Rugby's allure fading in New Zealand (295)
- 9 Oct 07, 09:21 AM
By Sean Martin in Wellington - Could it be so? New Zealand, the country that lives and breathes rugby union, is slowly falling out of love with the game?
There was the predictable gnashing of teeth over the All Blacks’ shock World Cup quarter-final exit – it led news bulletins, dominated front and back pages, talkback radio was awash with the topic and web pages were hastily constructed on the subject.
The Foreign Minister even entered the fray to say that the referee was at fault. Heck, even the prime minister and leader of the opposition weighed in with their tuppence worth.
In fact, it seemed everyone had an opinion on why the All Blacks failed: the aforementioned referee, the rotation policy, resting players or a lack of tough matches.
While the disbelief was widespread you got the feeling it was not entirely unexpected. After all, as Kiwis we’ve all been down this road before.
It seems we’ve become somewhat immune to big-time failure.
But the reaction of many of the New Zealand public spoke volumes about how rugby is struggling to retain its place as a crucial part of our social fabric.
Many wrote letters to the editor, called in to talkback shows or wrote on chatrooms to say what was the unthinkable – get over it, it doesn’t really matter.
There was a time when the heart and soul of New Zealand communities was the local rugby club. People’s lives revolved around the game. It gave New Zealanders a sense of identity on a world stage. They were our All Blacks, they were our team, no matter where you lived. There was even an advertisement on television which had people bleeding ‘black’ blood – the implication was that we were all united by the All Blacks.
But that is changing, and it was changing before this latest disappointment, but the latest failure to capture rugby’s biggest prize may hasten that change.
Professionalism has created a divide between what used to be the ‘people’s game’ and the people. The All Blacks are no longer ‘just one of the boys’ – they are put on a pedestal, feted and praised and that relationship with the public has been lost – perhaps forever.
And rugby is losing its allure. Fewer players are now taking to the field each weekend. The number of current players in 2007 stood at 136,059 – some 5,000 less than the previous year.
The New Zealand Rugby Union is facing a battle at all levels of the game. According to a survey from Sport and Recreation New Zealand, more young boys are playing football than rugby. The NZRU has allocated NZ$25m (£9.36m) over the next three years to help arrest the slide at both age-group and club rugby levels.
And at the higher echelons of the sport the NZRU is struggling to retain its best players with foreign clubs dangling fat wads of cash, the likes of which the NZRU can’t match, in front of not only All Blacks, but also the next tier of players – thus eating into the depth that NZ rugby has for so long prided itself on.
The financial signs are not good for the NZRU either. Forget the monetary impact of failing to add the world champions tag to the most marketable team in rugby union, last year it lost almost NZ$5 million (£1.87m). And worryingly, this year it will be worse as the impact of a high NZ dollar eats into the NZRU’s bottom line even further. It does have significant financial reserves, but a good portion of this is already earmarked to help fund the 2011 World Cup on these shores.
Rugby is also facing more competition for the public’s sporting attention. The NZ Warriors playing in Australia’s National Rugby League competition captured the imagination by making the play-offs and a new professional football team, the Wellington Phoenix, has averaged home crowds of over 12,000 in its inaugural season – bigger than most crowds for the national provincial rugby competition.
Rugby remains integral to New Zealand and New Zealanders, but its grip on the nation is lessening. To win the right to host the 2011 World Cup, the New Zealand bid played on the fact that the country lived and breathed rugby.
Certainly it is hard to escape with live provincial rugby on television Thursday-Sunday and, in case you missed it, a pay-per-view channel screening only rugby – aptly named the Rugby Channel.
While the sport holds a monopoly on the back pages and the airwaves there exists a growing number who cannot be bothered with the amount of attention the sport receives. It faces a stern test to re-engage with those on the periphery to ensure the 2011 Rugby World Cup is a resounding success.
It is perhaps a sign of a nation maturing, a country more confident in itself, that it no longer needs rugby to identify who it is. It is after all, only a game.
