BBC NEWS | US Election 08 | Jon Kelly's Talking America

California dreaming

Jon Kelly
11 Sep 08, 04:37 AM GMT

Venice Beach couldn't be more Californian if it grew its hair long and took up yoga. Toss a joss stick along the seafront and you'd strike half-a-dozen tie-dyed T-shirts before it hit the sand.

Other parts of the country might scorn the locals as effete coastal wackos, a world away from the true American heartland.

Venice Beach But, still. A steady stream of bright-eyed incomers from across America have flocked west regardless for decades, lured by the prospect of fame and wealth.

At first it was the gold rush that brought them. Then it was Hollywood. Today, you wonder if every waitress or barman who serves you is a future rock star or matinee idol.

Just down the road from where I'm writing this, a young immigrant from Austria called Arnold Schwarzenegger used to pump iron in Gold's Gym. And look at him now.

As I gazed out at the shimmering Pacific for the first time in my life, the sun beating down on my face, I realised that I was looking at the American dream.

Nicholas Omama To find out why California exercises this pull and generates such resentment, I caught up with 53-year-old Nicholas Omana, who moved here from his native Salt Lake City ("not being a Mormon, I didn't really fit in there").

A voice-over artist by day and a stand-up comedian by night, he wasn't exactly difficult to identify as an adopted Californian by his floral shirt and easy, avuncular laugh.

I asked him what made things different here. It's because in the west, he told me, the frontier spirit lives on.

"People come out here to make it big, and I think that lends itself to taking risks and trying new things," he says.

"It seems to me that optimism and liberalism go together, and Californians are naturally optimistic."

I don't think this is the whole story, though. This is the state that gave us Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and - as I've already noted - Prop 13. Surely California's defiant individualism and buccaneering get-up-and-go have, historically, lent themselves as much to the right as much as the left?

My hunch was confirmed as I wandered down nearby Abbot Kinney, an upmarket, bohemian thoroughfare where Obama posters hung from porches and anti-Bush graffiti was etched in the cement.

Jordan Peagler I got talking to Jordan Peagler, a 21-year-old student in a flowing CND logo-print dress. I took it as read that she, like everyone else round here, must be a true-blue Democrat - if not a Green or a Yippie or some such.

But I was wrong. Jordan, who had moved here from Savannah, Georgia, liked the look of another new girl in town.

"I guess I'm undecided," she told me. "But I thought Sarah Palin made a great speech after her nomination. I like her manner.

"I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal.

"But some of my friends lost members of their family on 9/11. That will weigh heavily on the decision I make. I feel that leaving Iraq is much more complicated than certain politicians make it out to be."

It's an apposite point, today of all days, though not everyone in Venice would concur.

But that's the thing with California. Why should it have to agree with anyone else?

Comments

1. At 12:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, Jokers_Wild wrote:
I can't imagine looking at the photo what could have prompted you to strike up a conversation with Jordan Peagler ;)

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2. At 12:11pm on 11 Sep 2008, MartonR wrote:
I am losing all hope, here: Ms. Jordan Peagler is "a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal," and she lost family on 9/11, so we should stay in Iraq. And she is a student? Of what, I must ask. The state of education in the US is in worse shape than I even thought...

Here's why: The GOP has turned a budget surplus into a 8 TRILLION dollar deficit in 8 years. That is fiscal mania. They are not economic liberals by a long shot, they are beholden to the YOYO system of conservative governance (you are on your own). As for Iraq: Has she not yet gotten the message that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and we have squandered lives plus hundreds of billions in that poor country?

And she is voting for the same?

I am nonplussed, I'll say that.

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3. At 12:29pm on 11 Sep 2008, peejkerton wrote:
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4. At 12:37pm on 11 Sep 2008, Rayzer1978 wrote:
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5. At 12:40pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"How can you be fiscal conservative and economically liberal? Does she even know shes contradicting herself in the same sentence?"

I think she means she supports a government that is in favour of a free market and dropping trade tarifs and also cuts taxes and limits public spending. Its not the clearest sentence in the world but its meaning isn't too hard to work out.

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6. At 12:43pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"As for 9/11 and Iraq? She must solely rely on Fox News for her info..."

No. I think we all agree that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. However every Jihadi in the world is now travelling to Iraq to fight US soldiers on the streets of Baghdad rather than fly planes into buildings in the US. While there are 'infidels on arab land' the jihadis aren't worrying about attacking the US at home. Very hard on the Iraqi people of course.......

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7. At 12:46pm on 11 Sep 2008, nowhingers wrote:
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8. At 12:47pm on 11 Sep 2008, Fingerwaggler wrote:
Way to go, Jon ! You've discovered the other thing California is famous for - Airheads (in local vernacular). Whether they are born there or irresistably drawn there is not clear. But, there's a lot of them and they have the vote, but may confuse 'polling place' with 'pole dancing place'. We just have to hope....

Malaka57 you are slightly droll.

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9. At 12:52pm on 11 Sep 2008, senorsensor wrote:
I spent 2 years in L.A. and it's a place full of contradictions, Jordan included. The trouble is she got to talk because she's a pretty ( daft ) blond and the reporter found that appealing. Same reason you have actors reading the news instead of journalists. Obama has genuinely sent shockwaves through a despondent voting population but the Democrats never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I hate to say it but the republicans are experts in the popularity game.

Only word on the US popularity rule, told to me by a french immigrant...

It's not what you're saying, it's how loud you say it.

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10. At 12:54pm on 11 Sep 2008, redcompo wrote:
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11. At 12:55pm on 11 Sep 2008, andydavids wrote:
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12. At 12:59pm on 11 Sep 2008, hallas1980 wrote:
What is wrong with American society today is everyone whats the government to provide heath care, education, and a legislation that doesn't offend or hinder the actions of all peoples. We as a country think we are owed these "Rights" but we have seen with the former Soviet Union and other Marxist countries that the rich get richer, they take out the middle class permanently and the poor fight over the scraps in the trough. We must maintain our capitalist society and not hinder Nonprofits or NGO's.

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13. At 12:59pm on 11 Sep 2008, Sandrasoto wrote:
Oh, I get it. Here in the US we have a nightly show where the host goes out to interview the goofiest people (they edit out smart responses) and watch them make fools of themselves. I will enjoy your blog a lot, Jon. But I don't think some of your readers get it, they assume all 305,121,951
think the same way.

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14. At 1:01pm on 11 Sep 2008, senorsensor wrote:
p.s. Malaka57 "I am losing all hope, here" you're blind racism against Americans is just that. True there are unspeakably stupid (winningest) and disgraceful things that go in there but it boils down to the fact that they're the same make of human as you my pompous friend. They are on the forefront of western democracy and whether you like it or not we're following them.

The sooner we treat the US people with more respect than some tobacco chewing, chicken shooting hicks the sooner we can grow as a human race together. Some of the most visionary and ground-breaking scientists come from L.A. and they're all part of the same group.

Get off the nations pedestal of thinking we're perfect as a nation and go and read some history.

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15. At 1:09pm on 11 Sep 2008, yeahdisk wrote:
"Peter_Sym wrote.... I think she means she supports a government that is in favour of a free market and dropping trade tarifs and also cuts taxes and limits public spending"

Thats exactly how I understood it.

I wonder how many 21 year old British students in have any opinion AT ALL on economic strategy?

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16. At 1:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, jimmyjames2003 wrote:
Malaka57
"The GOP has turned a budget surplus into a 8 TRILLION dollar deficit in 8 years."

You should get your facts straight, if you are going to insult the intelligence of others.

The US National debt was 5.7 trillion dollars 8 years ago, the GOP has increased it to over 8 trillion now. The last 8 years by no means accounts for the entire debt.

Clinton ran a budget surplus decreasing our debt, but did not eliminate it.

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17. At 1:18pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
To All Americans. McCain is a Bush clone. Do you really want the same again? Sarah Palin hunts for sport, believes in perpetuating the war in Iraq, and believes all children should be taught creationism. I am amazed that she seems to think this recommends her for leadership of the biggest superpower there is. Also, she is a Fundamentalist - Christian or otherwise, she is still a fundamentalist and ANY fundamentalism blinds us to other people and is dangerous!

Obama has said that he is for change and can demonstrate that he has policies that would do this.

Is it not time we all had a change? Please don't vote in the Republicans again. And as for Jordan Peagler, I won't go on about fiscal conservatism and economic liberalism, any more, but doesn't she just demonstrate exactly the kind of unthinking voting that got us all stuck with the Republicans in the first place?

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18. At 1:26pm on 11 Sep 2008, scappers wrote:
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19. At 1:27pm on 11 Sep 2008, dontmakeawave wrote:
I beg to differ on the negative comments regarding Sarah Peagler's comment on being a Fiscal Conservative and Economic liberal.

Fiscal policy is control of money and spending. She's saying, I infer, that she likes to see controlled money supply, balanced budgets and government spending under control - i.e. conservative. Economic Liberalism is free trade, lack of red tape etc.

The fact Mr Bush has let rip with a huge deficit would imply she'll vote for whoever brings the deficit under control.

Sarah's got my vote and she is definitely beautiful and not a dumb blonde.

America's education is in save hands with her!

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20. At 1:31pm on 11 Sep 2008, phil29 wrote:

Jon,

I read your two latest back to back.
I think instead of commenting on the
individuals interviewed,we should be interested in your reaction to them.(though I too understand why you might interview Jordan).

Just don't let the CA color your thaoughts as you continue your travels

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21. At 1:32pm on 11 Sep 2008, MartonR wrote:
senor, racism against americans? We Americans are not a race, and secondly, I am American myself. We are allowed to criticize as much as we want, especially when it is justified. That is part of the Bill of Rights.

Cheers.

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22. At 1:34pm on 11 Sep 2008, t_RAV wrote:
On a day such as today, it's good to reflect on the issues surrounding the 'War on Terror' since 9/11. Especially how in pertains to the U.S. elections, and the world for that matter. Unfortunately, I think the the comment linking 9/11 to Saddam does give a bit of an indication as to how some regular people out there in America (and elsewhere) still feel on the subject. It's no different here in Canada, I find. I'd like to think everyone follows these issues and are well informed, but that's not always the case. I still talk to friends who worry about terrorism and how things are going with the Iraq War (even though we in Canada are not there militarily). Though they are concerned about these subjects, none of them can give me concrete reasons or background information as to the problems surrounding these issues. So how can they be worried about topics and problems that they are not very informed on. And that's the problem.

The larger population in general base their ideas on a few sound bits heard here or there, or on differing friends opinions, but do not go out and try to seek the truth themselves. That's what they will base their vote on. I'm not going to get into more on the terrorism issue here. There's simply not enough space. But I think a lot of voters in Western nations need to really look at how we've dealt with Terrorism since 9/11 and with the coming elections (both in the U.S. and here in Canada) we should be pressing our leaders on the issue because oil and our economics are all intertwined with this. When I look at how things have gone since the attacks, I feel that our polices have set us back 10 years on the issue of terrorism. Government's tried to deal with it using old methods that are no longer applicable. Back when I was a Political Science student, in our policy classes, we had proposed the development of conferences between countries to develop a consensus legal frame work on how to process terror suspects through our court systems, allowing due process. That was in 2000. The fact that 8 years later there's still not an effective and democratically acceptable way of placing terror suspects on trial in our own court systems I think speaks for itself.

We can trumpet the values and benefits of democracy, but if we cannot process these people through our own system, what does that tell our enemies? And what kind of ammunition does that give them to promote and recruit others their extremist ideals?

Make no mistake about it people. Currently the 'War on Terror' is not being won. Not even close.

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23. At 1:35pm on 11 Sep 2008, dusablon wrote:
'Venice Beach couldn't be more Californian if it grew its hair long and took up yoga.'

Stereotypes save time.

I thought the premise of the bus tour was to find the 'real America' but our intrepid correspondent ends up in Venice Beach and tells us it's representative of California. Wrong. It's only representative of Venice Beach, a freak show and tourist trap.

I'm sure Europeans eat this nonsense up but, as someone who's lived in LA for 28 years, you need to know you're being misled.

Now, on to yet another freak show and tourist trap: Las Vegas...

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24. At 1:38pm on 11 Sep 2008, aboutbrooklyn wrote:
"Peter_Sym wrote.... I think she means she supports a government that is in favour of a free market and dropping trade tarifs and also cuts taxes and limits public spending"

This view can absolutely make sense--in Europe. The trouble is that in the US, the term "liberal" is actually synonymous with "to the left," not that we have many leftists here at all. "Liberal" in the United States does take on its technical meaning still used in Europe, among other places, i.e. supporting free market, dropping tarrifs, etc.

So, in short, the view in contradictory based on the way that Americans use those terms.

However, I thought that the part about liking Palin's look was telling. As an American, I can say that it is indeed entirely a popularity contest out here. Candidates on both sides are more keen to run cover stories on tabloids than to discuss real issues--a phenomenon which the public makes necessary. John Kerry's attempts at discussing issues in a coherent way in the last election won him charges from the right that he was an intellectual elite who thinks that he is better than "you, the American voter." Here, likability, being flawed, speaking English poorly, shooting moose, going to church, and not being "a commie," are unfortunately are still what is truly important.

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25. At 1:41pm on 11 Sep 2008, MartonR wrote:
Peterr_Sym

You are suggesting that to invade some country killing about 100,000 of their people (some say up to 1 million), at the cost of nearly 4,200 of our soldiers as well is justified? Do you think that is the reason why we have not had a repeat of 9/11.

Here is another reason. Al Qaeda did not need another 9/11 to unravel our democracy, George Bush did it for him with the dismantling of Habeas Corpus, the FISA bill (shame on Obama for going along with it), Gitmo, and a war that is costing us money and reputation.

With a president like George W. Bush, who needs an enemy?

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26. At 1:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, thetroubleis wrote:
The UK does not have agreat track record, it's overcrowded, headnig to a recession and while all this is happening we have a government that couldn't manage a market stall.

However, i think America neesd to wake up and realised its global responsibilities because lets face it, the next president you elect isn't just important to you, they are at the forefront of western democracy. The most powerful country in the world cannot have a war mongering leader with the international policies of a Viking.

Please, please , please don't vote a Republican in to the White House again. It is a time for change, 911 was a tragedy but the War in Iraq has been the biggest mistake of the 21st Century.

