What is acceptable violence?
- 12 Mar 07, 05:39 PM
Glasgow - Friends of mine know that I don’t like to beat about the bush. So, here goes...why did Ireland coach Eddie O’Sullivan accuse a Scottish player of deliberately choking one of his players? And this leads to another question: What is an acceptable level of violence on a rugby pitch?
I have been quiet on the blog over the last two weeks because defeat by Italy was hard to take. There has been much gnashing of teeth in this country, and even people with no teeth have been provided with them so that they can join in. But I left Murrayfield at the weekend with a feeling that Scotland had played much better and that they should have beaten an Irish team which turned out to be not quite as good as the hype.
It was a clean game unless some news arises after I write this column. A column written just on the 50 hour deadline for a citing to be put in place. But every day we see acts that are extremely physical.
When is it okay to stand on an opposing player? How high can you tackle someone? Is it ok to lift them up in the tackle and then drive them back ten yards and dump them on their back? Is it ever okay to stand on a player? If an opposing player is in a maul, can you hurl yourself at them with full force?
I won my first cap when I was 22. I was 15 stone four lbs and six foot four inches tall. My son, capped aged 20, is the same height and now nearly 17 stone. People are bigger and stronger.
Go on then, discuss what is acceptable violence. What do you accept as the limit of the roughness to which anyone should be subjected when they walk onto a rugby pitch?
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I really miss the days when the camera
didn't pull away from the fist fights that occasionally happen in grudge matches. In my view, that sort of violence is acceptable morally, but obviously must be punished to keep the game disciplined. The sort of violence I think is unacceptable is the 'sneaky' violence, which players can't respond to. Choking would obviously fall underthis category.
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there is no level of violence that is acceptable outside the rules.
the physical confruntation of rugby allied to the high skills and tempo of the modern game is what makes it the great sport it is.
it truly is "a man's game" (sorry ladies) and because of this there can be no room for violence.
When someone gets blindsided or whatever people trot out the "man's game" and "handbags" or some other cliche and it makes my blood boil.
It is precisely because Rugby is an ultra physical game that is has to be played within the rules and there can be no room for violence or dirty play.
there are enough opportunities to physically dominate your opponent within the rules without resorting to any skulduggery.
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Great question you've posed. This is something we've been discussing in my Sports Studies class at college with varying responses from players of differnt sports. It's hard for people who dont play rugby to accept the physical requirements of our game. Once you start accepting violence it becomes part of the sport and hard to erradicate. As a player i know that rucking(raking) and hard tackles are accepted, yet tripping, punching and stamping is frowned upon and penalised by the referee. I feel that as long as a player uses assertive behaviour to win the ball, and not aggressive behaviour(deliberate intent to hurt someone) then their 'actions' are acceptable. However my father, a former (high level) forward feels that you must do whatever is neccessary to dominate your opponent!!
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Having seen the picture of Ronan O Gara lying unconscious on the ground it must be emphasized that John Hayes prompt and decisive action in clearing O Gara's airway was vital and is to be commended.
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What is Eddie O'Sullivan accusing us of exactly ??? It was a mistake and it could have been nothing to do with a scottish player anyway ! I have just read in the hearld newspaper that we have atempted to murder Ronan O'Gara. I like the Irish and i would love to see them win the six nations i have read on a website that Briam O'Driscoll has said it was not a malcious game so what is all the fuss about ?
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I agree with Ned, no level of violence accepted, but plenty of aggression, that's what makes it a man’s game.
However the key to the whole thing is not to get caught, by ref, by linesman and now by TV. In the near future it will also be mobile phone, digital camera, down the pub afterwards, at your girlfriends house or wherever else the media are willing to pay for.
The game is good right now, hard I agree and at times tempers are lost. Who is caught is generally punished and who whinges generally looses credibility. If there is one thing I learnt as a player it is that once the game is finished it is finished. I don't remember anybody setting out to do serious harm to another although opportunities arose at times and have been taken over time, Mostly by the very best in the game.
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As a Player the new stamping law is slightly frustrating. When the ball is trapped in a ruck it should be removed and if a body is in the way be it intentional or not then it should be persuaded to move. Then the ball can be won and play can continue instead of stopping the play for yet another scrum.
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There should not be any 'blindsiding' or stamping in a perfect world of rugby.
However, as a former player myself, I am only too well aware of the reasons players give away penalties and infringe in a technical manner so as to prevent the opposition from scoring (usually a chance of 7 points preferring to give away 3).
When referees were less hot on infringements in the tackle area an old fashioned 'shoeing' was an excellent deterrent to players killing the ball. Now though, this has gone at the highest levels, although some games are still ruined by players killing the ball when the referee is weak and fussy, but these are becoming rarer.
On the whole players who dish out cheap shots are usually those on the receiving end later on, especially when referees and match commissioners do little about such things.
Its not a perfect world and players dont play within the rules all the time. I suggest finding culprits and punishing them is the only way to deal with these situations. The O'Gara incident is very unfortunate and the players will know who is guilty IF it was deliberate. If they are certain, charges should be brought, and witness statements taken. If they aren't they should now keep quiet.
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Technically speaking there should be no allowance whatsoever for any "violence". Anything that is deemed violent, deliberate or accidental (i.e. a high tackle), should be punished.
We're not talking about players getting battered and bashed around in what is a highly physical sport. The vast majority of players respect the wellbeing of their oppenents and do not set out to seriously harm them. Those who overstep the mark should face the consequences.
As for the O'Gara incident. It was completely innappropriate for Eddie O'Sullivan to start making such bold accusations without actually watching the footage back. You can clearly see that O'Gara falls awkwardly on his neck - but there's not a Scottish player anywhere near him. I just hope O'Sullivan has the good grace to apologise for the aspersions he was castings.
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I think its a good question to pose, especially in an environment where every international seems "must-win". I think any level of aggressive play, whilst visible and within the rules is acceptable, even if it leads to injuries. It is a contact sport after-all.
But whats not acceptable are some of the "dark arts", which go unseen. Such as choking, gouging, testicle-grabbing, biting (rare). These tactics must be stamped out of the game, forever.
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I find this hard to take in. ROG was undoubtedly hit hard by Hines, but in a legitimate tackle. There is no camera evidence of foul play, also if as Eddie O'Sullivan claims that several of his players saw a Scot 'choking' ROG, then why as far as I could see were no Irish players accusing or pulling a Scottish player off ROG as a consequence; I would have thought that if I had seen a team mate of mine being choked, I would have 'remonstrated' with his assaillant. I think it was an accident that happens in rugby and fortunately for the quick thinking of Hayes amongst others, the consequences are not more serious. I only hope that this does not affect ROG's confidence or affection for the game as he has been one of the standout performers in this years 6N.
On the subject of what is legitimate, one of the traits that I abhor in rugby is the droppping of the knees on to a try scorer's back after he has scored; it is cowardly and spiteful.
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In the modern age, referees often penalise players rucking others out the way. But as said earlier if its not intent to hurt or injure someone then it should be allowed to clear the breakdown- how often is someone lying on the wrong side not penalised by the referee, only for an opposing player to be penalised for rucking or "stamping"? It slows the game down and players now know they are protected from an old-fashioned rucking, as long as it isn't on joints or the head, and is reasonable, referees should turn a blind eye to allow the game to flow.
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Acceptable level of violence?
Mmm quite a poser - but here goes.
In ten years of playing a decent standard of rugby I have had to use my boot on three occassions to remove bodies out of the way.
I have once lost my rag to such a point that I attempted to throw a punch, but in the process realised I was still holding the ball in my hand and the only thing I ended up throwing was the ball!
Rugby is a tough enough game (male or female versions) without stepping over the mark. That is why rugby players from Old Flipflops 5th XV through to the All Blacks are respected throughout the world.
Violence happens, occassionally - but I do not believe that anyone would intentionally try and strangle another player. Although being Welsh after this last weekend, we might as well blame Mauro Bergamasco - he's already got away with attempted murder once with that punch on Stephen Jones!
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Some things are regarded as beyond the pale - you never hear anyone refer to the Lions-Canterbury game in 1971 with jocularity for example....
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In my view anyone who accepts deliberate violence as an acceptable part of rugby or football is both immature and scary! Violence is the pathetic person's response to a dispute or feelings of anger. I have seen both rugby and, to a lesser extent, football match with kids as youns as 7 or 8 where deliberate punches & kicks were seen by the ref but went unpunished much to the delight of watching mums and dads! How scary is that? What are we trying to teach our kids about society and how we deal with conflicting interest? Violence rules ok? Look on the main street of any average Scottish town on the weekend and I think you'll find the answer.
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I feel that any sort of violence should be punished. I understand that it is difficult to contain yourself as a player, as rugby tends to bring out a sort of primal instinct to assert ones dominance over another. I feel that raking in the rucks is fine, so long as it is not used irresponsibly. as for dump tackling, I think we should have more!! theres nothing quite as good as watching someone get nailed with a perfectly legal tackle. it also changes defence on the back foot to defence on the front foot. More hits please!
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Andy says "you can clearly see O'Gara falls awkwardly on his neck - etc etc etc. Well Andy nothing in this incident can be seen clearly. Nobody has come out and said O'Gara became unconscious due to falling awkwardly on his neck. So what puts you in such a strong position to say what clearly happened? your statement is ridiculous in the extreme. what is clear is O'Gara went into a ruck conscious and ended up unconscious. surely isn't it vital that we all found out how this happened?
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Rugby Is a physical challenge I am a strong believer that in some instances excessive physicality should be aloud! For example rucking if a player is on the wrong side as long as his presence is impeding access to the ball should not only be aloud but encouraged as long as its not to the head or knees, England got pinged for this when the French 7 was on the wrong side he was not stamped on nor was a boot placed on his head or knees but France still got the penalty y? to answer the question poised earlier yes it is ok to lift someone in the tackle just don’t dump them on there head. Is been physical not violent chocking and a punch on a defenceless person is violent!
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I am eighteen and i have been laying rugby for twelve years now. It seems that every coach/referee has different views on what is acceptable.
Some allow scrag tackling (grabbing the shirt and throwing to the floor) whereas others don't. A high tackle is now perceived to be above the armpit line. And as far as "treading on other players" goes, as long as the opposing player is on the wrong side of the ruck blocking the ball, then "rucking" is acceptable. This is where the boot is making a backward motion, trying to pull the player out of the way, no downward motion.
There do need to be more solid rules in rugby, a lot comes down to the discretion of the referee. The referee of the England U20 v France U21 sin binned a player for killing the ball. This was their first offence. Other referees let them do it 2 or 3 times before having a word with them.
Thats my view anyway!
