Do we need nationalistic rivalry?
- 26 Jan 07, 06:00 PM
Glasgow - Are rugby fans more aggressive toward each other now? Especially this silly nonsense between small-minded Scots and equally small-minded English fans?
Do I sense that in some of the postings here, and do I see it and hear it at weekends?
Do we really dislike each other because someone, a long time ago, drew a line in the ground, called it a border, and persuaded us all that those across it were different?
When I was a kid I went to Murrayfield to watch the internationals. I think I can say, hand on heart, that I looked forward to the (then) Five Nations like an excited child anticipating a first bike for Christmas.
I bordered on the lunatic that way, and I still feel the same way with the Six Nations a week hence. This time of year gives me one more reason to live. I love it. My heart, I swear, beats a little faster.
And I know you lot do as well, which is why you are reading a rugby blog.
So, aged 16 or so, I would cram on the train from Glasgow with maybe 10 of my friends. As it pulled in to Haymarket we would spill from it, joining the throng as this mass of people drifted, as one, along the main road west toward the stadium.
Inside Murrayfield we would gather. “Meet you under the clock” having been the parting phrase to those leaving to answer mother nature’s call, as if thousands of people could actually meet under one clock.
And we would be with Welsh fans, or Irish fans, or English fans, or French fans, depending on the game. They would offer us sips from their hip flasks. If they scored we would pat our new friends on the back. They would do the same to us. The French had food; they had flaming live chickens sometimes.
The memories merge now, because by the end of these nights as we raced for the train home we had made new friends (whom we would never see again) and had a few beers in the process. I think I can safely say they were the best days of my life.
Now? Well, given devolution, I think the Scots have become more anti-English, and the English have become more anti-Scottish. And I don’t like it. It just doesn’t feel right. It feels so pointless.
I was at a Glasgow game with Ulster recently and the Ulster fans were singing “You’re just a small part of England…..” and I thought: they are trying to insult us. What’s this about? I thought we were all rugby fans.
Isn’t the Six Nations a time to bring fans, in fact people, from different countries together so that they can share something they have in common, which is a great game, rather than rub each other up the wrong way just because although we live on the same bit of land there are a few lines drawn on it called borders that convince us we are different?
Or am I living in cloud cuckoo land?
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Totally agree with comments posted,we don`t want to go down the road of football. Part of my love of Rugby is being able to mix freely with other fans from other nations in a friendly atomsphere. Some light hearted banter is fine but insults to do with which team or country you support have no place in rugby crowds.
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I went to Twickenham with a Welsh mate of mine last 6 Nations. We didn't have tickets, but just went for the banter and a few beers in the pubs. We spent the day jokingly winding each other up and having a laugh. Obviously I was delighted when England won and he had to get the beers in. We got chatting to half the pub, welsh and english fans, and everyone was enjoying the fun and discussing the rugby. The whole day was great and even my Welsh counterpart cheered up after a couple of beers. We then got on the train to go to London when a group of lads, about 16 years old, asked me what I was doing with a Welsh loser and numerous other derogatory remarks. It made me feel ashamed that English fans could behave in such a way. I've always thought Rugby was one sport where these stupid boundaries and stereotypes didn't exist.
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cloud cuckoo land. definitely
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I aggree. I live in England and have all my life yet consider myself a Scot due to all my family being Scottish. I have been visiting Murrayfield for over 12 years now and get the same feeling every time as mentioned above walking down from the centre of Edinburgh following the massive crowd down the streets. In that time I have also noticed a slight but obvious change in attitudes and it's not needed especially in Rugby! I have many English friends and we all take the mic out of each other of course, but we would never go any further than that. I travel up from England for almost every Scotland rugby international and feel proud to wear my shirt and drive my car (with accompaning saltire sticker on rear) up the road passing all the traveling English fans and then enjoing their company for a few (or many) beers once in Edinburgh. This is the way it should be, after all we don't want to turn into these so called football "fans" now do we?!!
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Yeah, I remember standing at Murrayfield several years back, belting out the Marseillaise with some French fans we'd met. Have things changed that much though?
For example, I'm not convinced that devolution has driven a wedge between Scottish and English fans. I think when people become more confident in their own identity, they tend to get on better with other folk. Perhaps it's the uncertainty that's the problem - maybe independence is the way forward?
However I do feel the current climate of commercialism in sport tends to lay too much stress on confrontationalism. The media aspect is so all-pervasive that the characteristic fan vibe of individual sports is being lost in a homogeneous "supporter" image - a kind of manufactured tribalism that fails to reflect the richness of human nature and interaction.
But I sense the beginnings now of a move away from that - I think the more interactive nature of the internet over television is changing things, providing a more pluralistic environment where once again human character takes over from manufactured self-image. We'll see how this filters down into the sociology of the games themselves over the next few years.
Still looking forward to the Six Nations, that's for sure. C'mon the smallpartofengland lads!
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It is difficult to contradict someone who has given so much pleasure on the field of play ( and continues to do so through lineage). However, I feel that the opine of John Beattie leans towards nostalgia at too great an incline.
I am a fan of football and rugby( it is possible ) and recognise easily the differences in the demograhic of the crowd.I am all for sportsmanship and fraternity but at the same time have no issues with baiting. Mr Beattie knows all too well that it occurs on the pitch to a degree. So why not in the stands?
The important factor is not the attempt to ruffle feathers or irritate, but the where the line is drawn.
Over the years of avidly watching live sport, I have experienced the same levels of boorishness at football and rugby, it is just that the accents tend to differ!
I currently live overseas, but will be home the night before the Welsh game at Murrayfield. I hope indeed to make some " new friends ", but I shall not lose too much sleep if some entirely expectable jibes come our way.
To John Beattie, I send my best regards.
Sincerely
Alan Morton
( on the banks of a sunny Lake Geneva )
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rugby has always had the image of fans being able to mix and not riot like football. But people have to be careful when watching because we (the rugby supporters) don't want the football image. It's not wanted and not needed
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I may be biased but I think the English attitude has hardened towards the Scots and I put the blame largely on the latter. We have had to endure years of the Scottish attitude that they would support any team rather than England when the reverse attitude was very rare. Only last year, Andrew Murray voiced that same view during the World Cup and was surprised at the reaction he got. He had obviously forgotten that the vast majority of people cheering him on at Wimbledon had not travelled from across the border but were English. Scottish devolution, Scots running the country and with a Scot about to become PM, Scottish MPs voting on English issues have all led to an increase in the number of people who recognise themselves as English rather than British. I count myself as one of those. That said, I would hate to see the end of 'Great Britain' and for rugby to descend to the depths that football has plumbed. A healthy rivalry but above all respect has always been the rugby way and it cannot be lost.
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I may be biased but I think the English attitude has hardened towards the Scots and I put the blame largely on the latter. We have had to endure years of the Scottish attitude that they would support any team rather than England when the reverse attitude was very rare. Only last year, Andrew Murray voiced that same view during the World Cup and was surprised at the reaction he got. He had obviously forgotten that the vast majority of people cheering him on at Wimbledon had not travelled from across the border but were English. Scottish devolution, Scots running the country and with a Scot about to become PM, Scottish MPs voting on English issues have all led to an increase in the number of people who recognise themselves as English rather than British. I count myself as one of those. That said, I would hate to see the end of 'Great Britain' and for rugby to descend to the depths that football has plumbed. A healthy rivalry but above all respect has always been the rugby way and it cannot be lost.
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I really agree with this. I study in Aberdeen and while the Scots do like their banter, some of it does border on the spiteful and is just designed to pointlessly wind up us English.
I do agree though that we do bang on ALOT for ages whenever England wins something (the Ashes for example) and that does annoy alot of people and embarrass alot of English fans who just see the media and politicians jumping on the bandwagon!
On the other side though, there are loads of Scots who quite happily watch games with their English counterparts with lighthearted banter and that is excellent.
I mean, can't we just be friends? :)
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As a Englishman in Edinburgh I've never seen anything unpleasant in a rugby crowd and I hope it always stays that way.
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I agree with everything you say and if you needed reassurance no, you are not in cuckoo land.
I must say that with the arrival of the professional era I expected more football-like behaviour on the pitch but it saddens me to read about the incident in Glasgow. Let's hope it was a one-off as rugby, I think, is still a happy oasis of sporting behaviour.
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Are these the same Ulster fans that allegedly wound up a certain Mr T Brennan?
Lets get rid of this football style chanting and bring back the traditional singing.
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Cloud cuckoo land? No. But it is like trying to get your 7 year old twin boys to stop fighting - you know that they should cherish each other but instead they choose to knock lumps out of each other.
I'm a genuine home nations "mongrel" (one grandparent from each of Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland) and also thoroughly look forward to the Six Nations tournament. It does sadden me to see and hear the insults and stereotyping thrown backwards and forwards, particularly when we all live together on two chunks of rock.
So folks, let's leave the name calling to the kids in the playground, and get on with watching one of the best rugby competitions in the world.
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I agree with the sentiment but I don't agree that things are that bad. I don't know what games you have been going to recently but they seem as friendly as ever to me- with fans from all sides mixing freely in exchange of banter, singing of songs, swapping of hip flasks and I've even heard of getting bought a drink or 2 from a few tight-fisted scots!!! Rugby support is completely different from football in that respect, and always will be. As for the Ulster fans- I think that the perceived "insult" should be taken in the manner in which it was handed out- with a huge barrell of salt, a cheeky grin, and maybe a swig of bushmills...
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I'm a dyed in the wool England fan and have been since the late 70's, I have the Rose tattooed on my arm (alcohol and the 5 Nations have a lot to answer for!) and I agree whole heartedly, my first away game was in the early 90's at Murrayfield and it was an amazing experience. I met some brilliant rugby fans, English, Scotish and even a Russian international 2nd row(?) who I took a photo for under the posts after the game. I then enjoyed a great night out around the town with friendly banter and big grins from both sides, there was a feeling of a common bond, this can't be lost to the tribalism of football or the current tide of devolution in politics. 5 Nations or 6 Nations or umpteen Nations doesn't matter the brotherhood of rugby must survive. It shouldn't change the fact I want England to win every time they play and if they don't why should I hate the team who beat them and their supporters? Can we have a respectful silence for national Anthems and for goal kickers too? Please!
Matt
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Hi John,
Rob from BBC Sport in London here.
As I said in my bio on the blog, one of my fondest rugby memories is the party in the Twickenham pubs after the 1999 World Cup semi-final between France and New Zealand.
For those who don't know, France looked down and out before staging a remarkable comeback. And the "craic that night was something else.
There were little pockets of Frenchmen in ecstacy, belting out rounds of the Marseillaise every five minutes; there were Kiwis downing their sorrows but happy to admit it had been a spectacular game; and there was a cocktail of British and Irish just revelling in the atmosphere.
Soon, we were drinking as one homogenous mass and all singing the Marseillaise together in a celebration of rugby.
Work next day was a struggle though.
