determined? The web page knows I'm in the US, Canada or Australia and puts up adverts pertinent to the area I'm in. Yet the news doesn't log us into the appropriate pages for the region I'm in (which would be slightly more useful than the current dogs dinner) we still get the generic and truly terrible international news front page. Who recent front page stories include Phil Specter without a wig (shock horror apparently he's bald) and Suzanne Boyle will sing in Glasgow. Hardly quality international news stories.
If you are going to keep this change, and lets face it the BBC is brilliant in some area, but listing to customers isn't one of them, then at least bring the quality of the international front page up to the same standard as the old UK regional one.
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I'm not sure if it's the different flavour of the news today, or if there have already been some minor tweaks, but I felt a slightly stronger connection back to the UK today. (I'm one of these ex-pats who relied on the UK version).
I noticed, for example, that in 'Other Top Stories', you have the UK Iraq tribunal, in 'Other News' there is a Susan Boyle headline and I notice the Cricket score creeping into my News Ticker.
Maybe it is just the news, and these are UK stories you feel are International, and the changes happened on a quiet day for such stories. But if it's the tweaks (and I hope it is), then thank you for listening to us so quickly.
Whatever these future plans are, I look forward to seeing them and I trust that they will allow us ex-pats and UKers with foreign IPs to return to our chosen flavour of news. If there are some tweaks, some concessions to the face that the BBC is after all, a British Broadcaster, and allows UK news to feature more prominently on the International site, then I'll survive the interim. Otherwise I'll be reading more and more of your rivals sites.
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So thats it then, no matter what your customers say there will be no change.
Well I have changed my homepage to Sky News after having been set to BBC for over a decade.
Your loss not mine mate.
For anyone interested google "free uk proxy server", gets you a list of servers, choose one and access the BBC site via that. You can then once more get the UK version of the site except its advert free now, if the BBC is giving us the finger then why not give it back to them.
Oh and BTW, I am an expat who is both a licence fee payer in the UK and who also pays a fair amount to get BBCInternational on cable overseas.
As some have commented before one wonders whether this is a start of shutting off all BBC content to overseas viewers or at least a move to make them pay per view.
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As a Scot currently living in Dublin, I watch (and pay for) the BBC channels more than the RTE offerings. However it now appears that I'm a foreigner and therefore am not suitable to view the tv listings for channels that I can watch. Instead I'm offered listing for channels I have no access to.
What sort of improvement is that?
In one fell swoop Mr Editor you have managed to bring a form of censorship/aparthied into the BBC that I thought would never happen.
I have complained to the BBC Trust and both my MP/MSP ... I would also encourage everyone else to do the same.
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#43 canukqc
"Put a link saying "International Version". When clicked, user sees everything as if from a non-uk ip address, except ads which are replaced with grey boxes."
Great idea, but it's not even that complex for UK IPs. If a UK user wants the International Version, let them have it - ads, unavailable video et al. That way they can see what the site really looks like outside Blighty.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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"And if there's anything else we can think of, or you can suggest, to improve things right now, we'll try and do it. "
Now that you mention it, yes there is. For starters there needs to be an open debate (and I mean open) on the issue of the BBC Censoring comments made by the public on its site. If it was just a case of the BBC censoring foul language etc, there would be no issue. However, that is very far from the case. The blatant censoring of perfectly reasonable, non-abusive and on-topic comments seems to have become standard practice. Anyone who's made more than a few posts on the BBC knows this to be the case. The BBC seems to be most sensitive when it comes to any criticism of the BBC itself, as evidenced in the blog article below titled "Stop the blocking Now".
If the BBC can get past it's trigger-happy censoring habit, what would be really nice is to have the ability to comment on any news article. There should be a link under each article titled "Comment". With all the millions we are paying the BBC, surely we should have the ability to comment on any BBC article and hold journalists to account for what they write?
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1) The latest comment from Steve Harmann still does not quite address the problem. It is a sad day that the BBC has decided not to allow the outside world to see the news and sport through a BBC UK perspective.
2) I heard back from the BBC complaints department (very quick in their response) but it basically stated
"Some sections of the BBC website have changed in order to better promote
the content for the international audience. Specifically, these sections
are the BBC homepage, the News and Sport front pages and the pages for
BBC TV and Radio programmes."
3) My earlier comment on this site was put up and then withdrawn (#20). Was that because I copied the entirity of the BBC response for all to see?
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After a few days of using the new version, I have no big problems with the new version, just two minor quibbles: (1) why is the link to the Magazine hidden in the UK section - a review of the comments shows that the readership is truly international and it deserves a first-line link (2) The "entertainment" front page was different in the UK and international versions, with the UK section having 4 sub-headings, each with links to 4 stories in different categories. There always seemd to be more links in total on the UK version rather than the international. Since the change, I have seen almost no "TV and radio" stories; have these disappeared? Or just the links?
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Typical arrogant BBC answer.
We're right, and you (the people who pay for the Beeb no less) are wrong, so tough luck.
Is anyone really surprised at it?
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So that's alright then!
When are you losing the licence fee cash as it can't come soon enough?
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Any reason why the UK version has a different 'breaking news' from the International version?
approx 23:25 (London time)
UK Version -- 4 items -- 1 sport, 2 UK items, 1 non-UK item
Inter Version -- 4 items -- 1 sport, 3 non UK items
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So a little button that would fool the server into thinking that you were in the UK is too much for the BBC to master?
No.
There is something else happening here. I am perfectly able to do that but am a semi-ameteur web designer.
Full explanation please.
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Before the change I used to be able to watch streams of BBC 1 news bulletins by choosing the UK site, but now that link seems to have disappeared and I cannot find it. Is it still possible to watch these bulletins outside the UK? And if so how do I access them?
Thank you.
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"39. At 8:38pm on 15 Jun 2009, BettyLemons wrote:
The response does not explain why we are barred from sections such as UK Have Your Say and Your Money. Is an answer too much to ask for?"
Apparently so, I have asked twice already but to no avail, even though Steve assures us there is no loss of functionality and we have access to all that we had before. Currently HYS (international) has 3 threads - Iran, mid-east peace and African huts, mmmm, joy.
I wonder what "your money" has - I used to look at it daily, now I'll either have to mess around to get a UK IP address thingy, or start looking at the Gurdian or Times websites.
I really find it hard to believe that less functionality for ones customers is a good thing.
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As many posters have already said, your explanation is total bunk.
How difficult would it be to have us customize our international page to select the content from the UK home page, not just a few snippets? As a developer of dynamic web sites, like BBC.CO.UK, I can assure you and your readers that what you are being told by your technical folks is total bunk.
I guess the great and powerful BBC has decided to exert it's control over its users and decreed that international users shall not see the UK home page.
Laughable.
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Yeah, I don't really think the explanation given is particularly satisfactory - in short it says, 'oh, it's really hard for us to put it back again, we're not really gonna tell you why, but it's like really really hard, so you're just gonna have to put up with it. Sorry!!'. Pathetic.
Just for the information of readers of this blog, there are proxy servers you can use to make you see the uk site and get access to all the iplayer content from abroad (for a small fee of course). Just key a few relevant words into a search engine.
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Like so many others who have spoken up, I am not a frequent commenter by any means, but I feel driven to do so in this case.
I'm a British expat, currently living in Beijing, and the BBC News website is one of my main sources of news, especially for the UK. Along with so many others, I am dismayed at these changes - having done a (very) quick survey of the comments on this post and the previous one, it doesn't look like anyone is really in favour.
It is perplexing to me that despite such overwhelmingly negative feedback, and the simplicity of reinstating the old "user choice" system, the BBC refuses to budge. Of course these complaints were totally foreseeable, which would seem to explain the apparent total lack of user consultation. The unsurprising issues encountered with the "IP geolocation" approach, whereby some people - some license-fee payers, that is - in the UK were forced to view the international version (and some who wanted to visit the international version could not), for me is just the icing on the cake.
Fortunately as an expat in China, I subscribe to a reliable VPN/proxy service *cough*witopia*cough*, which means that I can get UK or US IP addresses on demand. However it slows things down a bit (and the Internet in China is slow enough already), so I really only use the service when I want to access sites blocked by the Chinese government; when I don't want a site owner to know where I'm from; or when I'm using unsecured or public wireless networks. It's a shame that I'll have to add "when I want to read BBC News" to that list.
Even if I go to the UK section of the international version, it's still not quite the same coverage. The 'customisable' bbc.co.uk homepage is a joke - I just spent five minutes trying to set it up, before giving up in disgust. I've been an extremely loyal reader of the site for almost ten years, so in reality this change on its own most likely isn't enough to get me to switch. If the site gets much worse, though, and a better alternative comes along, then who knows?
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Ok, well it looks as if this forum isn't the place to influence any actual decision makers. It reminds me of the time I spent 5 months calling the British Gas call centre just wanting them to fix my account so I could pay them. I think we need to ask to be put through to a supervisor.
Anyway, I am confident this decision will be reversed - very soon. All it will take is a couple more days and then some BBC bigwig or someone of influence will log on to BBC news from abroad to discover that they can not access the site anymore. They will be outraged and then they will pick up the phone. Suddenly we will see the magic button re-appear somewhere.
This really is an internet marketing decision and I'm sure (non-online) UK based editorial people working at the BBC would not really be aware of this change yet. I'd encourage anyone who has the contact details of any high profile BBC journalists to email them alerting them to what is going on with a link back to this and the original posting.
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What a load of dingos kidneys. Are you seriously saying that some other BBC department has a pistol to the News division's head over this?
"if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively" - OK, but the problem with this is that in doing so you've lost your ability to *deliver the news* effectively, and ended up with a rather rubbish BBC Home page to boot. I don't see why a big change like this couldn't have waited until the iPlayer licensing problems are resolved.
I'm off to the Grauniad.
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To be fair, its not just the BBC who are blocking access to the site:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8101299.stm
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Your key argument for this change seems to be: " they are necessary to enable us to continue to develop the site internationally, to give us the flexibility to build new features and present content (including video and ads) differently for different audiences;" (the rest of your 'reasons' are just fluff)
The fundamental flaw in your argument is that, as evidenced by the huge numbers of complaints about this new setup, you cannot define an audience (or its interests) based on the supposed location of its IP addresses.
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If anyone has the email address of Rory Cellan-Jones the BBC's tecnology reporter, who appears regulsrly on all TV channels commenting on Technology issues such as this, it would be a good idea to email him !
A quick search on Wikipedia reveals he is married to a BBC trustee which should Rory pick the ball up and run with it will bring added pressure to bear !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Cellan-Jones
And if you read the notes you will the internet is one of his specialities
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In the words of Victor Meldrew ,having read the editors latest comments,"I dont know what language you are speaking but it sounds like xxxxxxxx to me ".(the moderators wouldnt allow the actual words even in heavily abbreviated form although this was in the original script as broadcast on BBC1 TV at prime time,I guess this illustrates differing parameters within the coporation that may have also allowed these website changes to take place without due consideration to users)
Im just going to set my home page to somewhere else that is more UK user friendly to us expats.Its obvious that the BBC nobs dont give a fig about us and didn't take us into consideration when making these changes.
And ps. BBC I do pay a licence fee in the UK as well for my address there
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"We've read through every one of your messages about the changes we made last week to the BBC site. What's clear is that many of you who've commented would rather we hadn't made them."
..."However - tough, we're not listening to you and we are sticking to our rubbish ideas anyway"
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Everyone else has said it all before I found my way here. But I want to add my name to the growing list of those disaffected, and to advise that I am now exploring other news sites.
My home page has nearly always been the BBC news front page. Now it isn't.
The decision and the logic behind it are just ridiculous.
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Look, lets be fair, I can see that making an initial decision on showing content based on location does reduce the web design & programming effort over making that decision for each piece of content that is served. However, even if this was a valid copyright protection method, (protection by invisibility), it is design for the benefit of the technicians and not the users. There really is nothing you can do with automatically separated versions that you cannot do with versions separated by choice, providing you have the will to do it. This is technicians rather than the users controlling the design so they have an easier life.
OK, assuming the BBC will not go back (because they would loose too much face) can we have some specific answers to what they will do to meet the initial assurances that the same content will be available. Particularly :-
- 'Have your Say' will you introduce a UK section on the International Page?
- 'Your Money' How do we ensure we can get the same content.
- 'UK Politics' How do we get all the same stories
- 'UK News' We can drill down to England and get a few regional stories but how can I focus on my home postcode as I could before.
Some specific answers to these would be helpful.
btw: I do appreciate that you have no liability spend license payers money to maintain web servers for Expats who dont (or no longer) pay a license. However, this goes well beyond this and many complainants (even some who are abroad) are actually license payers.
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'Lastly, a reminder that if you are still seeing the international version and you are in the UK, you can use this form to let us know - we are working with internet providers on this.'
