South Africa to win (264)
- 16 Oct 07, 10:42 AM
You can’t predict with any certainty what will happen in sport. That’s why we play it. That’s why we watch it.
And if you could, you wouldn’t share it with the millions of readers who have visited this website in the last few weeks.
You’d remortgage your house, liquidize your assets and cart all your life-savings down to the nearest bookie.
Most people don’t bet on sport for that very reason. Others don’t bet on sport because, however hard they try, their hearts rule their heads. Fans are not so much analytical, as anatomical. One-eyed supporters would rather cut off their right arms than bet against their own team.
Journalists too wouldn’t be human if their assessment was entirely unclouded either by patriotism or the needs of the market they serve. But I still can’t make out a case for saying that England should win the World Cup.
South Africa have the better individual players. If you made up a composite side from the two teams, the Springbok representation might be only marginally higher than England’s, if you picked a world XV from this tournament, South Africa would have an overwhelming majority.
Like England, they have an intelligent and articulate coach, Jake White, and a respected and inspirational captain, John Smit. Unlike England, this team has been four years in the making – longer if you count the time many of the Springboks spent with Jake White in the under 21 set-up - and has a settled and experienced look to it.
Brian Ashton by contrast has been in charge of England for just 10 months, and openly admits that he still hadn’t decided on his best line-up when the tournament started.
That process was still going on when this South African side thrashed this England side by 36 points to nil - the worst ever World Cup defeat for any England side.
Of course it is possible to argue that that was four weeks ago, and that if a week is a long time in politics, it can be close to an eternity in sport, but it is equally impossible to deny that the cornerstones of the Boks' success that day are still in place nor that the return of former International Player of the Year, Schalk Burger, is anything but a considerable bonus.
Fourie du Preez has few rivals as the world’s best scrum-half, locks Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha are acknowledged as the best line-out combination in the game, while, as the semi-final destruction of Argentina demonstrated, Bryan Habana is the most deadly finisher in the world, and Percy Montgomery has a place-kicking success rate that Jonny Wilkinson can only envy.
But Wilkinson, as he showed in both the quarter-final against Australia and the semi-final against France, kicks the points when they matter most, while it is impossible to quantify the effect he has on the players around him. They know that if they can keep the game close, reduce it to a sudden-death shoot-out, they have on their side the greatest gun-slinger the world of rugby has ever seen.
Is it enough? Australia (because their forwards were blown away at the set-piece) and France (following the misguided notion of an eccentric coach) got sucked into a war of attrition in which their chances of success were greatly reduced.
As a journalist, I believe that South Africa won’t make the same mistake. As an Englishman, I hope they do. Either way, I’m not putting any money on it.
Alastair Hignell is a former England rugby international who commentates on rugby union for Radio 5 Live. He is covering England at the World Cup. 5 Live's full broadcast schedule is here.
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I personally dont think it'll matter if the saffas do get into a war of attrition with england...they've got the players to come through and win anyway.
gutted
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A win is a win however you achieve it, this English rugby side like the last one that won the rugby world cup, knows what to do to win games. It doesn't look good and it won't win over many fans, but damn it, it is effective.
Will SA win? No! Should they? Yes, but if that was what sport was all about then Argentina would be playing Georgia in the final, and they aren't.
I just want England to win because that's all that'll be remebered, and who could begrudge this England side a little glory.
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Well said finally an englishman whose common sense hasn't been blinded by over eager patriotism.
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Logic would suggest that Alastair's instinct here is likely to be correct, but I think it will depend on the referee's interpretation (don't know who the ref will be). S.Africa are remarkably talented and fit, but specialise in a kind of semi-organised chaos (which shows they are very versatile) and frankly play right on the borderline of legality (offsides, playing ball off their feet, high tackles and some forward passes - for some reason a modern rugby blight).
For an example of a high tackle look no further than Brian Habana's blatant forearm smash on Roncero in the S-F; how he has escaped a citing goodness only knows - it takes a lot to disturb Roncero. He could have easily been out of the England game.
If S.Africa resort to such tactics then England will profit but England will need to expand their game beyond tight forward control because the SA players are more versatile, so it will also require some brilliance from the backs if they are to win.
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You can't be series... yes in the last game Johnny was out with injury but all the forwards were playing and what happened in that game speaks for itself. The english backline is very one-dimensional and i feel against the springboks, whose backline is exactly the opposite, it will only count against them.
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Congrats to both SA & England for reaching the final of the World Cup.
As far as im concerned SA will obviously have the phycological advantage over england coming into the game, however its up to england to stamp their authority & break them early on to have any chance of retaining their title against a very strong and unified springbok team.
Cant w8!!!!
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The result will reside in the heads of the players as and when they march out onto the pitch. As we have seen so far in this tournament it will have little to do with current form and best players- if it did Saturdays game would be South Africa v The All Blacks. I think England have got it right in their minds, lets hope so
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I agree with Dick Best. It would have been better if England had gone out early and then the underlying problems in the English game would have been attended to. The Boks will win anyway though.
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The whole thing about England teams is being overhyped. I think South Africa should win the tournament for the good of the game. England have scored the least tries that is a defensive game without flair and passion. The way chelsea plays football a matter of just winning. GO GO BOKS.
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Let's face it in rugby terms we are the West Germany of International football. No one likes us or our style of play but we seem to keep winning. No one remembers the style of play after the fact just who won. Here's to England pulling off the biggest sporting turnaround in history!
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For what its worth, here are the thoughts from an ambivalent Scot:
1)If you (the media)genuinely want England to win then keep writing them off, make sure they go into the game as "underdogs". Talk up SA as much as you can, they are not half as good as they think they are.
2)England are much stronger mentally and SA are liable to blow at crucial points in the game.
3)Kick everything to Pietersen
4)Squeeze du Preez for 80 mins
5)Scrum SA to death, the English front row is far superior
6)Hope that the referee allows England to continuously infringe offside - well, they all have so far!!!
Good Luck.
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8 years ago, I received 150 emails from Saffers "consoling me" following the semi-final defeat against SA & Jannie de Beer's drop goals. Now we have our own drop goal specialist and England get labelled "boring". How hypocritical is that? Also, SH fans make posts supporting their team and its ok but if anyone in England says anything the least supportive of our own team, then we're being "Arrogant". I'm just so fed up of this SH bullsh1t. If SA win, then we shouldn't slag our team off like the Aussies do, or complain endlessly about the ref like the Kiwis have but shrug our shoulders like the French have and just live with it. I really hope England win on Saturday but even if they don't, they have already played superbly and deserve our thanks for a wonderful world cup. Come on England!!
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Alastair,
We only 'liquidize' our assets in the unlikely event that we want to drink them. It's more common to 'liquidate' them.
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The Boks are a complete outfit and there isn't really a weakness. They are a blend of vast experience and youth. All players are very skillful and they play as a team. They also always take their chances. But they have yet to be challenged by a really powerful team. If England can perform again, the Boks will struggle. If England perform like the last meeting between the two, the score will be the same.
My money is still on England, all the same, dependent upon the team that Ashton puts on the park.
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If England win it will be a victory for sheer bloody mindedness and a refusal to back down in the face of better sides and stupid odds.
Which to be honest I don't think we see enough of in sport.
Say what you like about the England rugby team over the last 10 years, when the chips are down, when it really really matters, I've never seen a sporting outfit respond as well as they (generally) have.
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Italophile - have you been watching the same tournament as me? Trite comments about South Africa's "bordeline legality" are starting to wear thin. The Islander high-tackle antics in this World Cup were truly disturbing but barely got a mention and the Argentinians were no angels in the semi - watch the replay.
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It is obvious that South Africa has a much better playing record than England over the last few years. The same was true of Australia and France, so we cannot allow that to impress us.
I am delighted though a bit mystified by the transformation in England's spirit. Is it due to dogged traditions of English people? Or to the experience of playing in the premiership in domestic games? Who cares. One more hard push lads. Show us all what you are made of.
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Will people quit saying that England play 'ugly'. Tight tense games are glorious - heroic even. I would rather watch one or two moments of dazzling brilliance, rather than a litany of poor tackles, defensive errors and fourteen tries.
These are the best defences in the world, many of the teams that have left tournament seemed to forget that.
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As an England supporter I think that the only way I am going to be able to enjoy Saturday night is by placing a HUGE wager on the Spring Boks!!!
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I don't understand this "for the good of the game" line that a lot of antipodeans keep pulling out. Surely the turnaround that England have achieved as well as the performance of the "minnows" in this world cup have shown that the game is in great shape but can still be improved. Surely for the "good of the game" England should finish victorious and show that the Super Powers are human after all. COME ON ENGLAND!!
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Well done to both teams for reaching the final.
I personally will be very proud of the English team no matter what the result is on Saturday as they showed guts and fighting spirit to come back from the 36-0 loss to the Boks.
May the best team on the day win.
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A lot of experts are saying that if South Africa keep the 36-0 in their minds they will lose. England went into the group game without any strategy due to injury and suspension and it immediately showed. Vickey to take on Os will allow Big Ted to attack the Springbok Tight Head. Moody has the size over Rees to be an equal match with Juan Smith.
In the backs we have our experienced decision makers in Gommarsal and Jonny, aided by Catt playing in his proper position. With the ball we win, we now have people who know what to do with it.
If Hipkiss plays, he will add an extra dimension in being able to straighten the line.
