Andrew's autumn test
The 96 names in England's senior, Saxons and Under-20 squads are neatly arranged in colour-coded rows on a wall of Rob Andrew's Twickenham office.
He's been busy rejigging them in recent weeks, following injuries to a dozen players in Martin Johnson's senior squad.
Next month's autumn internationals, against Australia, Argentina and New Zealand, will be the benchmark of the progress Andrew has made since becoming England's first director of elite rugby three years ago.
His remit then was to "develop young rugby talent through the elite player pathway".
Andrew says he inherited a broken system in 2006
And with so many leading players out injured, we are about to find out whether or not he has succeeded. The former England fly-half accepts that now is the time to judge the progress he has made.
"At my interview for the job I said it would take three years to shape where we needed to go," he told me when I visited his Twickenham HQ a few weeks ago.
"We've now got two years' worth of graduates from the Under-20s and a couple of them are coming into the Saxons and even the senior squad."
Courtney Lawes is the most notable of these players. The Northampton forward has been rocketed from the Under-20s into Johnson's squad in the space of only a few months.
Yet Andrew still seems to have a lot of critics to win over. Google "what does Rob Andrew do?" and you get more than 1,000 responses.
Perhaps it's because his position has never existed before, or because people are suspicious of a well-known figure deemed to be lurking in the shadows behind the England coach.
Andrew insists his job is to support the England coach and take a strategic view of the whole of elite rugby, much like a director of football would do at a Premier League club.
He suggests he inherited a broken system in 2006, where the England team "existed in isolation" and there was "no joined-up thinking about what came after 2003".
So Andrew has created an "elite pathway", which starts with the academies and runs through the Under-18s to the Under-20 side, the Saxons and ultimately the full England team.
The Under-18s are unbeaten since 2007 and the Under-20s have reached the last two World Cup finals, which they lost on each occasion to New Zealand.
Andrew won 71 caps for England, winning the Grand Slam in 1991, 1992 and 1995
"We are closing the gap on New Zealand and have caught South Africa and Australia at age-grade level," argues Andrew, who looks as lithe and youthful as he did in his playing days.
The big test now will be whether the graduates of the junior teams can make the grade in Johnson's side. Andrew's other major objective has been to mend the RFU's broken relationship with the Guinness Premiership clubs.
In the middle of our interview, Andrew got up, unlocked a cupboard and pulled out a bulky A4 document.
It was the eight-year agreement between the clubs and union, signed in November 2007.
It outlines a system under which the clubs are compensated for agreeing to allow the RFU to manage England's elite players.
"This took a great deal of time and a lot of money to put together," Andrew says. "We needed to have a better relationship with the Premiership, because that is fundamental to England's future success.
"I actually think our relationship is very strong now. It's not perfect, but there has been a realisation that we need to work together."
So far, so good. But Andrew's nadir came last spring, when he was almost universally criticised for his handling of Brian Ashton's sacking as England coach.
Just weeks after giving Ashton a vote of confidence, Andrew had pulled the trigger on the likeable Lancastrian. Worst of all, it seemed everyone knew what was happening to Ashton other than the man himself, thanks to a series of leaks from the RFU.
The former Newcastle director of rugby adjusts his rimless glasses as he thinks back to last March and admits it was a "difficult, unsettling period".
Yet he insists he would not do anything differently if the situation arose again.
"It was a rescue job in 2007 and Brian was exactly the right man for picking up the pieces at that particular time," he says.
"But in the end, it was about trying to build something for the longer term and getting the right guy in, which was Martin. Unfortunately, one of the problems of dealing with high-profile personnel changes in sport is that you can't do it quietly."
How is his relationship with Ashton now?
"Of course he was disappointed, but that's the same in any walk of life when you make changes. It was tough, but we got over it."
Andrew also adds that Ashton did some consultancy work for the elite department last year. When the RFU's elite director was copping flak from all sides last March, Sir Clive Woodward waded in by questioning Andrew's credentials and suggesting his relationship with Johnson would be "a forced marriage".
