As long as Wales beat the English
- 15 Mar 07, 10:51 AM
Cardiff - I took a fair bit of abuse in a previous blog as people seemed to think that my desire to see Wales beat England made me some sort of atavistic cave dweller.
With the big Cardiff showdown now looming large, I’m still clearly smarting as I’ve decided to revisit the touchy subject.
Now I don’t believe that a win over our oldest rivals should be Wales’ ultimate ambition, or that it would completely make up for a dismal Championship for Gareth Jenkins’ team. But it would set the world to rights, if only for a short while – and here’s why…
My early memories of Wales v England games throughout the ‘70s and even the ‘80s were based around the simple assumption of Welsh victory.
I can still remember the feeling of bemusement as the media built up England as favourites ahead of the Twickenham clash in 1988. I just expected Wales to win. And they did.
But some sort of horrible historical aberration after that sent England on the path to world domination and turned their meetings with Wales into an annual torment.
There have been just four matches to lift the despair in those long 19 years since, and on each occasion my celebrations have had to be somewhat curtailed.
1989, Wales 12-9 England
A sixth-form trip with my Roman Catholic school to a monastic retreat in Kintbury (near Hungerford) was the somewhat unlikely venue as Wales – now huge underdogs - defended their 26-year unbeaten Arms Park record against the growing England juggernaut.
I’d somewhat foolishly signed up for the weekend without realising Wales were playing (hey, we live by our mistakes…), but was later assured that I could see the match.
On arrival on Friday evening, we quickly realised that our monastic hosts’ plans for a spiritual and cleansing weekend had made no provision for an orgy of Anglo-Welsh rivalry.
But collective sulking and pages of fervent messages in the retreat’s prayer book pleading for the TV room to be unlocked finally produced the miracle we needed.
Having shockingly missed the anthems and the first 10 minutes of the game, we were finally rewarded when Mike Hall delivered perhaps the greatest try in Welsh history (I only wonder why he never made a career out of basketball…).
But post-match celebrations were somewhat sober.
1993, Wales 10-9 England
Sixth form behind, I had started Swansea University in 1991 – and endured two years of Five Nations torment from my new-found English friends!
What was worse, none of them were even rugby fans. The only game that interested them was seeing their team give Wales increasingly predictable hammerings.
Now Five Nations days were always one of the highlights of the social calendar, a lively day in JC’s bar on campus followed by a trip to the Mumbles Mile.
But this time I was unable to face another ritual humiliation at the hands of the men in white and decided to head home to Tredegar, carrying the usual bin bag full of dirty washing for my mum.
As Ieuan Evans roared past a dumbfounded Rory Underwood, my parents’ living room seemed a lonely place, and even a spectacular home-cooked meal was slim consolation.
I couldn’t even text the Saeson in Swansea with my thoughts. Mobile phones had yet to be invented in Wales.
1999, Wales 32-31 England
In the summer of 1998 I was somehow given a job with a publishing firm in England, my prejudices clearly cooled enough in the close-season to make me seem like a reasonable human being.
Living in a rancid shared house in Stroud and lodging with a fervent Gloucester supporter was not a good environment to be in as Wales kicked off their Championship with losses against Ireland and Scotland.
Things got better with the wins over Italy and France, but a tactical retreat to the parental home in Llangors again seemed to be the best option before a ‘home’ game against a seemingly unstoppable England side at Wembley.
I confess to being somewhat excited as Scott Gibbs waltzed over for his famous score.
But when I arrived back at the cold house in Stroud that Sunday night there was no sign of the Gloucester fan.
2005, Wales 11-9 England
As Wales began their much-anticipated 2005 campaign I was living in Cardiff - almost within ear-shot of the Millennium Stadium – and working as a sports reporter for BBC Wales.
The atmosphere had been building for weeks, you could taste it in the air.
But when Gavin Henson memorably turned Mathew Tait into hand luggage and sent over his superb match-winning penalty, I was four miles from the action in the office in Llandaff.
As the mother of all parties kicked off in the city centre, I was preparing the post-match quotes for the website and Ceefax. Ah, the glamour of the BBC…
So, with a weekend off to look forward to, if Wales win you’ll have to forgive me if I’m seen round the streets of Cardiff in a somewhat excitable state.
But I have the nagging fear that Wales’ next win over the men in white will have to wait until I’m again safely away from anywhere entertaining.
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Don't worry about wanting to beat the English. Every other team in the UK wants to beat them too. Problem is they are bloody hard to beat at times.
I think the emphasis on wanting a win this Sat is not only about beating England, it's about winning a game in the 6 nations. Wales have had a terrible run and they need a victory to boost their confidence. I've never seen a Wales team so downtrodden as they were after defeat to Italy (dodgy ending aside).
Good luck to the Welsh. I hope they pick their game up and make it a good contest. Nothing worse than watching rugby games that have no competition & one team just gets hammered. Apart from Ireland v England of course :-).
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Fond memories for you but its true. The Welsh will think the season is ok if they beat England.
Wales v England games at Cardiff is the game of the championship IMHO and is the one I look forward to the most. Whatever happens during the 6 Nations you just know the Welsh can find 2 more gears against us.
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As someone whose first rugby memories are of the same vintage as yours (the '78 grand slam and Gareth Edwards' retirement is what I think I can dimly remember), I entirely sympathise with your point of view. Wales beating England is not really about beating the old enemy (although there is something in that); nor is it only about the triumph of the underdog, speed and guile against brawn and apparent arrogance. It's really about the natural order of things being restored, God being in his heaven and the sun shining like it did when you were six.
For the same reason I want England to beat Australia at cricket and Liverpool to win football matches. 2005 was certainly a good year for sport.
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This is truly a sad posting. Why is it you guys only want to beat England? Do you not realise that you will never become a world force in Rugby again until you stop this miopic view of life. Frankly, and I speak as an England supporter, beating us is not that important. Beating the ABs now that is an acheivement! It just shows a lack of ambition. The reason why Martin Johnson's team deserved the world cup is because they did beat the southern hemisphere teams home and away and that is how I will measure the present England team. To be honest the match against Wales is only a stepping stone.
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I notice that all the scorelines in the games you have highlighted have an average difference of 2.
Not trying to cause too much disharmony, but that is not very impressive.
I know, I know, a win is a win, victory is victory, but my question is, will Wales ever be really good enough to "stuff" England?
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Correct me if I am wrong, but Italy were not part on the "Five Nations" in 1999 were they?
So is this correct...
"Things got better with the wins over Italy and France"
Great article by the way though, I would love to see Wales beat the English, we need it!!!!
Gav
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perhaps that's the answer.
Go mad on the Twickers weeks and book yourself into rehab for the following year!
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I agree, a dismal season can not be erased if Wales win in Cardiff. But it will help soothe the sores a bit eh? My biggest memory was moving from Wales to England as a kid. No-once I knew cared about rugby. However they always seemed to take great fun in ribbing me stupid when England won and especially when it was by large margins. So I remember that when Wales beat England and for me it's always the most satisfying of results. So, as long as we beat the English, I don't mind.
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I was also bought up with many defeats at the hands of the Welsh in the 70's and 80's.coupled with this was two school coaches BOTH Welsh.However the tide turned and St George slaughtering the dragon became the name of the game in 90's and 00's.Now we both play to our strenghths anything can happen.But I know after the occasional joy of winning grand slams and more recently Johhny, that kick and World Cup -there is only one thing that matters to me ......WE BEAT THE WELSH
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For goodness' sake, we don't ONLY want to beat England. But beating England means the most to any Welshman. And Irishman. And Scot. And Australian. And German. And Frenchman. There's nothing wrong with that! If anything, it means the ridiculous hype that surrounds any England team will be contained. Would England rather beat France, or Fiji..?
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Robert,
Read the third sentence again, then lighten up a bit. After the campaign we've had, it's all about crumbs of comfort. Let me guess : you're English, aren't you ?
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Robert, I agree totally. I was about to write the same thing.
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I think Robert that your posting demonstrates exactly why, not just the welsh, but every other nation in any sport in the world loves to beat the English. Your arrogance and ability to view everything that is not an anglo-saxon ideal as inferior is evident whenever you open your mouths. If you think that's rubbish then just ask the Scots, Irish, French, Australians, Kiwis, Germans, Indians, Pakistanis ... the list goes on
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Re: Robert #1.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the reigning world champions? Or have I just woken up from a nightmare that has lasted 4 years?
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Robert takes Welsh rantings about England too seriously. There is a strong sense of irony about our apparent hatred of all things English. When Chris White blew his whistle to end the game in Rome I burst out laughing. Here was another wonderful example of English perfidy that we can drag up in the near and distant future to justify our anti-Anglo attitude. In reality the outrage at what was in all honesty an outrageously cowardly decision was tempered by our knowledge that we should not need that sort of decision in order to beat a team like Italy (if it had been the world cup final, on the other hand..................). We really do know that it is the World Cup that counts and it is when we make the semi-final and England don't that the real sense of our progress as a team will be acknowledged. We all need to wait unti September before judging where we are.
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Wow that's pathetic. Gavin Henson picked up a 12 stone 18 year old centre and dropped him. Yeah that truly was a spectacular victory, well done. I think it's pretty poor how you crow on about all these 'memorable' victories from 'great' Welsh sides. Hate to say it, but none of those winning sides in the last 15 years for Wales are as 'legendary' as you might think, they are nowhere near the class of the 1991 or especially 2002/03 England teams.
