Why England may win historic Croker contest
- 20 Feb 07, 02:30 PM
Belfast - The England team will travel to Dublin this week well versed in the historical importance of Saturday's Six Nations match.
Former Ireland full-back Conor O’Shea is now the (English) Rugby Football Union's Director of Regional Academies and he gave them the low-down about the significance of the GAA’s move to allow rugby to play on the hallowed turf.
O’Shea would have been the perfect intermediary as his father was a genuine GAA star who won three All-Ireland medals with Kerry in the Fifties.
Reams of paper, a spectrum of radio waves and light years of cyberspace have been filled explaining what Saturday’s visit of England really means. Hopefully history does not overshadow the future.
I would suggest that the 82,000-odd spectators do what the supporters did back in 1973 when England broke the "embargo" over travelling to Dublin during the height of the "Troubles".
What happened? Well, John Pullin’s side were afforded the biggest standing ovation in the history of Lansdowne Road. It was the biggest welcome any visiting team had witnessed when they ran on to the pitch.
Then Ireland, with a certain Willie John McBride to the fore, proceeded to kick them back off it again. Led by Tom Kiernan, Ireland won 18-9 that day with debutant Dick Milliken and Tom Grace scoring tries.
I fancy Ireland will need some more of the same if England are to scuttle home defeated and better acquainted with the history of Irish forward play..
That, I feel, will be the key to the result, as it usually is. But I don’t think the Ireland pack have ignited all their rockets yet, hence the backs have been feeding on scraps. If there was ever a time for an 80-minute session like we witnessed against Australia back in November, this is it.
From start to finish, Ireland played like a team possessed against the Wallabies. They will need the same approach, a bit of good old-fashioned gut and gore. The whole key is to not let England settle, as France were allowed to do.
Then there is the Brian O’Driscoll factor. He was missed against France. It will be his first trot on to the Croke Park turf, and you can bet he will want to enjoy himself and savour the occasion by leading Ireland to their fourth successive victory over the old enemy.
And let’s face it, he still is the best centre in the world, no matter what some of you out there think.
So, inviting England to play at Croke Park is one thing, allowing them to win is another.
Before the Six Nations Championship started, I marked them out as the team that could spoil the party of all parties.
But while France have already done that dastardly deed, and sunk Ireland under their weight of expectation, I still believe England can further thwart Ireland’s hopes of a second successive Triple Crown. Why?
Well, for a start I have every respect for Brian Ashton as a coach, as do his players, and after a couple of rusty performances, his team will be very much clued in as to how to handle the Irish, no matter what the occasion throws up.
Then there is Jonny Wilkinson. Yes, I know, I know, we may be tired reading about England’s World Cup winner, but let’s be honest, he is a class player, and someone who can dictate a game – if allowed.
Ashton would have already worked out who was in and who was out of the Ireland team long before it became public knowledge. With O’Driscoll back in, Shane Horgan is shovelled along to the right wing and poor Geordan Murphy ostracised. I assume it is a form thing.
However, the doubt over Peter Stringer is a concern and will discolour Eddie O’Sullivan’s gameplan if the wee man from Munster fails to make it.
I watched Isaac Boss playing for Ulster last Friday, and while he may not have Stringer’s lightning pass, he does possess other attributes which could cause England a few headaches.
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Unfortunately the Six Nations has been devalued by the world cup and the meeting of England and Ireland, however historically pertinent, is overshadowed by the fact that neither of these teams has shown anything to suggest that they might be capable of seriously worrying New Zealand during the autumn.
For me, France are the only side in the tournament with a hope in hell of giving New Zealand a good game this time next year. They have a number of quality players lining up in almost ever position whereas Ireland only offer Trimble and Murphy (who are often slotted into the starting XV out of position) as genuine backup to their world class starting XV. Rugby is a sport played by 22 players nowadays and Ireland don't have the front row to compete with the best. The tactics they resorted to in order to retain and acquire possession of the ball against Wales and the lack of self-confidence the Irish side inherently has was highlighted by Clerc's stroll through the O'Driscolless Irish midfield.
England look reasonable compared with their disasterous form over the last few years but I'm not sure there's enough cohesion between the brains and the brawn of the side for them to be capable of playing adaptive rugby in the context of what occurs on the pitch itself rather than simply applying what can be reproduced on a training field.
France to win the title. Ireland v England at Croke Park is going to be a boxing match and I wish it could be played as a rugby match without the weight of history, a history for which none of the fifteen men running out for England are remotely responsible. It's childish and immature to mix politics and rugby and whilst I do believe that the British government should be held responsible for their actions on Bloody Sunday and I believe it's tragic that Hogan was shot by British troops and befitting that a tribune be named after him, I fail to see what this has to do with a game of rugby that is being played on a fantastic pitch, in a fantastic stadium as a favour to the Irish Rugby Union because their previous stadium is currently being demolished.
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Wish everyone would leave the politics out of this game, we're in the 21st century & it's time to move on. Don't forget that "God save the Queen" is the national anthem of many of us Ireland rugby fans in Northern Ireland !
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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just quick note i totally agree about murphy trimble is just no where near his class and although murphy was a doggey he is world class. But my main point is Stringer vrs Boss no way did BOSS PLAY WELL AGAINST FRANCE his snipping runs caused how many turn overs and passing poor o'gara no wonder he found it hard to find touch.
so basically all im saying is this hype about Boss annoys me and what really gets to me is why Stringer gets such a hard time he mightn be world class but he IS the best scrum half in Ireland!
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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If england are smart they will play winning rugby not attractive rugby.
they were criticised for not playing attractive rugby but if i am not too mistaken they did beat italy. ireland are a team who can attack you on all fronts (apart from the scrum) and for england to absorb all of irelands talents and the undeniable croke park factor they must play ugly rugby.
nobody in england wants to see another boring display of 3point kicking but it wins games and if ireland give away as many silly penalties as they did against france they may suffer dearly as jonny is a far more reliable kicker than skrela is for france.
england do have the guns to beat ireland at croke but dont be too surprised if we see another muscular display as anything else will play right into irelands hands
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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Big surprise leaving Neil Best out of the team.
Eddie O'Sullivan likes Easterby as a line-out option but Best's mean streak is what we need on saturday.
We cannot afford to start slowly and we need to hit early, hard and often.
We also need Stringer. Limited though his game may be his speed of pass give our backs that extra bit of room they need.
Why do we need a breaking scrum-half when we have the best centres and wingers in the 6 nations?
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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Peter Stringer - 'lightning pass'?????????? What planet are you on? Did you watch him against Wales? Stringer is one dimensional, slow and erratic. Brave - yes, committed -yes. Past it at international level -yes.
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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Reading your article made me reconsider your knowledge of rugby, while i do believe England have made vast improvements mostly due to the return of mr wilkinson they will be no match for the Irish. Im not getting carried away but the Irish are far better all over the park, from organisation to skill. FRance were a far different pedigree then the English, leaps and bounds ahead. It will be more Like the English will have to play more with their hearts, as Ireland are now over that stage and it has to accepted that they are a formidabble force in world rugby now. They are also playing at home.
I hope to God someone dosnt gone on about the Leicster pack putting Munster to the Sword as that was played in the lashing rain on a bad Munster Performance.
Unless the Irish fall apart I cant see any other result then a home win, even Wilkinson will probably kick another 15 points but still be on the losing side.
Im looking forward to a good game, but it's a huge test for the English and i totally disagree with you MRs Stokes.
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Reading your article made me reconsider your knowledge of rugby, while i do believe England have made vast improvements mostly due to the return of mr wilkinson they will be no match for the Irish. Im not getting carried away but the Irish are far better all over the park, from organisation to skill. FRance were a far different pedigree then the English, leaps and bounds ahead. It will be more Like the English will have to play more with their hearts, as Ireland are now over that stage and it has to accepted that they are a formidabble force in world rugby now. They are also playing at home.
I hope to God someone dosnt gone on about the Leicster pack putting Munster to the Sword as that was played in the lashing rain on a bad Munster Performance.
Unless the Irish fall apart I cant see any other result then a home win, even Wilkinson will probably kick another 15 points but still be on the losing side.
Im looking forward to a good game, but it's a huge test for the English and i totally disagree with you MRs Stokes.
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Good article. Think "God Save the Queen" will be interesting. I am going the match (and no I am not selling my tickets) and there has been talk here of people sitting down during GSTQ. I certainly will not be doing that. Nor will be giving the England team a standing ovation when they run onto the park!! The reason this was done in 1973 was because they defied the terrorist threats and travelled to Dublin-something which Wales and Scotland failed to do. There is no reason for them not to come...but that doesnt mean we shouldn't give them a warm reception..
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Boo it to the rafters, drown it out completely!
