Ref row overshadows Wales deficiencies
- 11 Mar 07, 11:31 AM
The Roman amphitheatre, where through the ages one man has decided the fate of the combatants... and 2007 was no different.
In my opinion, Chris White got it wrong. He told Wales centre James Hook there were 10 seconds to go and time to take the line-out, but on the advice of Geoff Warren, the Television Match Official, he then declined to allow time for that line out to take place.
The conversation between Hook, White and Warren goes out on Scrum V programme on BBC Two Wales this evening (1710 GMT).
Now I usually scoff when a law geek quotes a rule at me, but this weekend I'm a geek too, and by my reading of the relevant rule, Wales were right to feel aggrieved.
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead…
Throw in a linesman who missed a blatant haymaker by Mauro Bergamasco on Stephen Jones and an obvious tackle off the ball - again by the long-haired terror - and Wales had little help from any of the officials.
But White's decision was not the difference between life and death, or even win and lose.
Had Wales opted to kick the penalty they would only have drawn. And even if they'd won the line out there is no guarantee Wales would have crossed the line for the try they desperately needed.
The deficiencies evident against Scotland and France were there again - Wales struggled for possession, managing just 40% in total, they kicked the ball away again in the second half and their penalty count against was higher than Italy's.
I don't like stats - I said that in my last blog. That little lot was for illustrative purposes!
The stat that counts stares at you from the bottom of the Six Nations table.
Gareth Jenkins: commander of the Armies of Wales; coach of a murdered rugby team. Will he have his vengeance next week?
You tell me. Is there anything to suggest Wales might 'click' against England?
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1 You have the best ball carrying scrum half in the northern hemisphere, your pack are not carrying the ball, but you refuse to play him (at all against Italy - limited against France).
When your fly half is not mentally fit to kick goals, but you still allow him back on (and when he has clearly failed - just look at the error count)
I could go on - but the coach is clearly at fault here, and his support. Its not good enough at international level to have ex players however good, who have not yet learnt how to coach (think of how long it has taken Dai Young).
Jenkins is another Waldren, trying to play a club game at international level, and being loyal to his old club players. The best thing that could happen is for Ruddock to come back on Monday, with Tylor and Young working with him to create something for the English match on which we can build, Jenkins is all passion, no intellect and pride seems to have persisted after the fall
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Common sense (if not the laws of the game) dictate that the line out following a penalty kick is part of the same play and as such the referee should allow it to be taken.
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Wales were hard done by. A number of decisions went against them. But having said all that , at best , they would only have sneaked a win on less than 50% possesion, against the minnows of Italy. One area that disturBs me is that I rarely see a welsh tackler knocking back the ball carrier in a tackle - and as a result Wales rarely gets turnover ball,- this is mARKED CONTRAST TO iRELAND AND eNGLAND AND, OF COURSE, THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE TEAMS. Why is this? The best we seem to be able to do is bring a ball carrier to ground eventually but usually for possessijon to be recycled or worse the ball passed before the ball carrier hits the ground.
I'm interestd in others' views.
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Quite simply Gareth Jenkins has got to get a game plan put in place that everyone understands. Using Ryan Jones as a solitary ball carrying option and throwing it wide without commiting the opposition to rucks and mauls or going through the phases is clearly not working.
In addition I would like to see Hook in for Stephen Jones at outside half and the additions of Alfie and Cockbain would be of great benefit to the side physically and mentally!
England are not that good either (he says confidently before they play against France)and I would like to think that introducing Hook at 10 might give us an edge.
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Of course Wales will "fire against England" next week. The same way Ireland did. Sadly for the Welsh thats all that really matters, "as long as we beat the English we don't care" .Sorry guys but beating us is no great shakes anymore is it, you need to be aiming higher than that!!Still, I don't doubt they will all be singing after the game, the four lost matches all forgotten as they revel in one desperate victory.
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Totally agree with the above. There were blunders from the officials but with 10 seconds left surely a bit of pragmatism should have come into play?
I'm all for the 'live by the sword' style of play but for once it would have been nice to use the English point grabbing mentality. It might not be pretty but neither is the 0 sitting by our name in the current standings.
White did get it horribly wrong and Bergamasco lived dangerously but it was the staunch Welsh pride in our enterprising style of play that's ironically left us with little to salvage from this tournament.
An overhaul of backroom staff or making players who've performed amicably over the last few seasons won't change anything, look at England, they're still in the doldrums.
The WRFU as well as the players can learn a lesson from this, and if they do, the state of Welsh rugby will be all the stronger for it.
Still, as long as we beat the English all is not lost eh?
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Its all well and good Chris White saying sorry but its too flaming late now!! He potentially cost us a win. We may not have necessarily scored but we would have had a great chance and because of some guy who is considered to be the best ref in the world we were denied that chance.
White is due to ref the Llanelli v Munster game in the heinikein cup and being a scarlets fan, after what he's done i don't think i want him anywhere near stradey.
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Mike Phillips is a great option and to not use him at all is criminal. The Scottish game cried out for him to come on and his different style would have helped again yesterday.
Dwayne Peel would be my number one but GJ has got to be careful not to favour the players he knows best (i.e Scarlets) at the cost to the team - Alfie could have come on for Mark Jones earlier and I have to agree that if SJ wasn't kickign at goal his general all round play didn't justify him staying on.
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I think you need to get over this. The ref is always right, even when he is wrong.
Move on.
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IRB Law 5.7 e
1)If time expires and the ball is not dead, or 2) an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead…
1) Time had expired and the ball WAS dead
2) The line out was not AWARDED, the penalty was.
Simple as that. Ref in this occasion was right
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I have to say that (although I am a Wales fan) the way shane Williams, Gareth Jenkins and Chris White dealt with the fall out of the final whistle, was of great credit to the ethos of rugby. There would be brawling in the tunnels, bars and changing rooms if it happened in football. A shocking decision, but what credit the game did itself in adversity.
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Hi, I think Chris White, whilst not my favourite referee, is being slightly hard done by and the fault lies with Geoff Warren (TMO). After listening again Warren gives White the wrong time, when there is only two seconds left he says there is 10, time then runs out before the kick. He only realises the error then and tries to correct himself whilst the lineout is forming and you can hear White say something to the effect of 'What, time has expired', but by then the mistake was too late to rectify. Technically the decision was right, but only because White and Wales were given the wrong info. The obvious solution is for an offical clock on the big screen or a 'hooter' to sound like in Rugby League.
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In reply to posts 5 & 6, I really don't think that there will be anything to celebrate after next Saturday, to be brutally honest! I want Wales to win, but I don't believe it'll happen.
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For all Stephen Jones' qualities as a 10; he has proven that he is not a leader and I think he should now step down as captain. He has proved beyond doubt that he has been one of the best fly half's over the last 5 years, only JW and Carter stand above him, but after the World Cup, Hook should play 10 so we can build a team around him.
Jenkins on the other hand clearly as a problem motivating his players, his best result since taking over has been a draw with Australia. Tactically he has been naive, and Wales will get nowhere with him. Unfortunately we should right off the world cup now, thankfully we have a reasonably easy group and think about finding a coach to replace him afterwards. For all the supposed talent there is in Wales, we have looked at best mediocre in the Six Nations. Italy deserved their win yesterday and Wales should stop blaming the referee; look what we did with the ball when were 20-13 up.
Perhaps, and this is only perhaps, the WRU actually got it right when they saw the deficiencies in Jenkins a few years ago when Ruddock was appointed. It has certainly been exposed as true now.
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Mario, 10, the ball is not dead if a penalty is awarded.
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Although very sympatheric to wales I have to agree with Mario. The ball was dead. Chris White did not award a line-out, Wales, who has their destiny in their own hands, opted to kick for touch having been warned theat they would have to be very quick.
there is a huge difference here. How many times have you seen a side awarded a penalty in a similar positon go for touch, miskick, or kick long - I would estimate at least three or four times a season in my case
Wales knew time was desperately short, the countdown clock was ticking and at a time when their seemd to be little leadership - Stepeh Jones was off - they were wanting White to take responsibility for the situation.
It was very unfortunate but I am not sure White has anything to apologise for. I do agree that all concerned handled the entire incident with a fiar bit of dignity and composure. I also reckon Wales are due a bit of luck and rub of the green and when that happens the results tend to happen, as has beent he case with the italians.
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Well played Italy! Deserved winners. Wales? I've given up.
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Ronan O' Gara choking incident:-
It might be my eysight but having watched the tv replays of the "incident" I thought it was John Hays arm that was aroung ROG's neck?
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It was a stupid decsion - and I'm talking about kicking for touch. If we'd have thrown the line-out, the chance of scoring was terrible.