Yet Andrew shrugs off Woodward's criticism - it's worth noting that the World Cup-winning coach was passed over for the elite director job - and insists he has a strong working relationship with Johnson.
The 46-year-old, a Cambridge Blue at both rugby and cricket, speaks enthusiastically about Johnson's first 18 months in the England hotseat and believes the side have "moved a long way from a difficult start" under him.
"Martin is very clear on what he wants to do, but he also listens to people," Andrew says.
"He's been there and done it at the very highest level, is a quick learner and knows what is required to be successful."
Now comes the big test against Australia, Argentina and New Zealand - all of whom are higher in the world rankings than England - at Twickenham next month.
The games will tell us a lot about Johnson's evolving team, and also about the progress Andrew has made behind the scenes at Twickenham.
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Interesting
He is a bit harsh of Sir Clive though - the guy won a World Cup!
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Unfortunately, England aren't playing the Southern Hemisphere trio next month as the Springboks wont be at Twickers. Perhaps a good thing as this team could do well against Australia and New Zealand but the Boks may be too strong for an injury hit England.
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At least 80% of people eading this will Google "what does Rob Andrew do?" - I know I did :D
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The article doesn't answer the question. What does he do?
If Andrew is selecting the squads, what is Johnson doing? Johnson isn't the coach, he's the manager.
"Directors of football" don't work in football. can you imagine Wenger, Fergie or Capello being told to work with a Director of football?
So what does Andrew do?
And are England a better team now than when they sacked Ashton (who'd taken them to a WC final)
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It's a bit rich to say there was "no joined-up thinking about what came after 2003". If I remember correctly Sir Clive Woodward resigned precisely because the RFU began unpicking everything he had put in place.
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what house rule did i break? this is pathetic.
Andrew didn't hire Woodward because he's scared of him, knowing Clive is the only man who has attempted to plan long-term, and take this losses to reap future rewards.
Johnson is equally afraid of progress, and as a result picks a bunch of players whose only virtue is that they are of his generation (Mears, Kay, Vickery, Borthwick, Tindall etc), which hinders the progress of the young talent coming through.
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Results 1 - 10 of about 27,500,000 for what does Rob Andrew do?. (0.09 seconds
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#5 Silk...apologies if I didn't go into enough detail on this.
Andrew says he takes an overview of elite rugby - in terms of players/ coaches/ referees. He has:
* overseen revamp of Academy structure, with RFU now funding club academies
* beefed up England U18s and U20s, giving them full-time coaches
* brokered agreement between clubs & RFU (time will tell on this)
* negotiates with clubs on behalf of Johnno (eg securing release of Barnes&Bell this week, who weren't in any of the original squads)
* trying to ensure Johnno gets what he wants in terms of training facilities etc)
The jury is probably still out on how effective he's been though, which is why the autumn internationals will be interesting. Is the system producing enough players to plug the gaps left by Flutey, Flood etc...
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I've never got why everyone is so harsh on Andrew, the guy has done a very good job in my opinion - yeah the Ashton saga wasnt handled well, but he has been developing ND1 as a professional league, one in which the GP teams can send their youngsters there for experience, we've got some extremely talented young players at all GP clubs - take Wasps for example, Beech, Whitehead, Baker in the front row, Ellis, Williams in the back row, Simpson, Wade, Waldouck, Cipriani etc in the backs, all of whom will play for England!
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Is the system producing enough players to plug the gaps left by Flutey, Flood etc...
Flutey only played because we produced one good generation and stopped there. He isn't good enough to play for NZ, so he shouldn't play for England.
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As a Welshman I'm starting to believe he's employed by us or the Irish. He has single handedly destroyed a world cup winning team and has allowed the Welsh, and now the awesome Irish, to take the Six Nations limelight. In all the years he has been there England have not progressed in results or ranking. Perhaps instead of looking at the coaches the blame should be laid at his feet?