Sad thing is Wales might be able to beat some big teams if they didn't put so much emphasis on beating a (currently) very average England side.
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Interesting. Nice to see how the 2005 notions of the current side going onto another period of greatness have descended back into small minded provincialism.
I guess I've been watching 5 / 6 nations matches for about as long as you. My own personal favourite wins (hard to limit them to four, so I have six) are:
1991
Simon Hodgkinson kicks a record seven penalties to defeat the Welsh at Cardiff Arms Park for the first time in a million years. England's pack destroys the Welsh forwards. My father has me take a bottle of beer with a black ribbon round it to his Welsh "friend".
1997
Jeremy Guscott comes off the bench and destroys the highly feted Welsh backs with his speed and awareness in a superb second half display.
1998
England concede three tries and then destroy the Welsh with about 18 tries, Austin Healey making Neil Jenkins look like a one paced, one trick pony fly half woefully exposed out of position at full back (funny that). The ITV highlights (remember them) make the game look like an England training session.
2000
Lawrence Dallaglio drives through 14 Welshmen from 40 yards to score a memorable try, Phil Vickery dummies out of his own 22 and Neil Back drops a goal.
2001
Matt Dawson sidesteps his way to a glorious try in the Milennium stadium, Will Greenwood almost atones for his terrible bleached hair with a hat-trick.
2006
England blow the Welsh away with the worst centre partnership in their history and Ben Cohen on the wing: quite the achievement.
Apologies for absurd partizanship and what probably borders on xenophobia, and I'm sure two wrongs don't make a right, but, in the verbiage of the playground, you started it.
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I disagree with Robert(1)!
"I speak as an England supporter, beating us is not that important"
Beating England is 'very important' to Wales, just like getting a result against the French was all important to the English last weekend!
It's pointless setting sites on the ABs, if we can't get a decent run of games against lesser sides, of which England is now one!
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This is truly sad, i mean 4 wins that you are goin on about, i mean, how many times have Wales played England, really this post is sadening.i would like the bring up the destruction of the 2006 six nations match under Englands worst coach Andy Robinson, and i completely agree with what Robert said above!
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fairplay mate you really are sad! notice wales only won four games against the english in 19 years thats why you've never been world beaters! you have to be able to beat all the teams from both hemispheres!!! hint hint:- england in 2003!! but more recently- 47-13 ring any bells?!?! ;)
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How sad that you will view this 6 nations a success if you beat England, even though you lost to everyone else. I really thought this 'chip on the shoulder' mentality had been consigned to the past where it belongs. Seems I was wrong.
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Oh for god sake. Get over it! Jesus, if that's how the Welsh management think no wonder they don't (and never did) stand a chance in hell of doing well at the World Cup.
So you celebrate a 2 point win, then a year later we celebrate (though clearly not in as obsessive a way) a 47-13 thrashing.
Yet another typical blinkered Welsh fan's view. Like a younger brother aching to get one over on his elder brother but never quite managing it.
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I sympathise slightly - but not too much. From age 10 to 15 I was a lonely Sassenach (same word as sais presumably) supporter going to school in Edinburgh. Murrayfield Calcutta Cup matches were a strain - surrounded by loyal Scots I was damned if I wasn't going to cheer for England and a certain amount of rough house ensued. The going was tougher if England won and once or twice I found myself half-hoping that we'd lose.
I don't think it'll be a close game between England and Wales but I'm not totally sure which of us is going to have a long afternoon.
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This article seems to support the fact that Celt teams only seem completley driven and motivated when playing England? Look at Ireland, lots of talent great chance to win a grand slam and blow it (again) because of a lack lusture showing against France and very lucky not to lose to Scotland?
Italy are a much more dangerous prospect than Wales or Scotland right now, perhaps its the weight of expectation that leads to such under achievment or maybe its simply the chips on their shoulders?
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I agree, what a dire posting. Please get over it.Why bother go back to remember the last four Welsh victories over England? Do you ever hear England fans bragging that they thrashed the defending Grand slam champs Wales by 40 points last year? No- England have bigger fish to fry.The Celtic Nations should see winning against the home nations as a stepping stone for the World Cup and SH tours- not the be all and end all. When Wales won the grand slam, they could have really built and developed - now look what's happening:they are staring a wooden spoon in the face- end of chat. By the way, someone please tell me the last time a Celtic Nation won an away Test(or series) against a SH team.
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Calm down everyone. It's just a light hearted look at the Anglo-Welsh rivalrys, just a bit of a joke that's all. Still - England to win by 15 points.
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There is nothing wrong with what he says. Every country has 1 or 2 countries in particular that they want to beat (a lot of them seem to want to beat England, for some reason). And he does say that:
"Now I don’t believe that a win over our oldest rivals should be Wales’ ultimate ambition, or that it would completely make up for a dismal Championship for Gareth Jenkins’ team"
It's just we are the team they want to beat, so he will be happier than if he beat someone else, say Scotland, and lost to England.
This is coming from a 3/4 English, 1/4 Welshman.
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I think you should be more concerned about finding a way out of the current Welsh woes than wallowing in former glories. Whenever do you hear about a New Zealand fan going on about that game from so and so? It's always about the present and the future, and that's a winning attitude. England dwelled on the world cup too long and it's only now we're really getting past it. It's a problem that is crippling far too many teams, especially in the home nations.
Sure, reflect on the glory days, but it's not going to stop the paralysis currently gripping Wales. As for the comments about English arrogance, how many Welsh players commented that they were a better team than Italy before the game and that they 'should win'? At least in public show the opposition more respect than that.
However, I do enjoy the rivalry between the two countries and I hope there's some good rugby on Saturday, but my point is, just like in England, winning one game isn't going to fix all the problems from the top downwards. I hope for the good of European rugby that we all get our acts together soon so we can offer the boys in the South a bit more opposition.
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at risk of wading into an obvious tirade on "as long as we beat the English" I think you may now find a lot of true Welsh rugby fans just wanting to see us beat decent teams. I appreciate England are in a supossed slump at the moment but they are still reigning World Champions. I am a 70's child but never saw the halycone days' of Welsh rugby. I have been treated to the late 80's 90's & 00's where we have indeed only ever scraped a win.
I want to see decent rugby and decent competition. As a Welshman Rugby is THE sport and my passion for seeing Wales win will apply to any of the top 10 ruugby nations. The reason why beating England is so special to me is that having grown up through those incessant losses against England I want to see us compete and win regularly.
Forget the criticism boys - go out and play your game....and to the English team...play like u did against France and By God the lucky 60,000 in the MS will have had their money's worth ! God Bless Rugby and all who Sail in her
ps I've had a few cheeky beers...sorry for the emotion
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Paul Williams - i totally agree. and your point is strengthened by those who think our 2 point margin victories are not significant for the english people, but of course they weren't - you were the losing side!! But those wins are the most dramatic therefore memorable. Maybe 2 point wins are not good enough for you.
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If someone mentions the tackle that Henson made on Tait one more time I shall surely scream! Tedious repetition on a grand scale.
Look he tackled him. Big deal!! Tait weighs 3 stone wet through so its hardly an earth shattering achievement.
Leave Henson to his sunbed and hair gel. Watched the guy against Sale RFC a couple of months ago. Erm, pretty crap really. Can;'t break the line.
Henson can come and play R League if he gets bored of Union. He won't be picking up 13 stone centres in that sport!!!!
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I've been to that place in Kintbury.
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Well I wouldn't like to put money on this one, Wales are going to be fired up for a win and England may be complacent.
Regardless, it would be nice if the home nations' crowds showed the same respect for the opposition and their anthems as the Irish did at Croke Park, I suspect I may be disappointed though.
And here's me, Englishman through and through married to a Welsh lass.
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I like England beating the other home nations, they like beating England. Enough said isn' it?
The stuff about arrogance is nonsense. The home nations just like hiding behind it because they think it makes it more acceptable than plain hatred.
So the French aren't arrogant? So the Germans aren't arrogant? So the Australians aren't arrogant? Get a grip.
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Paulino-that was a good laugh
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The real difference between Welsh rugy and English rugby is that in Wales rugby belongs to everyone while in England it belongs to public schools and universities - and that's why it matters.
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Funny how the long Welsh losing streak was started by the fatuous comment - post 1987 World Cup - by Clive Rowlands, the Wales Team Manager. Asked 'where do Wales go from here?' after being hammered by the All Blacks, he replied 'We go back to beating England every year'. If only he'd never made the comment.....
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Everyone always wants to beat the English, it is something that's deeply embedded within history and will probably never change.
The fact remains though that Wales will lose to England, and as long as the Welsh keep on looking back to the giddy heights of the seventies it is unlikely they will ever be good enough to consistenetly beat England again, (which sits alright with me)
Here's to a good match on Saturday; the one result we're all hoping for. ;)
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Isn't the reality that on the evidence of the 6N to date no NH team has even a remote chance of winning RWC in Oct - dont know the details of the draw but I bet SA /NZ and Aus are all in semis.
I just want to see close edgy games played to the rules (I live in the shadow of 'The Close' so cant help myself) i.e no Super 14 forward passing and knock on's please - no wonder its so fast....
My favouite game ever was during the last RWC when Wales played the AB's -I think the Taffs were robbed by poor reffin (was he S.African?). If we get anything close to the action in that game I will be happy even if Eng dont win - I think (and hope)it could be quite an open game on Sat.
Fingers crossed.
p.s Best player never to get an England call up was the legendary Eddie Saunders - unless of course you know otherwise!