Did Captin Crap make the decision or was it a rush of blood to the head for Hook?
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In my opinion, the referee had a horrible day. Not only did he fail to send off Troncon for a punch that put Stephen Jones off for the rest of the half, but he consistently ignored Italian defenders taking out Welsh attackers. Two incidents i can think of involved Shane Williams when he was cynically taken out.
The ending just typified what kind of game he had and ruined the match of decency. I really don't know what he was thinking, but he is experienced enough to not be pressured into making that decision on the back of the fourth official and reversing what he originally stated.
I can't wait for the England game, and at least the referee won't make the same mistake this time!!
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The ref got it wrong with regards to his decision making but if Wales knew the rule book they'd have discovered that once the ball goes dead its dead never mind it being a penalty. Three points were there for the taking; they decided to kick to touch and paid the price!
On another note, Mauro Bergamasco had a massive influence on the game. He scored Italy's winning try, tackled Shane Williams in the second half without the ball which would have surely been a try and had he been sent off for that disgusting punch on Stephen Jones maybe we'd have been looking at a different result?
How of earth the Ref and touch judges missed those incidents is beyond me! In International rugby incidents like that swing games and Wales paid the price. The amount of 'off the ball' incidents that went a miss were disgusting.
End of day, Wales didn't deserve to win. They had their chances and didn't take them. I think it's time for a big change before the world cup otherwise it'll be early exit time!
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#15
Hi Dai, you are right to say the ball is not dead if a penalty is warded but that's not the point. The ball got dead after the penalty was kicked(clock ticking...) but before the lineout was awarded. In other words the ball was out at 80:03 and the ref was not in a position to award a lineout. If the ball got out at 79:59 then yes, a lineout should have been played.
The ref is right. Unlike what the BBC article seems to suggest he didn't apologise for not applying the rules right, he probably apologised for the miscommunication with Wales players.
Anyway guys, we are talking about a lineout, not a disallowed try, and taking for granted they would have scored a try...a bit ambitious
I know how you feel, it was a bit unfortunate. Italy was lucky, ref was right and Wales lost the match when they decided not to go for the post.
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well what can i say i am a english fan but watching that wales game yesterday wales got robbed they asked the ref could they play for the try and the ref agreed to it they then kicked it in to touch and the ref blew the whistle .......how can the ref call that when they coulda kicked the penalty and took the draw ?
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When the welsh regional sides were first introduced Lyn Jones the Ospreys coach said that he could see Wales competeing or even beating the likes of New Zealand within the next 4 years because of this then, new setup.What's going on? If anything we are going backwards,GJ has failed in his step-up to international rugby .Therefore a change of coach and management is the only solution for Welsh rugby tobe able to move forward,I dread to think how Wales will perform in the World Cup!
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Wales lost a game they could have drawn and all this controversy over the ref wouldn't have happened and instead the debate should have been about tactics and whether we got it wrong in the use of our substitutions.Can anyone explain the logic of picking 5 forwards on the bench and hardly using Cocbain and Jonathan Thomas when it was clear that Popham, Alun Wyn and Ryan Jones were out on their legs having given everything against a very good Italian pack.Similarly why not play Mike Phillips in the last 20 minutes to physically bolster the Welsh side?
Can anyone really argue that the welsh eight would have won and driven over that last line-out for a try?Did I hear the first cuckoo of spring?
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BRING BACK RUDDOCK!!!!!!
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Personally whilst I think a change of coach is necessary in this instance,I really can't see it making a great deal of difference.There are simply not enough good players at present.Popham has been a stand out performer this season, but he is a very limited player,and it is difficult to see Wales competing at the top level until more good players emerge(or are drafted in from Australia or NZ).The regional system was meant to address this, but as long as the regions continue to utilise foreign players it's simply not going to happen.
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It is wrong that the referee can tell wales there's ten seconds left and let them go for the lineout, only to blow up for full time when the ball goes dead. He must have known their intention when they asked how long was left, so even if time then expired he must honour the lineout. Having said this, Italy deserved their win and a draw wouldn't have suited either side, so it was a good result for rugby.
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I dont know why Wales feel so hard done by. Even if the line out had been taken who's to say they would have scored. Italy were the far better side and could have defended well enough to clear their lines.
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I dont know why Wales feel so hard done by. Even if the line out had been taken who's to say they would have scored. Italy were the far better side and could have defended well enough to clear their lines.
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That decision was completely wrong, they should have been given the time to take the kick and throw the line without having to worry for time.
time should only be run when the ball is in feild and when the game is running, not when penalties are being decided upon and line-outs being anticipated.
I still give credit to a great Italy team though
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We was robbed!
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We was robbed!
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bottom line is that wales arent good enough. Frankly i agree with some of the comments. Jenkins is out of his depth on the international stage. He constantly makes bad decisions with his selection and tactics. Sadly ive lost all faith in him to do the job!!. my opinion get rid of gareth thomas and jenkins and bring back mike ruddock and for gods sake put stephen jones on the bench until he returns to form!!
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We was robbed!
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i'm an england fan and i was utterly disgusted by the referee's decision yesterday to finish the game,when the welsh had specifically asked the time and had been told they yes they had time for the lineout-otherwise they wouldn't have gone for it!the referee apologied but i feel wales were punished for a terrible decision!
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I am sad to see the video ref decide the final whistle on a blatant misunderstanding of the law's.
There has been alot of interpretation of law's ever since Rugby has been played, but this was a total shock to all rugby players and supporters.
Please can some one explain how this decesion came about.
By the way I am not a sore loser I am a person who would like to understand.
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Please... Somebody please... just get rid of the coaching and tactical staff for Wales. Don't they realise that this is the most disasterous period since Ruddock left? What the hell is happening? Get Mike Ruddock back, and let the confidence and pride flow back into the side that was only two years ago seen as a threat, now they are a joke. Welcome back to the 1990's.
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I was so livid yesterday at Chris White's decision that I jumped out of my chair and punched the wall - resulting in a probable broken thumb.
In accordance with the law HE WAS WRONG.
The lineout should have been played.
Thats not to say Wales would have scored, however, they should have been given the chance.
I am a very proud Welshman, but we simply should have won the game in the previous 79 mins.
FAIR PLAY to Italy, they played to their strengths, and also to Chris White for having the brass balls to stand up and apologise for his mistake. Even though I feel it was the TV match official who should carry the can!
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Firstly i would like to say that that was a bad call by the ref. The 4th official should not be making decisions that determine penalties, they are only there to aid decisions. What would be the point in having a referee if the 4th official made the decisions for them?? Back to the original statement...
If the referee has awarded the penalty then it should go ahead no matter what. After hearing the playback of the referees decision it seems clear that the penalty was definately awarded! If it wasn't supposed to be awarded how come the whistle was never blown straight away after the ball was kicked into touch? either Chris White had misheard the '4th Official' TELLING him what course of action to take or he couldn't make up his own mind about a game he was in charge of refereeing.
Gareth Thomas was told that the penalty should go ahead hence the reason Hook had kicked in the first place! and in my opinion it should have done. If there was 10 seconds of play left, Hook had kicked the ball out with a few seconds to spare which SHOULD have been used due to the ball not being dead in the game!
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Why does the commentator Brian have to be so offensive? There is absolutely no need for sarcasm when a French player is injured ("Oh shame") or for comments like an England player was unlucky to be caught in a rule break resulting in a penalty to France. Does the BBC not have a duty to at least have the appearance of fair commentary? His commentary throughout the Six Nations has been offensive, biased, partial and uninformative. Please can we have a properly trained commentator.
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Robbed, of a line out, maybe. The real question is what's the best Welsh team and when will the coach realise his job is to find and pick the best team and let them get on with it, not spending his time 'sussing out' the strengths of the opposition and trying to pick teams based on who the opposition are - from picking Sonny for the NZ match onwards. We could have had Jones, Hook and Henson on the pitch to give NZ something to think about, but no we pick a team to play their strengths . . . Lets pick a form first XV then a form captain
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As an englishman living in Wales I was disgusted at the inept way both the referee and the fourth official dealt with the closing seconds of the game, as the penalty formed two parts when the Welsh elected to go for the win, their courage should have been rewarded by at least allowing the line out to take place. In a time when coaches and players are subject to being replaced when their performance is lacking, this group of officials should not see service in the international scene for sometime to come. It would be nice to hear a more outspoken view from the BBC pundits, but then I guess they have their contracts to consider.
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Does anyone know if the lovely Sonia Mcloughlin is married? Her left hand seems to be permanently obstructed by her interview notes.