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It is impossible to leave the politcis out of this game. Absoutly imossible. The events of bloody Sunday are still in living memory not in some old dusty texts.
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The English deserve no more or no less applause than any other visiting team. I assume they will never disgrace themselves again like they did when Martin Johnson forced our Head of State to walk in the mud. As regards too the worry that there is too much talk of history, thats just ignorant. This is a monumental moment and should be duly acknowledged-the English enter Croke park as sporting guests rather than ruthless colonists.
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Why oh why would the Irish fans give the English team a standing ovation on Sat?? Get real, I thought you're last offering of how croker was unsuitable for rugby was bad enough but this is even worse.
The English team rightly deserved an ovation in '73 but I see no reason for it now.
As for the game I think Ireland will prove too strong in a number of areas, particularly with O'Driscoll back and Horgan on the wing. Murphy did nothing special against France to deserve to hold his place. If Ireland dont concede to many penalties they should see this through.
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With all due respect politics cannot be left out of a game of this magnitude considering what happened last time the english played at Croker. Furthermore, God save the Queen is the Britiah naional anthem you are supporting an irish team!
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It is impossible to leave the politcis out of this game. Absoutly imossible. The events of bloody Sunday are still in living memory not in some old dusty texts.
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Why oh why would the Irish fans give the English team a standing ovation on Sat?? Get real, I thought you're last offering of how croker was unsuitable for rugby was bad enough but this is even worse.
The English team rightly deserved an ovation in '73 but I see no reason for it now.
As for the game I think Ireland will prove too strong in a number of areas, particularly with O'Driscoll back and Horgan on the wing. Murphy did nothing special against France to deserve to hold his place. If Ireland dont concede to many penalties they should see this through.
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As an England fan, I agree totally with the comments regarding Brian Ashton but still feel that the squad are not totally 'gelled' yet. Whilst our forwards should at least match the Irish counterparts I do not see where our backs can break Ireland and in the same vein cannot see Ireland not crossing our line during 80 minutes.
Expecting a great reception, a hard-fought game but Irish celebrations. A close run thing will be good news for England in my eyes.
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What's all this stuff about 'Stringer's lightning pass'. Never been apparent to me. Accurate - okay, quick - no; there's quite a few quicker.
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Boo it to the rafters, drown it out completely!
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Disappointed that Neil Best is not in the team.
What we need is to hit hard, early and often. I'd love to see Best and O'Connell lining up a few white shirts early on.
O'Sullivan likes Easterby as a line out option but I think we need Best's mean streak more on saturday.
As for Stringer/Boss - why do we need a breaking scrum-half when we have the best outside backs in the 6 nations?
We need Stringer's speed of pass to give the backs that extra split-second. D'Arcy & O'Driscoll have the potential to run riot against Tindall & Farrell if they get the room.
Forget about the anthems - lets get on with the game!
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WHEN ON EARTH HAS STRINGER EVER HAD A LIGHTNING PASS??
It has to be one of the poorest pases ever seen in international rugby. Just watch how many of these "lightning passes" end up hitting the turf on Saturday.
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Stringer is the best scrum half in Ireland but he is equally on of the worst tacklers on the islands.
And although i hope god save the queen is respected on saturday, It is an offensive anthem to many GAA supporters in the 6 counties.
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"Stringer's lightning pass??!!" Where's that been all his career then? He has many attributes which make him an asset to the Ireland team but i don't think this is one of them... in fact i thought the service looked a lot sharper with Boss there, and I'd start him against england.
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Re 2. John i really dont understand you negative attitude to trimble. He is probably the most exciting talent to emerge from ireland in the last few years. Willie John Mcbride (in 2004 named "Henineken rugby personality of the century") said trimble is the player of his generation-so please dont talk about class.
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On the selection front.... I like Trimble, he's a very exciting player but given Dempsey can play two positions, surely he's the ideal sub?? I'm not too bothered about Boss vs Stringer. Stringer's distribution to O'Gara is fast and of a good standard but Boss, might be the man to help our forwards build a platform up front.
Hopefully the politics will be left out of it... In reply to what Stephen said, I'm just not happy about that comment. We're united under green and the 26 counties have accomodated our 6 in the north with an all island anthem which is a big deal for both sides... build your own indentity within the UK if need be just like Wales and Scotland. Having said that, if I'm brutally honest, I'd rather see England win unless there the crowd fails to respect the English national anthem.
What a corker it will be either way. Let's hope rugby wins.
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In reality the anthems issues is just being hyped up by the media on a slow news week. The nuts in RSF must be over the moon with the coverage they are getting. Their protest will number around 20 on the day.
It will be weird to hear God Save the Queen in Croke Park and I expect a few people to shuffle uncomfortably while it is being played. But as soon as it is over it will be forgotten about as we cheer on the Irish team. Given that the main Stand is named after one of the 14 murdered by British forces back in 1920 and that Hill 16 was built from the rubble of the rising, I don't think anyone is not going to be aware of the significance of the occasion.
Personally I look forward to hearing the British anthem being played as the away anthem in Croke Park. Last time 'they' were around it was the home anthem. Saturday will re-enforce the Republic's independance. It will be a good day to be a republican. Its there anthem not ours.
Having said that a good point was made above by an Ulsterman. It is an All Ireland team and that includes part of the UK. But on Saturday we will have 3 anthems sung and I don't really care which one people want to sing... just sing it with pride and let everyone else do the same.
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Why do england deserve a standing ovation? for playing a rugby match in a different stadium, its not like they are coming over under any sort of threat, if england deserve one so did france, dont really see the need for that. anyway back to rugby, i dont think england are consistent enough to beat ireland, even missing two important players against france ireland *almost* held out for a fantastic win, i can see o'driscoll, n d'acy ripping wilkinson and farrell to shreads
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When England come to Croke Park, politics cannot be forgotten about. It is disrespectful to Irish culture, Irish people and the GAA to ask people to simply forget about the meaning of the day. The english coming over to Croke Park is acceptable in this day of age as everything thankfully has moved on. But what is not acceptable is Irish people who are born on this island going to Croke park on saturday and proclaiming god save the queen to be their national anthem. It is that more than anything that would have Michael Hogan and countless other Irish men killed by the black and tans turn in their grave.
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Well said, poster no. 1. As an Englishman. I think it is fair to say that none of the English Rugby Team or supporters were at Croke Park in 1920!
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WHEN ON EARTH HAS STRINGER EVER HAD A LIGHTNING PASS??
It has to be one of the poorest pases ever seen in international rugby. Just watch how many of these "lightning passes" end up hitting the turf on Saturday.
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Fair play stephen. Even as someone from the south, I'm getting a bit bored of it. Should be a cracking game, Ireland to win by the odd point if Stringer makes it.
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The reason Boss's snipes ended up in turnovers is because the back row is so used to playing with a scrum half who offers NOTHING around the fringes! Unless Ireland have a 9 who posseses more than just ONE dimension, they will NEVER beat New Zealand. Those little rosy-cheeked chums Stringer and O'Gara will not take Ireland to the next level - they have lived charmed lives playing behind a great pack and inside great backs.
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Certainly, against England anything could happen. The game against France should have been won and was lost between the ears in the fading minutes - some very poor tactical decisions were made. For their part, England have played poorly so far and were flattered by two weaker sides. Scotland ran in 2 tries against them and Italy scored the only legitimate try of that match. So aside from Wilkinson's prowess with the boot, I don't fancy England's attacking capabilities - or defensive ones for that matter. Ireland by 10 points.
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Stringer is the best scrum half in Ireland but he is equally on of the worst tacklers on the island.
And although i hope god save the queen is respected on saturday, It is an offensive anthem to many GAA supporters in the 6 counties.
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It will be a cracker - that's for sure. I don't like polictics in sport, but sometimes it is hard to avoid - the history behind Croke Park is important and should not be forgotten, but it is not relevant to this weekend. A standing ovation for the English might be the best thing the crowd can do - if they are hostile it will galvanise the English and possibly heap more pressure on the Irish team as it would hammer home that defeat is unthinkable...can Ireland handle the pressure? looking forward to finding out.
Regarding Boss, I agree with John in Post 2 - he was one of the reasons Ireland lost to France - he snapped and sniped but to little effect and often at the wrong time. Stringer is not world class, but his pass is and the way he plays suits the team and the class outside him very well - he will be a loss if not fit....
Roll on the weekend....
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When England come to Croke Park, politics cannot be forgotten about. It is disrespectful to Irish culture, Irish people and the GAA to ask people to simply forget about the meaning of the day. The english coming over to Croke Park is acceptable in this day of age as everything thankfully has moved on. But what is not acceptable is Irish people who are born on this island going to Croke park on saturday and proclaiming god save the queen to be their national anthem. It is that more than anything that would have Michael Hogan and countless other Irish men killed by the black and tans turn in their grave.
