Why all six nations should back England (419)
- 16 Oct 07, 03:29 PM
I know, I know, it might seem a crazy idea, but I’d like all Scots, Welsh, Irish, French and Italians to support England in the rugby World Cup final. What do you think?
Aaargh, stop throwing bricks at me and let me put forward my logic.
You see, when I was a wee boy growing up in Borneo, the UK seemed a long way away. But it also struck me that all of us in the Northern Hemisphere are quite like each other. For instance, you can’t say that someone a mile north of the Scottish border with England is markedly different from someone a mile south of it.
People living a mile apart along the border between England and Wales must be similar. Or at least they must have more similarities than differences.
I am just back from Shanghai and I have more in common with the English than I do with the Chinese.
And, if I am perfectly honest, I am quite proud that England are in the final because it gives our Six Nations right here, ladies and gentlemen, in the Northern Hemisphere, some more credibility.
Now I know that there have been some skirmishes along our borders over the years. I know that a few Scots walked down to Derby doing a fair bit of damage three hundred years ago. I know we, the Scots, ganged up against the English in a thing called the “Auld Alliance” for a bit of a laugh. I know that the English can be bumptious like no other nation on Earth. And they huff a bit too much when they are beaten.
But the truth is I am fairly pleased that my near neighbours are in the final. After all, no matter what happens, they should be better winners or losers than the rather pathetic All Blacks.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Oh dear, I hope I can keep this up for eight minutes.
John Beattie is a former Scotland international who hosts radio and TV programmes for BBC Scotland.
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Eight minutes or eighty minutes? And surely at least 5 days?
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i think they should back us as northern hemisphere pride. i also think they backe us as most of them are thank to the english aswel as australia they wouldnt no how to play rugby if it wasnt for us.
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As an Englishman now living in France and before that 25 years in Biggar ,Scotland.I have watched and "listened" to John Beattie's "take" on rugby matters many times. Duh! I just DO NOT believe this remarkable volte face.
Come on John admit it!You really do want the Boks to win don't you? And preferably by a big big score?
Chuckle.
'awra best eh?
Keith Pine
Saissac.
SW.France
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Simple really, unless they absolutely crazy (doubtful) and do a 1991 and throw the ball about England will play tight, kick long for field position.
South Africa have 2 choices; they can try and match England at there game, leading to a tense final with England the favourites (unless they play like Argentina which will not happen), or, they can play an expansive game. If the latter tactics are the one chosen by Jake White and little Eddie, then i believe SA will have won by half-time. The intention has to be there from the off or again they will fail, it has to be all or nothing, with the single proviso that they do not attack from deep only beyond the opposition 10 yard line (easy pickings for JW otherwise).
As such if SA play it tight I'm going for England (serves SA right) and if SA decide to play rugby I'm with them - so is my money!
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You're off yer heid John!! Maybe your still jet lagged and it'll ware off after some sleep?!
I wouldnt mind England winning either, if we wouldn't have to be constantly subjected to it every time rugby is played for months or years to come.
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Being a fellow Scot I can whole heartedly say that there is no chance that I am going to be singing 'Swing Low' for 8 seconds, let alone eight or eighty minutes. I've just bought my South Africa shirt a second ago too! Go BOKS BOKS BOKS!
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well said it would be good if the home nations got behind england as we are all on the same island, just divided by some lines on the map.
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I thought about this yesterday on my way to the shops. The question "Could I support England?" went through my head. The answer was simple, nope! It's etched in my blood as a Welshman, I just cannot support them!
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I must say i have to agree, the 6 Nations is all about the rivalries between the home nations and who is top dog, but truth be told i'd root for any of the Northern Hemisphere teams over the arrogance of the SH.
To see both Australia and NZ go down to Northern Hemisphere opposition should have shown that the NH has more heart than it was being given credit for early on in the tournament. It should also have shown that the north can bridge the supposed void between north and south when it matters most.
Here's to 2011 and seeing all the home nations filling the semi-final berths (unlikely i know)
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An excellent point John, and an extremely brave one to make. But as a Scotsman I will be backing the Boks for two reasons, one major and the other minor:
(i) Major - I prefer the rugby that South Africa play. I like the fact that they are excellent around the breakdown, have great runners (Habana in particular) and have fantastic basics. I watched the English game against France and have to say I saw two quite nervous sides afraid to try any flowing rugby.
(ii) The second is that I'm not sure I can take another four years of England being world champions. Just having listened to Greenwood's commentary in the SA v Argentina match was enough to put me off to a large extent.
I am aware this is tarring a lot of fantastic english supporters with the same brush, and I apologise for it. Can't help how you feel I suppose.
I am certainly not saying that if Scotland were in your position we would crow any less. But then again I am not asking any other nation to support Scotland.
So I will say go on the Boks, I hope you win - but above, I hope it is a good game of rugby.
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What a nonsensical idea!
I would only support those I am related to. Therefore, Wales first, Scotland or Ireland second. If none of the above are playing I just try and enjoy the game.
I don't 'hate' nor wish 'any other' team to beat England. That would be just as nonsensical a thing as John Beattie's idea.
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Although the sentiments are fine I remember being in St Etienne and also Paris where English supporters were supporting Portugal and Argentina agaisnt Scotland so I don't see why I should support England. All I will say is that may the best team win.
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I, from Wales, will back them!
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Nice idea. Anything else you'd like whilst you're at it? World peace? A cure for the common cold?
Though I do suspect rather more people think the way you suggest than is popularly believed.
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Rather than the 'home' nations getting behind us, it will be the French (and maybe the Italians) that we'll most likely have 'on our side'.
I've yet to meet any Welsh or Scotsman that isn't anti-English in every way - not just sport, but in all aspects of life.(There obviously are some - I just haven't met 'em) Funny, then, that the Irish, who have more recent reasons to be anti-English, seem to acknowledge that England have done well to get to the final, and whilst they won't be shouting for us, won't cheer the Saffers either.
As to your point about being a mile or so from any border can't make people so different - I have to disagree - I'm a Yorkshireman !
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NO way. Generally we supported England in 2003 - partly because they deserved it and also becuase we had to breack SH dominance. If it were Wales or Scotland or France then no doubt I would be behind themn one hundred percent.
I just can't bear to hear the crowing for another four years about how England are world champions - particualrly when it comers to picking a Lions team.
Also but most importantly SA are a good team who play as near to Total Rugby as anyone else. Their star player is not from the Afrikaaner heartland and is a township hero - if SA win Bryan Habana's name will be etched on SA sporting lore forever and hopefully boys in the townships will be picking up oval balls and running instead of kicking round ones.
GO BOKKE
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Beattie you are right. But where is the fun when you can't slag off england when they get beat?
Plus, imagine all that gloating you will get?
Senario: Some english guy who have never played or watched rugby with interest lecturing die hard rugby fans north of the border about how rugby should be played!!! Its the most annoying thing in the world.
But in saying that, good luck to england and if you do win, don't sing that swing low sweet chariot song. It has nothing to do with english rugby.
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Thanks John, but no thanks. There was a time when we English would offer our unquestioned support to all of the home nations teams including Scotland against whoever they were playing, as long as it wasn't us. Not any more. Your endless sniping at us, and your loathsome, chippy and indiscriminate tendency in all sports to support whoever we are up against (even Argentina for lord's sake) has done for that old goodwill. Keep your half-hearted support, we don't need it or want it. Go on, shout for South Africa, you know you want to, you wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie.
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comments like the one above are the exact reason why the celtic nations do not support england.i am from n.ireland and will definatley be cheerin on the not so self righteous south africans!!
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As a welshman I had difficulty cheering for Les Blancs against Les Bleus in the semi, despite declaring my support for them before the game. I just couldn't do it. There was a mental block.
However, against the Saffers I will have no such block.
Er... come on... er... England!
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You must be mad,i had no problem in supporting the english when they were never likely to win the WC.
But the fear of them actually winning it a makes me shudder.england are a very poor rugby nation at the minute and it would be a crime against the game if they ground out a victory.It reminds me very much of Peter Ebdon vs Ronny o sullivan in the world final.I havent watched a game since!
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It's not the prospect of England being bad losers that bothers me. It's them being guaranteed bad winners that does it.
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I agree with john! for the following reasons national rivalry notwithstanding first and foremost even with my surname I am a yorkshireman then I am an Englishman, then I am Brittish after that i am a European followed by a northern hemisphere resident. My sporting allegience follows the same route and even in football my heroes were scottish ( Denis Law) irish albe it Northern ( Georgie) rugby heroes have included G.O E probably the best scrum half ever to play the game and barry john. I think of myself as a sports fan and admire quality where ever it was born. But just this once I am a biggotted England fan just because this final could never have happened and we had no reason or right to expect it so please give us our day in the sun. Remember that this also gives Ireland , Scotland and wales a chance to humble the world cup holders? finalists again come the 6 nations
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The sentiments are spot on. Some 'fans' may have supported the opponents of other 6N teams but they are definately in the minority. I wouldn't expect any of them to don England shirts but at least support their fellow Brits. Come the next Lions tour we'll be mates again (hopefully). Many England fans were unbearably gloating after the last WC but maybe some of that was due to the vitriol directed at the England team by fellow Brits. All of us are passionate about our teams and I still feel for every Welsh fan (less the one I met in Paris on Saturday who kept trying to set fire to my England shirt) but surely there is room to encourage the 'home' team.