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Totally agree with all said, the game is so more important than any ridiculous fans. Rugby fans from all over the world are of the same ilk, all take a drink and all have had some form of education. Some fotball followers tend to have skipped school and were educated on the street therefore they have street manners and sensibilities. This was never more apparent than when I went to watch England V Canada during Englands time at Wembley stadium. My self and a few buddies left Portsmouth at 0900 with a carrier bag of beer and by 1500 we were merry at least. At our seats trying to sober up we became aware of some people arguing over who was in the right seats. The occupiers were standard rugby fans and the challengers were football fans who saw England + wembley and booked two tickets. The football fans were Chavs ten years ahead of their time and to be honest needed a good kicking, myself and my friends decided silently that these chimps were not going to ruin this 60year old's day and provided these chimps some advice as to help their situation. A steward arrived and lo and behold the chimps could not read, they were at the wrong end and skulked off bemoaning yuppy rugby fans. This says it all for me Rugby is the greatest team game played by decent people, and supported by all sorts with one common feature...an education.
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Please don't let Rugby go down the same route as football, it would completely spoil the game. Crowd trouble is the last thing rugby wants.
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I disagree that young people have less respect for opposing fans. Im 18 and wheter Ireland play France, england, Italy or whoever there is always great banter between the fans. Im a munster fan and after the leicester game last week the munster fans were big enough to appreciate good rugby and great fans on behalf of leicester.
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Please don't let Rugby go down the same route as football, it would completely spoil the game. Crowd trouble is the last thing rugby wants.
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It appears to be the sign of the times - the game is growing in popularity and with that, it seems to be attracting a small number of undesirables. We've seen this in cricket in the past 10 years haven't we. I am a recent convert to rugby (from football), for this reason alone. I have enjoyed the hassle free afternoons watching top-flight sport in Bristol. I will say, that we shouldn't blame it all on football fans.... There was a chap (and his family) in his mid 50's stood next to me recently who was clearly trying to wind up the home crowd. He quietened down when Bristol scored a last minute drop goal! These bigger crowds are great.... but respect the spirit of the game.
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As a Welshmen I think there is antipathy towards English rugby for being "arrogant" (the Will Carling era) and the "Battle of Cardiff" when they came to punch the Welsh off the pitch. I love England and English club rugby but the national team has started attracting some football-fan types.
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I totally agree that Rugby should continue being the greatest spectator sport, and team sport this world has ever known. But I have seen a HUGE amount of issues with individuals from certain countries feeling they can step over the line of ribbing and straight into insults. I lived as an expatriate for a while and mixed freely with all nationalities within the community. But when Football/Rugby was on TV the friendly jibes died quickly. Now the football jibes were at times a two-way thing within the community but at Rugby it was the Football followers that kept throwing around insults. It is pathetic and an embarrassment to these Islands, as I'm not aware of other areas of the world that have similar issues. In conclusion we must keep the stadium mixed and enjoy each other’s company watching the best sport in the world. Good luck to all countries in the 6 Nations especially the boy's in White!
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Ulster supporters on the road, I am a keen Ulster supporter but am working overseas and haven't been to Ravenhill in a year or two, I'm disappointed by the stories in the press about the Toulouse incident and the one mentioned above, while agreeing that what TB decided to do was dispicable and no excuse should be acceptable, mother brother daughter or wife insults included, i am disappointed that the normal rubgy banter seems to have spiraled to rather alarming lows, TB & GT are known as firey at the best of times but what happened off the pitch reflects on supporters and players alike. I don't imagine that we are going to be in need of segregation anytime soon but rugby is probably generating a little more diverse support than in the past and there are probably a lot more kids attending games and it would be better if we as supporters showed generally a little more respect for the players and followers of a passionate, hard and great game.
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I love the sporting banter between our nations and am tolerant of those who dish out comical insults, so long as they are willing to tolerate a comeback.
However, I'd still say I'm Welsh before I'm British and consider myself a Celt before a Brit. This is how it has always been and always will be, it's just a question of how the next generation of supporters will take to this logic.
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I know many a Scot who would say "I like Englishmen one on one but not when they get together." and some English vice versa. I dont know where that sentiment comes from, as I often find groups of both that I would choose to socialize with. I think the Scottish English tension is a case of familiarity breeding contempt, and that gets voiced on occassions.
Perhaps Rugby is going some way toward football like prejudice, but I know that the vast majority of fans still just enjoy a good time with one another.
During the last CC match, I wound up across the aisle, quite by chance, from and English friend of mine totally decked out in his St. George's cross and face paint. Needless to say we bantered good naturedly for 80 mins, but at the end he wished me well and congratualted me for the win. We may have been rooting against one another's team, but we never rooted against one another.
Later on I sang late into the night with a group of Englishmen and can hardly remember a better time.
Is prejudice on the rise? Almost certainly, but a good time can still be had by all, I know it for true.
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As an Englishman living in Scotland, I appreciate how deep feelings of national pride can run, having been on the end of a fair few remarks over the last 9 years. Nearly all in jest, however, and I have no problem with that.
The thing that I love about rugby, as much as the game itself, is that the rampant and violent tribalism of football has not reached the stands.
Witness my experience at Murrayfield in 2003. I had obtained my tickets through the SRU but myself and my mate were there to support Wales (it's a family thing!). We were in a block of Scottish fans and yet we had a great time. The guy next to me raised a quizzical eyebrow at one point and enquired where I had got my ticket but the atmosphere was one of friendly rivalry.
The following year I was back, supporting Scotland against France.
What I never want to see is segregation of rugby crowds. The fact that you are cheek by jowl with the opposing supporters adds hugely to the overall fun and enjoyment. If this was to change, it would be a sorry time for a game that, even in the professional era, is still retaining the sportsmanship and rejecting the type of gamemanship and histrionics that leave me with little interest in football.
Long may rugby remain more a sport and less a business!
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Do you really think you have a monopoly on these attitudes?! Sorry to bring you out of ur shell, but this happens worldwide (BUT not assault on a fan!!) I've been to MANY matches,here in Aust. and overseas and NEVER,ever had bad experience. ?Ever tried to enter a S.African or N.Zealand or Twickenham (with 'my flag') unscathed..? BUT always in jovial banter and bit of sledging, NEVER abusive. The same happens after a match -much hand-shaking, or banter, win or lose- and drinks together afterwards. Brennan has now set a precedent for Rugby games (one will be terrified that the pat-on-the-back may well be a PUNCH!!) I've not ever known a player to 'warm up' DELIBERATELY in front of oppositions fans/supporters. I feel he's at end of career,didn't care, and should leave in the disgrace he deserves.
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French, Scots, Welsh and Irish have always had good reason to hate the English and have chosen Rugby as a means to get their own back.
Unfortunately from 2000-2003 the English stopped playing the game and started winning.
Good riddance to Clive Woodward.
Now things are back to normal we can all have fun and drink in the bar afterwards.
Long may it continue.
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The example used of the Ulster fans taking the mickey is ironic. Ulster fans support Ireland, and go to every home match to support 'their' team in Dublin and stand respectfully for the (Southern) Irish national anthem under a Southern Irish flag. They have done since partition. The reason for the Southern anthem being played according to the IRFU is to show respect for the 'host' nation. Now, in September Ireland will for the first time in decades play at ravenhill in Belfast. The decision has been taken by the IRFU not to have any national anthem for that one.I think the writer should remember this when he decides to highlight Ulster fans (what a surprise)for lack of tolerance. Perhaps the writer would like to suggest the IRFU showing a bit of respect for their British supporters up North?
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I think it is indicative of modern life, media, press, things sensationlised beyond belief, etc. Look at BBC Radio 5 Live which tries hard to whip everyone up into a frenzy on any issue.
That Said, i do think the Scots have something to answer here. For years, a good many Scots have been English bashing and slagging to anyone and everyone who would listen. The English are just a little tired of being portrayed like this and sadly are 'fighting' back with our own idiotic crap now. A group of pals and I (English and Welsh) went to Murryfield last Six Nations to see England lose to a very good Scottish team full of the best passion etc. Sadly, we all came away thinking the banter towards the English was with real venom and pretty unpleasant. And we'll hairy arsed late 30 somethings i.e not easily offended.
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Wish I could say this was a new phenomenon in rugby but there's always been a small pocket behaving like idiots and fighting or goading, especially when the beer has been flowing for a while, just very rarely in the grounds themselves.
The English rugby team have regularly been given a shameful "welcome" in Wales with the team bus being surrounded by local fans calling them out for a fight and such like. I doubt it's isolated to the English team or to Wales, although I heard it was worse there than anywhere else - the irritation and anger the Welsh have towards the English is up there with the best of them! And you know, so what? Sticks and stones and all that.
Trouble in the crowds is still rare, rugby matches are still very welcoming and great spirited events and the teams knock each other around on the pitch then drink together after. It's the bloomin' trains, roads and car parks that depress me!
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I agree: there is a creeping increase in the degree of nastiness, and there does seem to be a general desire to 'hate the English'. Doesn't bother me, and maybe I say that because the most vocal Scots/Welsh/Irish/SH fans are the nutters who we hear most from, as opposed to the silent/decent majority - but it's definitely there for this fan.
Witness lines like "As a Welshmen I think there is antipathy towards English rugby for being "arrogant" (the Will Carling era) and the "Battle of Cardiff" when they came to punch the Welsh off the pitch." Well I grew up in the 70s when Welsh rugby was totally dominant, horribly aggressive - and unbelievably arrogant... So it's a little difficult to have those points made against the English by a Welsh fan...
Personal absolute hate? Nothing to do with nationalities, but the booing during a place kick. Such so-called 'fans' have the sporting instincts of a mass murderer, and should be banned for life - that'll sort 'em.
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Two years ago I was in Wellington (racing round the world with the Global Challenge). My crew went to the international sevens tournament. The Kiwi hosts were delightfully non PC, there was gallons of drink about, the stadium was full and everyone had a great time without any problem. I was priviledged to have Sean Fitzpatrick help with our team builing preparation. He explained that losing wasn't an option but there was never any question of having respect for the opposition and being fair, if a bit hard, towards them! The co-operation and friendship between rugby players, fans, supporters and wives who put up with us even if they don't want to join in, should all resist any attempt to allow the 'soccer culture' to encroach on our sport at any level.
Long may the supporters be mixed up in any stadium without a problem and long may we all be prepared to appreciate good rugby, even if the team we support isn't providing it!
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I'm British, born in England, Mothers father was a 6"4,24 stone Scottish RSM in the Royal Artillery, my late fathers grandfather was an Irish prize fighter, many of my years were spent in the humbling presence of the Black Mountains in Wales and how my blood stirs when the chosen from all home nations sound the Lion's Roar and tears of pride always well in the eye when you see English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh fans singing flower of Scotland or some such national theme. This is something that only would ever happen in the beautiful game of Rubgy. Let us please, never allow this to become just a memory of how it used to be!
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I agree. Rugby, the game was always the game of the intelligent parts of society and is now becoming segregated like football.
It will be a sad day when crowd disturbances overshadow a good game of the beautiful art of team war.
The whole point of the game, ("...for thugs played by gentlemen...") is that the argument takes place on the field, nowhere else.
The media have the best outlet for promoting fan harmony. The pre-match TV build up is the best opportunity to show positive images and reject negative ones.
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I am in total agreement with all that the original author stated. My memories are identical. As a student in the 50's, I met a Welsh man on Princes Street in Edinburgh and he was still covered in a fine layer of coal. His mates had dragged him on to the bus at the coal face because they had an empty seat. They had several kegs of beer on the bus and they had stopped at a pub in the scottish borders for lunch. They were feeling no pain. My father once said to me that rugby was a hooligans game played by gentlemen while soccer was a gentlemen's game played by hooligans
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In regard to Simon Glass comments (no 8/9):- Firstly Andy Murrays comments were said in jest and the Press blew them out of proportion.