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It will be a cracker - that's for sure. I don't like polictics in sport, but sometimes it is hard to avoid - the history behind Croke Park is important and should not be forgotten, but it is not relevant to this weekend. A standing ovation for the English might be the best thing the crowd can do - if they are hostile it will galvanise the English and possibly heap more pressure on the Irish team as it would hammer home that defeat is unthinkable...can Ireland handle the pressure? looking forward to finding out.
Regarding Boss, I agree with John in Post 2 - he was one of the reasons Ireland lost to France - he snapped and sniped but to little effect and often at the wrong time. Stringer is not world class, but his pass is and the way he plays suits the team and the class outside him very well - he will be a loss if not fit....
Roll on the weekend....
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Maybe Owen Reddan of Wasps should be given a game because he plays every week for wasps. I dislike Stringers play, but he compliments O'Gara. I think against England, Ireland need quick ball so the choice of scrum half is important and the battle with Harry Ellis is also vital.
As for the national anthems, there for pride and it is to make you feel proud of your country, even if it isn't a great!!
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On the selection front.... I like Trimble, he's a very exciting player but given Dempsey can play two positions, surely he's the ideal sub?? I'm not too bothered about Boss vs Stringer. Stringer's distribution to O'Gara is fast and of a good standard but Boss, might be the man to help our forwards build a platform up front.
Hopefully the politics will be left out of it... In reply to what Stephen said, I'm just not happy about that comment. We're united under green and the 26 counties have accomodated our 6 in the north with an all island anthem which is a big deal for both sides... build your own indentity within the UK if need be just like Wales and Scotland. Having said that, if I'm brutally honest, I'd rather see England win unless there the crowd fails to respect the English national anthem.
What a corker it will be either way. Let's hope rugby wins.
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I'd agree there's a chance that England could inflict a second loss in two games at Croke upon the Irish - but only ONE chance. If the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and are sufficiently punished for it by the officials, then you-know-who will inflict death by a thousand cuts with the boot.
For Ireland there are just too many positives. Despite all that will be written this week about the tragic history of Croke Park, I feel the Irish PLAYERS will have got the whole thing out of their system against France. They begam against both Wales and the French as if a different kind of history was weighing them down - namely the pressure to secure the Grand Slam. Given two weeks to get over the crushing disappointment of THAT try by Vincent Clerc, I expect Eddie O'Sullivan to prove just what a professional outfit he has moulded. Thy have (along with the French) the best finishers in the championship, and given rough parity up front, they should be the difference.
From England's point of view, the new look back line haven't had enough game time together to gel properly. And with the utmost respect to both the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs Farrell annd Tindall won't get nearly as much space and time when the two Irish centres get in their faces. Going the other way, I just don't see them being able to contain O'Driscoll and D'Arcy.
Overall, if Ireland limit mistakes and infractions, I can't see England creating enough to trouble them. And the Croke Park crowd can only help them now the GS is off the agenda.
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ah come on now, its one thing expecting god save the queen to be played at croke park - which while a lot of people would be not over the moon about, they would be willing to overlook - but its another to thint to expect Irish people, especially the owners of croke park - the GAA - to be over the moon about it and see it as a progression of society. No point in taking the moral high ground here, if you'd rather it werent played, and i would prefer it they didnt, you're quite entitled to that opinion, and are completely justified to have it.
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You are quite right, neither Ireland or England have looked like champions yet.
Don't be deceived by the Australian result though. The Aussies have got well documented issues in the forwards and all I saw was an illustration of what can happen if the mobile Irish pack are unopposed.
The French game illustrated the opposite.
Leinster's, and I believe Ireland's, fragility has always been the lack of quality ball in forward oriented contests. O'Driscoll is only an attacking threat if he gets the ball.
Last year aside,(England will never be that poor again), Ireland have started as underdogs and based their game on dogged defence scoring from scraps. It has worked more than its failed in recent times.
The pressure is now on them as favourites to make some of these plays and exert some control on the game. This may fall totally into England's hands.
We didn't see the real England against Italy but, ominously, they never once looked like losing.
If England are offered the space of a frenetic game, Messrs Farrell and Wilkinson might end up bossing it, or their lack of match fitness might be their undoing.
If they are offered a fight in the forwards England probably will end up winning.
I am looking forward to this one because neither team looks the finished article. That may change Saturday evening.
Ireland should win, England could.
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How has he not picked Neil Best again?He was far and away the best player during the Autumn and adss so much more than Easterby who is so often invisible. Is a big mistake against a very strong English pack and Best would have been an unwelcome name on the Irish teamsheet for the English boys. They will be delighted.
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Everyone I know is looking forward to a great match and we hold massive respect for the current Irish team. However, this is just a game and played by young men and watched by people who had nothing what's so ever to do with causing Bloody Sunday. They are generations apart and are probably disgusted by it as much anyone. Terrible as that day was, and it should be remembered in appropriate ways as any nation mourns, can't Ireland move on?
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The english revival is all hype if you ask me. I have seen nothing from them so far this term that would suggest a comeback. Scotland capitulated, making them look good. Italy didn't however and exposed many of the weeknesses that have been prevealent in the english setup for the past two years.
Add to that the Croker factor, the BOD factor and the return of the Telescopic Arm of Shaggy Horgan and I CANNOT see England covering the handicap. Ireland by 10!!!
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Please explain why the England team should be given a standing ovation? They should be applauding the irish for the honour of playing rugby at one of the greatest stadiums in Europe.
I hope GSTQ is respected and whilst history does play a part here and is very very real - England should be treated as just another foreign country coming to play in ireland.
Re northern supporters and GSTQ. I have to say this is a very good reason why England should use another anthem. However, I think if you are supporting Ireland then you support Ireland to the absolute detriment of the opposing team. Whatever you may think about rugby in ireland the all-ireland rugby team is an example of Irish nationalism in the vein of the United Irishmen. GSTQ is anathema to the overwhelming majority of people who support Ireland and the northern folk should respect that by not singing along AND nationlists should respect northern folk by not booing GSTQ. Amhran na bhfiann is not played at Northern Ireland soccer matches - yet that team is supposed to represent a nation with over 40% nationalists -
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Please explain why the England team should be given a standing ovation? They should be applauding the irish for the honour of playing rugby at one of the greatest stadiums in Europe.
I hope GSTQ is respected and whilst history does play a part here and is very very real - England should be treated as just another foreign country coming to play in ireland.
Re northern supporters and GSTQ. I have to say this is a very good reason why England should use another anthem. However, I think if you are supporting Ireland then you support Ireland to the absolute detriment of the opposing team. Whatever you may think about rugby in ireland the all-ireland rugby team is an example of Irish nationalism in the vein of the United Irishmen. GSTQ is anathema to the overwhelming majority of people who support Ireland and the northern folk should respect that by not singing along AND nationlists should respect northern folk by not booing GSTQ. Amhran na bhfiann is not played at Northern Ireland soccer matches - yet that team is supposed to represent a nation with over 40% nationalists -
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They are both dour anthems in comparison with the other countries in the six nations but they both deserve respect. We should remember that this is a Rugby team coming to play a match, nothing else. It will reflect very poorly on us as a nation if we cannot respect a national anthem being played regardless of the history involved. Getting Conor O'Shea to give them a history lesson shows that this set of players & management want to acknowledge and understand the significance of the event which is admirable in itself. And for the die hards, remember that the union jack was flying over croker a few years ago when the special olympics opening ceromany took place there. There were no objections then as it, like this was just a sporting event. Lets give our guests a very warm welcome to Croker and concentrate on winning the match.
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As an Ulster unionist, I've always felt somewhat excluded by the 'Soldiers Song' but that never lessened my support or enthusiam for the Irish team, even when there were no Ulstermen aboard. Any time I was not at the match or watching on TV the sound of it on the car radio provoked the hairs on the back of my neck to rise in pride and anticipation of a rollicking good match.
I hope that will be the case on saturday against what will be a very strong and aggressive England.
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Why should Ireland give England a standing ovation and a great reception? We'll give them the same as we give every other visiting team, which is a respectful silence during their national anthem and then we'll give our own team the great reception. We shouldn't have to make any grand gestures for them, shame on you for thinking we should.
It's another shame EOS hasn't picked Best, yet again, what does he have to do to get the chance he deserves?
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The sad reality is you can't take politics out of sport these days. The best thing to happen would be for the England team to lay a wreath at the foot of Hill 16 as an act of contrition for our forefathers mistakes, and move forward in the universal friendship that is rugby. We must never forget the mistakes of the past, but it is now time to move forward.