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no 2 scott absolutely appalling comment. the "colonial subjects" wouldnt know how to play rugby id it wasnt for us- I suppose youre also going to say, they wpuld be heathens if it wasnt for us as well. i'm irish and supporting england because i do appreciate and like the majority of english fans. however comments like yours means that most people will be anyone but england and not because we have a problem. the colonial mindset is long over buddy. australia might be still technically part of england but next election, howard will be out and there will be another referendum on whether or not to become a republic.
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I cannot see the Celtic nations supporting England. They are too narrow minded to do that and the vitriol will spew forth irrespective of the result on Saturday - bile if we win and mockery of we lose. It is in their Genes and their mindset is such that they are compelled to hate England. it is "what they do!" As an Englishman I would rather have support from the French even any of the whinging SH countries than the Celtic nations to be frank.
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There appears to be a hugely stubborn myth regarding home nations support. True there is massive rivalry when any of us play England, but that's to be expected given their size, and who doesn't enjoy those games? It is also true there may be a few too many glory-only fans in England, whom only seem to appear in the pubs when a whiff of success is in the air. But when all is said and done I am both Welsh and, most importantly in this case, British. I will be supporting England, with any luck all the way to lifting that golden trophy. And hopefully avoiding more airborn alcohol than I managed on Saturday. I can confirm that Strongbow and black is NOT easy to get out of a white shirt...
Northern Hemisphere Unite! Hands in boys! Gooooooooooo TEAM!
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this is total filler! a handful of ill-presented arguments against a tired (albeit enduringly controversial) question of old.
"People living a mile apart along the border between England and Wales must be similar." the guy has obviously researched his subject exhaustively.
pathetic!
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Clark Edgar, I think you'll find the reason most English people supported the likes of Portugal and Argentina is nothing to do with disliking the Scots, but support for the underdog (Portugal) and a team that deserves far more recognition and support (Argentina). It's something that has characterised this tournament - huge support from neutrals for the "minnows" and the teams outside the established tri-nations and 6-nations sides.
In the games England had against Tonga and Samoa, I'd expect most neutrals were supporting the pacific islanders (hell, I'd have been happy to see Tonga win, along with Fiji they lit up the tournament). If Scotland were playing in the final against SA (or one of the other tri-nations teams, or France), my support would be firmly with Scotland.
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Good on you Mr Beattie. What about the British love of the underdog, surely us english rate as that in this game, if you believe all the South Africans you speak to. Everyone get behind the team and, win or lose, enjoy the third half!!
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I'm English, and support every 6-nation team, as long as they are playing anyone except England!
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We English are so used to not having the support of any of our Near Neighbours, that to receive your support seems like you wish to put a jinx on us! Keep putting us down, we will rise above it, and, if (fingers and toes crossed), we win it we can rightly rub noses in it as we have done for the last 4 years! If you need any incentive, I (and many other Englishmen) have dutifully cheered on Argentina (twice) and Fiji when it counted!
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what? maybe i'd support England in football....but i don't see why Celtic countries should support England in rugby!! I'd reconsider if they didn't gloat so much. Swing low sweet chariot... atleast other countries have more songs to sing and not just when they are winning.
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I'm english, with one northern irish parent (and in the history books relatives from most of the british isles). it annoys me when i see/hear or read about the english, scots, welsh or irish cheering on a team OTHER than a home nations side when they're playing. if it were england playing another home nation, id obviously be behind england, but otherwise it would be the home nation all the way. I know there are plenty of englishman who do it, and they annoy the hell out of me too. We should be all in it together! we support different teams, but south africa versus Scotland/Wales/Ireland in the final..., and it would definitely not be the boks id be supporting. COME ON THE HOME NATIONS!
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As an Englishman living in wales, I always want to see wales lose due to the constant abuse about being english, even before I knew what rugby was. I always want scotland to win as thats where my family name comes from. Always like to see a NH tam beat a SH (apart from wales). Hatred beget hatred, hate me because I'm english and I'll hate you back.
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I hear that Oxfam shops across Scotland have been inundated with unwanted Australia and France rugby shirts - the only flaws being chip-shaped grease marks to the shoulder.
Seriously though, I think rugby fans across the British Isles should support any of the home teams against SH opposition. I was gutted to see Scotland go out to Argentina and to see Ireland fail to live up to their undoubted potential.
COME ON ENGLAND - one more heroic slog away from glory!
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I was watching a video tape of the 1991 final with the build up to the match. I wish someone could tell me the background music (in the build up "bit"), it was a guitar solo playing (sounded like Dire Straits) when Guscott scored a great try against the Italians and Deano was dropped/injured. Anyone? BAck to the point - during the build up there was a brief interview with Brian Moore and he said "Nobody likes us and we don't care". True then and still true today...we don't care if the celts or any other nation supports us or not!
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I'm sure that all right minded people would agree that:
The Rules of Support (Subsection: Rugby) are:
(1) Nation of Birth or nation of father's birth of too young to decide otherwise.
(2) Any Northern Hemisphere Team that your NH friends are not banging on about winning the 6 Nations/World Cup (delete as applicable)
(3) Any Northern Hemisphere Team bar England
(4) Any Northern Hemisphere Team left (England)
(5) Argentina
(6) Any SH team excluded from the Tri-Nations
(7) South Africa
(8) The Ref
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I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than see England win the RWC and have to put up with another 4 years of gloating. Would they support Wales? would they hell
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Support England - you asking asking a Welshman to support England ? You cannot be serious !!! Come on the Boks.
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I'll be hoping (as a Wales supporter) England win, as they are British after all.
Should they win, however, I won't be looking forward to every commentator prefixing or suffixing 'England' with 'world champions' every time they say England for the next 4 years though!!
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As an Englishman I totally agree with the comments about the TV commentary! ...listening to Greenwood and the rest blathering on about England whilst SA and Argentina were playing was totally disrespectful and p!ss irritating!
God I hate ITV!
...luckily I will not be troubled by the commentary this weekend as I will be in the stadium itself!
Allez les Blancs!
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I’m annoyed that the English football mentality is permeating into Union - for example last weekend more people than normal in the pub boo-ed the French national anthem. But we’re not all like that.
I’m an England supporter - but I’m British, and yes I’d also support France if we'd lost last weekend (and Italy or Romania etc) because my girlfriends from Durban.
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As a Scot, I'm actually not sure if I am 'supporting' either team. I just want to see a good, exciting game of rugby. I hope both sides don't resort to a tight, dull, 10 man game......
May the best team win!
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I am Welsh and passionate about Welsh rugby but will still be supporting England and hoping they can do it.
This is not about local geographic politics, this is about North versus South. Northern Hemisphere versus Southern Hemisphere.
Put the local rivalries aside for the world cup final and cheer on England.
We have surely had enough of the Southern Hemisphere nations attacking the poor teams up north so lets hope England put South Africa in their place.
I also hope they use some width and play some Rugby instead of playing a tight game though!
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Sorry John get your tongue out of your cheek and be honest!
It's not only about the historical England, Scotland rivalry, the fact is that if we are to support a team who plays in the "fashion" of England then rugby will die a slow and painful death.
I support the team that has an expansive exciting game so go Boks stick it up them!
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If it was'nt for the following then perhaps... however I see no chance of this changing - specifially -
1. The constant and over whelming bias of coverage around England throughout the RWC...more commentators had more airtime than the others put together...
2. Greenwood's ramblings throughout the Arg - SA game on - what else but England (the game was a lot better with the sound off...)
3.Being constantly asked(challenged by "fans" who demand to know whether I will be supporting England...(I even saw TV reporters asking MP's this..) is this "support" necessary to ensure sucess ??? being told how "England would support any other home nation..." what rot I have never seen evidence of this...more the opposite - I support my team and no one else's - it's really that simple...to be asked aor expected to support England or anyone else's is'nt going to happen
4.England as underdogs ?? biggest player base, most money, resources etc..what a fable....they should be the best given the depth and resources they have.....
All said and done I can state my admiration at the team's capability to bounce back however and I would never boo or disrespect their anthem...pity I recall a whole set of white shirted "fans" doing worse...charming..not !
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I have enormous regard for many, perhaps even most, of the English players but the thought of having to listen to Brian Moore, Matt Dawson et al for another four years has me without doubt backing the 'boks. When will these 'pundits' realise that they, not the English team, are the reason that almost the entire rugby playing world will be cheering for South Africa on Saturday - or for that matter whomever is playing England, whenever and wherever.
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people who say "oh no i couldnt bare to be subjected to englands gloating for another four years.."
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? are you stupid? Lets get completely ludicrous for a second now and imagine wales won the world cup in 2003, and were to do so again this year - harry potter stuff.
Try and imagine for a second how intolerable the welsh would be, they were bad enough after the 6 nations triumph. BUT i am not criticising this, it is entirely NORMAL.
For a team like england to win two world cups successively, against the natural physical, athletic and skilled brilliance of the SH teams as well as Ireland, argentina etc, would be an amazing achivement, as it would be for ireland, scotland, wales, france WHOEVER!