You may well be talking to one or two big internet providers (AOL springs to mind) but, even that will be a huge challenge to resolve which I doubt is achievable. Even if you do then this is only scratching the surface of the problem.
With this you are setting yourself an impossible challenge that is far greater than any design changes you can make yourselves.
I will be charitable and assume that this comment was added in ignorance rather than a desire to kick this into the long grass but it really is nonsense because there is almost no chance of more than a limited success.
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3. At 23:52 pm on 15 Jun 2009, DSDave wrote:
(A) The information you've given us about why it's somehow impossible to give us a choice similar to what we had before (the UK News Front Page or the International News one) is vague, obscure and incomprehensible to most of us. It has something to do with changes in the architecture of the whole BBC web site. But I'm sure that most of the international visitors to the BBC site are interested in News, followed probably by Sport and Business (I'm not sure in what order), rather than in the whole BBC site.
BBC America is a paid channel available only to subscribers to certain cable and satellite services. No doubt the time might come when international visitors come here just as much or more for entertainment and other BBC programmes as for news, sport and business, but at the moment (unless I'm gravely mistaken) that's far more an aspiration than a current reality. So while you're figuring out how to retool the rest of the BBC website, why not humour us overseas visitors (plus apparently a large number of UK-resident ones) who want to see the News mix?
The BBC's journalists not only try to be objective, but also frequently try to explain quite-complicated things (Internet crime, medical breakthroughs, space shots, nuclear defence, financial crises, surveillance techniques, DNS attacks) in language that lay readers can understand in as many steps as needed. Could someone use those carefully-developed skills (and that detachment from corporate policy) to explain to us what this is all about?
(B) There is a usable, though very far from perfect, workaround for those like me who want to see what mix UK viewers are seeing: the text viewer called "Betsie" at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/education/betsie/parser.pl/0005/news.bbc.co.uk/
Please don't disable that, too for overseas readers like me just because I'm foolhardy or foolish enough to mention it. (That would really undermine my faith in the BBC's good faith.)
Instead perhaps you could use create a similar parallel page for the UK readers who want to see what BBC News is presenting to overseas readers (justifiably both because as domestic viewers their licence fee helps support it, and because as voters they're entitled to the information). Technically, it doesn't seem that difficult to do, and you wouldn't be losing much ad revenue because only those who really want to see that page would give up the fuller graphics of a non-text page.
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I love the comment " Some sections of the BBC website have changed in order to better promote the content for the international audience "
Shouldn't the British Broadcasting Corporation's primary target audience be the British public regardless of how they access the content, after all it is us the British Public that are paying for it in the form of the licence fee. I understand that there are some rights issues but these are easy to deal with, without using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
The trouble with the BBC is that they want and strive for too much international influence instead of serving those that it was set up to serve.
You are quite happy to broadcast in every language under the sun to countries some have not heard of, but ignore and alienate those that should be your prime target audience.
Most people I have come across primarily access the BBC for it's UK content not it's international content, especially those overseas, so what do you do...... screw it up.
Only in Britain and with the BBC could this happen.
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I find it very hard to believe that over 700 complaints fails to draw action from the people behind these changes. If the BBC received over 700 complaints about a TV programme there'd be uproar and a huge debate over quality and what is allowed to be shown on TV. If the people behind these changes really refuse to listen to the people who valued the website in its previous format, then would it not be possible to be more accomodating and make it so that there are still the same subheadings on the international page for England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Science and Nature, Entertainment, Business etc? Just put more content on the page? Make the international page more of a combination of UK and international news? The beauty of the 'UK version' before was that you could access at a glance the news that would be in a news broadcast on BBC 1, whereas now it's more like the World Service. This is the point that I feel the people behind the changes are really missing.
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Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory.
This is EXACTLY why I do not like this change.
Get me back to what I had before.
---------
Here's the problem, YOUR ISP/gateway is being channelled via a route outside the UK. There is nothign that the Beeb can do about this, it is also nothign to dow ith the site changes.
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Dear Steve
I hope the following explains our frustration:
Firstly, what is local news to us is international news for you. Consequently, we get a much more detailed view on international news then you provide. Secondly, we can view any number of web sites for international news. We dont need the BBC for international news.
However, there is one unique perspective that only the BBC makes available and that is.
UK News in depth!!
Please reverse your change Yes You Can
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I would also like to point out that The Times website (www.timesonline.co.uk) offers a UK version automatically (even to those of us with IP addresses registered abroad) with an option to switch to a global version if desired as the BBC used to. I have always used the BBC website as my main news source but these changes have, for the first time, prompted me to look elsewhere.
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I'm now starting to wonder if, in the face of swinging cuts being planed by the BBC (most obvious to the general public in all the talk about presenters pay being cut), if those within the BBC online and/or IT sections are attempting to make the whole online and/or IT system over complicated in an attempt to preserve their job numbers - how many back room staff is it going to take, for example, to monitor IP numbers from UK ISP's or companies who have servers outside the UK etc. - more than a few I suspect, in fact I bet a whole new BBC IT department will have to be formed...
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"The changes mean that's now decided automatically, depending on your IP address - where you are."
Wrong. As many people have pointed out, your IP adddress is a very unreliable guide as to where you are. There is no reliable way of knowing where someone is, and making a list of ISPs that might go via another country is trying to bodge a fix in to a bad idea, even before you consider the effect of using proxy servers.
There has been *no* explanation for the reason for the change - I don't accept "We need to" as any sort of explanation whatsoever. It used to work, now it doesn't. End of.
Asking for suggestions of how to improve it smacks of extreme arrogance after receiving hundreds of blog posts explaining exactly what you can do to improve things - go back to how they were.
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I wonder if there are less comments on this second post because people have carried out their threats to go to other sites for their news? I hope it's that rather than people have just given up and realised that nobody is going to listen.
But one more time I will reiterate how I feel about this: There is no technical reason why you cannot give users the chance to override the default versions served to their IP address. None. Nada.
The reason is clearly something other than technical, and I think that if you were honest with your customers you'd get a better response.
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Sorry, that's a pathetic response. You have failed to deal with any of these ongoing problems:
1) Licence fee payers in the UK being unable to access the full resources of the BBC website because we use AOL.
2) AOL users being unable to access ANY of the UK or Business news pages. We've not only lost our UK-centred front page, but all our UK news coverage.
3) Licence fee payers in the UK being shown advertising by the BBC, which contravenes the BBC's charter.
What gives the BBC the right to decide that UK citizens who use AOL should be treated as second-class citizens? It would make just as much sense to proclaim that (for example) people with Sony radios can no longer listen to Radio 4.
Personally, I'm most concerned about the fact that I can no longer use the BBC website. But the BBC ought to be more concerned that they are blatantly breaking the rules of their own charter. How is that going to look the next time the charter and licence fee come up for renewal?
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I have commented before, but thought I would repeat myself after the Editor's additional comments.
I live in the UK, but as a home worker employed by a German based company my internet access goes via a German proxy server, so I have lost the functionality and custom features that I used eg local news and weather, my chose of sport i.e cricket and my football club all on the UK News page.
I can no longer see videos, use the iplayer, cannot listen to 5 Live Extra, cannot see a UK News ticker on the UK News page etc etc....
This change will hit more and more people as time goes on i.e. my wife who works for a large UK company has discovered that her IT support is going abroad for cost reasons and she will then access the internet via a US proxy server.
If this is not reversed please let me know how much of my license fee goes to the BBC website as a want a refund. I am sure it will not be much, but why pay for something that I think is of poor quality..... If I bought goods or service from a supplier and they were not of satisfactory quality I would expect a refund.
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What a load of waffle, the BBC has not listened to what the readers say. There is not one acceptable reason as to why the different versions have disappeared.
The BBC has treated ex pats as second class, with no right to the full versions of what the BBC is publishing.
My home page was set to the BBC, not any longer it isn't.
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What really annoys me is that we are being told that all the features that used to be available still are. That is simply not true.
As clearly the hundreds of negative comments made here are having no effect other than further unsuccessful attempts by Steve Herrmann to justify the changes then maybe it's time for formal complaints.
For now I too am changing to another site for news and if I really want to view something on the BBC News website then via a UK proxy.
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Another day, another shoddy response from the BBC and I am still blocked from viewing the BBC's UK website despite the fact I am accessing the site from a PC in the UK.
Your form for providing IP addesses to fix this problem doesn't work. It won't except my perfectly valid postcode.
You are have blocked the access of licence payers to BBC material. This is a direct and serious breach of your charter. You have offered no appropriate channel for re-dress as your complaints service responds with a standardised and irrelevent email. OFCOM will not investigate as this is a web issue and not TV/Radio.
WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO?
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I have a question & would really be interested in the answer :-
'If there was a revolution in IP addressing so that, instead of being an unreliable indicator of where you were located, Geolocation of IP addresses ceased to exist - What would you do? Throw your hands up in the air and say you cannot carry on? or find another solution?'
OK - we know the answer - so find that other solution now, because GeoLocation is only a guide and is not reliable.
Incidentally, I have always accepted the limitations on IPlayer and video serving before, but I am now signing up with a proxy service (that is capable of dealing with these services) so you will end up with less control than before !!!!
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Mr Herrmann,
Thanks for the update... but oh so lame... Again, why have you not addressed a single one of the many specific questions put to you? I would love to hear you discuss this change with John Humphrys - I suspect he would rub your nose in it.
Still, the message is clear - your not going to address our questions and this is a done deal so far as you are all concerned. As a life-long chest thumping champion of the Beeb, I find this so depressing. Not that the change has been made and apparently cannot be reversed, but the way this has been handled and the complete lack of interest in giving us clear straightforward answers to reasonable questions. I suspect that the real reason you have these blogs is so that we can vent in what you hope will be a cathartic fashion - and then go away... Well, no catharsis here - but I am going away - so sleepy easy tonight - mission accomplished, job well done...
Mike
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It concerns me that it seems to be taking more than one hour to moderate comments. Is this indicative of how the complaints are being treated?
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I have a feeling that what would silence most of the critics is allowing a cookie to override IP-based targeting, warts and all.
This may or may not be entirely congruent with what was there before, but it would be equivalent-enough for those who care about it.
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69. At 08:44am on 16 Jun 2009, ExpatDinosaur wrote:
"OK, assuming the BBC will not go back (because they would loose too much face)"
I think that, should the BBC decide to roll back these changes, at least until they could assess what has gone wrong, and come up with more relevant and considered changes, they would not lose any face at all. If they were to reverse this it would do nothing less than prove to everyone that the BBC does listen, does react, and does care about its audience.
Come on, listen and react, BBC. You might be hoping that we would all just go away, and I'm afraid to say, with so many dissatisfied 'punters', that might be exactly what will happen.
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Hopefully someone perhaps braver and more principled than me will elect not to pay their TV licence fee pointing out to the Judge in Court that actually they dont live in the UK according to the BBC's interpretation of the geolocation of the AoL servers, so why should they have to pay the licence fee. Moreover I think the points made above by CrosbyCat are very good ones, in particular isn't it against the law and the BBC's charter for it to be allowed to advertise in the UK ?
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Please put up a poll on your site as to whether people are happy with the changes or not (technically very easy to do - and to ensure that every user can only vote once) and publish the results in real time and then take a decision whether or not to restore choice in the light of those results.
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#84
"You are have blocked the access of licence payers to BBC material. This is a direct and serious breach of your charter. You have offered no appropriate channel for re-dress as your complaints service responds with a standardised and irrelevent email. OFCOM will not investigate as this is a web issue and not TV/Radio.
WHAT EXACTLY ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO?"
Contact your MP, remember that the "Digital Britain" report is published today so the BBC, the licence fee and internet access will be a 'hot-topic' in Westminster in the weeks and months to come - if the BBC won't listen to it's paymasters directly perhaps they will start top listen when our political representatives start to decide the future direction of the BBC.
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How long does the BBC think it will be before expats take up UK proxy subscription more or less as a matter of course?
As ExpatDinosaur said, you will then have less control over what we see, and we'll have the joy of having no blessed ads, the full facility to enjoy iPlayer, etc!!
You're just burying your heads in the sand, and putting an end to a decent service, replacing it with something much worse, with no consultation.
Bad management, bad planning, bad service, bad job.
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What I liked about the UK edition was not just the ability to see UK stories without having to make an extra click, but the ability to see what international stories were big stories in the UK. No amount of customising my own page will enable me to do this.
But it seems to me that there is an easy way to meet the demands of so many for a way to continue to have the UK edition, without running the BBC into any of the problems it is trying to solve by dropping it: Have the site you reach from the international edition when you click on 'UK' feature the stories, international and UK, currently presented to UK readers. You could leave off links to i-player or other features that you can't make available to international readers, but still give most of us most of what we want, which is a sense of what is of concern to our family and friends at home, or (for the less fortunate) a sense of what those fruitcakes over there are all worked up about now.