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Why as a licence payer must we be forced to listen to biased commentary from Brain Moore who actually detracts from the spectacle of the game by his one-sided view.
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End of Day, all anyone will remember is the Big W by Italy, a win's a win, and wales may not have deserved to win... but they did deserve the chance. Its all well and good the referee apologising to the players and coaching staff, but what about the fans? Especially the thousands of Welsh fans who travelled to Rome. They went to see Wales have a chance at winning, and in the dying seconds, were robbed of that chance. It's all well and good JD sayin the ref is the best in the world who made a mistake at the end (and I realise he's constrained with what he is able to say as a 'neutral' by the bbc) but I do recall JD also complaining during the game about "what the Referee was looking at?" when Italy's winning try scorer Bergamasco blatently punched Stephen Jones... although they may have actually scored anyway, as far as Im concerned the try scorer shouldn't even have been on the pitch!! Whether a possible draw or a possible win, we were all robbed of the chance of finding out what the true result of that match should have been by some shocking refereeing decisions. Maybe Italy would have won anyway, maybe if they'd taken the shot at goal they'd have missed, maybe if allowed the lineout wales wouldn't have scored.. we all know the lineout isnt great and Italy had defended well... but they shld have been allowed the chance.
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Here we go again............another welsh bitchfest !
In reality there had been 79 mins 50 seconds to win the game and we weren't up to it, so get over it !
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Lets get this straight, Wales were poor, as they have been continually under this coach. He says that he does not select Colin Charvis because he is trying to get a young side ready for the world cup, but then when things go pear-shaped he says that he will settle for any win. So why not select Charvis, i.e. select the player in form. As for Chris white and his officials, how can White stand 6ft from Troncom as he stamps on a Welsh leg and take no action. I guarantee that if it had been a Welsh player he would have reversed his decision. The failure by White and his touch judges to spot the assault on Jones was disgraceful. Jones had the ball, so what were they looking at? Chris White should go as fast as possible to the side lines, he bottled out of the decisions that professional referees need to make, and he should go.
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Can't be denied that Italy have improved and strength to thier arm for that but several appalling incidents can not be ignored. In particular Maoro Bergamascos Cynical Punch on Stephen Jones needing four stitches for which Bergamasco should be 'cited', and an earlier Off the Ball stamping. It's all very well to say that such objections from Wales' supporters represents sour grapes but a defeat can be accepted if the game was officiated fairly.
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As an Englishman who also won a few quid as the result of the Italian victory, I nevertheless think that Wales have every reason to feel aggrieved. Chris White should not have changed his mind after allowing Wales to kick for touch, irrespective of what was said to him in his earpiece.
An Italian win was the "dream result" for the IRB (who are trying to promote rugby in Italy). Which begs the question - did the IRB suits intervene to end the match?
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Oh my gosh, what was in my opinion a nasty but deliberate swinging arm is now being called a 'blatant haymaker'?!?! Give me a break. I think Wales should be frustrated by that decision but to be honest i dont think they would have scored anyway - they created very little in the game.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion about when a penalty is awarded. Quite rightly, the laws of the game state that the game can't finish on a penalty. But when you kick to touch, you've taken the penalty. The ball is 'dead' for a lineout, and the referee can blow the whistle if time is up. Think of it if things were the other way around - Wales are 2 points up, Italy have just infringed offside in the Welsh 22, and James Hook has the ball in his hands - he kicks to touch, the Welsh players celebrate because the game is over. How would you feel in that situation if the ref insisted that the lineout was taken, Italy steal the ball and Pez drops a goal for victory?
If you kick to touch from a penalty, that's your choice, but the lineout is *not* part of the penalty.
I thought it was an odd decision to kick to the corner anyway - the Welsh pack had never really looked like driving over all game - if they wanted to go for the win, the tap and go or set move would have been a better option - Wales are at their best when they play a fluid game combinig powerfulforward play with excellent hands and elusive backs. Why kick to the corner and play to the Italian strength? And if you are going to kick to the corner, for heaven's sake get the lineout formed quickly so that the time issue doesn't come into it?!
Having said all that, I think whilst Chris White was technically correct (it isn't his job to tell Wales what decisions to make, and he was clearly misled by the TMO on how long was actually left) ... BUT as the sole arbiter of fact etc on the field, he could have taken a common sense decision and said "sorry Geoff, you told me 10 seconds, and they made the decision on that basis, so I'm going to allow this final passage of play from this lineout." That would have been a common sense approach - but equally it would have been a huge call to go against the person who is basically the official timekeeper. I agree with the idea of the hooter (as used in Super 14), although in this match I don't think it would have made any difference, since it would have sounded as Hook was kicking into touch anyway.
Looking forward to Eng v Wal next week - after all three matches today I think both sides will be fired up with a lot to prove.
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Jenkins and his amateur team of yes men must go now. The decision making is absolutely baffling. We kicked the ball away 25 times against Italy. Ireland only kicked 15 times against Scotland and they have a top class kicker in OGara. I watched the Grand Slam DVD yesterday morning-same players but such a different team. Ruddock to return before it's too late!
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Now, listen. I undestand that the referee's decision was abrupt to the Welsh. But thet weren't just quick enough. Moreover: shocking how they could hope to win with a late lineout after such a faulty performance throughout the match. See here:
Minutes in possession
ITALY WALES
11:59 First half 10:10
15:48 Second half 07:42
Minutes in opponent's half
24:31 First half 18:22
29:02 Second half 15:29
END OF THE STORY.
Poor BBC, you are a bad liar.
Forza Azzurri.
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What a lot of hot air! Guys - look at the table .. about the only crumb of comfort you have this eason is that there was a bit of a c*ck-up at the end of this game .. what about the other three games then? and the first 79 minutes and 50 seconds of this one??
BTW, you're gonna get tonked next week too!
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Irrespectiive of playing pretty, refereeing decisions, etc,
WINNING IS EVERYTHING.
(Provided it is done within the laws and spirit of the game)
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stephens jones's cut eye was caused by Ian Goughs elbow. I did not think it was a punch at the time. JD should apologise to M Berg.
Play should have continued for the line out -thats the rules of the game
I don't want a 'hooter'.
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O.K. White allows the line out, wales win the line out tidily for the first time, and drive over and score. Hook slots the conversion. Bergamasco is cited and banned.........Where would that leave wales?
The best running rugby players in the world have lost their direction and a loss to Italy is more likely to lead to remedial action than a late win. Just why did ruddock go? I have never understood that. Peel, Phillips, Thomas, Williams, Morgan, Henson are all World class. Hook has something special. Why aren't they running out there and making things happen?
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stick James Hook as number 10 i say because he rules at it and he is da best c'mon James Hookie oof he's da best ever xx love Jessica
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Italy got a win they thoroughly deserved! After yet another inept performance from an outplayed Wales team everyone seems to be covering up by blaming the ref. Yes he made some mistakes but show me a ref that doesn't!
We should concentrate more on why a team that wins a Grand Slam in 2005 suddenly can't win a game 2 years later. The only real change has been the replacement of the coaching staff. Gareth Jenkins has taken Wales backwards from a team playing with style and panache to a team that doesn't seem to have any direction. Ruddock must be laughing his socks off!
Do the decent thing Jenkins resign now!
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Robbed of 7 seconds?
Oh, dear. Do you really believe in miracles?
Wales will have 80 min next week to prove what they might have been capable of. And I hope you do ;-).
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If you listen to the Welsh player Chris White speaks to, he asks if they could it to touch NOT if, after they had kicked it to touch, they would have time for the lineout.
White said yes to the question because it's not his job to decide Welsh tactics (and also because he is pedantic).
Personally I think there was a little naivety from Wales - did they think that they could really make the decision, kick to touch, choose their move, set up and then begin in ten seconds?
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What a lot of fuss over nothing.Were we guaranteed a converted try from the lineout? NO.Were we guaranteed a draw to save our blushes? YES!The players lost the game for us not the ref.Jones to go now,Alfie back as no1.Martyn Williams is the only one who can hold is head up high after 4 losses.15 hearts like his and we could be world beaters.
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If he didnt actually cause the cut, the punch was still aimed and landed. End of story. Watch the replay. Slow motion or not it was clear. The Scrum V team have also just agreed. The intent was there, whether it caused a cut or not, the rules are clear.
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Re post 45. I agree Brian Moore is a bit biased, but he is not any worse than the ridiculous "is it a penalty try?" Eddie Butler sat next to him is he?
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Emma Post 40.
I think you're a little bit confused. There isn't any debate over the fact that a penalty was awarded or that it was taken. However once it has been kicked the penalty is over...it doesn't continue to the lineout.
Any debate is over a different issue.