How on earth could you knock someone for being completely elated ...world champions 03 and finalists 07...with "one of the most boring / worst / teams in history"
IF england were to win on saturday - a big IF, you see in england we are realistic and not arrogant, take note SH teams - we would go absolutely mental, and would be talking about it for the next for years, DUH!!!!
if you dont like it..."am i bovvad?" NO.
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Fair play to all you also running celtic nations. There is no way I would be cheering any of you lot on if you had made it to the final.
Better look next time!
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Can we not just cancel saturdays game and award the cup to the winners of France v Argentina? I just couldn't cheer for the arrogant South Africans and the English are... well, the English. Much better our friends France or the hard playing Pumas took the trophy.
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M.Spence obviously didn't listen to the BBC news on Sunday then, when it reported English fans draped in Argentinian flags supporting them against SA, wanting to play the "weaker" team in the final. We remember what happened two decades ago too, we were there with you. Must be OK if you do it yourselves, although contrary to popular belief not all other "Celtic" nations are anti-English or support whoever your playing, meet some better people.
The others just get annoyed when you bang on about it forever more afterwards, like we would if we won too, only you don't get BBC Scotland down here, unlike us who have to listen to "impartial" BBC coverage back in Scotland!!!
Good luck to England in the final btw
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We English know that all you Celts are totally impartial. You don't care who beats England and that's fine. You can share in our reflected glory if you need to or rejoice in our failures if that's how you are. We share one common trait with all our celtic cousins. We're great in ones but when we gather in groups, we're insufferable.
Roll on Saturday!
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As a Scot who has lived in the London area for nearly 30 years I have constantly been asked this week by my English colleagues and friends who I will be supporting on Saturday.
My answer has been that I support British athletes in all sports - I cheered when England won the Ashes, I will be hoping Lewis Hamilton wins on Sunday, I was as gutted as anyone when Paula Radcliffe had to retire from the Athens marathon. I support British athletes in all world championships, Olympics etc. EXCEPT I cannot bring myself to support England at either rugby or football.
And the main reason is typified by the completely unprofessional gloating that masqueraded as commentary from Will Greenwood during Sundays game (and also Brian Moore when he is on the BBC). If you want a lesson in professional, unbiased commentary, and a bit of humility as well, then try listening to some old Bill McLaren.
I will be supporting the South Africans on Saturday, because as many people here have said they play the more expansive and better rugby - and England can only win ugly.
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The Sweaties have got their own Parliament The Welsh have thier assembly The Irish have their government N Ireland should vote on what they want if a united Ireland so be it but give the English our independance from you lot you would never agree who would prop you up them.. Ungrateful spongers the lot of you I am English and would not support Ireland Scotland or Wales at tiddlywinks.. by the way we just beat France in the Final and are now the Conker World Champs lets see if we cant do the double this weekend Anglo Saxons rule...
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Well, this posting certainly proves that many Brits are nuts.
I hate small minded nutters, I hate when one country thinks it is above others, I hate the fact that we hate each other because someone drew a line on the ground and called it a border all those years ago.
My grandmother happened to be South African, other relatives were English, my father's folks came from Northern Ireland, I was christened by a part Danish and part North American native minister in the jungle of Borneo, and I have English friends.
Maybe I am jetlagged. I can see that Scots wind up the English and vice versa. When I played for Scotland perhaps there was an extra incentive, but that was all about history and the big neighbour, not for any real hate.
So for the sake of Northern Hemisphere rugby I want England to do well.
And as I said earlier I hope that if they win they do so with good grace, and if they lose I hope they do that with dignity.
And if you know me you will know that if I am in a minority then, frankly, I don't care.
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well it doesnt matter to any of us what you guys are shouting for really. those 22 in the white shirts will know all of us lucky enough to be born from the greatest nation will be behind them. quite frankly we know that noone outside would have even thought we would be in this position and frankly we dont care much either. so just go on, pull on your green shirts, as im sure you all have been pulling on your gold and pulling on your blue shirts so far and it hasnt affected us at all- why break a habbit. come on England!
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What exactly are you implying Dickie? That it's a shame you didn't wipe us all out because we don't support you because you're 'closest'?
That's not the most compelling argument ever. You must be a whizz with the ladies.
Come on South Africa
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Im a Scot iving in England and I cant say as I have witnessed the gloating behaviour indicated in these posts. Every game I have been to the England fans have been quite open and honest about their teams chances, and have celebrated their victories and discussed their losses. They want to see good rugby, and they want their team to win. England are winning at the moment, and I say good luck to them. They have my support. If they beat South Africa in the final, they will have deserved it, and it will be a vindication of how they play. With heart, determination and a will to win. Fancy rubgy is fine if it wins games otherwise, it is just showing off. Scotlands decision to field an understrength team against the All Blacks was one of the lowest points of the World Cup, for me. As was their performance against Argentina, where they lacked courage. Wales and Ireland were well beaten, and France went down to England. England is there by rights, and they will fight to win. Rather than always critising Ugly, Boring rugby, we should celebrate a team, and a country, that has an ethos and a history of victory, at all costs. If each home nation team in the RWC played with the same conviction, they wouldn't need to decide whether to support England or not.
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If England are playing no matter what the sport I'm English if any of the other Home Nations are playing if not against England I am what it says on my passport BRITISH and proud. it's now Britain against South Africa. My dearest wish is for Scotland and England to qualify for the Soccer European championship Finals and to meet in the Final. Then I am English again
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I'll be supporting whichever team is playing the better rugby on the night. That's what it all comes down to, right?
That said... I'm a Welshman who was never particularly anti-English, at least until I came to England for university and was overwhelmed by the petty, unimaginative bigotry I encountered. The anti-English sentiment grew as a reaction to that. *shrug*
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Welsh, Scots and Irish are all suffering from Small country Syndrome. The truth of the matter is that should it be one of your nations in the final against a Southern Hemisphere side then Englishmen would certainly have their voices behind you.
Perhaps you should drop your overinflated egos for at least one day, refrain from booing the national anthem (happened in Cardiff last weekend - Welshmen behaving like chavvy football fans)and support your neighbours for just 80 mins as we become the first side to retain the Rugby World Cup.
Come on the Lads!
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I'm a passionate Wales supporter but have always been happy to support the British teams whenever they play. As you rightly point out, it is far easier to feel that I have something in common with English, Scottish and Irish fans than I do with, say, France or South Africa.
I would hope that others feel the same.
But I've still never heard a single Englishman shouting for Wales and the cheer at the final whistle in the pub in Oxford where I watched the Fiji game was deafening!
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I, even as a welshman, would happily support England, if they played exciting rugby. Watching England is like watching paint dry, I have barely seen one backs move in the tournament. England are very lucky to be where they are, and to be honest do not deserve to be there any more than france and australia.
(please englishman, don't kill me)
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I think some people,mainly the welsh 4get that we are all british..like it or not.Its nice to have rivalry when we play eachother but come on..most english support Scotland/Irl and wales when they play.I think it comes down to they hate it more that England always progress further in most competitions in any sport that any other british nationality,and therefore hate us through spite rather than support us.
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It is absurd to be told 'it would be best to support England', a strange kind of hoisting morality and pressure on the other home nations. Must get one thing straight: it's every Irishman, Welshman, Scotsman's damn right and spirit to support whoever England may be playing. One of the reasons why the English side and fans are so unpopular is this kind of roundabout blackmail order, trying to bluff people into believeing England's recent grinding victories are a 'good thing'. England never lose well themselves and repeatedly slur the achievements of other sides, so why should there be any difference when the boot's on the other foot? What was so brilliant about the last few years was the lack of arrogance and fatuous delusion; it had been neatly packed away, simply because England had nothing to champion in themselves after dismal performances in the Six Nations.
More importantly it would be tragic not only to support England but to support their style. Here, it doesn't matter who they are: it's banal to watch. The same would be said of any other nation, and it would be spurious to suggest otherwise. It's a defeat for Union and what first attracted so many to the game in the first place. My own experience - along with so some others it seems - was watching rugby matches with pace and flair, great tries, Blanco, Lomu, Galthie, Williams, Brooke, Horan, O'Driscoll. I have to say to the non-entities prattling on about the importance of 'winning' and substance over style, and so-called 'passion, bulldog spirit', that I first loved this game when it was played the OPPOSITE way to those values and tactics now being trumpeted by England. Very few began playing and watching this game to see that kind of suffocation. You would be a moron and devoid of talent if you did.
So after that ask why the other five nations should back England. There's no case for it.
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It all comes down to small men and their chips. Chips on the shoulders of the fellow home nations. You will struggle to find an Englishman who wouldn't support any of the Celtic nations in a RWC final but the reverse simply isn't true. One reason - SMALL MAN/NATION syndrome. You should all be proud of being part of great nations infinitessimaly more personal than my ragged nation (England), but your small man/nation syndrome will not let you. Do you not think we would secretly like to be part of the Welsh/Scottish or Irish "clubs"?? We are born into our nations and just get on with it
You lot need to get over it - you might feel better for it!Anger/bitterness are difficult emotions to suppress!
PS Pragmatist says SA deserve to win on overall quality of rugby - I agree with Dick Best who suggests we have papered over the cracks
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Honesty call here for me as a Welshman.
Football world cup, I support England 100% of the time (they're never likely to play Wales in a major final!)
Cricket, I support England.