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Ronan O'Gara was at the bottom of a ruck (no place for a No 10 anyway) and could have been squashd by any number of beefy forwards. I don't think the Scots have any case to answer to, unlike Mister Mauro Bergamasco. There is a huge difference between two players having bit of a set to in a tight match when tensions and emotions are high, and who subsequently get a ten minute breather courtesy of the ref, and someone having a cheap shot at a player who isn't even looking in their direction! The latter is what needs stamping out. And like Jiffy said "what exactly are the linesmen looking at?"
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I don't know that it's appropriate to say that Scotland are cleared of this incident. EOS said from the start Scotland wouldn't be cited as TV footage was unclear. There are two ways ROG was choked either a player had their arm over his neck accidentally in the ruck (and may not even know) or it was deliberate. Given the position it's possible that this was a deliberate attempt to start a fight in which a penalty would be awarded to Scotland (kickable) to maybe win the game, hard to rule this out too ever since BOD on lions tour - albeit hard to believe a Scottish player would ever stoop that low? Whole thing unclear, maybe never to be resolved.
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I have played rugby for 30+ years and must admit that I have been trodden on allover this country,mainly for being where I should not have been,as a slow backrow it was always your duty.The only time I complained and still complain is if my head was the target.Rugby has and should always be a physical game.
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I think Hayes did a great thing, similar to what Umaga did for Charvis a few years ago. I think there is a danger of suffocation in rucks but i'm glad to see the players are now so quick to react, e.g. last years Anglo-Welsh final with mark jones running to help someone.
I think players would not wish suffocation on anyone and would do any thing to prevent it. The most malicious incident was Bergamasco punching Jones infornt of the cameras and getting away with it.
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All foul and dangerous play needs to be penalised. For example Troncon´s deliberate stamping of Rees in Rome this weekend should have been penalised by the Ref. Instead he decided to ignore the incident- in doing so he has condoned Troncon´s foul play. Another incident from the same game was of course Bergamasco´s cheap punch on Stephen Jones - when asked about it the Japanese line judge says he has seen the incident and has no problem with it. Yet the citing Commissioner has called Bergamasco to book. The failure of the line judge to act cost Wales dear, as Bergamasco went onto score the winning try. He also committed foul play holding Morgan back in a dangerous welsh attacking move - I wonder if he will be called to book for that incident as well. He should do to ensure that cheating does not become a standard part of the international game.
I have noticed now that in rucks and mauls players often try to blast opponents out of the breakdown area by steaming in full force this is a typical tactic used by the ABs and which Wales tried on several occasions in Rome. I am not at all convinced that this is a legitimate manouver as it is often used to disrupt the oppositions ruck and slow up the ball.
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the scottish player should just own up, its as simple as that! its a disgrace to choke someone in the bottom of a ruck, when they obviously cant do anything, and even worse when they dont own up.
Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up.
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Two things about this article. Firstly Ireland deserved to win the game on sat becaus ethey played all the rugby. Only their own ill-discipline and great scottish defence make the score line as close as it was. Scotland, in an attacking sense, are rubbish. They have one good attacking player-Lamont.
Secondly, EOS should be censured by the IRFU for those comments regarding the "O'Gara incident". You cant go around accusing the opposition of such gross foul play unless you can back it up.
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Call me old fashioned, but anyone who handles on the ground deserves all they get, similarly someone on the wrong side of a ruck deliberatly not rolling away should get a shoeing.
The critical thing is that this is not a stamp, ie not downward pressure but backwards, to clear the man away from the ball.
A french flanker won a penalty for being shoed, whilst deliberatly slowing play on Sunday, and did it three more times during the game killing English ball.
Any punching and a yellow or red follows, you'll neve stop it but you must punish it.
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the scottish player should just own up, its as simple as that! its a disgrace to choke someone in the bottom of a ruck, when they obviously cant do anything, and even worse when they dont own up.
Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up.
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Violence, meaning intent to hurt, should never, never be allowed. No sin bin for this, immediate red card, and the referee is right.
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O'Gara did suffer a cracking good tackle that may have winded him slightly at the time - but if you look at the TV shots - he was not unconscious when the ruck was being played - but was kicking his legs furiously.....whatever the reason.
Accident or deliberate... I doubt we (Joe Public) will ever know... but somebody, somewhere knows they have had a lucky escape either way.
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I think that there is an acceptable level of violence on a field. If there wasn't, rugby would be a non-contact sport. It is also frankly nonsense to suggest that only violence conducted within the rules is permissible, since every team will take their own judicial actions during a game that will often fall out with the rule book. It is a professional game now. The threshold would be when a player acts to deliberately cause long term injury to an opponent. But things such as the odd shoeing at a ruck are very effective methods of 'sorting' out a problem which referees often ignore.
On another matter John, i remember after the slanderous allegations made by Aled Brew and the Dragons, that you decided, using this blog, to jump on the passing bandwagon and have a cowardly pop at the behaviour of Ulster fans. Well sir, you have been very quiet on the behaviour of a considerable portion of the Scottish fans who chose to boo any rendition of 'the fields' and any goalkicking attempt by Ronan O'Gara. I appreciate Scotland have had to resort to busing kids in to boost their attendances, and the dip in crowd behaviour is probably a result of this, but I notice you have chosen not to have a pop at your own fans? Tut tut.
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Rugby has itself in a difficult situation at the moment. In the "good" old days players involving themselves in the "dark arts" as some contributors refer to them as would have received some on field retribution which though never explicitly condoned was often seen as an accepted part of the game. Not so nowadays especially in the professinal arena, unfortunately referees are increasingly struggling to keep up with the pace of the modern game. I am convinced that this has left a void which is encouraging all forms of "cheating", the use of deliberate covert violence is just a part of this wider picture.
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Sam Rice,
U19 laws are differant to open age. Anything at armpit or above is high at your age level. The problem is that you have refs who do not know the laws, or ref as if it were open age. Therefore you can't be scragged either.
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Surely Eddie O'Sullivan should be reprimanded for outright accusing the Scottish rugby team of trying to kill one of their players? Its a scandal if he gets away with these accusations which are based on tv replays which are murky at best.
It was an unfortunate incident, and one which in no way could have been pre-planned. Rugby players are honourable, and while fists fly in the heat of the moment, most can sit down at the end of the game and have a pint. The notion that a Scotsman has deliberately tried to seriously maim O'Gara is ridiculous and wrong.
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I think the most important thing to take out of all these comments is consistency. Referees are not consistent; this is in ALL levels of rugby. Playing at the weekend, one week a referee will penalise a team for an offence and give them several warnings before turning to the cards. Other weeks it will be for a first offence (for example this weekend a prop for our team was yellow carded for rucking the player out of the way). I think that the referee's association needs to implement consistency then we will all (players or not) be able to distinguish what is an acceptable level of 'violence' on a rugby field.
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In regard to the Ronan O'Gara incident on Saturday, I don't think that your question applies. Your question of what is the acceptable level of violence acceptable would be, in my opinion, more suited to the Brian O'Driscoll incident on the lions tour. In that scenario, that was a tackle that happened week in week out and Brian was in the unfortunate position to land awkwardly. Had no serious injury resulted from Umaga's tackle, no issue would have arisen from it and resulted in the outlawing of spear tackling.
However, in the case og O'Gara's alleged "choking", the players neck was interfiered with. Once that happens, you are no longer just talking about a players career, but you are talking about potenially losing the ability to walk un-aided aswell as the potential for the loss of life.
So, in answer to your question, any tackle above the shoulders is a high tackle. In regard to stamping or clearing out of a ruck or mall, if you shouldn't be where you are, as long as it isn't excessive, anything goes, once it doesnt interfere with the players neck or back. Any responsible rugby player understands that.
And finally, on a seperate note, about the "not quite as good as the hype" Irish team, who beat a poor Scottish team that, at home, had 1 try scoring oppertunity in 80 minutes. In anyones book, not even Scotland's workman-like performance, deserved to beat an off form Irish team.
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Now that we have been cleared from any wrong doing, is anyone expecting an apology from Eddie O'Sullivan for basically accusing one of our players of trying to ROG?! Not me, he won't do it. How can he stand there accusing people of this sort of thing when he didn't even see it and there is no evidence to support his claim whatsoever? Has it not occurred to him that someone's arm might have been pressed on ROG's neck during a ruck purely by accident? I have been a proud Scottish supporter for many many years and I doubt very much that one of our players would deliberately do such a thing. The Irish coach has made a big mistake here. Perhaps the SRU should consider suing O'Sullivan for defamation, pay off a few of the debts!
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i as a fan of rugby can not believe what has happened at the end of that match the fact that o'Gara was kicking out so hard. you cant see but you know what was going on and if you see the footage again you can see two very worried scottish players more interested in what happened to o'Gara then losing the match. come on come into the real world
And to answer your question that kind of violence is not acceptable buy any one never mind on the pitch!!!
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Timmy (post 25), the point is, there is absoultely no evidence to point the finger of blame at anyone. Therefore, you are in no position to make wild accusations of certain players. At best, comments like yours are ill-informed. At worst, libelous.
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To Timmy at 25 Iam sure it must have been Hugo Southwell that did it,considering he was replaced in the 39th minute,where you watching the same game as O'Sullivan.
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I think the Scottish players have a right to be upset with O'Sullivan's comments. Having looked at the incident several times, I cannot see how it is at all possible for either of the two Scottish players involved to have got his arm into position to choke O'Gara. If such an allegation was made by an Irish player, the clever thing to do for O'Sullivan to do was to review the tape first before making any comments.
I think Eddie owes the Scottish team an apology!
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As a former Junior rugby coach; who tried to instil the idea of firm but fair into young players, I must suggest that NO level of violence is acceptable.
Violence to me denotes a premeditated attempt to cause harm to somebody and that surety cannot be condoned in any circumstance.
I accept that the game is hard and physical; and long may it remain so, but there must be limits. Whilst rules can help, our game has always relied on a certain amount of honour and respect amongst players; yes I know things do go on in e.g. scrums and mauls, but that does not detract from the fundamental ethos of the game.
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All of us who have played rugby for a period of time know that each club has it's "nutters". Too often they are indulged as being the 'hard man' or 'enforcer'. One player twisted my head 180 degrees and could have broken my neck. Another hooker chose a scrum to try and feast on my throat. Neither incident stopped me playing the game I love, but it did give me an insight into the qualities of some of the people playing, not all of whom are paragons of morality.
I doubt that on Saturday anything untoward was happening - rugby players are often reacting to imagined slights more than reality - but rugby as a game needs to accept these people exist. Until clubs stop indulging this behaviour we are counting down until someone is maimed or injured.
Incidentally John, you were known as a hard character yourself ... how has your view changed?