England won't make the errors the Pumas did. Alain Rolland is the referee, and after seeing England pulverise the Aussie pack, will referee the scrum accordingly.
Whilst the Springboks have the better players, they also have the more temperamental ones. I think you can expect at least one Springbok in the sinbin, at some point in the game.
If its close with 20 minutes to go, then the money will be on England.
I hope Jake White is thinking like Springbok fans and already claiming victory as by thinking this the South Africans (as great John Eales says) will lose .. unfortunately he's a better coach than that
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Head vs. Heart?
I've just transplanted half my heart into my brain!!!
COME ON ENGLAND!!!!
In regards to "But I still can’t make out a case for saying that England should win the World Cup" I don't really agree... yes, you are right, SA is four years in the making, they have worked hard, grafting away and look the very epitomy of a solid team...
But in just 4 weeks England's players have stood up, taken accountability for their own poor play and made the biggest come back in Rugby history.
I propose this
- RSA should win the World Cup because they have worked hard for it over the last four years.
- England should win the world cup because they've worked miracles over the last four weeks.
You can't say neither side DON't deserve it!!
Anyone agree?
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Logic correctly denotes a Boks Victory, But Logic also said The Wallabies and the French.
OK so on paper South Africa look a more expansive and versatile side with the ability to score points from almost anywhere and Montgomerey's kicking has been superb throughout the tournament (He is due an off day) and thats why they are favourites.
England have the advantage of having played harder games and having been under pressure from pretty much day one of this competition and now seem to be a highly organised and disciplined unit.
Unfortunately I cannot see anything but a Sprigbok win but by no more than 5 points.
Here's hoping I'm wrong!!
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The referee will be Alain Rolland I believe. His bilingual skills (French father) will not be required after all. But attention to the offside zone - where Schalk Burger lives - will!
I am looking forward to this game, and hope that England's remarkable recovery continues.
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A reply to Jon. As a South African, I must stress that no previous results count for anything. This is a new game and is going to be very tough for both teams. If England looses then the whole country CAN applaud them becaus eof the way they have come back. IF they win we will applaud our Boks for a magnificent world cup.
Stop slagging your team whichever it is! Now is the time o support them, no matter what.
SA 2 win.
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Lets put it this way; when was the last time we saw England beat South Africa? The way i see it is that we have to beat them at some point, is the World Cup final not an ideal opportunity to do it?
I thought we had no chance against Australia. And the same with France. I think if we had played either of those teams in the final we would have lost. I think that the guys that were on the South Africa tour this summer and the team that got kaned 36-0 want some serious revenge. The team that played them was half as strong as the team that have beaten aus and france. No Jonny? Not this time.
Bring it on Springboks, revenge is imminent.
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England have played three of the top-five ranked teams during this tournament - South Africa, France and Australia - and if they emerge victorious on Saturday they will be justifiably worthy of the title "World Champions". On the other hand, were South Africa to win I should have some misgivings about according them the status of true "World Champions" as they would only have beaten England amongst the top-five.
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South Africa will expose Englands negative strategy if they get ahead early.
Then the game will be over because England lacks the flair to really power through teams if they cant just take the penalties on offer and kick drop goals to edge ahead.
If England manage to put up points early, it will be a totally different story because they will then be able to control the game with their tactical kicking.
I forecast that the first team to go 5 or more points ahead will win the final.
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England have scored less tries because they've played against better defenses. On the other hand England have also conceded less tries... South Africa have conceded tries in every game they've played except the 36-0! Including 2 from Fiji who were down to 14 men.
My heart is telling me that England have all the momentum, they have the players that have been here before and, by no means perfect, are far more disciplined than SA (just check the last 5 minutes of the Argentina game...).
South Africa are definitely beatable. But is it just one game too far for us...
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A message for our boys in france believe in yourselves you can win this world cup final despite what the boks say and the whole of England are behind you.
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I don't understand this "for the good of the game" line that a lot of antipodeans keep pulling out. Surely the turnaround that England have achieved as well as the performance of the "minnows" in this world cup have shown that the game is in great shape but can still be improved. Surely for the "good of the game" England should finish victorious and show that the Super Powers are human after all. COME ON ENGLAND!!
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Magmol .. for the good of the game, the winners of the tournament will be the best team on the day.
I believe it will be a very close, tense game. It will take some b@lls for SA to start throwing the ball around.
The over riding instinct for the players will be to not lose the game, hence a tight defensive game, it will be slight margins of superiority that decide the outcome.. I believe the ref will set the tone .. who adapts to the ref the quickest may gain the upperhand, but I think it will come down to kicking .. both from hand and penalties .. unfortunately SA seem to have the upper hand there.
I hope the Saffers have won the game already in their heads, because they might just get a surprise from a rejuvenated and dogged England Team that have had to produce the goods or go out in all of their last 4 games.
England know how to grind out a win. .. and thats all that matters .. the name on the trophy, not the style it was won with, I'll take an England win by whatever means possible.
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i think people have this strange notion of what is exciting in rugby
exciting games for the neutral are either the underdog coming back and beating the odds on favourite (how many neutrals were excited in the France v NZ quarter, or the SA v Fiji one when it was 20-20?!)
but england are labelled boring because we use our greatest asset (our forwards) to wear down the opponents and get good field postition.
I've been much more excited with the two close knock out matches (aus an france) than with the samoa and tonga v england matches...which were over mid way through the second half and boring to watch after then because theres only one winner, jus like i found myself being bored when SA beat argentina quite comfortably....for me close games are wayyyy better to watch, to see how each team copes under pressure because that is how a true world cup winning team is made, by how well it copes under pressure....england have been through it twice but i wonder if SA can do what aus an france could not....
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I think what this world cup has shown is that grit and determination can overcome individual brilliance.
I don't think there is any doubt that England do not have as many world-class players as some of our opponents BUT they have had the mental toughness to grind out wins (although I'm still not sure how they managed it!).
As to the style of play, who cares how you do it? I have seen some desparately dull games from SH sides but I can't tell you exactly when - I just remember the result.
WE ARE IN THE WORLD CUP FINAL - that is the bottom line.
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One of the key reasons England played so poorly in 36-0 defeat to SA was beacuse all three of the props used had spent much of the last year recuperating from injury. As a consequence they did not have the match fitness to compete effectively which resulted in a very poor performance. Games against Tonga and Samoa enabled them to get up to speed and it was no surprise that the demolition of the Aussies and the subdueing of France stemmed from the power of the England front row.
If the Boks do have any weaknesses its in there front row where on Sunday night OZ Du Randt was visibly just hanging on early in the second half and the tight head is a long way off match fitness.
If Sheridan and co perform to their potential they will certainly put the Boks on the back foot and then who knows England will have a platform to control the game and nullify the myriad of Bok threats.
Good luck England
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Now let us consider another aspect of this RWC, that is the 'expert analysis'. This has been mostly wrong, resulting in the likes of Greenwood and Dawson reverting to hysteria and squealing like schoolgirls. The England results have been so surprising to the so called 'experts'. Ashton on the other seems to remain phlegmatic, perhaps he is the one that has been under-estimated, and the only one who understands this squad's capabilities. Impressive coaching at the highest level.
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I am elated England have made the Final, after all 3 out of six Finals has to be enviable?
World cups are all about form aren't they?
England appear to be coming into some sort of form which has allowed them to put in performances to beat Australia and France. If you had told me that We'd be in the Final three weeks ago after the pool match against South Africa I'd have laughed at you! I hoped we'd get into the knockout stages but anything more than that would be a bonus.
Now we're in the Final, we can but dare to dream!
South Africa are the favourites no doubt but with form going into teh World Cup is this such a bad thing for England? South Africa EXPECT to win it and so do their fans, does this not add pressure on their players?
More than this the side South Africa beat in the pool match was not full strentgh and certainly not playing with the confidence and belief they are now?
It IS a cup final and anything can happen... :o)
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Tom, we last beat South Africa this time last year. In the summer tests, even though we had a weakened side through illness and club committments, we were still holding them at half time in the games.
Whisper it quietly, but I think we'll do it.
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oh and with reference to comment 14, Karl, i think that you're just not looking hard enough, england managed to find the weaknesses in both aus an france (scrum for aus an traille playing full back for france)
In terms of SA these weaknesses are less pronounced...but they are still there
Berger tends to stray offside and a lil "accidental" dummy by gomarsall would expose this maybe
Steyn whilst being one of the best centres in the world is very assured of himself...and whilst being a positive...it could also be a negative if he gets arrogant and starts tryin to drop goals from 50+ metres like in super 14's, and whilst he's got those, doing it in a world cup final is a different matter
and finally habanas obvious height disadvantage....i saw in the earlier rounds a few crossfield kicks being employed but not since...you have someone like sackey perhaps, match him up against habana and put a kick across to him....he will have no chance
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I don't think SA have really been tested in a match of attrition yet. Fiji was tight but not that tight and in the dying minutes there was no doubt who was the winner.
I'm sorry but I can't take Percy seriously. The man has highlights in his hair - that takes two hours in a hairdresser with either loads of tin foil of a plastic cap on your head. I realise he has been impressive on the pitch but highlights!!!!
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Whereas - so far in this tournament -the other teams England have faced have not...SA have the full compliment of brains, talent in every position together with a cool approach and a very good coach. I really do hope England can pull them in and put them under serious pressure up front - it's the toughest challenge yet and so it should be it makes for a great RWC final!