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It is all very well complaining about Chris White but the problem and decision lies with the fourth official.
Chris White was also very poorly assisted by the touch judges.
The problem with touch judges has been evident in most games this season. They give no real assistance.
Props causing problems on the refereee's blind side collapsing scrums, barging and pushing in the line outs and off the ball incidents never seem to be pointed out.
These offenders should be taken off the international list and sent on refresher courses.
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I am sorry for Welsh supporters but I think that the team who had the strongest will to fight won in the end.
Very impressed by the way the controversial ref decision was accepted with a lot of self control by the Welsh players.
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Wales was hard done by the officials?
What a pty, to the Italians "minnows" this situation is not new, we pay for the sin of trying to get into the RU elite.
If Wales had drawn or worse won in Rome would have been daylight robbery.
Welsh rugby is like the Roman forum: history.
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Coupla things.
Ben giocato l'Italia.
Surely the important thing at the end was that the 80 minutes were very clearly up before Hook kicked the ball? If he'd gone ahead and taken a tap penalty or even kicked into touch right away Wales would have been able to play till the next stoppage.
You can't stop the clock between infringement and kick - it's not practical, apart from the fact that each game would take about two days, what would you do when playing advantage, wind the clock back? Impossible.
I agree that Bergamasco went in with a straight arm, which he must not do, but the TV pictures appeared very clear and he didn't seem to make any solid contact and certainly not with Jones's right eye - any contact was on the left side of Jones's head or face.
While all you Welsh are bleating, what about the move that had Italy on for a try down the left and were brought back for a knock on that actually came off a Welsh hand? Dont see any mention of that.
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Re 65: Admittedly Eddie Butler is also biased but has the general appearance of impartiality for the majority of the game. Brian Moore is just constantly and consistently offensive.
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It reminds me of the Kevin Keegan situation in football, he went quietly. Please Gareth do the same you are out of your depth. Go Quietly.
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I think GJ should go back to what he knows best - Llanelli. Get someone in who knows international rugby - welsh or not i don't care. Wales need a coach who is going to read the international game better, and actually select the best team for the job, not just hope his old scarlet mates will come through for him in the end
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england have two areas to improve. One, we are with out exception penalised for any infringement
Also we are not professional enough, at the restart for example, all sides get at least three men in front of the catcher so there is no way the opposistion can get to the catcher, I think this is cheating, and I assume we do not do this because we would be penalised.
In conclusion, I thing England are a generally poor side, and with the ref against us generally, we have no chance of winning anything what so ever.
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Terrific to see the sportsmanship particularly from Shane Williams after the last minute confusion over the lne out, but, full marks to Chris White for owning up and apologising straight away. I refereed a children's tag rugby festival all day Friday donw her in Devon and with the faster matches (all for 5 minutes - children under 11) the play goes so quickly the concentratrion levels are huge - the chance to make mistakes are massive! And, decisdions have to made in an instant - I reversed one decision on Friday after a try had been awarded when I noticed that the lad's tags weren't showing, so no one could have technically tackled him - keen to ensure fair play - but always concerned that you have done the right thing!
Anyway, Wales need to keep the ball in hand - that way they scare the pants off people - every time Shane Williams gets the ball he looks a threat - Morgan loves to run with it - ditto Dwayne and Gavin - that's the way the Welsh must play -it's how they won that Slam 2 years ago! Too many time against France they kicked it back to them - they needed to keep it in hand and put it through some hands and get running.
Agree that Hook needs to come in now as No 10, Gavin needs to be no 12 and Alfie anywhere.....Popham has been fantastic - roving all around the park - we can win next week and wouldn't that be a lovely end to a disappointing year?
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Mario 10 os spot on. A penalty may result in a kick to touch, quick tap, kick at goal or scrum. all of the above except kicking to touch are considered the same passage of play.
the ball leaves the pitch with a kick to touch and the resulting lineout is a new passage of play. why do you think referees tell teams they do not have time for lineouts?
Plus he was talking to the TMO in reference to 10 seconds left, not only was the penalty awarded at 79;46, it also took hook a decade to decide and kick the ball into touch plus an age for your forwards to get there! and who would have a fiver on you scoring, some italian would have collasped it anyway
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The main problem for Wales is with the forwards. They are virtually static. Wales are still very dangerous when the backs get hold of the ball ( as proved against France), but after watching the way Italy's pack denied them any possession I feel England's own forwards will have little to fear. In fact they are probably rubbing their hands with glee. I predict at least 20 points......
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Gareth Lewis´comments are spot on for the Rome match. The game is all about possession - Wales have never had 50% of the possession in this 6N and the result has been 4 losses. Having said that they have been in touch in all the matches so far and defended well. This for me means that we have a match winning team once we get parity in terms of possession. The next game is in Cardiff with 80.000 supporters. This I think will give us the boost up front to hold on to our ball and put in place our game plan. So despite everything we have seen so far I think we will win against England. But don´t quote me on that!
This would reflect how evenly matched the teams are this 6 nations.
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There is no guarantee that Wales would have scored a try from the lineout but at least we would have been able to give it a go. Apart from the obvious, having watched the video again today what upsets me most is that the TMO, Geoff Warren can be clearly heard telling Chris White that there were 10 seconds left - I timed from that point and the ball enters touch 7.5 seconds after this statement - pedantic maybe but if I had my way Geoff Warren would be strapped naked to one of the posts at the Millennium Stadium and publically flogged.
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you make your own luck we have been dire under GJ, we appear to have no game plan, we make the same mistakes game in game out our set piece is little short of a joke as is our back room staff
the summer tour to oz should be a barrell of laughs :(
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Granted some of GJ's selection decisions are somewhat suspect, Charvis MUST be selected at the expense of Ryan Jones - his form is still not up to the level attained with the lions, and either SJ loses the captaincy or his position - simple as.
On a different tack I have major concerns over the management running the Welsh game. Pickering serves no purpose other than preening himself constantly to make sure his next picture with royalty gets his best side. There's no disputing that Ruddock was a good coach, he also had VERY good support from a rugby empressario (Mr. Moffett) who faught all concerned to make sure Welsh rugby was on the right footing before moving on. Pickering seems intent on making sure nobody upsets the (and his) gravy train that is Welsh Rugby. Lose him or you can kiss goodbye to future successes.
Ruddock resigned reportedly as a result of player power, I'm sure this would not have happened if Moffett was still on the scene. GJ needs support & time if he is to succeed. You don't become a bad coach overnight and his success with Llanelli is well documented
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have to disagree with Nick Wills. If Troncon had been sent off for punching Stephen Jones, THAT would have been a travesty! Bergamasco should have been sent off (hopefully he will be cited and receive punishment eventually) but what on earth was the touch judge doing?
Its no good us Welsh wailing about the result - Italy won and that's all that will be remembered but Wales have got to look at what has gone wrong since Ruddock left. I've been offered my first ever ticket for a Wales-England game and I'm not sure I want to go after watching this 6 nations so far......
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I have to disagree with Turner comment 27. I think the Welsh team has plenty of good players and the new regional team set up is bearing fruits for the game in Wales. There is plenty of healthy competition for places. Unfortunately at the national team level as a unit the front five has failed to give the platform needed to implement the Welsh gameplan.It all about possession and the front 5 need to deliver that to the rest of the team.
Gareth Jenkins is right to keep faith with the team and I understand his selection thinking - apart from Stephen jones given his poor form throughout the tournament but that is more of a political cock up in terms of picking Jones to captain wales thru the world cup.
He is still a good coach and should lead us thru the world cup tournament. Then we can judge him.
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Why does a team that cannot win the ball keep kicking it back to their opponents. This seems to be the main tactic adopted by Wales since Jenkins took over, and its cost us. The sad part for me is that Wales have lost four games this year, but could have one all four if they'd taken their chances or been more streetwise. Lets be honest though this is the poorest six nations we've seen in years, and if you ask me not one of the six teams have a hope in hell of challenging the All Blacks in RWC.
PS. Now that England have beaten France does John Inverdale think they are favorates for RWC.
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Jones's injury was caused by a clash of heads a moment before he got punched on the top of his shoulder. Possibly a penalty for a straight arm tackle, but no more. The end was dubious, but why were Wales thinking they could score in two seconds after how they had played. Its always easy to blame the officials (who do not have the benefit of multi angle replays, are operating at the same height as the players, and are human and can sometimes be unsighted) but Wales were dire, and have been all championship. Deal with it guys and stop whining.