Athletics, I support all English/British athletes.
Rugby? I just can't. I've met too many english rugby amateurs jumping on the band waggon (sorry to all you real english rugby boys out there).
Its good fun to have a bit of banter, isn't it? There, my honest view.
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As a Scot living in England I will say fair play to all England supporters if, having beaten Australia, France and South Africa, they are World Champions again.
However do not expect me to support them for reasons of geography or some sort of misplaced loyalty to an international championship when I find the rugby tedious in the extreme. I would prefer to see the side playing open running flair rugby as World Champions. England are not going to do that on Saturday.
If I was an England forward I'd be wondering who this Jonny is that's getting all the plaudits after they have ensured progress by destroying both the Aussies and the French up front. Good luck England but please don't expect support.
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After the Falklands I never thought that I would cheer the Argies on at anything but goodness did I want them to do the French in France in the opening game.
England don't need any begrudging support from anybody, there will be plenty of English support in Paris to contribute to the pressure, like the other “certainties” have suffered, the boks will also experience. I honestly believe that England will do it! COME ON!
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Big up Chris Philips,
Who gives a stuff whst the other whingeing NH nations think. The very thought that one of THEM could ever come remotely close to winning a WC is laughable. They win the odd six nations and think they are world beaters.
I served in the BRITISH army with Jocks, Taffy's and Paddy's and whilst there was rivalry there was alwas comaradery when it came to facing other nations. Not so now, I've watched it deteriorate with every nation being to blame, sad but so be it.
Put up the borders and stuff em.
If England win or lose I'll still be sticking it to them for the next four years.
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Amazing how all these Celts expect the English to behave better than they do.
As Nicky Campbell once put it to a fellow Scot about a different World Cup - don't blame the English for talking about 1966 (or 2003) when your viewpoint is embedded in the 15th century and before.
As a proud Englishman I always support the teams of the British Isles against other teams whatever the sport - and am frankly bemused by the childish antipathy by so many from the Celtic fringe.
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England's transformation has been primarily due to a previously lacklustre pack mutating overnight into a starving hungry pack of killer wolves. But the Boks are as tough as it comes and I doubt that we'll be able to bully them as we did against Australia and France in the 2nd half. I reckon both teams will win approx 50% of the ball on Saturday. But who will make the best use of the ball? Eng still seem unable to carve teams up in the backs and score tries, apart from the odd, individual piece of brilliance usually from Robinson or Sackey. I think it would be a massive bonus for Eng if Hipkiss starts. SA have backs who can score tries from anywhere. Habana is terrifying to behold - (as an Eng supporter). He is a sensational player going forward and if SA find space and get the ball to him, he could beat Eng on his own. I would love to see Eng chuck the ball around and score magical tries from every corner of the park - but we'll need to give Brian Ashton another year to develop the backs. In this match Eng can only win one way, ie throttle the Boks up front, frustrate them, tackle them to death, pin them inside their own half with an accurate kicking game, make very few mistakes and JW kicks his penalties. Somehow this Eng team, with next to no preparation, (thanks to the INFURIATING + RIDICULOUS decision to keep Andy Robinson on for at least 6 months too long), full of grandads and average players will win by 3 points in a titanic bruiser. Why? Because 1. They cannot even believe that they are in the World Cup Final. This is a dream come true for them. An underdogs shot at the title. Couldn't be a better situation for them and they know it. 2. Over the past 4 years they have sunk so low, been so humiliated and embarrassed, faced so much adversity and been so deeply hurt that as a team they NOW feel as though they are rising as one from the ashes. All the pain of the last 4 years will come out in this one match, they will die on the pitch for their brothers and this belief will PROBABLY JUST pull them through by the odd point or two. It's their mentality + belief on the day that will win it for them, not their slightly above-average ability.
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I am English...my wife Irish...my descendants Welsh ( My Grandfather played for Wales after the war ).
I will always supports Northern hemisphere teams...yes even Scotland!
but it does seem deep-rooted that non-English will always always support the other side. It is a shame but i dont think it will ever change, basically because we are a larger part of the Isles and have the "Big Brother" syndrome over the rest.
As I say its a shame because overall we are nice people really!
Also when I finally have my son ( I have 3 girls who have no interest in Rugby) who will he play for? England, Ireland or Wales?...and do you know what.. I wouldnt care who he played for!
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I just want a cracking game of rugby.
My fathers italian, my grandparents are french, but I was born and raised in Wales.
I am a welshman who loves his rugby. I love my country as well. Whilst I won't be supporting England or South Africa, I won't be hating them either.
(something, deep, deep inside of me does want the NH side to win though........ very very deep inside of me)
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as a welshman, I will not be supporting england for one simple reason, the very same reason that you wont see a liverpool fan supporting everton, or a man city fan supporting man u, or any gloucester/bristol/bath fans supporting eachother! its good old fashioned sporting rivalry and bragging rights!
I dont hate the english, Im marrying one, my family tree encapsulates all of the british isles, but my alliegance is with wales. and being a proud welsh man is nothing to do with hating england, england doesnt even come into it so why am i expected to support them?!
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Being a proud Welshman i found it difficult to give my support to the enemy from over the bridge,but having met my fiance following an expedition into enemy territory i am now able to waver,dont get me wrong i wont be singing about chariots but come on England do it for the northern hemisphere and the six nations championship.P.S. Best of luck Jake White in your new role as Welsh rugby coach!! Heres hoping!
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I don't mind if you celtic folk support South Africa, but if you're going to pray for us to get beaten then don't whine about us English talking about it for the next 4 years if we win.
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The whole premise here is flawed; one cannot just *choose* to support a team anymore than one can will oneself to love a woman or like a particular type of cheese.
Beattie may have decided that he supports the England rugby team, and he has come up with a long-winded rationalization of why. However, such a decision is made emotionally not rationally.
I do not support England at anything and never will. As a Welshman, I support anyone opposing England in all sports and most wars. I have no idea whether I *should* or not; the fact is that I do and no amount of logical evaluation will change that view.
My loathing for the English nation does not extend to individuals. I am often happy to see English individuals do well - for instance, I support Ricky Hatton. But put if you stick an England shirt on it I'll wish it the worst.
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Please stop having a go at post no. 2. He is spot on. "Colonial" is an old word but "Commonwealth" is not. Anyone who goes to a golf club in India, a hotel in Singapore or a museum in any Australian city will see that the Empire is not gone, it has just changed it's name. She is the Queen of England & the Commonwealth remember.
Anyone of the number of people who are moaning about England crowing for another four years are just jealous. I have a welsh mate who told me that at 10:00pm on the night that Wales were beaten by Fiji S4C(welsh satellite channel) were showing highlights of the 2005 grand slam & great tries from the 70's! England have worn the world champions tag with pride and gone quietly about the business of defending it. Wether we win or lose any fan, no matter what country, will have to admit that England have risen to the occasion, not bottled it as have other "superior" nations. Wales deserved to get beat by Fiji as they had no game plan to beat them. To beat Pacific Islanders you keep it simple and structured, Wales wanted to run it from their own 22 against the best 7's players in the world ! To be honest if Scot's, Irish, Welsh or whoever can't get behind England on Saturday I don't care. We have enough genuine fans who appreciate the efforts of the current players no matter what the score and don't need to harp on about legends from 30 odd years ago. The Empire is alive and well and if it wasn't for the oil fields off Aberdeen or the now empty coal mines in the valleys, we would have let Scotland and Wales have their independence long ago. At least the Irish give a good welcome even if they don't like you! England will play their way, give 100% and respect the opposition players and fans at the end. The score doesn't matter, all you whingers on this blog make me even more thankful I am English. God Bless.
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I don't think this supporting/not supporting is really anything worth worrying about though. It's sport for heaven's sake, not life or death.
We live in the same country, on the same island (mostly) and we share a common outlook towards most things. Sure, when it comes to sporting events we'll tease each other, we'll wind each other up, hell, sometimes we'll even enjoy the discomfort of our fellow Britons.
But we know we are all on the same side when it comes to anything crucual. Sports events where the constituent countries play separately are akin to a family argument, nothing more.
I'd love to see all Scots, Welsh and Irish backing England, but it isn't going to happen. Nor is it going to happen that all English would support one of the other nations if they were in the final, and very often for the same reasons. I can well imagine an Englishman saying that he couldn't possibly support Wales in a World Cup Final because they would be unbearable for the next four years if they won it. And of course they would be, just as England have been.
It's part of the nature of the peculiar combined country we are, full of petty jealousies and rivalries. That's not something for us to be ashamed about, regardless of how the media might view it, it's part of the rich tapestry of these islands.
If we didn't have that rivalry, we'd probably have to invent it.
Sure, there are some exceptions across all home nations where there is genuine antipathy, but for the most part it is given and accepted in good spirit. Rather than wailing about how appalling it is, take heart from a country that is sufficiently comfortable with itself to be able to bitch and moan at each other constantly without taking up arms against one another.
It's the beauty of being British, you know. And as an Englishman, may I say long may it continue!