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Post 10: magnol; do you understand the definition of 'passion'? It's not been flowing, open rugby by England but one of the key reasons we're through is PASSION ... numpty.
3 key areas for improvement by England are needed:
1) Our line-out has got to work better than v. France or we'll be killed.
2) Gommarsal has got to box kick better - he's been kicking too deep: give Montgomery time and we'll lose 30-40 yards everytime.
3) Monster their scrum: squeeze the space/time for their scrum half, 'cos he is brilliant.
Do the above and SA will go the way of the others: home empty-handed.
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I really think that you cant call England boring and you cant say that SA don't have the bottle either.
The final is such a clash of styles and we should all just be looking forward to seeing which one prevails.
It should be an absolute cracker!! Go England!!
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Why would an englishman not support his own country, even if SA look the better side, where is your patriotism...?!
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yes much better idea that england was knocked out early, so we could address the flaws in our game and develop a team capable of....er... reaching the world cup final. D'oh!
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Unfortunately I think you might be right but England have a much better chance than you give them. The Jaapies have been together for a long time but so had the All Blacks and Ireland. I personally think that England will be under less pressure-they have nothing to lose. Similarly the loss in the group game will only give the added motivation. The Boks will be wary as they have not played an in form England side for a good couple of years (or since the last world cup). They looked very average against Tonga and Fiji and could have lost both games had it not been for a bounce in one and an excellent tackle in the other. The way SA struggled to break the Fiji line by rucking highlights a weakness in their game. A lot depends on the England penalty count (cue worries about Moody) and the referee (Alan Roland I think). If the ref actually applies the laws accurately and properly then SA will struggle with their penalty count. Tri-Nations and Super 14 allow too much infringement on the floor and "flat" passing. As the ref is Northern Hemisphere hopefully this will be addressed. Steyne has also appeared nervous and is making mistakes. If Moody can get in his and Butch James' face we will have a good chance. The SA line-out is the best in the world however and England tapped far too many balls back against France-will this have been fixed? SA scored their tries against Argentinian mistakes and did not create too much. Habana is very dangerous (not too many long, flat passes please Jonny) but Pieterson is vulnerable. Can't wait until Saturday!
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Come on people...
Who thought Argentina would beat France?
Who thought England would beat Austrailia?
Who though France would beat the All Blacks?
Who thought England would beat France?
There is no reason why England cannot beat SA. Even if they are underdogs. Evidently a team 'on paper' does not actually play the match.
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England are in the final purely on luck. They play a style that would make watching paint dry more interesting. Ireland beat them 43-13 six months ago and SA beat them 36-0 three weeks ago. If they did by some miracle win it would set Rugby back 20 years.
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Hopefully the Sprinboks will win - and they DESERVE it... since they are apart from being the best team on the field also the most humble team on the field....
They have been criticised and heckled non-stop from all sides but not once did you hear ANY South African player or Coach or Manager comment ANYTHING negative about ANY other team... they are always full of compliments for the other teams... especially also to England... always full of compliments for the England coach and the England players...
This just reflects their TRUE sportsmanship in this whole Rugby World Cup.
This is unlike the England team & coach and their supporters... who keep on taunting and screaming from the roof tops - We will make history, We will win!!! etc etc etc.
So in reaction to Gawen's comment earlier - NO..... South Africa and all their fans don't EXPECT to win... we just hope for the best since the guys really deserve it!
The England Team and their fans EXPECT to win and PROCLAIM it all the time.... I think the pressure are more on THEM to live up to their BIG words.
Hopefully there will be a humble and deserving winner of the Rugby World Cup this year.... GO SPRINGBOKS!!!!!
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I'd like to comment on Martin's comment. If England have the so called power and experience then what were they doing 4 weeks ago when they were embarrassed by a well-oiled proffessional South African team. They looked like a bunch of school boys being shown how to play rugby. If you say that result was because Jonny Wilkinson wasn't playing, then you have resigned to fact that England are a one man team with no depth.
England are only in the final as a result of shocking rugby by Australia and a French team that didn't even show up for the semi final. Should South Africa play to their full potential another thumping is inevitable.
SA are a team that don't rely on one member's form. For that reason England are bound to fall very short of success in a world cup where they should not have even made the semi final.
Justin
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i'm australian but i love english rugby. i love the relentless aggression, the attention to technical detail, the rolling mauls, the incessant sledging and most of all, johnny wilkinson.
i must say, i was really disappointed after the south africa match, but then johnny came back, and i never doubted that england would make the final. i was really hoping fiji or argentina would undo the boks, but it looks like england will have to do it the hard way this time around....
anyway, the final should be a fantastic contest.
ps- i've got a feeling percy will choke when it comes to the really important kicks
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I find this discussion of the 'best team' or a 'worthy winner' to be all academic twaddle. In the real world, the brightest people never make the most money or the best cook win the most Michelin stars etc, etc. To be a winner, you have to know how to handle pressure. To be the World Champions you have to win the World Cup not prance around the globe winning one off test matches.
How you win anything in life is not always pretty because you will be fought for every inch of your success. But more importantly, you need to be able to handle the pressure. For that reason and for that reason alone, my money is on the English to beat SA. SA are easily rattled. No real tough games and a near catastophic loss of discipline against Fiji make them vunerable to a tight game. The last 20 minutes will win it and I know which team I would want to be supporting if it comes to a test of nerve.
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As a Scot I have to be honest and say what impresses me most about the England team is their ability to make it happen when it really matters. No other team in the world at the moment has that incredible level of self-belief that may well see them win again.
As a Scot I also have to say that if the English media (and I stupidly thought it was the British media) could be a little more mature I would be delighted for England to win. But the behaviour of the English media over the last few weeks just guarantees that for the rest of the UK an English win would be rammed down our throats for the next four (no forty, as we have still never heard the end of the 66 football world cup win) years. It is time that the media accepted that they have a resposibility to the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland and not just to Ingerland.
To the English people (not the media) well done and the best of luck.
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Patriotism is for morons.
S.A. have only ever looked troubled in this tournament when faced with the free flow rugby of the Pacific islanders. Against grinders like Argentina and England they have strolled it, and will again.
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Just spent £700 on a ticket - If we lose hey we lose
e but it'll be a great night and England deserve the crowd to acknowledge their achievements of being the 9th best in the world and making the final...
SA are a great all-round side but if you cut out errors which they feed off and generally score all their tries from, eg. knock ons and intercept passes then England can win. they are not great from 1st phase ball so England need to keep it very tight and get away with some "professional" fouls on Du Preez as he runs the show for SA, without him I genrally think they ar eno better than England. Gomarsall needs to hound him and man mark him as he always pops up in the right places...hold on to his shirt tug him back whatever...and inally Jonny ust kick his kicks as Percy will..
England are definitely huge underdogs but they can win with a bit more lady luck!
Plus remeber there will be many more english fans out there..it will be like playing at Twickenham...
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A win is not a win, and we just have to look at Ben Johnson for proof. Just because you win doesn't mean you're the best.
Surely the win is soured when "at any cost" is in use? If you're team play badly, and win, the bitter aftertaste surely lasts a long time. What does Ben Johnson do with his time these days? I don't care.
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As an Englishman born in Durban I have mixed feeling over this final. RSA are the better all round team and without doubt are favourites to win; however, who trully believed England would beat the Aussies & French? Only the England squad presumably.
As an aside, I bet on Habana to be top try scorer & England & South Africa to win before the tournament. So this weekend I will win 2 of my 3 bets! Hansa Pilsners on me?
Both countries should be made up that their teams are going to be completing what has been an excellent tournament. May the best team win.
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I totally agree with these comments, I am and will always be an England rugby fanatic, just to see them in the Final is outstanding and a credit to the team and the "no surrender" attitude of the players. I for one didn't see them getting past the Quarters.
My heart says there is a chance that England can pull it off and there is. BUT and this is a big BUT on paper the SA are too strong, skillful and inventive. For this to happen the England team will need to go up not 1 but 3 gears and play the rugby we have not seen from them in this tournement so far, either that or SA will have to have a bad day at the office. Whatever the situation I don't think this will be a 36 - 0 result again, it will be a closer game and for the sake of the sport I hope it is a nail biter to the end.
My head is telling me SA to win by 5 points. I hope my head is wrong come on England!!!
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To Derek -no 48
it would also make us back to back World Cup Champions
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A message for Derek Fallon - why would England winning set back rugby 20 years? Is that because you believe the future of rugby is teams like Wales throwing the ball around and conceeding 30 points?
Strangely, I think England and South Africa have switched places from 4 years ago. The difference? England are now in the final whereas SA couldn't get past the Quarters in 2003.
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The sheer fact that the entire rugby world are keen to see the england loose, speaks for itself! The performance the lads have put in is inspirational.
So to all you aussies, all blacks and frenchman....enjoy the game from home....not Paris!
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Aye, Derek's right. England beat Australia purely out of luck, and beat France out of luck too. If they beat SA that will also have been sheer luck, and in his mind England will also win all future matches out of sheer luck too.
ON second thoughts perhaps Derek's mind is where opinions like this should stay :)
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As an Irish supporter I hope the Cup comes back to the Northern Hemisphere, I am also happy that Ireland will be represented in some way in the final with the excellent referee Alain Rolland. I will be routing for England but my head tells me I have got it wrong and SA will do it. I am expecting a very close game and I think Martin Johson has called it right for the last few England games and that is if they are within 3 points at the 60 minute mark they find this resolve from somewhere and make it happen. Looking forward to it and was delighted to see not as many easy win's in this competition which proves the smaller unions are getting better which is good for the game. Now the IRB need to show their long term vision and award the 2015 RWC to one of the smaller unions to promote the game.