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I don’t agree with anyone who say this is all fuss about nothing! When a player is lying on the turf, is blue, and needs to put in the recovery position, I would say it is quite a serious matter. I have watched this incident over and over, you can see as the ruck forms John Hayes kneels and bridges his body over O'Gara's protecting him from the force of the ruck. Hines who puts in the big tackle on O'Gara is lying next to him, in a position when his arms are in that suspect area.
Now I’m not saying that O'Gara was deliberately choked, or in deed that he was choked at all, that’s not my place. But I do think that when you look at all the facts, 1) O'Gara's air supply was clearly blocked by something. 2) A Scottish player (who O'Gara had a tussle with early on, and was getting cheeky trips and niggles in all game) was lying next to O'Gara in the ruck. 3) Eddie O'Sullivan the “cool headed coach” is the last person to make statements like that without solid foundation. 4) And the fact that the Ireland players claim to know whom the player is.
I think it’s very easy to say the evidence wasn't substantial enough. As I believe that it isn't the video evidence that needs studying. Obviously, news of an incident like this on a rugby pitch will place a bad name on the game worldwide, and for this reason and this reason alone, I think a certain someone has been very lucky!
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re #25
Timmy, you are on dangerous ground. You are assuming - because no-one seems to know for sure - that a Scottish player committed a deliberate act of attempted murder. And you name two suspects. Do you have the evidence to prove your possibly libellous accusations? If not, perhaps you should consult your lawyer!
Anyway, it couldn't have been Southwell - he had been replaced by that time.
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timmy - how on earth could southwell have choked o'gara? he was taken off after 40 minutes.....
....unless he has some sort of ninja-magic mind power?
from watching it, it does seem much more likely to me that o'gara got hit hard and swallowed his tongue than that he was choked. he doesn't move after hitting the deck.
all credit to hayes for his swift action though.
on the 'acceptable violence' issue. if you're on the worng side of the ball or got your mitts all over it then (IMO), raking is ok but stamping isn't (and stamping's doubly bad if on joints).
but it's high tackles that make me wince the most.
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Bit off the topic but I know your son's cousin, Charlie Taylor, he might be the next one in your family to be capped for Scotland ;) he's pretty good!
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If it is true (& I can think of know other logical explanation as to how a mans neck can be crushed) that O'Gara was assaulted on Saturday, then the individual responsible should be charged in a criminal court, and certainly banned for life. However, the fact that this cowardly act took place away from the "all" seeing eye of the tv cameras, they have escaped punishment. It astounds me that any honest, decent person could sleep after such an incident. Plus, the forearm smash on Strettle v Ireland the other week - surely the whole "swinging arm/fist" rule needs to come into play here too. Whilst acknowledging that it is a mans game, & having played I know this, there comes a time when over-physical styles are going to get someone seriously hurt. O'Gara could have never breathed again, let alone played again.
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I was at Murrayfield and didn't hear about this incident until afterwards. I had recorded the match though, and watched the slow motion replays of the incident (from two angles) several times. It is clear from those replays that no Scottish player (including Hines)was in a position where they could have got their arm round O'Gara's throat. That is why the citing commissioner found no evidence of foul play. I assume that O'Gara lost conciousness by accident as a result of several players (some of them Irish) lying on top of him.
It is telling that none of the Irish players or the coach who have commented on the incident actually saw anything themselves. O'Sullivan should apologise immediately.
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i believe that there is no place for violence in the game, but on the other hand i think people on the wrong side of the ruck should not be tip-toed around to avoid. i think off the ball digs are completely unacceptable and punching, biting etc is out of order. but it is a physical game and i believe there should still be violence, but in a controlled way. as a player there is no better feeling than walking over the top of the opposition 7 so he knows he has to stop diving over, but not stamping on him trying to cause injury. fighting is unacceptable. what happend to O'Gara is unacceptable. they cannot get rid of violence from the game as without violence and aggression and passion it will not be the same game that we love. the violence just needs to be controlled and kept under control.
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I think that the 'rucking out' of opponents is fine. aslong as it is rucking out and not stamping. I've been playing quite a while and think there is nothing better than someone better lifted up and put on their arse. the physicality of rugby has always been high and thsts what makes it what it is. The only thing I can't stand is the sneaky things. If two players have a disagreement and fight, that is just due to the heat of the moment. The punching of an opposition player when he is not loooking though is completely weak. Cowardly behaviour should be left to the kissballers(footballers) and we need to keep Rugby Union a gentlemans game.
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Mmmmm. International rugby is a physical high impact game in which any collision could lead to the loss of consciousness of a player involved. Being at the bottom of a ruck can occasionally be very uncomfortable too, but you'd want to be very unlucky to accidentally end up either unconscious or suffocated as a result, no matter how many players are on top of you - most rucks move on/finish up pretty quickly.
Eddie O'Sullivan was very trenchant in his comments and I would hope that he wouldn't have made them in the immediate aftermath of the game and repeated them over the next 36 hours unless he was very sure of his ground. I think he was naive to think that any player, Scottish or otherwise would put his neck above the parapet to give his side of events let alone admit to intentionally injuring Ronan O'Gara.
Notwithstanding this, if the Irish group are convinced that a serious assault has been made against Ronan, there are other avenues open to them to and he might have been wiser not to speak so publically if he didn't intend to pursue them.
In my view the Scots have certainly not been cleared of an offence, rather that RTE and the BBC couldn't find any TV footage of any offence to show the citing official.
Those who have complained about Bergamasco's punch are correct to do so. That he punched in clear view of the camera, has been cited as a result and will probably miss the Ireland game does not make his a greater offence - he was just spotted committing it.
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John, I don't see how you can say that Scotland should have beaten Ireland. Scotland were not good and only very poor refereeing kept them in the game. Their backs were offside all day and were never penalised. Just look at the video. Their forwards were constantly on the wrong sides of rucks preventing Ireland from moving the ball, plus lazy runners running back from offside were rarely punished. They succeeded in stopping Ireland from playing like they can. Well done, for that! But did they deserve to win? I don't believe so.
Regarding the O'Gara's situation at the finish, somebody asked what is all the fuss about. The fuss is about a player being deliberately, sneakily and cowardly choked at the bottom of a ruck, out of sight of the cameras, officials and spectators. It has been reported that some Irish players have confirmed this and seemingly know who the culprit is. But nothing can be proven because it was so sneakily done.
Why was Ronan O Gara kicking his legs. Ah sure, it was just a carefree demonstation of contentment and joy. For the love of Guinness, he was trying to bring attention to the fact that he was being dangerously choked while he couldn't defend himself or extricate himself with many other bodies on him.
The headline reads: 'Scots cleared of O'Gara Foul Play'. Ah well everything is ok then! Mr Fowler couldn't see it happening in the middle of a ruck, so it never happened! No worries so!!
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Violence is unacceptable in the game of rugby. However there is a massive difference between being violent and being aggressive within the rules of the game. A huge hit where u drive somebody back can give your team a big lift and as long as it is not a spear ( lifting legs above the head) is perfectly legal and in my opinion a big part of the modern game. There should be no tolerance of violent conduct with intent to harm but isnt the physicality of the modern game what makes rugby so great?
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In reply to Timmy, Southwell wasn't on the pitch, if you watched the match you'll know he went off injured at half-time, and that Paterson wasn't part of the ruck in which this occured. Personally I think it was completely accidental, and that nobody should be portioning out the blame, naming names or pointing fingers. These sorts of things happen (admittidedly not always such serious incidents) in a physical game.
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The citing commision have found that there is no case to answer as replays do not show any incident clearly. That will be the end of it for now. However, several Irish players know who was supposed to be responsible, Scotland play Ireland again in the summer, perhaps the law of the jungle will apply and there will be some payback coming to the player responsible then!
Most rugby players are very loyal to the defence of their teammates, stuff like that doesn't get forgotten!
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Malcolm, "The notion that a scotsman has deliberately tried to seriously main O'Gara is ridiculous and wrong!"
why is it ridiculous? because he's scottish...becasue a scot would never to that? how do you know? do you know them personally? There are, unfortunatly, on every side in the 6 nations players capable of throwing punches and doing illegal things at ruck time. Patterson and a few others were doing things like this all match, hence why BOD had a go at him. And also a few irish players were at it aswell.
There is a "notion" becasue a player was left unconscious on the field after a ruck, Whether is was an accident or not, well we'll have to wait and see. But nevertheless a few Irish players have been quoted as "seeing it happen!", EOS made his comments based on what his players told him. Would a player make that up?
O'Gara was conscious after the tackle, you can see that. Then during the ruck you can see his legs kicking wildly(like someone might do if there being choked). No yes it is possible it is an accident(and i hope it is) but if players say they saw something deliberate....!
I don't appreciate a scotland fan coming out and denying the incident just becasue "a scotsman would never maim a player". I do believe most rugby players are honourable...but a player doesn't turn blue in the face for nothing.
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I think there are 3 issues here; Firstly, that of Eddie O'Sullivan. His accusation that someone has tried to deliberatly choke an opposition player is scandalous beyond belief and does not sit well in the tough but fair game of rugby. We're getting to football type "histrionics" (Wenger; Murinho etc) in this situation. First point, someone at the IRB / IRFU should have a quiet word with the increasingly vocal O'Sullivan and remind him that this is not football. Second point, the alleged incident itself. Todays game, particularly internationals, have so many camera's pointed at it that the players themselves know that they are almost certainly going to be caught if they get up to some form of sculduggery; not including the intervention of the touch judges. Those actions which are generally caught are momentary lapses of concentration - a punch; a stamp, perhaps even a trip. But that is exactly what they are - momentary lapses occuring in perhaps less than a second or two at most. To consider that a player has in actual fact maintained a hold on a player such that the player's air passage is restricted to the point where the player turns blue is suggesting perhaps 10 - 15 - 20 - seconds of significant pressure. This would suggest a player who is likely to have a considerable record of violent behaviour and, therefore, recognised as a thug. At the last analysis, I do not recall anybody in the Scottish team coming anywhere near that category.
Thirdly, and finally, O'Sullivan has now done a fantastic job of deflecting media and Irish rugby focus away from the fact that, once again, the Irish have (again) blown a great opportunity to win their first 6 nations championship. Chokers? Indeed.
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Yes the game was quite clean, but the incident involving ROG quite clearly needs to be clarified. If the pictures on the front of yesterday's papers are any indication of what happened, then the incident was quite serious.
Everyone also seems to have missed the punch on Donncha O Callaghan from 17 Allan Jacobsen (I think); see - http://eolhc.org/video/punch3.avi
I can't believe the ref did nothing, it was right in front of him. Fair play to Donncha for not reacting..
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I have to say I think Eddie O'Sullivan was spot on, this was a disgusting attack on ROG & the only unfortunate element to this is that nobody can be cited because of lack of evidence. It's so clear he's being interfered with, you see his legs kicking out and then going dead and in the aftermath he's blue in the face (only for the quick thinking of Hayes, this could've been far more serious) - accidental, I don't think so. Eddie apologise - I don't think so either!