I have nothing against Jordan but she was picked for the wrong reasons and it shows just how little the reporter actually cared about a serious subject.

Seriously if you were a reporter and you heard an opinion that openly contradicted itself, surely you would look for another.

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27. At 1:51pm on 11 Sep 2008, tiptoplisamich wrote:
Jon,
I'm truly enjoying your journey as you meet and talk with Americans. Your open mind is obvious---and refreshing(!) given what I've come to expect from foreign journalists.
I remember my first view of the Pacific Ocean, a moment which taught me my own insignificance in a breathtaking way.

On the issue of fiscal conservatism, I don't think the issue can be owned by either political party. Most Americans want their government to collect the tax money and use it responsibly (something that is not happening now with Congress and the President sharing equal blame).

To which programs and projects the tax money is spent is more of a divisive issue; however, I think we can agree that we want our money spent where it's needed most, and that doesn't include politician's personal pockets. Liberals and conservatives don't often argue about that.

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28. At 1:52pm on 11 Sep 2008, masibike wrote:
Amazing.she likes how Sarah Palin "looks". How about what she says,or what she stands for,or what she'll do for the 40 million US citizens with no health coverage, or the constant outflow of jobs to other countries,or the fact that the US economy is tanking faster than the Titanic,or that she wants to open up offshore drilling or in the Alaska Wildlife Preserve. Or how about the disaster of the Iraq war, or the war against Iran if McCain wins. Palin's looks?? How about voting for a candidate/party that will stop the US from self destruction.

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29. At 1:54pm on 11 Sep 2008, vanessa wrote:
I am English but live here in California. I have done for best part of thirty years. I thought it was great that the BBC was interested in the election and the whole bus-trip idae sounded grand but please...Jordan Peagler a fiscal conservative and and economical liberal? what! The young man choosing people to talk to might choose someone other than a girl he wants to pick up. It's pathetic that the BBC can't hire someone that has a clue about this place to conduct this bus trip/interview forum....

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30. At 1:56pm on 11 Sep 2008, coresme2 wrote:
Whilst I do think its impressive that she has an opinion as a young adult (and why shouldn't she? Unlike British youngsters Americans tend to get involved in the political process) her reasoning of why America is in Iraq (9/11) is woefully misinformed. I don't lay the blame for this at her door, moreso towards innacurate and partisan journalism. However I do think its ethically bankrupt for the Republicans to be portrayed by anyone as the "9/11 security" party. 9/11 was the best thing to happen to the Republicans and to Bush because it created a blanket justfication for nearly any action. America will follow a strong leader, but that strength of feeling must be based on wisdom and not impulsiveness.

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31. At 2:12pm on 11 Sep 2008, murkybeangloop wrote:
I haven't lived in California for over 25 years but I was born there and spent much of my childhood there. When I was teaching English in Japan, an Australian English teacher made a comment in front of me, which implied that California's universities are nothing but havens for pot smokers. I didn't take the bait at the time, because if I had responded to every slight about the United States from the non American English teachers, I would have spent my whole time arguing, but I feel the need to speak up for my home state a bit now. Whereas it's true that some Californians fit the stereotype of free-wheeling, pot-smoking flakes ( I truly miss them, I have to say), California's universities are fantastic. There are 6 listed in the QS Top Universities list (http://www.topuniversities.com/) and one in the top 10. Also, I don't know what it's like now, but when I was going to college in the early 80's, it was possible to get a quality education, very cheaply, in any of the multitude of community colleges that were scattered throughout the state. I'm pointing this out, because it's so easy to focus on one aspect of a place and forget about what else it has to offer.

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32. At 2:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, Errol_Flynn wrote:
"Sarah's got my vote and she is definitely beautiful and not a dumb blonde.

America's education is in save hands with her!"

Ah, a case of 'Bad spellers of the world untie, you have nothing to lose except your dictionaries'.

Aren't issues rather something to vote for rather than hair colour?

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33. At 2:22pm on 11 Sep 2008, praguestepchild wrote:
Ah yes, let the America bashing begin.

I lived in L.A. for three years. I've never been to England but I've lived in Europe for 12 years, mostly in Prague where I've had the chance to see plenty of British youth, most of it drunk and belligerent. I'd rather hang with a Californian, dude.

As for economic liberalism, that is a concept going back to John Stuart Mill. It means a belief in free markets and free trade, the 'invisible hand'. A fiscal conservative believes in conservative fiscal spending by the government. The two concepts aren't antithetical.

I wonder who is really showing their ignorance, the spunky L.A. girl or the bitter British commenters?

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34. At 2:22pm on 11 Sep 2008, chris wrote:
I'm disgusted that the author of this piece is being paid by the BBC for such lazy, trivial journalism.

The sad fact is that the UK voted 3 times for Blair, so we are in no position to criticise the Americans.

Politics is a very dirty business worldwide.

Republicans are very good at avoiding the real issues.

As they say, if you're having to explain, then you're losing.

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35. At 2:29pm on 11 Sep 2008, roccogman wrote:
I actually know Jordan - I left her in Cali 24 hours ago to return to London - the last thing this girl is is ignorant - she'd give the majority of people a run for their money, believe me.

I think what's happened here - although it shouldn't really be the focus of this topic - is that Jordan's opinion has been edited and is being taken out of context. I haven't spoken to her - but I can pretty much guess that her "contradiction" is actually more of a misunderstanding - try "at times I'm a fiscal conservative and at others an economic liberal" - swinging between the two - and this starts to make more sense - its amazing how quickly one quote / opinion can create a stereotype, no?

This should reduce the need for 'stupid blonde' comments and other such assumptions.

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36. At 2:31pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#25. I think the invasion of Iraq was rather stupid actually but my best mate at work is iraqi and can tell you stories about Saddam that would turn your hair white. HE supports the invasion and I give an Iraqi's opinion far greater value than a european or americans.

You also make the mistake of blaming all 100,000 casualties (some say the world is flat so I'm not justifying the 1M claim with a response) on the americans. When Al Qu'eda suicide bomb a market and kill 100 then 100 deaths are the responsibility of Al Qu'eda, not the US.

Also Bush goes in November. If we hadn't gone into Iraq Saddam would have gone when he died, then his sons would have taken over. Don't forget that.

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37. At 2:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, JosephFromNantymoel wrote:
Dude, thats like so Cal........

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38. At 2:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
"Republicans are very good at avoiding the real issues."

You must have forgotten the day Clinton fired cruise missiles at Sudan and Afghanistan in order to bump Lewinski to 2nd spot on the news. If you think the democrats are any different to Republicans you're living in a fantasy world

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39. At 2:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
aboutbrooklyn wrote - 'John Kerry's attempts at discussing issues in a coherent way in the last election won him charges from the right that he was an intellectual elite who thinks that he is better than "you, the American voter." Here, likability, being flawed, speaking English poorly, shooting moose, going to church, and not being "a commie," are unfortunately still what is truly important.'

If this is really, really the case? Then are we not all doomed?

Is the Republican publicity machine (say it loud and say it long) really going to win out?

Look beyond the facades, the lipstick (I dare say it), and the petty one upmanship and put your vote with the Democrats. As I said before, I think we are all ready for change. We have earned it.

Come on Americans, think this one through. Remember the last election, grab all that is near and dear to you and run from the Republicans, run like the wind!

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40. At 2:39pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
its also worth highlighting that she said 'some of my friends lost family on 9/11' not that she did. Neither did she actually link 9/11 directly with Iraq.

Too many people here can't read or choose to interpret things very strangely indeed.

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41. At 2:51pm on 11 Sep 2008, RW93003 wrote:
She obviously meant "fiscal conservative and social liberal."

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42. At 2:56pm on 11 Sep 2008, kremlinko wrote:
Actually you can be a fiscal conservative (low taxes) and an economic liberal if you support free trade, no unfair subsidies etc. You may believe that'll make you/ Uncle Sam more money. I might but domestic politics stops the Americans from being economically liberal. Maybe the blonde ain't so dumb after all.

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43. At 2:56pm on 11 Sep 2008, jackusa wrote:
This comment is to Scappers, comment #18. I am sick of how the Euro-press seek out the stereotypical "dumb" American to represent my country in order to make you feel better about becoming increasingly irrelevant on the world stage. If we are all dumb, just how did we become the #1 economic and military power in the world? I will debate you anytime and place on any subject and show you how "dumb" I am. Stop your stereotypes, it is getting old. Now go and get drunk, riot at a football game, and, for God's sake, see a dentist. I can stereotype too.

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44. At 2:58pm on 11 Sep 2008, CBeninWI wrote:
So...when can I move to the UK? It was my impression that the United States was waking up, but I seem to be proved wrong on this point with frightening frequency.

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45. At 3:00pm on 11 Sep 2008, eladler wrote:
What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq?

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46. At 3:01pm on 11 Sep 2008, avianterminus wrote:
Although Dusablon already commented on it, I feel it somewhat necessary to defend California against... California.

Being from Northern California, I'd argue to death the fact that Venice Beach is the measure of California and our respective culture. I grew up with sleds, snowboards and wakeboards, not surfboards. I grew up in a small foothilll town, not a sprawling coastal behemoth like LA. Is my hometown, which is strangely like countless other smaller Northern Cal towns, any less a part of California culture?

I live now in Central Cal, right near the Salinas Valley. Being a major agricultural center, the absolute focus of the area is significantly different than Venice beach. Agriculture and the people that make it work are a huge part of this area, and a huge part of California too, regardless of what the idyllic stereotypes of California being one giant beach covered in hippies and liberal movie stars would have you believe.

I've been to the UK before, but as it was on the very back end of backpacking across Europe and I had to get back to the States, I wasn't able to stay as long as I'd have liked, nor seen as much as I'd liked. Regardless, if I'd had my own blog and said something along the lines of "London is as Enlish as England gets.", how would people in Manchester take it? How would people in Gloucester like it?

You do not only us, but the credibility of what you write a disservice when you attempt to generalize 35 million people in a state as diverse as any in the US into one section of a small and goofy beach in Los Angeles. I mean hell, if you were going to judge us all on one scale, might as well have hit the Castro in SF. I'd love to see how that reaction went over (for good or bad, I think it'd be awesome).

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47. At 3:02pm on 11 Sep 2008, RPMalone wrote:
Oh for goodness sake Kelly, edit the responses to your blog! Or we'll all end up posting the same unoriginal responses,

i.e. 'How can she be fiscally conservative and economically liberal blah blah blah..' which kind of goes without saying.

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48. At 3:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, avianterminus wrote:
**Comment edited to remove a bad word and resubmitted. :/**

Although Dusablon already commented on it, I feel it somewhat necessary to defend California against... California.

Being from Northern California, I'd argue to death the fact that Venice Beach is the measure of California and our respective culture. I grew up with sleds, snowboards and wakeboards, not surfboards. I grew up in a small foothilll town, not a sprawling coastal behemoth like LA. Is my hometown, which is strangely like countless other smaller Northern Cal towns, any less a part of California culture?

I live now in Central Cal, right near the Salinas Valley. Being a major agricultural center, the absolute focus of the area is significantly different than Venice beach. Agriculture and the people that make it work are a huge part of this area, and a huge part of California too, regardless of what the idyllic stereotypes of California being one giant beach covered in hippies and liberal movie stars would have you believe.

I've been to the UK before, but as it was on the very back end of backpacking across Europe and I had to get back to the States, I wasn't able to stay as long as I'd have liked, nor seen as much as I'd liked. Regardless, if I'd had my own blog and said something along the lines of "London is as English as England gets.", how would people in Manchester take it? How would people in Gloucester like it? How would people in London itself like it if I took only one subculture and said it was indicative of everybody in the city?

You do not only us, but the credibility of what you write a disservice when you attempt to generalize 35 million people in a state as diverse as any in the US into one section of a small and goofy beach in Los Angeles. If you were going to judge us all on one scale, might as well have hit the Castro in SF. I'd love to see how that reaction went over (for good or bad, I think it'd be awesome).

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49. At 3:06pm on 11 Sep 2008, dzustin wrote:
@ #19:
"America's education is in save hands with her!"

-please note the irony in this exclamation.

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50. At 3:13pm on 11 Sep 2008, MavTheInspector wrote:
I see alot of people here are commenting on things that they only think they know about. When you use the word "conservitive" here in the US you are not always talking about a Republican. The republican party has long been full of RINO's that are really "American Liberals" which means they are for more taxation and less freedom. The more you listen to what Barrock Obomma has to say about his socalled "changes" he wants to make the more you reallise that socialism is what he is really peddling. Now don't think that I like Mccain that much either. His policies will just end up being a baby step towards socialism. Now I can't believe that I here so much about religian being such a bad thing. Just because you believe in God, Guns, And Guts to back it up is not a bad thing in my book! That is what the USA was founded on (and in that order). Now onto Iraq: You people seem to think we are there because of 9/11. Far from the truth that is. We ended up doing something about Saddam because the UN would'nt back up the resolutions that they passed. And once again the US, UK, and some others had to step up again to do what the UN should have done to begin with! I guess thats the kind of UN you get when you let dictators in to run the place. Sara Palin would also be the best thing that could happen to the US because she gets done what the people really need done.

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51. At 3:14pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
45. At 3:00pm on 11 Sep 2008, eladler wrote:
What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq?

The same people who masterminded 9/11 are behind the suicide bombings in Iraq. Iraq is the current battlefield for USA v Islamo-fascism.

Nowhere in the girl's statement does she say anything like 'I lost family on 9/11 so I'm glad we bought Saddam to justice' etc.

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52. At 3:26pm on 11 Sep 2008, Don Camillo wrote:
I find it sad that a person who thinks fiscal and economic have identical meanings can consider someone else a dumb blond.

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53. At 3:28pm on 11 Sep 2008, tiptoplisamich wrote:
I agree with #38 Peter_Sym.

When it comes to manipulating the American people through use of the media, all party affiliations blend into one category: politicians!

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54. At 3:35pm on 11 Sep 2008, MartonR wrote:
Finally,

we New Yorkers with our sarcasm, our great cultural scene, our phenomenal institutions of higher learning and our crazy streets are "real American" as anyone else. Today we are not celebrating a tragedy, but the day our city took it, swallowed hard, and got on with life without loosing its legendary tolerance for foreign cultures and religions.

That's American!