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WITH REF TO #24 SOUTH AFRICA 2007 ARE ENGLAND OF 2003. THEY HAVE BEEN THE FORMIDABLE TEAM WHO HAVE BRILLIANCE IN ALL AREAS.
BUT ENGLAND 2007 ARE NOT AUSTRALIA OF 2003, (STICK WITH ME, I'LL MAKE SENSE EVENTUALLY!) AND, I PRAY, ALAIN ROLAND WILL BE MORE IMPARTIAL THAN THE DECIDEDLY DODGY ANDRE WATSON. THE MORE I WATCH THE 2003 FINAL, THE MORE WINKS I NOTICE BETWEEN ANDRE AND GEORGE GREGAN! OUR SCRUM CONCEDED MORE PENALTIES IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE FINAL THAN IN THE WHOLE OF THE TOURNAMENT!
GOD KNOWS I WANT THE LADS TO WIN BUT THE WINNER WILL BE RUGBY BECAUSE, YES,WHEN IT HITS THE FAN, THE BEST 2 TEAMS WITH GUTS FROM THE NH & SH WILL COMPETE AND RUGBY AND IT'S NEW LEGION OF FANS WILL BE THE WINNER!
C'MON THE LADS AND MAKE ENGLAND AND POMS WORLDWIDE AS PROUD AS WE WERE 4 YEARS AGO
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Will england win? Its possible. Yes there are problems in the Domestic game and set up here. But when it comes to style of play can everyone stop falling for this SH Kiwi led propaganda of how rugby should be played. Rugby should be played to win. If you want to watch open expansive rugby, try 7s or dare I suggest it League if you want missed / broken tackles. The heart the England team and a few other teams have shown has been good for the sport full stop. C'mon the Lads
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Who cares if England play "ugly" or "narrow" rugby. They are getting results and the last time I looked it was all about winning and not that they looked good and lost by three points...
SA do have the better side (on paper) and have beaten Eng in the World Cup and before, but then so did Australia and France.
Saturday's game will be ugly, ferocious and tight... Just the way England like it.
The only way SA will win is to throw it around and get it out to the likes of Habana. However I can't see them doing this in the final due to nerves.
England by 3 points is my prediction! And yes, i will have a bet as well...
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"We last beat South Africa this time last year."
You do realise that was effectively a youth side that toured for SA right (drawing the series)?
And how in the world does the fact the Montgomery is top scorer give people hope because "he must have an off day" or the fact that we lost 36-0 hence advantage us becuase we "aren't over-confident" and are a completely changed side, never mind that the game plan is identical and that people said before the humiliation that it should just be a matter of a few points difference and "if we're there at 60 minutes we could win it."
This is a side that has come alive at 60 against us.
They have the fear factor and the form which is why we don't have half a chance.
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I'm a Scot and would like to echo the sentiments of David #49.
The term 'ugly' has been bandied around which appears to be used as a metaphor for 'unfamiliar'.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you only have one eye (as many commenters seem to) you will not be able to get perspective or depth on what you see.
England do have good backs, but why would any team not play to their superiority (ie the forwards)?
I would advise England to ignore the 'boring' and 'ugly' tags and just get on with it.
In 1991 the same lines were being used, England played a more expansive game in the final and promptly lost. It would be a shame if they listen to this stuff now.
I would like to see England win as it will be a vindication of the multi-faceted rugby style of the northern hemisphere.
Good luck to them on Saturday.
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The S Africans were gifted all but one of their trys and lets face it any one can score from any distance out if there is no one to stop them!
Bring them on this is one game they won't have so easy.
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Post ~#48 "England are in the final purely on luck." Nonsense. They're in the final because they have fought like bloody hell to get there, as have South Africa. Knock-out competition in any sport is more about mental toughness than physical talent, and England have shown it in abundance.
That said, I'm still gobsmacked that we're in the final, and still confidently predicting (as I have for the last 3 weeks) that we're going to get hammered! Whatever the result, I will happily congratulate the World Cup winners for doing the business when it matters. Isn't that what the whole thing's about?
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Ah the interesting grumblings of an assumedly Irish fan. What is the point of a knock out competition if not to win games? What makes a great team if not to be able to grind out victories under huge pressure whilst not playing to full potential? (Quote Chealsea, Man Utd and Arsenal in recent seasons - even Liverpool in the Champ League if you wish!).
The two teams in this 2007 RWC final are the two that have managed to win games ugly when required. SA vs Tonga, Fiji and possibly an Argentinan side who where overwhelmed by the occasion. ENG vs Samoa, Tonga, Aus and France. They are both deserving as they held their bottle, and most importantly delivered mentally, defensively and in attack at crucial times when it really mattered on the big stage.
This looks set to be an awesome, physical battle in the early stages. If Englands players are not massively up for this game after humiliation in the group stages, then my name is Roger Rabbit.
Mr Rolland will have his hands full in the first 10 mins, expect 3 or more flare ups, some huge hits, and possibly a sin bin in that time.
I'm sure I'm like you all when I say....roll on Saturday!! Allez Les Blancs!!
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If CJ Van Der Linde scrummages like he did against Argentina (he was at ninety degrees most of the time) then Alain Rolland will penalise him at every scrum. England should have the edge in the front row but it is essential that the superb Matfield and Botha are not allowed to dominate the line out. Parity there would give England a real boost.
With the greatest of respect to Fiji and Argentina I would have backed England to have scored tries in those games as well, particularly given the number of unforced errors by Argentina, and I don't think that there is much doubt that England have had the tougher route to the final. What is perhaps more pertinent is that RSA have also conceded tries on a fairly regular basis.
Logically RSA should win but can we please stop billing this as the free flowing South Africans against the obdurate English? RSA are undoubtedly an admirable side but their rugby is hardly cavalier.
Just under a year ago I was at Twickenham watching two poor sides slug it out in a game that was won by a try from Phil Vickery. If you had told me then that I was watching a preview of the World Cup Final I would have laughed in your face. Such is the capricious, and wonderful, nature of sport.
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Well, here in SA, there are 44 million sports mad Saffers itching for the weekend. Should be a fantastic spectacle to end a fantastic World Cup. My heart and head say SA, but on the day, anything is possible. Congrats to England for turning it around. Also, don’t worry about these “boring rugby” comments.... The Aussies have been saying this to us for years. Just laugh it off and take it with a pinch of salt.
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It'll all come down to which side holds its nerve best. England did that against Australia and France and they'll be happy to be underdogs again.
The Boks clearly have the best players - and I am worried that they won't bottle it.
Whatever, it's been a great World Cup. Incidentally I'd have thought the French would have lynched Laporte rather than make him Minister of Sport. What a mess he made of what should have been a great team!
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Both England and SA deserve to be in the final, no matter how they got there. England ground out two tough victories and SA looked scrappily impressive in their two knock-out matches.
I am supporting South Africa and really hope they win, however this England team has an impressive record of squeezing out victories.
On the SH teams - please don't lump SA in with Aus and NZ, we take a fair amount of flack from these countries ourselves, and would ideally want to play in the 7 nations (Same Time zones etc. Laugh off the Tri-Nations pantomime.
If SA are leading by less than 10 with 20 minutes to go England will win.
Good luck to both teams.
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The reason England beat both Aus and France is that they didn't allow them to play the game THEY wanted. Due to this, both sides went away from their natural gameplan and you could clearly see they lost their bottle. SA have not PROPERLY been tested, their previous result against England is now irrelevant, whilst the players are the same, the team they will be facing on Saturday is totally different as their mentality is unregonisable. The odds may be with SA but after two wins over two of the tournament favourites when we were previously written off can anyone really say they CAN'T do it? It's going to be a great game and win or lose, I'm a proud supporter of England Rugby.
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First of all, well done England, that was pure guts! But lets clarify one thing, people in this blog mentioned that SA scored "opportunistic" tries.. but the reality is that the extreme sustained pressure at breakdowns and in the tackle that the boks enforce on the oppostion starts to cause the desperate passes and bad options that lead to those "opportunity" tries. If England don't watch out for that, and maintain composure under the pressure, once again they'll be engulfed by the Boks. Good luck on Saturday, either way, its going to be a classic!
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I can not believe the continuous tripe from individuals regarding how England play boring rugby and how its setting back rugby 20 years (previous idiots post). Rugby is a game of forwards and backs, of scrums and lineouts, of penalties and tries, and ultimately, of scoring more points than your opponent. BA has always stated that you play whats in front of you, whether that means going for a try, or a drop goal, or forcing the opposition into giving a penalty away through constant pressure, etc. Personally, I feel England are trying to play a more attacking form of Rugby but they are not as clinical as other sides. However, in the end, winning is what matters and England are just one game away from making history. So, all you sad individuals who, for whatever reason, begrudge England their place in the final, please grow up and admire a team that has shown more bottle and mental strength than the likes of NZ, Aus, Ireland and France. Come on England.
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#58 Alex
What sort of comparison is that?
Ben Johnson took drugs. That was OUTSIDE the rules of the sport in which he was competing. Are you suggesting that England are playing outside the laws of rugby?
There are several free resources on the internet explaining what is and is not legal in RU, perhaps your time would be better spend reading that material rather than spouting complete and utter cra*p.