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Take a look at Simon Jone's article in the latest edition of the Sunday Times which questions the philosophy of our elite player development programme and our fixation on developing players for the future - in particular: why a Saxons team full of 'players for the future' and not full of our next best players, ready to step-in immediately when required through injury (obviously now a big problem in the modern game)?
Well Rob Andrew?
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darkvalleysboy1978 - so are you saying that it is Andrew's fault that Woodman, Thompson (effectively) Johnson, Back, Hill, Dallagio, Dawson, Greenwood, Robinson etc all had to retire and that Wilko has been largely out of action since 2003? I'm not really sure about that one...its the RFU post 2003 who failed to plan proactively and Andrew has been left to pick up the pieces, our problem is nothing to do with the England set up, just look at how good u18-u20 squads are, the problem is that these youngsters cannot develop from that spot on because they are competing against full internationals for a starting line up for their clubs at weekends - look at who Hugo Ellis competes against to start for Wasps - Rees, Betson, Worsley, Leo etc, how does a 20 year old break in against players like that? That's why we need a fully pro second league, so players like Ellis can go get the experience required instead of sit in the reserves - that's what Andrew has provided us with. THings dont magically get better over night!
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As a Welshman I am delighted to see Rob Andrew in charge of England as he adds no value at all. Totally over rated as a player - he really was ordinary - and the same as a... well whatever it is he does. Self serving, blame deflecting waster. Please keep him in place.
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I do not understand why people think the professional Championship is the answer. There are three maybe four clubs in that league for whom it is sustainable to be professional. When the structure of the finances changes after three years, I believe it will become unsustainable for the other sides aswell.
Already Nottingham, London Welsh, Birmingham have had public issues with their finances and I'm sure there will be others in the next 18 months.
The decision the RFu has made in relation to the new Championship will sound the death knell for many clubs and in 5 years I am confident the league will be back to the structure of last year following a breathtakingly shortsighted decision by the RFU.
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The trouble with Andrew's position is that in the view of the public and, ultimately, in that of his employers, he will be judged by the very thing he cannot control: England's results.
It's all very well laying the foundations - and credit to Andrew for doing that - but foundations in rugby are like the foundations of a house: you can't see them. What people see is the England team.
It is therefore Martin Johnson's role to make Andrew's position teneable by producing results. We will see what happens over the coming year but the last 6 nations were at least encouraging - England lost two games that could have gone either way, in stark contrast to the previous couple of seasons.
When Johnson manages to convert these tight games into wins rather than losses, he will validate Andrew's position. So as i say, the one factor on which his career hinges is the one thing he cannot control.
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I am not 100% sure about the pathway approach - If you happen to be lucky enough to get on to the pathway early your talent will get you a cap eventually, given a little fortune re injury etc. The problem lies with getting on the path. Regional County coaches select age group players and these are the only players looked at for early age group England teams U16 and U18 - These coaches are one step up from the helpful Dad that run mini rugby teams - Coaching badges are pretty easy to come by and their motivation is to be seen wearing county or regional kit - kudos! I can't tar everyone with the same brush but recent experience with the coach in my county was appalling. Each county's preparation affects the chances of each player in their group. National selection in Rugby is a lottery and geographically where you play can make a huge difference to your success-
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#13
So, if Andrew and England have done such a bad job (second in 6 Nations last year) and Wales have stepped into the limelight (4th in 6 Nations last year).... something doesn't quite add up. You can keep your New Zealand and English head coaches, we'll see how this progress continues under Andrew and Johnson.
I've heard before that tables don't lie. Fair point on Ireland though, awesome last year. Johnson (and Andrew) should only be judged after this years 6 Nations.
Would like to see Andrew bring about more changes to number of games a season, perhaps contributes to injuries.
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#18 Hermannredux - very well put. Wish I had have come up with that myself!
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Well said "captainlazytim" - we can't complain about Flutey being out as he wasn't our player in the first place! (he'll be back in NZ in a couple of years, never to return, with a fistful of €s).