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55. At 3:39pm on 11 Sep 2008, mountainecho wrote:
Economic liberal: I support progressive taxation, social programs, and government regulation of the excesses of capitalism.

Fiscal conservative: I don't believe in running deficits or printing money in order to do the above.

Now that wasn't too complicated, was it boys?

Note for the future how arrogance and condescension have a more deleterious effect on intelligence than blonde hair and vajayjays.

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56. At 3:40pm on 11 Sep 2008, magicSkates wrote:
Hey everyone, lay off Jordan. It could just be poor editing that made this student of liberal conservatism appear stupid.

Perhaps she actually said that she was liberal with the way she shared her somewhat economic, nevertheless insightful, conservative fiscal views, and that her words were mixed up in editing.

Then again, perhaps not....

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57. At 3:44pm on 11 Sep 2008, MoralSentiment wrote:
To Jordan (if you ever read this) and your friends:

As a UK citizen, I'd like to apologise for the comments on this blog from people who - because they didn't understand or agree with your point of view - made a series of remarks about you that are discourteous and unforgivable.

To said commenters: shame on you. Our society is going nowhere fast if we can't rediscover how to discuss issues without trying to put down those we don't agree with.

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58. At 3:45pm on 11 Sep 2008, misoramen wrote:
America has demonstrated the problem with democracy - dumb and uneducated people have the same vote as everyone else.

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59. At 3:52pm on 11 Sep 2008, wherearethemarbles wrote:
#51

Before the invasion of Iraq, what did 9/11 have to do with Iraq?

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60. At 3:53pm on 11 Sep 2008, lien_cam wrote:
To quote the excellent Harry Lockhart from 'Kiss Kiss Bang Bang'....

"it's literally like someone took America by the East Coast and *shook* it, and all the normal girls managed to hang on."

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61. At 3:58pm on 11 Sep 2008, EricJapanUSA wrote:
"As I gazed out at the shimmering Pacific for the first time in my life, the sun beating down on my face, I realised that I was looking at the American dream."

Close, but you don't quite get it.

That feeling you had was uniquely Californian. It has nothing to do with fame and fortune. Looking out over the beach in California is inspirational and it creates an overwhelmingly positive feeling. It's something you won't soon forget and it's something you'll want to experience again in your life.

My guess is you already had the impression that Los Angeles was all about fame and fortune and you were looking to confirm that. But you don't go to Venice Beach to find examples of it. And you don't pick an Iraq War supporter from Georgia as an example of the people there.

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62. At 4:01pm on 11 Sep 2008, pdlodge wrote:
I find it funny that Europeans always say how dumb Americans are and try to tell them how to vote, yet they're the superpower and we aint.

How about that?

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63. At 4:03pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
If Education is safe (save?) with Sarah Palin, I just hope to God she can spell ........ If the standard of spelling in the comments on this blog are representative, it would appear to be a good learning objective. Sad to say, but my opinion that successful US presidents have all at one time or another worked to garner votes from the unwashed masses has not yet been vanquished.

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64. At 4:03pm on 11 Sep 2008, uperjer wrote:
use a dictionary/thesaurus, people....

"I'm a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal."

WHAT?

fiscal: adjective
figures for the past fiscal year show a trend of improvement budgetary; financial, economic, monetary, money. See note at financial .

economic: adjective
1 economic reform financial, monetary, budgetary, fiscal; commercial.
2 an economic alternative to carpeting cheap, inexpensive, low-cost, economical, cut-rate, discount, bargain. antonym expensive.

it's not rocket science...

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65. At 4:09pm on 11 Sep 2008, eastbayca wrote:
'with a CND logo-print dress'!! A big difference in the US is that logo is not political so if it made you think she had a strong political view on anything you were sadly mistaken.

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66. At 4:10pm on 11 Sep 2008, Mac1956 wrote:
I trust that readers world-wide will accept this story line for what it is; journalism-lite. Your correspondent is off to a bad start with Venice, CA. Doesn’t everybody already know about our American clichés? The photographs he posted indicate he is in Santa Barbara. Before he stumbles into my town (San Francisco) someone should tell him that he’ll find Las Vegas if he takes the eastbound 101. When he is back on track he might want to stop in Riverside county and report on the thousands of vacant (foreclosed) houses and the true state of our union thanks to 8 years of President Shrub, soon to be 12 with the advent of President McBush.

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67. At 4:12pm on 11 Sep 2008, OIFVetForMcCain wrote:
Good for Ms. Peagler. She appears to be consistant in her conservative views with most American women; certainly those of her home city of Savannah. However, now that we know Obama has a Freudian problem with women that probably goes back to his questionable childhood, wherever that was; now might be a good time to note the merits of Ms. Palin who appears to stand up well against any of the Democrats in this election.
==McCAIN*PALIN 08==

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68. At 4:18pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
re no 62

?

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69. At 4:19pm on 11 Sep 2008, Jokers_Wild wrote:
I don't care what her political views are she is hot and I am therefore fully prepared to listen to them at great length and pretend to agree with them in order to get her our for a coffee, which is what I am assuming Jon was doing?

Though looking at Jon's photo I don't think even the "cute British accent" thing is going to do it for you this time mate.

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70. At 4:20pm on 11 Sep 2008, idahobeauty wrote:
And so it begins - the put down of America. Why did we think we could hope for better than this from you? You would have used different terms but her statement makes sense to us because we name things differently than you do. You think Jordon was talking in circles so let me explain. She is a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal. That means while she is willing to jump into funding more programs (liberal), she expects the government to balance the check book (conservative). Provide less or make sure you have the money to provide more. It is that simple. So UK/ EU get off your high horse. If your just involved in this blog to put us down, please move on and leave the space to those who really want to contribute something intelligent.

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71. At 4:25pm on 11 Sep 2008, TiredOfIgnorance1775 wrote:
You can't? Better to talk with an attractive idiot than an unattractive one, don't you think?

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72. At 4:31pm on 11 Sep 2008, idahobeauty wrote:
You don't seem to understand how we go into IRaq. So let me explain. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. We know that so get over it. HOWEVER, after 9-11 we realized that the extremists would go to great lengths to kill as many innocent people has possible. Iraq had claimed to have WMDs. At the end of the first gulf war, the cease fire was made requiring Sadaam to meet certain benchmarks and curtail certain behavior in return for him being allowed to remain in power. If he failed to meet the requirements, he would be removed. He signed this agreement. He didn't meet ANY of them. After 9-11, the USA/UK were determined to inspect these WMDs to our satisfaction. We wanted to establish if he had them and if he did - where they currently were. We were worried they would fall into the hands of terrorists. In short, he had to comply with cease fire agreement or be removed. He refused, he was removed - THE END. I have explained this to my family in England many times. They were surprised about the terms of the cease fire with the exception of the military men. It seems you are not as informed and perfect as you think you are.

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73. At 4:41pm on 11 Sep 2008, davidwoolf wrote:
has anyone checked.. this girl is a professional model/actress..

http://jordanpeagler1.exploretalent.com/model_page.php?talentnum=1088076

is there something we should be told?

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74. At 4:41pm on 11 Sep 2008, Livehappy8 wrote:
Wow...as an American and a blond, I have to say I'm so embarrased and ashamed.

Really? Why choose her? It makes this story read as if it was written by a high school student. Could you not wait around for 10 more minutes and find someone who didn't like Palin simply because of her STYLE?
Sure, of course she meant fiscally conservative and socially liberal...but she is a freaking idiot, so yeah, she screwed it up because she has no idea of politics or any handle on the English language.

Also, not to be a bear, but the writer forgot to put and end quote of that sentence that could have possibly come out of Bush's mouth.

Please, pathetically poor choice of interviewee, poorly written article. You fail.

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75. At 4:45pm on 11 Sep 2008, arkid77 wrote:
Mr Kelly, please keep up the good work. I guess its not hard to find Jordan Peagler's but its certainly makes for good entertainment and a lively discussion forum! Hoping you can find some some more locals to share their wisdom...

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76. At 4:47pm on 11 Sep 2008, rainlawrence wrote:
well done jon,you are really enlightening us about what makes america tick,like i say,a farce of massive proportions,an undereducated middle class bbc employee travelling around,cocooned in a 750 thousand pound luxury coach telling it as it really is,beyond ALL COMPREHENSION!!!

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77. At 4:50pm on 11 Sep 2008, MrSANMARTIN wrote:
#50

In the holy words of Virgin Mary, come again ?

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78. At 4:56pm on 11 Sep 2008, MilkyWayBox wrote:
I am not quite sure I understand, she says:

"But some of my friends lost members of their family on 9/11. That will weigh heavily on the decision I make, and I think that pulling all the troops out of Iraq at this time isn't the way to go right now."

why is she saying this?
The war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism.
Terrorists responsible for 9/11 are believed to be in Afghanistan, not Iraq.
Actually, forces utilized for the nonsense war in Iraq could have been used to fight terrorism instead !
So I don't understand. People have opinions based on what?

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79. At 5:00pm on 11 Sep 2008, KateKate765 wrote:
As a Los Angeles native I am exceedingly embarrassed by Ms. Peagler's statements. Clearly they make no sense and she sounds like an idiot (and, it should be noted, she is not actually from Los Angeles). I promise - not all people from L.A. are like this! A great deal of us happen to be highly educated and well informed on national and international issues. Thank you for reading.

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80. At 5:02pm on 11 Sep 2008, MrSANMARTIN wrote:
Here I am for a stereotype ... I am Mexican with a ton of family in California, LA mainly. Fruit of my granddad's 2nd marriage with a German lady. The result ... very blode, very tall Californians who speak only English or, Citizens of the United States of America.

Just assume that I grew up in Cali too, OK ?

I do believe that the average a citizen of the world's so much claimed #1 economy and lets not forget military, should be smarter or brighter than actually is. Fact is that most settle with high school diplomas and 50 KUSD/year dead-end jobs. Education is a big problem in the US, and here we have Jordan proving it. You will find Jordan in each town and state in the US so please stop trying to find sense in her words, there is non, just as there is no sense in Palin's words either.

It is true that Palin's nomination was a big popularity seeking move by the GOP.

As to those of you questioning why Jon approached Jordan, well if you are males I don't think you need an explanation ... I can make jokes too in this forum, right ??

A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election.
- Bill Vaughan

PIECE, oh no wait ... PEACE !

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81. At 5:02pm on 11 Sep 2008, BlahBlahBlogger wrote:
It's hard to believe that, McCain is even close at this point. He puts Palin on the ticket ,and people go nuts. It is truly sad people know nothing about her and they believe she can be second in commad. How scary is this, Plus the GOP is keeping her away from the media hmmmm. Please dont ask Sarah a question of any meaning, will keep slamming Obama with bullshit stuff, it will make us look good.

PS...Jordan is on crack

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82. At 5:03pm on 11 Sep 2008, peejkerton wrote:
I want to know why all the people leaping to the defense of this girl who obviously doesn't know what she is talking about, can't seem to agree on the definition of what she said.

Fiscal means involving financial matters.
In this way she is a conservative.

Economy is the distribution and consumption of wealth.

They are antithetical. You can't be finally conservative whilst liberally distributing and consuming. It is not possible.

She's tried to look intelligent and come off looking stupid. Shes linked 9/11 to Iraq, which is VERY Dick Cheney of her. I'm afraid there is no defending a woman who is wearing a CND dress, but out of her mouth a juxtaposed opinion forms.

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83. At 5:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, local30 wrote:
In America we only get one vote. This one vote every 4 years is a poor excuse to run around being opininated boors.
People want to discredit Jordan Peagler as if she is running for office.
Jordan is Beautiful, young and warm. She lives in a very cool city. I think the world is greatly improved by an abundance of such lovely people.
Beautiful and young has already passed most of us by. Warm and rich may still be an option for the rest of us, so stay cheerful, take control of your life and GO GET EM' . Judging Jordan harshly will likely just continue your own personal losing streaks.

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84. At 5:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, Al Kennedy wrote:
#76

rainlawrence, did Jon shoot your dog or something? Do try to have a bit of perspective, you'll give yourself a heart attack otherwise.

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85. At 5:05pm on 11 Sep 2008, peejkerton wrote:
#50
Just because you believe in God, Guns, And Guts to back it up is not a bad thing in my book! That is what the USA was founded on.

I don't disagree that it is a bad thing persay, its just the anti homosexuality, anti abortion, pro book burning censorial extremism that occurs that worrres me.

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86. At 5:05pm on 11 Sep 2008, dontmakeawave wrote:
According to Wikipedia, Jordan is correct, I quote:

Fiscal conservatism (also known as economic conservatism) is a political phrase term used in North America to describe advocacy of lower governmental spending practices and a lower federal debt;

Theories in support of economic liberalism were developed in the Enlightenment, and believed to be first fully formulated by Adam Smith which advocates minimal interference by government in the economy, though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of a few basic public goods.

Her comments were very lucid for someone just interviewed on the sidewalk.

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87. At 5:14pm on 11 Sep 2008, jkmattson wrote:
I believe she either said or meant to say (not that I would ever doubt the accuracy of the quote as reported ;-) Socially conservative and Fiscally liberal or vice versa.....so she's either a penny-pinching anarchist tramp or a free-spending, pork-barreling prude....at least we know where she stands on the issues.

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88. At 5:14pm on 11 Sep 2008, PhiladelphiaMom wrote:
"I like her style and manner"...

Of course. Southern California is all about Style and Manner. That's why Arnold works well as their GOP Governor... and perhaps why Palin was such a delightfully strategic pick.

While you're in Venice, be sure to check out the Roller Disco folks down by Gold's Gym. They're quite good.

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89. At 5:20pm on 11 Sep 2008, thephatboi wrote:
I find it MIND BOGGLING that after America has been raped by Geoge Bush and Dick Cheney, that any number of people at all would be able to get themselves into a state of denial so deep that they could even consider voting for John McCain. He not a bad guy but he has proven after 30 years in Washington that he represents the status quo--things exactly as they are and I don't know if your state of denial is so great that you have not noticed that the US is in a very bad place right now. If you think otherwise you are blind. If McCain wins I am leaving this country. I can't believe the ignorance that prevails here at times.

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90. At 5:21pm on 11 Sep 2008, superdutchy wrote:
A fine example of why Europeans find America so laughable.

9/11 Ceremony in NY. Can someone tell me where I can find in the USA a ceremony remembering the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in Iraq?