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Derek Fallon.... what planet are you on... in the final purely on luck?? We have deserved to win both the Q/F and S/F as we wanted it more. Just because we dont score many tries and throw the ball around does not make us boring, i hate watching one sided games the best games of the tournament have been Eng v Aus - Fra v NZ - Eng v Fra becuase they were close and hard fought... if you want one sided games where 1 team looks good go watch the Scottish premier league..... now thats boring...
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'journalists too wouldn't be human if their assessment was entirely unclouded by patriotism or the needs of the market they serve'.
No mate, they would be GOOD JOURNALISTS. Unlike childish sports bloggers.
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U English supporters are so fickle. If I remember correctly u were all slagging your team just a few weeks ago, and now you all believe that you deserve to bring home the cup. Am a South African fan and believe that both teams have the potential to win this thing and that is why the final should be one of the best. There are positives about both teams and am sure the winners will deserve to hoist the cup. Wouldnt want it any other way. Good luck to both teams. Should be a great game.
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As an Irish fan (no it has not been a good world cup), lets just hope it is good final. Secondly lets hope that Will Grennwood is not let anywhere near a commentary box ever again. The commentary from the other channel has been poor throughout, but someone please tell Greenwood that he was actually commentating on SA vs Argentina last Sunday and England were not on the pitch at any stage. If i had just have been listening I would have thought it was England v France - the replay.
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Anna Charlton mentioned Percys highlights earlier what about Beckham? He is a good player but also a very 'metrosexual' male and probably spends more time making himself pretty than most females do.
Thats got absolutely nothing do with how he plays.
Anyway BOKS TO WIN! They have been consistent and deserve to win. But England have been impressive and if SA lose they have still made us very proud!
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Here we are England in the final of another World cup final, yes I will say it again ANOTHER world cup final and I can't beleive all the negative comments that have been in the media. Can't we just wallow in the glory of beating sides that were supposed to be to good and look forward to the final.
I can't see any other result than a win for England; South Africa have the talent but they lack the experience, belief and spirit.
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Derek Fallon-Ireland may have beaten England 6 months ago but I am pretty sure they wouldn't have a chance now. And I don't think you can compare the England side now with the one which played so badly against SA earlier in the tournament. And how exactly would a win (if it happens) based on pride, blood and guts, passion, commitment and team loyalty put rugby back 20 years. Surely these are good things and ones sides should be aspiring to? Am sure every coach in the world would agree with me.
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England they are going to score, but it is unlikely to win against strong and well organised springboks
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Right on Andy - No.75
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"29. John Grint" - If SA wins they WILL be true world champions!
Let's face it, the best rugby team for the last 4 years are the All Blacks and to call yourself true world champions, you have to compare yourself against them, they are the bench mark!
If you look at the All Blacks results from 2004 to just before the start of the RWC, they only lost 5 games to 2 opponents - South Africa won 3 times & Australia twice. Also remember that there was a Lions tour in 2005 and they had tests against ALL the major rugby countries.
07/08/2004 23 Aus / 18 NZ
15/08/2004 40 SA / 26 NZ
07/08/2005 22 SA / 16 NZ
03/09/2006 21 SA / 20 NZ
30/06/2007 20 Aus / 15 NZ
Source: http://www.allblacks.com/index.cfm?layout=2005results
And lastly, did England play against the All Blacks in this years RWC?
Doesn't matter who wins on Saturday, the winner will be worthy Champions!!!!
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As a Saffer I honestly can't predict who will win the final. There are so many different aspects to the game that could turn it either way. Don't think we've been particularly good in the quarters or semis but have come through and am hoping we are saving the best for last.
Agree that it really doesn't matter how you do it and England's games have been fantastic to watch despite the few tries. I couldn't care less if the final's a kickfest as long as we win.
Come on South Africa!
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Max said: "The England Team and their fans EXPECT to win and PROCLAIM it all the time.... I think the pressure are more on THEM to live up to their BIG words."
I'm wondering which parallel universe you are living in, Max. As a Kiwi I have to say that I haven't heard or read a word to suggest that the England team expects to win (nor that that it expects to lose either. Well, what idiot would psych himself out of the match by thinking that?) It has, IMO, been nothing but humble and realistic. It has every right to some confidence after its superb comeback over the past few weeks but you imply an arrogance that simply is not there.
As for the fans, well they've been waiting for four years to have something to cheer about! Give them a break: what are they supposed to do? Carry on saying their team is hopeless? Hardly true, is it!
Also, I'd just like to add that in amongst all this talk of individual Bokke players being much better than individual England players we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this is a team game - and the England team has already proven itself to be much greater than the sum of its parts.
Go England!!!
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Just a note to all ENG fans commenting about this is a perfect time for revenge after their humiliating 36-0 defeat by the springboks, just remember AUS who wanted to avenge the 2003 RWC final, and also NZ who wanted to avenge their loss to France in the 1999 semi, as those resuts have taught us, you should not be looking for revenge in the RWC.
And no its not cast in stone that your pack will dominate the forwards battle, they are the same group of guys that took on the Boks in the pool game, and we know how that ended.
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Although I'm from Argentina and South Africa took rightfully our place on the finals I wish the best to the boks. Good luck South Africa!
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What teams have South Africa bettered to get to the final?
Who have England had to overcome to get this far?
It's not over by a long shot.
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Well done England for getting this far. The spirit and determination shown has put our Irish team to shame and restored more than a little pride to the 6 Nations. Nevertheless I feel the final may be a bridge too far. England have a pack to match SA up front for 60 minutes, but not the whole match and the backline lacks the cutting edge that will be required.
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The first try will win the game.
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All this we are the underdogs, we pull it of when it counts, we beat AUS & FRA is a load of garbage. England as I recall are the defending champs, ARG would be a team more worthy of the title underdogs. Granted England have been plagued with injury of their apparent entire one man team (Wilkinson). From all this I can only make the English to be nothing but a bunch of load mouthed louts, comparable to the arrogance of the American populace. Im hoping for a close game this weekend, but after reading these comments, I hope the English get a hiding.
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I keep hearing it's a 50:50 match. It's not. SA are a far superior outfit with talent all over the park. Speed and strength and ruthless accuracy in all their key positions. They are going to murder us, except there is this niggling little voice in the back of my head that's been there for the last 2 weeks saying "We couldn't just bl**dy well win this, could we? We couldn't just nick this one?". If any one can. England can.
PS If the only comment you have to make is to correct spelling or use of words then please reserve your correspondence for someone who cares. This is a rugby forum, not school. I know what they mean.
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Post 52 - Justin
You and Derek Fallon clearly have a number of things in common, uppermost of which is a total lack of understanding about international Rugby.
Please keep your absurd drivel to yourself next time.
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what a bunch of arrogant english guys who have only negative things to say for the SA team. Stats my friends says it all and final or no final SA is gonna give you at least 20 points remember this........You think you know it all.....Dont forget we won it in 1995 against NZ ,,,so we know what pressure is all about/...........GO YOU BOKKE
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Derek Fallon wrote:
"England are in the final purely on luck. They play a style that would make watching paint dry more interesting. Ireland beat them 43-13 six months ago and SA beat them 36-0 three weeks ago. If they did by some miracle win it would set Rugby back 20 years".
An ill-though out comment, serving no purpose other than as a personal grip and moan - If you're English you should be ashamed of yourself. If not, then I see the reason for the whinge!
Derek, you can spout this rubbish till the cows come home and if England win, no-one will care what you think anyway..! :-)
Personally, I prefer to think positively and appreciate the fact that the England lads worked hard as a group to get there at all.
My lad pays for Clifton under 11's and I am involved with the junior league and tournament set-up in the South-West. We have seen an enormous increase in young lads desperate to learn and improve since 2003. If England win, please tell me how another huge influx of young hopefuls can be deemed as "Setting Rugby back 20 years".
Derek, I await your response.
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My only hope for the final is that Will Greenwood is not in the commentary box and preferably not in the country. If I can just be granted this small wish, I will be a happy man.
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"U English supporters are so fickle. If I remember correctly u were all slagging your team just a few weeks ago, and now you all believe that you deserve to bring home the cup."
If we'd been saying a few weeks ago that we deserved to bring home the cup then we would also have deserved to be sectioned, and you no doubt would have been mocking our misplaced optimism.
Things change mate. Sometimes slowly sometimes faster than you can spit. A few week ago the England team was derisory and we derided them. Today they look like winners and there are expectations that go with that.
Harping on about the past - even the recent past - is futile and produces specious arguments. It's what's going on now that counts.
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No all english fans wern't slagging off the team a few weeks ago. You could hear them singing sweet chariot at the end of the SA game. We were concerned but still wear the t shirt, sing the songs and follow the team no matter what!!
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It "should" be a great game between two sides which were a bit (in England's case more than a bit) under-rated when the tournament kicked off. "Should" is the operative word, though- my fear as a neutral is less that it will be an attritional forward battle because that has its own fascination for the true afficionado but that the game could just degenerate into a brawl. Both sides have key men who're going to be singled out for close attention by the opposition (the two scrum halves, Wilkinson, Montgomery, Habana, Robinson) and neither is backward in coming forward in the physical side of things. I hope Mr Rolland will get a firm grip on things from the off even if that means a couple of yellow cards in the first twenty minutes- better that than letting lots go and finally producing a card which turns the game late on for an offence no worse than half a dozen committed earlier (which was what Walsh did in the SA/Arg semi-though in that case too late to make much difference).