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John
Good try but sounds like the idea was sunk by bigotry on all sides. Must admit that like several of the posters I used to support all the home nations in competitions when I was younger. The sheer hatred and venom, often accompanied with a distinct ignorance of actual history, has resulted in a lot of alienation. As such when a member of the other home nations is playing a foreign on it often depends on my mood and who's been saying what recently. [For instance the insults and abuse directed at both my team and nation on those blogs in previous weeks meant I wasn't totally shattered when the other home nations went out]. Intellectually I know that not all Scots, Welsh, Irish are ignorant bigots, and as this thread as shown some English can match them. However as one poster says hatred tends to breed if not hatred then at least a good measure of contempt and distain.
I’ll welcome support from any fans, of whatever nations, who will support the team, either in respect of the fighting spirit their shown or because they would prefer us to beat a SH nation and try and shut up the flood of comments about the superiority of the latter’s rugby. If other want to support SA because they think they play better rugby, that’s their choice. If they choose to do so because of their xenophobia then that’s no skin off my nose and there’s only one nation their actually disgracing. Similarly I wish the bigots from the English side would shut up and stop degrading England.
Steve
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As a Scot living in Ireland, I have supported England in both the 1/4 and semi-finals.
I was down the pub on Saturday and found some of the anti-English sentiment a little pathetic. However this weekend I will be backing South Africa - though this is only because I will win a few hundred euro if they win.
Usually I would back England against a southern hemisphere team
As to England not deserving to be in the final, you have to say they were the better team both this Saturday and last
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rite if any other of the 6 nations teams were in the final example scotland would the english support them i dnt think so !!! so i am goin for SOUTH AFRICA YOOOOOOOOOOO
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I hope that England get a good spanking not because I'm a Scot, but to shut Will Greenwoods gob.For the entire 80 mins of the SA V Argentina semi, he done nothing but talk about England. I thought he was watching the wrong match.Come on ye Boks.
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come on england- as an irish fan it's so annoying to see the anyone but england rubbish going on here. i/ve never seen such bigotry and small mindedness in my life. and as for comments about not being able to bear 4 more years of gloating- hello! if ireland won the wc we'd be celebrating and rubbing it in everyone's faces too! it's called being delighted out team won it- although not much chance of that happening anytime soon. and if england do win it again- all respect to them for being the 1st nation to win back to back wcs. sorry but english fans have every right to celebrate and "gloat" and the other moaning whingers should not be so hypocritical. if wales ireland or scotland won it, do ye honestly think ye wouldnt throw it in england's face all the time! get real. come on england!
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i have friends at college from all over the isles- ireland, france, england, wales and scotland. it doesnt boil down to hatred (with exception of ireland in some cases). the morning after of that performance that left england niled was one of the longest mornings- i lost count of how many people there was to say something! its the irish triple crown, or the calcutta cup- you know ou guys love to rub it in as much as you like- since 2003 we havent had any real chance to do so! but guess what people- england are back and still there!
and also it wasnt the pace of Habana or pieterson that beat england 36-0 it was the pace of du preez over perry at scrum half. gomersall is a different person and this time we have an outhalf- and a little confidence to...
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Do we want the other home nations to support us? I hear that Gordon Brown is now going to the final. Sounds like the kiss of death for England.
John
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Forget it! Nice thought but theres no way it'll happen and why should it. Its better that the whole world is against us. We used to have a saying at Raynes Park RFC - NO ONE LIKES us we dont care! It'll create a stronger resolve and keep the boys focused.....
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I'll be supporting South Africa, not because of the English team itself, but because of ITV's appallingly one eyed coverage. Will Greenwood was supposed to be commentating on the SA/Argentina semi and spent most of the match talking about England!The England players (and Martin Johnson in the studio) generally have to try and calm down the ITV interviewers and get them to talk sense. Its understandable to be excited, England have shown a huge amount of courage and guts to get to the final, but come on, a bit of sensible intelligent coverage would be welcome, a SA win in the final might just get them to do that!
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I'm a Scot living south of the border hoping that England don't win so i don't have to put up with the bragging of my friends.
When I asked my dad what he thought he wanted to support England but found that the press and not the England team put him off. The team are level headed, but recently the press had gone mad (it might just be the ITV coverage though!!)
After a week or so of the World Cup starting we were told the the SH teams were so far ahead of the 6 nations teams, they were playing a different style and tempo of rugby. BUT NZ are not all conquering and the Ausies have no pack.
Did I enjoy the 36-0 scoreline, yes, do I think it will happen again..no.
Will I support England? Ask me on Sunday....
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LLewellyn,
You would support those fighting against England in most wars? What about your countrymen fighting and dying beside them? Get a grip.
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I'm a proud Scot and i will be supporting England on Saturday. I supported them at the last World Cup and will do so again. They are the standard bearers for Northern Hemisphere Rugby
With all the Southern Hemisphere superiority complex going around it feels good that it's not an all Southern Hemisphere final. This proves that when it comes down to it the Northern Hemisphere sides have what it takes when the business end of the tournament comes around. There has only been one all Southern final and that was in 1995.
Still saying all that if South Africa do win i wouldn't mind too much either because i have a lot of love for that country and love the South African people.
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To post 51. I totally agree we Scots would be cock a hoop with delight and spend years going on about how we made it to a final never mind winning the thing!(If only that dream would come true) BUT we would do this within our own Scottish media, be that TV, radio, newspapers and wouldn't subject the rest of the British isles to it, unfortunately the Celts can't escape from English gloating as the media equate England as meaning Britain so the national broadcasters insist on shoving any England news down our throats. From a young age Scots children grow up being made to feel inferior to the English, as their national sports and news is rarely mentioned, never mind championed, tonight on Newsround a brief mention of Scotland have a football match tomorrow and then several minutes with footage of England training on a plastic pitch and their game in Russia!! Out of that feeling of 'its nae fair' comes the reason for not supporting England this is why most people don't want England TEAMS to do well. I love Paula Radcliffe and Seb Coe is my all time hero. Also I have never found English rugby entertaining (Scotland not that brilliant either over past few years but its my country and I love it!) and I do support SH teams as their style of rugby much more entertaining. And by the way why must we support another British team since when did that become the law?!
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As a Welshborn chap that moved to England when still young I can say that I developed a healthy attitiude to support Wales and anyone that played England.
However, nowdays I'm happy with watching good rugby and remain as neutral as possible when Wales are not playing. I'd have loved to have seen the Pumas win for the sake of rugby in the world (only after we were dumped out by Fiji mind!).
Lets just have a good match eh?
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Chris #81 - Spot on.
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Guys, you are all taking this blog far too seriously. It is hardly bigotry or ignorance to want your fiercest sporting rival to lose.
Would a Man City man cheer for United in a European final? Would a Celtic man cheer for Rangers? Why is is so hard to expect that an Irishman wouldn't want England to win? How many Australians or New Zealanders will be cheering on their Sanzar buddies? Very few I expect. It's simply sporting rivalry. Stop making it out to be something more sinister.
I'll watch the match with a few English mates. I'll cheer for South Africa, but no matter what happens we'll have a few pints and a laugh.
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Perhaps just sour grapes? Come on England!!!!
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You guys assume the cultural, psychological distance between safrica and england is immense! Historically, the links are intimate. This is a rugby match between cousins, albeit not of the kissing variety.
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England were undoubtedly the best team in 2003 but this tournament they have been simply dreadful to watch.Apart from Gomarsall their backs have only tackled(brilliantly0 but with the ball they have done nothing.i can't remember any English line break at all-apart from one brief spark from Robinson.Their courage and belief is something to be admired.My heart goes out to France because if they hadn't beaten All blacks,England would not have made the final.When will any French team ever beat an English team in a game that really matters-even Heineken cup finals.
There is no doubt S.A. play good rugby from 1-15.My fear is that if England win rugby will turn into a game where you simply kick the ball away,pray for them to make a mistake and kick over your penalties.If any other country played like this the journalists from the U.K.-notably Sunday Papers would be up in arms about how boring their tactics are.I'm glad southern hem has been taken down a peg or two,but I will still support Boks for the good of rugby as the most entertaining team game there is going.
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I absolutely agree about Will Greenwood. Though I'm an Englishman by the end of the Argentina vs. SA match I wanted to thump the idiot. I cannot stand all that English boasting and gloating -it's why other countries get so hacked off by us. But I would like to say that Greenwood isn't typical.
On another note is anyone else sick of the imbecile commentators spending more time judging the officials than the players? Bring back the irreplacable Bill MacLaren - what a wonderful man and a genuine and impartial lover of rugby. He'll always be the greatest commentator.
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Im A True Englishman and i think all of the six nations should back us. Dont u want the cup to stay in the northern hemisphere team? I would if it was wales or scotland in the final. Its the same as football and european competions, You always want the British teams to do well such as the champions league. I must say for all the six nations to get right behind England in the upcoming final
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i think i have a "revelation" for why in wales at least we dont like to support england (other than all the history stuff thrown around). i`ve grown up watching wales in the decline. throughout my teens and adult life i`ve watched my team try desperately to re shine like the 70`s, only to be left glaringly short at the final whistle. i never knew the glory days of welsh rugby so i never had a benchmark. i DO remember growing up and listening to english commentators always brinnig every conversation BACK to english rugby regardless of who was playing with a vieled emphasis on that being the important topic of the day. this built up a resentment in me towards english rugby, the constant reference in ALL sports bulletins, papers and matches that appeared to dismiss the "celtic" nations as appetisers to the main event. i dont hate england, (i married an english girl!) i would just prefer it if wales, scotland and ireland were given equal "status" by the likes of jim rosental et al who do the english rugby cause serious damage with their endless drivel. i know english rugby supporters who actually appear human and like the same pints i do!! (i haven`t actually found one willing to gloat right into my face, the same way the sports commwentators seem to every time they open their mouths!) if a genuine census was taken you might find the welsh public are more in favour of england winning..mainly because they did it aganst the odds....i will continue to cheekily goad my father in law but thats only for fun...isn`t it?