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I'm a kiwi putting up with a nation in depression, heeeelp!! I love it when we win, when we lose i take it on the chin, because thats sport. Here are a couple of gems goin around:
Whats the difference between the all blacks and a teabag.......the teabag stays in the cup longer!!
Why is an arsonist better than the all blacks?...........An arsonist wouldn't waste 5 matches!! Ya gotta laugh or else you might cry, good world cup, well done france, hats off.
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I think it's a combination of the nation realising that All Blacks are human and not invincible. But even more, I think other sports are marketing themselves better.
The best example I have seen was on my last trip back home in June for my Dad's 60th (I live in London). There I was in the Springlands Tavern, home of the Blenheim rugby fan and real Kiwi bloke, and what were they watching on the box and shouting madly at? The netball semifinals.
Maybe we've just realised that the Boys in Black are fallible and that we're actually pretty bloody good at other sports, too.
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I believe this is the first article on this website that has mentioned that the 'peoples game' has been taken away from the people since professionalism. This isn't picked up enough by pundits, journalists, supporters etc.
As for the ABs, they should take heart from the fact that, for once (!), the rub of the green didn't favour them. When the final whistle was blown NZ had lost four very important players to injury - collins, carter, evans and kellerher. The french should have been decent and payed the ABs some "lip service."
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thanks Matt I was in Cardiff on Saturday and I’m not sure I would have taken the defeat on the as your lots did in the stadium I think the Kiwis have the best bunch of fan cant wait for a rematch in 2011 just don’t be to hard with us when we go down there for a few test!!!
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Mat
Great comment - I have been out in NZ when the All Blacks have lost and there is almost national mourning. I think a winning mentality is vital but also remember no one is invincible and in a game anything can happen.
It does seem weird that for the second time in 4 years the strongest team(s) are out.
My kiwi rellies have a full sulk on and are ignoring calls and e-mails - shame as "taking it on the chin" seems to have been forgotten. If a team is good enough the ref doesn't matter.
So England / Argentina final?
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For heavens sake get over it!!! It really is just a game, no need to get depressed, kick the cat etc. It is about time Kiwis kicked out the concept that the All Blacks are invincible. They are a good team and can beat anyone in the world on a good day but, like any team, they can have bad days. The unfortunate fact is all the other teams raise their game for the World Cup and the All Blacks just expect to win and then are totally surprised when a passionate team beats them. Previous form should be disregarded during the World Cup, national pride takes precedence and most teams display this, singing their national anthem with gusto (I'm afraid our New Zealand team don't even know the words to our anthem) and doing their countries proud. Perhaps it is time the New Zealand team were trained to sing the anthem and perhaps, for once, get the words right.
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NZRFU-welcome to the rest of the world. It is about time they faced up to the same problems every other major nation has had for a long time. Union is in 3rd place behind Aussie Rules and League in Australia yet their RFU continues to put out strong and well balanced sides (apart from the scrum which is a different issue entirely). Ireland have football and gaelic games ahead of them and, this World Cup apart, generally do well. And how hard do you think it is for the Argentinian RFU to compete with football?
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As a Welshman, i know only too well the traumas of rugby defeat, so it's a little sad to read this fascinating article. I sympathise with you New Zealand!
The last sentance was interesting, so often is it that sport is a way to express a national identity, which is a great thing, and I'd hope that in 2011 the country's passion for the sport would be re-ignited by hosting the World Cup, and as a result unite the people as was expected to happen this time.
Good luck NZ!
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This is such a sad article, when I think of NZ I think of the All Blacks... I still think they are the best rugby team in the world, its sad to think that people are losing interest in the game of rugby in NZ of all places!!!
I really thought the empire won the game for The French, forward passes resulting in tries... NZ also did not play well but they're still the better team...
I'm sure they will be back in 2011, on home soil being the favourites again! Lets hope they can reach the final then!