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Re the last part of the Welsh/Italy match. If you are told you only have 10 seconds left, and you decide to kick for touch, how do you expect to get the play off ? It was a brainless decision. If you don't want a draw,why not take a scrum, or even a tap penalty, maul, keep the phases going, whatever - whistle can't go till an infringement or the ball is kicked out. It's a change, too, to hear other countries complaining about being robbed. English fans have repeatedly been told, quite unpleasantly, to 'live with it, you lost', after far more justifiable complaints than in this match !
I don't know about Brian Moore, we get our commentary from RTE, and you have never heard a more patronising, uninformed load of rubbish comments about how useless England were - must have been a real pain to see them win - I'm only sorry Ireland may win the championship now because of it ! So, come on Scotland, Italy and ,oh, yes, England next week. Now that would be funny !!
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Obviously there was a reason the WRU didn't give the coaching job to Gareth Jenkins first time around. Mike Ruddock was quite righty chozen. Since Ruddock has left the team seems to have lost it's fire. The heart seems to have been ripped out of the game. I went to see Mumbles play a very good Newcastle Emlyn team this week in Carmarthen. Mumbles absolutly smashed Newcastle Emlyn. The forwards were agressive, the backs were clinical and the hwyl in the team was outstanding. Communication was excellent and the whole team wanted to play for each other. I congratulate Mike Ruddock on another success and I can see Mumbles RFC going further. Please can we bring this Hwyl back in the Welsh XV.
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So Chris White offers an apology for a "Misunderstanding".
Unacceptable!
Such an apology is worthless and provides no satisfaction.
"Mistake" or "incompetence" are probably words he needed to use.
Such a basic error should not be tolerated in an International referee.
We should all demand his resignation.
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Even though I live in England I love my Welsh sport and can be one eyed in how I watch Welsh games. But sitting down and reflecting on the Welsh performances this season, we seem to have changed the way we play the game. I cannot not see what our game plan is. How many times did our wingers ever have a one on one situation. These classy backs have not become bad players they still are class, Williams, Jones, Shanklin, Morgan, Peel. How many times did we kick high balls to the Italians to make a mistake. Class side just don't do this.
We must look at our lack of class on the coaching side, Jenkins, Phillips,Davies and McBride. Three of these from one club Llanelli and Phillips not so long ago was a joker on the Jonathan Davies tele programme in the evening! Thats great research for a national coach. Does the WRU not learn from the Neath-Waldron days. Our selection on the coaching side has been insular. If these guys get fired in the next year or two what club sides in Britain will be fighting over them. I ask the WRU to be honest with themselves and bring in some international experience into the coaching side, at least bring in someone who has recent experience from working outside Wales who can add a different opinion.
And one last thought, Llanelli under Jenkins, were a hard working side, not classy in which in the main relied upon the battering runs of Scott Quinnell. We can do better, we have some good and some great players and the others are hard working players who I'm sure want to learn, I beg the WRU find someone to assist our limited coaching staff.
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If time was short why risk the lineout anyway, surely a tap and go gets the game going quicker avaoids risking losing the line out. Have I missed a flaw in this idea?
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Forget the incident at the final whistle, that is overshadowing a thoroughly biased performance from a guy I consider to be the best in the world. What his reasons are I don't know but one feels the fact that the Italian public have finally started to notice Rugby Union after the win over Scotland has something to do with it. It seems someone upstairs has an agenda and it's usually about making money. Even the 70/30 decisions didn't go in Wales' favour all game. White and his touch judges missed any number of foul play infringements from the Italians, dealt with the scrums in a totally 2 faced manner. If Wales did something wrong (and sometimes when they didn't) it was penalty or free kick to Italy. When Italy did something wrong (which considering the Italian tight head dropped to the floor in pretty much every scrum in the first half, was fairly often) the referee chose to re-set. He allowed Italy far more leeway at the breakdown, the culmination of which was that Wales stopped trying to turn over ball at all. I could go on but there doesn't seem much point.
I may give up watching Rugby all together as I'm firmly of the opinion that most games at top level Heineken Cup and 6N in particular, are fixed. Rugby is after all a business... In this Welsh fans are their own worst enemy. We'll sell out 72,000 to watch us play Fiji when we're on a run of 10 defeats. Win, Lose, Draw it doesn't matter, the welsh fans will turn out so hey, what does it matter? The bottom line's all the same for the accountants.
On the bright side, this result should guarantee Italy sold out games for a few years.
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why are we playing six nations rugby at the same time as top of the table premier league.the football league take a week off, rugby is more physical and we are supposed to be more intelligent.Also how would you like to be a leicester supporter paying £5-600 for a season ticket to watch reserve rugby. lets get back to the five nations set up and each premier team having only two overseas players
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mario Post 10 has it right. The instant the penalty kick was taken, the clock started ticking. The lineout was NOT AWARDED. Furthermore, the referee must NOT give tactical advice to one side or the other. Chris white answered the question "do we hav time to kick to touch". The answer was clearly yes If he had said anything remotely resembling "I'd kick for goal" he would have compromised his impartiality. The welsh team made a tactical error and want to blame the ref.
The debate about whether or not Wales might have scored from the lineout is a separate issue. Chris White should not be criticised, his decison was correct
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Would Wales have scored from that last lineout? i doubt it very much. I wish everyone would stop moaning, we weren't good enough.
Gareth Jenkins has been a step back for Wales, its really not working with him.
Wales really do not seem to know what their doing on the pitch.
Wheres the sexy rugby gone?
Getting rid of Ruddock was a huge mistake.
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As annoyed as many Welsh fans were at the time of the "misundertanding" by Chris White! I quickly realised that we didn't lose that game on Chris Whyte and James Hook's lack of communication and that we care simply not good enough at the moment to beat even the likes of Italy. With all due respect to Italy who are a very tough proposition at home we should be beating them on a regular basis! The reason for our slump I'm afraid is Gareth Jenkins in saying this I hope more than anyone that he turns it around. He is to stubborn in selection, not proactive or active even wih regards to tactics, poor motivator, poor selector with both coaching and playing personel! No one has mentioned this previously to my knowledege but does everyone remember the Stephen Jones before he went to France under the guidance of Gareth Jenkins - he was playing like he is for Wales now under the guidance of Jenkins. However, under different leadership and managers he prospers such as his time in Clermont, under Mike Ruddock and under Phil Davies (my man to lead Wales if Gareth Jenkins loses to England!) This goes for many of the Welsh players!
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On a separate but related note I have often wondered why the obsession with kicking penalties to touch to a lineout as opposed to taking a tap penalty. The lineout option gives the opposition the chance to win/disrupt the ball - especially when your line out is as weak as Wales'. The tap penalty retains possession and teams have the whole width of the pitch to use, giving them a lot of options. Can anyone shed any light on this? When did you last see a tap penalty near the line? I used to score loads of tries from them when I played.
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Am I the only one who thinks that whining little welshman Johnathon Davies should be sacked from television? People talk about Brian Moore being biased and I'll admit he is at times but Davies will very rarely say something good about an opposing team to Wales and when he does it lasts about 30 seconds. What about Robertson's try? 1 replay and a 'good try, well taken.' Tom Shanklin's tackle on the italian 13? Replay after replay and about 5 minutes of talking about it. If there was one, i think Davies would have given it a prize for being tackle of the century!!! It's mad!!!
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Everyone is pointing the accusing finger at everyone. But in fact it is a classic case of "grasp all, lose all". If Wales had been less greedy, they would have gone for the draw.
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The referee deferred to the REPLAY ref to end the match, Is there any way the replay ref could have brought the punch offence to his attention and prompted a ruling against the Italian player. The punch and its concealment were deliberate even if it didnt cause he cut eye. He went on to commit another offence against Shane Williams and score the winning try. It's no punishment for him to be suspended from future games. He should have been out from this game twice.
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After the match against Scotland, the coach 'jenkins' was being interviewed by the B.B.C..The background for this interview was very prophetic; it carried the words "RESIGNATION" (RBS6NATION).Perhaps mr.jenkins should take note.
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frankly white was no worse than half the referees who turn out at premiership matches every weekend. they are truly shocking and appalling in their arrogance and abject and pathetic applicaiton of the rules. i watched quins vs wasps on saturday and mark fox was truly awful and lost quins the game. he singularly failed to pull up a number of incidents in the 1st half and then wondered why 2 players were stretchered of in the 2nd! why are they allowed to get away with it? what with debney who is a truly appalling referee who is allowed to ref matches every week when he would be kicked off any school boy pitch for his lack of ability - what is going on with the IRB and the RFU? O'Brien is frankly crap for allowing such bad behaviour!!! i had lunch the other day with an ex-international ref who cannot bear to watch a game for the behaviour of the refs. arrogant, opinionated, desparate to be the star...lets get back to basics and get decent fellas who want a game insted of twats who want the limelight like white!