2. The reason that Scots dont wont you to win is not because of your fans, its because when you do win smething major we never hear the end of it. Your commentators constantly go on about it even when england are not playing (take germany V ecuador in the football world cup, where 1966 was constantly bleated about). In rugby hey go on about how england are the worlds best when in truth they did not deserve to win it. (not digging just pointing out) The majority of Scots want England to do well.
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One of the reasons why there may have been an increase in nationalism surrounding the 6N maybe something to do with devolution.It may also be because England had a decade or so of dominance culminating in winning the world cup. Previously England had got their comeuppance on a far more regular basis and there is is now a revelling in our demise-for the moment!
As for Ulster (vis a vis the leading article of the blog and Trevor Brennan) I don't know this but it sounds like an echo of the political atmosphere in Ulster. Isn't that a little part or Ireland? Oops!
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I fly 5000 miles every year to watch a game at Murrayfield, and don't see any noticeable change in attitude.
Last year went to the Calcutta Cup, and the English lads in the bar afterwards, feeling the need for a sing song, noticeably avoided any Rugby songs, but other than that, the "craic" was as normal.
One thing I would echo though is that I'd love to see more respect for national anthems (I hate to hear the small number of people at Murrayfield whistling during God Save The Queen... plain disrepectful of the other team's anthem!), and I really can't stand people being anything other than silent when anyone kicks for goal. Having respect for others in a sporting competition isn't old fashioned, good manners don't go out of style.
Coming over for the Irish game, and, as always, greatly looking forward to it... I just wish we Scots had anything remotely as rousing as "Molly Malone" to sing... singing that in amongst a crowd of Irish at Landsdowne Road is (was, now that ground is gone) one of those unique experience that the lack of segregation in Rugby crows brings.
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I totally agree with you!!
I am a Welshman, and the problem is the english. There has always been good old banter, and enjoyable either way... The problem is narrow headed people & old head pundits like Dewi Morris. People watch tv and see him failing to admit defeat...I thought England winning the world cup was a good thing. It was great for the Northern hemosphere won, but since then..the 'england pig headedness' came through and now you have a 'Football' atmosphere in the rugby grounds. Its not so much us, the Home Celtic Nations or the french. If they didnt have or use the smug attitude they always do when they win, there wouldnt be a problem. And now they are losing, there is always the excuse, 'Oh...we didnt do this or that'. Just admit that your not good enough...other teams Such as Wales, Ireland are better or played better than you on the day. (GOOG SPORTMANSHIP).
Im starting to believe that in the end..History is everything and we are CELTS fighting the Anglo-Saxons, but on a different battlefield. I dont want the rugby atmosphere to change, but English attitude always comes through in the end. So, its Celts against our common enemy, and maybe after we beat them like the good old days..they might wind their necks in and be silent!!
Regards.
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So "the French, Scots, Welsh and Irish have always had good reason to hate the English and have chosen Rugby as a means to get their own back".This one comment encapsulates everything that is so sad about what is happening in Rugby Football. Over the last few years it has become increasingly obvious to me that a sizeable majority of Scottish supporters in particular show an open hatred (not just dislike) for everything English. In daring to win the Rugby World Cup, we "arrogant" English have aggravated things even further. Who can blame England supporters for eventually getting tired of this racist vitriol and fighting back. I look forward to Twickenham with bated breath!
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Agree wholeheartedly John Beattie.
From a "south of the border" point of view I'd say that the overt nationalism (Scots and Welsh) often shown in media news clips AND in 606 rugby forum does little to endear us to our Celtic neighbours.
I'll quote one Scot fan who said that Jonny Wilkinson's return to the England side was eagerly welcomed as "our lads will be queueing to be the one who killed Jonny Wilkinson".
Another saying that he was sure Scots fans were eagerly anticipating next week's Twickenham match against "the numpties in white shirts".
Despite imbecilic comments like that though - I still believe our much loved sport is in the main so decently supported as to be almost unreal in todays ill-disciplined world.
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Not cloud cuckooland, I hope. As a then Australian resident Englishman, amongst my many magnificent memories of RWC 2003 was the Quarter Final in Brisbane. The crowds were funnelled into the stadium down Caxton Street, which is lined by two-storied pubs and restaurants. The atmosphere pre-game was electric, with Welsh in the top story exchanging chants with the English in the street and lower story - Australian friends of mine were stunned by the vloume and the gladatorial nature of it. Not being used to it, they thought trouble in the air. Inside, Shane Williams scored to put Wales infront - a try so breathtaking, all the English were on their feet. Outside that night, and next morning, the air was full of English "bad luck, bloody close" and Welsh "good luck for the semi" to us. Back in Sydney for the semi and the final, Welsh, Irish and French (in the final) were (mainly) actually supporting England or at least neutral - unprecedented and heartwarming.
Sad to say that the many English who supported Scotland vocally against Australia the night before our quarter with England heard not one word of support in return and nothing other desperation to see England lose the final - even sadder, the Scots were far more bitter than the Australians when we won.
So not cloud cuckooland, so long as the Scots come to the party. There is no anti-Scotish feeling in England - there is plenty of anti-anti-English feeling.
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I agree with a lot of what it said here, but I must say that I dont agree with what was said about Ulster in the peice.
Yes they chanted that we were only a wee peice of England, but it was sung with humour.... as a Scots man i would like to think that we can work out what is humour and what is offencive. I have to sympathise further with those Ulster supporters caught up in the dark events in Tolouse. the traveling support that comes over with Ulster is in my opinion are up there with the much talked about muster supporters.
overall i still feel that the majority of people are welcomign to opposition supporters and long may it continue
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I am a Scot living in Sweden. I think there is simpley something special about beating England (is really is the game of the Six Nations for me). I think this also is true for the other home nations too. I also have English friends and there is always banter but always in a friendly context. The great thing about rugby is that is doesn't have the football mentality. I also think that because many of the fans play in a rugby club they all have respect for what these guys give on the field English or Scottish. This year I'll be sampling the English hospitality and the heart IS beating faster already!!
Cheers
Steve
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Well, that was almost verging on a political statement there! Devolution probably has increased an anti-English feeling, but it's hardly a huge problem. I have an English accent, because I'm a Scot who was born in Luton and lived there for 12 years. Since I moved back to Scotland 2 years ago I've never had any problem with it, in fact I am truely grateful for the acceptance I have received since moving back here. I don't think there is a huge problem. I'll be going to the Scotland home games and I'll have a great time with the Welsh, Irish and Italians and won't think twice and neither will they! I don't know what it was like back in your day, but hey, I know how to enjoy mine! England fans? Well, I think they sometimes bring it on themselves. Most of my friends support England, and the stuff they come out with sometimes is quite frankly painful to listen to. It's an arrogance that any nation would pick up after winning the World-Cup, even Scotland would! I think Scottish and English rivalry is a thing of beauty. It has life, it breaths. It gives Scotland a reason to compete and England a reason to moan. Let's not make a big deal of the small-minded people who make more of it than there is. I should point out that I'm a member of the SNP, I just don't see a huge problem with the rivalry. Scotland should be proud of the friendship we have with England, and vice versa. There shouldn't be anymore made of it than that, otherwise the small minded folk would have won!
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Going to games in the past was just like in the article. We would go in a group of university friends and have a great day out. I have particularly fond memories of French fans serenading our girls. And all the fans had fun together. I don't get the chance to go to games these days - just watch them on TV, despite the commentaries. I do hope the atmosphere hasn't changed. Rugby internationals and their fans were one of the better parts of life. Win or lose, it was just great fun.
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Over many years of travelling to all the various countries to watch and play this wonderful game (sadly not Italy YET, but soon) I have had the pleasure to share hip flasks, bar bills and taxis with the locals, and long may it continue. England, it grieves me to say, are guilty of triumphalism on too many occasions, as has already been mentioned previously, so media and politicians can get column inches filled. On Saturday next in the Cabbage Patch early doors, will be breached, and it will start all over again .Thank heavens.
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There is no place for the small minded bigots in any rugby crowd, Brilliant atmospheres, passion for your Country, respect for all fans, celebrate the occassion (mine's a Guiness)
Bring on the six nations and c'mon Wales
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John
You have lost the plot totally. This was obviously a humorous wind up. Would it not be nice if the Glasgow spectators (i won't call them supporters) chanted something... anything? You need to get a handle on Ulster humour. Yes it is annoying when the away support embarrass the home spectators with their fervour.We need more noise and atmosphere not less.By the way i am an Ulsterman BUT involved in scottish rugby since 1975.
Good luck to John junior ... wonderful talent.. it's in the genes!
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I hope this blog gets the publicitiy it deserves and the mindless few withdraw form the edge of stupidity. I go to Scotland from Cardif every 2 years and have a FANTASTIC time. Without any adversary or 'Old Foe' there would be no point in competition of any sort. It's traditional for the Celtic Nations to 'hate' the English but in the pubs etc after the banter belies that facade. Though born In Cardiff I claim Irish, Scottish and Italian ancestry and will wear the shirt of the day depending on the game - it's just a wind up. I'm up in Scotland in a few weeks with my NZ 2007 RWC Champions shirt sat next to a mate in a Red Dragon suit. Just sit back and enjoy the occasion for what it is - fun!
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As a football fan , I am not surprised at this development. If you continue to
take pride in your drinking, with bars
in stadia being open during matches, then you will get trouble. Players have also become motor-mouths, with back pages in the week preceding matches containing silly and puerile jibes.
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Do we need nationalistic rivalry?
Of course we do. Its great fun, always has been, The above article brought back, my own childhood.
Aside from the inevitable professional nature, of the modern game, ie. money, I believe the culture of Man of the Match, is alien to the traditional ethos, of a team sport and detrimental as an example to youth, as such.
The other point I would like to make is, that we need not, go the road of elitism and regard our particular sport as superior. Thats the problem with religon isn't it ?
Anyway , great article and contributions, long may this rivalry continue with respect.
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I so aree with the comments about the over reaction of England when the slightest hint of success seems possible.
I am English and support all things good in sport....but the open topped bus around london with a very lucky England team made me very slghtly sick after the asshes win(got their own back with interest)
We won the world cup in rugger......to many big heads.no follow up plan....where are we now no-where
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An excellent blog, full of intelligent comment - what a change from the badly spelt, abusive, profane stuff that we see elsewhere. In my younger, fitter days I used to referee football and rugby - guess which I preferred to do? The one where the players called you 'sir' and respectfully asked for clarification of a decision, not the one where foul-and-abusive was the norm, and the players would often question your eyesight, ancestry and parentage. I lived in Leicester for nearly 30 years, and still support the Tigers, but whenever I attended a match at Welford Road, the only police presence needed to control 16,000 fans were half-a-dozen officers at most, and perhaps a dog: segregation of spectators was unheard of. For Leicester City home games, there would be hundreds of cops on duty, trying to keep the warring factions apart. 'Respect' is a forgotten word in our 21st century society - the only other place I see it these days, apart from in rugby union, is in the NFL in the USA - the Bears and Colts fans at the SuperBowl remind me very much of the Tigers and Bath fans at Welford Road.