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I have to agree with Paddy O'Brien, blaming the ref is absolutely ridiculous. I am a referee and assessor of 24 years experience (and I'm not English either!!) and I've watched the game several times. Mr Barnes had a good game. Granted the try scoring pass looked forward, but I double dog dare you to pick that up on the park at speed. It was a short pop pass with a great many players in close attendance, very difficult believe me. At half time I mentioned to a friend that the ABs were not free and clear and in many ways the French were unlucky to be 10 pts behind. I know it is hip to blame coaches these days, but where was Aaron Mauger and why was Muliana playing centre instead of full back. Graham Henry clearly believed he could pick anybody in any position and still get a result. He's been proved wrong. End of story.
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Well, thank goodness for some mature Kiwis who must be embarrassed by some of the whingeing on certain blogs and websites. Yes it was a forward pass, but if you watch games regularly you realise that many such passes go undetected when the movement is fast. In the England-Australia game there was a blatant knock-on near the end by the Australians. Had England lost, no doubt we would have had our plethora of silly comments calling the referee a cheat, etc. If I could reiterate the comments of Matt and Jacky (1 and 2, grow up some of you!
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I thought that last little paragraph was very insightful - that maybe New Zealand as a nation have outgrown their 'we are the ABs' identity. I really hope so, I think it'd be very healthy.
I lived in NZ for three years (I'm British), and absolutely love the country & its people, but I could never really cheer for the ABs, even in the Tri-Nations, having seen just how much they dominate the culture and got bored/sick of it. (I don't want to see rugby players modelling underwear!!!)
Since it seems that the Pakeha kids are increasingly playing football, I'm wondering if, in 20 years, rugby in NZ will be more along the lines of league; dominated by Polynesians.
Whatever happens, the ABs will continue to be hugely important, but the country will begin to be represented in more ways than this all-encompassing one. It'll be a really good thing.
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Do you think the problem is that some ABs are not Kiwis? Is it that some, deep down, know they should be playing for their Island teams in the World Cup? Is it that their hearts are not quite in it?
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The All Blacks and especially New Zealand Rugby deserves all it gets. They have been creaming off the best players from the South Sea Islands to fill their national side for a long time now. Not only is it unfair it is also disrespectful to their real home nations of Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc. Perhaps the performances of these nations in these championships will make their hopefulls think twice before selecting to play for New Zealand. Without them what would the All Blacks be...
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Let's look on the positive side and say that your last paragraph was correct. I hope it is true, but some of the childish bleatings coming from those in responsible positions in the press and the government, and the hasty way in which the coach was discarded, are not the signifiers we are looking for in a nation laying claims to maturity.
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I wouldn’t push the panic button if I was a Kiwi. They'll always be rugby mad and Saturday's defeat will not change that. Having said that I was delighted to see them getting beaten. The level of cockiness from the NZ press and their lack of respect towards six nation teams is unbelievable. They were assuming the All Black would win the world cup without breaking a sweat.
Graham Henry got what he deserved. I was disgusted with the manor in which the All Blacks made a mockery of the Super 14s tournament by withdrawing most of their players from playing in order to attend conditioning camp.
New Zealand complained that the Lions were moaning too much about Brian O' Driscol. Well looks who's moaning now. To blame the referee for losing to France is pathetic. I also seem to recall that the ABs blamed the South African's for food poisoning them in 1995. If you're going to dish it out, be prepared to take it. The ABs choked again. Accept that it was your teams fault and no one else’s. Get over it.
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I feel for NZ and Australia, i guess if England had lost in the last wcup to france, Australia or wales (which could very easily have happened) we english would have been going through the same torture and blame game that the kiwis are having to endure.
No Sir Clive, no open top parade, its not difficult to imagine the c&@p that would have been flying around.
Degress and milimetres are all that seperate the top sides. Yes the underdogs prevailed at the weekend but it could have been very different.
Rugby and this fantastic competition was the winner, lets leave it at that.