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Having read all the negative views on this change, I am disappointed in the response - to ignore all the negative feedback completely and say in effect "Tough, we're doing what we want, not what our users may want."
I am another UK user routed through a corporate Canadian internet gateway who is now presented with a load of irrelevant news that I don't care for. As a result of the latest BBC posting, I will vote with my fingers, lodging a complaint on the way out and sourcing my news from somewhere with .co.uk in the URL.
Oh hang on, this BBC site has. I must have misunderstood something somewhere.
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What a cop out. "Like it or lump it" is what you are telling us. Well I am afraid that is a real cop out and pretty typical of the nonsense we get from the BBC at the moment. Do you realise just how many expat Brits there are who come to the BBC News website for UK-centric news? Please go back to the old system, selectable content.
BTW for those who say it's not worth complaining, a recent, somewhat related, success story: a few months ago BBC America took off the schedule the morning BBC World News feed and replaced it with Cash in the Attic or some such nonsense. There was such a huge outcry on the BBCA website that they brought it back. So the voice of the customer does count for something, sometime (and yes I know that BBCA is not wholly owned or controlled by the BBC).
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As mentioned by another poster, your web form will not accept my central London postcode as valid, which is odd as royalmail.com does. Obviously your postcode lookup is developed more effectively than theirs.
I am another UK based user seeing adverts and international content but your mechanism for telling you doesn't work.
Thanks to the other posters for skynews and timesonline links, I will join them there.
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Being unable to find Rory Cellan-Jones email address (the BBC TV Technology Reporter) I have elected to try and broaden the debate and hopefully alert Rory to what exactly is going on here and the depth of feeling on this issue, on the basis of the near 800 complaints generated thus far.
Accordingly I have posted on one of Rory's blogs about the BBC i player (which although I am in the UK I cannot now access !) asking him to look into it, and so I would exhort anyone else who feels similarly disposed to please add your two pennyworth at Rory's blog.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/06/bt_and_the_iplayer.html#comments
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I'm going to side with the BBC on this. Going forward, maintaining an international version of the UK site (with adverts and without protected video) and a UK version of the international site (without adverts) can't be an effective use of resources. Customisable interfaces are incredibly difficult to do right, and the half baked approach the BBC have used in the past clearly isn't sustainable. Going back to basics and building back up more personalisation is, IMHO, the way to go.
IP restrictions aren't perfect, but they're the best solution available at present. If you're running through a proxy then surely you (or your company) need to take some responsibility for the effect that will have on browsing).
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The changes to the BBC News website are SO unwelcome. I do not wish to view the UK version, when I switch on.
I have been told that I can bookmark the international page, but of course the content on the international page is differnet from the UK, which is different from the news front page!
The choice of having version options has been removed and I will now remove myself from the BBC News and reside on a site that does cater for my opinion.
I have read most of the complaints on the Blog x 2 and I am depressed at the seemingy acceptable stance to accept that people are unhappy, and to 'Carry on Regardless'. How very modern.
Bad decision, bad handling.
I suspect that there was never any plan of the changes being reversed, even if every memeber of the fee paying public complained.
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This is SO FRUSTRATING.
I am a UK member, who has been using the international version.
I spend a long time customising my home page so that it showed me all the news stories from around the world on one page, and I could click through to the relevant stories from the home page rather than having to navigate through the news website front page.
This is now gone and I am confronted with mind numbing local news, and a front section showing me culture stories that the BBC WEBSITE TEAM think I want to see!
The changes have merely taken away functionality from the public, assuming that we are so stupid that we cannot get to grips with iplayer content only being available to UK members.
Allowing us a work around to select a different version would not cause any more problems, and it is insulting that the website team treat us like idiots. All you have to do is include a warning about iplayer content when you switch.
I used to tell anyone who would listen how great the BBC home page was, but now I assure you that I will be using a different website as my home page.
GIVE US BACK CONTROL OVER OUR WEBSITE. There is no way you can make using the website a better experience by taking away functionality.
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Another day following and commenting on these changes, it's a sad one. An illusion, because let's face it that's what I had, of a Broadcaster who was fair, measured in it's reporting, trustworthy and holding on to values long gone in many organisations has evaporated. I feel that the lack of proper response and the attitude therein toward people who have dared to complain on this site is incredible. I don't know anyone personally who doesn't feel the same as me in Italy. For every person who's taken up their right as licence payer, British subject or people who used to be considered important whatever nationality to complain there will be many who don't use their voice. This is an emotional not particularly intellectual plea for reason but am doing so for my own satisfaction, knowing that my views are landing on stony ground.
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#94: What I liked about the UK edition was not just the ability to see UK stories without having to make an extra click, but the ability to see what international stories were big stories in the UK. No amount of customising my own page will enable me to do this.
Exactly what I feel I've lost. Is it really such an impossible option; it seems like there's a large demand for it.
The above blog entry does appear to simply say: 'thank you for your comments, we won't bother with them'.
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Pretty cool. 600 plus posts on the previous thread, possibly 590 overwhelmingly protesting against the changes.
Result ? Thread closed, customers ignored and a new thread started which doesn't answer the majority of the points raised.
One day later, and a further 100 posts made, again overwhelmingly against the changes.
A very sad situation. Normally most computer systems are designed with the end user in mind. Now I accept that you can't consult all of your customers. But many of the people posting here are license payers (whether in the UK or outside of it) and they are the people you should be taking notice of.
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we are working on a whole range of developments over the next year, and to give us a firm platform for that work, we had to simplify the underlying architecture of the site, by removing the increasingly complicated consequences of the different UK/international permutations.
So we have been told that we can still access all the content there was before, but if that truly were the case then wouldn't it be possible to program two different home pages, (for the sake of argument let's call them "UK Version" and "International Version") and offer them as a choice that the user can make (for the sake of argument, by a radio button)? After all, if all the same content is available then surely only the homepage is different? In short, if all the content was available before, and is still available now (supposedly), then what underlying architecture has changed?
But wait, there's yet more to this multi-textured conglomeration of misinformation! Because we have been told that the "increasingly complicated consequences" of having two versions needed to be rectified somehow, and the solution to this is to have two seperate versions of the site. Oh wait, I get it now. Before there were two versions and that made it complicated, but now there are only two versions so it's much easier.
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I think I just realised what this is actually about. Ad revenue. If the people at the BBC push more eyeballs to the international version, more ads to be served, revenue goes up.
I can't wait for the corruption investigation at the BBC to kick off, just like for MPs
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Whilst we wait for these changes to be reversed a few suggestions -
Try a proxy. Enter http://news.bbc.co.uk into the url space on this free proxy and get "old" UK new site.
http://www.daveproxy.co.uk/
Try The Times on line -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/
Easy to switch between UK and Global versions.
Try any other UK newspaper site or Sky News.
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@106 pgalbavy
Yes - it's about adrevenue, but the Beeb and the advertisers don't realise the model is bust ...... I never see an advert thanks to the Firefox add-ons.
@107 Nick_Russell
Best not to put the names of proxy servers on-line .... it simply means that companies / countries exclude them. For example, here in Dubai we have the choice of two monopoly suppliers .... and the proxy server you mentioned is banned on there.
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@Nick_Russell,
I am now using http://www.daveproxy.co.uk/ whenever I want to access the BBC news site, its a bit of a pain but then again I get no adverts anymore but I think that just quid pro quo, the Beeb wont let me view the uk edition then I wont view their adverts.
I have switched my homepage away from BBC as well so I reckon my usage of the BBC is a fraction of what it was, sad but what other choice have we been given.
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I'm feeling a bit neglected now. Isn't about time Steve Herrmann put another update to his article? Yes we know it won't address any of the issues and will blindly ignore all the valid complaints in order to make his life easier, but at least it would give us something new to complain about :)
Go on Steve, prove me wrong! At least take notice of the most valid complaint (well from my perspective, sorry to everyone who disagrees!) - people who are in the UK, whose IP addresses get recognised as outside the UK due to company access etc etc. The "tell us about it" simply won't work - it's a fluid situation that changes all the time. I know I used to have an ISP that got recognised like this, I'd complain, it would get fixed...and a few weeks later I got a new IP address and I applied again...etc...
A healthy dose of reality would seem to be needed here.
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The ability to override the automatic IP location seems to make sense but this doesn't help if the IP location is wrong and prevents legitimate access (or adds advertising) to video and audio content.
You could take an idealistic internet approach (same experience for everyone regardless of location) and the steps required to achieve this! What items are generally available to UK but not available to the rest of the world? This might be a redundant nationalistic argument as use of proxies becomes more common and bandwidth becomes less of an issue.
I want to see more multiple perspectives selectable from left hand menus:
Global-Continental-HomeUK-Local-UltraLocal
but some people like the same page for everyone as a starting point and then let the user choose what to look at.
Does the news website need to be completely configurable like the main bbc.co.uk site to keep everyone happy?
Isn't this change partly driven by marketing strategy that says localised versions are needed to increase web traffic?
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One more coat of paint on this old heap won't change a thing, it's still a prime candidate for the junkyard no matter how much spit and polish is on the outside. The only way to overhaul this monstrosity and turn it back into a credible news organization is a clean sweep top to bottom housecleaning and replacing all the hacks who work at BBC with real honest to goodness journalists....if there are any left to be hired. Short of that, BBC is nothing more than one big propaganda machine, its stories suspect at best.
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I am in the unfortunate position of working in a UK based office, but with a cooperate proxy server based in Germany. The net effect (if you pardon the pun) is that I now see the international version of the website :(. I used to be able to get a UK centric view of the worlds news, but now I can only chose to see world news, or UK news. It might not seem like such a hardship, but it really is quite annoying.
The argument for the change seems to stem from the problem of advertising and licensing. The BBC (quite rightly) would like to place adverts on the international facing pages, and I have no problem with this. Steve Hermann seems to suggest that there are some issues around layout of the 'UK Edition' not supporting adverts, so in providing the UK edition to an international audience the BBC is losing out on advertising revenue. So, why not have three editions? A true UK edition, and then let international visitors choose who they would like the news to be presented to them- either an international view, or a UK centric view?
Given the amount of feedback on these pages, the BBC really cannot sit back and do nothing.
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BBC must have the world's worst IT department. Since BBC's changeover, there have been numerous outages where there were maintenance problems or other unannounced interruptions. Some years ago, BBC was constantly plagued by problems related to its various web sites. Then after years of failure they were finally fixed. Now they are coming back again. Didn't you people ever hear the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?" For a start, how about firing your entire IT department and outsourcing the work to India or the US. I'll bet there are elementary schools in the US where the students could set up a more reliable web site than BBC's staff can.
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-blackmambahk-
Great tip about daveproxy - it's let me compare the edtions and see that they're not the same underneith.
For exmaple, on the international version of the Business Pages there's no mention of the shenanegans going on with Barklays. The most popular stats are different.
I'd like to know just what sort of new feature is in the pipe line if they have had to break some of the site's core functunality to implement it (I would argue that being able to choose from what perspective you view the news from is pretty core to the site).
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When is the BBC not the BBC? When it's being viewed abroad (or by someone who appears to be abroad for the unfortunate British residents). How do I come to this conclusion? Look at the charter signed in 2006 - "Bringing the UK to the world and the world to the UK". This latest policy contravenes that policy document in both directions, so I can only assume that as there is advertising present on the international page, that this is not the BBC, but a Worldwide style offshoot, which we can but hope the latest review will deal with. The image of the BBC is being tarnished abroad. For years I have been explaining to foreign students that the BBC does not have advertising and for very good reasons. Now I have to explain that this is not the Real BBC, but a pretend operation run apparently by people, who have no knowledge of the needs of their public, whether we are talking about TV or the website. Do politicians in GB know for example that in the name of the BBC the ads that appear can in fact be for rival organisations? I just saw an ad for an American economic newspaper (Would this explain why the Money pages have vanished?) The result more confusion in the minds of visitors to the site and a move away from the charter documents and the guiding principle of "Nation shall speak unto nation". and the line in the Royal Charter saying that the BBC should "be free from both political and commercial influence and answer only to its viewers and listeners"
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Thanks for all the comments. I'll reply once I've read through them all.
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Having had a look at both websites, one via proxy (UK) and the other through the normal route, I too have to conclude they are not the same. Some stories - even after delving deeper into the site are not there - on the international version.
Since the forced switch to the international version, I haven't had much use for the BBC News Website. There are other more up to date websites for international news. The BBC was my connection to UK local news.
This was a bad move, that seems to have been done purely for revenue.
Can I also just add, that as somebody living outside of the UK, that my television provider pays for the throughput of the BBC channels and I pay my provider, so in a sense we pay a fee towards the BBC too.
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Can't see the ads. Suggest BBC sacks rejects from Redmond.