With regard to the match itself, I take England to win by a small margin. The "Munster" pack still seem shell-shocked from the mauling they received at the hands of Leicester, and if England can dominate to the same magnitude then Wilkinson's boot should do the rest. Not a pretty game though - England haven't got much flair in the backs.
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Stringer's pass is widely acknowledged to be the most laboured in the 6N. So far as the games goes, I back Ireland, completely. The English pack - part of the second half v Scotland aside - is looking suspiciously similar to last year's England pack. Slow ball from rucks, immobile and ineffective back row, over hyped front row . . . presuming John Hayes can manage to push in the scrum, I don't see any reason why the Irish pack won't come out on top.
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On these pages two weeks ago I predicted a 19-17 victory for France. It was 20-17. I am predicting a 29-15 victory for Ireland on sat. There is no way we are going to lose this one. O'Driscoll and D'arcy will run riot..
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Firsty, and from an Irish supporters point of view and one who is lucky enough to have I ticket I will be there to support my country and will sing both Irish anthems with pride and gusto, I will also respect the English national anthem. I just want the politics to be put to the side and for the game to commence. I hope that is the only respect we show them that day (on the field) and give them a lesson in rugby. I don't want the soccer mentality creeping into Rugby, that will be a sad day. I look forward to sharing some pints with our English friends, consoling them and rubbing some salt into the wounds ;-)
Secondly, I had a feeling that EOS would not change too much. Surprised at the total exclusion of Murphy but maybe justified. He has not performed consistently for Ireland on the big stage since he broke his leg. Their is no doubting his class but he just hasn't turned up of late aside from that cameo against Wales. I think we will see Best and Flannery earlier than we did against France and hopefully to close out the game. I think we need to start and play like we did against SA and Australia last Autumn and really get in the face of the English.
Thirdly, Stringer has a great pass and has been a consistent performer for Ireland, always gives 110%. His pass is excellent and this has been agreed (and talked about) by many top players (BBC pundits et al), so unless they are completely clueless/blind, where has this come from? He may not offer the snipping runs (Biarritz may beg to differ) but his understanding with O'Gara is key. Re. Post 11, worst tacklers?? Did you see the Heineken Cup final last year?? I think Boss will have his day but a fit Stringer is a better option at present.
Ireland, Ireland
Together standing TALL!!
Shoulder to Shoulder
We'll answer Irelands call!!!
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I was one of those who roared themselves hoarse before the game started in '73.
I had thought of appealing to the authorities to reserve tickets for those who were there on that momentous day,but no doubt 2 million would put there hands up.
Bearing in mind the courage of that English team in '73, when I believe they saved Irish Rugby, I sincerely hope that the occasion will not be spoiled by people who will go there with no other intention than to cause diseuption.
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All I'd like to see is both teams play to their potential for 80 minutes. If they both did that then I wouldn't care about the outcome. Still, it was only 4 points and a dodgy try that let Ireland scrape past us last year.
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All I'd like to see is both teams play to their potential for 80 minutes. If they both did that then I wouldn't care about the outcome. Still, it was only 4 points and a dodgy try that let Ireland scrape past us last year.
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I'm looking forward to the game. The past encounters have been pretty good games and this weekend should not be any different. I expect a very close game with Wilkinson making the difference in favor of England... barely.
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I think the team would benefit greatly from Neil Bets's inclusion, he's just what we could do with against England.
In response to Graeme, and the media to some extent, the Irish rugby team is made up of players, some of whom regard themselves as British and Irish. I don't particularly like God Save the Queen, but I'm getting pretty fed up with the exclusion of anything British in connection with Irish rugby. A long line of British Irishmen have served the team well over the years, and all rugby fans in Ireland should remember this.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the BBC?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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Shnig, which Bloody Sunday are you refering to? The one in the 20's when the IRA shot British soldiers/agents in cold blood or the more recent one when Para's shot nationalist civilians in Belfast? Remember that all sides have cause to mourn the recent and less recent 'troubles'.
The great thing about the Croke Park match, is that all that bloody history, important and painful as it is has been, is history and Ireland and England can compete and show respect and friendship within a shared and loved game. Let there never be a need or excuse for any more Irish/British violence....except in the tackle on the field of play!
I hope for a great day, and I am so sorry not to be there (as an Englishman married to an Irish woman) - let the best team win (as long as it doesn't give the title to the French)
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Shnig, which Bloody Sunday are you refering to? The one in the 20's when the IRA shot British soldiers/agents in cold blood or the more recent one when Para's shot nationalist civilians in Belfast? Remember that all sides have cause to mourn the recent and less recent 'troubles'.
The great thing about the Croke Park match, is that all that bloody history, important and painful as it is has been, is history and Ireland and England can compete and show respect and friendship within a shared and loved game. Let there never be a need or excuse for any more Irish/British violence....except in the tackle on the field of play!
I hope for a great day, and I am so sorry not to be there (as an Englishman married to an Irish woman) - let the best team win (as long as it doesn't give the title to the French)
PS Great post Mr. Madden
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the BBC?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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I'm not sure what last years score was (28-24maybe?) but I do remeber a good Ireland team was lucky to come away with a win aganst a "poor" England team. A bad discussion lead to one Irish try and a last gasp final minute try lead Ireland to victory. They connot rely on that this year. There pack must at least win 50-50 ball to make sure wilko doesn't have his way even then with Farrell able to fill the 10 role it may be hard to put pressure on the golden boy. Ireland need to score tries and agant a midfield with tindell and farrel that will be easier said than done.
England on the other hand need to play for terriotroy. Apart from Robinson they don't have attacking pace. What they do have is big ball carriers and lots of them. They need to pressure the irish pack to give away penalties and kick for the coners when the chance arises. Most of all they need to limit irish points. If Ireland can't score more than 15 point I think England will win.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the BBC?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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Re. 13 mrneenaw
so are you trying to tell me that trimble is better than Murphy. Trimble is a good player but noway better or evens with murphy.
what coach ever picked a player for winning a personality award?
O'Gara = class
O'Connell = class
Darcy = class
O'Driscoll = class
Trimble = sub bench
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The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the BBC?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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As an England supporter who sadly cannot get to Croke Park to witness a unique event, I would like to think that perhaps the England team and supporters could wear a small bit of 'green' to acknowledge the historical significance of the venue.
After that, the bloody politics should end and we can all settle down to watch what I hope will be one of the best Rugby matches of this year's 6 Nations.
In the meantime, thank you, Ireland, for your generosity of spirit.
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Very good point by Stephen in regards to the complete over exposure been given to Republican Sinn Fein, over God Save the Queen (GSTQ) been played in Croke Park,
but hopefully people will treat them with the contempt that they deserve on Saturday. I personally am delighted to see England and their anthem been played in Croker, although I do wish that England would get their own anthem, as GSTQ is the British anthem, and not the English anthem, but thats for another day. Anyway heres to a great day on Saturday, with Ireland winning after a titanic struggle
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While the history of Croke park is important and significant and should be talked about, i cannot help but feel the RFU are making a mistake by giving the plyaers lessons in its history.
France won because they treated as a concrete bowl like any other stadium they play in week in week out. England must do the same, and forget about the political implications of the game, which has no relevance to their task of winning what promises to be a spectacular game of rugby.
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Murphy is a waste of space in an Ireland shirt. Just because he flourishes in an appalling Guinness Premiership does not mean he's a world beater. When are people going to realise this. I am absolutely delighted this liability has been dropped.
Trimble has done more in a season then Murphy has ever done in an Ireland shirt. Murphy only raises his game when he's playing an Ireland club side. Good riddance to him.
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While the history of Croke park is important and significant and should be talked about, i cannot help but feel the RFU are making a mistake by giving the plyaers lessons in its history.
France won because they treated as a concrete bowl like any other stadium they play in week in week out. England must do the same, and forget about the political implications of the game, which has no relevance to their task of winning what promises to be a spectacular game of rugby.
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It should be an exciting game.
Ireland could be on a determined rebound after recent disappointments. England may be finding enough confidence to grasp a result. As an England supporter I doubt the bookmakers will see it that way.
I hope for good match officials throughout - no more dodgy TMO decisions please.
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John,
where would all your "class" players be if the selectors had left them on the bench. Players improve through playing at a higher level...using your logic the Irish team will soon follow the path of England and be relying on the past glories from players who have lost a step or two to age and injury.
I am still not convinced that O'Gara is truly a class act...he can be wildly inconsistent.
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John,
where would all your "class" players be if the selectors had left them on the bench. Players improve through playing at a higher level...using your logic the Irish team will soon follow the path of England and be relying on the past glories from players who have lost a step or two to age and injury.
I am still not convinced that O'Gara is truly a class act...he can be wildly inconsistent.