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I think I'll be as supportive of the English as they are of the rest of the UK.
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I am a Welshman living in England, with a son also born in England.
I'm afraid that hell would have to freeze over for me to support England in a rugby match. When the All Blacks win the World Cup I'll be there supporting England!!!!
I went to a cricket match in the summer and the abuse was a disgrace. If the word Welsh was swapped with any other eastern culture in the abuse we receive it would be unacceptable.
I believe only a TRUE welsh rugby supporter would share my views.
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well its only rugby i cant see why evey person thats not from england seems 2 hate us. its stupid i was over the moon wen the scots beat france at footie n wen wals played so well v nz
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As a proud Irish rugby supporter, I will be cheering on England this weekend.
The only thing that grates me is that I will still be hearing about it in when I'm 97 in the old folks home. I'll just stick in my iPod, listen to a bit of David Bowie and let Geroge bore the hell out of the rest of the crusties..
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As an aside, I think you will find that very VERY few Irish from south of the border even regard Irish as a "home nation" (and as we haven't been for the best part of a century, you had best catch up at some point)
That said, I'll support a NH team over a SH team anyday... so deep breath... "Swing looooooow, sweeeeeet chariot"
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I understand the logic of this. I am sick of tired of Southern Hemisphere dominance and I really want NH sides to win RWCs more often. If Scotland, Ireland of any one fo the Six Nations were to be in the final, I will be supporting that side too.
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So much bigotry, Look what it did for SA
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These days the English wouldn't expect any other country to support their sporting achievments, least of all our glorious British neighbours. I've never met a 'celtic warrior' that has never shown open and complete arrogance and dislike of anything English. It's very naive to suggest that this is a 'United Kingdom' in this day and age.
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I am English and I (like all other English supporters that I know)was cheering my heart out for France against NZ. Had that been any other NH nation and particularly if it had been one of the home nations playing against NZ, the cheering would have been just as loud, if not louder. I do not want to bring politics into a rugby blog, but we are The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which includes England, Scotland and Wales as well as Northern Ireland. I support my country and that includes all the nations that make it up. Rivalry on the rugby field is great and amongst supporters at a match it is great fun. It should be akin to inter-regimental rivalry in the army or inter-house rivalry in a school. Ultimately we all belong together and we should be proud of that fact. I am proud to be BRITISH, not English (except when it comes to rugby!!) and come the Olympics, we will all be supporting the same team!
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Support England, or don't. We do not care. We're in the Final!
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I am English by birth and I will be 100% behind South Africa come kick off on Saturday. This is a decision I have made and, having lived for 3 years in South Africa, I love the nation and its people.
As a South Africa supporter living in Britain, I have been battered by people who all think England will win and are a better side. I doubt this, and do believe we will win, though I also appreciate that England are very dangerous in scrappy, tight matches.
My main reason for commenting though is the totally biased reporting that has been noted by others. I am sick of the "England is wonderful" stick used by all tv channels in this country. There was a time when commentary was biased, but it took the biscuit on Sunday when the idiot reporter asked John Smit straight after our fabulous victory for all his insights and thoughts about how wonderful England were.
How's about asking him about the South African team or even the Argentinian team and their achievements. After all that was the game in question.
And then people have the cheek to call us Boks arrogant. Talk about hypocrisy...
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...personaly I dont mind the small minded bigots supporting 'anyone but England'...what I did mind was being spat on by Welsh supporters when England won 2003 rugby world cup. No doubt there will be plenty of apologists justifying such actions...just as there where when a disabled child was attacked in Scotland for wearing an England shirt during the last football world cup.
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I've looked at a few posts on this thread and it's absolute dross.
I don't give a toss who the celtic nations support - it's not going to effect the result is it ?
let them support who they want - it's important to them - not to us.
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i am a welsh man so there would be nothing i would like to see more than for england to get a beating at the hands of south africa. I know we are all british but really if wales were in that position to win something i think england would support the other team as well and if they say they don't they are lying. i just dont like the english rugby team full stop. for them to be in the final and wales, ireland and scotland at home is a disgrace and the celts needs to pull their fingers out and play some decent rugby in the 6 nations and hopefully beat england
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Is n't time everyone recognised that the greatest Empire (by land and population) of all time was in fact English and not British?
I would rather the Scots etc did n't bother supporting England.
I hope they continue to hate England in the way the Welsh, Irish etc does.
I am looking forward to the day when England is separate from the union and the wee other UK nations become insignificant backwaters of Europe.
England to retain 'our Bill'.
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why the chip on the shoulder?If any of the home nations were playing in the final,i would support them to the end!
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I am an Irishman living in England.
I do wonder what planet all those people who are complaining about the English being arrogant and expecting to win are living on!
Every Englishman I have heard talking about the World Cup and their stunning display so far have been the model of modesty and understatement.
Rather like their team are behaving.
Those Celts and Southern Hemisphere folk who say otherwise are unfortunately showing their jelousy with there comments on this site.
Please stop fellas its showing the English a side we should really have rid ourselves of many years ago!
After all most of them would happily support a home nation team if one of us were to do so well- what does that tell you about them and us?
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I recall the quote from Andrew Mehrtons who said that the England rugby team were "p***ks to lose to" I don't know why but that I think sums up the mood of a lot of non English rugby players/fans, not just the celtic nations but the southern hemisphere ones too. There is something annoying about the England rugby team and its followers. It's nothing to with being English - there's nothing wrong with that - but something about them that is hard to put one's finger on. Is it their boring style of play (yes, it's boring - the one thing the wins over Australia and France had in common apart from England winning was that they were dire). Is it a sort of public school arrogance in some of the players and their supporters? Certainly the adopted public school anthem, swing lo, is simply awful, that sound of drunken braying toffs is enough to make you want to throw up and I wish they would sing something else, anything else. There are certainly a number of individuals who stick out: Woodward, Dallaglio, Back, Dawson, Healey, Moore, Carling Guscott (I could go on). No doubt the dislike is heightened by their success (we used to laugh at them in the 80's) but there is something about England rugby that gretes and it seems only England fans are unaware of this.
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I live in wales and i'm behind england for the world cup
i support wales but my parents are english
alot of people in mmy school are supporting south africa
bu cumon on england
swing low
sweet chariot
cumon johnny
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Ref post 122
Now THAT is dross!!
Blatent anti English as they come..
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post 67
you are probably a very good advert for the old saw
If you do not anything constructive to say say nowt.
Glad post`s like this got through the moderator.
Now i hope i have the right to reply.
A fairly childish reaction to people who have a different opinion,. calling them nonentities moronic and devoid of talent.
As regards the running rugby even the players you mention would have struggled to play without forwards to win them the ball backs need a platform to play running rugby unless the idea is to play barbarians rugby agreement not to tackle..
If unfortunately all england have is substance it would be rather stupid not to make a virtue of necessity. NO mention of forwards meads cotton price jones telfer
maso .funny game.
Probably best if you kept your support anyway a bit too bilious for my taste
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The problem with watching this world cup is the biased commentating from all English commentators. I enjoy a good game of rugby, whether it is England playing or not, however I did get annoyed at listening to Will Greenwood telling all how great it is that 'we' are in the final, blah, blah, blah... when watching the SA v ARG game. So, for this reason alone, come on the BOKS..
PS..For the record, when John Beattie used to commenttate on Scotland games he was just as biased and just as annoying...!
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No. 122. I wrote the 115 article and I totally agree with you. I personally think that the media is largely responsible for creating the irritation. I just have one rule in rugby - support any side who are playing England including New Zealand and Australia though it pains me to say it.
UP THE BOKS.
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Personally, I don't give a damn whether the Scots,Welsh and other losers support us in the final. We got there, they didn't
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What is all this "patriotic" non sense about the NH? The NH/SH opposition is just an invention of the media. I have no score to settle with NZ, Oz nor SA!I am French and I see no reason why I should support England rather than SA, based solely upon the fact that one country is in the NH and the other in the SH!
As a neutral, I ALWAYS suppport the underdog or the team that plays the most attractive type of rugby. (BTW, neither France nor England achieved that,last week).
So my support will rather go to SA next saturday. But if England is unfairly reffed, or plays a great rugby (god forbids!), then I'll back them. For what it is worth...
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poster 122
Jason Robinson..Andrew Sheridan...Jonny Wilkinson...drunken,braying toffs?
Three nicer modest guys of any nationality you could not hope to meet..no small ability either, no doubt you consider Jason Robinson 'boring'.
Not just a bigot but a real rugby expert to boot eh?
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I don't need the support of the Scottish thank you- but it would be nice.