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I can't for one second believe that with all the cameras the BBC have around the pitch nothing could be seen in any review. Nevertheless, the Scottish player responsible (and that would probably be the last one up from the ruck - naming no names!) will know who they are. The Irish players would never make an accusation like that against a fellow professional without some grounds. Maybe Munster will draw Perpignan in next year's Heineken cup and all will be sorted out!!
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i must as a 16 year old player the new interpretation of the rucking rule does get on my nerves
i have always been brought up on the principle that if someone is deleiberately slowing down the ball they must know the risks of being there and would expect to get a shoeing.
no matter what people say it is obvious when someone does not mean to be there and players know this too. hence, a player is only rucked when he is cheating.
the fact is now that no one can touch a player, so we see deliberate cheating even more often and it is spoiling the game. In the ireland v england game as well as england v france and wales v italy we saw example of players just falling straight over the top and stopping the ball as the referee refuses to penalise it. the irish do this brilliantly and fair play to them for getting away with it but it is painful to watch. the game just cannot flow freely
the area on the floor should either be made a free for all, which i am thoroughly against, or it should go back to the way it was. physicallity is a fundamental part of the game. i know for one i fully expect a shoeing when i lay on the wrong side. but that it the price winning comes at
sam 16
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I can't quite get my head round how everyone has jumped to the conclusion that ROG was assaulted. This is on the say so of the Irish coach who was in the stands assisted by inconclusive video replays. His assertion that several irish players witnessed the alleged choking is also puzzling if that was the case what where they doing? If I was playing and saw one of my teammates being choked I wouldn't just stand around with no apparent reaction. All credit to John Hayes for assisting ROG but I still think the whole episode has been blown out of proportion as there is no clear evidence to support any of the claims made. If the irish players did witness it why have they not come forward and why are the police not involved? Furthermore do you not think ROG himself would realise he had been deliberately choked and would be raging about it? Instead he was quoted as asking what all the fuss was about, I know from previous experience (not choking) that when your at the bottom of a ruck you can still tell the difference between a deliberate action and something accidental either way you still know that it had occurred. I feel that this is a statement made by EOS to deflect attention away from a poor irish performance against at best a workmanlike scottish team and personally the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
As to level of violence in rugby? You play with 100% commitment and that means you pt your body in positions that it shouldn't be, the New Zealanders are brilliant at it. If you do that you expect to receive a shoeing for your pains, anywhere except on the head. Punches and the like are not really acceptable but I can understand why they happen at times. You can spot a dirty player and he generally will get more than he dishes out through hard hits and the like in a match. General rule is that if you dish it out you've just got to be prepared to be on the receiving end
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if the whole choking incident was accidental and the scots totally refute the allegations then why doenst the player involved just say what happened to clear it all up. silence speaks volumes and while it may have been an accident the fact that the scottish camp is keeping quiet is kind of dodgy. with no footage of the incident then they're in the clear.
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Though the siting commity have not seen anything I can't believe they have missed what I think happened. which was a scottish forward elbowing O'Gara in the throat as he ran passed. If you watch the incident, as O'Gara runs into the pack a scottish forward who has his back to him brings his right elbow back at head/throat hight hitting him in the throat as he runs past O'Gara's momentum takes him forward into the tackle. This is where the Irish think he was hit but they should look at it again. This move is cynical and the player should be disciplined or banned.Players need to realise that their indiscaplin could end someone career or kill someone.
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There is no place for violence on the pitch. Rugby is a physical, high impact sport, but the key word is sport and competition. Violence cheapens the endeavour and pursuit of victory through skill, tactics, physical and mental strength (and yes the occasional luck of the bounce). Permitting violence would be degredative to the sport.
As for the O Gara incident, it's true no one could see what happened, and players can have other players collapse on them in a ruck, but lets get real for a minute, for someone to be deprived of air and go unconscious in this manner, your airway must be constricted, by force around it. While we may never know what happened I doubt O Sullivan would have made such a serious remark without holding belief in it. Knowing video evidence would be inconclusive, they have righltly not named the player who they suspect, as this player would have this against him, without being able to prove otherwise.
Incidentally, I am an admirer of Patterson, but surely his cheapshot into the back of ROG in the first half when the whistle had already been blown for an infringement was way out of order.
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It was unacceptable and Scotland have clearly not been cleared just no culprit found. Like when 6 police officers are around and a prisoner dies and no one says anything - showing real contempt for the law.
In some ways I actually find violence at top level rugby more acceptable than in the lower levels. I used to wonder quite if a 3rds game was worth dealing with violent people - I recall being head butted by the loose head twice in the scrum when we went down until he found out I was a lot stronger than I had been showing and bent and twisted him till he all but cried, oh and picked him out to run over in the loose - I was wrong as well, of course. However the point is violence begets violence.
It annoys me in Soccer that pundits constantly defend pointless agression in areas of the field where winning a challenge is almost pointless. In rugby it should be stamped out. Yet whinge, constantly about acts that would not hurt anyone. At least rugby has a grown up attitude to cheating whereby it is only cheating if you get caught.
We cannot know if Sullivan is over the top just as we cannot know if the Hunt went at Cech to buzz him up or land one on him. It is on the conscience of the Scots.
If what is claimed happened then the Scots if they have an ounce of love of the game (or their country)they should give the guy up, they'll know.
Lets face it sports people are not the guardians of any game - quite the opposite. Indeed when Henson pointed out quite how O'Driscoll behaves in rucks and mauls he was the bad guy for some reason. No one has denied to this day that Mr O'D did not, least of all the man himself - puts into context the whining that carried on long after the plane landed from the Lions tour to NZ.
More generally the 6 nations is too petty and people's aims in it too limited to act as an effective springboard to the world cup. England won last time in spite of it and really prepared on their pre-world cup tour with away wins down under. Even then they largely reeked through the early rounds.
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To Mr Beattie and all those others who say that Eddie O'S shouldn't have said what he did and should apologise. You know what- maybe Eddie is sure as he has the word of one of his players!
I remember being choked at school to the extent that I fell and became unconscious. I know who did it but they denied it in front of the headmaster. They never owned up to it but to this day I know who did it.
Who knows the facts of what happened at the bottom of the ruck. It may have been an accident- it may have been deliberate.
Ronan O'G must be pretty certain - and if it did happen there must be someone else who knows as well.
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I think the new stamping laws are fair and should only be done on the torso (coming from a guy with a black eye after being stamped in the face AFTER the ball had been lost by the opposing team!) I think it was utter B*****S what O'Sullivan said! there was a massive pile on and O'Gara was on the bottom! cant do anything about that! But how Bergamasco's punch on Stephen Jones wasnt seen by the touch judge is appalling! no way is that right! Aggression is needed but it needs to be controlled and safe aggression!
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The level of acceptable violence depends on the rules of the game. It is clearly ok to punch somebody unconscious in boxing (occasionally killing some boxers to which there is no recriminations). I think you instinctively know what is acceptable violence when you see it. A hard hit below the shoulder area is lauded, a high tackle can cause serious injury of a fatal nature as can gouging, choking, kicking in the head, goolies(?) or wherever. It seems to me from the video footage, that o'gara got caught on his side (an unfortunate position) at the bottom of probably 70 to 80 stones of
of forward players and had the air crushed out of him for a dangerous amount of time. Dangerous yes, intentional, no.
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Yup
I agree, the two things are separate. If a Scotsman did try to throttle an Irish player then I am ashamed. But the word coming out of the Scottish camp is that this did not happen.
The Scottish players near the incident deny the allegation.
If Irish players are saying that they saw it then someone is lying or mistaken. If it did happen then a Scotsman is lying. if it didn't happen then Irish players are mistaken.
I actually hope we find out as this will leave a stink between two Celtic cousins.
As far as the game is concerned, only a penalty against Taylor for lazy running, when there is no such offence, gave Ireland the win although I agree that Ireland broke Scotland's defence much more often than the other way around.
But acceptable violence and back to the topic. Should you be allowed to stand on someone?
JB
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In response to Timmy and Post#39 Liam, you two are completely and utterly stupid.
For one as has been mentioned, Southwell was off the field at the time and Paterson wasnt involved in the ruck, so to blame them is idiotic.
Secondly only Eddie O Sullivan complained about the incident, and he was miles away on the touchline, Brian O Driscoll said nothing and none of the Irish players reacted in any way, so what does that tell you. If O Gara had been choked, his teamates would have gone mad and remonstrated with the Scottish players.
Thirdly to Liam about Scotland striking out in frustration cos they cant play rugby and were destroyed by Ireland, do you even know what your talking about? Scotland outplayed Ireland for most of the game, played the better rugby, and as Keith Wood stated all Irelands points were given to them by Scotland. Ireland didnt deserve to win and were flattered by the win.
You sir are a disgrace to rugby fans all over the world with your ignorance.
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Rucks are poorly managed by referees. There should be little danger to the tackled player and the tackler on the floor because the law states that no player should have his shoulders lower than his hips or cause another player to have their shoulders lower than their hips. If that law is applied at the outset of a ruck (and players entering the ruck have to bind to a team mate)then there should not be a situation where players are "bundling" on top of players already on the floor. That is a penalty in itself and as soon as it happens the referee should penalise accordingly.
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Stamping in ruck to remove someone who may or may not be cynically fouling is, I feel, acceptable. Rugby is rough and that is one of its joys. But I would be sad to know if any rugby player deliberately choked one of his opponents. I hope for the sake of the game that the alleged choking in the Ireland v Scotland match was not as serious as is being made out.
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The only choking going on was that of the Irish team and their inability to turn the hype into reality.
As for violence, it's a game in which there will always be the odd bit of Queensberry rules, fortunately it all takes place on the pitch and is quickly forgotten about.
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Rucks are poorly managed by referees. There should be little danger to the tackled player and the tackler on the floor because the law states that no player should have his shoulders lower than his hips or cause another player to have their shoulders lower than their hips. If that law is applied at the outset of a ruck (and players entering the ruck have to bind to a team mate)then there should not be a situation where players are "bundling" on top of players already on the floor. That is a penalty in itself and as soon as it happens the referee should penalise accordingly.
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In all levels of rugby, there's a certain level of self-regulation around the breakdown, whereby those who infringe are dealt with by the opposing pack. No self respecting pack, from club level upwards, would let an opponent get away with choking one of their players. None of the Irish forwards went for the Scots after the incident with O'Gara, therefore none of them saw anything. QED.
Rugby's a physical game, and confrontation at the breakdown is a key part of forward play. Rucking and hard tackling (below the neck line) is completely acceptable, and may it always remain so. Stamping, punching and any other attempt to injure an opposing player is comppletely unacceptable and should be punished in the harshest possible way.