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btw why did white say at the end of the 1st half we have called a line out and we will play on and at the end of the 2nd half he refused to do so? yet another referee with dfouble standards and singularly failing to apply fair standards to both sides? what a surprise?
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Chris White was clearly asked by James Hook, was there time to take the line out, he said yes, from that point on, the lineout should have been awarded. Indeed in the first half, a lineout, was continued with after time had elapsed, and that also happened at the end of the England France games with a scrum.
The video referee confirmed there were 10 seconds left with 1 second left, and then said time was up 1 second later, Surely this cannot be right. I get the feeling that Chris White wanted the lineout to be continued with, and felt agrieved at the time. This should be cleared up so it never happens again.
As for the rest of the game, the current coaching setup IMO is not good enough, and this should be reconsidered after the world cup.
There also seems little chance of Ruddock returning to Wales,there are strong rumours, that he will be jonging the Ospreys as head coach in the summer, when his current existing contract with the WRU runs out in the summer.
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I believe the ref was right, the welsh just looking for someone else to blame for their own incompitence. if you cant beat italy in 79 mins and 50 seconds your not going to beat them in 10 seconds.
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in reply to 103, because he hadnt called a lineout?
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Can I just make the point that to the best of my knowledge the clock on the TV screen is not the official time, and is provided as a guide (with someone stopping and starting it on the referee's call of time off/time on). Therefore it's bound to be a couple of seconds out of sync with the referee's clock (or TMO's in this case) at the end of a half. Take Wales Vs. France 2005. The clock was over a minute out in that case. Other times I've seen a few seconds between time off being called and the clock actually stopped and even the clock going back in time (presumably someone trying to correct it a bit).
The only official clock would be the one the referee designates as such (in this case, the TMO's clock).
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In whose opinion is Chris White the best ref in the world? He shies away from ever issuing a yellow card or heaven forbid a red. He ignores feeding of the scrum, bringing down of the maul, offsides in the ruck and countless other errors. If that's the best, then rugby is in poorer shape than we thought...
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Say what you see!!
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Listen Mr B Moore and fellow members of the HSB (HEAD in the SAND BRIGADE) England's A game is 8pts better than France's B game WOW!! France are still a far superior side, as are NZ,AUS,SA,IRE and oh yeah ARGENTINA!!!!!!!!
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As a scarlets fan since birth, I hate to say this, but Gareth Jenkins must go.
He's acheived the rugby equivalent of turning a silk purse into a sow's ear!
Stephen Jones must step down as captain, and we better start working our socks of before the world cup!
At this rate, we'll struggle against Fiji and Canada....
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Any man who feels aggrieved by Wales loss, and blames it on the referee need only look at the games statistics handily on the BBC website. It clearly and mathematically shows Italy were the better side in every way.
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Jenkins can't make decisions. He looks embarrassingly inadequate aswell (the mullet hair does not help). It was painful watching him on TV after the game. He simply has not coped with the responsibility of managing an international side and is close to breaking point. The guy should resign to save face. These are the answers to the problems; Hook at 10 he has so much more vision as demonstrated yesterday - he looks at what is in front of him and reacts... he is not a centre at international level - he is a natural 10 - it is bloody obvious. Charvis should have been in at blind side he wins ball on the floor like no one else in Wales, again obvious. Too late now of course but why was he in the Squad? Does not add up (even if he only played for 50 mins). Stop kicking away possession, kick appropriately ie yesterday left hand side with the wind and play the patterns that follow ie Italy lineout and clear to touch Wales get lineout = attacking position. Don't play injured players ie Mark Jones. If someone is off form then don't play them. Obvious... but why then persist with Jones and not Henson. Drop Jones. It was a real error of judgement giving him a 'captains contract'.
The players are better than Jenkins has allowed them to be. He must go, don't care when- that is almost insignificant.
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Firstly, Good on Hook for having some guts and going for the line-out; its misfortunate what happened but thats irrelevant now, it doesn't change a desperate game.
GJ needs to go. Simple as that. Terrible team selection that shows no creativity. No imagination in the game. I know people will look back to mike ruddock, but we need to look back further, to Steve Hansen, and look at the work he put in place. Maybe its time we grew up and looked abroad again? The team as it stands isn't going anywhere, they show no promise. England today, in parts, did. They're giving the young bloods opportunities and its paying off.
Maybe the problems in the backs (sorry, being a centre its my main focus) is down to Nigel Davies, but I think sadly the buck stops with SJ. When he went off and Hook took 10, they looked far more threatening, much more movement and better distribution. SJ offers no pace and is playing too deep, offering death balls to Hook to try and do something with. His game's also lost alot of width. Shanks has improved though, and is heading back into form.
We need change, we need GJ out and sadly SJ out too. He's been a great 10 but he doesn't offer anything to the game anymore.
I also think Henson has lost out big time under Jenkins. There was obviously something during the AI's that we didnt hear about; i think under a new coach we might see henson get back into form. Theres a big hole at 12 (as Hook is clearly a brilliant 10). Im not Henson's biggest fan but I think we shouldn't be too quick to resign him to being Mr Charlie Church.
We'll lose against England. In a way, that might be a good thing. It should mean the end of GJ, and although its very close to the world cup, i think we need to take the risk with someone new. Otherwise the humiliation will continue.
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Let the Welsh enjoy the world cup by withdrawing this mismanaged team.
It's time we realised that we need the best to run a world class team,and even though we have world class players' (and we do), their management is shameful.
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Its only a game, we lost, we'll lose again, it's all about learning from it and at the moment we just don't seem to be. I hope we can feel as unhappy about the decision making process when it goes in our favour in the future. Italy were better, the officials performed as well as they could and wales didn't turn up. Let Italy have their moment as they've come a long way.
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I think this was already stated in an earlier post but Gareth Jenkins IS the Ron Waldron of 2007.
He is unbelievably out of touch and don't know what kind of style he is trying to get us to play - looks something like keep giving the opposition the ball and somehow without the ball we will manage to win !
On the 2005 Lions tour did Woodward have a crystal ball with him where he could see Jenkins becoming the Welsh coach and thought right this is it I know how I could get the Welsh to play crap rugby again ?
If we lose to England next week then Jenkins should resign on the Monday .
Bring back Mike Ruddock .
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Mr White - correct in Law. The error was in his miscommunication on which he has apologised.
Standard practice for refs in that situation if they are asked and they say there is enough time to get to the lineout is to play the lineout.
This isnt in law but is a reasonable practice.
At internationals the referee is not in control of the timing and thus he does not know when it ends.
He was told, time has expired, the ball was dead and the lineout had not been awarded. Therefore he had no choice but to blow full time UNDER LAW.
If he had carried on he may have jeopardised his spot at the RWC??? and therein lies the strict application of Laws this year, even if they look wrong.
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We Lost to Italy, it wasnt lost in the last seconds, ref or no ref, we lost it in the first half...
I wish I could understand what our game play was..we throw the ball around if we are still in school... here, there, anywhere..thers no direction to play with.. we take chance after chance, and still end up going backwards: We look a average side, but isnt this side we have now, the side that took the GRAND SLAM, A couple of years ago...
Something is wrong, and i can only say, its the management to blame for it.
Small minded , with small ideas..
We need a person who has got the BIGGER picture to take us forwrd
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Wales lost to the better team. Yes, some actions by Italian players were despicable, and should have been penalised, but they hardly turned the game against Wales. The 'fiasco' at the end will be a lesson to the players involved. The main problem facing Wales, in my opinion, is that the coach is not of international calibre. No matter Gareth Jenkins's pedigree at club level, he seems out of his depth with the national team. Even his media interviews show no decisive grasp of the nature of the game on the international stage, and are cliche-ridden at best. I am reluctant to say it, but I feel that he should stand down after the six nations games. (Should we invite Mike Ruddock to take over for the World Cup, with options for 2008 and beyond?)
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Bring Back Ruddock! We need him so badly. Mind you he wont come back because of the way he was treated. anyway I think we can beat england but i also think its unlikely. but were at home so lets see what cardiff can bring us.
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I don't know who is best to coach Wales at the moment but someone that is capable of getting the Welsh pride and passion back in to the game and can get a world class team to perform. The team fell apart just prior to Ruddocks departure (rumour has it he was to blame for that and it's connected to Sonny Parkers "retirement" at his peak game!) and have never looked the same since. Two of the longest darkest years of Welsh rugby, where will it end? I've no confidence of a win against England next week which all points to a white wash. As for the ref...Wales didn't win it in 80 mins so the 6 secs wouldn't make a difference.