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France won because they were a better team on the day not because they thought Croke Park was just another stadium.
I think the RFU are educating the English players in order to avoid any diplomatic incidents etc, like the Martin Johnson snub? Obnoxious.
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John,
read mrneenaw's post again...the award you so disparagingly refer to was given to Willie John McBride...if you have an issue take it up with him...I am sure he could still instill some of the discipline he dispensed during his time in the Ireland jersey.
Trimble is recognised for his pace and power. He is a centre and EOS keeps putting him on the wing...so he is being used as a utility back, which in the long run may deprive him off the opportunity to reach his potential.
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I feel that the English front five will destroy the irish front five. The irish front row is poor and the second row has not played to it ability. The irish backs are much sharper than the english but will get no ball to do damage. I feel robinson will be the overall winning edge for England in a very close game!!
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The emotions worked against Ireland when they played France and they need to focus on the game this weekend. The media could let it go a bit too and focus more on sport than history.
I thought Boss was a bit slow against France and he did get caught a couple of times but he played quite a physical game and had some dreadful ball off the line out.
Let's hope we see a good game of rugby with a good win for Ireland.
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If Ireland get caught up in the politics, anthems and hype then they will loose. No doubt about that. If they can focus on their game-plan, front up in the scrum and most importantly, retain concentration at critical times then the result should be a formality. Ireland by 7.
While I expect Farrell to be exposed against more formidable opposition, the crunch battle will be Robinson/Horgan. Billy Whizz has been on fire this six nations and will target lanky Shane at every chance. However, Horgan's height advantage and great form in HC/ML will test Robinson and high balls from ROG.
Finally, would hope Ireland hold onto the ball more and allow the home crowd get behind the team. Should be a cracker!
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If Ireland get caught up in the politics, anthems and hype then they will loose. No doubt about that. If they can focus on their game-plan, front up in the scrum and most importantly, retain concentration at critical times then the result should be a formality. Ireland by 7.
While I expect Farrell to be exposed against more formidable opposition, the crunch battle will be Robinson/Horgan. Billy Whizz has been on fire this six nations and will target lanky Shane at every chance. However, Horgan's height advantage and great form in HC/ML will test Robinson and high balls from ROG.
Finally, would hope Ireland hold onto the ball more and allow the home crowd get behind the team. Should be a cracker!
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please,please let's forget about the politics and concentrate on the rugby...and lets just look forward to giving england a jolly good hiding!!
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As English born of Welsh and Scottish grandfathers, I agree that England should find their own anthem at international sports fixtures, not just rugby.
There are plenty of possibles, Jerusalem, etc,
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To the person who wrote No. 37,
Believe me, everyone I know in England would rather we sang our own anthem! It's just the intransigence of some bureaucrats that means we have to sing GSTQ
[end of politics]
Now on to the rugby. I honeslty can't see how England can get anything out of this game. I just think Ireland will be freed by the grand slam weight being taken off and play with passion, skill and pace.
The only way I can see England winning is if Ireland are extremely indisciplined and if we can recycle the ball much more effectively than we have been doing so far.
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Imagine if you will.....far fetched I know but the Croke Park issue is lost on most of you. Its a momentous event that no amount of blasé sticking your heads in the sand will sort out.
While England was under the control of the 3rd Reich an SS battalion entered Wembley Stadium and ruthlessly shot dead 14 men, women and children. After many years the German national team are due to play at the stadium for the first time following many years of horrendous violence from both sides..
How do you think the majority of English people would react?
a) Charitably
b) Wince at the thought of Uber alles booming through the stadium
c) Be openly hostile
How do you think the English press/Sports/Light entertainment presenters would react?
a) Charitably
b) Distribute free 'Revenge for Wembley' pull out posters
c) Print a list of insults in German to drown out their anthem
d) Engage in considered debate
Some might think this far fetched but in reality it isnt. How dare the English team and support expect a pat on the back for taking to the field of play / entering the stadium. How dare they play the victim card. How dear they equate this game with what went on in 1973. Vomitous.
They will get the same respect as any other team and then I hope Ireland tear them apart.
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There are some very heavy-handed posts here. I think having seen the press at work, that some of us are in danger of losing the perspective on the game.
The GAA have recognised that this is a sport without a home and offered a generous hand of friendship.
The English RFU have recognised the need to understand the significance of of this gesture by inviting the rugby-capped son of an All-Ireland medal winner to explain what Croke Park means.
Ulster supporters of the protestant tradition have recognised the generosity of nationalists in welcoming them to an icon of nationhood. For many of them in the six counties the GAA was tantamount to "the other side". They have had to do a lot of "moving on" themselves. Anyone living in the North will recognise the bitterness created for the vast majority by a few gobshoots and like all of us they have frankly had enough.
In Post #28 Stephen says
"But on Saturday we will have 3 anthems sung and I don't really care which one people want to sing... just sing it with pride and let everyone else do the same"
That is going to be the view of at least 80,000 of the crowd. Those who want to drag up a shameful past for everyone will be looked at with judgement as to their real agenda.
By the way, Ireland have far more capable forwards than the pre-season analysts suggested... competent enough in the front five and ever more effective in the loose. Because of that and a very talented back line, I see us winning by a few points.
I hope, really hope that travelling supporters have a fantastic time, respect the locals and return with happy memories (and empty wallets please)
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At Post 59
"Some might think this far fetched but in reality it isnt. How dare the English team and support expect a pat on the back for taking to the field of play / entering the stadium. How dare they play the victim card. How dear they equate this game with what went on in 1973. Vomitous"
England (or the English RFU) have shown no expectation of a "pat on the back" that I am aware of.
We Irish are really not bad ourselves at the victim thing. Only in Modern Ireland are most of us capable of shaking that attitude off. I have seen no "victim" mentality displayed by any public figure in the RFU.
This poster should focus on the fact that we are lucky to see what will be a fantastic game (hopefully) where both teams are required for the spectacle to work. I have had enough of having my views manipulated by the press and will take the historic element of Saturday with the modern perspective it needs. You can live in the past if you want, but you will miss a great game
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Post 62
Don't mix politics and sport. Ireland are going to play rugby not avenge the killings of 30 plus years ago.
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It seems England and the British are confused whenever it is convenient for the Irish. The Auxiliaries who did the shooting at Croke Park were not necessarily English and quite possibly Ulstermen.The Government at the time was British, not English (and indeed had been since 1801). I dont see the "English" playing the victim card..but at least one correspondent manufactures some outrage at some very straw dog arguments. I assume that he doesnt care for the Rugby.
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What is happening here? As a rugby fan, I really wish that the whole Croker thing had never arisen. Yes, I know this is very important to many people, but we're talking about a game of Rugby Union; I've always thought it inspiring that this wonderful sport is one of the few that doesn't distinguish between North and South, and all the historical, political and religious enmities can be put to one side, at least for the 80 minutes of the world's most compelling game (how did soccer get the 'beautiful game' moniker, by the way?). Of course we want 'our team' to win, whoever we are, but, unlike the history behind Croke, this is meant to be apolitical, unreligious, and simply a wonderful demonstration of how great RU can be; to the winner the spoils, and let's all have a beer afterwards. For the record, I consider myself English, but my paternal grandmother was Killarney born & bred; if England can't win the title, then I'll be cheering on Ireland (my maternal grandmother was French, so they can come 3rd).
I really can't be arsed to complain about SR's Nazi analogy in the previous post. Beyond contempt sounds too patronising, so I'd just like to point out that a relative of mine was killed in Warrington all those years ago.
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The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view.
YES!! Quite right..... THe English SHOULD NOT be singing GSTQ - We are English and are the ONLY ones without our OWN National anthem!! Not through OUR arrogance though.... it's just that WE always thought we WERE one UNITED kingdom and never saw the need for our own anthem .... So YEs other Celts share this view - ALL OF US ENGLISH CELTS of ancient ancestry, who have had our ancestors on these islands as long as the rest of US CELTS!!! thank you my fellow Celt for pointing out our lack of an anthem.
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SR, What a load of post colonial lowest common denominator whinneying. It's a rugby match it's got naff all to do with our respective histories, bloody as they are.
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To post No 62 (SR).
You're a poisonous individual and if this is what playing a game of Rugby at the sacred Croke Park means you’re very much welcome to it. The rebuilding of Lansdowne road probably couldn’t come quick enough for most people.
And as usual you been whipped up by the media frenzy and engulfed yourself in historic events in order to get your point across.
The English team (and I'm probably taking a shot in the dark, no pun intended there) wouldn't expect anything other than to play a game of rugby, but it individuals like you who take the comments and views of certain parts of the press and make them the views of the England players and the English as a whole.