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I cannot wait for this final. Both teams fully deserve to be there purely for the fact that they have beaten the teams placed in front of them when it matters.
It's obvious that the South Africans are favourites to win, as were the French and the Aussies against the English, but I think this will be a real close, intense match in a similar vein to the France-England match. It's too big a stage for either side to starting throwing the ball around unless it's 100% on.
At the end of the day, the best team on Saturday will undoubtedly deserve to win the trophy.
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nicolas....what has 1995 got to do with 2007
yes your 1995 team knew what pressure was all about but do your 2007 team?!
and if you actually read the comments a lot of people are trying to find weaknesses in the SA team, and most you will find have an air of respect for the players and have to concede that they have an amazing team....but what sort of fans would we be if we didnt back up our own team
I have said this before and i will say it again....this is SA's cup to lose as much as its englands to win. It's not me being arrogant (despite the complete irony of your post being incredibly arrogant) its just me stating truth, SA SHOULD win it, but thats the problem, and i have a sneaking suspicion they wont
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11. You're really kidding yourself aren't you. England are the Germany of rugby? No they are the England of rugby - have won precisely one world cup at both sports and play the same dull style, while massively underachieving considering the numbers that play the game in your country. You'll have to do a hell of a lot more winning before you can consider yourselves the "West Germany of rugby".
After SA thrash you, the England media will no go into their predictable cycle of naval gazing and lamenting before once more launching into their "we're the best in the world" mode the next time you win a game
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England have just played 4 world knock out games and won them all. This included 2 of the Cup favourites and our arch rivals and one of them had home advantage.
Englands performances in those games were immense. We should have beaten the Aussies by 10 plus more points.
SA have not had a hard game all tournament (including England at their worst). Beating FIJI and Argentina is not the hardest route on the planet. The FIJI game at one stage was very close indeed and the Argies made so many mistakes it was easy for SA.
England are on a roll and how many times in sport history does a team start slowly/badly then peak at the right time (Italy in world Cup Footie for eg.
I think England will win 17-10 or thereabouts.
Final thought. English Fans and SA fans will be watching the final to see if THEIR teams wins.Sadly for them most Australian,New Zealand, Welsh, Scottish and Irish fans will be watching and analysing from a neutral point of view.
Enough Said
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"Liquidize your assets..."
Hahahahahahaha!!
Well spotted !!!
I'll have an Wallaby Burger with a side portion of French Fries... and for desert....?? let's hope it's a Springbox smoothy!!!!!
COME ON ENGLAND ! ! ! ! !
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It is important for even us fans to try our level best to be objective in our way of thinking(we only lie to ourselves otherwise)
If we are going to forget about the 36-0 drubbing england got then we have to forget about everything else as well.
How will England win this match?
1. dominate with the forwards at scrumtime,rucks,mauls and lineouts.
2. Wilkinson must have a sound tactical kicking game.
3. Forwards must protect wilkinson to have sufficient time for dropgoals.
4. forward dominated drives and keeping close to the pack in redzone of Boks to score tries.
5. No mistakes
How will the Boks win?
1. Counter the english at scrum time.
2. contest lineouts and use mauling only to get english backline on the backfoot then play wide(not in own half)
3. Burger, and Du preez put pressure on the english 9,10
4. Butch will have to be on song with tactical kicking into corners for lineouts
5. keep watch over referee's input as that can cause problems.
Result.
the biggest concern for the boks are scrumtime, if they counter that they should win
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nicolas #90:
If you know what arrogance is then maybe you should reflect on the irony of your comment.
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As a S.African I just want to say that our boys in green & gold have made us proud. They've played with heart and a fervour that did not exist a few years ago. Likewise the English have shown what they're capable of when put in the trenches and have impressed the world many times over with their inspiring performances. Time to give credit where it's due and focus on the game. CAN'T WAIT !!!!!!!!
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If South Africa really play, they will win, but let's face it nobody ever 'plays' in a World Cup Final. People are slagging off all the kicking and the tough defences at this world cup, but remember Cape Town? Ping pong, territorial kicking and a nerve jangling wait for the winning drop goal. So this is nothing new. Nobody dares throw the ball around when the Cup is at stake.
That suits England because we aren't confident enough to throw it around anyway. But the Springboks have a dilemma. If they sit back, Jonny might beat them. They've been waiting for mistakes and counter-attacking, but if we give them the ball and tackle the way we've been tackling, they will have to try to find a way through. They will either run it and wear us down, or they will run out of patience and kick it, which is the game we want them playing.
South Africa are the stronger side, with the more potent finishing, but if England play tight and edge it in the forwards, it will be another titanic struggle just like the last two.
Could go either way, but I suspect it depends more on how the Springboks play, rather than how England plays.
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Too many numpties post on these boards! So people are saying that because the Boks run it a bit more and generally have better players they deserve to win, is that it? So you all think that NZ deserved the 1995 RwC?? They had much better players and played a running game...anyone agree???? Thought not!
SA will deserve to win only after they put more points on the board than us, end of.
As for the pool game well we had no fly half, a couple of unfit props, Rees at seven was out of his depth (though he will improve), our best player by a mile limped off, the coaches tactics were woeful (using a long drop out game), the scrum half for that game was well and truly dropped for a better one plus all our backs seemed to want to be the worst kicker on the field.....and finally Joel Judge (ironic name for a crap ref) will not be the referee. There are still decisions he gave to the Boks in that game that I still don't understand after 20 years following the game.
36-0 it was and it was humiliating watching it in St Denis with a particulary obnoxious French woman behind me but that is gone. The only relevance it has for this game is it may make the Boks players a little more arrogant than they are already and it will put that little bit more fire into bellies of the England pack!!
If when the pressure is fully on and the Boks don't fold or lose their tempers and win then good luck to them and I'll drink to that but if they don't I'll drink a darn sight more.
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Blah blah blah. Form before this world cup means nothing. That's why we are where we are. If we play better on the day, we'll win.
Serve it cold, Lads.
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The force is with England now. They are playing like a team with nothing to lose who can hardly believe they have managed to get the final.
If SA are to win, they will need to break England in the first half and get a good lead. If England manage to keep within a few points with 20 minutes to go, the pressure will come down on SA (who are favourites).
SA are the team under pressure to win this game and we've see what pressure does to teams like France, NZ and Aus. Throwing the ball around and smashing opponents suddenly doesn't look so attractive.
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Well my nails are gone, but I can say that I'm very proud of the turnaround by the English team. It has been a tough few weeks (okay a tough 4 years) but they have managed to pull off the unthinkable and get themselves into a position to pull off a minor miracle. In their way is what I consider to be one of the most dangerous and skillful teams in the World. On paper SA should win. My head is in agreement, my heart hopes for an upset. Most of all I hope that we have a spectacle worthy of a World Cup Final. Good luck to both teams.
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Rather than setting the game back 20 years; It is a guaranteed fact that an England win will again encourage thousands of youngsters to enter the game, rather than dreaming of being over-paid, prima donna, perma diving footballers. Hopefully the same will happen in RSA so that their team can start to reflect the population through skill coming through the ranks, rather than political interference. Politicians stay out of sport!
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nicolas-just exactly how many guys in the currant SA squad played in the '95 final? Most of the posts on this blog have been about supporting your country-not necessarily being arrogant. I concede the point that some of the English ones have been a bit arrogant but I hardly think that, given the tone of your post, you can complain about that! I hope you will be eating humble pie come Sunday but if SA win then it will be me tucking in.
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I cannot believe the attitude of some people on this blog. To call England boring when Argentina have clearly been playing in at least as boring a fasion all WC (imo more so) but cos it's England everyone draws attention to us. I agree with Dallagio when he says we have played more rugby in the Qf and SF than oz and Fra. I think the sight of Robinson running in broken play is one of the most beautiful sights in the game and if it happens just once in a fantastically tight game it makes it all the more special. The fact that England have clearly dealt with pressure better than any team in the comp (bar SA, we haven't seen how they'll react in a really tight game) makes them worthy winners. I'm not going to be so arrogant as to predict an Eng win (no doubt such a prediction would be regarded as classic English arrogance by SH bloggers) but i will say that Eng players (just over Arg) should be regarded as heroes for the huge courage they have displayed. If Eng lose on Saturday i will (as the majority of Eng rugby fans will) be gracious in defeat and congratulate SA. Uuuuhhhhhhh and i'm spent.
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Well done to both teams for getting to the final.
The match will be won by the team that has the most self belief and control. They are both closely matched in the pack, and that is where the ball will be won. England have built very strong self belief and have momentum in this area. SA are a good side but tend to be arrogant and expect to win - that is their real weakness. Many of these England players have been in the final before and that counts when push comes to shove and the pressure is on. SA will bottle it at key moments and watch out for their frustration. They will surely show it and they will give away needless penalties. Its all in the head - get the head right and the body obeys. I just hope that whoever loses the battle shows respect and valour in defeat. That is why Rugby Union is such a great game.
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Oh my goodness gracious me. I have never read such utter kak about England rugby since the '99 world cup when SA demolished England. You all speak of experience determination etc. Yes, England have made a great turnaround since another hiding by SA but do you honestly think they deserve to beat South Africa who have been unbeaten this world cup - who have the higherst try scorer for the tournament and highest points scorer.