To blame the referee is poor and cheap. The poor bloke must be regretting ever getting involved. so I guess there is a loser and all those who have and continue to blame him should be ashamed. It is only a game and all those who believe in it should stand up and be counted.
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Sorry Rob "not" Andrew, but why is this the second time in four years that the strongest teams have gone out? England were world ranked number 1 in 2003 when they won, and this time around South Africa were the second favourites, and Argentina are world ranked number 3.
It seems to me that the main reason both Australia and NZ are out is pure complacency. NZ had a decent lead at half time and played appallingly to not defend/capitalise on it, whilst Australia assumed England would be rubbish and believed their own hype about not having to put much effort in to get an easy victory.
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Some great comments made, I think a tournament such as the world cup can bring magical performances as well as huge upsets. The downfall with NZ was they had won the tournament before it had started. two teams who were down and out, England and France are now in the semi finals. No one of the professional sides can be ruled out and I would not be suprised to see a England - Argentina final!!
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" . . . but also the next tier of players – thus eating into the depth that NZ rugby has for so long prided itself on."
The "depth" has been achieved by offering bursaries to promising Pacific Islanders barely in their teens. This has been so successful (RWC aside) that the Aussies followed suit.
Who knows, "my" team, the Springboks might have indeed lost last Sunday to a full, proper "first" Fiji XV. But then the SA squad is not necessarily the strongest as it, just like in the apartheid days when it was eventually rightfully banned by the IRB, is still selected according to racial factors (like the NZ Maoris?).
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So, Rob not Andrew, for the second time in 4 years the strongest teams are out
In what sense in 2003 were England, ranked 1 in the world and off the back of a 6N grand slam and wins against NZ and Aus in the own backyard, NOT amongst the strongest?
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Before the match, most of the NZ commentators were very sure that this match would a formality.That is called arrogance.
After the defeat, all the excuses are used:the referee, the coach,the tactic,why not the wheather, but never the fact that France was better.That is called arrogance.
If the All Blacks want to remain the beautiful team we respect and admire, it's probably more useful to analyse calmly and fairly the reasons of the defeat.
The arrogance is blind and NZ must now open wide its eyes.Its what we, French, lovers of the beautiful rugby NZ has always given to the world are expecting.
See you in 2011.
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To borrow an expression from Umaga. "Sook"
New Zealand, stop being such sooks. You lost. Stop blaming everyone but yourselve.
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hugh, i suspect the AB's look less AB when you have McCaw and other non-kiwi players of euro-descent looking rather foolish when performing the haka - it looks rather transparent and desperate
for the pure kiwi-rugby experience watch the kiwi's v aussies at league this sunday - now that is what you call real rugby passion
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So Rob(not Andrew) Twice in 4 years the best teams are out? Can't agree there
Ok Fact. Last World Cup the best team won. They topped the world rankings, they had beaten everyone home and away over the previous year and they just were a superb bunch of talented blokes who worked for each other and Won. It wasn't pretty but they won.
The AB's choked again as they have before. They are a talented bunch but only human and sometimes they lose. It's a shame but tournament sport is like that sometimes. I.M.O we needed this world cup not to be the All Blacks show and having a North V South Final is good for the world game
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The All Blacks are consistently the best international rugby team year in and year out. It is not so much that they peak before the World Cup Finals it is down to the fact that they choke when the big game really matters and things do not go their way. They lost to a forward pass - tough . To many times I have seen the Kiwis score from a forward pass, after putting a foot into touch and obstructing and late tackling. I have even witnessed a try at Twickenham, by England on a screen as big as an apartment block to then see it disallowed. They are small town boys ( no insult, I wish I was ) and cannot perform at the highest level.Kiwis could also take a leaf out of the Aussie fans book and be gracious in defeat .
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Another reason for the falling numbers playing RU in NZ is that "white" parents are frightened to let their kids play with the Maori kids. The Maori are so much bigger that this has led to some serious injuries in junior games. Hence the appeal of less contact sports such as football.