If you do find one, is it on any News Channels ? I wonder?

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91. At 5:21pm on 11 Sep 2008, bubblingMax_Power wrote:
I luv teh economy itz lyk so kewl and junk

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92. At 5:23pm on 11 Sep 2008, notnert wrote:
MilkyWayBox....

I think she said that because she is "undecided". She needs some more time in Venice, California and perhaps some San Francisco/Berkeley therapy time to draw the conclusion that the past 8 years the US has been a disaster for the rest of the world.

Please send more of these types to California so they can be convereted, and the conservative right in the US defeated once and for all!

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93. At 5:28pm on 11 Sep 2008, alexfantastic81 wrote:
I guess the irony is lost on that moronic blonde. You can't wear a dress with a gigantic peace symbol and be for the war in Iraq! Peace means peace under all circumstances regardless of friends family members that died in 9-11. Maybe she just likes the idea of peace. Every race and society has its bad apples and we would be hypocrites to proclaim our inoscence. The foreign policies of the US lead to 9-ll. Its a CIA term called blowback.

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94. At 5:38pm on 11 Sep 2008, MrSANMARTIN wrote:
true story, around the Bush's second election I was for business in Columbus, OH and while hitting on the beatiful bar tender ( BBT ), my French colleague had to unfortunatelly bring politics up ... ( we were almost there Flo !! ). Anyway :

Flo : Are you voting Bush again ?
BBT : Of course I am.
SanMartin : What ?! Why ?!
BBT : Because I think he will keep our country safe from further atacks, I like feeling safe.
Flo : Safe in what way ?
BBT : Like when I travel on planes and such.
SanMartin : Do you travel a lot ?
BBT : Not really. But I want to be safe when I do so.
Flo : Have you been on long flights ?
BBT : No.
SanMartin : Have you been abroad ? Mexico or France maybe ?
BBT : No I have never been away from Columbus.

After a couple of minutes of LOLing, we went back to our hotel rooms ....... alone.

One week later Diamond Darrel ( Pantera's guitar player ), was shot down to dead at a show in Columbus ...

So much for safety huh .... The thing is that my BBT is pretty much Jordan but in OH. Voting, if so, for the least important reasons, like style.

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95. At 5:40pm on 11 Sep 2008, Joan Olivares wrote:
You should have interviewed Arthur. The former Bank of England whiz who dropped out and ended up reading Tarot cards on Venice Beach . You missed all of the oldies but goodies, Venice characters. They aren't that hard to find.

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96. At 5:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, threshold7 wrote:
See, if only John McCain's team had known about Jordan Peagler, they could have picked a running mate based on shrewd political insight and vision, rather than a crude appeal to that portion of the moronic electorate whose buttons McCain does not push.

Incidentally, why is nobody asking Jon Kelly why he chose to interview Nicholas Omana? I think he has a thing for burly men in grey t-shirts.

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97. At 5:50pm on 11 Sep 2008, RightWingUSA wrote:
Well God bless Jordan. Her parents obviously raised her well. it's great to be pleasantly surprised by so fetching a young lady.

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98. At 5:58pm on 11 Sep 2008, Pancho66 wrote:
I'd like to make a point about Malaka57's post (number 2).

He/she claims that "The GOP has turned a budget surplus into a 8 TRILLION dollar deficit in 8 years. " Now, I have no sympathies for the republican administration of the last 8 years, but we should never be misleading. Malaka is using "deficit" and "national debt" interchangeably, and they are very different concepts.

8 years ago, the national debt was $5.6 trillion, now it's about $9 trillion and rising. As a percent of GDP, it rose modestly from 35.1% to around 37%.

8 years ago, the national surplus was 236 billion, while today the US has a deficit of 240 billion.

Eventhough I agree with Malaka's statement that "The state of education in the US is in worse shape than I even thought...", he/she should check his/her own facts before being critical of somebody else's education.

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99. At 5:59pm on 11 Sep 2008, rbaldasare wrote:
Jordan, Sarah Palin called, she wants her huntin' knife back.

Once again another potential US voter proves they have no clue, what is going on in the world.

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100. At 6:10pm on 11 Sep 2008, Jokers_Wild wrote:
In response to Davidwoolf's comment - I wouldn't read too much into that, pretty much everyone in LA is an aspiring model/actress/writer from what I have picked up from watching too much TV over the years.

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101. At 6:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, bedeviled wrote:
5. At 12:40pm on 11 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote: I think she means she supports a government that is in favour of a free market and dropping trade tarifs and also cuts taxes and limits public spending. Its not the clearest sentence in the world but its meaning isn't too hard to work out.

Peter -- clearly you give this woman much more credit than she is due --

no doubt about it - she is blond to her roots!

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102. At 6:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, qw1278er wrote:
After reading this, I never feel like getting out of Santa Monica 4 miles north of Venice Beach. I am moving up north to San Francisco this weekend. This part of southern California is the most beautiful place in the whole world! I will definitely miss this weather and people when I move up north!

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103. At 6:19pm on 11 Sep 2008, Portnawak wrote:
Idahobeauty,

You miss one important piece of information at #72.

Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden actually hated each other, the latter actually described the former as the devil. Saddam Hussein was probably the west's best ally against Islamic Fundamentalists, just think he'd already crushed them in his own country... Just exactly how were terrorists going to get hold of WMDs when they were already in prison, in hiding or in some mass grave somewhere?

Iraq was the only country in the entire region where Islamic fundamentalism had been entirely wiped out. Now look at the place.

As for the existance of WMDs, even Hans Blix (cheif weapons inspector in Iraq) said that the claims made by the UK and US about WMDs were exaggerated and that the claims were made to sell the war to the public. Job done there...

It may be right that if Saddam were still in power then Iraq would be under a reign of terror - but the people of Iraq would not be turning, in droves, to fundamentalism and terrorism and plotting our demise and our soldiers demise.

Still, Bush and his friends made a couple of billion out of it so who cares?

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104. At 6:22pm on 11 Sep 2008, respectedChandi wrote:
Well reading all these comments makes me feel that America is the centre of the earth! obviously it is not. So get realistic...read some history, analyse the economy and observe how the War on Terror is progressing ! You may end up wanting to quit America and live in Iraq! Well this is from the gut...

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105. At 6:37pm on 11 Sep 2008, iceph03nix wrote:
Im enjoying the fact that everyone here is immediately setting Jordan up as an airhead based on a picture and 4 paragraphs. You would all do very well on a internet dating site.

Firstly, as far as her statement about Fiscal and economic policy is concerned, she is a student. If her university is anything like the one I'm attending she is required to take several courses in both economics and political science. Both of which should discuss the differences in economic theory. (I won't explain the differences since they have been explained well above) So it is very likely that these concepts are all fresh in her mind. How long has it been since you studied financial policy in depth?

Secondly, many people seem to be keying off the statement "I like the look of Sarah Palin." For those who misinterpreted this, she is NOT talking about how Sarah Palin physically looks. She is referring to her impression of Palin as a person.

Thirdly, a note to Jon. LA is not California. California is 163,696 sq. mi. The third largest state in the union. I know several people from CA, none of them from the city, and all of them would object if you said that California is a state of hippies.

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106. At 6:54pm on 11 Sep 2008, notnert wrote:
In ref to sensorsensor (#14 above).

Unfortunately our current administration is cut from the same cloth as the those "tobacco chewing, chicken shooting, hicks" that you describe. Our "red neck" leaders are the face of america, therefore the world will see this and respond accordingly.

And with Sarah Palin, moose and wolves will be added to the hunt, shot at from a helicopter operated on taxpayers' dollars.

Also targeted: womens' rights, books, gays and lesbians and non-christians.

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107. At 6:56pm on 11 Sep 2008, worldbfree wrote:
Sarah Peagler, of course, has no idea what she is talking about. Down the street you would have found 10 more like her, nice people all, without a hint of a clue about politics. I live right nearby, and hear debates all the time about how the candidates look. And no one knows which political party any of them are in.
believe it.

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108. At 7:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, Cyrus_Kazi wrote:
As I read the comments by people like Jordan Peagler, featured in your blog, I realize how backward, misinformed, and painfully ignorant half the country is.

At this day and age, people still vote based on looks, appearance, style. Being born in a developing country, where politics and political corruption is like religion, I sometimes find myself among educated, well-intentioned Americans who have absolutely no idea about issues, the country, and even the rest of the world.

One thing that Americans, and the rest of the world needs to understand simply - THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE MARKET, nor are the so-called "free markets" free for competition. Regulations, subsidies, tariffs, etc. make every market "not free" and "not so competitive". It's economic history and economics 101. I am tired of people praising the U.S. "free market", when we are not. Get your theories right.

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109. At 7:15pm on 11 Sep 2008, wnewman106 wrote:
I've been to the UK many times and find the people to be wonderful. While Americans are just as wonderful, there are quite a few differences and they show in some of the comments I've seen on this blog.
One difference is that the UK is on a relatively small island where space is at a premium and was and still is to some extent owned by an aristocracy. America is comparatively wide open and still has a certain amount of meritocracy about it. We seem divided because the education system has had the standards drastically lowered since the baby boomer generation has been in charge. We have more of the "I Feel...." rather than the "I Think..." types now than we used to so we have people who feel that the European style "Nanny State" is the way to go. The Thinkers know that Capitalism has, decade by decade, country by country, and continent by continent, made life much better for the most people. The people that "Feel" rather than "Think" have not learned from the examples that history has supplied us all such as the failures of Marxism, Communism, Socialism, Fascism, etc. They think if "only they were in charge it would work this time". Well, it never has worked yet and when you ask the typical person on the street here, they can only mouth platitudes and slogans and can't think for themselves.

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110. At 7:17pm on 11 Sep 2008, Mister_Eon wrote:
What a display of ignorance!

I'm not, of course, responding to Jordan - who seemed to be an articulate and reasonably intelligent girl - but to some of the respondents here.

I don't need to go into why what she said about economic policy isn't ridiculous, that's been done to death already, so I'll tackle why what she said about Iraq isn't stupid, instead.

Whilst the decision to invade Iraq wasn't predicated by WMD's, 9/11 or many of the reasons given for it at the time, it has come to be THE major combat ground between Western forces and Eastern Insurgency.

Al Qaeda is investing heavily in the area, as it is in Afghanistan, and the vast majority of its operations are now carried out in those two areas.

If you want to play a simple numbers game - look at the casualties. Over 3,000 dead within a couple of hours during one day in 2001, versus circa 4,000 dead over the course of all the years between then and now. Casualties have obviously been seriously reduced per year.

You might wave Iraqi/Afghani casualties at me, but any serious student of Counter-Insurgency knows that NO Insurgency can survive without support from the indigenous population. In essence they are doing this to themselves - if they ceased to support the, for the most part, foreign terrorists then the war would have ended, their infrastructure would have been rebuilt and our troops would all be home by now.

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111. At 7:27pm on 11 Sep 2008, PhiladelphiaMom wrote:
Dear SuperDouchie (#90)

"A fine example of why Europeans find America so laughable. Can someone tell me where I can find in the USA a ceremony remembering the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in Iraq?"

Ahem... I dare say I resemble that comment. I'm American, and I agree that most European Stereotypes about Americans are based on some truth.

BUT - there are weekly prayer vigils at a church down my street that prays for peace and for all of those innocents lost in Iraq due to the stoopidity of our gov't. Also, I have a number of friends who protest in DC regularly. Granted, it's not covered on TeeVee or on an international blog... yet.

Yo Jon - wanna come visit North Philly? We're fun - and we're about half-way between NY and DC!

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112. At 7:35pm on 11 Sep 2008, jhbrown103 wrote:
News flash - "fiscal" and "economic" are not interchangable words. I'm pretty sure that she meant to say that she is economically conservative and socially liberal, as I am myself.

However, I am sure she has no idea what she is talking about or what is going on the world either way.

And let me get something straight - the BBC pays Jon Kelly to do this in-depth investigation into American magic and dread?

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113. At 7:45pm on 11 Sep 2008, rainlawrence wrote:
whats the point on commenting on the blatherings of these clowns jon kelly way lays in the street,what a waste of everybodies time

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114. At 7:46pm on 11 Sep 2008, natalietane wrote:
I'm disgusted by some closed-minded and offensive comments here. Whole purpose of this blog is to talk to different people with different views in America. He barely started on his journey and you whine about conservatives appearing on the interview. She's obviously very young and is still in the process of developing her political and social views. Did you know everything about life when you were young? And please don't assume every Republican loves the war and knows nothing about real life. Both party has its share of rotten apples, and this election is proving that both parties do not quite get the American people.

I'm also a Republican, and I also do not support the immediate withdrawl of the troops. I'm not a warmonger, and I don't feel any joy in Iraqi civilians and our troops dying. I didn't support this war, but I'm realistic enough know that we can't just get out of this situation easily. We can't solve this problem simply by pouring money in or just by killing all dissidents.

I read about situations in Iraq everyday. My government started this war, and I think it's my duty to know much about it as possible. Whether you voted for Bush or not, he's your president so you better know what he's doing around the world and you better care.

Last two, three years have been most depressing. I don't think there wasn't a day when someone didn't die. Frankly, my selfishness won for a while, and I thought for a moment that we should just pull our troops out fast as possible. After all, Iraqis are not OUR people. Who cares, right?

But this year has somewhat renewed my hope for peace in Iraq. The situation there is still very unpredictable, but things seem to be very slowly improving. Violence and deaths have definitely decreased and things are more in control. I know things can still blow up in our face, but people are tentatively starting to hope. If we abandon Iraq right now, this would return to haunt us later. I definitely think something like 9/11 can happen again on our soil because of this war.

We have duty to make sure that Iraq is reasonably stable before we completely get out and have to make sure oil money in Iraq goes to its people, not to private companies or corrupt government officials. And we better make sure that our troops are treated right when they return. Many of them are bound to be traumatized. Things such as jobs, medical treatments, and compensations should be ready for them. We went into war totally unprepared, but I really hope we at least exit somewhat gracefully. And despite the huge divide in our country right now, I hope we can rally around our next president [whoever he may be] and make him to many great things. Despite everything, I still believe in greatness of America and its people.