Yes England have fought back and managed to catch France and Australia on bad days... and once again that is what they have to rely on. 3 times not so lucky I'm afraid. All you England supporters have done is live up to the reutation of being a bunch of winging Poms. Perhaps it's because you're like a flock of sheep and are influenced by what the press say. Lets be realistic here and take all the if's and but's out of Saturday's final... Almost every comment posted by an English has had an if or a but leading to their prediction. Stop hoping and open your eyes and realise that England dreaming!!!-
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all the talk is about johnny wilkinson - i think butch james has been one of the most impressive flyhalves at this world cup - he has shut out johnny wilkinson before and i dont see why he shouldn't do it again.
sure johnny kicked england to victory against france - but he had a poor game for 70 minutes.
SA will not allow a flyhalf to play poorly for 70 minutes and get away with it - ask argentinas hernandez.
My prediction SA 28 - Eng 12
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Can any Saffas out there tell me why Jake White always walks around scowling? My friend said it's because the biltong he's always chewing on is actually dried Kudu excrement.
Your thoughts?
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We should not lump the Saffers in with Aus and NZ. They do take stick from those two teams, and are only seen as making up the numbers in the Tri Nations, which is more about Bledisloe than anything else. If we are to lose, I would far rather lose to SA than almost any other team, and I'm afraid that is why we are so likely to lose. Bring on the 8 Nations, with Arg and SA joining the great 6. We'll have a virtual World Cup every year, and we can leave NZ and Aus to discuss how splendid they looked as they contested their sacred Bledisloe Cup.
Cone on England, it's not impossible, and it's great for rugby that the other two SH sides departed good and early.
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Grim determination can only get you so far....
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I have to agree wholeheartedly with 'Soupiels' wise comments (number 59). Both teams should feel immensely proud to have made the final of a fantastic competition. I'm just glad that it is two sides who haven't resorted to having to criticise their opponents at any point during the tournament, something which cannot be said for certain members of other sides. Perhaps they feel the need to do this, in order to deflect from the weaknesses within their own gameplans?
Q: What do you call the playoff for 7th and 8th place?
A: The Bledisloe Cup.
And finally, to all those going to Paris for the final (the Hoopers mostly), I say bonjour lads, bonjour indeed.
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I think SA and England play a very similar game, tight defence and waiting to pounce on the opposition's mistakes. Of course, this makes for very tight games when the oppositions makes no glaring errors! France made 1, try. The Argentines made far too many actually trying to play a 15 man game and got punished by SA - how many of those tries were actually through the ingenuity of the SA backs?
If this will be a purely forward based game, England will shade it, the SA scrum was coming apart against Argentina. It might also be worth targetting Burger, whose temperament gets more suspect every time I watch him. However, if SA can impose themselves then they have more than enough talent to carve up the English backline, especially Habana, Montgomery and their no 12 whose name escapes me at the moment. Can see a lot of garryowens aimed at Pietersen though.
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@ comment 71
SA were "gifted" their tries because the other side was under so much pressure!
It is the same when the English commentators said we were winning because of Argentinian mistakes ....you make those mistakes when the stakes are high and the pressure is on...and that is when the team that makes less mistakes has the edge ............I guess when SA beats England it will just be luck.........
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Refer to John Grint (#29)
Surley the team that deserves to win the world cup has to be the team that wins all their matches? The only reason why England played against better opposition than SA was because you lost against us in the group stages. Also don't forget that thet we played against Arg because the won aginst France. As a proud Bok supporter I have to admidt that if we win on Saterday, we may well be World Champs, but NZ will still be the best team in the world. The same goes for you.
Maybe that is why everbody else in the world wants you to lose, because you also think you are the best when you're not!!!
I hope you to see an SA win, but Eng have a very good chance, because they have a better front row and a better flyhalf, but thats that. SA player are better in every other dept.
Good luck to the Boks
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Does anyone have the name and number of Dallagio's PR agent? The balding, washed up old cart horse can't even get in the starting XV yet shoe-horns his way into every interview, paper and celebratory World Cup supplement.
It's like watching a former Big Brother contender tragically refuse to surrender the limelight. Only with a bigger chin and arse.
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Just come back from watching both matches.... top w/end.
However, the bok fans are an embarrassment to the spirit of rugby.... no singing, no atmosphere, no passion. Live, the final will be a boring affair as there will be nobody to have a crack with, no friendly banter, no singing, just raw aggression and arrogance.
To the French I salute you.... a top night was had by all and I am certain of this if England had lost the night would have been just as good.
Just in case you are going to the final you will need to know the words of the only SA song...
Bok Bok Bok........ good isn't it????
ALLEZ LE BLANCS
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Obviously being English myself I want England To Win. But I can't see us scoring trys against SA. But I can see SA scoring more than one try with a better set of backs,especially Habana. Johney may keep us in the game with his boot, but if the weather is bad, we shouldn't bank on this. SA will win by 15 pts
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nicolas post #102
Yes you won in 95 and politically it was beautiful but you didn't score a try..... (which has been labelled at England more times than I can be bothered to remember, even though we scored more than the French in the semi and Oz only managed one in the Quarters but heh why let the truth ruin a good argument)........and I think the MAJOR FOOD POISONING of the NZ team before the final had at least a slight bearing on things!
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As a disappointed Welshman I will be in Paris this weekend cheering on the England team and I expect them to win the final.
Before the quater final the England teams chosen failed to impress because they were not seen to be working as a team. Since then they have addressed that problem (whether by accident or by insperation is uncertain) and they are now beginning to operate to their full potential, both as individual players and as a team.
This England squad does have enough good players to match and beat the South African's especially now they have found that once missing ingredient, self belief.
So come on England "Good luck" and let's have another party.
A Welshman in Paris
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It has been fantastic reading the comments of the English fans, and one gets the feeling that they trying get themselves and their team to"believe" they can win. Both teams deserve to be in the final because they have done the business when it had to be done. For South Afrcans we remain positive because we know with no doubt that our team " believe" they can win on the day and if there is a nation that is single minded when there is goal to be had, its South Africans because nobody gives us things for free. Come Saturday a great final to be had, and what a fantastic RWC it has been.
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Forget the 36-0 loss. Forget the summer tour in SA. This is effectively a "One off" game where 2 sides are 80 mins from glory (they won't even think about losing or they wouldn't be there). I think that Alan Roland will be a big factor as he will control lets say "SA's eccentricities" in the scrum. To be honest we (Eng and SA) have had our fortunate moments in the previous games. We could have lost if the Aussies would have kicked their penalty and if Joe Worsley hadn't made that tap tackle, France would be playing on Saturday and not Friday. Just as the wrong bounce kept SA in the cup against Fiji. I believe that SA will need to get points on the board early and then keep us at bay, because if we are close, they will get nervous and with the likes of Oz Durrant will get tired. If we stop them doing that we have a chance. I have predicted every game in the world cup correctly except SA v Arg (that cost me a packet) but in all honesty I couldn't call this one. As I said it's a "one off" and it's too close to call.
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Could Hodgson post 120 get on and do some work and make up his mind on who he's supporting SA or the Mighty Whites.
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I am REALLY grtting fed up of some of the views here!
I am an absolute England Rugby fanatic, as are most england fans who post views on here. I have been saying since the tri nations that South Africa would win the world cup. I have not seen anything in this tournament, to suggest they are not favorites in the final.
This is not detracting from the fact that I will be supporting England 100% on saturday. Words cannot express how proud I am of these heroes in white who have time and again defied the odds in this world cup. The fact that in the latest world rankings England are now ranked THIRD, coupled with the fact that even I thought that they would only get to the 1/4 finals has meant that over the last 4 weeks they have made me scream and jump for joy and feel a surge of pride everytime I wear the England shirt. That is a feeling I have not felt in a long time. Reaching the final, to me, really is the stuff of dreams.
My head says South Africa to win, but all the time my team, England, are in the final I will be shouting and cheering my team on with pride and passion.
Until the final whistle blows and the medals are handed out, my heart will ALLWAYS tell me England will win. That is the team I support after all. If we do not, I will still have a smile and still be just as proud of the 15 players as I am now.
What is so wrong or "arrogant" about that?
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One more interesting fact:
In 1995 Aus lost in the QF, in 1999 they won the world cup. In 1999, Eng lost in the QF but in 2003 they won the world cup. SA lost in 2003 in the QF and here we are in the finals... I hope history repeats itself.
Another intersting thing is that Eng eliminated Aus in 2003, Eng lost to SA in 1999 and SA lost to NZ in 2003 and guess what: NZ lost the QF in 2007...
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first the praise
England deserve credit for having the mentality to turn things around after the thrashing from South Africa and even if they lose in the final they have, in my opinion, exceeded expectations.
Now the reality. England's style of rugby is awful to watch and there are players being hyped to death and labelled 'world class' when it's patently not true. Jonny wilkinson has been off form for probably 9-10 games yet he's still being considered as a god. He has missed more place kicks and tackles in this world cup than he's probably done for the last 5 years. He is a fantastic defensive player with a great boot but he is not in world class form. Josh Lewsey I think was lucky to keep his place as he hasn't been playing particularly well of late. Mike Catt was a stupid selection when there are enough good quality youngsters out there who deserved a shot. Corry is just a poor man's Dean Richards and again I think lucky to keep his place.
England have ridden their luck and got to the final it wasn't pretty nor adventurous but they are there. However, I cannot see them turning around such a difference in points against South Africa and I honestly think the boks play a far more attractive game of rugby and have far better backs than England.