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I'm a Scot living in Wales. I have been to many a Wales vs Scotland match in Cardiff and all I can say is that the Welsh fans have always been very friendly and although they gave the usual banter there has always been a amazing friendly atmosphere. As for the football style fans that are going to rugby games I think there is no room for them in rugby and they're insults!
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I'm a 19 year old Welshman, and i admit i would be prefer any team to win the 6 nations as long as it's not england. But it's because of the hype and arrogance of the team and media rather than actual negative feelings towards english people.. Also, i saw Wales play against England in Cardiff in both football and rugby and it was fascinating to see and experience the difference in atmospheres.
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Great article. One of the things that has always appealed to me about rugby is how enlightened the fans are in general. Just look at the BBC blogs and in general they are informed and relatively unbiased.
However, I have been making the point for some time now that one of the things I dislike about the small minded Scots, Welsh and Irish football fans that used sport to further their anti English, bigotry/jealousy/inferiority complex, or what ever it is that leads them to support "any team that plays against England", is that some point in the future certain sections of the English will reciprocate. As an Englishman I desperately didn't want to see people from my country demonstrate such a small minded attitude. But I am afraid, like Simon, I think the chickens have come home to roost and we are seeing it in certain sections of society but lets hope the "enlightened" rugby fraternity don't go down that route.
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Rugby is a sport where people come together, it's ridiculous that since the game has turned professional, you get the few idiots in that think rugby fans should be like football fans. This was clear to see at twickenham for the 1st england/south africa test where a south african fan was getting insulted by a group of english fans. I personally think it's all these rugby converts after the '03 world cup win. The true rugby fans love the camaradrie with the opposition supporters.
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I have a season ticket for Reading and London Irish so I love football and rugby. Football is the way it is and I still love going to the games but I watch rugby not only for the game but so I can have a laugh with opposition fans and enjoy a bit of banter without the need for insulting one another, its one of the things that makes the game special. I have been to twickenham and everyone enjoys each other's company and congratulates the winner at the end and has a few beers together. If rugby crowds get like football crowds, part of what makes the game great will have died.
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I'm a Welshman living down the road from Twickenham in Richmond.
I've had a few run ins with English fans who have made some quite tasteful remarks when I've been out supporting Welsh teams and Wales.
On the other hand I've been in Cardiff and I've seen Welsh fans having a go at English fans.
What I'm saying is, is that there are berks on both sides. I'm sure this has sadly always been the case.
Let's ignore these clowns and celebrate what's the best rugby tournament in the world. And I include the World Cup in that.
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I'm a German Rugby fan and player from Karlsruhe. During the football WC after the defeat to Italy in the semi finals I saw German football fans heavily insulting two Italian girls. While you can tell by the amount of policemen at the train station and in the city, that Karlsruher Sport Club is obviously playing a homematch, the greatest astonishment was shown by some of my football enjoying friends, when I showed a Rugby game to them. They could hardly believe, that there were no separated fan blocks and the spectators remained respectfully silent, when the opposing side performed a kick to the posts. This made me proud of playing a sport widely unnoticed here in Germany. Please be aware that one single foul egg can ruin the whole cake, as a German proverb states. I disagree to Mr. Keates' "The media have the best outlet for promoting fan harmony. The pre-match TV build up is the best opportunity to show positive images and reject negative ones." You just can't cover misbehaviour by not showing it. You have to deal accordingly with it, maybe by telling that bad manners causes damage not only to the sports but to the ostensibly supported nation too. As great Rugby nations, being Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish, you have to give a sort of example to the world. Nationalism never turned out to be useful for peoples. My grandfather (born in 1902) really believed the French being our eternal enemy by heritage (Erbfeind), because he learned such crap in school. It is sad to see, that a century has passed since and yet we hadn't become world citizens.
P.S. Allez les Bleus! ;-)
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I watched Stade Francais vs Biarritz when they had a 80,000 strong crowd record at Stade de France. They made a big show of it: singers, fireworks, jugglers, pom-pom girls, etc. Not everyone's taste but fair enough.
I ended up sitting just below a huge crowd of BO supporters with the flag and music. It was great until some bunch of teenageers started to chant for Paris and be rude to the Biarritz fans. They sounded more like PSG fans than SF fans.. The atmosphere changed quickly..
I guess that's the ransom for success. Big show, pom-pom girls, but bad behaviour as well.
So I call upon every rugby fan to show the right example and 'police' his/her area in the stands to make sure everyone behaves and enjoys the game as it should to be enjoyed..
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100% in agreement with the virtualy common view. I would also say that I have never (rarely) seen the ugly side of it amongst supporters. There will always be idiots but if the rest of us behave normally, we can see them off! The Six Nations is a fantastic tournament that allows us all to indulge in a degree (maybe a high degree) of passionate/biased/one-eyed support for one team or another. That should be the end of it. Those of us who have actually played the game will remember many occasions where the same passion, displayed on the pitch, may often have resulted in "a bit of physical over-exertion", but, in my recollection, always followed by the friendly handshake, hug and shared round of beer. That, amateur or professional, sixth XV or Six Nations, remains the essence of the world's greatest team game and specator sport. Lose that - on the field, in the stands, on the terraces (alas - no more), in the pub or club - and we've lost it all. Think of Munster supporters at Thomond Park, last weekend, rising to salute Leicester, defeating their local heroes and thus ending the proudest record in European Rugby. So celebrate the Six Nations, celebrate Rugby, enjoy it, sing if you win and even louder if you lose - but, above all Love Rugby!!
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I don't think this is anything new, I can remember watching Scotland v England in Glasgow pubs ten years ago and being abused to the point of hatred by a good few Scottish idiots.
Sport is often jumped upon as the last expression of nationalism and especially in the case of England v Scotland in any sport, is used to articulate old grievances.
I think it is true that the English care less about the Scots than the Scots do about the English, and that's reflected in a far few comments here. Let's not dress it up, what goes on at Scotland v England games in the name of banter is often pure racism.
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Having grown up in Ulster and studied in Scotland I think that Mr Beattie is being a wee bit precious re his comments on Ulster supporters. Anyone who has been to Ravenhill on a Friday night will appreciate the 'banter'and the spirit in which it is intended. I am surprised Mr Beattie could make out the words the Ulster fans were singing as their tongues would have been jammed in their cheeks!
Rugby is the most social game in the world and will always remain so. Let's not bring sensitive PC discussion to the table. Let the banter and the 'craic' continue!
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I like many of the others who have commented here would like to think that the comrade ship of rugby players/fans the world over would outweigh the rivalry. yes there is banter but we can only hope that this never goes the same way as that round ball game and all that goes with it!
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I am an Australian living in Sydney and I am worried about our great game. I am a confirmed rugby tragic. In my day I have played at a reasonably high level, represented my state at junior level, played in different countries on 4 continents ( have toothbrush will travel) coached seniors and juniors and won some grand finals and I can honestly say that if more people in the world played rugby there would be less strife and more good will. It is the most unigue and harmonious sport on the planet.
I have been to 4 of the five world cups and I can still dine out on the stories. Big boofy blokes, talking to big boofy blokes about big boofy bloke things. Ah! What larks!Discussing the Intricacies of this play or that move or so and so's outrageous side step etc. Important things.
No matter what country / city you go to , as soon as you hook up with the rugby crowd you run into all the personalities from home. There is always a Jono, a smithy, a jacko or what ever. A couple of drinks and its like you never left home, where ever that is.
Then of couse there is all the girls that get attracted to these knock about rugby buggers... ahh! memories, enough to warm the cockles of an old mans heart.
Rugby people are the best people on the planet. Lets keep it that way. We should all be custodians of the game.
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A small point, but one I hope that is well made.
I too was at the Glasgow V Ulster match, and as I heard it (and I was beside the bulk of Ulster supporters) the chant was 'You're just a suburb of Edinburgh'.
Have we all had sense of humour by-passes?
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I think there has always been a great bit of banter between all the nations involved, that is what makes this the great tournament that it is.
Hope the banter stays as banter.
Would jsut like to comment on Ed's post. I know many Ulster fans that do go to Ireland games, but I know just as many Ulster fans who consider Ulster as their home nation& don't bother with Ireland. As for having a dig at the IRFU, Amhran na bhFiann is the Irish National anthem& by right should be played at all whole games just as any other nation would.
If your going to have a dig at the IRFU maybe you should have a close look at the reasons why fans such as myself stay away from Ravenhill. The fact that the team is hailed as a N.Ireland team& not a 9 county Irish province& the carrying by many fans at the games of the "Northern Ireland Flag" a widely recognised loyalist symbol.
The majority of Ulster Fans behave excellently& show how rugby fans should behave. As for considering Scotland being a small part of England... Ironic?
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My goodness, this is a thread that could run and run John.....
Just a quick point to poster #9 about his comment on Andy Murray. He was asked about why he made such an inflammatory remark. He explained that a reporter at a press conference made a joke about wheter he would be supporting Scotland in the World Cup last summer? He also criticised Murray's tennis at Wimbledon which does seem a bit harsh. Anyway, Andy Murray replied 'I will support anyone against England' as a rebuke of this guy. Naive yes. Nationalistic hardly.
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It has been 35 years since I have been to Cardiff to watch an international. So it is with huge excitement that I find myself knowing I'll be at the Wales v England game on March 17.
Living in Canada since 1974, I do get down to the local pub on game day (early morning) and share "beers and banter" with opposing fans, mostly Irish, Scots, English and Welsh expats who all still have that sense of national pride when their team plays. Never have I experienced anything close to abusive, just the same sorts of remarks I gave out (and took) 35 years ago.
I'm expecting the same come March 17 or am I living in cloud cuckoo land?
I hope not!!!!!
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I'm an Englishman who's lived in Wales for 27 years.When England play any other team the Welsh will cheer for the other side whoever they are.I believe the Scots and Irish do too.Now before all the replies testify that's it's so much banter and good natured-don't believe it for one minute.During the last world cup one of my patients announced that Australia had just scored against England which was then greeted with loud cheers!
My Pharmacy is in the Welsh valleys.
There is still a great and pernicious dislike for the English here in spite of the fact that without English money and taxes Wales would have an economy similar to Latvia.Just jesting Dai!
Bora Da.
FMJ
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I'm from Northumberland and when Scotland, Ireland or Wales were playing I gave them my backing without really thinking about it. Then I went to Uni in Scotland for four years and was shocked at the level of hatred of the English. In particular the Irish who made up a large part of the uni. Having said that I went to last years game at Murrayfield wearing an England top and the only abuse I suffered was light hearted. I still want Scotland to do well but the Irish are another matter!! I also refuse to shove my chariots where they tell me to!! Its all fun and games and would hate it if crowds were seperated like football.
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rugby fans aren't aggresive, hell i'm a new zealander and i often go to games being played at Twickenham and sit next to England supporters. Rugby is not football. Rugby is a yobs games played by gentleman whereas football is a gentlemans games played by yobs and we shouldn't be assuming that the trend of football will reach over in rugby. Rivalary between nations is always good as it sets the match up better, Scotland vs England in particular. The atmosphere in the stadium was amasing and then when scotland won, it just was so different to what would happen in football matches
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I totally agree, the great thing about rugby, and a point I have proved to many of my footie friends is that you can go to a rugger match have a few beers with the oppos have plenty of banter without getting nasty
lets keep out the idiots and keep rugby a supporters games
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I find the attitude of many on this blog ever so slightly patronising. British politics has changed significantly in the last number of years with all the home nations having some form of political autonomy which in turn breeds nationalism to varying degrees. This can be seen in the stands of many sporting arenas. Granted, rugby has this to a lesser degree but I do think this will change in time. Not all football fans are nationalistic uneducated thugs as they are perceived to be by many posters. PS Remember Thatcher was hysterically anti Scottish and therefore created a lot of the resentment felt by Scots towards England.