I moved to Edinburgh a number of years ago supporting Scotland as a sporting entity. But having been there and seen them crawl to the pub in their droves to maliciously support England's opposition whoever they might be, one wondered why? Well now I don't support them, it's simple. What's more I took a perverse pleasure on Saturday in the company of two Scottish friends in Oxford who tried to hide but clearly hated the audible English passion and jovial celebrations. It nearly made up for losing to France in Euro 2004, nearly!
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No-one has the right to tell anyone who to support. I certainly dont want English support and totally welcome the fact that rugby fans across the world see the very big difference between England and Britain; they also see why the Celts wont support the Ingerlish.
But the English dont get it - they even have the arrogance to play the British Anthem instead of one of their own !!!
Go Bokke - the world of rugby is behind you.
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Tom (no. 121) is refreshing to hear.
I am a Scot living in England. I have brought up my family in this county and have felt perfectly welcome and at home here.
I do still support Scotland of course but support England as a close second.
I really think non-English people just simply follow the crowd and dont make up their own minds.
I am yet to meet a so called "arrogant Englishman" I have lived there for 23 years!
I have been to Twickenham surrounded by English and loved their wit, banter and non-bigotry which you dont get from any other home nation, even my own!
They are no different to the rest of us. Its small mindedness, jelousy and little nation syndrome you are all showing.
Have you not realised that they thrive on that, it unites them and frankly belittles us! Unite behind them!
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Not going to happen.
Two reasons -
1) The form of rugby played does nothing to entice non rugby fans to watch our great game
2) Unlike 2003 when England were the best side in the world, this is not actually that good a side
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If a northern hemisphere team wins then rugby will loose, and any one who loves rugby, and I assume that includes six nations supporters, wouldn't want that.
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have always believed that unless they are playing England, you should always support Ireland, Scotland or Wales. After all most of the English have the blood of their neighbour's flowing in their veins. I would also hope that these neighbor's would feel the same. It is sad to hear that they don't. The rhetoric just seems like sour grapes. Please grow up and support your neighbor's. This is Rugby not football.
Englishman in the USA
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Sorry, I forgot to mention Will Greenwood. I am sure that he is a perfectly decent human being but, boy, is he annoying. Some of the stuff he comes out with is extraordinary. Did you hear the grassy knoll reference in the South Africa Argentina game? And something at the end of the Wales Fiji game about consigning the Welsh grand slam team to the dustbin of history. What a cliche. One ex England player who I happen to think is ok is Martin Johnson, of all people. Unlike the Dawsons and Greenwoods of this world who just love the sound of their own voices (can someone tell me who, apart from the man himself honestly thinks that Dawson is even remotely funny?) he is quite matter of fact, ok a little bit boring maybe but fair.
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To back Tom above i am also an irishman living ni england, for your victory in 2003 it was never shoved down the throat of your 6 nations neighbours, you treated your victory with dignity and respect for your 6 nations competitors, (unlike the 1966 mob who cant let go) , as a munster fan your current gutsy performance remind me of my own province, cheered for you in 2003 and will be chering for you on saturday night go on england.
PS Most rugby fans in ireland i know feel the same.
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The main song for the Rugby World Cup is called 'World in Union' Perhaps we should all take note...
----------------------
There's a dream,I feel
So rare,so real
All the world in union
The world as one
Gathering together
One mind, one heart
Every creed, every colour
Once joined, never apart
Searching for the best in me
I will find what I can be
If I win, lose or draw
It's a victory for all
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
We may face high mountains
Must cross rough seas
We must take our place in history
And live with dignity
Just to be the best I can
That's the goal for every man
If I win, lose or draw
It's a victory for all
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
It's the world
The world in union
A new age has begun
------------------------
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I love it !!
Everyone's saying they are supporting SA because they play beautifull flowing rugby.
Come off it, you hate us and you know it.............and we love it and thrive on it !!
If any of the Celtic nations ever got close to a final, they wouldn't care about the style of play.
The best sort of rugby is winning rugby.......come on England
WIN UGLY !!!!!!!
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the aggro in rugby that england and its supporters get is unbearable at times, altohugh looking at it from a historical perspective it makes sense. nearly every rugby nation is an ex-colony (or still is, appologies to welsh and scotch readers, i am not purposely digging at you, it may not be politically correct, but it is fact) once subject to the government in london. i have experienced both indirectly and directly hatred for simply being english, and i think as a nation we put up with a lot of stick from all quarters, much of which is unjustified. we even have little pride in ourselves as a nation and anyone whos actually lived there will know how quick the english will put down themeselves. its quite sad and makes me sad for a nation that has previously achieved so much. i am no blind patriot but a little more pride in general would benefit us and everyone in general. pride such as the scots and welsh (to name a few) have for all the many good things about their countries.
the one (excellent) vent for patriotic feelings is sport. i personally have been begrudged in supporting scotland (in particular) in the past due to the uneccessary abuse i get from the many scotch i know and have known, and their hatred of english things, particulalry at sport). my heart tells me to support any english (except chelsea the cheats, he he), then british then NH team, and i do just that, bar the above feeling. it is clearly a two way street and many comments here by english fans do not help.
the artcile is correct. for feck's sake get behind teams from the same islands and hemisphere, save our rivalry (mostly good natured) for the 6 nations. ultimately the number of french supporting england in the final will make no difference on the score but it would be nice if we pulled together.
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CMON BAC ENGLAND UP THE ENGLAND TEAM AINT JUST REPRESENTING ENGLAND BUT ALSO THE NH!!
surly you dont want a SH team 2 win. why dont yu really show what the NH spirit is about and cheer are NH team on???? dont matter wat NH team it is but CHEER THEM ON!! it just happens 2 be england this year so PLEASE cheer them on!
you can say to any SH and say where was the first team to win it twice?
you know where!! NH!!!
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the aggro in rugby that england and its supporters get is unbearable at times, altohugh looking at it from a historical perspective it makes sense. nearly every rugby nation is an ex-colony (or still is, appologies to welsh and scotch readers, i am not purposely digging at you, it may not be politically correct, but it is fact) once subject to the government in london. i have experienced both indirectly and directly hatred for simply being english, and i think as a nation we put up with a lot of stick from all quarters, much of which is unjustified. we even have little pride in ourselves as a nation and anyone whos actually lived there will know how quick the english will put down themeselves. its quite sad and makes me sad for a nation that has previously achieved so much. i am no blind patriot but a little more pride in general would benefit us and everyone in general. pride such as the scots and welsh (to name a few) have for all the many good things about their countries.
the one (excellent) vent for patriotic feelings is sport. i personally have been begrudged in supporting scotland (in particular) in the past due to the uneccessary abuse i get from the many scotch i know and have known, and their hatred of english things, particulalry at sport). my heart tells me to support any english (except chelsea the cheats, he he), then british then NH team, and i do just that, bar the above feeling. it is clearly a two way street and many comments here by english fans do not help.
the artcile is correct. for feck's sake get behind teams from the same islands and hemisphere, save our rivalry (mostly good natured) for the 6 nations. ultimately the number of french supporting england in the final will make no difference on the score but it would be nice if we pulled together.
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as an irishman i was supporting England but i just cant do it any longer due 100% to Will Greenwood, ITV have made a terrible mistake letting that guy have a microphone he opitomises why other nations find it hard to support England when it comes to sport, throughout the entire SA v Arg game all he talked about was England,im watching on Setanta in future which may help to change my view again but until then come the Bokke
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I'm a Scot and do not consider myself anti-English, but if things so far are anything to go by, I'll find it hard to support England. This is not because of borders or historical rivalry; it's because I think the way England play rugby is incredibly dull. I don't dispute that the English pack is hugely powerful or technically astute, but I don't find it entertaining. I think the success of that style of rugby represents a real setback for those who enjoy watching free-flowing and fast rugby and the sooner the laws are changed to prevent the dominance of power over skill, the better. I think Scotland, with its more limited player base, were guilty of trying to play in a similar fashion against both Italy and Argentina and I found both of these games very dull too, to the extent that I couldn't really get excited about the prospect of a Scottish victory. If, however, England play a more expansive and entertaining game, then I will not begrudge them a victory.
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Come on!
We are in the WC final, again, you have never been there, if you were though, (and this is to scots, irish and welsh) england would support you!! what links do you have to SA that are closer than your links to england? this is not a time to think about inequality or 'braveheart sentiment' I as an englishman brought up in scotland, would support the french against the southern hemispheire. get over whatever resntment you are stuck in and support the locals!!! 98% of enlish would support you!
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the aggro in rugby that england and its supporters get is unbearable at times, altohugh looking at it from a historical perspective it makes sense. nearly every rugby nation is an ex-colony (or still is, appologies to welsh and scotch readers, i am not purposely digging at you, it may not be politically correct, but it is fact) once subject to the government in london. i have experienced both indirectly and directly hatred for simply being english, and i think as a nation we put up with a lot of stick from all quarters, much of which is unjustified. we even have little pride in ourselves as a nation and anyone whos actually lived there will know how quick the english will put down themeselves. its quite sad and makes me sad for a nation that has previously achieved so much. i am no blind patriot but a little more pride in general would benefit us and everyone in general. pride such as the scots and welsh (to name a few) have for all the many good things about their countries.
the one (excellent) vent for patriotic feelings is sport. i personally have been begrudged in supporting scotland (in particular) in the past due to the uneccessary abuse i get from the many scotch i know and have known, and their hatred of english things, particulalry at sport). my heart tells me to support any english (except chelsea the cheats, he he), then british then NH team, and i do just that, bar the above feeling. it is clearly a two way street and many comments here by english fans do not help.
the artcile is correct. for feck's sake get behind teams from the same islands and hemisphere, save our rivalry (mostly good natured) for the 6 nations. ultimately the number of french supporting england in the final will make no difference on the score but it would be nice if we pulled together.