On a lighter note people I'm looking forward to the game even if some of the viewing public (no post No's mentioned) would equate the English to a bunch of goose stepping maniacs intent on persecuting the Irish for fun.
Just thought I would also mention that while I really hope England win nothing other than and Ireland victory will be the outcome.
Now where did I put that brown shirt and swastika armband?
PS. I can't believe this is a topic of discussion, but I couldn't let narrow minded individuals have it all their own way.
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'citing though int it?
C O M E O N I R E L A N D !
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SR, What a load of post colonial lowest common denominator whinneying. It's a rugby match it's got naff all to do with our respective histories, bloody as they are.
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To post No 72, SR (Not 62, apologies to Pedrito)
You're a poisonous individual and if this is what playing a game of Rugby at the sacred Croke Park means you’re very much welcome to it. The rebuilding of Lansdowne road probably couldn’t come quick enough for most people.
And as usual you been whipped up by the media frenzy and engulfed yourself in historic events in order to get your point across.
The English team (and I'm probably taking a shot in the dark, no pun intended there) wouldn't expect anything other than to play a game of rugby, but it individuals like you who take the comments and views of certain parts of the press and make them the views of the England players and the English as a whole.
On a lighter note people I'm looking forward to the game even if some of the viewing public (no post No's mentioned) would equate the English to a bunch of goose stepping maniacs intent on persecuting the Irish for fun.
Just thought I would also mention that while I really hope England win nothing other than and Ireland victory will be the outcome.
Now where did I put that brown shirt and swastika armband?
PS. I can't believe this is a topic of discussion, but I couldn't let narrow minded individuals have it all their own way.
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If the Irish front five can gain parity then Ireland will win, otherwise I can see a repeat of Munster v Leicester a couple of weeks ago. I'm very surprised that Simon Best has been left out although I'm sure he'll make an impact with 20 minutes to go.
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Come on Ireland let us deliver a great result for the whole nation . I will be singing all 3 anthems on saturday and will do so with pride. I am an ulsterman but i am going to enjoy the experience. Still struggling with the selection process.
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Maybe the game should be played in a chip shop in Omar?
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A couple of points:
1) Jim Stokes never did explain his rationale as to why the crowd should give a standing ovation upon England's arrival on the pitch. I read the article this morning and am still mystified as to why would an ovation be appropriate. Is it to demonstrate "The New Ireland" and how magnanimous the Irish have become, in putting to one-side both centuries old aversion to the English and an inferiority complex now that there is an underlying confidence and wealth in the country? Or did he just have to fill column inches within a tight deadline?
2) To the Ulsterman who advocates that "His National Anthem" is also God Save the Queen, this backs up my own thought that the fewer Ulstermen on the Irish team, the better. That raw passion, and willingness to die for the team may just be lacking when most needed. Identity crises and insecurity seems the flavour of the day up north. It's probably best to sort out the racism issue of Ulster's own fans, Edinburgh, Trevor Brennan and Newport/Gwent, all complaining of racist actions in the last three months. Not a coincidence.
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It's simple everyone shows respect for each other and may the best team win.
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I agree with the questions on selection. EOS is being very conservative. Best and Flannery should be in with Murphy at the No. 15. The English will have to go after almost every Irishman on the pitch. The Irish will just have to go after Wilkenson.
As for the Croke Park issue. Abraham Lincoln once said, "I'm less concerned with what my grandfather was than what his grandson has become."
Let it go.
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I'm sticking to the rugby here. I agree with most of EOS's choices, however Ireland tend to have slow(very slow) starts and so Neil Best would be ideal to kick start Ireland into gear. His 17 minute cameo role against the french was awesome. He would make life hell for ellis and wilkinsin, argueably the two key players for England. Horgan on the wing will run riot when he cuts in to take on an inexperienced Farell. Darcy and BOD will tear the english midfield to shreads. Having Stringer and BOD back will be a huge boast. I cant see England winning this one, without Wilko they have nothing.
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Jim and Diarmid - thanks for two excellent comments and sorry if I am too lazy to congratulate the rest of you who also contributed great comments.
Whilst I appreciate the sensitivity of the issue. This is about a game of rugby and I hope it is a cracker!
To SR and the others who don't believe this is about rugby. The Germans launched indiscriminate bombs on london (incl. V1's & 2's), including Wembley, killing hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people. But Germany have played Wembley many times after two WW's and were given the honour of playing there last. They marched across most of Europe and are welcomed in most of those countries too without having their noses rubbed in it. A terrorist group, representing and funded by some Irish people, killed innocent women and children for many years in the name of Ireland up until very recently. And you want people to remember the actions of a group of irregulars almost 90 years ago in the name of Britain. Most of the perpetrators, as I understood it, were N. Irish, although my history is a little hazy there. If you want to remember that, good. But it has nothing to do with rugby and you have no "national moral superiority" because you've failed to move on.
Like all neighbouring countries with long histories it is easy to dig up reasons to be bitter, if you have the prejudice to do so. The reality is, the people of the British Isles have way, way, way more in common than different.
Thanks so much to those who refuse to get carried away with the politics and I am hoping dearly for a great game and may the best side win.
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I think the behaviour of post 29 is disgraceful!!! This is not football, and we do not want to it to turn into it. I am english and I'm not saying forget what happened on bloody sunday, but to stop going on about it, it was a dark day yes, but it was a very long time ago and it should in no way affect a game of rugby, which is a peaceful sport, played 80 years later!!!
And also while we are portraying the english as the bad guys in all of this, like a few posts have, lets not forget that the irish killed the british agents first!!
Anyway away from politics, I think England will play the normal dreary game they all ways do and jonny will probably kick them to victory seeing as his range is about 60m at a push! But i think it should be an exciting game!
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So, an article entitled 'Why England may win historic Croker contest' is based on the solid fact that you kind of though they might have beaten Ireland on a Grand Slam run, and now France stopped the Slam, you stll kind of think England might possibly win? So Ashton's not bad, and might know who's playing, and Wilko's not a bad kicker of the ball, and maybe Stringer has a sore hand. But the Boss is quite good too. So that's ok, then.
Well. What words can justify?
Nice one.
That's some snappy journalism.
Three gold stars.
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I am appalled by this post
"The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view."
If you knew anything about history GSTQ was written was to raise moral in england when the jacobites were rebelling in "the Forty Five" rebellion of 1745 when Wales wasn't even its own country, so it is the national anthem of england as well as the other members of the union, and they have as much right to play it as the others do, even if others decided to use different anthems!!!!
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wESTON LAD IS 100 PER CENT CORRECT....THE ANTHEM OF THE BUTCHERS APRON IS TOTALLY DESPISED BY ALL TRUE CELTS....THE SOLDIERS SONG AND THE WELSH ANTHEM ARE THE MOST EVOCATIVE,EMOTIONAL SONGS/TUNES ON GOD'S CLEAN EARTH !!!!!!!
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SR POST 92 TELLS THE TRUTH AND acceptlepercy talks of a few gobsh#tes ????? Just remember what these people have done to the IRISH over the centuries and think if it was the other way around.....YES JUST THINK ABOUT IT.........
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Sean m 114.....YES YOUR HISTORY IS VERY HAZY...THE BLACK AND TANS WERE OVERWHELMINGLY ENGLISH AND AS EVIL AS THE NAZIS....GOD SAVE IRELAND FROM THICK IGNORANT GUTLESS COWARDS LIKE YOU !!!!! HOPE IRELAND WIN WHETHER IT'S RUGBY,FOOTBALL OR ANYTHING ELSE....SAOIRSE !!!!!!
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I am a soccer nut and i always applauded the picking of an all irish team in rugby,boxing etc and longed for the day when i would see the same in soccer,After reading all this garbage about singing ones national song i find myself saying leave soccer the way it is until all these bigote grow up and put sports first .These people are not sports fans.History is history grow up for the love of ireland and the game
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I am a soccer nut and i always applauded the picking of an all irish team in rugby,boxing etc and longed for the day when i would see the same in soccer,After reading all this garbage about singing ones national song i find myself saying leave soccer the way it is until all these bigots grow up and put sports first .These people are not sports fans.History is history grow up for the love of Ireland and the game
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MY POST ABOUT WILLIE JOHN MCBRIDE WAS REMOVED,WHY.....I READ HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND HE IS CLEARLY A UNIONIST AND ANTI NATIONALIST !!!!!! I KNOW THIS IS ABOUT SPORT BUT YOU JUST CAN'T HIDE THE FACTS.....READ IT, HE SAID IT !! THE G.A.A MUST BE CONGRATULATED FOR ENDING THE RULE !!!!! IT MUST HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM !!! GOD BLESS !!