And yes, NZ do need to grow up, abit like England football fans do after we inevitably get knocked out of World Cups.
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Hugh, you might have something there regarding the Islanders, perhaps commitment to the cause is more monetary based than heart based...???, look what can be achieved by sheer will power in the case of Argentina and complete lack of it with Ireland who were the most disappointing of all the teams in this tournament. It used to be you got blood and guts with them with little or no quality. Now they have (on paper) a quality side but no blood and guts. Pity......
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This is nothing new. Rugby was already losing its dominance over NZ culture at the time of the 1981 Springbok Tour. Since that time, worshipping the All Blacks has been optional.
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One point made by Philippe St. Andre seems to be particularly relevant in explaining the shock defeats of New Zealand and Australia - the regular experience of the English and French players in knockout competitions at the top level. The English and French players have to deal with relegation in the premierships and the Heineken Cup is an ultimate knockout competition. Perhaps the All Black players coming to Europe at the end of the World Cup, and still young enough to return to New Zealand before the next, will gain a mental toughness to go with their undoubted talent. The English and French players may not have the same level of skill and athleticism as their Southern Hemisphere counterparts, but boy do they know how to "dog" out a win when it is needed.
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I think the comments written about the referee are appauling and if that is the attitude of New Zealand people they should not have the right to host the World Cup in 4 years, give it to one of the progressing Nations.
New Zealands game is BASED on flat passes, with many of them being forward and the number of high tackles commited is a disgrace and I'm sure will not be sorted until someone gets seriously hurt.
Well done France, you've taken the most arrogant Rugby Nation out of the World Cup and for that... I salute you :)
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Hugh, get a life. Is Mike Catt English? Is Kevin Peterson English? Lennox Lewis? Why then is Mills not a kiwi (in your view) just because he moved to NZ at the age of 3? Or do you only apply your pathetic small mindedness to NZ? Is Isaac Boss Irish? 10 of the Samoan team were born in NZ. Learn a thing or two about history and immigration trends before you speak, please.
I do not blame the referee for the result. As a Kiwi, I say the better team on the day won. NZ were out-passioned. For anyone to call NZ 'chokers' actually belittles the quality of the French team and their outstanding performance on the day.
However, there are still some serious questions Paddy and the IRB should answer. I was 80m away in the Millenium Stadium and could clearly see straight away when the pass was thrown that it was forward. The yellow card was an awful decision - never a yellow card for just obstruction. Compare that with the use of an elbow to the face of a South African by a Fijian player the next day, seen by the TJ, reported to the referee, that resulted in just a penalty. You tell me what's worse?
Barnes only did his first test match earlier this year. The only reason Paddy's bleating is because Barnes should never have been given this game in the first place. And now he's got the boot for the rest of the Cup. Tri-nations champions v Six nations champions, WC quarterfinal, and we have a refree with less than one years experience at test level. Paddy should admit his mistakes, not lambast his country.
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Re: Hugh
To suggest that some of the kiwis' hearts are not quite in it as a reason for their loss is a baffling comment. They're international rugby players representing a nation where rugby is more of a culture than a sport. And you think some of them go into matches half-heartedly? Baffling comment. The point about poaching players is also highly contentious as a lot of New Zealanders end up playing for the polynesian teams and not just the other way around.
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Rob wrote:
It does seem weird that for the second time in 4 years the strongest team(s) are out.
Sorry Rob, but the strongest teams are the ones who win. 4 years ago that was England closely followed by the Aussies. This time it looks likely to be South Africa and France. Until the All Blacks and their supporters get their collective heads round what it actually takes to win an intense knock out comp, they will keep screwing up in crunch matches.
You need to be flexible and learn to win ugly. That's what 'strong' teams do when the chips are down. It really doesn't matter a damn how prettily you can fling the ball about in friendlies.
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I think the comments written about the referee are appauling and if that is the attitude of New Zealand people they should not have the right to host the World Cup in 4 years, give it to one of the progressing Nations.