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Bad decision - undoubtedly
But then, Wales shouldn't have been in that position anyway. What the hell's going on? This is virtually the same group of players who majestically took the Grand Slam.Is it the line -out? The coaching?
England played superbly yesterday and if the same team turns up next week and the same Wales mind-set turns up, we'll be looking at the record books again...
In my mind, the only person guaranteed a place next weekend is Katherine Jenkins - she's never put a foot wrong!
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Writers are referring to the lineout after a penalty kick as a normal lineout, it isn't, otherwise the opposition would throw in the ball. The side awarded the penalty is allowed to throw the ball in SO IT MUST BE PART OF THE PENALTY. That being the case, if the kick is allowed, THE LINEOUT MUST BE ALLOWED BECAUSE THE BALL IS NOT DEAD DURING A PENALTY.
However, that said, Wales are not playing like a functional team. When Ruddock was coach, there was a strong scrum and lineout ensuring an adequate supply of good first phase ball; the ball was won going forward and the half backs had a bit of time to take the best options. Even the knowledge that the ball from a scrum or lineout would PROBABLY be good gave an edge that is missing in the Wales' game this season. Wales cannot be sure of getting good ball from either scrum or lineout and the uncertainty leads to a more defensive attitude, even when in an attacking position, so the ball is kicked too often and possession given away. Wales has good players who have played better in their careers. Most have not gone backwards because of old age, they have just lacked good coaching in the Wales' squad. There will not be any improvement until the coaching team changes and the WRU takes steps to ensure that 'player power' will not cause us to lose another good coach like Ruddock.
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I must be honest, I am Welsh and would prefer to go down fighting rather than get another draw!
At the time the penalty was granted I said they can't take the 3 points! If they were top of the table then clearly that would be the case, sadly we are at the bottom with nothing to gain by getting a point out of the match!
In hind sight a tap penalty would of been the option to take! What ever happened to set move penalties close to the try line, all international and Regional side go for the line outs!!! This makes no sense to me when you are 100% sure of possession from a tap and run with some forwards on crash ball runs with support!
Bazzar moment but Italy were there to do a job and they did it! Well done!
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Paul No 117.
Best and enlightened post on the sorry Chris White ending-well done. I just hope that some of the bigots who cannot stand being beaten by a better side, will read it, but I doubt it.
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Even if the line-out had been taken, Wales would have done one of the following:lost the line-put, dropped the ball, knocked on, given away a penalty or completely lost their way as with the previous 79 minutes. So it makes no difference at all. the referee simply saved us one last moment of embarrassment.
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Fact is that Wales didn't do enough over the 80 minutes. They couldn't take the 3 points on offer because they hadn't done enough over the preceding 79 minutes and 50 seconds.
Really disappointing end to a game of rugby though.
All keyed up for a death or glory lineout and charge for the line and the ref just stops it...
aaarrrgggghhh
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We were poor....end of conversation....we were just very poor, as for the final 10 seconds, if we could'nt manage do do it in 70 minutes of play what hope REALISTICALLY was there of doing it in the last 10 seconds....we should have taken the three points and gone home with a draw...poor decision making....and NOT by the referee..
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The worst possible thing to happen next week is for Wales to win, and we might, if we do then GJ will be off the hook, if he had any pride or loyalty to Wales he would resigne now and let us rebuild for the future, who would I choose to replace him, I dont know, we have given away three of the best coaches in the world so who would come here, I fear it will become like trying to find a coach for the Engilsh football team!
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The Welsh kicker was told by the referee that there were 10 seconds remaining. As apparently experienced players, the captain or kicker should have realised that it would take longer than 10 seconds to form a line-out and get the ball back in play. Given that the ball would be dead once it was kicked into touch, surely at least one of the players should have twigged that the only options were to run the ball or kick for goal. As an aside, I think that if the referee had been in charge of time, as in "the old days", Wales would have been allowed the line out. By taking that responsibility away from the referee (to 'prevent human error' perhaps?), you have a situation where the ref is dependent on another person for decisions on things such as time. Give the referees back their responsibilities, and allow them to be in sole charge.
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What kind of a state has Welsh Rugby come to when they are complaining about being "robbed" of a draw with the Italians?
Home nations wipe the smiles off your faces that were so present when England "struggled" past Italy. We're the only ones this side of the channel that have made that struggle so far. Watch out Ireland.
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It seems to me that there were 3 options.
1) Kick for goal almost certain 3 points and a draw
2) Kick to touch ball will go dead and no guarantee that the line out would be won anyway
3) Take a tap penalty, keeping the ball alive in your own hands whereby time cannot be called until the ball goes dead.
Its pretty plain to me that the safest way of maintaining possesssion of the ball was to tap and go.
Christ grass roots players would have been able to make that decision.
Wales lost the game during the 80 minutes not the last 10 seconds, all that occurred in the last 10 seconds was a very poor decision that fitted in with a very poor overall performance. If Wales had won Italy could have felt very hard done by.
Stop blaming Chris White, he told them there were 10 seconds left and Hook made an incorrect decision.
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On the subject of Brian Moore's commentaries, I agree that he is sometimes biased and a bit politically incorrect but he does have a go at the English teams as well as the opposition.
I think of him as a "colour" commentator as the Americans would say and he's there to get a reaction and provoke an argument from his co-commentator which he rarely gets from Eddie Butler who is as fair and even handed as they come.
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Can we all lay off Chris White.
He has apologised as game "manager" and that should be an end.
The problem was with the timer. He clearly told Mr White that there was 10 seconds, unfortunately in the time between that, Mr White telling the Welsh, and Hook asking if there was time for the line out it was probably nearer 5.
I don't know whether the timer could hear the conversations on the pitch but if he could he should have waited until the lineout was awarded before he called time. If he couldn't then he did everything by the book.
The issue of lineout timing compared to penalty was recently discussed in the Laws blog and it was stated that a lineout from a penalty is a new play from a dead ball and therefore not part of the penalty.
From the point of view of timing, if the ref had called the lineout, it would have taken place. The problem was that the timer had called time before the ref could do that.
What would have happened if the ref had said no time when asked? I would like to think that Hook would have tapped, but when an excuse is offered to divert attention from inadequacy, I guess its easier to accept it.
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Message 89. appropriately named Mr. Pratt.
So you expect referees never to make mistakes? (if indeed this particular event was a mistake.) It must be wonderful in your utopian world!
Bottom line is that referees generally make less mistakes in a game than the players do.
Like, for instance, kicking to touch with 10 seconds left on the clock and expecting to get a match winning try!
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Gareth Jenkins is out of his depth - FACT.
Get rid ASAP.
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People are wondering why the officials didn't see Bergomasco's punch - have you considered that it's because he didn't let them? Incidents like that happen a hundred times a week in club games up and down the country - and the first thing you learn about the dark arts is to make sure that they don't get seen by the ref or the TJs.
The video evidence is there, and he'll almost certainly get cited and banned, but you can't blame the on-field officials
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Wales' biggest problem lies in the failure of the pack to win descent ball. the backs are a match for anyone and hookies performance in that second half was excellent. The possession stats are a bit of a mis-nomer when Wales won the Grand Slam in 05, they never had >50% possession in any match. Its what you do with it that counts
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1. I never understood the obsession with kicking a close-range penalty to touch. Surely a scrum guarantees the possession, ties in all the opposition forwards giving you more chance out wide or via back row moves, and is 15 metres in giving you a hefty blind side option. I guess the idea with the lineout is that, having secured the ball, the opposition will stand aside and you casually walk the maul in from 5 metres.
2. Don't make me laugh about Brian Moore. First candidate for removal for biased commentating is the whingeing Welshman Jonathon Davies. Every comment is Welsh-biased. Every opposition break is ALWAYS primarily down to poor Welsh defence. And it's always so whiney. After that we would move on to Eddie Butler...
3. A rule change would be a good idea to allow the lineout to be part of the penalty play. As long as the kick into touch is carried out before time, the lineout should then be guaranteed irrespective how long it takes to sort out. After all, there SHOULD be a disadvantage to the infringing team. It would also become unambiguous from the time-keeping point-of-view.
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So some people are annoyed at the supposed bias of Brian Moore. The question I would ask is why do we need a welshman commenting on an a game not involving Wales. I find Eddie Butler's commentary every bit as biased as Brian Moore's.
And the referee made the correct decision. The penalty was awarded nd that play concluded with the kick into touch the ensuing line out is not part of the same paly and therefore if time has run out then its the end of the game.
The big question really should be why take a crazy option in the first place!
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The main point about Saturday's game is there should never have been any need to get concerned about that decision. It is better that Wales lost and take a long hard look at themselves than they scraped a draw or even a win and fool themselves everything is alright. It is the same with England; losing to Ireland was a good thing because they were forced to make necessary changes. They are not yet there but I fear they will outplay Wales even taking the crowd and passion into consideration.