If England (or indeed the Boks)win without scoring a try it'll be a damning indictment of the state of international rugby and it will not attract more people to watch the game. I will be rooting for the Boks but if England were to open up and play an attacking game I'd be just as happy to see them win. I just can't see them being that adventurous though.
Finally, could Dallaglio get any more arrogant? He's is talking to the press as if he's played in every game, captained the team and scored all the points! He's a bit player past his best and shouldn't have been selected. Still at least his desperate search for a media contract might pay off although he'll be a bore to listen to.
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So if England win will you, as an Englishman, be happy?....and as a journalist, resign?
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i fear the worst on saturday
- can england raise their game AGAIN on saturday ?
as far as the SA front row are concerned, they may not be the brute force of yesteryear, but they are a canny bunch (including du randt), and i'm not sure the scrum will be as important a battle as in the QF. lineout may be key, and here Matfield is awesome.
dupreez is also brilliant.
weak points for SA include James at fly-half, but apart from this and a few dodgy hairstyles, they are a talented team, though have yet to play any one REALLY good.
i think SA by 10 points, but i'm the bloke who put £10 on scotland to reach the semi-finals
c'mon england!!!
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May i say that i disagree that Jonny Wilkinson is the greatest kicker the world has ever seen as mentioned on this blog. I think everyone forgets a certain Neil Jenkins who is far superior to wilkinson of the tee. The man scored over a thousand points for Wales and the Lions and played in some of the worst welsh teams in living memory. If Guscott had not strode in front of him in 1997 to pinch that winning drop goal against the boks, when jenks was lined up maybe he would be remembered as being an even better player than people realise
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It seems that people are forgetting that any nation reaching a world cup final inspires the majority. Britain as a whole should be proud that England has overcome the odds to make the final. Hopefully an inspiring performance from England will encourage more youngsters into doing some form of exercise and being involved in team games. Sport is fundamental to a nation’s confidence and health and brings people together. Australia has invested impressive amounts of money in their sports facilities and generally excel on the world stage. They are a proud nation and rightly so. I also imagine that per capita their ‘health bill’ is far less than ‘fatty Britain’s’. It is a sad reflection on the Scottish that a percentage of them will be supporting South Africa… whilst no doubt munching on some deep fired mars bars, drinking Tenants extra strength and singing ‘Flower of Scotland’. I hope for a great game and, of course, England to win (by a cricket score)
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Robbo72, it's all to do with expectations. Argentina have no domestic professional league and no annual tournament against the other big nations. England have the richest governing body and the most registered players in the world, have been playing the game longest and play all of the top teams at least once every 2 years. With all of these advantages, that they haven't evolved beyond a 10-man game is a very sad indictment indeed. (But it's an even sadder indictment on Australia and France that they were unable to overcome such a limited team.)
As for the final, it comes down to 2 teams that rely largely on the mistakes of their opponents. The difference I see is that SA turn mistakes into 7 points, but England only 3, and that's where the game will be won.
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SA are a good team and if you let them stamp their authority on the game then they will punish you. This is also true of the all-blacks.
England will dominate the forward game and this will prevent the SA backs being able to play the way they want, SA have not played well under such pressure and will struggle against and England team.
All this talk of luck on both sides is true but in the most part its the kind of luck that you make for yourself through dominant play and self belief.
This england team will not be bullied into the mistakes that this requires whereas the boks have shown a tendancy to allow themselves to be durin recent matches.
So called beautiful running passing rugby only works when your opponent lets you play like that if it doesn't then you have to either force them to let you (not going to happen at a final) or play so called ugly rugby, which england have shown they can, SA haven't
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I think the english team has been very lucky. Australia only lost because they missed 3 penalties and 2 drop goals, any of these would have finished them and they would have had no answer for it. england didnt score against australia, south africa and only scored one try against france. This team is only on a win due to other teams shooting themselves in the foot. england would play new zealand in 2 weeks and lose 50 to 0.
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Well good luck to both sides for the weekend, as an avid englishman and supporter as well as being an amateur player, i wholly hope for an england victory.
Against Australia I thought we could win (remember they had no larkham and forward power) against France i thought we would lose but was gladly proved wrong.
SA though are a different outfit to both Aus and Fra, strong in the pack (especially the loose) and versatile in the backs with arguably the best scrum half in the game.
Who knows, whoever wants it most i suppose.
As for this being a boring English side, i think if you speak to most ex and current players of the game, its absorbing to watch the battle on the park and the little head to heads that appear. I think JW came off the park last saturday and stated he had never been is as much pain after a game. This is what rugby is about, heart, body and soul on the line for your team.
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I don't think England deserve to be in the final at all. They have been the worst world champions ever to grace the field of rugby. They hardly put any work in preparing for this world cup. Unlike the other teams like NZ France and Australia. I would put my money on any of those teams to beat England. England has been playing their final for the past 3 weeks and I just think that this game may be to far for them. England may say they will fight for every inch but they have to remember that both France and Australia had really poor games and they only won by a few points. I know they believe they can pull it of but I don't think they have the game to match South Africa. I don't think England can win the title but rather that South Africa will lose it.
South Africa has put a lot of work in preparing to play England in the pool stages and are well aware of what the team is capable of. I know they have gone of the boil during the pool stages and the early knock out rounds but Argetina was a good warm up to this final. They are fresher and better prepared.
But in fairness this has been one of the best world cup's ever and I'm glad England did make it through. Just shows you how fantastic this game is
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Am i the only person around that thinks that Bryan Habana is not a rugby player, just a glorified runner? yes he does have a hell of a lot of pace on him, enough to deserve his place but if you look at him tactically he almost always goes for the interception and while this works sometimes, it not always comes off. if somebody had the common sense to put a little grubber kick through behind when he tries it, then he will be completely eliminated from the game. and as for percy montgomery the only tactic there is to pressure him with a high ball and then smash him as he hits the ground. simple. take out those 2 key players and the boks back line goes to pieces.
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At the final of the rugby world cup you go back to basic rugby; playing percentage rugby and ball retention. A win is a win regales how you achieve it. No one will remember how the game was in the years to come (“expansive rugby” “open rugby” “fluid movement” – all sound bites). They will just remember that (hopefully) England won.
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Taken from the Australian just a few moments ago...
"Connolly conceded the Wallabies had been caught by surprise by how aggressively England had attacked the breakdown during the quarter-final.
"Teams used to concede the breakdown," he said. "We didn't think England would do that. We thought they would go hard at it but we never expected the ferocity they showed there or the way they over-resourced the breakdown (flooding it with five or six forwards against the three or four Australia was committing).
"The message went out. At half-time we talked about it. We talked about little else but I'm not sure the message was getting through. I think the damage was done by that stage."
I think this speaks volumes. England caught the Aussies out big time with hard fought play - and isn't this one of the major aspects of the game? Gotta give England players that one.
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as much as i would like to see england win, it probably wont happen. i know english are going to say that it was also said england wouldnt beat oz or the french but this honestly is a different situation. montgomery's kicking is fabulous and will put jonny in the shade. the english style of rugby this wc has been obviously successful in getting them to the final but sa are able to defend and their scrum is excellent as well bryan habana's ability to tear any defence to pieces. england did really really well to get this far but theur lack of ability to score tries will cost them in the end. sa are the one team that managed to score tries regularly and even managed to score a few when playing "badly" against fiji. i'm supporting england but sa will win.
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Getting married in a couple of weeks, future mother in law and father in law coming up to finalise arrangements for the big day, they'll probably ban me from marrying thier daughter when they realise I've jollied off to Paris for the weekend.
Come on England, for the sake of my future marriage!!
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As a rugby player myself, who likes to think he knows a bit about the game... for England to win they must;
1) Score more points than South Africa..........
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If there's one thing this world cup has shown, it's that the outcomes are becoming very unpredictable. From what we've seen, it seems clear that pre-tournament form/talk is a poor predictor (Ireland, Oz, NZ),'minor' nations are no longer reading the gallant loser's script (Georgia, Fiji, Tonga), and it's easier to get the tactics wrong than right (France). One thing that is clear is that big-game psychology is critical. The key test is not whether South Africa have the ability, it's whether they can produce the mentality.
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Quick analysis:
the forwards are well matched.
the back give SA the edge
defence to England
try scoring abilty to SA
right man at the right moment: England
SA are favourites. The psychological edge some have talked about is over. England have come through too much to be bothered about that now.
If England score early or get 10pts ahead, then we'll have to see what SA is made of. If SA get ahead, the game could be over soonish.
as usual it will be decided in the pack, the breakdowns and taking your chnaces.
good luck teams
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I am simply amased by some of the messages posted on this blog. The sheer arrogance and lack of humility disgusts me. I applaud Adam Hdgson who rightly points out that whichever country wins will reap the rewards of a successful touramnent and raise the profile of the sport in their respective countries. England have shown tremendous guts in turning poor results ito potentially a successful World Cup. SA on the other hand have shown the ability to finish teams off and appear to be pretty ruthless. Either way the game will be a cracker - both teams deserve a win - may it be the best team !
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It's so refreshing to read the inspired comments of Justine (no. 125). I suggest she may want to brush up on her spelling before attempting to slate the superb English supporters. I've heard of the phrase whinging poms before, but never winging poms? Is it maybe referring to the fact that England will be soaring high above the rest of the world when we are crowned world champions......again.
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