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I don't know why the English get so hot and bothered about the fact that their neighbours take a lot of pleasure in beating them now and again. England have all the resources, a far bigger population than the other "home" nations combined etc etc so of course it gives pleasure on the ocassions they are brought down a peg or two. In football Manchester United (and increasingly Chelsea) are seen as the "big boys" with everything in their favour. All other clubs want to beat them and take far more pleasure in that than beating say Wigan. English fans can console themselves with the fact that most times they will triumph over their smaller neighbours. On the odd time they lose they will in all probability give that years jubilant victors a good thrashing the next time they meet. Whereas (Ireland being an exception at the moment) the other "home" nations can only dream of a possible World Cup win England have done it once and should be able to contemplate doing it again in the future. With the rugby playing populations of Scotland Ireland and Wales being so small it is only the rare exception when they can hope to have a number of world class players at any one time.
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Why , oh why, is it that everyone so badly wants to beat England ? Living in France, the 6 nations is always a painful time of year. England have never beaten France " without cheating, or kicking all their points ( boring) or without divine help "...( the skies opening up as in the last WC semi-final...
At long last, England seem to have won deservedly, and even scored more tries than the French.
My Dad used to go on and on about Wales this and Gareth Edwards that ( understandably so )... so I enjoy an English win, but we can't always be accused by everybody of arrogance. Nonsense !!! It's hard when the whole world hates you !! ( sob) It's like the Ashes and our so-called colonialist mentality. Codswallop.
Well done to the Irish, the best team around, and to the fantastic crowd attitude at Croke Park... and I am an England fan.
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Child of the 40s, passionate English rugby player/lifelong supporter, half Welsh on my mother's side.
How sad to see traditional good-natured, humourous, partisan, national support, as I remember from my playing days, become so vicious and malicious as I see in so many 6 nation blogs (some blogs for other matches are much worse than this).
This is not the traditional rugby supporter. It is more like the mindless soccer hooligan. Please don't let rugby descend to that level.
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* Darran Mather has no clue.
Leave Henson to his sunbed and hair gel. Watched the guy against Sale RFC a couple of months ago. Erm, pretty crap really. Can;'t break the line.
So you obviously didnt see him against Australia in the autumn handing off and breaking the line on a number of occasions, and against New Zealand which he did the same twice however only had 5 mins to show his class because of attitudes from people like you who dont like the fact that he is famous.
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I started watching rugby in the late sixties, as an England supporter. So my earliest memories are really of those wonderful Welsh sides that regularly beat us, and usually ended up being British Lions. They were, at the time, the most exciting team in the world. The All Blacks were the best, but the big question in those days was if they would play 9 or 10 man rugby – their three quarters were really for show (Don Clarke 6 penalties to beat the Lions’ 4 tries also comes to mind). So for me, the England Wales match is still special. No matter how the teams are doing at the time. Maybe it is just remembering my youth, but it is as serious as the Ashes!
And no, I don't mind that the rest of the world wants to beat us. Whatever their reasoning, I take it as a great compliment
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I Really dont care that much this weekend. I just want to see Jenkins gone. Unless we light up the pitch for 80 mins, Im still unhappy. Even if that does happen (which it wont), im not going to forget some of the god awful rugby I've seen Wales try and play. Im obviously nervous for our boys but for good rugby, i'll be watching Ireland.
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Your piece is a nice trip down memory lane and brings back to me many similar memories. There is no denying it the rivalry between England and Wales is fierce. The Welsh love to beat the English and the feeling is mutual. I have long ceased being shocked at the often thinly disguised contempt and loathing (certainly in sporting terms) that the Welsh and Scots reserve for the English. I just think that such long held grudges are a product of the past and the history of what are seperate nations joined together in the United Kingdom, but in terms of governance dominated in some respects by the English.
As far as the game goes if England continue as they played against France then it could be another glorious victory. Wales have home advantage and will be very fired up, so England will really need to take the game to the Welsh in the first quarter and that may well be an important period in the game. The main thing for England is to carry on in the same vein as they did against France.
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Redcoat amigo getting a bit excited there but hey
being a Welsh supporter for many a year i have seen the many lows and tbh not so many higns of Welsh rugby for 20+ years.
Wales v England this saturday should be a good contest i hope with plenty of blood and snot no doubt.
Wales have woefully underperformed yet again , which imo is due to the parochial management , how the days of Waldron and Neath seem back again , sigh.
i think a Welsh win is possible , but unless parity is achieved up front for a change , the Welsh backs will be doing a lot of tackling again.
heres hoping for a quality match this 6 nations , as up to now it has been poor fare for the fans.
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it is a light-hearted blog, taking the piss out of the welsh as much as the english-relax!
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i could not agree more with mr bull no.43 and i,m a child of the seventies
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As an ex-pat Englishman in Los Angeles, my fondest memory is last year's game. I watched it in a pub in Santa Monica, and the best bit about England's thrashing of Wales was watching Ioan Gruffydd - clad in his Welsh rugby shirt - sat in the corner looking more and more pissed off as the game wore on.
The cost, $20 - the result, wonderful - the look on Ioan's face, PRICELESS!
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One of the reasons that the Irish Welsh and Scots like beating England is that we are inundated by English media, and it is nice to hear their excuses when England lose. (and here I am using a piece of English media!!)
It also goes back to beating your neighbour, and as England is our biggest neighbour it is nice to give them a bloody nose now and then, though it is getting too frequent nowadays for us Irish. But I am sure the tide will turn and we will be the ones being beaten. Once it is "all done in the best possible taste" and we all can slag each other in the pub after the game, does it really matter?
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I reckon Wales will beat England on Saturday. Looking at both teams its a strong possibility, can't believe everyones writing off the Welsh. I'm Irish by the way. Its perfectly obvious that for the Welsh, beating England is a cultural matter and not just a matter of sport so why cant Robert and the other English here just accept that.
And can people please stop referring to Ireland / Wales / Scotland in a collective sense as 'The Celtic Nations'. Theres no attachment or loyalty at all between us in sport. Sure look at the nastyness in the Ireland Scotland game last week. Dont know why English people think its like a united block of countries with the same opinions, goals etc.
Also, someone said no NH team stands a chance of winning the WC - thats ridiculous, both France and Ireland do. Remember the Autumn anyone? How many SH do Ireland need to beat to convince you guys! NZ is next on our list.
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Love the way theres a catalogue of English supporters really taking this the wrong way. Perhaps if you hail from where I grew up where Welsh is stamped out in favour of English immigrants you'd a have a different view. Beating England is possibly the best of them all but we dont concentrate on it full stop, it just helps. Quit dragging the sport down, enjoy what (hopefully) will be an epic sporting contest and take the blog for what it really is. Good work Sean you cheered me up with the memories.
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I'm not biased in any way, My only hope is that England dish out a large helping of humble-pie to our celtic cousins (and the irony of this is that they will have a wooden spoon to eat it with!!)
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let people have their fond memories, and we english would be lying if we said we didn't enjoy beating the home nations.
it still bewilders me that the home nations turn it into a racist encounter, with all this swill about celts and anglo-saxons, though! if you do a bit of reading, you'll soon find this is all myth and historical rumour. the truth is that the british isles are peopled by folks of much the same blood and background...and, interestingly, they were originally basques, not celts! check it out, ignoranuses!
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817
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I couldn't care less, as long as England win. Welsh, Scots and Irish all as bad as each other. Years of hatred has turned me into the same as them! Sorry
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All,
The winner this Saturday should be the game of rugby. Excellent to see the Italians steadily improving. Some incredible rugby to date. Bragging rights? Not necessary. Consider; Wales without a home win against Ireland for 24 consequentive years! England without any win against Ireland since BEFORE the RWC, however, great sportsmanship from the Croke Park crowd. Once England return to winning form I hope that they can accept that with humility something that has been in poor evidence in the past. Ireland supporter since 1962 through thick and thin (very at times)
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Self-indulgent tosh. A reporter's job is to report, not to ramble tediously and autobiographically. No-one gives two hoots what you were doing when you were in the 6th form. The blog phenomenon has a lot to answer for.
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Everyone likes their own team to win, but everyone also likes to watch an entertaining match. The expected England performance is similar to watching a 'slug it out' heavyweight boxing bout. Good Rugby is about great movement. The Welsh, French and Irish try to play that way and produce exciting Rugby - you never know what is going to happen. So that is why I suport them, but when England plays like that I can remember that I'm English and want them to beat the lot of them.
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100% agree with Robert, I too was about to write the same thing. The welsh (and the scots) have a massive lack of ambition.
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Sean Davies approach to the match between England and Wales,shared by many others in the principality, and his failure to see the bigger picture is probably why Wales will not be winning the next world cup.
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As an Irishman
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Post 45 - Stuart Reeves:
I think we must come from the same era, although I first started watching rugby in the late 50's and started playing as soon as I was allowed to at school (not a private one !)
I agree, if everyone wants to beat England, I take it as a compliment and would suggest that the England team use it as motivation to up their game this saturday!
I had to suffer all of the 60's and 70's when we were regularly thrashed by the Welsh and we would have taken any win, even by 1 point, to ease the pain. And yes, we did get excited by a 1 point win; remember the 1980 Grand Slam match when 3 Dusty Hare penalties beat Wales' 2 tries (then worth 4 points) and Paul Ringer's sending off. One point win, couldn't care less, still got absolutely trashed!!