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115. At 7:47pm on 11 Sep 2008, ColdWolfe wrote:
The saying goes "I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal." It's a generic reply college students learn to use in order to appear in touch with the political atmosphere. That said, I'm not sure what she's in touch with...except possibly the connection between caribou and deer hunting? Let's hope America ends up voting with its brain and not its trigger finger!

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116. At 7:52pm on 11 Sep 2008, Portnawak wrote:
Mister_Eon

Presumably you'd congratulate the US and UK for plunging Iraq into the crisis it is in and making it "THE major combat ground between Western forces and Eastern Insurgency" (whatever that means).

You even think that the hundred thousand or so dead have themselves to blame?

The utter ignorance of your disgusting comments is astonishing.

Maybe, just maybe, the Iraqis aren't that happy with their country being plunged into civil war by foreign invaders who are happily plundering the country for everything they can carry home.

Let me just remind you of something...

America had no good reason to attack Iraq. None.
Zip.
Nada.
Oh sorry, there was vast amounts of cash to be won but hey, I'm sure that Bush Cheney and Rumsfeld hadn't taken that into account at all.

Your country is pillaging another and all you can do is sneer at the dead.

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117. At 7:57pm on 11 Sep 2008, jimusuk wrote:
LA is a great place to live. The sun, the beach, the mountains, the food, the cheer.

I'd live there if I could. I've just spent a year in rain sodden Warwick, not many brain surgeons there either - maybe too busy wondering how to pay for cars, petrol, heating, food, and houses. (And where to watch national football team's games).
Oh yeah, and when do they get to vote for a PM in power?

As for a Southern girl voting Republican?
She bought her politics along with her suntan lotion when she moved to CA.

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118. At 8:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, allenapv wrote:
You understand that a 'typical American' is at work during the day and at home with their families in the evening?

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119. At 8:20pm on 11 Sep 2008, Perrumpo wrote:
As a 21-year old female American, I can safely proclaim that Jordan Peagler neither represents the US as a whole, nor does she represent American women in her age group.

Also, I'm a soldier in the US Army. I, certainly, know that my country needs change within numerous areas of government, industry, and society. I will choose not to delve into politics too far here, however, I do agree that McCain will not initiate the drastic changes I crave for my country and that my country needs. It's, also, a joke for Palin to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. I am an Independent and consider each party unbiasedly according to their red or blue beliefs. With that said, I do believe that this election's Republican party is a mockery of itself that will cause the world's opinion of America to sink further than it already has. After all, it would mean that the US has chosen another four years of the past eight.

I will be hoping, and voting, that the majority of my country realizes the chance it is being given to start reforming for the better instead of staying where we are.

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120. At 8:25pm on 11 Sep 2008, JamieHeaney wrote:
O my, I can't think.

What just happened, I was half-way through a blog thread and...

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121. At 8:27pm on 11 Sep 2008, efreeti wrote:
Why am I not surprised the Brits aren't posting my comments? Is it because I'm not some idiotic American troglodyte playing into your hateful stereotypes about Americans? I expected more from that famous "British" objectivity in journalism.

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122. At 8:28pm on 11 Sep 2008, Thomas wrote:
Jon,

All politics aside, I found your choice of Jordan as an interview subject rather a hoot since, as a long time resident of LA, and daily visitor to Venice Beach, my first reaction to her blonde hair and peace sign dress was...

TOURIST!!!!

For context, imagine a man wearing a bowler hat, Buckingham Palace t-shirt and maybe a pair of Union Jack shorts. Local? Not likely. All Jordan needs to look more authentically inauthentic is Beach Boys music and a Baywatch t-shirt.

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123. At 8:43pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
natalietane

You put forward lots of arguments and I think you most probably believe them all. Bottom line is though, do you really want McCain, a 30 year Status Quo man, and his pitbull in Lipstick to lead the country? Do you really want more of the same? Their campaign is so obviously becoming a personality cult. Or are you going to be brave and put your vote somewhere else?

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124. At 8:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, Devo-D wrote:
Am I missing something? Jordon said "I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal."

That means she has a conservative outlook on all things related to the economy and finance, and she has a liberal outlook on all things related to society.

So, Jordon wants the government to balance the budget but she is OK with gay marriage.

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125. At 8:54pm on 11 Sep 2008, mrencino wrote:
Boy some of you need to read the article more closely (Malaka57). First off, since when does anyone listen to 21 year old students for anything other than music recommendations?

The girl said she was a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. A fiscal conservative on the Left Coast prefers a small, well-managed government that is responsible with our tax dollars and minimizes its involvement in our lives.

A social liberal is supportive of abortion rights, gay rights, affirmative action and trends towards a relatively more caring attitude towards social issues. For example, people convicted of personal drug possession can seek treatment for their addiction instead of jail, medical marijuana is legal, and there are a wealth of resources available for people with disabilities.

I think the next two stops on the tour of California should be Orange County, which is an incredibly rich area that is one of the most right wing areas in the US, and perhaps the city of Long Beach, where you can see the real Southern California: people of all races and nations working together in more mundane industries such as defence, shipping, manufacturing and energy.

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126. At 8:54pm on 11 Sep 2008, BrianfromBrussels wrote:
I am an American living abroad and I am embaressed and ashamed by the past 8 years and am afraid that the shallowness demonstrated by the beautiful girl who doesn't even understand what the peace sign means. Unfortunately, I often hear Americans say they will vote for a candidate "because I like his wife", or "I'm not for gay marriage".

Ignorance is no US monopoly -
In my experience, there is no shortage of ignorant loudmouths just about anywhere you go.
it's just a shame that the US uninformed mindlessness ruins things for the entire world.

I sense no US-bashing in the article at all.
A lot of pointless acrimony in the blog comments though.

Obama is the world's choice and the world's hope.
The only way to change the way the world thinks about us.
Not the mean-spirited, self-centered Republicans.

Brian

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127. At 9:09pm on 11 Sep 2008, Korenthal wrote:
I am appalled at the sexism and mockery that liberals (from any country) are waging against Sarah Palin and now the nice girl depicted in the article. What is wrong with you ego-maniacs? What happened to advancing the cause of women? It seems to me that only a liberal woman is worthy of having her cause advanced. I am laughing at all of you Dumbocrats as you come apart at the seems.

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128. At 9:12pm on 11 Sep 2008, EJosephine wrote:
Hi

I am surprised that no one has pointed this out, (that I could find), but what Ms. Peagler is quoted as saying: that she is a"Fiscal conservative and a social liberal" is not contradictory in the American context. Fiscal conservative equals balanced budgets and the like. However "social liberal" in the U.S. basically has nothing to do with economics. One would expect a "social liberal" to be in favor of abortion, gay marriage, liberalization of drug laws and the like. So the latter term often and commonly refers to life issues/choices in the private/personal sphere. It may also refer to economic policies, but the "social" in front of the "liberal" points to a concern with personal sphere. Generally social liberals oppose government intervention and control on these issues. I realize that these terms have rather vague meanings, etc. But she is making a statement that is not self-contradictory over here. I hope this is of help.

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129. At 9:13pm on 11 Sep 2008, gersdorffite wrote:
I am reading that Jordan is a "fiscal conservative and a social liberal" . . . is there a national comprehension problem that needs to be addressed in this US election? In any event, how can a socially liberal female possibly put herself in the camp of Sarah Palin?

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130. At 9:19pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
To all whom are concerned about a pro-hunter, pro-life, pro-creationism candidate and feel that such a candidate is ludicrous, I have a simple solution...vote against the ticket. Unless, of course, you cannot vote in the US elections...then the saying "opinions are like bellybuttons...everyone has one and nobody cares about your opinion" comes immediately to mind.

The world will be a better place when politicians are willing to offend people to defend their position. That is the essence of leadership. If the voting public doesn't like the direction the leader has taken, they can remove the leader in the next election.

In the meantime, I suppose when your country (insert whatever nation you choose) achieves a level of perfection as yet unseen, then all of the vitriol directed towards the United States and its citizenry will have some value. Until that time, it is a case of "the pot calling the kettle black." Your country likely has problems that nobody else respects or wishes for their country.

For all the politically minded types reading this message, consider that the Democrats have had control of the House and Senate since 2006, NOT the Republicans. To simply believe the line that the Democrats (particularly the Obama supporters) that claim that we have had 8 years of Republican rule is the height of ignorance of US politics.

The general opinion of most Americans that I have spoken with is simply that whatever candidate the majority of Europeans prefer is a good enough reason to vote against that person. Sadly enough, when the United States achieved independence from Great Britain in 1783 and reaffirmed it in 1812, we showed that we were not interested in being part of Europe.

Please let me know when the last time that Europeans in general were honestly concerned for the welfare of the American public.

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131. At 9:24pm on 11 Sep 2008, rainlawrence wrote:
ITS AN APPOSITE POINT JON BLITHLEY DRIBBLES,GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!!!!

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132. At 9:26pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
I am reading that Jordan is a "fiscal conservative and a social liberal" . . . is there a national comprehension problem that needs to be addressed in this US election? In any event, how can a socially liberal female possibly put herself in the camp of Sarah Palin?

-------------------------

I suspect that the lack of comprehension is on the part of Europeans that are suddenly interested in the political discussion and lack the references necessary to understand the comment. Jordan's self description makes sense grammatically, even if someone disagrees with it logically/philosophically.

Jordan likely puts herself in McCain/Palin camp simply because Sara is a female and would have been happier if Hillary Clinton had made the Democratic ticket.

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133. At 9:29pm on 11 Sep 2008, somebeeguy wrote:
I am appalled at the attitudes that Americans have toward their own people, expressed here in these comments. It seems that outsiders show more respect for you than you show yourselves, especially during election years. Can't you disagree with someone's politics without dumping on them personally?

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134. At 9:32pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
I am an American living abroad and I am embaressed and ashamed by the past 8 years and am afraid that the shallowness demonstrated by the beautiful girl who doesn't even understand what the peace sign means. Unfortunately, I often hear Americans say they will vote for a candidate "because I like his wife", or "I'm not for gay marriage".

Ignorance is no US monopoly -
In my experience, there is no shortage of ignorant loudmouths just about anywhere you go.
it's just a shame that the US uninformed mindlessness ruins things for the entire world.

I sense no US-bashing in the article at all.
A lot of pointless acrimony in the blog comments though.

Obama is the world's choice and the world's hope.
The only way to change the way the world thinks about us.
Not the mean-spirited, self-centered Republicans.

Brian

-------------------

Brian,

Luckily, the world has no vote in the matter, much as the US voters have no voice in the elections in another country.

I do not like the last 8 years either, but please do not make the same mistake that others have made..the Republicans have not been "running the game" for the last couple years.

Look around you...you will see the same ignorant decisions being made by the ignorant masses in Europe about which candidate to choose. If everyone made a fully informed decision about their candidate, the powers that be would have a difficult time!

Just remember, the "machine get's what the machine wants"...same in the US...same in Europe.

My suggestion about Obama is that we buy him a ticket and let him come run the European country of your choice...he is a better fit there than here. He is a socialistic followed closely by being an elitist. McCain is a capitalistic followed closely by elitist.

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135. At 9:36pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
You put forward lots of arguments and I think you most probably believe them all. Bottom line is though, do you really want McCain, a 30 year Status Quo man, and his pitbull in Lipstick to lead the country? Do you really want more of the same? Their campaign is so obviously becoming a personality cult. Or are you going to be brave and put your vote somewhere else?

------------------------

terraAthena,

This is compared with a personality cult figurehead for president with a 35 status quo man for VP? Looks like we have such a wonderful choice...so given two almost as bad choices...going with the ticket that put forth a Presidential candidate with almost 30 years more national experience would seem to be the way to go...not to mention a VP with some actual executive experience. Did I miss something here? Other arguments seem to only center on the politics, not the qualifications.

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136. At 9:38pm on 11 Sep 2008, Dickwhistle wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
137. At 9:46pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
As a 21-year old female American, I can safely proclaim that Jordan Peagler neither represents the US as a whole, nor does she represent American women in her age group.

Also, I'm a soldier in the US Army. I, certainly, know that my country needs change within numerous areas of government, industry, and society. I will choose not to delve into politics too far here, however, I do agree that McCain will not initiate the drastic changes I crave for my country and that my country needs. It's, also, a joke for Palin to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. I am an Independent and consider each party unbiasedly according to their red or blue beliefs. With that said, I do believe that this election's Republican party is a mockery of itself that will cause the world's opinion of America to sink further than it already has. After all, it would mean that the US has chosen another four years of the past eight.

I will be hoping, and voting, that the majority of my country realizes the chance it is being given to start reforming for the better instead of staying where we are.

-------------

Perrumpo,

Thankfully, you are not representative of the US electorate either! :-)

I think that the majority of the US voting public realizes that Obama represents change...to a more socialistic society and to a government run by a complete novice.

The US could do a lot to improve its image worldwide. The first would be to stop getting involved in the internal politics of other countries. The easiest way to do this is to break our dependence on foreign oil. Then we do not have to concern ourselves with the Middle East at all. Simplistic, perhaps...but better than what I have heard from Obama and his cult.

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138. At 9:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, Buffaloblog wrote:
Oh, come on guys... Jordan Peagler said she was a fiscal conservative and a SOCIAL liberal. If you are going to have a rant about her presumed IQ do at least read the quote right.

Actually, that concept probably sums up California quite well and it doesn't seem to do them too badly. California has what, the 7th or 8th biggest economy in the World?

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139. At 9:58pm on 11 Sep 2008, arealarson wrote:
Jon,
If you haven't passed it, there is a good Greek restaurant in Baker, California. Probably the only one in town that isn't a formula restaurant. Wish I was with you. Could show you Native American geoglyphs just outside of town.
When you go to Nevada try to hang out at the bars and clubs the casino entertainment workers go to. Different perspective.

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140. At 10:02pm on 11 Sep 2008, englejj wrote:
Seriously, I thought I was the only one to notice this. On my screen I read "...social liberal," (albeit preceded by "an" rather than "a"). Did somebody change the text or have all these bloggers completely disregarded the text of the actual article they are arguing about? Either way, it's comical.

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141. At 10:04pm on 11 Sep 2008, Dickwhistle wrote:
The problem here in the states is that we simply get rid of all the Republicans and the Democrats. Once we eliminate the lots, with extreme prejudice, we may have a chance of regaining our reputation. You see, it's a matter of size and we simply have population pressure leading us to think we actually matter. And to those who don't like the fact that many of us hate ourselves, and we're not afraid to admit it, we hate you and your country too.