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I like most of the people making comments on here hope that rugby supports doesn't descend into the depths that football did.
I am English through and through and get ribbed by the celt friends who have this "anyone but England attitude."
They can never answer why they don't want England to win against any opposition and I will often remind them that the celtic and English players stand shoulder to shoulder and spill blood and sweat for eachother when they play for the Lions against the southern hemisphere.
Maybe the media does stir things up....I'm fed up with watching Geoff Hurst's goal. But I do think too many people live in the past.
Did you know that most of the Britsh army in Culloden were Scottish. I didn't and don't care because it was centuries ago.
If someone tells me they are a rugby man that's good enough for me and tells me volumes about them.
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I too have a sense of excitement on a 6 Nations Day. It started as a kid in the 1970s being taken by my Dad to The Arms Park to watch those mighty Welsh teams. Sitting on a wall at the back of the East Terrace.
A fond memory is of a huge Scotsman very much the worse for wear draping himself around a bemused Policeman and saying "Och it doesn't matter that we lost. We're all Celts as long as we beat the English."
It was funny and was not meant with any hatred towards English people. Just the longstanding friendly antipathy the Celts have towards the English.
Sadly I think what little nastiness there is now comes from people who do not follow the game week in week out but who travel (maybe corporately?) to away games and don't understand the differences between some good hearted banter and nastiness / hatred. And that covers all the home nations I feel.
Finally for what it is worth when Wales beat England on that glorious day two years ago not one Englishman congratulated me or my son (thought both Flag carrying Welshmen). Unlike the Irish a few weeks later.
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I'm Welsh and I went to university in England (Birmingham). When I was there in the 80s there was a mixture of nationalities in the rugby club, mostly English and Welsh but with a few Scots and Irish thrown in. There was never any animosity during the five nations. In fact, groups of us would trek to Twickenham every other year to watch Eng v Wales and arrange to 'meet under the posts' The losers (mostly England in those days :) ) would be sore, but never angry. It used to amaze football playing friends of mine that the Welsh and English fans would not only travel to the game together but mix in the crowd. Having been to Cardiff only a few times recently then I'm pretty sure it's exactly the same now.
As to the Welsh/Scots hating the English. As I said I'm Welsh but I live in England, my wife and kids are English and I don't hate the English. Only in Rugby will I cheer anybody but the English, although even then I did support them in the World Cup. Football and Cricket I'm definitely an English fan. Why? Well there are several reasons.
One is historical, in the part of Wales I'm from, the South East corner, it was English owners that originally ran the mines and iron works. Those owners outlawed the speaking of Welsh (which is why so many people from that are do not speak Welsh today) and were generally bastards!
Another reason is the press. The Welsh perceive the press to be completely biased towards the English team, even in Wales the press carries more England stories than Wales stories and I've often wondered why the BBC hasn't renamed itself to the EBC, people in the north think the BBC is London centric, think of the Welsh, to us it's all about England. Try this as a test, next week during the build up to the six nations, listen to which country gets most coverage on Radio5 and which country gets mentioned first and then wonder why the Scots/Welsh/English get so annoyed. Another example, last night there was coverage of the English Premiership on the main BBC news, but no coverage of the Magner's league. Why? It's the BBC, the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, the last time I looked, Scotland, Wales and Ireland were in the Magner's league, only English teams in the Premiership.
The press coverage, leads to another reason why people in Wales cheer against England, they consider the English arrogant, which I believe mostly comes back to the press coverage. Although English people have to ask themselves how many times they say England when they really should say Britain. My wife does it and she's married to a Welshman. My kids do it and they're half Welsh.
Is it no wonder we get so bloody annoyed :)
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As a Scot and somewhat overly patriotic who lived in England many years I find this sad. Many times I have been the only Scot in the pub watching games and had a great time. Sometimes to strangers amazement I could be seen cheering England or any other on as they played well.
Hopefully the few who think it is good to insult others will disappear if the true supporters drown them out.
Funnily enough only came across this here in Norway first year I moved here. But it was a skinhead so did't pay much attention and wasn't about to lose a 7 quid beer!!!!
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As a Scot and somewhat overly patriotic who lived in England many years I find this sad. Many times I have been the only Scot in the pub watching games and had a great time. Sometimes to strangers amazement I could be seen cheering England or any other on as they played well.
Hopefully the few who think it is good to insult others will disappear if the true supporters drown them out.
Funnily enough only came across this here in Norway first year I moved here. But it was a skinhead so didn't pay much attention and wasn't about to lose a 7 quid beer!!!! on a numpty
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Mr Beattie
The point you make about arbitrary borders from along time ago is a good one and even more so when considering any ethnicity arguments. Afterall we are just humans moving around the face of the planet
So whilst we do live in social communities any rivalries we have should just be friendly one - those that rugby has exemplified for so long.
I hold the communities I belong close to my heart and have rivalries with others but I never boo or jeer them. Indeed when looking at a wider picture I may even support the other - like the rival town in my county I'll support against teams from outside my county. With neutral teams I'll resort to a wonderfully British cultural 'support the underdog'!
As such in rugby - personally sticking to a very strong 'wandering around the planet' philosophy - I support any team from the British archipelago. I may cheer louder against France but not against France and sometimes I may even cheer for them.
This should remain the spirit for rugby and be the spirit for all sport and relations even without my geographical identity.
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I fully agree, but what worries me even more than rugby, and sport in general, is that this dislike is now spilling over into all areas of life.
If nationalism eventually leads to independence for each of the home nations, I do not see why this should be accompanied by antagonism and contempt. The Scots, Welsh and English share a small island. We are compelled by common sense to get on.
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I agree absolutely with the comments posted. My memories of doing the rounds of the rugby stadia during the 80's and 90's were of conviviality and commonality, celebrating the great matches, commiserating with strangers over a pint or a hip flask or a leather wine jug with no antipathy at all.
Surely,if it is going wrong now, it is when we focus on differences, rather than similarities, when we become petty and parochial instead of proud that we all share this great tradition of rugby. I am English but was genuinely delighted to see the wonderful rugby on display in recent years by the Irish, the fabulous inter-play of the Welsh backs a couple of years ago and the spirit of the Scots last season.This,in some way, compensates me for the mess the English are in but to a certain extent that is what the 6 nations is or should be about. If it all goes horribly wrong for our side, we can at least marvel at the spectacle some of the other sides are putting on and celebrate the greater good.
Here's to a wonderful 6 nations, on and off the pitch!
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Your example cites the bad behaviour of Ulster fans but I really think your bad luck here was to come across the team with the most ill behaved fans in the Magners league. They seem to pride themselves on acting like football fans - abusive songs, cheering "eeyor" when kicks are missed, screaming at officials, shouting at other fans. I too have enjoyed rugby for many years, particularly the ability to go out on match day with zero fear of a fight. But Ulster fans are a different breed and they are poisoning the game. Someone needs to get a grip on this before we end up like football.
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One thing that always really annoys me about the 6 nations is when England play away at Murrayfield and the pre-match nonsense that the Scots lay on with the whole Braveheart thing. If the English did something similar, there'd be uproar.
I've got to say that my attitude towards the Scots has changed enourmously as a result and the post about Andy Murray typifies that.
I think it's a shame if things are going this way but it's the same in many walks of life - the world's changing and not for the better.
As regards over-celebrating winning the World Cup (footy or rughby) or bringing it up too many times, it's difficult to know how the Celts would behave if they ever won it, because, errrrr, they never have. One suspects we'd see some very similar behaviour.
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Well said on post 55. I am Irish and would never support England in any sport in any competition and I reckon this is the same for the Welsh and Scots. It's just schadenfreude, cheeky satisfaction at seeing the old enemy fail. However, I feel it only pertains to the realm of sport. I have no problem with the English or any other people whatsoever. Having said this and although not condoning what Trevor Brennan did, my experience of some Ulster fans means the incident didn't surprise me. Let's not go down the road of football.
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I'm afraid Sean may have misread my contribution. It is worrying if he did not. I did not complain about the republic national anthem being played in Dublin. I accept the reason given by the IRFU that it shows respect for the host country. I would like that extended to Ravenhill and the opportunity for those from the other part of this island to have the same respect shown. I've always argued to cynical friends that the IRFU line shows that there is no disrespect or bias against unionists from the North shown and that if a game was played in Belfast the UK national anthem would be appropriate. The recent IRFU decision makes my argument redundant. However comments such as that from Sean add a political frisson to it, completely disrespectful of my own community. I have always thought that those who did not support the Ireland team from Ulster were politically oversensitive and were unneccesarily affected by politics in a sport which does not want it. The IRFU decision now gives the impression that politics has always been involved, and of a greener tinge than that worn by the rugby team. Would respect for the actual political position in Northern Ireland not be an example of the new understanding that is meant to permeate the island of Ireland in recent years? Or does Sean believe that we should ignore the facts and consider the anthem of the republic to be the anthem of the whole island? Would Sean come to Ravenhill and support an Ireland team which played with GSTQ as its anthem and with the union flag flying just as I and thousands of others from the unionist family have done with the republics anthem and flag for generations? And if he won't, does he think that neither national anthem , or flag, should be produced at any home Ireland match? I would be very interested to read Sean's views.
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I am a Scot living in England and I regularly travel (home & away)to watch both the Scotland and Rugby teams. The travelling Scottish football support is always good humoured and trouble free (less than 10 arrests in the last ten yrs at away games & 3 of these were in Cardiff)My dealings in general with English supporters of both sports has always been good on an individual basis, the problems always seem to arrise from the `tribal collective` on both sides. There are some who genuinely hate England and English and these people are not worth bothering with - England also have their equivelant. In general the Scots (Irish + Welsh) fans hate the media coverage of England & not the individuals i.e Britain = England & England = Britain etc. and the patronising attitude towards the Celtic countries (or regions as some would have it)` The National anthem is meant to be British but now viewed by most as English in regards to Football and Rugby. In the same vein going back 20 yrs most English football & rugby fans did not seem to realise that the COSG was their flag (look at Wembley 1966 - not one in sight)this has now changed although the Union flag is still hijacked as well. Most Celts can`t stand cricket yet it is treated in the media as a `British` sport and given saturation coverage nationally which is why most of us are having a sly little laugh to ourselves with the current ashes tour. I don`t believe things are as bad as some `posters` here make out and some of the complaints raised are just mirroring the lack of tolerence and different mind set of modern life. I do not see anarchy breaking out on the terraces and I am sure that apart form the few idiots (who nobody wants)we can continue to co-exist as sporting rivals with good humour and some occasional `sledging`.
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Thankfully there is still an obvious difference between rugby fans and football 'fans'. Just read these posts - in the main they are articulate, interesting and demonstrate not just undirected passion but a real love for the game of rugby. compared to the football posts its like reading Joyce or Hemingway. Particularly GK's post earlier on - I had to get a friend with a degree in socio-economic politics to explain what he was talking about.