Looking forward to this weekend's game, of course I want England to win, but I've got a sneaking feeling they won't. IMHO, the Welsh really don't have that bad a team, and with players like Martyn Williams in the team they are more than capable of beating England, especially in Cardiff. I just want England to continue their progress, which I think they have undoubtedly made this year, so that they can at least make a decent fist of defending the RWC. I'm delighted with all the youngsters that have made their debuts this season and really want them to succeed. I'm really looking forward to an open game this weekend!
However, having been one of the lucky ones who got into Croke Park, I would love the crowd in Cardiff to behave in exactly the same way as they did there. Sing your anthem with gusto, respect the opposition's and keep silence for any kicks at goal. I believe it's all the young scottish supporters who started that habit of whistling the kickers and I firmly believe it has absolutely no place at a rugby match!
Sorry to sound like an "old f**t", but I love my rugby, I'm passionate about England but, above all, I just like to watch a good game. Here's to one this saturday.
P.S. For the record, I had an English father and a Welsh mother (still alive at 90). My middle names's Tudor, my mother's maiden name and that's very Welsh, I'm told!
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Baz,
I'm going to stick up for Sean. I asked him to write something about the game on Saturday - and I found his very personal look-back at this fixture from his own unique and rugby-mad point of view very entertaining.
And I am English.
All criticism is valid - but I don't think it is fair to criticise someone for something they aren't trying to do.
Sean wasn't trying to be objective and I specifically asked him for his 'personal insight' - which you deem 'self-indulgence'.
If you don't like the personal format of a blog, we have news pages where the straight-bat format may be more to your taste.
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These comments make depressing reading.
Over the years I have been fortunate to have attended all the Wales v England fixtures since '88. Almost every match has been a joy because the rugby has been the winner and there is ALWAYS a good spirit been opposing spectators.
Living in London means that there is a lot of ribbing to endure whenever Wales lose - this is only painful if we play badly. Let us enjoy the moment when Wales win - even if this is not very often and not by much of a margin! Wembley was a very savoury place to be on that Spring day in '99.
At the end of the day Wales have very limited rugby resouces compared to England so it is no surprise Wales are considered underdogs. However they do have the individual skills to entertain and IF they can string together a team performance they could well win on Saturday.
Let the sport entertain, whoever wins.
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Why is everyone saying that the Irish hate the English rugby team. Ireland has great respect for the English and some of us remember 1973 when the English travelled to Dublin when the our celtic cousins wouldn't and after all didn't England beat the French for us last week
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Its strange the English are famous for their fair play, where did we get that reputation, well from what I have just read, from the Irish, Scots and Welsh... What a bunch of precious frilly shirts we English blokes are, ITS A GAME.. nobody really hates us... mind you we do have more registered professional rugby players than anyone else in the world, I think our population is
20+ million nearly more than the Irish, Welsh and Scots combined.. so why shouldn't the underdogs win occassionally? Oh I forgot the Irish just did, didn't they by a tiny bit more than 1 or 2 points......
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Completely agree with post 43. Most of the 6 nations blogs contain a large number of vicious comments which are in no way representative of the good natured banter found at the matches.
Post 57 a shining example of soccer style support!
Rugby unfortunately is beginning to descend into the mirky depths of professionalism. How long will it be before players start waving imaginary cards at the refs to get players binned? How many more coaches will receive touch line bans? The soccer style rantings throughout the blogs are in some way reflecting what is also beginning to change on the field. Lets hope it doesn't transfer to the stands.
Now I've finished my rant back to the main topic -
Yes everyone wants to beat England. I couldn't think of a greater complement. Being such a big scalp is surely better than eveyone considering England insignificant.
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Why does it seem to be that it's perfectly all right to ridicule England and its fans, but when we try to return the favour, we've "lost our sense of humour" or being "typically arrogantly English?"
As a rugby fan and ex-player, I love the banter, and think it is what sets us apart from the violence and feral tribalism that haunts football, but still can't understand why it only appears ok when it's directed towards us.
And contrary to Glynn's (37) assertion that rugby in England is the preserve of public school and university, perhaps I should invite him to my old clubhouse where he'd meet a huge cross-section of society and he'd see that his argument is as full of holes as the Welsh defence hopefully will be tomorrow.
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As an Englishman going to University in Cardiff and having to endure the abuse at the 89' and 93'losses, any victory over the Welsh is enjoyable now! Their obsession to beat the English makes it all the sweeter when they don't.
PS I knew we'd lose the 1989 game, the English team were watching Dracula in a cinema down Queen Street the night before. Not a film to psyche you up and Deano was eating far to much popcorn!
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As an Englishman living in Cardiff during the mid to late seventies and sharing a house with several other English and Welsh blokes, all rugby players, the bruises following the ritual battering by the Welsh at rugby have still to heal...and the Welsh lads let us know all about it for weeks, for sure...
On the other hand, there is too much innate rugby talent in Wales for this dip to last for much longer, hopefully it will last for at least one more week though.
On a separate thought, I reckon that Ireland's Croke Park win over England may turn out to be the best possible result for England; it caused Ashton (a natural innovator) to cast off caution and to go with his instincts and we've already seen the results...very important that England play with the same exuberance on Saturday.
Come on the Ashton Kids...!! I think that we might out-Welsh the Welsh on Saturday and beat them by playing the so-called "Welsh Way."
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I was pretty sure that whatever I wrote I'd get accused of being sad, living in the past etc. But what I'm trying to say is enjoy the fantastic fixture that is Wales v England tomorrow, and enjoy it for what it is.
Anyone with a dispassionate eye will agree that both countries have been pretty dismal this season. People say "World Cups should be our ambition" - well, after watching this Six Nations I'd say that favourites for the World Cup are:
1. New Zealand
2. S Africa
3. Australia
4=. Argentina / France / Ireland
7. England
8=. Scotland / Italy / Wales
Given that, if Wales get a win tomorrow I'll be celebrating like it's the best thing that's going to happen to them all year (and one of the five best things in the last 20 years).
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You get more credit when you beat the best so everybody wants to beat England. The sad thing is that the current English team often help them do it.
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Having shared the memories of watching five nations games in JC's Bar. I remember trips to Mumbles usually being to drown the sorrows of defeat, illuminated by the odd victory. I fear that tomorrow will be no different for the Welsh students in Swansea. With the exception of 2005 we haven't really moved on. I don't share Gareth Jenkins philosphy of losing all six nations games for a decent world cup or as long as we beat England, it's a decent season. A win tomorrow will do little to mask a poor championship. I'd swap 4 wins and a defeat against England for the championship every year although losing to them still hurts the most. What I'd give though for a Welsh win and being able to see Mr Sean Davies parading down St Mary's Street in a drunken state, talking more nonsense than usual!
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Sadly the England stars in Australia 2003, Have got that little bit older
and have decided to hang up their boots !!!! This is now 2007 ! and more
to the point the numbers on Rugby shirts go, no 1 to 15 (exc Reps) They dont stop at 10, So England have to stop relying on Jonny Wilkinson and find another 14 guys to support him, this way he may avoid more injuries caused by opposing back row players clobbering him. Anyway COME ON WALES WE CAN DO IT England on Saturday, World Cup Later in the year, NOW THATS A SUCCESS STORY FOR YOU !
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Id like to comment on several pieces that have been written below. Yes beating the English is very important,and anyone who doesn't understand the rivarly here in Wales or accross the border should really get to grips with things. BUT, beating the English is crucial this time because Jenkins needs to prove himself. It seems that the lack lusture approach of the final games he took charge of the Scarlets has somehow stuck with him, and is now visible in the Welsh team.
One final comment. Someone below mentions Wales never being World beaters. Probably not. But do we see anybody from the British Isles being so ? Maybe Ireland, who the All Blacks conveniantly avoided on their British Tour ( I wonder why ), but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag, and I never saw them play like World Champions !!!
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English supporters shouldn't flatter themselves into believing they matter so much; I'd sooner take Ireland's scalp, anyday. Can't deny there's a special feeling from seeing their smug faces drop though. Personally, i detest them. Hey ho.
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You'll never win anything of any merit if a seasons success or failure(the latter being wales' fate win, lose or draw with England) hinges on beating someone you don't like rather than aiming to beat the best team in the competition. England are ranked 6th in the world, surely the results against Ireland and France should have been more important?
Poor little down trodden principality. Bless.
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A win over Italy in the 1999 '5' Nations?????
Still, a fantastic England v Wales match........
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It is definitely 'the' rugby fixture!! The amount of old English Uni friends, coming out of the woodwork, asking for tickets, wanting to meet up on Saturday for a drink and to pull up a memory or two....I wouldn't change the rivalry for the world...we'll all give as good as we get.....and as long as we beat the English, we don't care!!!!!
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Amusing really. Let me share a memory of mine that sums up you pathetic Welsh. Touring NZ for the Lions tour 2005, happily mixing with the British fans, especially the Scots who were amazing. The first tour game that Shano (as you horribly call him) and the party of Welsh in front of me constantly cheered for the Ospreys and him alone!!! When an England or scot, Irish touched the ball they sat down and went quiet. Don't you worry beating the Welsh is as enjoyable for us however we find it alot easier than you.
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Edryd Jones wrote:
"but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag"
OK First thing you can't fluke an entire world cup, it's just not possible. Secondly England WERE world beaters but leading up to and during the world cup - granted shortly afterwards things wnet pear shaped.