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Steve, it's really quite simple. As a British ex-pat I was relying on the BBC website to keep me connected to the UK news and sport. What I wanted, and what I was getting, was a uniquely British view on those topics. All delivered in the way that only the BBC can manage. Now, with the changes I can't get that anymore from the BBC.
I don't want to dig around your site looking for the content that I want. I can get the same content elsewhere. I want your editorialised view.
Quite frankly your website is now too painful to use to get to what I want. Unless you can re-consider I'm off elsewhere. Maybe I'll come back when you reach that elusive future when you've made the changes you think this enables. Maybe not.
Maybe you care about delivering a service that meets my needs. Maybe not. The evidence at the moment suggests that you really do not. I'm disappointed that the BBC does not view the ex-pat community as part of it's target audience.
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OK, so after 770 comments on this subject I think we can safely say that the BBC will do NOTHING about our complaints...
I too live overseas but have lived 38 of my 39 years in Cambridgeshire.
I obviously have an interest in UK news & would like to see it but without clicking 4 or 5 links!
I do not want the international version as it is on par with the international version of BBC TV which is USELESS. I have already changed my homepage to timesonline & I will keep it until the BBC reverse the decision which in my opinion will be NEVER
thanks & goodbye
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As the BBC no longer give me the option to view their British website I am only left with the option to use one of the other many provides of such british sites (Guardian online, Telegraph online etc). I have NO interest in an international website.
One other thought; will this change really drive up visitors to the international site and hence advertising revenues? I suspect not given that people like me are going to not use it. And the BBC will have the added cost of maintaining an upto date list of british web addresses. I guess then that there is going to be an increased cost to the licence fee payer....
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In the past few weeks I have given up the new BBC Radio 4 website, the BBC Radio website and now the BBC News website because I hate all the changes. BUT I have found the Times, Telegraph and Guardian websites. Hurray, they give me what I want. Goodbye BBC until both the Steve on this blog and the Steve on the BBC Radio 4 website see reason.
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For those who say it would be a resource headache to programme "two separate home pages", one international, one UK -- no it wouldn't. Set it up as before - a cookie-based system that remembers what you selected last time, then depending on your IP location, does or does not feed adverts.
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Dear Steve
We have a workaround - You can block it if you like but we will find another and another and another.
Now please accept how popular and important your UK Site is and reverse your change, re-establish your credentials and make everyone HAPPY!!!
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This is terrible. Even though I am in the U.S., I come to the BBC for a British perspective on the news, as well as British local news. I'd like to think that I'm intelligent enough to realize that it is a news source originating in the U.K. You don't need to dumb it down. Now I will have to find somewhere else to get my fix of British news. Your site was much more usable in the late 90's- early 00's.
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I appeal to everyone to contact the BBC Trust via http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaints_stage1.shtml and lodge a complaint about this decision.
Again I stress to Steve Herrmann that the 2 versions are different from each other.
Just bring back the option to allow people to choose which version people want. Surely even you can look at all the comments and realise that this was an error/mistake.
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Quote "For now, we've tried to address some of your concerns with a new UK News section on the international front page, whilst the UK and World pages are there for bookmarking and linked from every page on the site. There may be other things you'd like to see in that UK section, in which case please tell us."
Yes please Steve. Here is what I would like to see. Add a section so I can customise the local news section. Add a section so I can customize the radio to my local BBC radio section. get rid of the International news section, and just have a uk news section at the top. Add a weather section which can be customisable by post code.
Oh wait ..............mmm that the way it used to be.
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117. At 5:50pm on 16 Jun 2009, Steve Herrmann (BBC) wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. I'll reply once I've read through them all.
OK, Steve, but please come back with some solutions not just a re-iteration of what you have already said.
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So how do I access the Parliament Channel?
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Is this really the sort of advertising I should be putting up with when viewing the BBC? I don't live in Panama/Costa Rica/anywhere in South America by the way.
Costa Rica Investigations
Private Inv. Costa Rica-Panama
Surveillance-Backgrounds-Cheating
www.costaricapi.com
Why not just cash in on premium rate sex lines and be done with it? Or maybe, just maybe, put in some kind of mechanism for checking what you're actually advertising.
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Problem solved. BBC has not learned from China etc.
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I work for a US multinational that routes its internet access through Belgium, so although I sit in an office inside the M25 I'm now treated as an international user when I visit the BBC News and Sport sites.
I'm not an international user. I access the site from the UK, so I want the UK perspective on UK news. And when I go abroad, I want the UK perspective on UK news. In short, I want the choice.
I've watched this thread grow (and grow) with interest in the last few days and I'm amazed at the lack of a decent, credible response that directly addresses the main issues and concerns being raised, almost all of which conclude there is nothing positive at all about these changes. I'd be interested to know how this ranks among other blogs about content-related (not cosmetic) changes you've made to the site over the years.
Steve, you need to provide some honest answers fast, not peddle the same messages that duck the issues. If a private sector's website made such an unpopular change, received such a high number of complaints (and I reckon most people who have commented here will have told at least 10 people about it, let alone blogged or tweeted about it elsewhere) and responded in such a poor fashion, the person in charge would be starting to think about updating their CV.
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I don't believe its not possible to have a customisable uk version of the home page available, with advertising. Many people will stop using the BBC site if they, like me, don't like the new international home page. In return advertisers will be less keen to advertise if less people use the site. Come on BBC you need happy customers to advertise to. No customers = no advertisers.
Of course I'd prefer a page with no adverts but I could cope with it if I got the old UK home page content and customisation back.
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Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is what you get when the government sets up a quasi monopoly and then lets it run amok without oversight. It's not a surprise. If the British population had a choice and BBC had to rely on audience share for its revenues, it would change for the better or die a merciful death. As it is, it will go on being this way forever. I'm just sorry my American taxpayer dollars go to subsidize it through contracts with NPR and PBS.
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117. At 5:50pm on 16 Jun 2009, Steve Herrmann (BBC) wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. I'll reply once I've read through them all.
Why bother waiting?
Just get on with undoing the disaster.
Have you got the message? Do you realize that which you have done?
You have destroyed the goodwill, the trust, even the respect and affection that readers once had.
You have very little time to sort it out. It might be too late.
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I can only agree with the vast majority of those posting. It is however very British of the BBC to regard a reduction in choice as an improvement in customer service. Please do the decent thing and admit defeat. Remedy this mistake immediately.
One other point. When travelling (within the UK) I access the site via the Vodafone network. When seeking to access video content within news pages this too produces messages announcing that "this content is not available in your region". In just what international region do you consider Vodafone UK to be operating?
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Steve: here's a message for the moaners - tell them to get stuffed. They are a minority of users to the BBC site and if pandered to the minority each and every time, nothing would get done. I'm sick of people continuing moaning when they've been told that a change/reversal is not possible.
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I have read many of the comments on this blog in response to the changes implemented by the BBC. I'm an expat living in the states and while the changes haven't impacted me as much as most, I do think some of the criticism aimed at the beeb is valid. However, there are some expats posting comments that are just silly. There have been calls by some who live outside the UK to have access to the I-player. Again, I'm talking about expats not people who are overseas for a short time. Why should you have access to I-player? There is no television network in the world that allows those outside its territory to view its programmes.
Once you make the decision to leave the UK, you can't expect to have access to the broadcasts of BBC productions. The BBC would have a hard time selling their shows to tv companies worldwide if everyone outside the UK has access to it's programmes. Again, I think this change clearly has not been thought through as has been evidenced by all the problems UK based readers are having. For all that though, let's keep the I-player issue in perspective.
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The silly thing is that the BBC is alienating people who would quite happily PAY for the content provided it is of the quality the BBC is renowned for. I live in Australia now and I can tell you that in comparison to the ABC over here, the BBC, when it makes quality programming or news content, is outstanding.
However, I have been seeking alternative news outlets as a result of this change even though I can get around it now.
BTW, here's a note for you BBC. Over here, "Sky News Australia" allows you, on the red button, to view Sky News UK. Again, though, the BBC would rather put out BBC World News and not offer an option of its UK news. Why can your commercial competitors offer this option? Is the advertising revenue that important when it is well known that most people turn over during the advert breaks (and the main reason why ITV is in such a mess?).
The parallels with your internet offering now are all too plain to see.
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"and we'll get to work on making some changes to the site which we think you actually will like!"
Here's an idea - instead of taking the site that we all knew and loved and replacing it with a half-baked, unfinished version that needs these changes that we may or may not like - put the old one back until you've made the new site work properly! (or at least until you can provide a serious technical reason why you can't). The BBC is not a place for public betas.
I'm sure this has a lot to do with the number of people that work on any project at the BBC, be it programming or web. There are always hundreds of staff stood around holding clip boards, doing not a lot. No wonder the licence fee is so high, it has to pay for so many levels of middle management it would make George Orwell faint! Too many cooks spoil the broth, and waste our money.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This is now getting picked up elsewhere - the popular "Expat Focus" blog has the story ("BBC Infuriates Expat Audience")
http://expatfocus.blogspot.com/2009/06/bbc-infuriates-expat-audience.html
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Hmmmmmm..... wondering if there is an alternative Iranian news-site that might treat me better than the BBC has done recently.
Just because this has been done does not mean it cannot be undone.
Listen to your readers, not to some out-of-touch focus group.
The end user is telling you that they are not satisfied.
Your (loyal, longstanding) customer base is unhappy.
If this happened in my company we would be taking a long, hard look at our actions.
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Dear Steve Hermann
Do you think that a site such that run by the BBC, which acknowledges that changes made to the website are unpopular with a significant number of its users but decides that those changes will remain, deserves to win any WEBBY awards next year?
Kind regards
Ged
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How can this happen - last night when I signed on I was very happy to see the UK version; this morning I am stuck with the International version? I am in the same house in Surrey and using the same
pc and the same AOL.
If you can give me the version I want one day, why not every day???????
I wonder if the Beeb has broken one of the basic rules of computing and not kept a copy of the version that worked properly.
In Blog 144 2020hindsight quotes a blog that says "BBC has infuriated expat audience" - its created a new expat community who are all keen to stay in the UK
Do they think that by ignoring all these negative comments we will stop complaining? We will probably go away and find a site that meets our needs
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And another thing. Out of curiosity I tried to access "BBC knowledge" from the "International" version. I was asked which region I was in. UK was not a choice - how do I find out where in the world BBC thinks I am???
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You know, back in the 1980s the most famous brand in the world (Coca-Cola) made a mistake similar to this. They changed the recipe of their brand in the US. Unlike the BBC, though, they had actually done research to check whether it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately this research was flawed and consumers clammered for the re-introduction of the original product. Do you know what Coca-Cola did? You guessed it. They admitted they made a mistake and re-introduced Classic Coke, and the brand came back stronger than before. That's an example of what can happen if you listen to your consumers and respect them.
Pay heed, BBC. There's a warning there for you.
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"we are working on a whole range of developments over the next year, and to give us a firm platform for that work, we had to simplify the underlying architecture of the site, by removing the increasingly complicated consequences of the different UK/international permutations."
What sort of nonsense is this? There are still two versions anyway. An unreliable attempt to locate users based on IP address is much more complicated than having a simple little button to switch between them. Honestly, if you're going to make up excuses at least make up believable ones, or employ someone to work on the website who knows the simplest basics. If one little switch really makes things a lot more complicated then there's something seriously broken in the design of the entire site.
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Brilliant!!! Thanks BBC!!! I now have my UK version back - but without adverts now - thanks to you giving me the incentive to investigate proxy servers.
As a by product, I can now also use iPlayer which I had resigned myself to not using.
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#139. At 00:07am on 17 Jun 2009, Jordan D wrote:
"Steve: here's a message for the moaners - tell them to get stuffed."
But that is what he has done already, so what is happening, together with all those who have not bothered to complain (for what ever reason) these people have and are voting with their fingers - the two that form a "V" on their mouse - and going off to other websites that are not sticking the same two fingers up in the air at them...
I for one now only visit the the BBC news website to see if this silly and totally destructive decision has been reversed and to visit this and one other BBC blog - which also felt the heavy hand of the BBC's new "Nanny knows best" regime.
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This really is a rubbish idea. I know that you say that all the same information is available, but using the international version it's a lot harder to get to. Why does the internationl version not include lots of parts that are on the UK version of the site?
Please can you listen to the users of this site and find a way to fix this problem.
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#151. At 10:13am on 17 Jun 2009, ExpatDinosaur wrote:
"Brilliant!!! Thanks BBC!!! I now have my UK version back - but without adverts now - thanks to you giving me the incentive to investigate proxy servers.
As a by product, I can now also use iPlayer which I had resigned myself to not using."