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142. At 10:05pm on 11 Sep 2008, LiberalAndrea wrote:
As an American, a New Yorker and a pissed off voter ready for real change, this girl's lack of information and sheer idiocy frustrates me. Palin spits in the face of the millions of women who fought hard so women could achieve what she is making a mockery of. She was instated as McCain's viper to spit at the opponent and take the rap for it. A side show puppet to do his dirty work and take the heat off him. If he stood about insulting Obama it would make him look bad, but he doesn't mind relinquishing that role to a woman. Her nomination was politricks at its finest and it is very disturbing to see it work so easily among the youth.

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143. At 10:21pm on 11 Sep 2008, strangewurld1 wrote:
I reckon things were edited above, she now reads "social liberal" which is the antithesis of Mrs. Palin; perhaps this contradiction could be pointed out to the cute, but clueless inquisitioned. One good thing about the young lady is she is probably not registered to vote and wouldn't follow through anyway, as is true for most of her generation.
And yes, to all you economics-challenged Republican apologists-soon-to-be-revisionists who have posted already, the current administration has not only written enormous checks from the Treasury to pay for their misguided neo-conservative pogram (how many neo-cons are left in the admin if they were so spot on?) in Iraq, topping that off-budget item (the war bill is not included in the national debt - wait till we get that one) was the brilliant Reagan-inspired, post-voodoo economics, trickle-down tax giveaway to the top 5-10% of America, cunning fobbed-off on the dodo middle class (the same boobs who will vote for Sarah Palin thinking she is one of them). To give your young lovely a taste of the future America under Sister Palin (um, let me get this straight - she would become president if something happened to shakey John McCain?) - have her read Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale.
Ah, if Ms Pretty Blonde above would only bother to read beyond the headlines - and how could she avoid the Rupert Murdoch headlines - he owns practically everything. I will say, it is shocking how ill-informed, passive and gullable the American public is. Almost as many who believe in reincarnation, UFOs, and Hell believe the Pledge of Allegiance - complete with the McCarthy Era addition of "under God" - is part of the US Constitution, yup, the same one prescribing separation of Church and State. So what can you expect? Especially from transplants here, who by the looks of things, are fishing for a job on the soapbox of godlessness - Hollywood. "Trailer" Palin will make us yearn for the good old days of "Shotgun" Dick Cheney.

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144. At 10:36pm on 11 Sep 2008, cleve99 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not all that surprised by Jordan Peagler's naïveté. In some ways it was a masterful stroke by the GOP to come up with an utterly unqualified person as a running mate for Mr. McCain. It has served to actively misdirect attention away from Mr. McCain so that he can avoid the hard questions about his long allegiance to the Bush driven ultra conservative regime America has been burdened with for the last eight years.

Republicans are mindlessly enamored by Ms. Palin and seem to be suffering from some sort of mass delusion regarding her qualifications for the job. Maybe that's because no one has been asking what seems like a obvious question in my mind: Would you vote for her a president? That's really the issue, isn't it? My guess is that these Palin groupies would pause on that question. If they don't we're in deep trouble in this country.

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145. At 10:40pm on 11 Sep 2008, eddienix wrote:
A little blurb on Venice Beach--

I have lived in Venice Beach for over 6 years, and I worked in Venice for a few years prior to living here. Don't be so quick to judge and/or praise Venice Beach and its flakey, hippy dippy residents. True, it has always had that bohemian air to it: Charlie Chaplin used to film here; Jim Morrison and the Doors formed a band here, as did Little Feat and X; Roger Corman's old indie movie studio was in Venice; Dennis Hopper lives here, as do many artists, celebrities, misfits, families, drug dealers, gang members, ex gang members, homeless people, wannabes, old hippies, aging punks, musicians, young professionals, trust fund kids, etc.

But these days, like many other parts of coastal America, Venice Beach has been the beneficiary (or victim) of the housing boom, and it has become more watered down with McMansions and the blandness of urban gentrification. Though Venice is still quite unique and probably always will be to some degree, that uniqueness is threatened. Now Venice -- like many of the trendy neighborhoods in cities throughout the U.S. and Europe -- can come off as being more pretentious than creative. Too much money and too many rich people with little real interest in culture, politics or the arts ultimately cause a place lose its edge by driving away its artists, urban rebels, misfits and more colorful characters. It could become a place just like any other wealthy coastal community in America, which would be a horror if it happened in total.

So, it's not surprising to run across a "Jordan Peagler" in a place like Venice. 10-15 years ago a girl like her would have no reason to be on Abbot Kinney Blvd. It was not fashionable back then. It was just a run down street. I'm guessing you could find some good political discussion or some discussion about the arts back then to go along with a party and a good time. You still can, though it is more likely that these days you'll run in to someone like Jordan: a nice blonde in a dress with a peace sign who can't decide if she'll vote for Obama or McCain. Nothing wrong with a girl like Jordan. It's just that your BBC reporter would have had a different impression of Venice back in the day. I suppose what happened to Venice also happened to some degree in Soho and the Left Bank and other places in Amercian and Western Cities that used to be associated with artists, bohemians, free-thinkers, etc. Venice was never quite Berkeley since there was never a college campus in Venice to match all the arts and politics. But even Berkeley has gone the way of Venice to some degree, though maybe not as far.

Venice used to have a large working class, middle class and bohemian community that -- for the most part -- made nice lives for themselves. This community is all but gone now, unable to afford to live in Venice (unless they have been in the same home for years or they have an older, cheap rental control apartment, like I do). There was also danger in Venice, more than there is now for sure, particularly in a certain area that used to be called "Ghost Town," which was plagued with drug dealers and street gangs. It is a good thing that most of the poverty and crime and Venice has been eliminated. But it hasn't really been eliminated. It's just moved to other neighborhoods less glamorous. Middle class familes and rich familes still do not send their kids to Venice High School. Too dangerous and too poor academically.

If you want a glimpse of what Venice used to be like in the early seventies, rent the film Cisco Pike, about a struggling musician/drug dealer and his relationship with a cop, starring Kris Kristofferson and Gene Hackman. If you want to see what it is like today, I am sure any number of reality TV shows on MTV and VH1 feature harmless, loud, drunk rich kids having a good time here. Neither represents the Venice of yesterday and today in total (neither does The Big Lebowsky, probably the most famous film set in Venice), but they're not too far off the mark either.

For years people warned me about moving to Venice and tried to argue me out of it, saying it was too dangerous. I wish I hadn't listened to them. If I had bought a place in Venice in the mid-nineties -- when few people wanted to -- I would have benefitted from the urban gentrification. Poor, poor, pitiful me. I can't imagine how much the old hippie who owns my old apartment building (which he bought for dirt cheap in the late 70s) is now worth. Millions I'm sure. Now Venice -- in its own kooky way -- personifies the American Dream (an expression, by the way, far more favored by over-stimulated Europeans who work for the BBC and wide-eyed immigrants) of getting rich from the once rocketing housing market. Many other neighborhoods in America have been crushed by the credit crunch and all the foreclosures that came to due to the decline in home values. Not Venice. No way. Venice, and its sister Santa Monica to the north, rivals Manhattan and the Bay Area in the cost of housing. That may change, but I wouldn't bet on it.

But Venice has always been a complicated, fascinating place, filled with the highs and lows of California existence. It used to be a more creative, freer place, with more than enough of a ghetto to be "real" or to be "street." Now much of that creativity and freedom is gone. Venice now is home to corporate types as much as artist, weirdo types -- just like San Francsico, New York and many other places. These days people want their cake and to eat it too and don't mind being a watered-down yuppie with no political, cultural or artistic concerns to get in the way of a pair of nice sunglasses or a pair of $250 jeans. Just like gentrified communities everywhere else in the western world. I haven't been able to escape from the bland wealth that has come through, though I am tempted to try harder. I miss the older, crazier "DIY" Venice, even if I never really knew it for more than half a second. Maybe I'm just being too nostalgic, but the older Venice (or maybe simply the idea of it) was simply more interesting, more exciting and more inspiring. Now it's in danger of just being another rich beach town. It was never intended to be just another place. If that uniqueness of Venice Beach dies, then something of the uniqueness, freedom, creativity and eccentricity of California dies with it.

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146. At 10:44pm on 11 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
I quote:

not to mention a VP with some actual executive experience.

rvanengen, seems you have fallen for Sarah Palin's attempts to 'rubbish' the opposition's profile by claiming that her political career in a small town in which she said she had 'actual responsibilities' (teamaking?) is somehow better than Obama's wider polictical experience. She is 'one of the people'. Has she really succeeded in making you think you should vote for her and McCain because they really are no better than anyone else? Or you? Is she really representative of the women in your circle? Wake up and look at the policies on offer. Don't vote based on personalities, or because Sarah Palin goes to church, likes hunting, is pro life or believes in creationism. Yes, I do believe the Republicans are running a campaign based on personalities. They always have, and they are good at it. That is why they win - people don't scratch below the surface and look at what they are actually offering to do once in power. Anyone too intellingent (Kerry, Gore), loses out to this because seemingly the US voting behaviour is easy to manipulate, worshipping at the altar of the personality cult and celebrity. Intelligent discussion is sidelined - and sadly it looks as if the population is threatened by intelligent debate. They would much prefer to vote for someone who shares their hobbies? If you look at the Republican policies they offer no change. Change is needed.

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147. At 10:44pm on 11 Sep 2008, blschill wrote:
Agreement that the quote in the blog refers to being a social liberal.

At least it is a lesson that claiming to be a "fiscal conservative and a social liberal" is suitable for situations where coversation has stalled.

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148. At 10:44pm on 11 Sep 2008, MrSANMARTIN wrote:
rvanengen, quick question on your 137 post ..... where exactly will the oil to set the US free from foreign crude will come from ? WHERE ? Oh yeah, first step, kill all the moose and wolf in Alaska, second step, drill the guts out of the richest state in the union, who cares about the wildlife anyway and they you'll be free from the F word ( Fooooreign ) for 10 more years. Then what ? my god, and I am not even religious ...

wait Ms Palin wait I didn't mean that !!! I am religious, Hail Bog and his warsend !

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149. At 10:48pm on 11 Sep 2008, molloygus wrote:
she didn't say economic liberalism, she said social liberism. you should read before you write.

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150. At 10:49pm on 11 Sep 2008, littleHappyKatyKat wrote:
I'm not old enough to vote yet, but if I could I would vote for Obama. He's just so ridiculously BETTER than McCain, it's makes you wonder why on earth you would want to vote for McCain. Obama's a great speaker, he's young, he's the new fresh start the US needs!

I didn't go on this website to talk about the election, I went on it to get an article for my current events essay at school, and I was interested in the comments, I wanted to leave my own.

For the record, this jornalist talked to some random girl at the beach...of course she's not going to know what the heck she's talking about! Not all americans are airheads, and I seriously hope we'll prove that by voting for a President Obama.

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151. At 11:00pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
At 10:36pm on 11 Sep 2008, cleve99 wrote:

Unfortunately I'm not all that surprised by Jordan Peagler's na?vet?. In some ways it was a masterful stroke by the GOP to come up with an utterly unqualified person as a running mate for Mr. McCain. It has served to actively misdirect attention away from Mr. McCain so that he can avoid the hard questions about his long allegiance to the Bush driven ultra conservative regime America has been burdened with for the last eight years.

Republicans are mindlessly enamored by Ms. Palin and seem to be suffering from some sort of mass delusion regarding her qualifications for the job. Maybe that's because no one has been asking what seems like a obvious question in my mind: Would you vote for her a president? That's really the issue, isn't it? My guess is that these Palin groupies would pause on that question. If they don't we're in deep trouble in this country.

-------------

The Democratic ticket would at least make *some* sense if Obama was the VP given his lack of qualification for Senator...much less President.

Until that time...well...*shrug*... just liberals being liberals. Facts matter not a wit.

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152. At 11:01pm on 11 Sep 2008, Destroy_All_Monsters wrote:
"Seriously, I thought I was the only one to notice this. On my screen I read "...social liberal," (albeit preceded by "an" rather than "a"). Did somebody change the text or have all these bloggers completely disregarded the text of the actual article they are arguing about? Either way, it's comical."

Yes, someone changed the text. It used to say:

"I'm a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal."

It now says:

"I'm a fiscal conservative and an social liberal."

As you point out "an" is used instead of "a", presumably because someone didn't read the sentence back after the edit.

It's pretty stupid that no comment was posted saying that the quote had been updated or why, especially when so many of the comments here have been specifically related to it. Was Jordan's original quote wrong and has now been updated? Was the quote right but has been changed to make it clearer what she meant (or rather, what the journalist thinks she meant)? I don't know which of these would be worse: inaccuracy or convenient mistruth.

I'd also like to say that I'm amazed that so many people instantly leapt to "don't you people even have reading comprehension skills? That's not what the quote says". The comment I quoted above was the first I noticed that actually analysed the text and noticed the obvious an/a red flag that an edit had been made. It also calmly pointed out that something odd had obviously happened without immediately resorting to an attack.

Finally, regarding the quote itself, I did initially think Jordan's comment was ridiculous. So I went to dictionary.com and looked up "fiscal" and "economic". It was clear after doing so that she meant she wants a "conservative" government that keeps a tight reign on spending but which supports "liberal" social programmes and trade. Not that hard to figure out.

That said, and this is perhaps judging Jordan without enough information, the quote does have more than a whiff of a parroted soundbite about it than a considered opinion. To be honest, I think that's a failing of the article though which, as others have pointed out, is journalism-lite and neither revealing nor insightful.

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153. At 11:06pm on 11 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
rvanengen, seems you have fallen for Sarah Palin's attempts to 'rubbish' the opposition's profile by claiming that her political career in a small town in which she said she had 'actual responsibilities' (teamaking?) is somehow better than Obama's wider polictical experience. She is 'one of the people'. Has she really succeeded in making you think you should vote for her and McCain because they really are no better than anyone else? Or you? Is she really representative of the women in your circle? Wake up and look at the policies on offer. Don't vote based on personalities, or because Sarah Palin goes to church, likes hunting, is pro life or believes in creationism. Yes, I do believe the Republicans are running a campaign based on personalities. They always have, and they are good at it. That is why they win - people don't scratch below the surface and look at what they are actually offering to do once in power. Anyone too intellingent (Kerry, Gore), loses out to this because seemingly the US voting behaviour is easy to manipulate, worshipping at the altar of the personality cult and celebrity. Intelligent discussion is sidelined - and sadly it looks as if the population is threatened by intelligent debate. They would much prefer to vote for someone who shares their hobbies? If you look at the Republican policies they offer no change. Change is needed.