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Come On ENGLAND.. Last weeks performance was outstanding... I can't wait for us to stuff Wales tomorrow!! They are so anti English.
I however do love the game and hope the best team win.. Which will be England.. And hope the tries come thick and fast… for England.
Good luck Wales. But it would help to have greater ambition than just worrying about England. The true test will be the world cup… and I like what I’ve scene so far after the shake up we needed.
On the attacks we have had over the world cup we so rightly deserved.. all focus on Johnny’s Perfect Drop goal!! But we won because the team are and were the most passionate team! FORWARD AS ONE! tut tut you are all so bitter... I remember a similar drop Goal that secured a welsh grand slam? But he was a hero for you.. so was Johnny for us.
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Wales v England isn't the big game of the 5/6 nations any more. England v France is the big game for English fans. I hope England win this weekend but it's not significant, beating France is the key performance to ake away from this tournament.
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All the home nations want to beat each other - its purely down to bragging rights for a season. And its good fun. I truely believe its nothing about hatred (maybe a minority of unfortunate) its about being able to say we beat you. Our teams better than yours for a few months till the next game. I (as an englishman) love to beat the irish, welsh and scots....particularly the Aussies (who do have a bigger problem when losing to us)as they do the English.
Having been 'World Champions' for the last four years, it has hurt to see us become the worst world champions..ithink in any sport. And all the other teams have enjoyed ripping in to us. However finally i think we have a coach who will get us playing again....
So all i can say is....get ready to taking some thumpings again from the mighty whites!...who deserve to be there cos we are the best ;o)
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And you have the audacity to accuse the Enlgish of dwelling on past success. How come you can write a full blog about your recent victories over the English, but if we even so much as mention the World Cup, the entire of Wales jumps down out throat? One rule for Wales, one rule for everyone else. If an Englishman gets abused by a Welshman, it's payback for years of arrogance, oppression and torment (?????). If an Englishman takes the mick out the Welsh, we're a bunch of racist anglo-saxon pigs. I find the entire thing of the Welsh disliking the English absolutely laughable.
Good luck on Saturday Wales. I have no hatred for you...only pity after reading these blogs.
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As usual a large number of English fail to understand why nobody likes them!! Yes they are World Champions and nobody can take that away from them. They did what they had to do to win it with a good team and exceptional captain. (The coach was over-rated though as discovered with his pathetic efforts with the Lions!!) There is nothing at all wrong with wanting to beat your neighbours and, as someone else said, with an English based media dominating everything we do get fed up with that.
Both England and Wales go into this game ironically stronger without their first choice No 10's. Should be a great game and, yes, beating England will be some consolation for a poor season.
The reality of all of this is that no Northern Hemisphere is any where near good enough to win the World Cup this year.
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Boys (mainly) and girls,
To those of you calling the author up in holes about his "narrow-minded" attitude, perhaps you should reflect that the reason WHY beating England in the last 20 years or so has been so important is precisely because Wales lost the form of the 70s. They're a good side, therefore a target - beating them is an achievement, not just an ancient rivalry.
However, I'll bet if you ask any football supporters who they most want to beat, it'd be their nearest (and/or biggest) neighbours - hence the excitement of the local derby. I defy you to find any Man City fan who doesn't think the United games are the most important in the season, for example.
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A comment mentioned 'no one from NZ going on about one game or another'... don't you believe it. They KEEP going on and on about one game or another, the difference being they've WON all the games they go on about. (I live in NZ.)
Beating England at rugby is paramount. No other scalp is so satisfying. That said, this Sunday morning is different and, God I hate typing this... I hope England thrash Wales this weekend. If the England team could put forty or fifty on us, that would truly seal the final nail in Jenkins' coffin and, possibly, Wales might stand a chance of getting out of the group phase of the upcoming world cup.
Someone wrote about winning four and losing to England... Remember 1994? God that sucked. Five Nations champions, yes, but lifting the trophy after having been humbled at Twickenham... it still sticks.
A win on Saturday would preserve horrific management. A loss would precipitate their departure.
Come on Wales! Lose, for goodness sake.
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Yes 52 I think all this 'Celtic brotherhood' stuff is a load of crap too.
This said, I grew up in Scotland and spent alot of time in Ireland too (North and South) and what some of the people do have in common though is quite a complex about their national identity from which the ensuing nationalism lends them to some quite skewed, myopic understandings of themselves and England/English people. By defining themselves as the opposite of anything 'English' they tend to draw neat binary oppositions which underpin their understanding of their country's national character - generally along the lines of media as 'arrogant/ balanced; history as that of 'oppressor/ oppressed'; people as 'humourless/ humourful', and culture as 'bland/ colourful' etc... with England/English as always the former. Ofcourse, from this point of view they are generally succesful in finding evidence of the 'arrogance' etc.. which entails its opposite and sustains a sense of being part of a culturally and morally superior country. Interestingly it is only the symbols of England/ Englishness which are contested and real English people are generally not as important as contributing factors in the equation: hence the 'I hate the English but you're alright' comments frequently made to English people by the Scottish, Irish and Welsh (often when living in London or other English cities) and which are genuinely understood not to be offensive. This understanding, although occaisionally questioned in soul-searching articles (most recently in the Irish media) about how celtic country X needs to 'move on' and 'look forward' by throwing off a national identity based on anti-Englishness, has nevertheless come out on the BBC blogs a few times - notably by Jim Stokes on the Ireland blog and here too as the commentators get over excited and reveal their true colours. What the celtic countries have in common - and indeed with Australia, NZ etc though to varying degrees - is a sense of national-culture and identity forged by a oppostion drawn against the symbols of what they are not. This is unhealthy and justifies an ethnocentrism which goes beyond 'rivalry' and ironically is exactly the complaint most often levelled against the 'arrogant English'.
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"Personally I detest them. Hey Ho"
Barry ,you must have had some very bad dealings with the Irish to have such a strong feeling of hatred. What an idiot!!
I believe on the whole, tru Rugby fans have no hatred for each other and that there it just a healthy rivalry. I love it when we (Ireland) beat anyone. Always 100% behind the team and love the banter with the opposition fans.
From some of these blogs I would worry that the soccer type lout who goes to matches to start trouble is ecking their way into a game that has no history of the viciousness assosiated with soccer.
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All this talk of English arrogance is ridiculous and reminiscent of a group of football supporters. At the end of the day it's rugby guys, and anyone playing sport to a high degree of professionalism needs a bit of it or else they wouldn't get anywhere. My best friends are Welsh and Irish and to say they are not arrogant when it comes to their national sides is ridiculous, they are just the same as anyone else and have an overriding sense of national pride - is this arrogance? As with all sports everyone wants to beat the next team and this means some more than others. I think the difference between England and some of the other home nations is that England has moved on from this feudal idea and simply just wants to be the best (granted not going too well at the moment!). Others however are still too wrapped up in beating the English (though I think Scotland and Ireland have moved past this now!) and until they broaden their ambitions then they will get nowhere. I am talking about both the supporters and the players here, more the supporters these days who need to brush that chip off thier shoulders, get over it and get on with the game! Saying all that though, the distinct rivalry between England and well everyone else, does make for some good banter and a healthy drink during and after the game, unlike some other footballing sports...but that is another issue!
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Interesting blog and you can't blame a fan for wanting their side to win, espeically when looking down the barrel of a whitewash. However, it concerns me when any fans objective is as long as we beat X, we should want our side to try and beat everyone.
Been reading Clive Woodward's book recently the modestly titled 'Winning' actually not a bad book despite my concerns on the title. Anyway the point was the way he changed England from a team wanting to compete in Europe to the world is significant and I think it should be the objective of all of the European sides. The Southern hemisphere don't just worry about their local rivals the game is now global. The sooner we all realise that the better.
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The difference is the Welsh, Scots, Irish and French all love beating the English, whereas the English like to beat the Welsh, Scots, Irish and French.
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No it would just mask the fundamental problems that Wales have - including the fact that the current Welsh coaching team are not up to the Job. I think the short term pain of losing to England would be worth the long term benefits gained if it leads to the sacking of Gareth Jenkins and his coaching team - who are clearly not up to the job!
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Re Glynn posting 37
Glynn you are 30 years out of date.
Of course rugby is played at English public schools and universities but universities are no longer only for the "upper classes". My guess is that rugby is played in Welsh public schools and uni's as well.
You should visit grass roots clubs in England where many are running mini and junior sides fron U7 to U17 made up of kids from local junior and comprehensive schools.
England by 20 on Saturday.
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Wales by 10+, it's simple, England will not fire in the Millenium Stadium and Wales will.
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Just to say that I'm really surprised. I wouldn't have thought that Wales had only beaten England 4 times (and by a total of just 7 points!). Despite being English I find this slightly depressing.
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Good old Wales supporters hey, I can believe that a comment is written by the honourable Edryd Jones that England won the world cup and I quote: "woopdiedooo". I don't believe it to be a case of woopdiedooo, I do however think that more realistically on planet earth it must take allot of hard work and determination with a little bit of good luck on top. When the Boks won the world cup in 1995 with a drop goal in the dying minutes of over time, it was not said afterwards that all it took was a little "woopdiedooo" no in fact it took everything they had to give, and that little bit of luck on top! After this the boks too did not always perform as one would expect world champions to do, but then Wales would know all about how to play immediately after winning a world cup...
I think England have got their work cut out, again deciding to rest their players rather than have as much prep time as possible. All I can hope for is another strong performance from the tight five and quick latter phase ball to the wings, Robinson is still as elusive as ever and man O' man can that Strettle motor.