The above just goes to show just how stupid all this is, now not only have the BBC lost any ad revenue that they had before these changes were made but is now breaking their own rights contracts - the only people who will make any money out of all this are those who start marketing proxy servers to ex-pats, or is the BBC going to spend even more tax payers (err sorry, licence fee payers) money on a whole new department chasing the IP numbers of these proxy servers, that is on top of the new department chasing bona-fide UK users accessing the site via non UK ISP/workplace IP numbers, which is on top of the new department chasing non UK users who are accessing via UK based ISP/workplace IP numbers...
Are we all caught up in some alternate universe that has escaped from a BBC comedy script reading?!...
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#139. At 00:07am on 17 Jun 2009, Jordan D wrote:
"Steve: here's a message for the moaners - tell them to get stuffed."
#139: I am assuming you are not affected by the changes and therefore simply don't care that others might be. It may well be a minority, but it's certainly not just a few whingers. If you were affected yourself then no doubt you wouldn't be taking this attitude.
"I'm sick of people continuing moaning when they've been told that a change/reversal is not possible."
A reversal of the change is (technically) possible, the BBC just don't want to do it for reasons they have yet to present.
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136. At 10:41pm on 16 Jun 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
"If the British population had a choice and BBC had to rely on audience share for its revenues, it would change for the better or die a merciful death."
I find myself agreeing with you MAII - odd that - maybe I've missed you.
At least the sentiment is correct, but I don't think it is about the way the BBC is funded in the UK. The UK population have a huge choice - something in the region of 500 or more TV channels to choose from, 1000s of FM, Internet and Digital Radio stations and various 'on-demand' entertainment media. That said, the BBC is up there with the best in terms of programming quality and content. A lot less can be said for some commercial channels that really should die a merciful death.
BBC, all we want is that choice from you. Most Brits respect the BBC, I think, and I know from travelling around this world of ours, that many overseas patrons value the BBC on many levels. That value and respect, however, is in danger of being eroded away.
If a backward step is not possible, or maybe not likely, then how about a forward step to accommodate people who have justifiable grudges with these changes. In the UK, we have a wealth of iT professionals, some of whom have posted here offering their experience. Instead of giving blanket responses, how about giving us a proper, reasonable and detailed response explaining why this has happened, and how you intend to fix it.
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What exactly does this mean: "if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively"?
Explain it, please, if you want me to lump it. How on Earth does having the option to choose whether to view a UK site or an international site "put at risk your ability to develop the site effectively"? I am not stupid - I can understand most things at a rudimentary level at least, so please kindly explain yourself.
I am a UK licence fee payer; I am in the UK; I want to see the BBC's UK news website, which I pay for through a mandatory tax. What is the problem with serving properly the 60,000,000 people who pay for this service?
Seriously, it is unexplained stupidity like this that causes people to jump on the Daily Mail bandwagon of railing against the BBC and the licence fee.
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Can I suggest that instead of UK and International versions, that you introduce "News" and "Dumb News" editions?
This way some of us could avoid being insulted with "Obama Swats Fly", and "US Senator admits having affair" (hardly newsworthy in his hometown, never mind for a global audience), both current stories on the front page for International readers.
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#154. At 10:38am on 17 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
'The above just goes to show just how stupid all this is'
Yes, exactly, that was my point - to demonstrate how STUPID this is.
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I was pleased to see that the BBC recently won the People's voice award in the news category in the Webbys.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/05/webby_awards_thank_you.html#P
This was well deserved. It is interesting to note that the blog update announcing this only received 18 comments. The first blog post on the changes to the website attracted 667 comments. The second post has attracted 161 comments at the time of writing. The majority of these posts have been critical of the changes. It is a shame that such a succesful website has decided to alter its award winning format.
Last week before the changes I was asked to participate in a survey about the BBC news website - one of the things that I praised was the ability to switch between international and UK news, 2 days later this was gone. I don't feel that the BBC have satisfactorily explained the reasons for this, nor why the format cannot be changed to address peoples concerns.
Perhaps we need another Becky Mount to launch a facebook campaign against the changes - one large British Company has already had to bow to consumer demand - perhaps the same needs to happen to the BBC ?? Clearly reading Steve Hermanns comments above, writing on the BBC's own website has little effect...........
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Thanks also to this thread I have been able to check out free UK proxy servers and so I can now access the regular BBC UK news website, but why should I have to do this I ask as I live in the UK and pay my licence fee, council tax, and utility bills etc. here ! Actually the proxies work well but do not have enough bandwidth (at least the free ones I have checked out) to access the BBC live streams and i player, but it is clearly better than being force fed the dire International version.
The BBC with this crack pot decision have put me in a crazy place and I am extremely irritated about it. There are a great many negatve aspects to this decision and one of them that has been pointed out is to add to the anti BBC sentiment that is at large in the country at the moment.
I have been a great supporter of the BBC in the past and vehemently anti Murdoch but at least Murdoch understands his audience and gives them what they want which is more than can be said about this amazing faux pas of a decision.
Mr Herrmann (what a peculiar spelling by the way) in keeping a low profile is obviously hoping that this storm will simply blow out and go away, but I doubt it will as more and more people wake up to the fact of what has been taken away from them arbitrarily and without any consultation or seemingly valid research.
Ps. As a postscript I have also thanks to this thread discovered free American proxy servers and so am now able to watch American TV. That said it simply magnifies my irritation in losing the live BBC TV stream, reinforcing the impression as it does that American TV is by and large dire.
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Steve,
I'm on the BBC in these days now only to look at this blog and to see if you have the manners to give respond with more than a one-liner or a referal to a previous note, and MY it does seem to be taking you a long time to read all of these replies....
We're getting on ok with The Timesonline and will keep watching for other suggestions.
All change is not growth; as all movement is not forward.
Ellen Glasgow ..........(and if I could have used italics there I would have resorted to them.)
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I've just visited cnn.com and even they have buttons for changing between the U.S., an International and an Arabic version of their site. Works perfectly fine.
So maybe we should ask CNN about an UK version too, because one of their biggest competitors has just airily left the playing field. Either that, or the BBC's web development team is quite successful in covering up their technical ineptitude by deliberately leading the BBC's editorial team up a blind alley.
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I decided a few minutes agao, having read a prevoius post to use the proxy server that was given also in an earlier post.
Tey had an Item of news of Interest to the BBC News Editor, which when he decides to read all our posts he should take good note of, as it wil give him a good idea of how many people overseas are looking into the BBC in the UK from overseas - that is, the relatively few of us.
"NEWS
We've had to remove access to the BBC iplayer for the time being, it was chewing our bandwidth at an alarming rate, sorry about this. if we get hold of some more bandwidth we'll switch it back on."
QED.
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Since my comments last week, I decided to look at the other UK media sites like The Times, The Guardian, The Independent, The Telegraph and I've got to say they're impressive and they all work from abroad, as I live abroad. They all have the simply ability of just clicking between Global News & UK News with what seems to be a full content for both regions. But what actually has now become the "clincher" for me, is the fact that when you click on their video presentations, they actually work straightaway. No need for proxy servers to access them or stupid little messages about "not available in your country". I wonder if this change has been another "idea" of the BBC's Director General Mark Thompson, who seems to have completely pee'd off most of his staff and the public since he became the new D.G.
I'm off to use The Times website from now on and so it's "Goodbye BBC" or as the The Two Ronnies used to say "It's goodnight from me and it's goodnight from him...
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@164 - me too.
Using IP addresses to work out location and therefore interest is such a bad idea. Like it or not the BBC is a British news website and a lot of foreign viewers actually want to see the news site as displayed for the British viewers - that is its big draw. There are plenty of other news sites that we can get news from for an international perspective. If the BBC are trying to push themselves more into this, then fine, just not at the expense of their core deliverable - British news from a British perspective. Let us opt into an 'International version' sure, but don't take away the ability to get the 'British version.
The BBC news website don't normally get many things wrong, but they have on this one BIG TIME, and they need to realise it and correct it instead of just putting their fingers in their ears, making token posts, and hoping that people's boredom will drown out the discontentment. It might well do, but I've now started using the British newspaper's websites (Times, and Guardian in particular) as my source of news because of it.
(Perhaps it's a ploy to lower their server/bandwidth costs)
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Dear Mr Herrmann,
If you are currently updating your CV, I will be pleased to figure on your reference list in order to recommend the outstanding job you have done at the BBC.
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It's simple. NEVER EVER click on any of their adverts. I mean who wants "religious" rubbish like "Who delivers today the same message Mr. Armstrong taught decades ago?"?
One thing I'm puzzled by is people saying they are licence payers and therefore they have more rights than those Britons unwise enough not to have chosen to live in the UK. I thought the licence fee(which I would happily pay had I not been so foolish as to decide to live in Japan rather than the UK) referred solely to BBC television, not to the internet news content. Am I wrong?
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As Steve Herrmann has not yet replied to all the posts, I guess he and his colleagues don't know what to do next.
Maybe we need to ask for help from Joanna Lumley to point out to the BBC the error of their way.
I am in the UK and I want to receive the UK version (without adverts) whether or not I have a foreign proxy supplied by my company VPN.
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15:30 and still no reply from Steve. Not even a comment apologising for the delay in replying. Meanwhile the blog continues to fill up with people overwhelmingly displeased with the changes.
Unbelievable!
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I have always relied on BBC News for objective and accurate reporting. However, selecting what people in different parts of the world can and cannot read smacks of censorship to me. I would prefer to retain the option to select what I want to read. I hope you can come up with a solution. Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
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@lilykamakura (comment 171):
One thing I'm puzzled by is people saying they are licence payers and therefore they have more rights than those Britons unwise enough not to have chosen to live in the UK. I thought the licence fee(which I would happily pay had I not been so foolish as to decide to live in Japan rather than the UK) referred solely to BBC television, not to the internet news content. Am I wrong?
- Yes, you are wrong. The income generated by the licence fee (over GBP 3 billion per year) is used to pay for all the BBC's activity - radio, television and Internet - with the exception of some limited overseas commercial activity. A very small proportion of the licence fee is also given to S4C, the Welsh language television station. This webpage explains more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/research/licence_fee_collection/keyfacts.html
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......Interesting, Changes To International Pages 1 (6 hundred and something posts) seems to have disappeared. Stop The Blocking NOW!
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#175
"Yes, you [lilykamakura's comment @ #171] are wrong. The income generated by the licence fee (over GBP 3 billion per year) is used to pay for all the BBC's activity"
No, sorry but it is you who have got it wrong, the point being made @ #171 is that there is no requirement for a BBC radio or website user to have a valid TV licence (the exception, in the case of the website, being the video version of the BBC iPlayer, noted to that effect on any such content), it matters not a jot if someone is a UK citizen in the UK or resident in Timbuktu - the Royal Charter, also, actually put a duty on the BBC to connect with the UK and the world.
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176. At 4:51pm on 17 Jun 2009, oceandriver wrote:
"......Interesting, Changes To International Pages 1 (6 hundred and something posts) seems to have disappeared"
Oceandriver - they're all still there. Go to the top of this blog and find the 'original post explaining the changes' link, it will take you to the Changes (1) entry. 500 posts on page1, another 167 or so on page2.
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Good old Boilerplated in his/her #152 prompted me to add my two-centsworth! Since most people were saying the same as I thinking, I thought I didn't need to comment. However, perhaps the Beeb is counting multiple posters as one complaint so I will add my name to the considerable list of those who HATE this change. What a double-take I did last Wednesday when my home page (BBC news.co.uk) opened up to the blasted International edition and the choice button had disappeared!!
This is my first time ever to join a blog so that shows how annoyed I am.
Thanks also to those who suggested a proxy server,
Another ex-pat
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181. At 5:06pm on 17 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
"Still available for me - in the UK"
...to confirm, still available to me too, from the UK, but using an overseas IP to connect back to the BBC - so in UK, but viewing the international edition, which if possible, I'd like to change, but hey, that's just going around in circles (848 or so since the first post). Am I just in danger of repeating myself - I fear it is so
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Well thank you very much for NOT listening BBC! You give us no warning, no notice, not much in the way of an explanation for these changes and then arrogantly tell your audience that this is being done to improve our experience of the BBC online prescence. Nonsense!!! The only thing which will now improve my experience involves taking my online loyalty somewhere else where it is actually welcomed and appreciated.
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Nice .. complained to BBC Trust and I get a reply from Ian Hunter "Managing Editor BBC Online". Basically I was told to read the blog article called 'change_to_international_pages', where I am free to comment.
Evidently Mr Hunter hasn't read that blog piece (its closed to new comments) or the 600+ comments complaining about the new set-up.
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I shall try to comment again, it seems the Politburo censored my previous comment.
What I was going to say is that no one who has watched any other BBC "comment" programme (Radio 4's Feedback, Points of View etc) should be surprised at this reponse. The stock BBC response to any complaint is to either ignore it, or give a patronising view from the producer of said programme where all complaints are dimissed and the viewers are "educated" in how they are always wrong.