I think that the people who really care about rugby can see the bigger picture, whereas the hooliganesque aggresive fans aren't fans at all they are just thugs who want an outlet for their feelings of inadequacy. In football the thugs seem to be winning - lets try and keep rugby for the rest of us real sports enthusiasts.
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I think that one reason for the aggresive nature of tadays banter at the games is the dilution of Rugby support at internationals by football fans!! May sound daft but I know quite a few die-hard football fans who have ended up with hospitality / corporate match day tickets at Murrayfield. The unfamiliar surroundings and rugby-esque craic goes out the window after a few beers and they revert to type.
Remember it only needs a few voices in every thousand to alter the overall impression!
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Rugby banter as it is is great.
I was recently at leicester Vs. Munster, the banter between fans was amazing. i was stood in a leicester shirt in a terrace full of munster fans, no indivdual abuse was given at all. The banter part is the best. we are no where near football nor are we on a slippery slope towards it. Its all a bit of light harted fun that 99% of the fans laught at!!
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I think in general John is right, and as a nation we are becoming more anti-English. I wouldn't agree that this sentiment has become any stronger at Murrayfield and the surrounding rugby banter. Yes, at the Calcutta Cup last year every big hit on a white shirt was met with a roar, but haven't they always been?
In the pub after the game my friends and I were talking to a group of England fans and it was all good natured banter, they felt we had the run of the ref's decisions (and I agreed), but they were happy to admit England didn't perform and our boys played out their skins. They marvelled at the atmosphere in all the pubs, and said that it was probably a good thing that Scotland won as they couldn't possibly have enjoyed their trip up here more.
John couldn't have said it better about this time of year, I love it too. Travelling along Princes St to work and seeing the flags outside the Balmoral fills me with anticipation and still makes me feel like a kid at Christmas.
I've got tickets to all the Murrayfield matches again this year, and only hope they're as special as they were last year!
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Totally agree but as a long suffering England fan I must admit tired of the 'anyone but england' mentallity and also players like Gavin Hastings/John Jefferys' hatred of the English. If an England player spoke in the way these two have in the past they would be absolutely lambasted.
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I think that both rugby and football have come along way in recent years in becoming more globalised. Look at the Chelsea football team for example and the amount of foreign players. And then look at teams in rugby union with the amount of players who have represented another country because of mixed parentage/upbringing. Whether or not you support a country because of your bloodline, is up to you the supporter. There is alot of positive things to be said about the globalisation of the sport. Yet a bit of cross border banter doesn't hurt. One of my mates is Welsh and we always enjoy some decent piss-taking when a rugby match is on.
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Spot on, Doug.
I hate politics' involvement in sport, but I think, in general, Devolution has led to a more mature attitude about our identity (and others) not a more immature one. I think there has been a general opening up of the game. It has certainly become more popular in England after they won the RWC and I think some people (football supporters or not) who either aren't aware of rugby's traditions or don't respect them are dragging it down. It should be up to the supporters around them to tell them to shut up or get them removed.
Could it be that professionalism has changed things? We see a lot more cheap shots, cheating and professional fouling now by players (which some amateurs emulate?) that seems to agitate crowds. I've gone back to playing social rugby and was amazed by one team of youngish lads, who clearly take their rugby seriously (no problem with that), constantly lipping at the ref, making smart remarks to opposition players etc etc and still lost. They could barely even shake hands after the game. Maybe some people just need a sense of perspective.
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I have to agree with all the comments made by John Lyons. I myself am a Scot who has been living in England for 20 years, and I think any anti-English attitudes are aimed at media and a minority of ignorant fans.
I am also tired of the English=British attitude amongst some fans, and the endless patronising of Scottish sport. There are one of two prime culprits, especially on rugby comentary. Brian Moore, Jeremy Guscott and Will Carling are typical examples of the arrogant attitude which Scots dislike. Even when Scotland play well, they still do not acknowledge the fact adn they berate all Celtic nations likewise.
I myself supported England on the recent Ashes tour, and support the football and rubgy team whenever they do not play Scotland, but it is easy to see why some dont.
I am not insinuating that it is all one sided, both sides possess negative attitudes towards the other, but can rugby remain the one area where that is irrelevant? I hope so, for the sake of the sport.
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at the end of the day, even rugby fans are human, therefore there will always be a certain percentage who are idiots - let's hope that this percentage stays small and everyone can keep enjoying the game that we all love. After all - that's the whole point isn't it? Roll on the Calcutta Cup...
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I am very proud of the traditions of the game of rugby,I started playing the game in the 70s when a large number of schools played, nowadays very few play.I think we have a duty to show the young the tremendous benefits of the game of rugby,the camaradrie,the discipline and spirit.It is a brotherhood saying that no matter how hard I try god I hate the aussies
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i totally disagree!im a loyal munster fan and have been all around europe and have never seen this kind of behaviour!even when we beat leister they were very nice to us and when they beat us at thomand park we all had a great time!!!!!
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Excellent banter. I have to say that most rugby crowds that I have the pleasure to mingle with enjoy and appreciate good rugby .....why is this ? Because (and different from football in my experience) most have played, at whatever level, and understand and respect the game, your opposition and the officials. This is a key difference and why I still (along with the majority) just want to watch and appreciate rugby. As a Cornishman (who obviously doesn't support England due to our Celtic nationality - when will it be the 7 Nations and we can rightfully take our place in the competition ?!) all I say is good luck to all 6 teams this year. Let's enjoy the rugby, the crack the banter and the beers. I know I will !! If a minority is unable to understand that this is what rugby at all levels is all about then they are not rugby fans - and we need to make sure they either get with the programme or are encouraged to follow another sport. Kernow bis Vikan !!
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I think we all have a collective responsibility to ensure the tradition and etiquette of rugby support continues. The songs sung should be in support of your team and not aimed at riling the opposition. Lets ensure that those who are new to the game know where to draw the line. I believe each nation has it's own role to play in reigning in unwanted abuse, since a word to the wise from a fellow countryman will surely go down better than from an opposition fan.
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I think I may be drifting from the original theme here, but thought I would just cover a quick point of who supports who and why.
I am a passionate Scotland fan, but do have a soft spot for my fellow Celtic nations and Italy too. It is the old argument that Englands' population is 50 million plus. Scotland, Wales and Ireland total about 10 together. We're underdogs, and that is my only thought. Regardless of 1000 years of history of getting invaded, persecuted and bullied, I really couldn't care. Politics? Irrelevant to me. Supporting the underdog to beat big brother who has more resourses, support, funding, players and hype? You bet! It's not racist. It's not hatred. It is the fact that we don't get many days beating the odds, so when the time comes, we revel in it. Simple. As for is it getting worse? As long as England is bigger, and believes they are divinely intitled to be better (and as long as Jeremy 'neutral BBC pundit' Guscott remains in a job), I'll be giving out the banter and singing along with the wee fellas. No more than 10 years ago, and no more less than I will in 10 years time either.
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I experienced serious racism whilst watching England vs Wales in the world cup quarter final back in 2003. In a pub at the top of George Street in Sydney, I noticed some english fans (face paint, flag, outfit, the lot) try to turn banter with some Welsh fans in a full blown fight. They looked like football hooligans, not your average fan despite having the shirt on. The Welsh fans concern was that they were getting in the way of the screen. So they tried it on with the Aussies next to them, with the same result.
Eventually, I and my friends had had enough of this, grabbed the attention of the bouncer 20 foot away who literally sent them airborne through the open door. The entire pub as one regardless of shirt colour turned from the screen, waved goodbye to them, sarcastically wished them a nice day and then focused back on the game.
The above comments are right, rugby does not football fan mentality.
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I'd like to back up the comments of #62 re the Media. A number of English posters have stated that they happily support Scotland / Wales / Ireland when they play and express hurt bewilderment at the fact that actually this support is not universally and automatically reciprocated.
A huge part of this attitude (on the part of the Scots etc) is in response to the ridiculous bias and weighting the national media organisations give to coverage of all things sporting and English. The national press, writing for a market numerically dominated by England gives the people what they want - a flood of coverage bordering on the obsessive and obsequious. Coverage of other nations is at best patchy and often dismissive, patronising, uninformed or often simply absent. The BBC is as guilty of this as any. In the face of this I am not surprised that many people take delight in seeing the "tall poppy" that is England being taken down. I can assure you that if the boot were on the other foot The English would be as desperate for the Scots / Welsh / Irish to lose and make the (media) noise stop. I wanted England to win the RWC in 2003 but a while afterwards I was almost wishing they hadn't.
Unfortunately there are a number of tiny minds who cannot tell the difference between the English media and the English people and who transpose this into a hatred of the "arrogant English".
One last point - Arrogant English? I'm a Scot and I shudder to think what we'd be like if we won anything. Truth is we're all a damn site more alike than we'd all probably like to think.
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Throughout my adult life I have only been aware of a very anti- Engliah attitude from Welsh and Scots fans and have felt compelled to respond in a similar way. I fully understand the History of the resentment and have a degree of sympathy.
I do think that with professionalism and greater commercialism the divisions have grown wider but the seeds have been there a long time but Mr beattie is overly nostalgic in his assessment of Nationalism as a new sentiment. What is newer is a harder English recation.
If you look at all the Nations who play Rugby then England would be in most "top 3 teams we most like to beat" of most of those countries supporters and Number 1 for;
Scots
Welsh
French
Irish
and posibly Aus (depending on how they were doing in the Southern Hemisphere at the time).
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Lets forget politics devoluition etc and get back the fun in the internationals the game is just 80 mins long comrady last for life spcially friendships made thourgh rugby union who cares about who comes from where lets get back to the having a beer to drown our sorrows or celabrate a bit of mickey taking with our FELLOW RUGBY SUPPORTERS from ah the airts will always be welcome at Murrayfield and hopefully in the local hostileries by the locals see you at Twicker in the cabbage patch
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Lets forget politics devoluition etc and get back the fun in the internationals the game is just 80 mins long comrady last for life spcially friendships made thourgh rugby union who cares about who comes from where lets get back to the having a beer to drown our sorrows or celabrate a bit of mickey taking with our FELLOW RUGBY SUPPORTERS from ah the airts will always be welcome at Murrayfield and hopefully in the local hostileries by the locals see you at Twicker in the cabbage patch
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The banter is still there and long may it continue. I have not missed a Wales match since 1971 (and I am only 46!) and still enjoy the ribbing, the sharing of beer, jokes etc. and the handshakes of congratulations / commiserations from the opposition supporters. However, it is OUR job to ensure that this continues and the 'younger generation' know the rugby etiquette. Take note of the Munster crowd last weekend who were silent when Leicester kicked. Sadly, this is unusual now in stadia and let's shut-up those who boo, hiss and jeer kickers. By the way, another Grand Slam on the way for the Welsh, followed by a great showing in the Worls Cup - England - bring back Jonny, Johnno, Backie - it's your only hope!
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If I recall correctly, last season's Calcutta Cup took place in a Murrayfield stadium which resembled a scene from Culloden - complete with kilted Highlanders set to repel all boarders. Perhaps you should address the Home Unions before calling for restraint amongst spectators?
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An Englishman by birth (and by the grace of God - only joking fellas) I had the dubious 'pleasure' of living in Northern Ireland for 9 yrs. Never in my life have I experienced such hatred of everything English. Any England match (football, rugby, lawn bowls, tiddlywinks, etc) was greeted in the pubs by hordes of the locals sporting opposition strips. (when England played Argentina in the 2002 world cup, the majority of sports shops in the province suddenly had a huge upsurge in Argentinian shirt sales). Their hatred even spread to the point that when the Queen Mother died, graffiti appeared across walls all over Belfast proclaiming 'about time'!!