--------------

Ok...let's play...what "experience" does Obama bring to the table that is a good indicator of his leadership potential on a national level? Let's set aside "political" experience for the moment. What does he bring?

As far as being representative of women "in my circle"...yes, actually she is VERY representative, or at least as much as one person can be representative of another.

Now...let's also put aside this "intelligent" argument since it is difficult to call either Kerry or Gore intelligent.

But, let's look at the personality cult...what exactly would you call the Obama campaign?? The Democrats selected someone much less intelligent and experienced because of the personality cult. Why not Hillary? She is FAR more qualified than Obama.

Finally, exactly what "change" are you talking about? Please be specific.

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154. At 11:07pm on 11 Sep 2008, Perrumpo wrote:
"Perrumpo,

Thankfully, you are not representative of the US electorate either! :-)"

I at least know that I partially am... thankfully.

"I think that the majority of the US voting public realizes that Obama represents change...to a more socialistic society and to a government run by a complete novice.

The US could do a lot to improve its image worldwide. The first would be to stop getting involved in the internal politics of other countries. The easiest way to do this is to break our dependence on foreign oil. Then we do not have to concern ourselves with the Middle East at all. Simplistic, perhaps...but better than what I have heard from Obama and his cult."

Firstly, you assume that, because I do not support the Republicans in this election, I agree with everything Obama, when in reality, I never mentioned him. Unfortunately these days, the presidential election is about voting against someone, not for someone. Neither candidate is made of gold. Each has their weaknesses. But I do believe McCain would be worse for my country and its image than Obama.

Breaking our dependence on foreign oil sounds great and is surely a good move to make, but what about breaking our dependence on oil in general? McCain said in front of everyone that he will "drill more!!!" McCain, please focus your enthusiasm towards alternative energy instead.

Obviously, I signed up for the Army during Bush's presidency. Whether our presence in Iraq is wrong or right, I believed my country was worth representing, and I still do for reasons beyond loyalty. If, however, the US votes to follow McCain, it will cause me to reconsider, which is something I never thought to be possible.

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155. At 11:11pm on 11 Sep 2008, stevetwhite wrote:
I guess no one has noticed that she said that she is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. Social liberals are pro choice . Most probably also support gay marriage and liberal drug laws.
I lived in London for about 15 years. Great city!

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156. At 11:18pm on 11 Sep 2008, Perrumpo wrote:
"Republicans are mindlessly enamored by Ms. Palin and seem to be suffering from some sort of mass delusion regarding her qualifications for the job."

cleve99,

Don't they? And not only about Palin's qualifications!

"Maybe that's because no one has been asking what seems like a obvious question in my mind: Would you vote for her a president? That's really the issue, isn't it? My guess is that these Palin groupies would pause on that question. If they don't we're in deep trouble in this country."

Agreed.

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157. At 11:22pm on 11 Sep 2008, QPRfantilthedayidie wrote:
Why so critical of the USA? I have just returned home from England after a 2 year absence. The looney left has got it's way, being a working, taxpaying male in England must seem a pointless task when looking at the way immigrants are handed everything for free. Obama will take the US down the same road, willingly speaking with terrorists. NORAID was openly supported by the Democrat liberal Irish here in the US, President Bush cut off their supply of money. I don't agree with everything he does, but a choice of a Gordon Brown clone and it's looney liberal ideas with Obama or the McCain/Palin choice give me McCain/Palin anyday.
Wake up Britain the US is your biggest ally, not the Germans and French as they all want you to believe.

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158. At 11:22pm on 11 Sep 2008, wordwhispers wrote:
First, let me say that Jon has—in few, yet elegant words—captured the spirit of California's beachfront culture. I lived in it for some years before moving to the Pacific Northwest.

Second, my apologies for any American-English words that need an extra "u" or two.

That said, I am flummoxed at what I always considered a British ability to read far better than we . . . over here. Wrong.

Blog commentators are arguing that there cannot be such a creature as a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal.

Say what? Read Jon's copy: it's "fiscal conservative" and "social liberal."

And to close, it's not "back in the day," bloggers. It's right now. And we've been wrong for eight years. The question is, do we have the courage to acknowledge that.

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159. At 11:29pm on 11 Sep 2008, CecilSooner wrote:
The fact that no attacks have occurred in 7 years seems to indicate that the Bush Administration's efforts are proving successful.

And fiscal conservatism and social liberalism are perfectly compatible. In fact, you can hardly sustain one without the other: uncontrolled government spending requires more taxes which requires more government intrusion.

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160. At 11:31pm on 11 Sep 2008, homerpaloooza wrote:
Reading through all the comments, and it strikes me how uncivil and rude people are who have responded to this blog. It appears most of them are not Americans either.

Most college educated Americans I have met are civil, nice, thought provoking people who can kindly disagree without insult and have good social intelligence. Regardless of how the media play them out to be.

Gentle, intelligent debate is a thing of the past, especially in the UK it seems. It's too bad for them. The US is just too kind not to rude about it.

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161. At 11:33pm on 11 Sep 2008, CecilSooner wrote:
Also, I note a lot of Limey jealousy regarding California's more important position in the world vis-a-vis the UK. Get over it: your day is done.

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162. At 11:57pm on 11 Sep 2008, Nostromo51 wrote:
I lived in California,and visit often. There is an energy there made up of a combination of physical environment,history,and the people. I have relatives who migrated there in the late 1800s from the midwest,and thats pretty typical. I have a saying that has stuck with me. Everydays like Saturday in California. The individualism is still there,but real Americans are threatened by an increasing,liberal, panty waist mindset. I think Sarah Palin will do well here---she is the typical woman my mother ,grandmother,and women in my family were going back to the Civil War and before.

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163. At 00:11am on 12 Sep 2008, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:
Will acknowledge that at first was in the 'aren't fiscal conservative and economic liberal mutually contradictory' crowd. However, Peter_Sym seems to have hit the nail on the head: although badly worded, Jordan could be fiscally conservative and economically liberal, liberal being in a European (or non-American) sense of the word. That wouldn't be contradictory. Again, it seems that many liberals (this time in the American sense) here were too quick to jump the gun on the stupid, [evil] conservative shtick without trying first to fathom the mere idea that there was a chance, just a small chance, that this 'conservative' could be sane.

As for the Iraq part, that is perfectly valid. If Malaka57 would read the original blog post, he'd see that Jordan had *friends* who lost family members on September 11. Pulling out of Iraq now *would* increase the odds of Iraq descending in anarchy and becoming another Taleban Afghanistan or Somalia (or increasingly Pakistan). Malaka and others such as him demonstrate that tendency of many (not all) liberals to dually look down on opposing viewpoints while simultaneously being fairly ignorant themselves (because they are too quick to dismiss opposing viewpoints?).

Akin to their candidate, Obama, they seem to cling to much to how the United States should not have invaded Iraq. Today, many Americans all over the political spectrum would agree with them--but that is not the point. The fact is, today the United States is in Iraq, and if the Americans withdraw too early, Iraq will become a failed state (or more of a failed state, depending on your perspective) with much of the Muslim world hating the USA even more than pre-September 11.

Now if the Americans have a presence in Iraq ensuring some stability, as the Americans did in South Korea, then Iraq can become more stable (as has happened since the surge) and prosper. A successful Iraq (which if you bring religion and politics into this--and many Muslims believe this war is against Islam and not just violent, Islamist radicals--is much more a symbolical choice for change than backwater Afghanistan) would show poor Muslims that their is a way other than joining alqaeda and co. You can debate whether or not democracy makes a nation more peaceful.

A successful, prosperous Iraq would also go a long way toward getting the Muslim world to at least grudgingly respect and admire the United States--which would have freed Iraq from Saddam Hussein, introduced democracy, brought Iraq from stagnant third world status to emerging economy or even developed status, while still letting Iraqis be Muslims and thus negating the argument that the war is a against Islam, under this scenario.

Whether or not the USA should have invaded Iraq, they did. End of story. The only thing up for debate now is how to resolve the Iraq issue. If you are sane, you should support an American presence in Iraq for a while, as that seems to be the only plausible way at the moment for Iraq to stay stable and develop while there are still many Islamists, plus a growing traditional rival in Iran. Withdraw, and that could plunge the whole Middle East (or even the whole Muslim world) into Wahhabist radicalism which could be downright destructive to the region and could spread violence to the USA, Europe, India, the Philippines, Thailand, even China, and other parts of the globe (many non-Arab/Persian Muslims take their cues from Southwestern Asia, after all).

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164. At 00:17am on 12 Sep 2008, prplhz wrote:
Let me translate Jordan's response, being a southern girl myself...when she said "I like the look of Sarah Palin" she didn't mean it literally. It means her persona, the way she carries herself, her demeanor. I also find the sexist comments on this blog disturbing i.e. the only reason the BBC reporter talked to her because she was "pretty", etc. I guess Jordan can't be pretty and thoughtful at the same time!
I also am a Republican, college educated and stay informed about the politics of this country and am damned proud of the USA, warts and all. BTW, I lived in England in the 70's and still think the world of this beautiful country and it's people even if we disagree on politics.

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165. At 00:18am on 12 Sep 2008, funnylookingdumbguy wrote:
To peter_sym: she did not say she was an "economic" liberal she said she was a "social" liberal. i.e. abortion, gay rights, etc. etc.

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166. At 00:23am on 12 Sep 2008, AnonymousCalifornian wrote:
What is with all the hatred towards Creationism? Sure, you can believe Creationists are a bit wacky, but they are hardly going to strap bombs onto their bodies and blow themselves up at the supermarket.

And from a secular perspective, being Creationist or Evolutionist does diddly squat in terms of science for technological progress. Both Creationists and Evolutionists agree on the science observed today (i.e. how a cell works, the function of DNA, that the universe is expanding, quantum mechanics, etc.); it's only how 'this existence' all got started where they disagree. Debating the origins of the universe, or even of life, is not going to prevent the development of a quantum computer or reliable gene therapy.

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167. At 00:35am on 12 Sep 2008, tonich2o wrote:
I think the quiote was "fiscal conservative, SOCIAL liberal" .. so many people weighing in without even knowing what was said.
Attack first, check later Oh God..

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168. At 01:04am on 12 Sep 2008, terri72 wrote:
to Malaka57 and Peter_Sym, you are truly blinded by the liberal media world. We really did need to storm Iraq and we still need to be there and we need to finish business there. Many reasons. You forget, when Saddam would not comply with NATO. And of course he was a horrible dictator who tortured thousands and left people destitute. The media won't show the interviews of the Iraqi people who were thankful we overtook Saddam. AND, they were harboring terrorist that had much to do with Sept. 11. There have been several arrests to prove that. AND, if we left now, Iran is waiting to pounce and take over the country. ALSO, if any of you would actually talk to our brave men and women who have served over there. I asked a young man who was finished with his tour in Iraq if he thought we were waisting our time, money, and lives being over there. And he said of course he was nervous at first, but he saw with his own eyes ( NOT media's) that it WAS NESSESARY for us to be there. And my mother-in-law sat next to a soldier on the plane and thanked him for serving. And he said "If it wasn't for him wanting to see his 4 yr old, he didn't want to come home because he wants to take care of business." These brave men and women willingly sign on the line to serve and protect this country and others. And people like you Malaka57 and Peter_Sym, insult them and me with your mentality. OH, and the debt we are in, remember, the house is mainly ran by Democrats. It's their yes's and no's that has got us into this mess. NOT all Pres. Bush. When people have you tied in a chair, there's nothing you can do. And that's what they have did to him. I'm telling ya guys, common sense and God is what you need. And by the way, I USED TO BE DEMOCRAT. I have seen the light. Obama's version of "change" is only going to make our economy worse.

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169. At 01:07am on 12 Sep 2008, marely6 wrote:
You guys need to put your glasses on. She said "I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal." If you stopped being so judgemental, you might realize not all Californians are not that stupid!

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170. At 01:23am on 12 Sep 2008, jordanpeagler wrote:
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
171. At 01:33am on 12 Sep 2008, electronmancer wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
172. At 01:54am on 12 Sep 2008, Sheckerloo wrote:
I'm just confused as to what 9/11 has to do with Iraq. Do some people know that they're not related instances?

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173. At 02:12am on 12 Sep 2008, peaceluvdance wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
174. At 02:19am on 12 Sep 2008, henrystewb wrote:
Why is everyone (malaka57 etc) talking about the contradiction of her being a 'fiscal conservative and an economic liberal'

she said she was a "fiscal conservative and a social liberal" which makes complete sense

people should read the article properly first and the comments second

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175. At 02:20am on 12 Sep 2008, OldSouth wrote:
To quote that great anthem of the Beach Boys:

'I wish they all could be California girls!'

Glad to see you are enjoying your travels...

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176. At 02:39am on 12 Sep 2008, dlockuk wrote:
I agree with fiscally conservative and socially liberal. As a social liberal, you believe that all people are equal in society and, regardless of any personal prejudice, the system should allow people the same opportunity. As it relates to money I pay into this system (taxes), I expect it to be used very wisely and, if possible, I would like some returned. Unfortunately, the system in place now in America is a) controlled by corporate interests and b) consumed by a conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan that has obliterated the budget surplus we once had. I hope we find our way as a country soon and I hope we realize that the 'way' should be focused on the great "WORKING" middle class of this country and not the corporations that are reaping the benefits of the pro-capitalist American system whilst not paying their fair share.

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177. At 02:40am on 12 Sep 2008, ausw47ty wrote:
Thank goodness to all those who actually read what Jordan's comment was about being a social liberal. There is nothing in the least bit contradictory about being a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I beleive it is called the "third way" in politics!!

Perhaps if people acutally paid attention to what was being said rather than jumping to naive racial or gender stereotypes this world would be a much better place.