It's one of the benefits of being funded by a tax payable even by those who don't wish to consume your product.
I shall keep attempting to get my views across for a couple of days, if I don't see my posts moderated I shall contact my MP/MEP and the BBC Trust to see just why I am being censored.
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@3 - I sympathise with your position. If you subscribe to the BBC (as long as the amount is equivalent to a UK licence fee) then you should have the same access to content as a UK citizen.
Subscription is preferable to ads, anyway. At one time we were told the BBC must never have ads anywhere near it as it would effect its impartiality or ability to cater to all, but look we have ads and the BBC's world hasn't stopped turning...
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I am still in the dark as to how I can access the UK Have Your Say. As far as I can see this content is blocked as I am accessing the BBC website from an IP address from outside the UK. This despite the fact that I am British. I am also assuming that those within the UK cannot see the International version of Have Your Say. The BBC cannot say that the Have Your Say content is the same for both the UK and International versions. This is selective censorship and as such I believe that is a violation of the law. If not it is an insult to all those that have fought for this country and it's rights.
I don't doubt that all the comments from the previous "blog" were read, I also believe that all of them were dismissed with the wave of Mr Herrmanns hand. The following statement proves it.
"Many of you have explained why you liked being able to choose whether you see the UK or international version of the site, wherever you are in the world. The changes mean that's now decided automatically, depending on your IP address - where you are. For many of you living outside the UK, in particular, that means you now see the international front page, which isn't the one you'd choose."
I think you misunderstood (or chose to misunderstand) what was said. People liked to choose which version of the site we wanted to see. Note the word CHOOSE. I do not want you to choose something for me, I am not a child!! Who are you to CHOOSE something for me?! I also would like to CHOOSE to see both the UK and International versions of the front page and the Have Your Say. You have decided to deny myself and your other reader this CHOICE. In other words you are censoring what I view and that is similar to China blocking the BBC website, only you are blocking access to parts of the website. I know you state that all the content is available, but it is not, as I have already stated, both versions of Have Your Say are not available depending on where people are and also I gather Money Matters is not available to the people accessing from IP addresses outside the UK.
From your above comments, you state that in the future there will be more flexibility. What I do not understand is why these changes have been implemented when they are not fully functional. Why not try them out on a test website prior to full implementation?
"There may be other things you'd like to see in that UK section, in which case please tell us. And if there's anything else we can think of, or you can suggest, to improve things right now, we'll try and do it."
I would like to see both the UK and the International version of Have Your Say, I have requested a link to the UK version, but got the standard fobbing off reply, so I ask again. Can you put a link somewhere (even email it) to the UK version of Have Your Say?
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So we have a clear admission that part (all?) of the change is to allow the BBC to collect advertising revenue. Fair enough. I live outside the UK and do not pay a licence fee. I have no objection to advertising in those circumstances. However, I got adverts (and no access to iPlayer) for several months with the old system. The BBC has failed to explain why the change is necessary. Will you now do so and will you give some specifics?
I was interested in the adverts being foisted upon licence fee payers in the UK. If I were in the UK I would be livid at a serious breach of the BBC Charter. Clearly, the BBC needs to sort that and it needs to do so as a matter of urgency.
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#189 ccrazed2
"I am still in the dark as to how I can access the UK Have Your Say."
Direct access seems still to be blocked but you can get to all active HYS fora here.
It seems daft to prevent expats and foreigners discussing HYS topics with onshore Brits. I'd express it more colourfully but was moderated for doing so on the previous thread.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Forget redeveloping the international news site.. Why don't the BBC just put some adverts on this blog page. They'd make a fortune!
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I am very disappointed by this change.
I have changed my home page from news.bbc.co.uk to the Guardian. I will not be back until the change is reversed.
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to quote
"if we don't make these basic changes to versions, we'll be putting at risk our ability to develop the site effectively, and that's not something we think is in our interests, or yours"
If this is what your technical development leads are telling you , then I respectfully suggest you look for more competent development people, who will not be blowing smoke and pure hogwash your way.
There is NO technical reason not to have the same functionality and access and still reach your goals of providing advertising revenue, explanation, control, access etc.
If your technical guys are telling you otherwise then you really have a fundamental problem as you will never get what your after as you simply have at best incompetent technical advise that will ensure your goals fail
And on top of that you really are ignoring what the users of this site are telling you many of still paying a license fee even though we spend the most of our time outside the UK
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I signed up only to register my disappointment with this change - hopefully weight of numbers will have some impact.
As an Englishman away from the country, it's not only important to get the news - it's important for it to be given context in an editorial setting.
Currently on the BBC Sport homepage, North Korea qualifying for the World Cup is the lead story. Now I know this is not the top story in the UK, I know this isn't what people are talking about... so now I have to go looking and largely decide for myself what the top story is (Drogba).
It may be laziness, it may be a comfort blanket - but I need to click on the BBC Sport homepage and immediately find out what people are talking about - to be told what the top story is. I don't want to go looking for it - the front and back page philosophy is more than a news editor's judgement, it's a cultural thing - it lets me tap into a small piece of England.
It feels like a little window to England has been closed for me, and I have found myself going elsewhere.
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I'm just intrigued that Mr Herrmann hasn't commented about the absence of "Have Your Say" and "Your Money" to international readers. Now that I've switched to a proxy server I can access the content but I wonder if he would care to clarify how that sits with the original claim that content wouldn't be lost.
However, given the lack of response over two blogs now, I won't hold my breath.
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Lets go back to the 1970-80's for a few seconds.
Do you remember these remarks ??...
The Auntie BBC
Always knows the best for its viewers and listeners
An arrogant attitude to viewers and listeners complaints
A self rightous attitude to the delivery of programmes we were supposed to enjoy
Oh well !History repeats itself again i suppose
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#193 Brownedov
"Direct access seems still to be blocked but you can get to all active HYS fora here .
It seems daft to prevent expats and foreigners discussing HYS topics with onshore Brits. I'd express it more colourfully but was moderated for doing so on the previous thread."
Thank you very much Brownedov, that is much appreciated.
Why couldn't the BBC do that? This just shows how inept the news team are, leaving their customer support to their customers.
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For all who have been wondering about the cited but never mentioned rational for these changes the following URL starts to shed some light;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jun/16/bbc-worldwide-luke-bradley-jones-managine-director
Still no official reply from Steve, or anyone else within the BBC, for that matter.
I Trust that no one will find this comment either off topic or abusive etc, far to much censorship from the BBC of late...
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You are more likely to find out what is going on from Mr Herrmann's Twitter page than this blog.
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This thread is becoming a farce, with no answers from the originator to the reasonable questions raised by most of us and the moderators now removing all but the mildest criticism of the BBC in a more draconian way than I have ever seen before, in the course of posting more than 3,000 posts on BBC blogs.
The criticism will simply not go away until and and unless the BBC explains why the changes "are necessary to enable us to continue to develop the site internationally" as Mr Herrmann claims in the header. Even then, we need an apology for the erroneous assertion in Mr Herrmann's original post on the changes that "all the same content will be available as now", which is demonstrably untrue regarding HYS and Your Money.
Imposing advertisments and reducing the video content available to us has largely been accepted with good grace, but the arrogance displayed by these unexplained changes, which many of us with web design experience strongly suspect is due to poor analysis of your needs, can only damage the BBC's reputation at home and abroad.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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So now valid comments criticizing Steve Herrmann's lack of (promised) response and general lack of respect for our opinions seem to be systematically being moderated. This is reminding me of the way Michael Martin behaved over the expenses scandal. And look what happened to him...
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I know this has all been said before but the BBC need to understand how many people are affected sufficently to be moved to comment. I feel let down by the BBC. I am a UK citizen living in Ireland. I paid a UK TV licence for many years and now pay Sky so I can watch the BBC. The BBC website has always been my first choice for news and now I just hate the site. However "minor" the changes are they are enough to force me to go elsewhere.
Maybe I am being too simplistic but why do we need two versions? None of the other main new sites have two versions. Why cant we just have the UK version regardless of where we are in the world. I dont care if some of the media doesn't play, it is a better compromise than the awful international version.
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I can only suspect that we still haven't been given plausible reasons for the change because there aren't any.
I have discovered an article from 2001 on news.zdnet.co.uk at the time when BBCNews.com was supposed to be launched as the international version (for all non-UK visitors) criticising the very thing people are unhappy with now - being dictated to because the BBC knows best. I won't quote from the article though as no doubt the very direct criticism would be reason enough to censor the post.
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#208 robyn_orange
"Why cant we just have the UK version regardless of where we are in the world. I dont care if some of the media doesn't play, it is a better compromise than the awful international version."
You're lucky to have access to the "real" BBC programmes via Sky. Here in Switzerland, dishes are often banned and most of us are stuck with the truly awful output of BBC Prime and World News via cable.
Come to think of it, the "awful international version" of this website is very like the output of BBC World News, where even the MP expenses scandal barely got a mention until today with the publication of the bowdlerised version of their expense claims, and the ads are the same dreary ones we now get as a lead-in to the little video still available to us on this site.
Ever since the BBC World Service dropped their News about Britain bulletins, the amount us expats can find out about what's going on in blighty via BBC transmissions has been in deep decline. Even more concerning is that news programming which this website previously streamed for the past decade such as Question Time, This Week, Newsnight, The Daily Politics, Sunday AM and The Politics Show have all been stopped for expats.
It's almost as though, in the run-in to the general election, UK political activity is being downplayed along with the need for international supervision of UK elections following all the recent "postal voting" and other electoral scandals. As commentators like Nick Robinson finally start questioning instead of merely repeating UK government press releases it is a pity that expats, many of whom retain the right to vote in the UK, can no longer get to watch them.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I totally agree with post 207. As I wrote in my moderated post (202), I shall write to the Director General about this situation.
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I as a lot of other people would like the choice of the International front page. I used the International version as my default option when using the BBC News site.
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More from Twitter?
Wrote follow-up blog post on site editions changes http://bit.ly/BEoZV. Reading more of the feedback and discussing with project team.11:00 AM Jun 15th from TweetDeck
Spending most of today in editorial review of our online sites for UK nations and regions, looking at how we're doing6:45 AM Jun 16th from TweetDeck
I often wondered where the Norwegian Blue Parrot went. It would appear to squawk when news from Iran is censored. When the BBC censors news about and within the UK it remains silent.
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I didnt say it was much, I said it was more. For instance, I found out that "Loss of choice for users" is the main concern of Mr. Herrmann, from the issues raised so far. Until I read the Twitter page I had the feeling that he wasnt overly concerned about anything.
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As disappointed and angered as I am with the changes that the BBC have made to the website by removing the option to change between the UK and international versions, I am even more disappointed that Mr Herrmann has not responded to any of the comments made over the last 3 days. Mr Herrmann, you have received over 800 comments, primarily registering complaints about the new reduced service you are providing your website users and so this is clearly not an insiginificant problem. Might it not be courteous to give an updated response?
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#210 Brownedov
My symapthies regarding the lack of English TV channels. I have the same problem in Russia and I was struck today by the similarity in content between the BBC World News and the international website
This is not what I want, BBC - I can get international news on BBC World,CNN,Euronews and even Russia Today
The link sent by Boilerplated #204 is worth reading. I think the crucial part is
"BBC.com claims that it has signed up more than 400 advertisers in the 18 months since BBC.com was opened to online advertising for the first time.
"I'm looking forward to building on this success as we look to introduce significant new products and services for international audiences and advertisers in the next year," said Bradley-Jones.
As suggested in previous posts we expats are being targeted for advertising.
To be honest I am not too fussed about the ads, or iPlayer, but please give me a version that I can customise to provide me, in one view, with the UK content that I had previously
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I am another who has registered just to comment on this issue, which is of course much wider than "Changes to international pages". Although it does seem to be becoming a pointless blog and something of a farce as the BBC can no longer be bothered to respond to the legitimate points being made.
I am writing from the perspective of a Uk resident and licence payer whose ISP is AOL. I think there are around 1.7 million AOL UK subscribers which must include an awful lot of licence paying households.
However, I totally agree with the overwhelmingly negative responses from the contributors to this blog both in the UK and abroad. Freedom of access to the BBC UK news site is good for the BBC, Britain and Democracy.
My first response of annoyance has turned to anger and disgust at the BBC. Its failure to deal with the problem AOL UK users have is reprehensible. The BBC without warning and without a subsequent satisfactory explanation has withdrawn access to the BBC UK site and all that covers. It is not true that all the current services are available; they are not: I can't access iplayer or BBC Northern Ireland for example - the latter of particular importance to me. If the BBC did not realise the changes would have this impact it has shown itself to be incompetent. It is even more worrying if it was aware of the consequences for licence payers like me and chose to ignore them. I suppose an answer to this aspect is out of the question? Either way there has not even been an apology for the removal of this service!