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well and good to say the rog incident was an accident. if the scottish are so sure then why hasn't the player involved spoken up? silence speaks volumes. it's a shame as the whole thing could be put to bed. so the whole thing just looks more suspicious as no one has spoken about it from the scottish side. violence is never acceptable as rugby is quite a dangerous sport anyway and injuries can be caused by legal challenges let alone adding violence to the conundrum.
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If Martin Johnson's standard of on-field behaviour is (was) somehow acceptable, and indeed, worthy of being rewarded with the captaincy of both England and the Lions, then I'd suggest that pretty much anything goes. Sure, he was suspended for some things he did, but he got away with far worse.
Then again, he had some pretty good examples to follow - Wade Dooley, Paul Ackford, Dean Richards. These miscreants all helped to put the "thugby" in "rugby".
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you say the scottish camp have denied it....what a surprise. could hadden really come on the telly and say "by the way, the move on o'gara was a training ground move we practice every day". if this event took place in a pub between two gangs,and the police investigated it, im sure they would not take the word of the leader of one of the gangs. i trust o'gara and i think it's about time we stopped ignoring criminal acts on the pitch. rugby is rugby, violence is criminal. Mr Beattie, if Hines did do it, dont be ashamed, you didnt do it. it is he who should be answering the questions.....also, we were still the better team
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Just saw Against The Head there on RTÉ2 a while ago and when they showed play leading up to the "O'Gara incident" it looked to me that ROG was hit on the head by the elbow of the Scottish number 17 as he was running through. That possibly may have something to do with what happened after. Fair play to the Bull for his quick thinking! Violence anywhere is unacceptable
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I would like to add I have seen a lot of accusational headlines, not one headline that says, "'We are innocent' say Scots players".... Why would that be now?
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Rugby is a very competitive game and this may, in some instance, come out in violence. This has been happening in rugby for years and makes the game what it is. The acts of violence are not malicious, they are done in a competitive mindset. I have expeirienced this first-hand on the pitch. When a person is psyched up for a game it is hard to control reactions. There is a fine line between Motivation and aggression and this line can easily be crossed. For me this is what makes rugby. It would not be the same if all violence was outlawed. Why change a game that is already great? I don't believe the acts of violence should go un-punished but they should not be publicised to this massive extent. Punching and stamping may not be acceptable but it will happen in every game of rugby that is played. I don't want to see the game i love ruined.
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It's fair to say that IF a Scottish player tried to choke O'Gara, then yes, it is a serious issue. But from the replays, you can't tell. What if the arm choking O'Gara was trapped in place? Who should be blamed there? The IRB for allowing rucks to occur? The referee for not spotting it?
As far as an 'acceptable level' of violence, I feel that any activity that is not centred on securing ball for your team is unacceptable - you can tackle someone as hard as you like, if you hit them in the chest or below. I remember a certain Jonny Wilkinson being praised for a massive hit on the Italian number 7 a few years - and the same should apply to mauls. It's the same concept - just more people! It's not violence, it's physicality - and in a game where fitness and strength play a huge role, this kind of activity is fair enough. Players spend hours in the gym, building themselves up, so why shouldn't their physiques provide them with a competitive advantage?
Finally, Eddie O'Sullivan is out of order for suggesting a Scottish player tried to seriously injure, if not kill, Ronan O'Gara. He can't back it up - you can't prove intent from a TV replay, especially one when you can't see what's happening.
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I apologise if my point has been made up thru the conversation already...there are a lot of posts and i didnt have time to read them all!!
Firstly the game itself was not a malicious one...not a particularly entertaining one either...but the incident was really outside the game itself. I don't really see what the Irish would have had to gain from making this up. Judging by the Irish players reactions at the time it was more serious than we even realise. However, over aggression like this isnt new to the game...anyone remember Umaga and Co. on O'Driscoll for the Lions.
To deal directly with the question... I feel that of course the rules of the game should never be forgotten...otherwise we lose the fundamentals of the game itself. However I think players can be excused for the occasional punch up and the such like, particularly at International level. As an ordinary guy I cannot begin to imagine the level of expectancy on the players shoulders...they want to win so much for the thousands in the stadium and millions more watching at home. So although it should never be condoned...surely its part and parcel of the International Scene.
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Please no more replies to Timmy - he is clearly using a rather large spoon (maybe wooden?) to wind you all up.
In my opinion rucking out with the boot is acceptable (although not in the head area) if the ball is deliberately being killed or slowed down and the situation is not being handled effectively by the ref.
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No 61, crucially you can't see what was happening between Jacobsen and O Callaghan in the few seconds before your clip starts. I don't have a video and didn't see this from my seat in the West Stand. Having watched Chunk on many occasions domestically and internationally, I can say he is not a dirty player but also doesn't let anyone away with hitting him, shirt pulling etc.
I have looked at this clip many times, and there's really only one player who could have been responsible for ROG (if anyone was), though the distances and angles look wrong. I do wonder if ROG's shoulder pads might have been something to do with it though as I played when these were strictly for Joan Collins I don't know if they have safety features to prevent this (eg velcro).
Those who accuse Chris Paterson of dirty play should get a grip of themselves. He is the lightest player around and has more sense. However there are several players in every 6N squad that you know might be sin bin candidates. On one hand they can provide leadership and boost morale. On the other, they have a degree of thuggery we should not tolerate. I'm sure none of them will ever do it again, but Messrs Hines and Grewcock and lots of other current players do have form, as did Finlay Calder, Wade Dooley, and many others who could sue me.
On the subject of raking, I do think there's an issue. If the player is killing the ball, leave it to the ref to sort out. If however, you are playing the ball with your foot and a player happens to be in the way, that's too bad. Having broken a few ribs from being raked, and hence missed games, I think I know what I'm on about.
Where there are things to sort out unofficially is where the ref will never see them. I played loose head from age 10 to 14, and in one game my opposing tight head brought his hand over my eyes every scrum. The solitary time he got it too close to my mouth, I bit it. Just a nibble really. Stopped instantly. Next scrum he went in hard but fair (and exposed my lack of technique) - better all round.
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You know I wrote this comment and It wasn't published so I have tried to tone it down...but frankly I find the whole conversation bizzare. Acceptable violence? What is all the fuss about? A man almost died, fighting for his...no wait, sorry A man almost died playing a game. A Game for god sake. It's not war, it's not a MANS game. Those of you that hide behind that crap are not man enough to look deeper. I find it sad that we have to hide our animal instincts and we disguise of the violent and ignorant as being manly and even gentlemanly and hounourable. There is no nothing about honour here. Remember O Gara getting singled out on the lions tour some years ago as his face was punched in? What is acceptable? A man dying? No. A man being crippled in a tackle? No. A man doing the most with his athletic ability and INTELLIGENCE to win a game? Yes of course. If you are not intelligent enough to understand that it is entertainment then you should join the army and go fight in Iraq or Afganistan where your blood lust can be satisfied. MY children and I don't need to see grown men acting like babies in a playground when their frustration gets the better of them. Shame on you all.
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It's a worry when even the commentators seem to be urging the violence on.
Watching the replay of the French guying getting rucked on Sunday, BBC viewers get treatedto the judgement "that's fine, besides he's French, so who cares" (apologies if i've mis-quoted, but that was the gist).
Admittedly half the English viewers were probably thinking the same thing, but is it really right for the voice of the BBC to be encouraging it?
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im 19 and have played rugby for the past 8 years and am also a qualified ref and obtained an A at A Level sports science. i think that there is an acceptable amount of violence outside the rules. the only reason i say that is because from my own experience, both playing and reffing, people need something to get their emotion out. if it is a close match and/or a match that has a lot riding on it, people will be getting frustrated and a tension will be building. if they complete their goal (ie score a try) then this tension will be relieved. if not, then this tension will build up until it is released in a very aggressive act. (it is known by pyschologists as the aggressive cue theory)
therefore, for both the players and the referees sake, it is better for there to be a scuffle after a scrum to relieve this tension, than for a flanker to deliberately put in a huge, late tackle on the flyhalf. a lot of people will probably disagree with this but, in moderation, some violence outside the rules is necessary.
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My comment was that no one on a rugby field would try to kill another player. The fact I said Scotsman is because it is they who are accused. Agree with John - if it happened, then I am ashamed. If it didn't, someone is lying somewhere.
IMO, Eddie O'Sullivan has spoken in the heat of the moment when still concerned for his player. Understandable, but still a huge accusation to make. Maybe a quiet word in the Scotland dressing room would have been wiser.
Also, TV pics are inconclusive on the incident, but if Irish players "saw it happen" why didn't they react at the time? Someone strangling your team mate - what would you have done?
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Players who try to get others binned by play acting (used to be just soccer, now every weekend in rugby) ought to get their xxxxing lights punched out next ruck, referees are getting so sanctimonious that it encourages the cheats.
Also think that I'd far rather see a proper punch thrown than the slapping and pushing that we've inherited from soccer because everyone's so terrified of laying a real punch on. Most flare ups are the result of poor refereeing resulting in frustration.
Bergamasco will, I suspect, say that he thought Jones had gone very high into that tackle, and he might have a point.
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Post by 'Timmy' on the 12th
'Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up'
Firstly, well done to Timmy for being the only one of 6 billion people on the planet who knows what actually happened. Although, I grew up with mossy paterson, and if it was him that did it, then the pope is not a catholic and santa is real after all. He is a true gentleman of the sport. A credit to the game. Ssecondly, as for accusing southwell, I would be a tad impressed if it was him seeing as he was off the pitch in the stand with a knackered shoulder for almost the whole second half. Get a grip Timmy.
It may have been deliberate and it may have been an accident. Fact is we wont know. There is no camera angle showing what happened. I was at the game on the side where ROG and there was no appearence of any Scottish player trying to strangle him. Another post commented that no Irish player tried to have a go with any of the Scottish ones, again suggesting it may have been an accident.
As for rucking. Backward motion not near the head - i think thats fine. I have done that. I have had it done to me and i accept it as I was breaking the rules of the game. A stamp however is totally different. A raking does not hurt at all. A stamp sure as hell does.
As for the dump tackles. They are the highlight of any game. There is nothing better than watching an attacker running at full pace and getting dumped on there backside. However, spearing someone down on to there head ie twisting them up and planting down head first cannot be accepted.
anyway, rant over!
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No. 87
I admit you can't see what happens before DOC gets hit, but does that excuse the fact that he was punched? Certainly not. Although you seem to back the fact that he was hit with no evidence whatsoever that DOC did anything. I also very much doubt that DOC did anything to provoke attack because he is not that type of player.