Beech or Pine?
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So what you are saying is that after 79 minutes and 50 seconds, the referee is responsible for Wales losing the game in 10 seconds ??, Ummm, technically the ref was wrong, but a bit harsh to blame him for losing the game. Wales, you have problems all of your own making since you stabbed your successful coach in the back.!!!
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Annoying and frustrating as the ref's cock-up at the end was, it doesn't compare with Gareth Jenkin's cock-ups as coach to date.
It is hard to believe that this is essentially the same group of players that Ruddock had. But as it is, he must take the lion's share of responsibilty for the distinctly below average (yes i'm being kind) performances so far. We have not won a 6 nations game since Ruddock left. And we won't next week. (Much as that hurts me to say)
I mistakenly believed that Jenkins would be a good choice of coach but was unimpressed with his choice of backroom staff (Neil Jenks apart.)the belief he had the best people in wales at llanelli is either arrogant or stupid. I go for the latter. I'd hoped he try to get a top team behind him and bring in foreigners if necessary. West really isn't always best.
I believe it's too late to get rid before the world cup,it's never worked before. So its a few more months of misery to endure. We have been here too often in the last 20 years.
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The 4th official (timer?) did Chris White no favours. He is heard repeatedly (3x) saying "Chris, I have time" in response to requests for clarification from the ref once the ball had been kicked into touch. What does that mean? Was he being obtuse or what? Why could he not have said "There is time for the lineout" or "Its the end of the game". I trust he will be stood down for future internationals !!
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Come on my Italian friends, don't get chippy (too many "stop bleating" and "Welsh Rugby is history" silly posts). I don't think there's a Welshman on this board who doesn't admit that Italy were worth it over 80 mins and that the main fault for our losing lies with us and not Chris White. The big plus for Italy this year is that your backs have looked dangerous for the first time I can remember. You were indeed v.unlucky with the "knock-on" from a Welsh hand (though scoring along the touchline from that far out is normally quite tricky). Having said that, I don't actually despair of the Welsh side either. There was enough glimmer (particularly James Hook) of talent for me to think that we could still gel together. We talk about how we have fallen from the 2005 Grand Slam side to a Whitewash. But two years before the GS we were pretty shocking too. I am not yet convinced that we won't acquit ourselves respectably in the RWC. And, indeed, I'd prefer to go into that with our chances written off, than with everyone talking us up. We tend to thrive on lack of confidence.
Chris White was a bit of a goon. There were fewer than 10 seconds between him telling James Hook he had 10 seconds and the ball going into touch (and therefore a line-out being awarded). So he should have honoured what he had said.
But as others have pointed out, we might not have scored anyway. And though a Whitewash is pretty nasty, it's not hugely different from having one point at the end of the season having scraped a last minute win against Italy, is it?
I wouldn't be surprised if we still beat the Sais. But wouldn't be surprised if we don't either.
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It is good to see supporters being so even handed in their comments. "wales didn't lose it because of the last ten seconds"
I do referee games and agree it was a poor decision, in fact it was poor play all round. Italy for giving the penalty away, Wales for not kicking for goal or running and the ref for not being authorative enough.
Just switching the argument on its head. If the time keeper had said time was done, Mr. White had let play continue anyway and Wales scored and won the game. Do you think the Italians would have felt less hard done by than you did?
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i have read a few posts where by people are insisting ruddock be re-instated as coach, why would anyone want someone who had little or no respect from his players to be placed back there!!!!!
we must stop complaining and start supporting our national team.
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You Welsh are so predictable. You always seem to have a need to blame someone other than yourselves. The players on the pitch mad a poor decision, you lost to a good Italian team. Live with it!
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get a grip the team was just not good enough to beat the so called weakest team in the six nations, WE are just using excusses for another bad welsh display .the game of rugby is played with ball in hand something the welsh team had little of. Stop having a go at the officials, and look at the real problem, the team and the coaching staff.
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oh my, oh my. Move on fellas. Yes it was a mistake or miscommunication, which Chris White has apologised for, but not as big a mistake as deciding to kick to touch with seconds to go expecting that they would simply drive a pack back for a try that had outplayed them for 79 mins and 50 seconds. They should have swalloed their pride and gone for goal, or tapped and ran. It was a very poor tactical choice.
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Until the coaching staff and team are correct there is little chance of winning. Gareth Jenkins said he would pick on form. Colin Charvis is in the form of his life. Ryan Jones has lost form. Charvis doesn't even get on the bench and Jenkins loses all credibility.
Rob McBride is not good enough to coach the forwards. These are the same guys that won the grand slam so no excuses.
The WRU got it wrong. They should have appointed Phil Davies. His record in the Guinness Premiership was excellent. A far harder training ground than the cosy Magners League.
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how are we supposed to beat england. what team do we pick? we need the ball and the players we got cant keep it!!
whats everyones views on this?
15. Kevin Morgan
14. Aled Brew
13. Gareth Thomas
12. Shanklin
11. Shane Williams
10. James Hook
9. Mike Phillips
8. Popham
7. Martyn Williams
6. Colin Charvis
5. Brent
4. Alun Wyn
3. Duncan
2. Mefin
1. gethin Jenkins
Lets get some physicallity back in our play. why not go ' big is beautifull' it works for everyone else. look at new zealand and Ma Nonu. terrible hands but still makes into the new zealand team? we can still keep the elusive players sucj as shane and kevin but by players big impact players that will only lead to more space for shane as people like mike phipps and brew normally take more than one man to stop them.
theres got to be logic in this??
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Never mind the referee. Wales had hardly any teritory or ball. Jenkins has got to take the blame, we have talent in our squad but he is not helping in fuffiling there potential. Wales and jenkins have go to take the blame not the ref!!!!!
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If Wales would have beaten Italy in the same way Italy did on Saturday a lot of comments wouls have sound like "Italy still doesn't know all the tricks to play at international level" and the Bergamasco's punch would have been called "something that can happen in scrums". Please face that fact that Italy deserves sometimes to win.
Anyway it has been a very nice match!!!!
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could i just remind Gareth Lewis that the game has LAWS not RULES.
And that Wales should feel agrieved by what happened, but look on the bright side of things, what would have been the reaction if a similar situation had happened in a football match....... riots, arrests, and thats not even thinking about what the fans would have done!
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I have to agree with comment no. 132. Wales did indeed lose the game in the previous 80 minutes and not the last 10 seconds.
At least we will get a nice new wooden spoon to hang up in the trophy cabinet this year.
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I have just watched the scrum 5 review of the situation online with the counter going. Chris White says 10secs. Hook kickes the ball there is then a further 18secs before Chris White blows for fulltime and the lineout still isn't formed. The welsh must have known that they needed to get the ball back in play I believe that the welsh should have taken a tap if they realy thought they were up to it.
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Just watched an excellent clip on scrum V online where the discussion between Chris White and James Hook, and then White and the TMO is clearly audible and can be timed. White tells the Welsh players they have 10 seconds, 4 seconds later he confirms to James Hook that they have 10 seconds and there is time for the lineout if they're quick or words to that effect. Then White has a ridiculous conversation with the TMO where the TMO informs White that time is now up (because the clock has continued to tick! it's not basketball where the clock stops when the ball is out of play). White questions this twice with his TMO who tells him in an exasberated tone that time is now up. Meanwhile Hook has kicked to touch, but the Welsh pack have shown no urgency to get the ball back on the pitch within the 10 second interval. At the end of his conversation with the TMO White blows for full time, now 20 seconds after telling Hook he has 10 seconds. As regards whether the lineout should have been taken or not, it was not adwarded within normal time and therefore should not be completed under the rules. The problem here is the refs poor communication. He should have clearly told the welsh players that he was blowing for full time in 10 seconds if the ball was not in play from a lineout and that the clock was still ticking. End of conversation. Welsh decision as to what to do. Very unsatisfactory end to a great game.
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Does anyone have a comment on why instead of kicking for touch they didn't take a tap. That way at least we would have had possession (not guaranteed from line-out) and the game would have ensued until the next break in play regardless of the clock.
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get over it and stop bleating you'll have your chance to put it right next weekend ( but remember you also had your chance to put it right last weekend)
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Rather than comment on whether the referee was right or wrong. I think what more disturbing and no one has commented on was the way in which the referee was confronted by the welsh players(gareth thomas in particular). Whether or not you agree with the decision, you do not as a player stand in the middle of the pitch and argue with the referee, you accept and move on! Or are modern professional rugby players going to start acting like footballers whenever a decision goes against them!
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