So at the moment I have no idea if the BBC is going to deal with the problem it alone has caused and its failure to fufil its duty of responsiblity to licence payers. In the meantime it has succeeded in adding a lifelong and passionate supporter to the ever increasing numbers of detractors.
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Now being able to change my IP's geolocation to "UK" if I need to, I noticed the following:
In principle, each "Have your say" topic is accessible for UK and non-UK users, but only if you know the link to the topic's page.
Currently, on the international "Have your say" page there is no link to:
1. Should MPs' expenses claims be blacked out?
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=6612&edition=1&ttl=20090618122609
2. Who should be the next Speaker?
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=6608&edition=1&ttl=20090618122640
The site visitors with an UK IP address have no links on their "Have your say" start page for the following topics:
1. Are you up for the World Cup?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/8093151.stm
2. Are you feeling the pinch?
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=6607&edition=2&ttl=20090618124356
Dear BBC: This is a joke, right? Either that, or your IT department can now market its censorship how-to to China.
I always regarded the "Have your Say" pages as getting a window into the public opinion of the UK's population, and now the BBC is effectively banning communication and exchange of opinion between the UK's people and the rest of the world!
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I think it's progress that complaints are in the open in the form of a blog.
(so that there's no doubt and no discussion about what the complaints actually are as everyone can see them and contribute)
The change has obviously messed up the site for many people.
To Brownedov #210:
So if there were hundreds of complaints years ago about the original change to move from a single website for all, to a configurable UK-International one: "too complicated, it's no longer objective, everyone should see the same, if it's not broke..., hopeless etc", would you have implemented the original change or reversed it? Maybe robyn_orange in #208 is right about having one version.
A vote from direct feedback always seems to go against any change, but maybe not if it's something brand new and different that hasn't existed before. So the general rule seems to be that change is ok if it adds things but never if it takes them away!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I too now have had a post removed because it is alleged that it broke the house rules which for the record are:
"Comments posted to BBC blogs will be removed if they are considered likely to provoke, attack or offend others; are racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive or otherwise objectionable; are considered to have been posted with an intention to disrupt; contain swear words (including abbreviations or alternative spellings) or other language likely to offend."
Which frankly is amazing because I can categorically state that nothing in my post fell into any of those categories ! I know what "flaming" is and I cetainly did not do that. I simply stated that the focus of attention now seems to have shifted to the situation in Iran and the importance of twittering !!
The parrallel with Iran and censorship is in every sense quite ironic.
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We are still waiting for a response.
We (your once faithful and trusting readers) have had enough. We are taking our 'adclicks' elsewhere in droves. The contributors to this blog will be merely the tip of the iceberg.
We feel censored in that UK material is no longer available to us. "Your Money" and other UK topics are now secret.
Why is it secret? We don't know why. THIS is the problem, you are no longer "Speaking Peace Unto Nation".
You are no longer telling us the truth.
You say that UK material IS available to us.
Prove it.
"Freedom Of Information".
Come on.
In common with many others at the moment I actively HATE this site. I never would have thought that I'd write that, but I can't have faith in it anymore.
There are more important things you should be doing that arguing this unwinable case.
Get on with your proper job and give the world the truth- and THAT includes US.
Perhaps you don't care, Mr Herrmann, about the truth.
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221. At 2:32pm on 18 Jun 2009, craigblaircable wrote:
"I too now have had a post removed because it is alleged that it broke the house rules...."
I think the clause 'or otherwise objectionable' is the one they probably used. I've just had one removed on the 'Stop the Blocking' blog - ironic really.
As for these changes, I'm out of suggestions - 4 days since the last update. Don't the BBC want any customers. Are they trying to totally alienate a completely loyal and properly respective audience. I think of all the times I've promoted the BBC, in Radio, TV, DigiTV and this latest media - being able to talk right back at them in semi-realtime, not a day going by where I don't stand up for the BBC or promote it in some way, and now, they decide that what I say is 'offensive'.
The more this goes on, the more I become disillusioned with the people behind this. Is this the BBC I've grown up with and held a pride for all my life? No, this is not. This is an alien BBC, an imposter.
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Dear Mr. Herrmann,
Thank you for replying at the top of this page that you have read all our postings. You say it is very clear that many of us who have posted do not like the changes. You also say "there's one fewer choice you can make - selecting your edition." Well it seems to me that we have been given a leave it or lump it reply, and to be very honest, it's what most of us thought we'd get. You obviously have no time for British residents overseas having the complete coverage of events at home that we were formerly able to see.
I wonder if it has occurred to you that we chose the UK version because we did not want to use the overseas version? Some forewarning of the change would have been polite to say the least. We could have voiced our concerns.
I have answered many questionaires that have popped up on my screen when I have logged onto the BBC website, gladly. If you had given us the chance via a questionaire about the proposed change then many of us would have filled in the information you would have wanted and filled in the comments section you usually provide if we felt we needed to add with relish. You chose the dictatorial method of enforcing a change.
You say towards the end of your reply to us all above that " we'll get to work on making some changes to the site which we think you actually will like!". OK sir, you know my e-mail address as you sent me a note saying you had deleted a comment I posted on the Iranian blockade, so please, write to me and tell me just what it is you think I'll "actually like". Tell me what I, who preferred the UK version, will like on this International version, that I previously avoided, will like. I am very suspicious that you know what my tastes actually are.
Yours respectfully,
Giant_of_Nancledra - No relation to "giantCornishman"
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To prove my point. At 1553 on 18th June, the BBC site in the UK has a story. There is no trace of it on the page that I have to use.
This is censorship. I know the story is there. I can't see it on the BBC News site I have to use, imposed on me and others.
The same story is there on SKY News. So, from now on which site do you think I'll use Mr. Herrmann?
Come on Mr Herrmann,
sort this now.
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In reply to comments @ #223
"The more this goes on, the more I become disillusioned with the people behind this. Is this the BBC I've grown up with and held a pride for all my life? No, this is not. This is an alien BBC, an imposter."
Or just political interference, why else offer two distinctly different versions, and why else is the BBC being so heavy handed on removing comments that aren't "on-message".
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If any more proof were needed I note the link to the original blog and the nearly 700 posts has disappeared !
History is being rewritten. Pretty soon it is clear to me having had a post removed I will no longer exist. i will disappear as though I were in Stalinist Russia !
Clearly if we dont go away we are being made to vanish. If it weren't so serious a matter it would be vaguely amusing in a surreal way.
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In reply to comments made @ #227
At the risk of being modded again for defending the BBC, no it's still there, at least on my UK version;
"As I said in my original post explaining the changes:"
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@227 and your surreal comment:
Ironic that Steve's colleague Jon Williams posted an entry on reporting restrictions in Iran today which started:
"Sometimes, it's the absurd that tells the real story"
and ends
"It's why the Ayatollah is probably right to be afraid of that mouse!"
Funny how these blog entries seem to be running in parallel...
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Here is another problem with the changes here on the BBC.
International users are to be subjected to advertising. Many have said they do not mind advertising as a way to fund their use of the BBC. Fair point.
UK users do not get advertising. This is because, from our perspective, it is our license fee that pays for the BBC.
As a UK user, UK resident user, but my access being thru an overseas provider, I get, as already mentioned, the international version as default. Because of this, my browser is constantly transferring data from pix04.revsci.net - an AdAware site. This will increase traffic on my network, reduce bandwidth, and because I'm viewing from work, will likely flag excessive use to my iT department.
Thanks again, BBC. This will no doubt affect many people, not just those who have taken the time, care and obviously have the passion about this, enough to write on this blog. It may be the case, as in with my current internet policy at work, to have certain sites blocked at corporate level. This is not something I could override, and if it affects me, you can guarantee it will affect many many UK users who may have their access revoked by employers because of this constant data transfer.
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In case anyone's counting, it would appear that this is actually post 898
not 231.
This excludes those that seem to have broken house rules.
I wonder what they said?
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It now appears that quoting Steve Herrmann from another Blog posting when he makes a point that is relevant to this issue also gets you moderated. This is ludicrous. I've made a complaint to the BBC Trust. I'd urge everyone who feels equally aggrieved - not only with the substantive matter of this story, but how it is being suppressed and moderated - to do the same.
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#232
Sorry to say but these changes and failure to get any response bar the repeated statements of the original statement - if you follow me - has driven me largely away from the BBC website now. I don't even see much point in complaining any more, any complaint, here or elsewhere just gets rejected - it's not even moderation but censorship.
Good-Bye BBC.
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In reply to boilerplated @ #228
Yes the original blog does still exists out there somewhere but the link to it has gone ! So anybody coming new to this blog will not know there was an earlier one with nearly 700 posts. Not unless they methodically work through all that has been posted here and pick up on it that way !
And by implication my point was that at some stage the hyperlink you have to the first blog wont work and that will be because the blog will have vanished into cyber space ! Part of the strategy to make the problem and also we disgruntled people go away.
To the best of my knowledge there was actually no explanation why the original blog was closed and the new one opened, so given that the "Conspiracy Theory" blog created 3000+ responses and the "Gaza Appeal" some 2000+ what exactly was the point of that action ?
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In reply to craigblaircable
as was my point in #176, I thought I was going mad, or is that what I'm supposed to feel, that or bored? Bored of the News presention, yes, but not of the cause, BEEB you can do better.
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Complaint number 2 .. sent off to BBC Trust (which was actually answered by the BBC Online department and referred me to the first blog comment)
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Funny,I seem to be able to see the original article and posts when I click on the link in the sentence following the first two paragraphs at the top of this page - "As I said in my original post explaining the changes".
I'm stuck with the International edition being overseas, so you in the UK should be able to find it too.
I wonder why Steve H's last post a few days ago was deleted by the moderator, all I remember him saying was that he would read the comments then reply to them (at his leisure apparently). How can that be off-topic etc. etc. Could it be that HE has been deleted, have his head in the sand or has self-distructed?
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in reply to #237
Please stay civil (for all our sakes), as for the removed comment, it might have been removed when that blog was updated to make mention of this new blog if you see what I mean, it makes sense.
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233. At 5:59pm on 18 Jun 2009, Boilerplated wrote:
"...has driven me largely away from the BBC website now..."
"...Good-Bye BBC..."
Oh dear, another decent and actively constructive poster bites the dust, BBC. I can only say that I feel the same.
I won't of course, because I'm still interested in what might come out of this, but my visits to the News Homepage will be less, if ever. Maybe taking part in these blogs only, after reading our news elsewhere, will give a us all a different slant on the responses eh?
I hope you don't leave us Boilerplated - the bloggers and us posters will surely miss you.
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(1) As I've said before, I wanted the availability of BOTH the international site ("news.bbc.co.uk/2", which may become something like "news.BBC.com") and the site that UK readers see ("news.bbc.co.uk/1"), because at different times, different versions are more useful.
For example, if the international pages were dominated by U.S. domestic news I already read in better detail, balance and nuance on American sites, while a complicated, fast-breaking but obscure British or Northern Irish story (e.g. a split in the UDA, SNP or LDP) was more important, then I'd want to see the UK front page (not the UK section, but the balance of world and domestic news that UK readers see). Contrariwise, if otherwise-slow British and American news were both monopolised by trivia that displaced coverage of complicated, changing, controversial stories from the Continent, Commonwealth and Third World, then I'd want to see the International front page.
The radio button was an enormous help to me, as it saved having to make complicated customisations every time I wanted to switch, but it's not essential.
As I've said above (no. 71), there's an interim stopgap for the overseas (and involuntarily "overseas" but licence-paying) reader who wants to see the news budget for the UK front page at the text-reader page at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/education/betsie/parser.pl/0005/news.bbc.co.uk/
Unfortunately, there seems at the moment (given the main purposes of the "Betsie" site) to be no equivalent for UK residents who want to see what the BBC is presenting to overseas readers. (The international site may eventually become more commercial, but since it still represents Broadcasting House and the United Kingdom to foreigners, I think British voters are still entitled to see what's being offered in their name.)
(2) The different links to the two parts of this blog topic are actually easily found; they're differentiated merely by the letter "s" after "change":
Part I:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/change_to_international_pages.html
Part II (this one):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/changes_to_international_pages.html
(3) I don't know why posts are being hidden because of "House Rules", but I have to say I was a bit upset by craigblaircable's reference to Steve Herrmann's last name. (The spelling isn't strange to Americans because Edward Herrmann, born in Washington, D.C., in 1943, was the title actor in a successful TV drama series.)
My Polish-Jewish grandparents left German-occupied Antwerp for London during World War One, and lost many of their relatives to the Holocaust of World War Two, but I still object to judging people by their last names. Without many scientists and commanders with Germanic-looking last names (e.g., Einstein, Oppenheimer, Teller, Lindemann, Türing, Nimitz, Battenberg/Mountbatten, Eisenhower), it would have been far harder to defeat the Axis. And if that's an acceptable way to judge or suspect people today, then who really won the war?