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Rugby players have always 'walked'into each other getting back to their own side. I remember Grant Batty assisting anyone to their feet. What is sad is that no one will admit to killing the game with slow play, deliberately standing in front of the ball at rucks and mauls (albeit to one side) or diving into the neck and heads of player working to get a ball on the ground. Or the sly standing on arms, legs and ankles by French scrum halves as the collect the ball to pass it out.
Every team has its thugs and we wouldn't miss them as we'd have one less thing to moan about!
Forget its a man's game, worry it could end a career if the size of players continue to grow!
And when does a charge down become a knock on.
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Was ROG choked?
The BBC must have had at least two cameras on the other side of the pitch. So 'open' BBC, put that footage on the Rugby Union pages so we can all see it.
It may be inconclusive, but then we would _all_ know it was inconclusive.
(Or are you too cosy to the Rugby Unions to put it online?)
I think the points are well-made about the non-animated reactions of the Irish players near the ruck, but that is not proof either.
I'd like to hear John Hayes's view or that of the physio who ran on (as far as I can see unprompted) while Hayes was putting ROG in the recovery position. (The two Scottish players seen in the online highlights (from 12mins 30secs) retreating from that side of the ruck might have something useful to contribute if so inclined.)
I accept that "What goes on the field, stays on the field" is part of the creed of the game, but:
EITHER this was malicious and deserves to be punished
OR it was an accident and if the truth about the mishap comes out, players/refs/physios/paramedics/coaches will be better informed to avoid the worst consequences of another occurrence in the future.
Afe
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John Beattie - i specifically remember you swinging a big hook at Murrayfield, to the delight, at least to those under the clock. I would have to think hard to pin point the exact game but my guess would be in 1981 season. The following game you came on as a replacement and there was a massive cheer as you ran on and expectation of a similar performance. There was no doubt that since you weighed less than 16 stone you were perfectly entitled to throw such a punch.
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Was ROG choked?
The BBC must have had at least two cameras on the other side of the pitch. So 'open' BBC, put that footage on the Rugby Union pages so we can all see it.
It may be inconclusive, but then we would _all_ know it was inconclusive.
(Or are you too cosy to the Rugby Unions to put it online?)
I think the points are well-made about the non-animated reactions of the Irish players near the ruck, but that is not proof either.
I'd like to hear John Hayes's view or that of the physio who ran on (as far as I can see unprompted) while Hayes was putting ROG in the recovery position. (The two Scottish players seen in the online highlights (from 12mins 30secs) retreating from that side of the ruck might have something useful to contribute if so inclined.)
I accept that "What goes on the field, stays on the field" is part of the creed of the game, but:
EITHER this was malicious and deserves to be punished
OR it was an accident and if the truth about the mishap comes out, players/refs/physios/paramedics/coaches will be better informed to avoid the worst consequences of another occurrence in the future.
Afe
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"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".....I thought this was our Lord Jesus, not our Lord Eddie.....
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Collie21 (comment #90 last para), if you and your children act like that in the playground, perhaps you need to see a counsellor...shame on you.
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Its simple1 if the Rugby World gets to harsh on laws against phyiscal battles (aka violence) then rugby will become one step closer to the FARCE that is soccer because players will begin to fake injuries if they believe the opposition will be Red Carded and punished!! that phyisicality makes the game what it is!!
Obviously must be to a certain degree,if O gara was deliberitly choked then sum1 must be punished as the legend that is O, Gara could have died!!
p.s. MUNSTER ARE LEGENDS!!
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Bill Beaumont once told a good story when during a ruck in a game against France, he drilled in his very best shots to an opposing big hairy french forward's body.
The french forward turned to BB and said something along the lines of "when this ruck is over i will kill you". Apparently BB spent the rest of the game watching and waiting for the hit, and therefore slightly off the pace. So I suppose it can work against you.
Oh and why we are trying to be moralistic here, wasn't it a scottish forward who is credited with the premature ending of BB's playing days.
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As the song goes, 'We'll meet again..."
This is how this will be sorted. Questionable? yes. Just? Absolutely!
O'Gara's team mates will accept the findings of the citing commissioner but will exact a punishment they deem fair and equitable when the two sides meet again.
He who lives by the sword....
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BOD's cynically late tackle (v England) on Olly Morgan - while Morgan was in midair - was a disgrace, and spectacularly dangerous. This was worse given BOD's summer of bleating after Umaga's tackle on him. Worse still was BOD pestering the referee to sinbin Magnus Lund for an identical challenge on Girvan Dempsey not more than ten minutes later. Being BOD, he escaped any kind of censure and Lund received a ticking off (but no yellow).
ROG kicking out at Chris Cusiter after Cusiter had wiped him out was pathetic, as was BOD's now standard slapping of Euan Murray and Chris Paterson. The slapping is just embarrassing but kicking out at a player who is not watching is potentially serious and should be clamped down on.
Nathan Hines thumping tackle on O'Gara at 80 mins was entirely legal - one Irish newspaper laughably referred to the tackle as illegal - but fearsome. The huge upper body thump is a feature of pro rugby now and perfectly legal (see 90% of Jason White hits).
As for standing on somebody, if there had been more stamping on the well publicised Irish 'cheating' at breakdowns, then they'd be sitting on 2 or perhaps 3 losses so far. The Irish played Wales with slowing down the Welsh ball illegally being worn as a badge of honour. Rugby suffers from such gamesmanship but needn't do - very easy to justify rucking a cheat out of the way. Either that or start brandishing yellow cards to the culprits (ie the cheats slowing the ball down).
So yes, you should be able to stand on somebody.
On a side issue, anybody fancy addressing how Hines was sinbinned on Saturday but the Irish have so far not received one yellow card in the 6N? We're not seriously giving the paddies kudos for cheating now are we?! Anyone argue against this, read Stephen Jones's excellent match report on the Sunday Times website.
PS ROG was officially not choked. Eddie O'Sullivan and any other accuser, now have the courtesy to front up and apologise or name your culprit. Unprecedentedly shameful behaviour from the Irish.
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I would agree with the general sentiment that trying to injure an opponent through foul play is wrong. I played a lot of rugby and football when I was younger and looking back on it now most of the injuries I received with an oval ball in my hand were accidental whilst with a round ball at my feet about half were caused by malicious actions by an opponent. It is important that rugby retains its physical element and its edge but because of these elements it is important that any violence outside the rules is dealt with severely!
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103 - great stuff, Frank. As the citing commissioner, the BBC, the SRU and IRU all found no evidence of choking, the next game should be played in the genial spirits we expect 6N rugby to be played in.
What a ridiculous post! There are no Irish players who have come out to back Eddie O'Sullivan, so there are no witnesses. Any 'lives by the sword' comments are therefore unjustified.
The Scots will hopefully exact revenge on the footballers mentality creeping into the rather too smug Irish camp when next we meet, and do all of world rugby a service.
Hey, let's hope Italy do it first before the standard Irish humbling in the World Cup gives Eddie O'Sullivan is ultimate punishment.
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I am an English fan, and have no bias to either side. Some of the rubbish being spouted here is ridiculous though, there is no middle ground!
Someone may have choked RO'G, either by accident or on purpose. If on purpose then if the Ireland players 'know' who it is, they should name names. Why not? It is a disgrace, if it occurred. In response to the poster suggesting Scotland's silence is the same as admitting the crime - then the converse argument - is that if Ireland are sure, they should be able to name the player. I think O'Sullivan has handled it completely the wrong way and should have gone through the authorities/kept it private with Scotland until the matter is resolved, then name and shame.
Personally I think it is probably an accident, maybe a Scot lying on O'Gara and not moving quickly/being able to move, but causing damage nonetheless. I find it very hard to believe the perpetrator would choke (for a prolonged period!) an opposition player, with his team mates around able to see in numbers and with lots of different camera angles to replay.
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Lemme see...
There is no TV proof that any Scot did anything to ROG on the floor...
We have EOS bleating that someone tried to kill ROG...
Show us the proof EOS or APOLOGISE!
If there is proof, then the player concerned should be dealt with by both the SRU and Lothian & Borders Police.
However if no proof is forthcoming then EOS must apologise publicly to the Scottish team. However he does not strike me as the humble sort.
(On a playing note - if I had seen anyone 'choking' a team mate, then my intervention would have been instant and very physical)
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I think it is time for the international level of rugby to have two on field referee's, one each specializing for forwards and backs.
Small, tactical, but illegal infringements not caught occur regularly in set plays, and rucks and mauls, in the dominantly forward areas of the game. These infringements often appear to affect players by causing frustration and increased aggression between opponents resulting in violence at the extreme.
Current int. rugby referees are without doubt superb at there job, being honest, intellectual, and a great asset to the game. Having two on-field though, would make the game safer still.
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Several points.
Firstly, if O'Sullivan claims that it was "the talk of the dressing room", then why hasn't a single irish player come out to the media and agreed with him?? Not even Brian O'Driscoll backed up his own coach.
Secondly, Nathan Hines put in a huge tackle on O'Gara and knocked him to the ground. The TV replays show that Hine's head is roughly in line with O'Gara's shins; how could he possibly have his hands or arms around O'Gara's neck from this position? It's physically impossible. Nevermind the fact that 3 more irish players collapse on top of O'Gara in the following ruck.
Thirdly, if anything did happen, a player would have seen it and would have started a pretty large fight with the Scotland player.
Fourthly, the citing commissioner also saw nothing. Neither did the referee, the linesmen or any other player or spectator. That makes 67,534 people who saw nothing.
Eddie O'Sullivan should be absolutely ashamed of himself, for bringing the game into disrepute. It is clear from his media releases that by Sunday evening he was trying to backtrack and put the owness on the scotland player to come forward. Cowardly behaviour from a coach looking to paper over the cracks. I have lost all respect for him.
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What is acceptable violence?
It depends entirely on who the perpetrator is. Any act of violence committed by a New Zealander is perfectly ok, it seems. The disgraceful targetting of Brian O'Driscoll on the last Lions' Tour is typical of the carte blanche that New Zealand teams have always enjoyed.
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if the lad had died would it still be ok? do not like the 'win at all costs' mentality one bit.
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Well, well. There really are a number of bitter and twisted Scots out there. Ireland played very poorly on Saturday but guess what lads- we still beat you. Where does that leave you? This Scottish team has absolutely no attacking options and the long term outlook is abysmal and you know it. With regard to the O'Gara incident, 2 points. Firstly, it is extremely rare to see a player unconcious and blue on the pitch- a fuss should be made and all avenues explored to resolve it. If it was simply caused by bodies or an arm on top of O'Gara, how many blue players would we see every weekend- seriously??? Secondly, if it was deliberate, the Scottish player knows there is no tv evidence and therefore who actually expects him to come forward- he has already proven himself a coward. The first ruck in the world cup warm up game will be very interesting- thats if he has the balls to play.