New Zealands game is BASED on flat passes, with many of them being forward and the number of high tackles commited is a disgrace and I'm sure will not be sorted until someone gets seriously hurt.
Well done France, you've taken the most arrogant Rugby Nation out of the World Cup and for that... I salute you :)
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i think the ref had a great game and its a fantastic result for the tournament with France going through. New Zealand were overrated from the start and now we have a tasty looking set of semis. I wouldn't mind who wins from the remaining four clubs
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As a welshman, im hugely disappointed that new zealand didn't win on saturday,in cardiff too! (kiwi's...don't hate cardiff now!). The all blacks have been the best team since henry took over in 2003. They fully deserved to win the world cup from the outstanding rugby they have played and the amount of games they won since then. I felt almost as bad after the game as i did after fiji beat wales!(almost). We were all cheering for you in wales and lets hope the kiwi's keep living and breathing the best sport in the world, as we do in wales. good luck NZ, c u in 2011 for a wales v new zealand final ;-)
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When are the All Blacks (and the Aussies for that matter) going to learn? You can't expect everyone else in the world to go out on the pitch and say "heck, it's the All Blacks, they have such a good playing record we'll let them win this time". You have to win the big matches too!
Complaints about the referee and the oppositions style of play just sound like whinging. Get over it and you might win in 4 years.
England vs South Africa in the final.
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Oh right Kev, and none of those aforementioned Islanders end up in the ABs? A third of the squad are Islanders, enhancing not detracting from the quality of NZ rugby.
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What a really sad article! If the appeal of Rugby is waining in NZ, then this has a knock on (excuse the pun) around the world...New Zealand IS Rugby Union. World rugby, if it is to grow, needs nations like NZ with their history & passion for the game. Like Football, money seems to be ruining a great sport...
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The All Blacks may hold the number one position in the world rankings, but that says more about the rankings than anything else. A consistent failure to do knockout competitions doees not merit the "best team in the world" tag. Best at what? Branding?
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I agree with post number 8. Welcome to the real world All Blacks and New Zealand. As an Australian living in the UK it is hard explaining to New Zealanders that Rugby Union in Australia just isn't that big of a deal. In Melbourne where I'm from I'm never met anyone who plays or is interested in it; the only people who play the game in Australia are a few private school kids from New South Wales and Queensland! This seems to come as a surprise to most New Zealanders. I mean, you have to spell out to them that beating a team that Australia put out really isn't that big an achievement due to the lack of participation by Australians. But ask a Kiwi and beating Australia in the Bledisloe Cup is the highlight of their sporting year!
It's similar in England (again mostly private school kids playing), South Africa (predominately Afrikaners and white people) France, Argentina, you get my point, in no country is Rugby Union a mainstream sport. And yet New Zealand STILL manages to consistently lose in the World Cup at a sport at which they focus ALL of their energies! It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Hopefully the population will join the rest of the world in realising Rugby isn't a big deal and diversify their sporting interests (like everyone else does...).
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Mainly a lot of bleating and codswallop. NZ lost. Grow up. One NZ try had a forward pass anyway. Its a shame, they are the best team, but it's a cup not a league, which is why it is so interesting.
2007 RWC so far has been absolutely fantastic sport, the best ive watched for years, if not ever.
2007 RWC versus the Olympic yawnfest or the FWC with the acting and cheating. Dida slapstick versus Hernandez magic. No contest.
:o) Im luvin it!
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Entirely predictable bleating from NZ - must be the proximity to the sheep. The whole rugby world knows that the All Blacks choked yet again. Blaming the referee is just being in denial. It's probably a good thing that rugby becomes less important as a part of NZ culture if it means their people (as a whole, because there are lots of honourable exceptions) become slightly more grown-up and mature. Well done to France - they kept the faith and gradually undermined that of the AB's, who couldn't change the game plan when their opponents refused to buckle. The best teams are those still in the tournament. It's called winning.