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APOLOGIES OISIN 114,I MEANT SEAN M 115 OF COURSE......I RECKON SEAN MUST BE ABOUT 5 GIVEN HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THESE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES....KNOWLEDGE IS EVERYTHING....IGNORANCE IS NOTHING !!! PS. I WAS GUTTED WHEN THE FRENCH WON IT LATE ON AS I TRULY BELIEVED IRELAND HAD A GENUINE CHANCE OF THE GRAND SLAM.
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Guys - its RUGBY not POLITICS. SR you have no place in a rugby crowd if thats how you think. This is a game of rugby, its football who have the hooligans, gobsh*tes and so on, don't degenerate into them!
Move on, whining about things that happened almost a century ago won't help anything.
England to win by a few points (unless O'Connell and O'Callaghan get better play the way the can and failed to do last time out)
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I agree with the lad who says that the RFU has made a mistake by going on about the history of Croke Park. It's a stadium like any other big stadium in Europe; big old concrete thing with bars, restaurants, parking outside, bunch of seats and a green bit in the middle where all the business goes on. Deal with it and play the game. The 6 nations has been laden down with too much nationalist nonsense in recent years; crystallized in the re-enactments of Bannockburn we see at Murrayfield. Good grief! Get a life people and move on! Imagine the outcry if at Twickenham, the ERFU lined up a bunch of actors in kilts and simulated firing grapeshot at them in remembrance of Culloden! "Do not pass Go! Proceed directly to the European Court of Human Rights! Pay 200 Million in regional aid!"
I am an ex-pat Englishman who have the pleasure of being in the UK to watch this game on Saturday and I am looking forward to a good match (which Ireland will probably win unless we can keep them under 15 points). I will frankly care not a whit about the history involved 'COS IT'S OVER (and that comes from a bloke half of whose family are Irish immigrants from Liverpool)!
As for the Anthem. Yes we know GSTQ is tedious but it's what English teams sing before every game regardless of the sport from rugby to tiddly winks because SHE IS OUR QUEEN like it or not! And yes we know she's not the Queen "Most of Ireland" and hasn't had a claim on the place for 90 years plus. History lesson well and truly over; we get it. Would we rather have "Land of Hope and Glory" or "Jerusalem"? Absolutely, but it is what it is. The correct response from the Celtic Nations would be to let it be sung and not get brassed off by it or boo it. We don't boo anyone else's anthem (not even the one that drones on about a medieval victory over a bunch of disorganized chinless wonders and a King of dubious sexual preference) and you don't boo the Marseillaise. Have the courtesy to do the same for us and the world will be a happier place.
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Dear Daniel 118 as a scotsman I am truly appalled by the line in GSTQ which states rebellious SCOTS to crush....all these centuries later these lyrics still stand....TRULY APPALLING and as we all know it is still an ANTI CATHOLIC INSTITUTION !!! When will this lot move into the 21 st century and end THEIR BIGOTRY !!!! If they do then maybe we can all move on....GOD BLESS !!!
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SHE IS OUR QUEEN MR JOHNSON ????? YOU WOULD BE DISTRAUGHT IF YOU REALISED HOW MANY BRITISH PEOPLE WANT RID OF THESE PARASITES NOT LEAST OF ALL US TRUE SCOTS...VIVE LE REPUBLIC !!!
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Astounded by some of the political claptrap on here. I am English with strong Irish family connections and looking forward to a magnificent contest at the weekend. Too close to call for my money but should be one of the most exciting games of the year.
For the record, the vast majority of English people would prefer Jerusalem or Land of Hope and Glory as our anthem. Most of us believe we have far more in common with the Irish than differences. English nationalism is growing ever stronger and there is great support for complete independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The sooner the better. As a few posters have said, we need to move on. There were despicable acts committed by both sides over the years and both sides suffered some terrible losses. What this has to do with a game of rugby is beyond me.
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The one game I felt rose above the politics that seem to be taking over everything. History is history nothing can be done to change the past. Lets just enjoy the spectacle and the sport.
Gerry
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Having read this blog and as an Irish man, I now know why I left the country 17 years ago. I not only sat in the stands at Croker from the age of six, I also had the pleasure to play GAA there. National pride is one thing, not having the brains to realise that while a lot of the bloggers here are deep in thought about Bloody Sunday, the intelligent Irish men amoung us have moved on.
It's a game of Rugby and I'm sure the English team have already been given a history lesson on Croker and will bring the necessary respect for the place with them.
However, Í bet they will not bring any respect for the Irish Rugby team with them and that will be the Irish downfall. The Irish lack the killer instinct in any sport when it comes to Internationals, it's the Irish way of life. Who plays where and why won't really matter. Just enjoy!
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Source: Canadian Journal of History, David Leeson
More than eighty years later, new documents may finally resolve the debate over the Croke Park massacre. In the days after Bloody Sunday, two military courts of inquiry were held: their proceedings were held back by the government, but have now been released at last. When these proceedings are combined with evidence from other contemporary sources, the causes of the massacre become clear. The police did not go to Croke Park seeking revenge: they really were planning to round up the crowd, and search for weapons and wanted men. Once they came to the park, however, a few shots were fired-not by rebel pickets but by the police themselves. Spectators panicked and fled. Police panicked and started shooting indiscriminately. Their officers restored order after less than two minutes but they were too late. Nine people were dead, another five were dying, and dozens more had been injured.
Hoping for a great match where both teams play to their true potential.
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If Ireland can ruck and clear out the ruck as well as they did against Australia and in the second half against France, they will win. D'Arcy and BOD are the best centre pairing in world rugby and given quick ball they will be unstoppable.
Ashton knows this (obviously!)and the task for England will be to get to O' Gara fast, forcing him deep at set pieces and to be quickest to the breakdown and hit it like the ABs. Ireland dominated more in the second half against France because Betsen is not as good as he was, and is slower than he was and he got tired. This allowed O' Gara more time and he started to rule the game. If Lund plays they way he did against Stade Francaise in Paris, or if Reese is brought on and plays the way he did against Sale, the outcome could be an England win. Fast pick and drive through the middle with quick off-loading will be England's best hope. Ireland will try the same but will want to release BOD earlier.
The forward battle will be evens, England's front three may just tip the balance.
England lack pace in the backs and loose kicking could give it to Ireland. One spark of genius could be the difference. It will depend how much Ireland want to win.
As an English rugby supporter, I would like to see England drop GSTQ as it is allegedly the anthem of the Union, not the English anthem. Let's have Land of Hope and Glory, it was played at the Commonwealth Games in Manchester. Each team needs its own anthem, no point in playing the British one.
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why would anyone want to boo GSTQ?
have you ever watched the ulstermen during the irish anthem, there lips are sealed, the game on saturday should be played as a rugby game not a history lesson, we dont boo the german anthem when they play football over here, my wife is Irish and i have many friends in Dublin who live in 2007 not 1920
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Ref 94 and Jerusalem as an English national anthem. I can already hear the cries of Israelis, Palestinians; Jews, Christians and Moslems alike. Let's face it National Anthems' are Naff; consign them to the dustbin of history. Lets just get on with the game!
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To Dan Kearns (no 118),
Irrelevant of history, GSTQ is the BRITISH national anthem and should be played at sporting events where BRITAIN are competing. And if 'the majority' of English want something different (as mentioned in a previous post), why don't they get off their velvet seats at 'HQ' and make their feelings clear to the RFU!
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This is incredible stuff. "Poisonous", "Political". You all completely missed the point. Utterly.
Have any of you people read The Sun, Mirror, Daily Express etc etc etc in the week leading up to a Germany V England, or England V Argentina match?
I am simply pointing out that if the stadium incident (Bloody Sunday) occured within England do you think there would be a respectful silence in the media or on the day? You must be joking!!!
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Danny Murphy you are pathetic. No one should boo anyones anthem. No, the English should not get a standing ovation or any 'special' treatment at all for that matter both negative and positive. It is a rugby match, what happened happened but none of the English players were involved. Grow up or get out.
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Lads,
There's a famine in africa, the climate is changing, I have to give up choclate for lent.
Just watch the game.
Yet again Ireland have to worry about settling for second because EOS won't pick the form players. Thank good someone made a plate for the triple crown. Look what he is able to do with the best pool of players available to Ireland in the last 50 or so years. Neil best should have been picked from the start. He stood up to the aussies, and stood up to the french. We were lucky we weren't further behind at half time.
England can sneak this if they drag the came to their level, like Ireland tried to do all thorough the 80's and 90's
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Why is everyone insisting on turning what should be a fantastic encounter into a history lesson?!
Also I wouldn't right england off too easily!
Just watch and enjoy the game!!