Unfortunately I see some of the same hatred evidenced in the above comments, while most people on here are obviously sane and realise that we all eat, sleep and you know. There are the small, ignorant few who are determined to make their hatred England's fault. Is it the fault of the football team that commentators constantly mention '66, most English people are sick of hearing about it themselves!!
Is it the England Rugby team's fault that, at the time of the World Cup they had the best fly half in world rugby operating at the height of his ability (admittedly he is not at the moment, I am talking about that period in time). Of course not!! the problem that I see is that a small section of people in the Celtic nations are jealous of England's past achievments. ( I lived in Belfast during WC2003 and the backlash to England's win was horrendous) I realise not everyone is like this and it is the few bringing down the many, why? Because the few shout louder. Personally I would be more than happy to sit and watch a scotland/ireland/wales game and support the home team, in fact come autumn international time I see it as North vs South. however I find myself reluctant to do so when all i seem to get back is abuse. People need to start showing that they dont care, when you see/hear these idiots starting up, let them know they're not welcome rather than ignoring them like most people do. Things might be a bit more peaceful then.
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The character and unique appeal of the six antions tournament is, for me, fundamentally based upon the traditional and 'stereotypical' attributes that each nation brings to the party - be it the style of rugby, the silly hats or the rousing songs that distinguish one nation from the other. I am an England fan, but am affected as much by the Welsh fans bellowing 'Land of our Fathers' or a frenzied French 'Marsaillaise' as I am by the rising chorus of 'swing low' in the stands of Twickenham. This does not reflect my alleigence to a national identity, but, rather, stems from a great love of the rugby tradition that, in the modern era of proffessionalism, continues to make the Six Nations so special.
Thus, I was appalled when the Scottish authorities thought it suitable to greet the visiting England team in 2006 with a re-enactment of the 1314 battle of Bannockburn - something that was only ever going to provoke sentiments of national confrontation and hatred. The idea that the event and the re-enactment were somehow inkeeping with one-another shows a dangerous level of stupidity in the organisers and the result, I believe, was an utterly boring game of rugby in which the traditional spirit of the tournament was shunned. Shame on the Scottish RFU for for trying to evoke such deplorable and unwanted nationalistic fervor!!
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in reply to "I am a Welshman, and the problem is the english". First of all the English have not been Anglo-Saxons since the Norman invasion of 1066, in which the normans took power of England. second of all the fact that you claim your Celtic heritage with the idea of "the celts against the Saxon invaders", the celts are as foreign to the Brittish isles as the saxons are (the celts originating in central Europe and being forced to Britain by Roman expansion). so why not drop this racist idea of the English and bear in mind we are all people living in the brittish isles (despite our German, Celtic, French and Roman Lineage), there are no vast diferences between myself (a Scot), my son (English) and you (a welshmen)
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to number 23's comment.i'm scottish and i support England in every game except against Scotland,towards your comment about english arrogance i really disagree, many people hated wilkinson for his apparent "arrogance" also half the english team, but we must look around the world at other "arrogant" players, dan carter, gavin henson,shane williams,dominici,george gregan. now how many players are actually arrogant, i think its jealously of opposing fans which gives them they're arrogant label.
i also agree lets not follow football fans, lets keep the love banter and passion for the game as it is.
phil.
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I am also a football and rugby fan, a season ticket holder at Celtic and a keen home internationals spectator at Murrayfield. The fans who are all bemoaning the decline into a football type atmosphere at rugby matches are way off the mark.
This is another example of rugby snobbery, with some rugby fans consistently seeing themselves as better than football fans. It's allways easy to take the supposed moral high ground and look down on football supporters but the truth is they are more alike than the green welly wearing faction of rugby fans would like to admit. I can remember years of fans booing 'god save the queen' at Murryfield before the aNthems were changed and this was in the so called 'golden age' of rugby camaraderie. Rugby support recently has got more passionate and vocal, also, international sport allways reflects social and cultural differences. Look at southern hemisphere rugby for example and the fan rivalry there, it makes some of our games in years gone by sound very tame. However my main point is that most fans of both rugby and football are not members of the 'prawn sandwich brigades' but do constitute 90% of the atmosphere at every game and if we the fans want to have a wee dig/rib of opposing fans then why not? Also, lets face facts, 99% of all negative rugby banter is aimed at the English media and players by the rest of the 6 nations. They will allways be the team that everyone loves to beat/hate. Indeed look at when they won the world cup and proudly displayed the slogan 'The Empire strikes back' across a prominent london landmark. You didn't see the Aussies getting all antsy and complaining about 'rugby gone bad'.
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One of the main things that has changed is that rugby 20 years ago or so was a game run, played and watched by "rugby people" who understood the special quality our game has. When I used to visit Twickenham it was full of rugby people as well as the corporates of course.
With professionalism, which has tremendously improved the quality of rugby, a wider audience has been attracted to the game.Unfortunately not all of these appreciate how to behave and treat the day as pseudo - soccer environment.
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Dear number 73, the Roman expansion forced the Celts into the British Isles?????????????
Please at least look up some history facts before posting such nonsense!!
You are at least 1 thousand years off the mark
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Hi there,
As a proud Welshman and Celt, id say yes...we do need the Nationalistic rivalry, but keep it the way it always has been in rugby...friendly and fun but competitive!!
Its not a bad thing to be proud to say who you are and were your from.
There is too much 'PC' in the world now, and its starting to creep into our beloved game. Take away the pride of your own country, then kill the fun of banter before and after matches.
Besides...Im Welsh, there is no way i am letting the enghish have an easy time when we play then!!:-)
Best regards.
And.
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*45 Jonathan Chapman - good perception: "there is plenty of anti-anti-English feeling" and I'd be happy if your countrymen kept that as their focus. Goodness knows you have evry right to defend yourselves against unwarranted criticism!
I'm proud to be a Scot but I also know that anti-Englishness adds NOTHING to my Scottish identity - in fact it subtracts from it. I'm happy to be a rival and I don't want to be an enemy.
I admit to having difficulty supporting England but really wrestle with that in the face of my English friends who I care for deeply. If you can genuinely wish Scotland well then you're doing better than a lot of my countrymen can in response and perhaps it is precisely that quality, that gives a lot of English people the 'ethical edge' over us that grouse, which the English are in very real danger of losing. PLEASE DON'T LOSE IT. I just wish some of my own would learn to celebrate their own identity without having to make their neighbours lives a misery.
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I am a Scot living in London who travels to both football and rugby Scotland internationals, home and away. The rugby atmosphere is something very special, and it saddens me to see an increase in booing the opposition kicks and the other incremental deteriorations in the support. I'd hate the mixed crowds and the banter in the pubs before and after to be lost. In particular, the Cardiff weekend is always absolutely fantastic.
I don't think it can be doubted that Scots enjoy beating the English at football and rugby. Very much. It doesn't happen very often, but it's great when it does. That's natural: neighbours enjoy local rivalries. My English friends know that our rivalry probably matters more to Scotland than England, but that's OK; again, it's natural for the underdog to feel it more. There are idiots on both sides, of course. I feel for English supporters abused in pubs supporting their team, as they are entitled to do; and then when Scotland played England last time at Wembley in 1999 (fitba), some friends were spat at on the tube, and some others were punched in the head from behind whilst walking up Wembley Way. Horrible.
I think that the best that can be said is that those of us with any sense, which I'm pleased to see seems to be almost everyone on this thread, should recognise occasional incidents as regrettable but isolated, take a deep breath and try not to let that colour their view of Scotland/England/other fans generally (example: 4 young england supporters watching 'final score' in a pub in rose street, surprised that the scots premier football results were shown first in Scotland: 'what's this jock rubbish on for, why don't they show the proper football first'). Deep breath.
It's up to us international-attending supporters to make sure that in 20 years a six nations weekend is still as fantastic as ever, recognise loval rivalries for what they are, and stick to self-policing where possible/seeing the wood for the trees where there is an occasional halfwit.
Enjoy the championship
Craig
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I went to Gloucester last week to watch my beloved Leinster play, and I had the displeasure of sitting next to this idiot who supported Munster who travelled all the way from Ireland to cheer on Gloucester in a Munster shirt, he had no interest in Gloucester he just wanted to cause trouble for us Leinster fans, as he intentionally sat with the Leinster fans, I thought what a idiot. In conclusion I think the Leinster Munster rivalry is getting out of hand, and Munster fans like that really have no right to call themselves the world's best supporters, before this and many other unpleasant experiences I'd always shout for Munster if it didn't affect Leinster as my Mum is from Cork, and have extended family in Limerick and its an Irish team, but seeing them lose in Thomond Park last week as well brought a huge smile to my face.
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It's not just Six Nations rugby, the footballisation of the game is evident at club level too - I watched Saracens play Narbonne in Watford two weeks ago and although the visitors scored three good consolation tries towards the end, no-one around me applauded the scores. I was brought up in the 80s to appreciate both teams' play, however reluctantly and however painful it was to see your rivals score, perhaps that's a thing of the past in this age of cheerleaders and the overexcited Sky-ification of our sport.
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I'm English and at Uni in Swansea. This will be my 3rd 6 nations here, and hopefully not my last, I want to live here. But, the attitude of the Welsh does annoy me a little. It is only a minority, as Im usually watching games with Welsh fans, but I've endured booing of the anthem, booing every time an English player touch the ball, and personal abuse for wearing the rose with pride, none of this when we were playing Wales though! During the autumn game against Argentina I heard the comment that causes alot of the problems, "I dont like rugby but as long as England lose I dont care". That attitude will cause problems, but I know its not the attitude of most true rugby fans. I have ultimate respect for fans of all the other nations and hopefully will always be able to have a drink with them after the game.
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Think Posts 80 and 87 are what its all about. My best and worst match was in Edinburgh September 2001. Drove up from England full of hope and cheek, spent the Friday night in Hawick taking the mick. Watched the match with a Welsh/English couple whose honeymoon had been diverted to Glasgow because of 9/11 and a couple of Scots who had got tickets from friends who thought it was a waste of time turning up. The result was a disaster for Ireland but the sight of the Scots celebrating afterwards made up for it, almost!
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The problem is i think the popularity of rugby, back in the good old days it wasn't a game for the masses and therfore excaped the thuggery associated with the masses, now everybody loves rugby it has attracted fans away from football who see the competition as a chance for both verbal and physical sparring with the opposing fans, so until the game slips back into partial obscurity again we may be stuck with the louts. Living as i do in New Zealand i can happily say the aggresion has yet to sufae over here still stuck with happy banter and drinking too heavily and comisserating with new found friends
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I reckon the whole Scots & welsh assembly has pushed everyone into a corner. You look at the 1966 world cup, you could not find a England flag in the old TV footage it was all union jacks. Same as the cricket in the mid 80's when Botham was dishing out lessons to the Aussies. Again union jacks. But since the talk about Scots and welsh independence the English have been forced into a bit of a corner. No longer is the British identify enough, it’s now required to find a English identity, mainly because the Scots and Welsh have had reason to reinforce their own national identify and pride via the new parliaments. I reckon this has gone a long way to splitting the bonds between the home unions and strengthening the differences. I neither agree or disagree with this. I live in Australia now where I have more in common with the English than I have ever, but also am now the proudest Scot possible. But in a climate when the Euro has help more and more countries find there identify England have followed suit. This has sadly meant we now feel obliges to stress the differences. Common Scotland!!