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I hope the link "complain about this post" works as there many Irish posts who appear disinterested in proof and should be banned from the site. Eddie O'Sullivan should be asked to name the players who have provided sufficient evidence to make these claims, and he should be asked firmly by IRB and Six Nations to provide that name. We can then move forward and attempt to discover if anything ilegal has happened. If any of the larger forwards in the Scotland team were trapped on top of Ronan I believe that would be rather uncomfortable. Remember he is one of the smallest players in world rugby (and my wife believes is rather good looking.) i'm sure many rugby players have felt trapped in rucks to some extent and I'm sure many have also suffered knee injuries from these being held and forced in positions they are not meant to withstand, so this could easily happen with other areas of the body, aka the neck/throat. The throat is obviously more serious and I'm sure more fragile. Please can this close all outrageous posts from the Irish contingent.
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Charlie at #106, God help you, you poor wretch. Your one-sided biased and myopic polemic would be hilarious if it was not so misleading and blatantly so anti Irish. It spells out: I HATE IRISH RUGBY PLAYERS AND TEAMS AND I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU AND YOUR PERCEIVED MISDEMEANOURS!!!
People have severely criticised EOS for his claim that ROG was assaulted and nearly choked deliberately in a ruck without naming the individual, and nany ask: how come the Irish players didn't react at the time by laying into the culprit?
Here is a scenario that may answer this question: The Irish players saw an individual moving onto ROG in the ruck and knew who he was. He was initially low down on ROG but as the players piled in he was shifted forward to where his hand/arm was beside ROG's neck. He took the opportunity to have a go at the outhalf under cover of a ruck. The Irish players did not suspect what he was doing to ROG until they saw the result of his handiwork. ROG may not have known who his assailant was but was completely convinced that this Scottish player was deliberately and aggressively attempting to choke him, and, lets face it, I think you would know.
So its probably a combination of ROG's word on the crime and the players word on the identity. Not enough for a court of law probably, because before you can name someone you need to be able to prove beyond doubt that it did happen and there was intent. Film evidence would be required. Serious circumstantial evidence may not be enough.
But in my opinion it needed to be highlighted. Maybe EOS could have addressed it differently, but he was being honest in his approach I believe. If one player is getting Scottish rugby a bad name then don't shoot the messenger, but deal with the issue.
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So was it Darth Vader that choked ROG from the stands?
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As I watched the game, which I had taped, I noticed that the commentators knew nothing of what was happening despite the group huddling around the physios and O'Gara. I thought this was odd that no one seemed to notice that something was going on. Just an observation.
I am also a fan of Paterson, even though Ireland is my team. I felt that his cheap shot in the first half which set off O'Driscoll was out of character. Also on O'Driscoll's part as well, since he is usually a class act. I think some poor performances recently may have shortened the Scottish fuses.
I think that the rest of us can get over whatever happened, either accidental or not, if O'Gara can get over it too. And it doesn't hurt us Irish fans to push for a Scottish victory next week.
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Case closed. The IRFU have said that they accept the decision of the match commissioner and now consider the matter closed. If someone did do something malicious i'm sure it will come out in the wash and that person will be dealt with by the authorities.
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"why hasn't a single Irish player come out to the media and agreed with him (Eddie)?" - check out the IRFU website - irishrugby.ie where you will find an interview with David Wallace...
As for why none of the lads went after the Scottish players, maybe they were too concerned for their fellow player to bother with petty retribution?
As has been said above, Eddie would not make such statements unless he was sure - he may be an ass at times but not to that degree!
I sincerely hope that this is a misunderstanding as I would hate to think any rugby player capable of such atrocious behaviour.
And us being over-hyped? It is the sign of a good team to play badly and still win. Scotland didn't threaten our line and apart from Lamont, never showed signs of the possibility.
However, I do hope they give France a good challenge this weekend and maybe even turn them over!
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The laws of the game are rigid enough with regards to violence on the rugby field and the citing commissions, with the exception of a few biased decisions here and there, are effective. What should not be allowed are the nonsensical ramblings of Irish coaches!! It appears that no Scottish players saw this incident, no Irish players saw this incident, no cameras saw this incident and even Eddie admits he didn't see this incident. This leads me to two conclusions. One: O'Gara choked on his own gum shield. Two: Eddie is desperately trying to divert attention away from the fact that his team were woefully inadequate and had they not been playing Scotland, would have been spanked!
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So the match commissioner is not citing anyone.... therefore the scot must be innocent.
I mean tana umaga was never cited for the incident against BOD therefore he was innocent. QED? i think not.
This is one of those cases which is not clear. But just because it wasnt proven on camera does not mean it was an accident, just like it doesnt mean it was deliberate. Only the players on both sides truly know.
As for Charlie (no.106), i think you may be the one person in the world who thinks that BOD is cynical - no one else spotted any of these 'misdemeanors' he supposedly committed? And bleating all summer about Umagas cowardice? if i recall correctly, he forgave Tana and always said that he hoped it was not deliberate.
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All that matters nowadays is that no matter what cheating goes on (e.g. New Zealand/Irish hands in the ruck, Wales getting a raw deal EVERY game infact) the IRB don't pick up on it until too late for example Bergamasco. Theres a different rulebook for every rugby match played now. A blessing in disguise infact seeing as Wales might have to rest Steven Jones for saturday . . .
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Regards the alleged choking incident, since there has been no proof to substantiate EOS and his slanderous allegations. Surely the IRB should step in and charge him and the so called witnesses with bringing the game in to disrepute.
Remember EOS was part of the Lions management that carried out the witch hunt on Tana Umaga.
Maybe the IRFU will be appointing Alistair Campbell as their PR guru.
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One thing that everyone has overlooked. Do even 1 of the Scottish players have a reputation for violence ? I believe not, and therefore its highly unlikely that they would start now. Highly unlikely. In fact if u think about it in a ruck which goes down that fast it would probably be damn near impossible to get your arm round someones throat and not get noticed either on camera or when the ruck broke up. Thats why this is BS.
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turn the cameras off and let them get into it. this is not a game for girls.
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Larry @ 117
Can you also explain how JFK really was killed and by whom....Di and Dodi....Mother Theresa and even my Granny I would like an answer to all these killings?
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Comment 64. Sam
You say that you are 16 and that you have always been brought up that somebody on the wrong side should get a shoeing.
You are clearly being coached by the sort of coaches that should be removed from the game and not allowed anywhere near children. In my view any coach who actively encourages this sort of behaviour is guilty of indirect child abuse.
That may seem harsh but think through certain points. You are still a child and your "always brought up" means that this was occuring when you were a younger child playing against other young children. I have seen myself coaches condoning and encouraging this in mini and midi rugby. Pretty often there are children playing who are new to the game and might only have been involved for a few weeks. And yes, they end up lying on the wrong side of rucks but more often that not because they just don't know they are doing anything wrong. Or they haven't learnt yet how to do do anything about it with people on their feet rushing in around them. So a few weeks into a playing a new sport they receive a "kicking" for no reason they understand and more importantly often witnessed by their watching parents who don't understand either. And so they are lost to the sport forever.
I am sick of the attitude that you (increasingly often) hear from youth coaches that it's a hard, physical man's game. There is no doubt that it is a hard physical game and that is the attraction. I always encourage the children I coach to play with aggression but I always stress it has to be controlled aggression. It is precisely because it is a hard physical game that the laws have to be observed and players have to control themselves. it is that which keeps a hard game safe.
Oh, and by the way; giving a shoeing to another child diminishes you as a person and a player.
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Ive been asking myself the same question after watching the glos tigers match when the touch judge came in complaining that a tigers player had shoved a glos man in fact he put his hand up to stop himself crashing into him result penalty. Had i switched channels was i watching soccer or basketball no this was rugby. Mindless violence has to be stopped but come on big blokes playing a physical game the odd blow is going to land so live and let live and unless its life threatning or aimed at the head let it go.
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I just need to say that the media band wagon based on biased opinions has forced a citing officer to look at the Bergamassco incident. There is absolutely no case to answer. I've looked at it in slow mo many times. Jones clashes heads with one of his own players - that is how he cut his eye. bergamassco entered the ruck and used his arms in a sweeping motion to clear jones away. The fist wasnt clenched. the arm did not touch Jones' face. he drove Jones off the ruck - the only possible danger was his arm rode up to Jones neck but at this point he stopped driving. This has been brought about by Jiffy getting very excited and everyone else jumping on the bandwagon. I wish I could call the citing officer myself to defend the lad who was motm by a long way. Pity because Jiffy usually is the best of the BBC crew.
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There's an important point that's hardly getting a mention here. Professional rugby is an entertainment business. It's World Cup year, the game wants to market itself to get more & more players and especially fans for the future.
How many parents will want their kids to play, if the world's most famous players can be killed or maimed live on TV? Same goes for punching, stamping, gouging ... The future of the game's popularity is threatened by this sort of thing, and the authorities need to do something about it.
A lot of people talk about it being a man's game, and I'm sure many club players enjoy going "beyond the rules" every Saturday. But the reality is: the game isn't just about you any more. It's television entertainment. And there are a lot more viewers who don't want to sit next to their son on the couch and watch someone being punched or gouged or choked on TV.
I think the game has to be cleaned up more and more, or else it risks losing fans. At the end of the day it's just good business sense.
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In response to the last comment, I agree that young players in club rugby should not be encouraged to shoe, but at certain levels it does begin to become acceptable. This is not determined by age but by the competativeness. Take the U15 daily mail cup, (a competition entered by major rugby schools in england) and killing the ball by players can be a major problem for afree flowing game. They all know what they are doing at this level and so in this case i believe shoeing them off the ball becomes acceptable.
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I can't believe some of you guys are advocating retribution on who is perceived to be responsible. Assuming whatever resulted in O'Gara's injury was an accident, does this warrant a violent vigilante response? If it was deliberate, who is willing to carry out a pre-meditated revenge attack which could result in a death or serious injury? We are on very dangerous ground with some of the irresponsible comments I have read.
There is no proof of wrong doing so we must accept it was an accident and move on.
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This may be a bit controversial, but many children and young people find sports as an outlet for their aggression, whether it is rugby, football, boxing or any other sport. The feeling of running fast, scoring a try etc. is exhilarating. Sports can be used to control aggression within a child, to let them express their feelings in a controlled environment, rather than out on the town with a knife in their hand. Don't get me wrong, it is not a final solution to violence on the street, but it does help.