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Yes I've got to admit that the Henson tackle on Tait was a way over the top in terms of media hype.
Scott Gibbs tackle on Oz du Rant in 1997 for the Lions...now that was a tackle to be proud of.
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I am an Englishman living in Cardiff, And I love this fixture. The pure passion that the fans and the team in Wales put into this game is exciting for any fan of professional sport. If only Wales could put the same amount of passion into every game.
What I Don't like about the day is some of the hatred that is strangely overlooked by many. Racism in the Big Brother house is minor compared to some of the abuse I have witnessed in bars in Cardiff. I don't beleive for one minute its intended to be racist but think, "I hate the English", "The English are Arrogant" couldn't this be construed as racism even though it only seems to be used in the sporting world. And have I a right to complain? or should I take it as sporting banter? Its about time that this part of the rivalry is put to bed. And for the people who hate the media attention that English Teams get in all competitions remember this. MEDIA is a business and using basic principles of business the media is out to make money and they are going to target their biggest customer, that is England.
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Barry
I'm hoping you have a really miserable weekend this weekend, it will match your miserable posting.
Edryd
England were/are world champions because over a period of 2 years they were the best side in the world, that run gave them the edge, no matter that it was a late drop goal .. it was a win, despite the Ref's attempt to even up the game by refereeing Englands dominant scrum out of the match.
I'm hoping for a great game, win or lose, I want to see England play some quality, running, inventive rugby. If Wales should win, they'll have deserved it, whether by late penalty or drop goal.
Come on England !
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Of course we want to beat them every time. That is what sport is about. It is better than being at war with eachother as we were for many years. It is sport where we vent our fellings and the right way to do it. Some people wouldn't even want them to come over the Bridge.
At least we charge them £15 for the pleasure of entering our country.
Bunch or rah rah tally ho boys with only one song to sign. You know where to stick the Chariots.
C'mon Wales.
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BTW re post 37, pop over the border into the West Country and tell them that. Go talk to people playing rugby in Cornwall and ask them if they have all been to university or public school.
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Pity the nation that defines itself by what it hates.
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As an Irish supporter, I find this squabble between you two minor rugby nations very cute. I dont see Wales or England beating ireland for a very very long time. You just dont have the structures in place.
Ireland to pull further away in the next four years!!
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ive been watchin wales over the last few weeks with a heavy heart and have hadvery little to console me as ive watched them go from bad to worse. However this saterday will be the match people will rememebr and i pray if nothing else wales give them the hardest game they've had in this tournament, our dreams or winning are in ruins but our oppertunity to still maintain some dignity is within our reach. Good luck lads
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The difference in ambition was summed up for me outside the Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane during the 2003 World Cup. I was ecstatic because we'd won a tight Quarter Final and the World Cup dream was still alive. A passing Welshman was ecstatic because Wales had scored 3 tries to 1!!!! I politely enquired about the time of his flight home!
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Oh i love it when the English get wound up and upset when they hear that other countries revel in beating them and seeing them loose. Its great!!! They are so sensitive aren't they!!!
Why do the English even care?? Your the current world champions. You should take it as a compliment. Grow up.
I can only presume that the English really, really wanted to beat the Welsh in the 70's 80's, did we get upset? No, we just enjoyed beating you heavily.
One more thing
England - 1 million registered rugby players
Wales - 45,000 registered rugby players.
Everyone loves a David and Goliath story,
Get over it.
England still win tomorrow by 2 points
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As an English child of the 70s, beating Wales is always great and it may still take several decades before I actually feel sorry for them. That aside, it's true that the celtic nations are always much keener to beat England than vice versa. That is basically because it was all over bar the shouting hundreds of years ago when we got all the money and the best land. It's hard to rouse yourself over a mere rugby match after that. Now taking on proper countries like France and Germany at sport, that's what makes the passion burn and what made last weekend very sweet in an otherwise bleak few seasons. Provocative stuff indeed but as an English fan cannot say anything without being accused of arrogance, it's pointless being conciliatory and I may as well conform to type. I hope that England stuff Wales by a country mile on Saturday...but on current form I wouldn't bet a month's pay.
Name & Address not Supplied ;)
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Well.....lots of good stuff here a real mix indeed.
As an England fan its important we play well as RWC is the goal. BUT to beat Wales matters a lot to me too as I am passionate about the White short as the Welsh supporters are about the Red.
We have slipped over nearly 4 years now so thats why a win is important but also how we play, how our new players fare is critical so its hard to balance that short term and long term. If we win narrowly because Wales play poorly for example I wont be happy. Wales have dived in half the time we have and that I find amazing. I actually enjoy good rugby and the style from RWC 2003 to Grand Slam for Wales was good to watch. But what has happened?
Almost as strange as the ending of the game against Italy. Would a quick tap have been a better option, retain the ball rather than risk a line out that would have been spoiled anyway!!
Anyway, that said I will be overjoyed when they close the roof at Cardiff so the local people cant hear the home crowds tears!!!
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There are a couple of comments about Wales v Italy in 1999 - Wales did beat them in Rome on their 'weekend off' from the old Five Nations. It was the last year before they officially joined the Six Nations.
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As an Australian, I don't understand the issue. My Pommy mates have told me that Wales is part of England albeit thought of as poor and backward. Clearly they have been having a lend of me.
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Wales have no chance of beating England.
They are very very poor - worst team in tyeh six nations by far.
Rubbish.
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Comment 3 from Paulino - I assume that having had the wooden spoon for so long, Italy may be able to send us some wonderful recipes...
Beating England is enough? Not in my book, beating anybody half decent is satisfying, there's no extra buzz for it being the men in white for me. just means that all the green welly brigade go quiet for weeks afterwards.
I really hope that the guys finally click and produce a big W, but it will only cap a miserable season in my book. One that poses questions on both the coach and captaincy.
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after coming to Swansea uni last year i realised what being english meant to alot of welsh people. I can see why to, only a few matches ago there were some english rugby supportes who were clearly football converts,(after seeing the english rugby team win more games than football) They were been abusive to the other teams in ways which were very unsporting. this annoyed me and got cheers from the welsh when i, a fellow englishmen, told them to shut up!! So we are not all as bad as the press makes us out to be.
I plan on heading down to Cardiff on Saturday dressed as an english knight with some friends, but i have been warned, to be careful??? this annoys me, alot of the good banter between rugby fans has now gone and its becoming more and more like football. Saturday will be a great day no matter what happens, 3matches in 1 day is always good!!!! If we do loose on saturday good on the Welsh, they need it. lol (a joke/firendly banter, dont see much of it on here) lets hope its an awesome game. we can always just beat u at some drinking games afterwards, boat race anyone???? Come on england!!
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In response to Glynn comment 37, Ronnie Regan and Shaun Perry Were both welders before they turned pro so no Uni or public schoolboys there. Also, I get impression Julian White and Phil, raging bull, Vickery come from a school of life background rather than some toffy nosed school. I play with a whole plethera of poeple at my club:-brickies , plumbers, head teachers,lecturers to used car salesmen. Once again the celts view of the Ole Enemy is stuck in the past. I for one will be cheering on my team at my club with my welsh teamates cheering on thier team. Lets not forget rugby is THE beautiful game and not that lawn fairy sport !!!
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Being an Englishman in Wales the worst thing for me is the Welsh media. If Wales win a match, any match, they are the best team in the world, if they lose they are suddenly the worst.
All the hype around England matches just makes it disproportionately worse. Odds on if Wales win on Saturday, Sundays papers will be hailing a new start for Welsh rugby and a bright hope for the World Cup. If they lose they will be calling for heads to roll and looking for scapegoats for the whole six nation debacle.
Hmm just like the English papers with football then!
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Why is it then whenever England win a game with penalties then they are accused of being boring or predictable? England have been beaten by Wales, the ABs and probably most other nations by penalties alone and yet nothing is made of this. Paterson almost kicked Ireland out of the running for the 6Ns and yet no-one has made an issue out of this.
Sure we all like to see open running rugby with spectacular tries, but at the end of the day a win is a win and if penalties put the points on the board then so be it.
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If Wales can't beat a largely 2nd string England on saturday, then their season will be officially a disaster.
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As much as I would like to see Wales beat England and would jump around like a lunatic if we beat them, I really must take umbrage at some of the bitterness that oozes from these posts like a malevolent puss from a wound. I'm a Welshman living in London and - outside of an 80minute rugby match once a year when it's alright to bay for their blood - I like and respect the English. Let's face it, they're not bad neighbours (we could be living next to a bunch of bloodthirsty communists) and have we Celts in recent times not shed blood together to make Europe and the world a safer place?
I'm Welsh first but proudly British second, and I for one don't harbour resentment towards the English.
Here's hoping to a good game of rugby tomorrow and a good show against the SH teams in the WC.
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Can I, as an Englishman, put a bit of reason into this discussion.
I enjoy English victories in any sport, as I am sure the Welsh and Scots do. However, I always support those two countries when they play foreign teams as I would a Scottish competitor in an athletics event in which an Englishman had no chance (and it often happens)! I cannot see England doing well in this years WC (due mainly to poor management since 2003) but then Wales have had similar problems in the past and like most sides have come through it as England probably will, if too late for this year.
It would please me if the Welsh and Scots realised that it is foreign sides that we should all want to beat (France, ABs, Australia, Ireland, SA etc) as British countries. Yes, the Welsh want to beat England, but they should also have the same desire to beat the Scots and visa versa.