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Come on!
We are in the WC final, again, you have never been there, if you were though, (and this is to scots, irish and welsh) england would support you!! what links do you have to SA that are closer than your links to england? this is not a time to think about inequality or 'braveheart sentiment' I as an englishman brought up in scotland, would support the french against the southern hemispheire. get over whatever resntment you are stuck in and support the locals!!! 98% of enlish would support you!
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Come on!
We are in the WC final, again, you have never been there, if you were though, (and this is to scots, irish and welsh) england would support you!! what links do you have to SA that are closer than your links to england? this is not a time to think about inequality or 'braveheart sentiment' I as an englishman brought up in scotland, would support the french against the southern hemispheire. get over whatever resntment you are stuck in and support the locals!!! 98% of enlish would support you!
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As an Englishman i have always supported the northen hemisphere teams against the southern hemisphere . But i would not exspect the Scots,Welsh or Irish to ever support us and to be honest i could not care less .
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As a Scotsman I can wholeheartedly say C'MON MY ENGLISH COUSINS!!!
All my friends are secretly supporting England but I see no reason to be secretive about it.
Their team are passionate, brave, modest, ruthless warriors, something we Celts should recognise as features we used to show on the battlefield/rugby field!
Coupled with this I have to say their supporters(I watched the semi in Newcastle with some English friends) have rather annoyingly given me nothing to moan about- modest and almost embarrased, also had nothing but kind words to boost this Scots moral.
Rarely do you come accross such modest, pleasant, humourous fellas as Vickery, Robinson, Wilkinson, Shaw Gomersall etc
There is nothing to dislike so stop imagining there is, I and my friends will be behind you English as I know you would be behind us.
Please ignore those Scots who unfortunately feel so insecure about themeselves that they cant see their backwardness.
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I agree with you all the way. Having grown up in Paris, I couldn't help but notice how similar I was to my friends over the Channel. I eventually moved to England, and settled in with great ease. Overall, the Six Nations should support England on their march to victory. Heck, the whole Northen Hemisphere should support England retain the title they so rightly deserve. This weekend I shall be painting my face, my sister's face and my dog's face with the Saint George's Cross, and shouting for Johnny as he kicks for his umpteenth drop-goal.
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As an Englishman i have always supported the northen hemisphere teams against the southern hemisphere . But i would not exspect the Scots,Welsh or Irish to ever support us and to be honest i could not care less .
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I remember a few years ago being at an England - Ireland game at Twickenham. This was in the days when games were played simultaneously, and when our game ended they put up on the large screen the last 5 or 10 minutes of the Scotland - France game that was running a bit later. And I'll never forget Twickers ringing with everyone cheering "Scotland! Scotland!" because we English would generally support the British team against the Froggies!
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John is right, as an Argentinian I will support England and Wilko, no question ask, South Africa had played with cheep shots, yellow card ect,and I rather put with the Bad singing of England that the Elitist tri nation South africans.
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i cant speak for wales and scotland fans but i feel there's a few blogs here that are disrespectful to the irish fans- slagging us off and saying we're england haters. have you people read most of the blogs from me, and lots of other irish fans who are supporting england and are supporting the nh team whoever it is! before accusing us all of being england haters, read through alot of these blogs- loads of irish are supporting england.. the irish and the english relationship is now better than ever esp in the rugby- remember dublin for the ireland england game in this 6n? the fans mingled , had lots of laughs and painted the town mostly green as ireland did win) but there was loads of mutual respect and friendliness so for some english fans here to be accusing most irish of anti englishness is very unfair and actually unjust. however the itv commentary is a joke and is totally centred around the english team- i thought brian morre was bad. setanta, though it has its critics, has been totally impartial regarding how badly ireland plahyed and werent afraid to say it. one of their reporters ( a woman) actually had the guts to say to eos after the namibian game, why were ireland so crap. would you actually get the itv crowd doing that- no because they're totally licking arse!
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I have thought carefully about what to write here having read through all the comments.
I ought to admit to being English but frankly I as we all are on our Islands am a speckled person.
I have to say I find many of these comments very disappointing.
I had thought that our Celtic neighbours had moved on from seeing us as some form of enemy. I know for a fact that you love holidaying in our country and you cant deny that we are equally as friendlyand welcoming as you all are.
Unfortunately the anti-comments simply give us a moral high ground and make us grateful for not having hatred in our hearts as MANY of you seem to have.
It must be almost exhausting for those of you who follow this course to find reason to hate the English, the English rugby team have been more modest and gentlemanly than any sportsteam I can remember and their fans have been the model of good humour as well.
Good luck to Wales, Scotland and Ireland in your rebuilding, I can speak for most English by saying we too were disappointed when you were knocked out as you represent our islands as we do.
We wish our extended family all the best for the coming together of distant cousins in the battle for the Triple Crown in the Six Nations!
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Its really quite funny reading these comments.
As an Aussie I know what it is like to have small minded, jelous neighbours.
I cant believe these Scots, Welsh and Irish folk can even write these bizarre words!
You are living in dreamland- the English team are a group of men that you cannot help but admire and respect.
I spent years trying to dislike the English but I've given up it takes too much effort and there is nothing to dislike.
If anything, due to the constant bashing we all give them they have become even less arrogant, bigoted and obnoxious than the rest of us. I should know I go and watch all the Twickenham matches.
Their style of play is furious, brave, full of passion and pride and we all admire that- give it a rest the chips on shoulders brigade!
(ps Carter kicks 48% of posession Wilkinson 40%- wake up!))
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Its really quite funny reading these comments.
As an Aussie I know what it is like to have small minded, jelous neighbours.
I cant believe these Scots, Welsh and Irish folk can even write these bizarre words!
You are living in dreamland- the English team are a group of men that you cannot help but admire and respect.
I spent years trying to dislike the English but I've given up it takes too much effort and there is nothing to dislike.
If anything, due to the constant bashing we all give them they have become even less arrogant, bigoted and obnoxious than the rest of us. I should know I go and watch all the Twickenham matches.
Their style of play is furious, brave, full of passion and pride and we all admire that- give it a rest the chips on shoulders brigade!
(ps Carter kicks 48% of posession Wilkinson 40%- wake up!))
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John
Please be serious.
Why would anyone want any nation other than their own to win aything. I am Irish living in Scotland and I was hoping the Jocks would be kicked out by Italy. Could not cope with the "we got further than you" banter. But that is the point, in Union, you cheer for whatever side then you sit down after the game, argue about the referee and then shake hands. That is why it is such a great sport.
Calm down England fans - we can never support you - there is too much hstory. Accept the fun. Celts - calm down - it is not war, but when it is war, we will be standing beside our English cousins.
I am odd. I wanted Wales to beat Australia, but wanted Fiji to beat Wales. I wanted Japan and Canada to beat Fiji. I wanted France to beat NZ, but wanted NZ to score a ton against the Jocks. It is part of the game - pick a team and hope they win.
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Personally I couldn't give a tinker's cuss who the other 5 nations support. We can fly the flag for the Northern hemisphere quite nicely on our own thank you very much, without the help of Celt bar stewards and others!
Come on England. ;)
Oh, and if we win or lose, I'll wear my England rugby shirt with pride, especially as I am lucky enough to be going around Oz next month.
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Bushy, post #132
The difference between England and Britain. By that do you mean that most people differentiate the English are, in general, a lot more tolerant and considerate of others, while a highly vocal element of the non-English Brits are petty minded bigots? [That seems to be the difference suggested by this thread]. :)
No one is demanding you support England. But the thread author has the right to ask you to and state his reasons. Up to you what you do, but I would rather not have the support of people who think like you, whether their birth certificate says they were born. Fans of rugby, or people who respect their own countries and hence others I welcome.
I would also be glad if England used its own anthem but unfortunately we have subsumed our own identity into Britain for too long. Hopefully it would come as it would allow a more uplifting song. [Also as an atheist I'm never happy calling on a deity I don't believe in].
Judging by the comments on the thread I'm far from sure your right in your assumptions that other Celts are as narrow minded and hate filled as you. Or that the bulk of the rugby world will actually be supporting the Boks on Saturday. :)
Stevep
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i have a welsh mother and english father god bless em!and with scots and irish grandparents,and having lived in all parts of the british isles,i always support the home nations but sadly in recent years the racist comments from some quarters in scotland and particularly wales means i regretably dont care what those so called celts think(most of them are unaware who the real celts were and that they are probably non other than anglo saxons!)
iwas in a french restaurant in cardiff last week and exchanged friendly and sporting best wishes with our french host,until a mature welsh woman spewed out her anti english bile which shocked all customers ,and she insisted she spoke for all welsh rugby supporters
so rise above it and good luck england,and better luck next time to ireland and scotland,and congrats to the french for staging a superb tournament
as for the aussies apart from o neill,just great losers gracious in defeat
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