The issue is the control. The rules are there to control the sport. If you want to cause minimal injury, play tag rugby. If you want to avoid serious neck injuries, introduce laws to reduce the impact at the scrum, outlaw spear tackles and make high tackles illegal. I think that the laws of rugby have evolved sensibly and there should not be a knee-jerk reaction to incidents within the media that would reduce the competitiveness of the game. It is things such as eye-gouging that need to be removed from the sport. Eye-gouging is not aggressive, it is cowardly and anyoen found guilty should be heavily punished.
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violence is NOT acceptable. it isn't boxing. the rules of the game does not allow for punching, bitting choking or stamping. rugby is physical, but i know from playing that some players use violence to affect changes in certain players. only the most partial person could say that O'Gara was not targeted. Cussiter and Patterson both went in with unnecessary tackles. for my part, this has changed my opinion of the scottish team. this was cowardly and the fact that they are hiding behind the fact that no camera picked it up [why would they given it happened under about 10 men] is quite frankly disgusting. i hope the french post a cricket score against you and that you will now become the new wales of world rugby
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I can only thank the BBC, for what was one of the best weekend's rugby i have had the pleasure to watch in some time. The coverage was outstanding along with the commentary. Let's leave the refereeing to the people who know what they are doing and not us arm chair pundits. Once again thanks BBC, keep up the good work.
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When I played, admittadly only up to Colts level, if I got myself on the wrong side I would expect (and accept) a shoeing to get me out of the way. It was all part and parcel of a disruptive back-rowers play and what ou got for slowing down the ball. Once you got trodden on you knew it was time to move and did so.
The real problem is that top flight rugby is much more lenient at the ruck than at lower levels and so the international player plays at a lower skill level at the breakdown than teenagers. Rules about handling on the floor and going over the top are all let to pass and make it easier for a team to retain ball they should have lost, the number of times a player turned in the tackle has manged to move the ball in the ruck in top level rugby is to high to count. The ref in one of the games this weekend even said of a ruck that the ball wasn't out since the player in the ruck was still holding it (surely that would be handling in the ruck). The IRB don't need to change the rules at the ruck/maul to improve the game they just need to implement the rules to make it flow better and better to watch.
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Perhaps Ronan tried to strangle himself! He has self harmed before during the lions tour of Aus where he repeatadly beat himself in the face with his own fist until the lads dragged him off!
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There should be no above the shoulders or dumping ppl get killed that way, rugby for all its heavy contact has always been an example in world sports as far as sportsmanship is concerned but being honest tempers do flare in a charged physical atmosphere, professional players caught deliberatly using dirty and dangerous tactics should be banned from the game.
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If Irish players have seen the supposed perpetrator of the incident then go to the police, give an eye-witness statement and jobs done. The Scottish player will be tried in a court of law, and if found guilty, sentenced.
If not willing to give a statement SHUT THE F*** UP.
If it was deliberate I would never condone choking, but unless the Irish players who say they witnessed the incident go to the police then no more statements whould be forthcoming from them.
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I've seen a similar incident at a London Wasps match when one of the Exiles Twins had his hand to the wasps player's throat. The incident was ignored by all officials despite the fact the fact it was clearly seen as the guy kneeling down pressing down on the throat (neither had the ball either). There's accidental damage and then there's over excitement and willing to damage. I hope O'Gara is ok, he's a brilliant player.
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I played most of my rugby at hooker and very soon discovered the importance of shinpads.
To bring a little balance here, in the twilight of ruck, scrum and maul its very much a case of survival of the toughest but lets not forget that these guys are built to give and receive that kind of honest thuggery.
The line is crossed when professional careers are threatened through dirty play. I am talking about stamping on knees, gouging, spear and high tackles. Also the hitting of players in the air.
I cannot and will not believe that a rugby player would deliberately try to kill an opponent but, having been at the bottom of a ruck myself, I can understand how players can come close to suffocation, particularly if they are struggling for breath when they enter (panic doesn't help either.
That said the game seems to be drifting towards non contact with some refereeing decisions in the ruck area and lineouts.
Lying offside in a ruck is almost worth the risk if you can get a penalty and sinbinning through the legitimate attempt of rucking out (Chabal rolled around like a footballer after he was "removed" once on Sunday but got up right as rain when he realised that the linesman was having none of it).
The lineout is another, if you can't touch a player in the air, how do you compete?. Yet we rarely see penalties for taking out the supporting player which is far more dangerous.
I'm starting to rant now so I'm going to finish on a have a heart for the officials comment.
Bergamasco's "punch" looked more like a swinging arm to me albeit just as dangerous and just as illegal. I initially thought it was ok until I saw it again in slow motion several times.
The linesman and referee did not get that opportunity. That's why we have a citing commissioner.
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Real violence as opposed to physicality is unacceptable...but these things are always viewed through a prism of national bias. I remember being in New Zealand when England's Simon Shaw was sent off for a an offence that was virtually invisible and which the victim didn't even feel. Yet New Zealanders were talking in terms of lifetime bans for dangerous play. Reminding them of some of the AB's notorious stamping incidents (JPR Williams, Phil de Glanville, Kyran Bracken etc.)illicited the "well it's a man's game" line without a hint of irony at the double standard.
As a former player I find it very hard to believe that a player would deliberately attempt to choke another. As an Englishman I would also invite EOS to reflect on the number of contusions and concussions handed out by his pack two weeks ago at Croke Park before flinging out serious allegations. Perhaps time to reflect on the relative hue of his pot and his kettle.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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agree with most bloggers. No violence but aggression aimed at achieving the objectives of the game is what makes Rugby what it is and should not be stopped. We now live in a society where the predominant theme is that people need to be protected from themselves and any and all risk. this is an impossible dream and by pursuing it we are creating and impossibe, repressed and closed society. result? more explosions of unexplainable violence, the exact opposite of what was intended. People like to take risks with their personal safety and Rugby is and has always been a vehicle for the release of aggression which I think is an important human need. The attempts to take this out of the game have resulted in the creatuion of too many rules which players can not hope to follow in a fast paced game. This diminishes it as a spectacle as well as making it over technical, too stop start and at worst a game where the result can depend on referees guesswork and inconsistent interpretation(eg I think most collapsed scrum penalties are pure guesswork or another example, if you're coming into a ruck at speed against one opposition player who is on the floor you are supposed to make contact with your shoulders higher than your hips - how on earth can you do that ? but that's what the laws say and its just stupid!). Do we want it to end up like American Football? we are going that way. Association football for example has very few basic and simple to understand rules. Every player on the pitch knows what they are and can manage them during the game. Rugby used to be like that. Let's get back to it. End of Rant!!
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I have watched the replay on this and it is quite disturbing, the game as whole was pretty clean except for Patterson's shoulder charge on O'Gara which got O'Driscoil so charged up. Regarding O'Gara, watching the replay in slow motion you can see him struggling at the bottom of the rook,until he sunddenly goes limp, he was ok when he went down first. Secondly when the players get up there is only one player lying on top of O'Gara and he should have rolled away after the tackle was made.
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Having played rugby for over forty years my view is that violence must not be tolerated. Rugby is a very physical game which is part of its attraction, but it is essential have respect for one's opponents. As far as rucking players is concerned I think it has always been illegal since it constitutes dangerous play. If someone is the wrong side, it is up to the referee to penalise them and/or use the sin bin. The modern game is far cleaner than it used to be, which is a good thing, but there is still a long way to go witness the Bergamasco punch on Saturday, the tackle on Skrela on Sunday where the English player deliberately wrapped his legs round Skrela to bring him down and of course the All Blacks off the ball antics in any match.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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Post 129.
Firstly congratulations for being a coach and giving something to the game. I also agree with you regarding the “it’s a man’s game” mentality. Usually this is a cover for some cowardly act like punching someone in the head. If people wish to do that they should take up boxing.
However, I must take issue with your condemnation of rucking. The very first thing I was taught when I started playing was that if you find yourself in the wrong place come ruck time it hurts. An object lesson speeds this process up. A blight of today’s game is players getting on the wrong side and then holding their arms up to avoid being penalised. If a team persuades such a player to move away by rucking legitimately I see no issue with it at any level. Stamping however a la Troncon this weekend should never be tolerated.
Finally if you don’t like being hurt or physically challenged, rugby is not the game for you.
As for the object of your post Sam. Harsh to pick on an individual for a start. I’d say that belittling a 16 year on a public forum does you no great credit either.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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“It is perfectly acceptable, for example, to be seen to be exerting extreme physical pressure on an opponent in an attempt to gain possession of the ball, but not wilfully or maliciously to inflict injury.”
So it says on the very first page of the rugby law book. When you have a sport based on this basic principle, then values and the ethical conduct of players, coaches and referees become central to how the game is to be played.
This, to my mind, boils to down to three very simple words; honesty, bravery, and equity. It is the opposite of these words, which rugby, indeed any sport must do without, cowardice, deceit and unfairness.
For example, a player attacking a ruck at full physical intensity to clear out players and dislodge the ball is honest, brave and fair. The player who joins the ruck to stamp at a prone opponent on the ground is cowardly, deceitful and unfair.
The game of rugby does not want the cowards, the liars and the cheats.
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Until this 6N Eddie O'Sullivan seemed a good and level headed coach. But over the last 6 weeks he has turned into Rugby's Jose Morinho; now complete with dogmatic accusations of misdeeds that he later has to admit that he couldnot possibly have seen. (And which the BBC and the Citing Commissioner fails to see after hours in front of TV monitors!)I hope it's due to the stress of Ireland being favorites for the tournament and he will soon be back to his old self.
I can't quite understand the citing of Bergamasco and not Troncon. It seemed to me that the more the Bergamasco incident was replayed the more equivocal the video evidence seemed.Whilst footage of Troncon deliberately stamping on an oponent was clear as could be; the proverbial smoking gun. Clearly the citing officer sees things differently. I can't help thinking that he may be influenced by the damage done to the victim or the level of fuss made over the incidents rather than the evidence. On balanced I'd have cited both players.
It does seem that the players, coaches, commentators, fans and the media could all do with spending the modest sum required to obtain a copy of the laws of Rugby Union from the IRB. Then we could have less of the nonsense about stamping being allowed if the ball is nearby, if the player on the ground is in the way etc. The relevant rule clearly states that a player must not deliberately tread on another player. Which imposes a duty on players to try to avoid doing so. That is why refs are trying to be strict about players staying on their feet and rolling away from the tackle area so that rucks can develop without bodies in the way.
Going back to O'Sullivan. If he coached his players to release the ball/tackled player and roll away and to stay on their feet when joining rucks, as the laws require, then it will be less likely that someone like O'Gara will be crushed by those piling in at the breakdown.
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What are people views on the Scotland no 17 punching Donncha Callaghan just as ROG is tackled. Closed fist straight to the face. Is that acceptable?
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I thought these blogs were supposed to be monitored. I also thought in the UK you are innocent until proved guilty. Looks like approx 30% of the bloggers think the reverse. If th