Please enjoy the match, but remember it is only a game and there are far far more important things happening in the rest of the world.
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Although it would be nice to beat the English in what promises to be a tight match and send the country into a state of euphoria for a couple of days. It would not be as nice as a strong showing in the World Cup. This unfortunately will be outside our grasp as long as we continue under the same coaching regime. Jenkins summed it up for me with his comment to BBC Sport when he said "if you take 2005 away it has been an average season compared with the last 10 years". Should we not be striving for more and have average seasons like 2005. Instead of persevering with a level of mediocrity/triviality.
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I don't mind some harmless banter, in fact it is a compliment that the other nations want to beat England, the more hated we are the better - that means when we do win we really upset the other supporters, which makes me laugh!!!
One thing that annoyed me slightly is the all Welsh/Irish commentary team on the BBC passing comment on the England Ireland game - the Welsh guy, whose team had lost on the same day, finished with "any day the English lose is a good day for me." ITS NOT EVEN HIS TEAM. Chip on his shoulder or what...
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Everybody, please remember two things!
To Wales fans. The vast majority of English supporters/citizens are no more or less arrogant than you and do not feel superior to the Welsh/Scots/Irish/French.
To England fans. The vast majority of Welsh supporters/citizens do not hate the English people- they hate the rugby team/establishment. It is natural that if you have a bigger neighbour you want to beat them, especially if you are the underdog on most occasions.
I cannot understand the enmity that always seems to develop from this kind of debate- on both sides. Sean Davis' weblog is a very entertaining, light-hearted view of what it feels like for other teams like to beat the English.
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4. David wrote:
"nor is it only about the triumph of the underdog, speed and guile against brawn and apparent arrogance. It's really about the natural order of things being restored, God being in his heaven and the sun shining like it did when you were six."
can this person not see where the arrogance really comes from - the english are proud because we are world champions, and because as this article mentions we pretty much whipped everyone for a good few years... the welsh think that them winning is as inevitable as the sun coming up in the morning?!?
Not only is this the height of arrogance, if it were true we'd also probably have evolved without eyes, cos there'd be no point in trying to see.
2005 was a one-off.
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Stevo (70) strikes a chord with me. I know it is a self-selecting group who contribute to blogs but I’m getting quite despondent about the invective and spleen directed at England in them (one of the Ireland v England blogs set unenviably high levels). It seems that it is OK to express hate and scorn for England in a way that if directed against other nations would be seen as offensive and unacceptable. Whatever the history and legacy of home nations relations in all aspects is perceived to be I can’t for the life of me see why they should be press-ganged into stoking ‘hate’ and win at any cost mentalities
I was beguiled by the rugby of the Welsh 70’s team and it grew my love of the best team game in the world. Their play seemed to spring from art rather than science as so much is now for so many teams. Anathema for some I know but I would rather England lose playing adventurous thrilling rugby than grind out an attritional overwrought few points win.
If England play in the manner they did against France and Wales play the way they are instinctively capable of Saturday’s game should be the best of this 6 nations and too close to call.
So here’s a big ‘cheers’ to all the rugby lovers and a ‘take a good look at yourself’ to the xenophobes.
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I can see his point though, Simon (99). Tries are what rugby should be all about and us Welsh feel a tad guilty about winning matches by boring kicks (a la England in the eighties and Scotland now) as we are known for a certain attractive playing style. Other teams have won more Grand Slams than us over the past ten years admittedly but nobody did with the same style and panache as the Welsh in 2005. It was a joy to behold. I only hope we don't have to wait another 20-odd years for another one.
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Edryd Jones (blog 77): you are a sad, sad man. As the guy said, it's not possible to fluke an entire world cup, nor, adding to that, beating all the SH teams home and away, several times in a row.
Winning the world cup - 'woop-de-doo'? Yeah, that attitude is the reason why you won't even come close to winning one anytime soon; given it's the greatest, nost arduous prize in world rugby, and all you care about, instead, is beating a mediocre England team that's only just beginning to believe it can play...
Grow up and get some perspective. 'Parochial' and 'myopic' just don't cover what you really are.
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My comment is that Sean Davis' figures just don't add up in his piece of 'journalism'. He was in the 6th form in 1989, which means at the earliest, he started in 1988, starting uni in 1991 (possible gap year or 3 years in the 6th form). This means he was, at the earliest, born in late 1971. How on earth does he remember Welsh rugby throughout the 1970s? A bit of creative reporting here I think, besides the so-called 'great' victories.
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Edryd Jones wrote:
"but England ceertainly haven't been WORLD beaters. They won the World Cup- whooopdie dooo. Jammy Sudden, Sudden, Sudden ( I've forgotten how late on in the game it was-excuse the sarcasm) drop goal, and the cup was theres. BUT, after that.......I never saw them live up to the World Champions Tag"
OK First thing you can't fluke an entire world cup, it's just not possible. Secondly England WERE world beaters but leading up to and during the world cup - granted shortly afterwards things wnet pear shaped.
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The Welsh always give extra when they're playing Engerland - Which is why it's always so funny watching them Struggle against a pretty poor Scotland.
If I were a welsh fan I wouldn't bother watching them play anyone other than Engerland - you know you're only going to see the team put in 60-70% effort :-).
As a group of depsondant Welsh fans said as they were leaving Murrayfield this year "They wouldn't score a try in a week - never mind the last 5 minutes. We're off to the pub"
Says it all !
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103 - pathetic. A real credit to your nation you mindless idiot.
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This topic has been taken very seriously by a lot of people - i think it's a lot more simple.
Wales need to win this game much more for the future of the coach (and the pressure that comes with a Six Nations whitewash) than some boyish border rivalry. Likewise England could be on course for a Six Nations win - providing a miracle happens in the Stade de France.
I agree that a win over England is sweeter than any of the other Six Nations for me, and a customary phone call to my Uncle in Leicester after is always in order. But in the grand scheme of things, Wales can't afford another loss - and with Hook at 10 i think we will win.
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Re Crezza, posting 97.
Although I agree that the perception of the English game as being somehow only for toffs is a little exaggerated, still: 'My guess is that rugby is played in Welsh public schools...' - Erm. Actually, there aren't really any big Welsh public schools - certainly not any of your Eton, Harrow etc.
Anyway, that was a digression. The fact remains that if I went down to a building site here in London after the weekend and asked if they'd watched the rugby I'd probably get blank looks. Back in Cardiff it would be a silly question - of course they would have. In Wales rugby is a game of the people, which isn't quite true in England. That's why it means more, but unfortunately also why it's so much more parochial and xenophobic. (For an equivalent English comparison just think of the stupid headlines in the red-tops whenever we play the 'Argies' in football)
Looking forward to the final game on Saturday. In all probability the 6N will already have been decided effectively, so I'm hoping for a really thrilling encounter with both Wales and now Ashton's England wanting to play good open rugby. I think there could be a decent points gap at the end of the game, but I wouldn't like to predict in who's favour! From a Welsh point of view I've always thought it better, if you are going to be beaten by England, to be beaten by England playing attractive rugby - rather than just sticking the ball up their shirts as they used to.
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You guys are lucky,
My wife's Welsh, and I'm an aging English fan..Have you ever seen the damage a knitting needle can do?
It's like laying on the wrong side of a ruck with a very upset pack of All Black forwards peering down at you.
Here's hoping it's a draw, and Im spared the attentions of the local A&E department.
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The Welsh are far from a subjugated people.
Whilst we are proud to be part of a union of nations (ref: recent surveys and referendums - Owain Glyndwr himself fought on the side of England before the throne was usurped by unrightful heir Henry IV) and have contributed as much in terms of lives of men (don't forget Rorke's Drift!), industry and sporting triumphs to putting the "Great" firmly into Great Britain - we have retained our national identity through our language, hiriaith (a word that has no English translation), culture, recently devolved powers and national sport, i.e. rugby.
With regard to the latter and indeed the subject matter of this thread, I can understand how outsiders may perceive this to be a chip on the preverbial shoulder.
However, I feel we bang on less about our common histories of English oppressive rule than our celtic cousins... But channel this aggression solely into matters on the rugby field, as civilised gentlemen rather than resorting to anti-social behaviour and the drawing of blood.
Thus, both parties (English and Welsh) understand and appreciate this and the harmless banter of fans continues off the field.
Some of my best friends are English!
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Redcoat you made my day with this post, supreme!!
I lived in Bangor, North Wales 1996-1998)for a couple of years. People there hate the English only slightly less than they hate Welsh people from south Wales!
It was a joy to watch Wales get stuffed out of site during that time, being in Wales, the enemies territory. I actually think I enjoy seeing England beat Wales more than any other other team except perhaps Australia or France.....its the equivalent of when England play Germany or Argentina at football,its that indefinable intense rivalry that makes for great games
18. At 05:21 PM on 15 Mar 2007, RedCoat wrote:
Interesting. Nice to see how the 2005 notions of the current side going onto another period of greatness have descended back into small minded provincialism.
I guess I've been watching 5 / 6 nations matches for about as long as you. My own personal favourite wins (hard to limit them to four, so I have six) are:
1991
Simon Hodgkinson kicks a record seven penalties to defeat the Welsh at Cardiff Arms Park for the first time in a million years. England's pack destroys the Welsh forwards. My father has me take a bottle of beer with a black ribbon round it to his Welsh "friend".