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178. At 03:04am on 12 Sep 2008, strangewurld1 wrote:
With people like Terri72 around, do we need more evidence of the pernicious effect of the conservative media? I'm glad he/she was able to straighten us all out on the real facts of Iraq, the Republican created debt (Terri - do your homework - the Republican administrations of the 20th-21st Centuries created almost all the debt), and how we all need (her/his) god to get us on the right track. And you wonder why the rest of the civilized world takes a dim view of us. No, we've had one zealot too many already enacting god's plan, we don't need anymore. Oh, and Terri, why don't you go find another country to storm - it's never too late for manifest destiny.

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179. At 03:06am on 12 Sep 2008, strangewurld1 wrote:
Oh, and for Jordan - just so you know, the lovely Mrs. Palin is no social liberal or moderate. I suggest you look beyond her 'style' whether it means persona, bearing, presence or whathave you.

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180. At 03:20am on 12 Sep 2008, cambones wrote:
Saddam Hussain didn't have anything to do with 9/11 is not the point.
He broke a dozen UN resolutions that put his dictatoship in grave danger after he attacked his neighbor Kuwait, unprovoked.
But how would I expect a liberal to have a memory that goes beyond yesterday.
Oh, without any nuclear facilities or weapons what was Saddam doing with 500 metric tons of YellowCake Uranium?

Jon Kellly, you are doing a good job so far. I have enjoyed your posts. Keep up the good work.

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181. At 04:16am on 12 Sep 2008, Goingright wrote:
What is wrong with liberals these days? A pretty girl makes a perfectly understandable comment and out comes the ugliness! I don't agree with Ms. Jordan Peagler but she certainly has a right to her opinion, and her opinion isn't lacking intelligence. And to bash the reporter for choosing her to interview, that is revealing. You can only interview people who agree with the liberal agenda I guess.

Liberals claim to be so open minded but they can't speak of Christians, or conservatives, without spitting. They believe in everyone being equal and speak of tolerance, except for conservative christians then they turn to hate-mongering, calling us ignorant, gullable, stupid, irrational, and the list goes on.

I have never read comments even from some of the more illmannered christians that are as rude and demeaning as those posted by liberals. I think we can at least give each other the basic respect that this country was founded on, and agree to disagree agreeably.

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182. At 04:21am on 12 Sep 2008, henrystewb wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
183. At 05:11am on 12 Sep 2008, tucsonmike wrote:
Post #2 Malaka57
"a fiscal conservative and an economic liberal," and she lost family on 9/11, so we should stay in Iraq. And she is a student? "

You got what she said wrong completely. She said a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. In other words, wanting a balanced budget and being liberal on social issues are not contradictory.
She said friends lost family members and she is correct. Leaving Iraq will be complicated.

Jon, I have to agree with your taste in women!;-) I hate to say it, though Jon. You misspelled "opposite."

58. At 3:45pm on 11 Sep 2008, misoramen wrote:

"America has demonstrated the problem with democracy - dumb and uneducated people have the same vote as everyone else."
Winston Churchill once said (and I am paraphrasing).democracy has its problems, but it is the best we have.

Maybe Jon could have chosen someone else, but if y'all read what the young lady said carefully, she stated her case quite succinctly and well.

Otherwise Venice Beach is a bit bizarre. Jon, when you start heading East, you will start seeing different things. Attend a Friday night High School Football game, especially when you get to Arizona. Maybe Bisbee will be playing Douglas (the oldest high school rivalry in the nation).

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184. At 06:52am on 12 Sep 2008, PaterPatriae wrote:
Is it just me or does the article say something completely different than what people on here are saying? She didn't link 9/11 and Iraq, she said she was a liberal on social issues. I have to believe the articles been changed but let me weigh in that if this is how the blog is going to be run then all we are going to learn are stereotypes.

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185. At 08:47am on 12 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#168. My best friend is Iraqi. He supports the invasion of Iraq for many reasons. So do I, not least because when I was soldier I had to sit through a 2 hour lecture on Halabja with full close ups of kids who'd coughed up their own lungs. Not nice at all.

However we didn't HAVE to go into Iraq and life would have been a lot easier for us (and our international standing better) if we'd dealt with Afghanistan properly first.

Anyone who has read TE Lawrence - as in 'of arabia's - 7 pillars of wisdom could have anticipated all the problems we are currently having in Iraq and planned the occupation rather than just the invasion. Sadly I suspect most of the pentagon have never heard of Lawrence, much less read his works. I have.

Perhaps you do better to read all my comments properly rather than judge me soley on 1 sentence.

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186. At 08:48am on 12 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
187. At 08:59am on 12 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#180 "But how would I expect a liberal to have a memory that goes beyond yesterday."

When Saddam invaded Kuwait Jordan was probably about 3 year old. Can you remember any major wars when you were 3? I was 13 and my father was out there as a medic with 51st Highland division.

Saddam almost certainly had the 500 tons of yellowcake (which given the amount of U235 found in crudue ore still probably isn't enough for one bomb) for his nuclear plant at Osirak which was destroyed by the Israelis in the mid-80's- before Jordan was even born.

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188. At 3:05pm on 12 Sep 2008, peejkerton wrote:
I wish the BBC would use proper blog etiquette and strike out things they correct and follow up with the correction, rather than just change it. It makes the commenters look like liars rather than the BBC look shoddy.

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189. At 3:31pm on 12 Sep 2008, Peter_Sym wrote:
#188. My comment pointing out that the original article was rewritten sometime yesterday (186) after I made my original comment has now been pulled too. Its like Stalin airbrushing out his enemies from photos as he made them 'disappear'!

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190. At 3:32pm on 12 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
There are two problems with modern liberals (at least in the US):

1) If you do not agree with them, you are either a racist, hatemonger, homophobe, sexist, idiot, religious zealot (nutcase to them), or just a rightwinger...with virtually no middle ground.

2) It isn't that liberals don't have a memory for a contradiction in the past...its that they don't care. Future results are all they care about, and who gets hurt (as long as it is not them) really doesn't matter. Simply look at all of the socialist/communist purges in the last 80+ years for the MILLIONS that have died and the MILLIONS that have been displaced or imprisoned. My wife grew up under the USSR and knows firsthand what it means.

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191. At 4:30pm on 12 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:
re post no 153, rvangen:

'Ok...let's play...'

No, I'd rather not, this is not a game. It's serious"

Also:

'...yes, actually she is VERY representative, or at least as much as one person can be representative of another.'

OmyGpd!

'Now...let's also put aside this "intelligent" argument .....'

This is the point at which further discussion becomes pointless. I shan't reply to any more rantings.

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192. At 4:48pm on 12 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
At 4:30pm on 12 Sep 2008, terraAthena wrote:

re post no 153, rvangen:

'Ok...let's play...'

No, I'd rather not, this is not a game. It's serious"

Also:

'...yes, actually she is VERY representative, or at least as much as one person can be representative of another.'

OmyGpd!

'Now...let's also put aside this "intelligent" argument .....'

This is the point at which further discussion becomes pointless. I shan't reply to any more rantings.

------------------

(shurg) whatever.

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193. At 5:04pm on 12 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
My apologies...I meant to add the following to the last reply:

Typical socialist/leftist response...why answer a question that disturbs you, or may reveak an "inconvenient truth"?

So...let's recap what questions that you found to be "ranting" and not worthy of a response:

1) what "experience" does Obama bring to the table that is a good indicator of his leadership potential on a national level? Let's set aside "political" experience for the moment. What does he bring?

(referring to your origninal comment: "... I do believe the Republicans are running a campaign based on personalities. They always have, and they are good at it. That is why they win - people don't scratch below the surface and look at what they are actually offering to do once in power. Anyone too intellingent (Kerry, Gore), loses out to this because seemingly the US voting behaviour is easy to manipulate, worshipping at the altar of the personality cult and celebrity. ...")
2) But, let's look at the personality cult...what exactly would you call the Obama campaign?? The Democrats selected someone much less intelligent and experienced because of the personality cult. Why not Hillary? She is FAR more qualified than Obama.

3) exactly what "change" are you talking about? Please be specific.

Honestly, I believe that you either:

1) cannot properly answer the questions due to a lack of understanding of the issues,

2) or, do not wish to answer because it will betray the underlying problems with not only your agenda, but also your candidate.

So...let me finish with the original feeling:

(shrug) whatever...

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194. At 5:05pm on 12 Sep 2008, rvanengen wrote:
(snicker) Looks like the blog was slow...I retyped the last because it didn't post it to the page when I refreshed...my apologies for essentially a double post! Editor: Please feel free to delete the "4:48pm on 12 Sep 2008, rvanengen" posting.

Thanks!

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195. At 11:07pm on 12 Sep 2008, caseyschenkofsky wrote:
Hey, you missed the story here, BBC bus riders. It is not the European American blonde from the south who is essentially a conservative, and who is a recent transplant to Venice. The deeper story has to do with how a place like Venice, which is historically a heavily polluted (thanks to oil drilling!) ghetto, has become an enclave for middle class whites and entertainment industry types who are happy to occupy one of the few beach side communities that used to accommodate the poor and communities of color. Having been born and bred in Venice, I saw the community change from bad to worse to unmentionable; and I'm not talking about drug dealing, I am talking about gentrification and social segregation. They even changed the name of the neighborhood I grew up in to improve its stature on the real estate market. So... why didn't you find an old school gang banger, or a longtime artist, or someone fishing at the pier, or an older property owner who actually knows Venice? If you're going to comment on the true nature of a community, at least try to Google your way through it before you randomly interview people on the street, otherwise you'll end up interviewing me when you reach Long Island and you will tag me as a typical LI'er, which I am obviously not. Please, please try harder!

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196. At 00:54am on 13 Sep 2008, eddienix wrote:
#163 - AnonymousCalifornian, if you care so much about Iraq, move there. Take Bush and McCain with you. Clearly they are more concerned about Iraq than the U.S. They both love Iraq so much the ran for president of the wrong country. And if you care so much about the Iraqi people, then good for you, you can go over there and tell them how to live. Nobody in the U.S. cared about Iraq until the right wing establishment in the U.S. made it its business to care about Iraq. Why? For reasons that have nothing to do with terrorism, that's why.

The Iraqi government now wants the U.S. to start leaving Iraq. They are now demanding a timetable for troops to leave. But the U.S. does not really want to leave or give a timetable. Rather suspicious. And to suggest Iraqis can't take care of themselves and that they will descend in to "anarchy" is an insult to Iraqis. This is a country that never had a history of "terrorism" or "anarchy," except perhaps when Iraqi insurgents fought hard against the British after WWI. Imagine if a military power invaded the U.S., unprovoked, and told us how and when to choose our leaders. We'd be trying to kill these invaders as much as possible, just as the Iraqi insurgents have tried to kill our troops.

And if the capitalist model (let's not kid ourselves, we're talking about capitalism, not democracy) is what the Iraqis need, then they don't need to look to the economic malaise and the imminent recessions of the U.S. or Europe. They have a much more intriguing growth model to look to in Dubai, Qatar and Abu Dhabi. These Arab kingdoms have booming economies. And they are economies planning for the post-oil reality of the future. Of course, if we left Iraq now, then the Iraqi government could turn out to be corrupt and hostile to the international community. In other words, it could turn out to be like our government. But we don't want to leave Iraq now and go to places we should be instead (like Afghanistan and perhaps Georgia). If we left Iraq now, we'd miss out on that oil and redevelopment action. The gool ole boys can't let that go, can they.

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197. At 01:19am on 13 Sep 2008, seashley wrote:
Why are so many people commenting on the phrase "fiscal conservative and economic liberal" when the blog actually reads "fiscal conservative and social liberal"?

Political opinions aside, you can't accuse someone of being a dumb blond if you don't read what they say.

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198. At 01:28am on 13 Sep 2008, eddienix wrote:
#195 casey

Hi Casey,

I live in Venice, though I was not born and raised here. I agree with most of what you are saying, except that Venice is not "middle class" anymore. It has gone way beyond middle class; all newcomers to Venice now are at least upper middle class to wealthy. Middle class people like me either bought a long time ago or we have rent control.

But I agree with you that the BBC bus write up on their stop in Venice is a bit of a missed opportunity. They missed out on how Venice is a an example of change in the U.S. and of California over the past 10-20 years. I can see how they missed out on it, however. On the surface these days it looks like just another trendy Southern California locale, though it was a very different place as recent as a decade ago. Their mission is to get the opinions of potential voters, even though the places they go have a history and make-up they often will miss. Maybe they aren't consulting much with locals to give them some background.

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199. At 03:10am on 13 Sep 2008, eddienix wrote:
#197 seashley

The blog used to read "economic liberal" and then they changed it to read "social liberal." I guess they mis-quoted her and corrected it, but they never noted the correction.

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200. At 09:53am on 13 Sep 2008, SydneySD-6 wrote:
#119 "perrumpo" thank you. I couldn't agree more. I am also an independent interested only in the issues and not the party affiliate. I consider myself open minded. I am having serious difficulty understanding the Palin's choice. Does McCain truly believe she is the right person or a means to the ultimate prize-Presidency. I personally do not see this pick fitting the "Country First" slogan!

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201. At 03:29am on 16 Sep 2008, weilrose wrote:
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202. At 10:17am on 17 Sep 2008, KLBrown wrote:
Is it not possible to get an opinion from an American without making them look completely daft and ignorant? Contrary to the usual protrayal of Americans in the UK, there do exist intelligent, educated, thoughtful people in the US. If you are truly interested in presenting a range of opinions, it would make for a refreshing change to interview people that don't make all Americans seem completely bonkers or stupid. If you are looking for opinions in Southern California, why not move out of LA and talk to people in the suburbs? I grew up in Southern California and now live in England, and I can't tell you how often I wince whenever a programme is shown here about the US - you can tell it's about the US because it will inevitably be accompanied by slide guitar or banjo music. You have an excellent opportunity to show how varied and interesting the American people are. Please do.

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203. At 6:03pm on 18 Sep 2008, avianterminus wrote:
Regardless of your views on Jordan and whether or not you agree with her, at least show some civility here. Moreover, with her being misquoted and represented a lot of you are shooting insults into the dark here.

@201: Good job clearing this up; while the journalistic integrity of this article may be in question, at least more of the picture is represented.

Insults and the internet go hand in hand it seems; keep on the issue and off the people, please.

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Hello, I’m Jon Kelly and this is my blog. I’m on the BBC election bus, travelling across the US asking where Americans want their country to go.

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