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The bigotry and idiotic content of some of the posts here doesnt really surprise me. I am an Englishman living in Ireland and am constantly amazed at the levels of anti English racism which is endemic in this society and is preached in National schools and even church. My 8 year old daughter is regularly indoctrinated at school with anti English propaganda and no-one even questions it or even seems to realise they are doing it. The Irish love to wallow in their subjugated past. Even now with the Celtic Tiger roaring they cant and wont let go and move on. Every single one of my 10 year old son's friends wears an English premiership soccer shirt and avidly watches Match of the Day but are forbidden from supporting their footballing heroes when they play for England. Kids dont care about these things. Stop the preaching and in a generation the problem is greatly reduced.
As for the post about the anti Scotish/Catholic lyrics to GSTQ what about the dirge that the Scotish sing prior to games? Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that crowing about defeating the English in a battle hundreds of years ago? Very pc and not at all racist then.
Saturday is about rugby. Dreadful things happened on both sides nearly a century ago but for Gods sake let go and move on.
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Saturday will not be the first time that GSTQ will be played at Croke Park. It was played during the Special Olympics and the Union Jack flew over Croke Park for that event. I do not recall any outcry from the from the self appointed guardians of Ireland and Irishness.
Giving the zealots and bigots oxygen to fan the flames of hatred serves nobody but themselves
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Judging by the posts the Irish are worried. And understandable. It is hard to bounce back from defeat in 6 Nations. Wales won Grand Slam with a momentum that seemed unstoppable after beating England. Psychologically England are in the driving seat with 2 from 2 and have momentum. It has the potential to be the game of the tournament, but defence will smother the game entirely. 12-6 to England.
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The second point made in Post 111 postulates that Ulstermen may lack the "raw passion" required when playing for Ireland. This is an insult to past greats such as Willie John McBride, past stalwarths such as Paddy Johns, and current team members such as Neil Best (ask the Australians if he has enough "raw passion"). Davy Tweed, a staunch Unionist, played with a huge amount of passion on the few occasions he wore the green shirt. Sean, I hope that you know very little about rugby, as if you know your rugby and make such a comment you are simply a bigot.
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Its rather sad that a preview of a fascinating game of rugby should be clouded by political issues. Why do we have national anthems before sporting internationals anyway? What purpose is fulfilled? The players are hyped up and ready to go, the supporters are tanked up and ready to go - The whole pre-match VIP introductions and anthems ballyhoo is an anticlimax which merely delays what we are all looking forward to.
On purely aesthetic grounds "The Soldier's Song" is up there with French, Welsh and Italian anthems while GSTQ, "Ireland's Call" and "Flower of Scotland" are crimes against music. As for a separate English anthem, "Jerusalem" is too long, and "Land of Hope and Glory" is sentimental twaddle. Better to do away with all of them.
Ireland will have settled the Croker nerves while England have too many questions to answer post Italy. Ireland to win by 10 points.
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As a Dubliner, I can't wait for the game and I can't get a ticket for love nor money.
It's a brilliant occasion, England playing in Croker, and one which makes me truly proud of the political efforts of all sides over the recent years to bring the situation to this, maturity and respect and forward looking have prevailed thank God.
GSTQ will indeed be an extraordinary moment in Croker; of course it will be respected, like the anthem of any nation.
Ireland to win after a cracking game. I think EOS is brilliant; tough but correct calls; really sorry for Murphy, he is my only concern that his confidence doesn't get permanent damage due to this 6 nations campaign, he is much needed and has a big role to play in the world cup I hope.
Stringer's pass is world class. He may be small but it is worth it because we have the best back line so any advantage to getting ball to them is to be prioritised.
A huge welcome to all travelling English supporters, may you have a wonderful trip and I hope you find solace in Arthur Guinness after your hard fought defeat!
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SR post96, imagine if you will impossible as it may seem, that instead the Nazis had spent a summer bombing London,Coventry,Bristol killing 1000s of innocents! 25 years later the German national football team play at Wembley in a world cup final which is still remebered as a fantastic occasion played and supported in the correct manner!!
Oh that actually did happen!
Get over yourself.
This is a sporting occasion, not an excuse to bang the war drum!
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Just to clear a few things up - England have every chance of beating Ireland and it is not a case of Wilkinson kicking the penalties - England have shown so far that they have a good side that will do what it takes to win - OK I havent yet seen a performance that will beat Ireland but if England go onto the pitch on Saturday and really set their minds to it they can win -they can force Ireland back they can force them to make mistakes and dont forget there are many players who are hungry for tries. As an English Man I can say that Ireland are looking the stronger of the two sides at the moment but then again England are out for the Grand Slam - England need to show the World that they are a force capable of at the very least defending their title - I am not saying they will retain it but they can put up an adequate defence but only if they win the Grandslam - Ireland are a good side but put them up against New Zealand and you can see the difference - Ireland will of course be after a win because of the historical significance of Croke Park but lets not forget whats on the players minds as they play - it is not the events that took place on Bloody Sunday it is not the historical significance of playing at Croke Park - all either side will care about is a win - Brian Ashton has made a wise decision in his squad line up and whilst France are experimenting and winning England need consistency so that is why the side remains relatively unchanged - so all I can say is at the End of the day the team that plays the best will win - hopefully that will be England but I think this game is a game where the two best teams in the tournament face each other and only one can come out the victor.
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Irish living in Australia, working with the Australian Defence Forces where in every mess there hangs a portrait of QE2. And my point! There is none. I don't lose a nights sleep over this. Looking forward to watching the game with my many English and Irish friends on Sat(Sun morning here; 0330am, Jasus that's a late one)
Saturday will come and go and following the game I know that many an Irish person will don their English premiership jerseys to go to the pub and cheer on their favourite English team.
Enjoy the game everyone.
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So we are reliant on JW? Is Ireland not reliant on BO'D?
As for history? This is the past and has gone, the thing i love about being British is my tolerance towards others and its very easy in this country not to be tolerant, but being a rugby fan i will not go down the route others on this post have, lets have a great day on saturday and let the best teams win.
I was cheering Ireland on when the beat Australia and will always cheer the team closest to home on. I am and will be better than the whingers on here.
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Post 118 neatly illustrates why GSTQ should be reserved for events where GB play as a whole (e.g. Olympics), but England should have it's own Anthem (as Scotland and Wales use).
Personally, I find GSTQ to be a bit dull. It's a dirge. Compared to the uplifting tunes some of our continental neighbours have, it pales into blandness (e.g. the Marseillaise).
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Dan Elliott,
Just to clear a few more things up,
England have ALWAYS been reliant on Wilkinson to kick their penalties, oh, AND score the odd try that shouldn't have been. Without him they have been, well, what they really are without him - average.
They are reliant on their pack, big inside backs and JW's boot, but sadly in the modern professional game of creatine-fuelled monsters, that's enough to win at times, as proved in the last world cup.
If Ireland's pack can match Englands they will win due to far more creative and talented backs (outside Stringer and O'Gara).
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by the sounds of things Mr. James Stokes Esq. would like to be the one singing "God..ahem...Save the Queen" in Croke Park.....Hard luck Jim, we've already asked the Wolfe Tones to perform on the day.....
Go On Ireland!!
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Post 150.
Good on ya Surreypuma.
How wonderful to live so far away from this remember the past attitude. Learn from the past some of you and stop living in it.
Ireland to win by 6.
Liamaroo.
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Leave the historical musings and the resulting misgivings to the (minority) of GAA people - their organisation voted overwhelmingly to allow/welcome other sports to Croke Park, that's that.
National anthems - what a can of worms! Undoubtedly, the singing of anthems adds to the spectacle, the sense of occasion and the atmosphere; but sport should be divorced from politics and, in the distant future, our descendants will look back on the current era with astonishment that inflammatory and unnecessary songs are wailed before sporting occasions (I hope so anyway!).
Ireland and England are two flawed teams. There won't be much more than the kick of a ball between them at the end. I will be shouting for Ireland from my couch in Surrey.
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Only the feeble-minded will view this rugby match as having any political significance whatsoever. Bringing up tragedies like Bloody Sunday in the context of a sporting event is unfortunate in the extreme. What about Warren Point? Should we start an atrocities match? Lots of things happened in the six counties during the troubles that all sides have cause to regret but unless we start looking forward rather than back, we'll never get anywhere.
I'm looking forward to a game of rugby football played between thirty skillful guys with more talent that I could ever have dreamed of. I appreciate the gesture made by the GAA in allowing Ireland to play rugby at Croke Park. The sadness, for me, is that it should have any significance. The greatest thing, surely, is that the Irish rugby team is representative of the whole of the island of Ireland - the only sporting team so composed to my knowledge. maybe it is to that fact that we should all be looking on the weekend.
It's time to stop re-fighting ancient battles and accept that the past c