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Firstly I express my agreement and solidarity with the vast majority of the many hundreds of previous commentators who so eloquently put the case for the reversal of this ill-judged change.
The BBC is a British national institution. British people should have access to all content provided by the BBC regardless of where we may live.
I have have viewed the BBC website on a daily basis since my move to Austria 9 years ago and consider it to be a vital source of information about my country. The new international version of the website is awful. For ex-patriot Britons the recent changes remove a vital link to our homeland, which will be sorely missed.
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Careful now. Not all expatriates are ex-patriots.
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In reply to DsDave # 240
I must complain most vociferously that you chose to imply that some throw away comment of mine concerning Steve Herrmanns surname spelling implies anti semetism on my part! That frankly is an outrageous conclusion to draw and I take the strongest possible exception to it.
I am staggered that the moderators have allowed you to make such a statement, and am I dissappointed that you clearly have such thin and sensitive skin ! Moreover that you should have been allowed to address your comments so well wide of the mark and in such a long winded and personal fashion unfortunately says much about the way this particular blog is being monitored and audited.
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I don't understand. Why hasn't the owner of this blog article responded?Its now more than three days after the original posting.
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I live in Britain, pay my licence fee (and always have have done!) and now, because my ISP is AoL(UK), I cannot get the BBC UK news pages nor watch the media streams. Would somebody get the finger out PDQ and sort this nonsense!
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It is my opinion that the BBC Editorial Team are in breach of two of the six public purposes in the BBC charter. I express this further at:
http://graemejwsmith.com/2009/06/bbc-news-blows-it.html
If you agree with my sentiment then I encourage you to complain to:
BBC Trust
BBC Feedback Forum
Department of Arts and Culture.
Your MP (though I suspect they are a bit busy hiding their expenses at this time - give them a useful diversion).
Yes there has been three days silence - but like the Iranians - keep making noise about an unsatisfactory situation - they cannot keep ignoring the noise indefinitely.
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From Mr. Herrmann's Twitter page:
"We're still looking at possible options. We're also working on more detailed replies to specific questions."
How about actually posting these little gems of information on here instead of Twittering about them? Seriously!
I also see someone has alerted Stephen Fry to the issue, so lets hope for some big hitters joining us.
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I don't mind the change for international -v- UK versions , but can you please remove the adverts from the pages? I want information and ad-free content; I get plenty of mindless adverts on other websites - the BBC is lowering itself to another generic news channel, when its reputation globally is for content and commentary - it used to be my refuge on the web.
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In reply to neillydun # 247
It was precisely concerning the relative priority Mr Herrmann was showing between his blog here and current events in Iran, and the new wave craze of "twittering", that got my earlier post withdrawn, drawing as I did unfavourable conclusions from it and the differing priorities of the News Editor.
I still think it is lamentable that after all the points raised by several hundred posters over almost a week that no substantive replies have been posted by Mr Herrmann in response to these most serious issues.
And if the point is to be made, what is more important the events in Iran and the style of news presentation we have to endure through the geolocation of proxy issue, I would state the comparison is completely erroneous. It is like comparing apples and pears.
The issue surely is how and where and in what format we like to receive our news, and it is down to each indiviual who logs onto the BBC News page what importance he attaches to each story. The fact that all the Domestic information is still not available through the International page serves to underline the point.
By logging onto one of the free proxy servers identified earlier in the blog (and readily found using Google) it is quite an easy task to compare the two. And a relatively cursory examination will reveal that they are still quite different in content.
That the posts have become increasingly more fractious is obviously a function of the frustration caused by Mr Herrmanns apparent lack of interest in his own blog, and the uneccessary and unwelcome changes that have been arbitrarily foisted upon us.
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Hoping that this isn't judged off topic, indeed it's posted in an attempt to stop off topic comments here, there is a current blog re moderation policy etc. elsewhere on the BBC blogophier;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/06/moderation_lets_talk_about_it.html
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#248 dg-bath
"I don't mind the change for international -v- UK versions , but can you please remove the adverts from the pages?"
We're in fundamental disagreement over this. Ads are something us expats have had to put up with for some time and are a reasonable price to pay for access to the site, especially given the BBC funding model, and the BBC approach is significantly less awful than most, except for the awful video clips which precede the little video still available on the website.
The problem is content, content, content followed by choice. The "old" BBC website was never going to please every anglophone outwith the UK, but it was a pretty good compromise, having much to commend it for everyone. Now it simply pleases the BBC web team.
One other issue that needs addressing is that what flash video is available only works correctly with broadband and an excellent connection. In the UK, both may be the norm but that it untrue of much of the rest of the world - especially the physical connection across the web at peak times. YouTube, Sky and other sites using flash compensate for this by allowing background downloading of content even when paused, in the same way that Real player allows it for audio content. With an erratic connection, patience allows you to view such video content smoothly and in full. This is not true of BBC video content.
If the BBC ever listens to this thread, that's the next priority for international users once choice has been restored.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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I've been coming back here for the last few days hoping for more of a response (or better still a solution as brain-damaging your own product doesn't seem to be that sensible).
So while I can listen to Today on R4 in the mornings over the internet, I can't now follow the developing stories during the day on the website. But my guess is it's a fait accompli and I'll just have to break a habit and get used to somewhere else being my first source for news from now on.
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And we still await a response...
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Come on Mr Herrmann, nearly 2 days ago you told us you were reading these comments and would get back to us. I think you've had more than enough time now, don't you? Any sort of response would be at least polite I would have thought. Are you still there, or have you just left this blog to fend for itself? I suspect the latter. Go on, prove me wrong.
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Lo and behold - despite not being technically possible it still exists!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm
Only works for the front page - once you click on any of the links it will work out you are snooping from foreign lands and then its back to the BBC world service
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Dear BBC Team,
Congratulations to your new design for broader view.
This is good on new technology,applications are concerned.
For me, i find difficult to find that,whether all my comments were published,if not,what was the reason,either moderated,or rejected or want of space or the concerned topics are closed.
Please make us to surf this website by easier and quicker ways.
In one leading American News website, i saw editors discussions,readers views on line,immediately,i posted my comments,and all my comments were published by online.
Kindly en lighten me on this regard.
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Thanks Daniel78Daniel78 @255 feels like coming home, have bookmarked it and it'll do for now.
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Luckily, there is now a growing number of non-BBC bloggers who've picked this up; search for "BBC news changes website blog" or similar, and ye shall find.
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Good spot Daniel!
Seems it will work for any address...for instance, the much fabled "Your Money"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/business/your_money/default.stm
All I need to do is work out a string substitution plugin for Firefox, and we are good to go!! :)
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#223 SHLA2UK
"I think the clause 'or otherwise objectionable' is the one they probably used. I've just had one removed on the 'Stop the Blocking' blog - ironic really.
...
The more this goes on, the more I become disillusioned with the people behind this. Is this the BBC I've grown up with and held a pride for all my life? No, this is not. This is an alien BBC, an imposter."
I fear that I have to agree with you. In a week, the BBC has demonstrably alienated hundreds - and most likely thousands - of its most vocal and loyal supporters, all for the want of giving us the facts rather than spin. It is truly ironic that this is the same week when it bemoans blocking of BBC signals by the Iranian government on Stop the blocking now.
I have just attempted to post the following on that thread, but every word is just as relevant here:
The Iranian blocking is indeed worrying for their infant semi-democracy, but the BBC are a pot calling the kettle black here.
A week into the BBC's introduction on this website of IP geolocation to discriminate and separate "home" from "international" users [I'd use the Africaans word for separate development but have already been moderated on the grounds of its being offensive] the BBC can hardly complain if others block its signals.
In the run in to what may be the most important general election ever in the UK, with the least democratic electoral system in the EU and an English judge calling certain electoral practices worthy of a banana republic, the UK's democratic credentials are under threat now as never before and the BBC should be keeping both its domestic and world audiences both informed and in touch with each other.
That might just give it back the high ground to be taken seriously on the issue of this thread.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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Fantastic ! Oh what joy .. Oh what bliss .. Its a very good day !
I now have full functionality back. I am getting the UK Home news page and live tv and video streams.
One wonders if this is just a fluke and a technical glitch, or whether indeed the BBC techies have struck some kind of deal and arrangement with AoL for UK based subscribers.
I am now wondering if our overseas posters have likewise noticed any simultaneous changes, for example the re-introduction of the "button" and ability to switch between editions.
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#259 neillydun
"Seems it will work for any address...for instance, the much fabled "Your Money""
Yes. Those wanting the UK version of HYS should try:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/talking_point/default.stm
Pity the auntie can't or won't automate this with .... er .... a radio button!
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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#261 craigblaircable
"I am now wondering if our overseas posters have likewise noticed any simultaneous changes, for example the re-introduction of the "button" and ability to switch between editions."
Nothing so simple and sensible. All we get is the same patronising: "Notice anything different?Find out about changes to the BBC News website" we've had ever since the BBC made this bad and, to date, unjustified decision.
And, BTW, it's not just "overseas" posters who get this. Those on the "wrong" side of the UK's sole land border in the Irish Republic suffer in the same way.
Post or reactive moderation for all except CBeebies, please!
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255. At 11:42am on 19 Jun 2009, Daniel78Daniel78 wrote:
Lo and behold - despite not being technically possible it still exists!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/default.stm
Only works for the front page - once you click on any of the links it will work out you are snooping from foreign lands and then its back to the BBC world service
Brilliant! Thanks. Is there an equivalent page for Sport?
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So I got a reply from the BBC Complaints department:
"I understand you're unhappy with the recent changes to our international version of bbc.co.uk and you'd like to be able to view the UK version of our website.
Some sections of the BBC website have changed in order to better promote the content for the international audience. Specifically, these sections are the BBC homepage, the News and Sport front pages and the pages for BBC TV and Radio programmes.
If you are located outside the UK you will be directed to the international editions of our pages. All stories are still available wherever you are in the world but some of the key pages such as the News front page show a more internationally focused range of headlines.
There's a full explanation on the BBC Editors' blog and you may also leave a comment on this page:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/06/change_to_international_pages.html
While we're not able to answer all emails individually, all feedback regarding the availability of the UK and International edition is being collated and considered."
What this misses, as do all of Steve's responses, is the core point most people are complaining about here. I don't want the BBC to "better promote content for the international audience" there are any number of websites that already do that and do it much better. What I want is the BBC's unique British editorial perspective that gives me a view of British and International news that is driving the news agenda in the UK. What bbc.co.uk has become now for those of us outside the UK is a bland international news website which is offering nothing unique - I've spent very little time on it since the changes and now reluctantly get my view of the UK news agenda from guardian.co.uk.
The discussions here about license fees, censorship and ability to customise are completely irrelevant. BBC.co.uk outside of the UK is supported by ad revenue so it should make no difference whether I pay the licence fee or not (in a similar way to how UK viewers who do not pay for CNN can still visit the CNN website because the ads pay for it). On censorship - this is not censorship, it's just shoddy web design, if the BBC does not have an international license for distributing video content then I do not expect to be able to view it outside the UK and I can cope with the odd occasion that a screen comes up telling me this, as much as I'd love to watch the BBC's Wimbledon coverage I live in the US where ESPN & NBC are the rights holders and that's that. And on customisation - I don't want to customise websites, I want someone with an intelligent editorial perspective to prioritise content for me - something that up until 2 weeks ago the BBC was very good at.
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Just popped back again after a few days of using other websites to see if anything has changed.
Nothing. Nowt. Nada. Rien. Zip.
Just more complaints from annoyed customers, both in the UK and abroad.
And ........ silence .... from the BBC and Mr Herrmann.
So it's back to my alternate websites (the Times, the Telegraph, the Guardian) for my British news.
Will check back in a few days to see if the Beeb has bothered to respond to the overwhelmingly negative feedback.
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It seems there are developments.
I wrote directly to Steve Herrmann earlier this week and he has now responded with a kind letter saying that he is looking into the case of UK users mistaken for International users.
He has also informed the technical deptartment who have also been personally in touch to discuss the specific problems with my ISP.
My problems aren't sorted yet but it appears we are not being ignored.
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#267: That's great and a step in the right direction but unfortunately still fails to address the issue that most non-UK users don't want the international version either. I would therefore welcome a proper explanation as to why the radio button solution is a problem. All the content is there anyway so rather than have the server choose let the user make the decision as before. As a website developer I simply fail to see why geolocation is necessary here, other than for protecting video content (as it has done up until now).
It's time the BBC made a statement on this without just referring anyone who omplains to a blog that isn't being responded to.
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It's taken a little while to go through your comments and questions. Our project team has helped me by answering a number of them in this new post.
On the wider issue of being able to choose access to the UK/international front pages, we're continuing to look into possible options to address the concerns that so many of you have expressed.
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