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I think some of the marketing of the games doesn't help either e.g. the BBC & SRU emphasising the Wallace & bannockburn stuff before a Calcutta Cup game. While most people will take it with a pinch of salt, there'll be a few who will take it to another level and believe the game is a recreation of a battle long ago.
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Well, I've spent the best part of a bleary eyed Monday morning reading every single comment and with the exception of the football fan, who doesn't realise that you can have a beer and enjoy a sporting occasion without violence and a few narrow minded 'lost souls', we can all take pride that the bulk of people that are prepared to contribute to rugby (like in this blog) all have the best interests of the game and sportsmanship at heart.
I am a scot living in England and have played rugby in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It is a sport that crosses borders and always has. There will, unfortunately, be a minority that try and ruin it for the rest of us, but it is equally our responsibility to stop it happening. I've stood up before and had a go at scots who have crossed the line with english friends of mine. Equally I've actually taken a beating from 3 english blokes, wait for it, when they played Scotland a few years ago ! Who stepped in ? An English man with morals ! Did it bother me ? Yes. Does it change my opinion of the people in the country that I choose to live...NO !! Minorities aren't worth the time of day !
Rugby has always transcended nationality and will continue to do so, provided the responsible rugby loving fans continue to keep it that way. We all have a responsibility !
Just one other point.....please, please can we drop 'Flower of Scotland' many scots on here have spoken of being baited by the English.....our chosen song for rugby (NOT !! national Anthem 'the Brave !!' is pretty blatantly aimed at showing off for beating the English (700 years ago)......and we are all too happy to complain about the English being proud of a world cup win in 1966 or 2003 ! Thats just a little hypocritical.
Long live rugby and all its traditions ! We should all be proud that we are standing up for our sport !
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A lot of footy fans started watching England when England won the world cup. So you have lots of these at the matches now. Not all fans are like this tho, it's still a very small majority. I went with some footy fans that were newly converted to rugby to watch the local club play. It was London Irish at the Mad Stad and my Reading footy supporting friend was amazed that firstly we were drinking beer in our seats watching the match and that secondly we were sat next to fans of the opposing side! Lets hope that rugby stays this way!!
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It is quite clear from these comments there is a problem with anti English hostility at sporting events. I suggest that England drops out of Rugby home internationals as they did with football. I would like to see no more GB teams,and I definitely never want to see English only teams like the GB Rugby league
play under the union jack again.
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You are trying to make a story where there isn't one. Despite the talk, I do not see any genuine anti English hostility at any of the six nations clashes. If anything, your story is only likely to create such hostility and attract the people who want to fight. Leave rugby out of this kind of media hype please.
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I think it's an unfortunate fact of life that there will always be some individuals who get a bit carried away, however let's not blow this out of proportion - I've been going to Scotland games for about 20 years now, both at Murrayfield and away, and have never witnessed any serious incidents of crowd trouble.
In general most people at these events are there for the right reasons - to support their team, have a bit of banter with the other team's supporters and maybe a wee sherry or two after the game. I don't really see that changing any time soon.
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For every idiot in the crowd you will find 50 decent rugby fans. I think this is the same with most sports althugh unfortunately some other non handling codes of Football have slightly different ratios.
Decent sportsfans will always exist, rugby fans will banter with their mates too. Lets not sanitise the crowd by making us all PC. Viva la difference!!
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Well when we see the front tiers at twickenham filled with meat heads wearing hacket I think we know where this agression originates. I think its fair to say that the core England support has been significantly infiltrated by the BNP and its very sad to see.
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I agree with the opinions expressed by a number of readers that the media tends to get up the nose of anyone who is not English. However, this is not the fault of the English fans as it is just that they happen to be in the majority. The newspapers, channels and websites obviously cater for the majority, regardless of whether they are supposed to be public as in the case of the BBC, as this is common sense to boost readership/spectatorship numbers. I feel the historical angle is blown out of proportion and if more of us Celts spoke our native languages as a mother tongue and read news in the Celtic languages, we wouldn't react half as violently to English journalists crowing because we simply wouldn't be exposed to them.
As an Irishman who speaks fluent French, I've often thought the French are as bad as the English and believe that if the Celts were exposed to the French media we would treat the French supporters and team like the English one despite having no historical reason to do so. I can remember watching Leinster vs PErpignan at the HC SF a few years ago and being annoyed by the racist chants of a small number of the opposing team's supporters, a rage which was shared by the people around me when I translated for them.
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I think you're worrying a bit too much. Last year at Twickenham I ended up with a Welshman, Scotsman, Frenchman and an Irishman and it was a fantastic day. I've never had a bad day at an international except once at the Arms Park when the crowd around me were very aggressive when I shouted 'accidental offside'! (The referee agreed).
I once saw someone at the Middlesex Sevens who had had rather too much beer and tried to start a fight. About four of the crowd around him grabbed his shoulders and told him to shut up and sit down as if he were at school. He did and he enjoyed the rest of the tournament.
If you think it's different just go to one of the pubs or speak to the police!
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I absolutely agree with the sentiment of the article in that rugby has a fantastic reputation as a friendly sport. Indeed one of my favourite memories is mixing with French fans in a pub before the match at Murrayfield last year, and I am sure this will continue.
However, the rest is complete gobbledigook....'just because someone drew a line in the ground and called it a border', have you any idea about how differently our nations have developed? When you were 16 did you just support rugby and hoped that the best team won? Not much of a Scotland fan eh? And just aswell someone had the presence of mind to draw all these borders...otherwise we'd all have to support one massive world team...and have no-one to play against!
You're talking about national team sport here, of course passions and rivalry will be involved, and you're talking nonsense in my opinion.
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Having studied and travelled abroad I have come into contact with a number of other Home Nations countries(Irish,Scots and Welsh) and to a man they all want England to get beat in any sporting event(my friends included).
At first I thought this was just light-hearted banter but actually there is a deep-rooted anti-English sentiment, whereas from an English standpoint the opposite is not generally true.
While, clearly I have made a generalisation here, from personal experience I have found the above to be true.
This may be being a bit simplistic, but why can't all the home nations root for each other when not playing each other.
The Olympics sees a unified team(ecxcluding ROI) and the Ryder cup and other sporting events sees a British team so why does it now seem that Rugby may head down the football route.
Rivalry is healthy but fanaticism is not.
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Having studied and travelled abroad I have come into contact with a number of other Home Nations countries(Irish,Scots and Welsh) and to a man they all want England to get beat in any sporting event(my friends included).
At first I thought this was just light-hearted banter but actually there is a deep-rooted anti-English sentiment, whereas from an English standpoint the opposite is not generally true.
While, clearly I have made a generalisation here, from personal experience I have found the above to be true.
This may be being a bit simplistic, but why can't all the home nations root for each other when not playing each other.
The Olympics sees a unified team (excluding ROI) and the Ryder cup and other sporting events sees a British team so why does it now seem that Rugby may head down the football route.
Rivalry is healthy but fanaticism is not.
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I couldn't agree more John.
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I would rather see any other team win the 6 nations than england because we'd hear about it for the next 20 years. The spirit of the english players is different to that of any other team, they have tempers which aren't needed in rugby. I can't remember the last game I watched where a Scot lost their temper when they were at fault!! The scottish players are so much more laid back and usually any arguments, pushing, or fighting is started by one of the english players and the english fans cheer it on so no wonder we take it out on the fans! I was at the scotland vs france and scotland vs england games last yr - in the french game, 2 french guys walked out in the last couple of mins because they knew they couldn't win, and in the english game I was sat in the middle of two english blokes - the one to the right of me walked out before scotland were handed the calcutta cup and didn't clap for us once! sorry but what do they expect back from us????
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Thanks for the interest in this. I do believe that, for some reason, attitudes have hardened between some fans which is a manifestation of the hardening attitudes of our countries toward each other.
Which is a flaming shame.
I'm not, actually, sure that it is the media's fault either. I don't think producers think: "Right, let's pick this idiot and stick him on TV."
Thanks alot to post 121
which is very sensible. I grew up believing that the British Isles, all of them, are a bit special and bound together somehow.
Happy rucking everyone, remember, a ruck a day helps you live that little bit longer. It can be painful and tiring, but it's always worth the effort
JB
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Reading John Beattie's article, I think the problem lies in him having a total humour bypass. Every international I have been to home or away banter is the only thing flying, no fist but plenty cutting wit. So John try to remember to bring your humour with you when you come to the pub after the game!
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Agree with John 100% though am wary of his timing ahead of the holyrood elections - these things get hijacked by the 80 minute nationalists, so this year will probably be worse than ever. The SRU has to take a fair share of the blame - the embarrassing "Braveheart" display before last year's Calcutta cup match was a disgrace, with face painted, kilted actors jabbing spears at the England team as they ran out. Surely we are better than that.
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This thread has its share of cranks. John P at 114 above spent nine years in Belfast and spotted graffiti gloating about the Queen Mothers death 'all over' the city. Mmmmm. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Belfast would know that in very large areas of the city one could define such attempts at anti-royal graffiti as suicidal. As for the Argy tops and anti-England pubs. Perhaps John H restricted his 9 year stay to republican areas. England flags and tops were much in evidence in Belfast over the past 2 World Cups in the absence of a Northern Ireland presence. Not down the Falls Road, I grant you, but then Belfast consists of more than that. As for rugby, I was not alone in Belfast rejoicing when the Aussies got their comeuppance in the last world cup, or who did not cheer when Wilkinson scored in such dramatic fashion. John H has a vivid and warped imagination. Maybe he should move to Metropolis for his next set of experiences.
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I'm afraid this new style of rugby supporter isn't cofined to the 6 nations. I, being an Irish rugby fan travelling around New Zealand, thought I was blessed getting my hands on a couple of Bledisloe cup tickets for myself and my Aussie flatmate a few months ago. We arrive at Eden park, me in my green jersey and flag around my shoulders, flatmate with his golden top, to be greeted by kicks, pushing, spitting and food thrown at us by the Eden park "faithful", and continued for the whole match. Afraid to say, our experiences don't hold much for the RWC in 2011, when New Zealand will have to accomidate more than a couple of Aussie fans and the odd lost Irish one. Also, been to a Bledisloe in Sydney 2 years ago, and not 1 single bad thing to say.
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Rugby World Cup Semi-Final England v France 2003, myself and my girlfriend are at the game with French, Irish, English, aussies and kiwis all around us the banter is as per normal and everyone is enjoying the game. In comes an Englishman and some of his friends and trys to a) upset the French crowd by offensive comments and b) get the crowd to join in. What happend next was what I expect from a rugby crowd. The guy was pointed out to by 3 stewards who threw him out.
At the final we were behind a guy called "Killer" (well thats what it said on his shirt!) who as an aussie was peoud to wear the green and gold and was enjoying and taking part in the banter. Through the game the comments were on-going, but in the spirit of the game, after wheich we both enjoyed the evening (and early morning) and still keep in-touch.
Thats the game and thats the spirit of the supporters that watch it - god help us if this changes.
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I totally agree. I am worried about the road tha