Given all of the above let's just hope that Mr. Andrew isn't paid very well. He makes it worse for himself by criticizing players going overseas (Have you forgotten that year in Toulouse Rob? Is it becasue you were shown up as average by a skilful Toulousain backline and rarely played in the 1st team?). Personally I would back the Eurostar to get me from London to Paris quicker than the motorway to Gloucester/Newcastle/Sale. Haskell and his colleagues also talk about picking up greater skills and learning new styles of play. Talking of which he himself is responsible for a generation of kick and rush - all players who grew up watching his boring England team. If anything he should have sacked himself and installed Ashton as the Chief. I can't remember others queueing up to employ him!
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The trouble with Andrew's position is that in the view of the public and, ultimately, in that of his employers, he will be judged by the very thing he cannot control: England's results.
I thought he was supposed to make sure that the England manager has a stream of talent to work with, not get involved with squad
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Rob's glasses are funny.
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#23 captainlazytim
I fully agree with you, that is his "job", or what it's supposed to be.
Unfortunately though, as with any job, you are judged in the long run by results. So while his job doesn't include involvement in the England team, the bottom line will always be how the team fares.
Fair enough really - he has to be accountable somehow, it would be too easy otherwise: he could just carry on sacking coach after coach until he retires.
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I note RA doesn't mention the national U16 team of last season in his successes ... They even lost to Italy! Hmmm!
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#25 hermannredux
"Fair enough really - he has to be accountable somehow, it would be too easy otherwise: he could just carry on sacking coach after coach until he retires."
Funny, I bet that's what happens!
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The Elite Academy route is OK to a point BUT what about young late developers aged 16 - 18 not involved in an Academy yet They might not get the chance. Allied to this, the RFU (in their infinite wisdom) have just done away with the U18 AER England team, which means that unless player is already in an Academy, many good late developers will be lost ... The breeding ground of our county / divisional youth rugby has been totally undermined. Good decision for our England future, I don't think!
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The only performance enhancement that will have been made by Rob Andrew is his own climb up the ladder. Newcastle seem better off without him. Bates who was pushed by Andrew and has now returned seems to be doing rather well, quelle suprise. Ah well with Johnson now choosing eight Leicester players for the squad we should all be bored to death by Christmas. Does performance enhancement include entertainment ????
PDL
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The england team seems to me to be in permanent transition...
and im not really sure what can be done bout that, id assume thats what Andrews role is, to bring some kind of structure to it all...
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I believe we have a significant problem identifying players with talent at a key age (15 - 18 yrs old). Too many big, uncoordinated, gym-monkeys and not enough players with natural ball-skills, timing and flair. Ask yourself ... how many England forwards are comfortable off-loading the ball out of the tackle, rather than simply going to ground for yet another ruck?
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#25 Hermanredux.
"Unfortunately though, as with any job, you are judged in the long run by results. So while his job doesn't include involvement in the England team, the bottom line will always be how the team fares.
Fair enough really - he has to be accountable somehow, it would be too easy otherwise: he could just carry on sacking coach after coach until he retires."
I think we've had a comparable situation with Hugh Morris in the world of cricket. He is managing director (http://www.cricinfo.com/england/content/story/313350.html) and still it's unsure what he does. As that article states, he is apparently a link between the head coach and the players, and he has responsibility of all England team affairs. However, when we had Pietersen and Moores battling it out, it was unclear what Morris's role actually was. Consequently we lost both coach and captain and Morris continued in his position.
It feels like Andrew is in a similar role in which he has a lot of grand power but the lines are blurred when you try to see what separates him from Johnson's role. I'm no fan of these grand 'director of' roles. In football it has been a failure and work experience showed me a lot of director roles were fairly useless in that they commanded salary, respect, and a fair amount of power, but very little actual accountability.
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#28
I don't think it's quite as narrow minded aas that.
Courtney Lawes took the game up late and he's in the setup now.
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I think that we will have to wait until RWC2015 to see if the structure of player development that Andrew has overseen is successful or not because the talented 18-20 years now in the U18 and U20 sides will be 24-26.