1997
Jeremy Guscott comes off the bench and destroys the highly feted Welsh backs with his speed and awareness in a superb second half display.
1998
England concede three tries and then destroy the Welsh with about 18 tries, Austin Healey making Neil Jenkins look like a one paced, one trick pony fly half woefully exposed out of position at full back (funny that). The ITV highlights (remember them) make the game look like an England training session.
2000
Lawrence Dallaglio drives through 14 Welshmen from 40 yards to score a memorable try, Phil Vickery dummies out of his own 22 and Neil Back drops a goal.
2001
Matt Dawson sidesteps his way to a glorious try in the Milennium stadium, Will Greenwood almost atones for his terrible bleached hair with a hat-trick.
2006
England blow the Welsh away with the worst centre partnership in their history and Ben Cohen on the wing: quite the achievement.
Apologies for absurd partizanship and what probably borders on xenophobia, and I'm sure two wrongs don't make a right, but, in the verbiage of the playground, you started it.
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Living in Wales it gets very depressing the way the Welsh big up the England game so much. As an English supporter it is just another game that I obviously want England to win, there's no special emphasis on it from an English point of view. If Wales go out and play well on Saturday and win from a Welsh perspective i would be really annoyed that they they put so much emphasis on the one game instead of playing well in all the others and doing well in the championship. It can be very wearing the way the Welsh harp on about this one game, the English are jsut seeing it as another six nations game.
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Why do the English get so hot under the collar when ribbed by the Welsh/Scots/Irish? There is always going to be a team that a side desperately wants to beat. After all, doesn't that apply to England v France? Take it as a compliment for goodness sake. I agree with a previous posting saying that competitive sport between historically rival nations is bound to have that added dimension and 'needle' by its very nature.
Regarding comments made about lack of ambition, of course Wales would love to be in the running for the World cup as would any other rugby playing nation, but that shouldn't detract from the desire to come out on top against your neighbour and historical rival.
Here's to a great match with hopefully the reds emerging victorious!
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as the Manic Street Preachers sang
"AS LONG AS WE BEAT THE ENGLISH, WE DON'T CARE"
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I think some of you English guys are missing the tone of this article somewhat. Sean Davies is lamenting the few victories that Wales have mustered against you guys. He is also lamenting the fact that he has never been able to celebrate those victories in style.
I don't think he is boasting about these great occasions. In fact he is acknowledging their scarcity.
I was cheering England against France and not because it opened up our (Ireland's) chances of the six nations title, but because you were underdogs against a good French side. I felt sorry for an English team who looked defeated in Croke Park before kick-off. Then they turned over France with a fantastic performance.
I have to say I'll be cheering Wales all the way this Saturday. Wales have played ok this year and have nothing to show for it. I particularly like some of the Welsh lads in Gareth Thomas, Shanklin and Stephen Jones (though he is not playing) and I think it will be very close. I think Wales have everything to prove and against a fairly green English team and actually look stronger on paper. If Wales can remember that their forwards' primary objective is to grunt and grind and not to play like backs, then they have every chance.
Everyone loves an underdog.... except if they are Italian and the date is 17th March 2007, of course!
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A match between two poor teams whose countries media hype them up when they win just so they can knock them down once again when they lose. There will be no winners from this game just false hope. Not nearly as gud as us French or we can say Ireland aswell
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I'm a Wales supporter, and no, beating england would not make up for losing the other 4 matches so far. For some people it would, I just haven't met any of them yet. Gareth Jenkins needs to be got rid of.
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I'm old enough to remember Wales in the 70's , infact in was watching Wales that turned me onto rugby, the likes of Barry John, JPR Williams, Gareth Edwards etc fantastic stuff.
I agree that winning is everything. I mean how would any englishman feel if Australia had dropped a goal to win the world cup and not Johnny? I imagine there's aussies who still have sleepless nights over that.
The whole point of sport is to win, to beat the opposition, otherwise don't bother.
whoever we support we want our team to win every single match for ever.
Wales v England in Wales or England is always a great fixture its going to be a great match, both teams have a huge point to prove. Infact all of these last 6 nations games are worth watching, all teams have a point to prove.
The best tournament in the World?
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Thanks for all the sensible comments, eg John Kaye, post 126.
It can get a bit depressing commenting on these things online as the enjoyable Anglo-Welsh rivalry/banter that I've always experienced in person on match days all too often descends into bitterness, bigotry and humourless name-calling on a computer screen.
National rivalries, playground rivalries, call them what you like... they exist when Wales play England. They can be a lot of fun. Now, I'm sure there are incidents where these things spill over. But any sensible rugby fan - English, Welsh, or otherwise - will be enjoying the whole Cardiff experience on Saturday.
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From Sean Davis's writings it's obvious that if Wales win he will be celebrating widly. What I want to know is what will he be doing if Wales loose ? Just so I can conjure up the picture on the long journey home on the M4...
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Message 14
Paul. all the nonsense about Anglo saxons and celts is an entire myth.
And the way people bang on about shows a huge amount of ignorance and that they know aboslutely nothing about a heritage they claim to be proud of!
it's becoming really, really tedious.
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You could take Sean's blog and cut and paste it every year. Same old rubbish. Boring. Move on. And by the way, technically the oldest enemy of the Welsh are the Italians (AKA the Romans), but don't let facts get in the way of a good story or gratuitous stereotyping.
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I love the way the Welsh/Irish/Scots make statements like "nobody likes the English". "Everyone hates the English, not just us". Sorry to disappoint you, but actually it is just you, plus a few Australians/NZers who are about as sophisticated as moronic English football fans who think they hate Germany/Argentina. I've lived and worked in France, Germany, Denmark, Poland and Russia. Sure there is banter in France around the time of important rugby matches, ditto Germany and football matches, but the rest of the time they have no strong opinions about us either way. Any why? Because their national identity is about what they are, not what they are not. As for Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, I invariably got a very positive response everywhere when people found out where I was from (Oxfordshire, incidentally). So sorry, but you are the only countries where signigicant numbers of people spend significant parts of their lives worrying about the English. (note the word English here, I'm not talking about people in the Middle East who might hate the entire English speaking world due to the war created by the Scot-dominated British Govermnent). Hate away, just don't try and justify your parochial attitudes with lies about other countries.
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As an Essex boy who lived in Wales. I love the rivalry just like we love the rivalry with the Scots, Irish Aussies, Kiwis etc. England love being the side everyone want to beat. We are the pantomine villans and baddies in every movie (see braveheart). Bring it on,in the right humour, as long as it is no just good old fashiioned racism (i.e we are all arrogant).
However I think the rivalry holds back our Celtic friends. If Ireland had put in 50 % of the England performance vs France they would have a Grand Slam. But they cannot because the one big game they peak for every year is England and more fool them we are not that good.
I think Wales stand a very good chance in Cardiff and it will be a good game a lot will depend on how our young players settle.
However I think in 2 years a serious England side will be back !!
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"As long as we beat the English" eh!
Lets look at the evidence;
Wales - at home, needing a good win to stand any chance of avoiding the wooden spoon, resonably well prepared team (if unsuccessful), all of the tribal passions that accompany this match
vs,
England - developing, title chance will have probably gone by kick off, some players will be 4th choice for their position (No 8 for example),relatively little combined international experience.
Yeah go on Wales be proud of your win. (But what if you lose?!?!)
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Their seems to be a few hypocritical comments here! Somebody saying that the comments here are "soccer like" in describing the fact that they do not represent the majority of the good natured "Rugby like" fans beyond these blogs.
Well let me tell you discriminating, ignorant and hypocritical bloggers (who stereotype) that not all soccer fans are mean, tribal & hooligan like. Maybe there are soccer hooligans, but Soccer is the worlds most popular sport. There are plenty of volinteers that takes kids soccer teams in Ireland out. Many of them are poor or from poverty stricken areas. The FAI sponsor a lot of these leages /events. I don't see the IRFU doing this! And I played both Soocer & Rugby growing up. In Leinster there were only private schools playing Rugby in the 90s with the exception of 1 or 2 schools but fortunately Munster seems to have spread the game to public schools. I for 1 think we should stop sterotyping, promote all sports and stop this labelling junk. As for healthy rivalries and slaggin I'm all for that but there is no need for such nasty tribalism! Let sport prevail this Saturday...
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If Wales start well, they will win. If they play with confidence, their fantastic, free-flowing rugby will be the result, and England will not be able to live with them. The only other NH teams who can live with them in full flow are Ireland & France.
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Post 112 - Mad Max
Quality son - and spot on
You only have to look to the one
Welsh loon who cut one of his knackers off after Wales won in 2005 following the loss of a bet
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ignoranuses . . . is that a wonderful pun or a spelling mistake?
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Glynn -True to a degree, there is the perception that rugby is played by public school toffee nosed people in my country. However, not the whole of England. It is a game loved by all people in the South West. I am a fiercely passionate Devonian and rugby is enjoyed by all down here. Im looking forward to a good game tomorrow. Im just distraught that Phil Vickery is not leading the front row.
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Jimmers (post 117) Im at Swansea Uni too and love the atmosphere in JCs on a match day, theres always a good mix of fans. One of the great things about rugby has always been the respect between the fans, there should never be a problem with enjoying a drink with each other during and after the game. But I have also noticed the increased booing of the anthems, from both sides, and it really annoys me. Last year some Welsh fans booed the English anthem during the Ireland game, it shouldnt happen. I will always tell the booing England fans to shut up, but hopefully I wont have to tomorrow.
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