I'll reserve my judgement until then.
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I think it will be quite interesting to see where both England and Wales stand during the autumn. Both sides have New Zealand, Argentina and Australia in their radar, while Wales have an extra game against Samoa to think about. I don't mean that it would be a chance to compare Wales and England as that would prove futile with so many players out on both sides. Merely, it will i think, allow both sides to take stock of their young newcomers and hopefully on both sides of the severn scalps will be taken.
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i personally think that RA will get it right in time, having sat through a dinner speech a while ago by RA he was correct in saying that to many players today play by number and not the top 2 inches of their heads. but having an Elite player development path will not necessary change this. as has already be pointed out boys selected for the academies come from county and regional rugby where they are mostly picked for their size at that age- not ability, therefore late developers are not picked up and are lost to the system. this is a comment i wrote on a different thread a couple of years ago:
"On a slight tangent to the lack of outstanding talented FH'S available etc...a couple of months ago I had the fortune to be having a few beers one Saturday afternoon at my local club (Bracknell) when watching a game involving a development side from Chobham rfc. they had a young 17yrd old playing at IC Who was not only bashing up players nearly twice his size but the distribution, running lines and tactical awareness was sublime, the best I can remember seeing in a player that age for many a year at any level of rugby.
it turns out that this lad normally not only plays for Wellington college (berks 1st xv) but more importantly is also on the books with Harlequins LEAGUE academy !! and normally plays FH but can play as well any where in the back line.
Is it any wonder we struggle to find talent at senior levels when lads like this are being picked by up league sides of all people instead of our union accademies?
i recently enquired about this lad when we played Chobham again and was told that although he more than fulfilled the potential shown due to the lack of opportunity in playing at a decent level he has taken to coaching and is already coaching at both Harlequins and Wasps, what's the saying " form is fleeting talent is for life", but it is still an exceptional playing talent gone to waste.
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Simon Austin - BBC Sport : Thanks for your comments, which make things a lot clearer.
But it begs the question, is Johnson picking the England Senior side? Indeed, aside from negotiating the release of players, does Andrew have any input into the selection or coaching of England?
Because if he does, what is Johnson's role?
If he doesn't, it seems like a perfectly sensible division of duties, to be honest. But it wasn't clear when you said
"The 96 names in England's senior, Saxons and Under-20 squads are neatly arranged in colour-coded rows on a wall of Rob Andrew's Twickenham office.
He's been busy rejigging them in recent weeks, following injuries to a dozen players in Martin Johnson's senior squad."
who was actually calling the shots.
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I asked Andrew about this, silk. He said he had an input into selection/ coaching of the senior squad but MJ had the ultimate say
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This article provides yet another example of why the rest of the rugby world (without exception) think England are arrogant and pretentious, not to mention boring. Talk of "developing players along an elite pathway" is just a load of old mumbo-jumbo designed to produce a smokescreen to disguise England's inherent lack of natural flair and skill. If there are so many young players being guided along the elite pathway, why is it necessary to bring back St Jonny of Toulon ?
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#39 Dragonman27
I thought it was the Irish that the welsh hated the most?? On the point of 'everybody hating england', and whether Jonny is worth his place, here's an interesting quote from Dan Carter about monsier wilkinson:
"I look up to him and he's been an inspiration in my career. Jonny is a hero of mine and he's up there with the best players in the world."
Sometimes it's great to hear what real professionals in the game think about follow teams and individual players - there is a respect in there for sure. Great to see Jonny back, and I reckon english guys like me are wishing Henson speedy recovery. His wife's chat show's are bit dodgy but the guy is awesome when fit.
Andrew? Give the guy a chance, Clive Woodward took time to turn around English rugby with lots of detractors along the way - let's give Andrew the chance.
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40. At 11:10pm on 29 Oct 2009, lionCraig65 wrote:
well put, but dragon lives in fantasy. "why bring back the world's best 10?" eejit
Johnson was a stupid appointment, and is a step back. He has no experience, and needs to learn a lot before he can coach at club level, let alone international.
RA knows he is in Sir Clive's chair, and the RFU proved they aren't interested in long-term success when they overlooked Woodward because they were scared of his vision and influence, once again they have let the English team down.
Finally, my point about Flutey isn't a nationality driven one, more that Tait should have been given a real chance, and that if Andrew was doing his job (or anything) we'd have some decent young centres in the team now.
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I Googled what doe Rob Andrew do? and it came up with Nothing :-)
RA may have been setting up the structure for developing the players through the academies, unfortunately this will have no relevance to Englands AI's this year.
Enland are short of quality front rows, and apart from a few exceptions (Matt Stevens possibly), Props and hookers don't devlop at the same rate as backs (The great new prop Andy Sheridan was 25 before his first cap), and are not anywhere near where they need to be to play in and International side when they finish in the academy structure. There needs to be a follow up to continue to develop these players and if this means supoorting them in a "non-pro" or "semi-pro" league so they play regularly and don't warm te bench than thats is what the RFU and RA needs to do.
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I agree with bobbybroom and number8fwd that the indentification of talent is flawed. Although some mentioned about the county set ups most of the players in the U18s and U20s will have come via the public schools sector and placed into county squads over and above club players. I have no idea where Courtney Lawes went to school but would be surprised if he went to a local 'comp' in Northampton.
Regarding the Championship.. This needs to be a fully professional league with funding from the RFU. Most premiership academies receive more from the RFU than a team in the Championship, yet most of the senior academy players end up playing in the Championship to improve their game. If not properly funded soon there will not even be Championship teams for that development to take place. Not saying I agree with academy players from prem sides playing at this level as they have no commitment to that club or the regular players, and it hinders the opportunites afforded to young players coming through the Championship teams ranks.
However that is the way it is - so lets give the Championship proper funding!
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"And are England a better team now than when they sacked Ashton (who'd taken them to a WC final)?"
The autumn internationals will give us an indicator. However, I'd say we were improving under Ashton who was just starting to get his own team together - the final display against Ireland was great and on a par with anything of MJ's tenure.
What is certain is that England have worked hard to get the press back on their side and that is half the battle at least.
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Mr Andrew lacked the courage to be acccountable as "coach" and in the conservative and safe style of his playing days chooses a well paid position unlikely to be lost because of results. His treatment of Brian Ashton was shabby and Martin Johnson has no pedigree as a coach. Dull, dull, dull and what a contrast to the genius of Woodward the antithesis of a figure like Andrew. Mediocrity rules and only when the odd brilliant maverick like Woodward or Ramsey in football's case get through the stodgy conservatism and self-interest of English sport's visionless hierarchies do we win anything.....so predictable.
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Many people look to Woodward as the most exciting and visionary team manager we had, though it was interesting to see what McGeechan had to say about Clive Woodward:
"He (Woodward) was always splendidly efficient and clever but perhaps not as emotional as some of us," McGeechan remembers. "He lacked the personal touch. It was all a bit clinical, even antiseptic." From the previous blog.
Maybe it is all about structure - get the right management, right coaching team and create a simple game plan then build the team within this. If Andrew is succesful with resolving the wider issues in English rugby (coaching youngsters, club vs country issues, number of games/enforced rest periods, coaching structure around Johnson) and gives the right platform then maybe England will improve beyong second place in 6 Nations and losing world-cup finalists.
In football, Keegan was emotional, his teams were inspiring and played attractive football. Key point though, they never won anything. South Africa are getting panned for hoofing the ball and feeding off the scraps - but they're winning and i've not met a South African who's too bothered.
Rob Andrew? He's been in the job long enough now, with his preferred coaching team, and a couple of years working on the younger members of the England team. Proof in pudding time for him. I'm 100% behind Andrew and Johnson until the dust settles after the upcoming 6 Nations. Let's see what happens and then we can judge fairly.
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