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I was another disillusioned kiwi who attended the game over the weekend.. and what a game it was! I enjoyed everything about it.. apart from this horrible feeling I have had ever since the final whistle.
I am only now coming to terms with the weekend, not that we lost.. but that it was the last time we will see this team play together. They have to be one of the greatest AB sides of all time.. how could they not be?
The fact is, if you roll the dice that many times, surely the other teams numbers can come up. 7/8 against the number 2 team in the world is not bad... is it?
Failed? sure.. but I will still be wearing my jersey in the weekend.. brave or stupid? neither, just proud to be a kiwi and an All Black Supporter.
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Rugby isn't a matter of life or death in Australia or France, but the last 2 World Cups have generated great momentum and been very well supported by the locals. I wouldn't expect increasing popularity of other football codes in NZ to have any negative effect on the support for RWC 2011.
For me (Australian), the ABs are the best national rugby team in the world, regardless of their poor World Cup record. But they are only sportsmen and it would probably do everyone in NZ a favour if they weren't revered as gods - and a lot of my Kiwi friends agree.
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I've lived outside NZ for 15 years and I don't often give my nationality much thought, except when it comes to the All Blacks. Absolutely nothing makes me feel prouder and more excited to be a New Zealander than when I see the All Blacks doing the haka. The disappointment of Saturday's loss was acute, but I urge fellow kiwi's to maintain your dignity and be proud to be graceful losers. I must say a snippet comment replayed on BBC Radio4 (UK) this morning made by kiwi IRB referee boss Paddy O'Brien saying he was 'sickened' by NZ's response to blaming the ref was in itself extremely disappointing. The media have cut comments from your interview Paddy and it now sounds like you are simply slating your own country - not a good look. Unfortunately it made NZ look 1000x worse and personally I felt like crap hearing it. Please choose your words more carefully next time. I heard the full interview and it sounded more balanced, but sadly your words were taken out of context (funny how the media do that)
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I'm a kiwi living in England. I read this mornign about the death threats against the ref and I am totally ashamed.
Is anyone that surprised we lost?
What did it have to do with the ref? We had the best team at the WC again, we didn't win it again. It's not the ref, or Henry, or Taine's fault.
Get over it!
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I'm a Kiwi who has followed NZ's last three world cups from outside the nation. I think that the depression you can see is a reflection of the emotional investment Kiwis put into the ABs, who are usually our one stable source of pride in a country otherwise generally lacking in confidence and self-assuredness.
What really disappoints me about the trashing of the referee, however justified, is that we begin to sound like Clive Woodward and the many failed British teams who came to NZ, are comprehensively beaten, and go away making weak soundig excuses blaming the referee. Yes, the ref was out of his depth and made some appalling calls, and yes, that may have affected the outcome of the game, but even with that, NZ still had multiple chances to close out the game and failed to take them. Kiwis don't have to give up rugby because of this - but just perhaps learn to be a little more even headed about it all, and realize that we have plenty to be proud of as a nation whether the ABs are winning or not. We'll be back!
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I find it ironic all this teeth nashing and blaming of the English ref Wayne Barnes. For years the ABs have been getting away with cynical cheating and forward passes all over the field, the moment they're sunk by one it's the end of the world and death threats against the ref. It just confirms what I've felt for many years more than the odd NZ Rugby fan is no better than lager fueled English Soccer fans.
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As a devastated Welshman I can empathise with the sense of doom and gloom that the NZ fans must be feeling.
However it smacks of hypocrisy when NZ fans and public figures (NZRU chairman and NZ foreign minister)are obsessing about the referee. As if the AB's have never profited from a referees mistake!
Funnily enough, I thought the ref had an excellent game overall. I know that the French forward pass is getting all the headlines but not one NZ fan (or anyone in fact) has mentioned the fact the the ref missed two NZ forward passes, both by Sivivatu.
The first one was in front of the NZ posts on the 22 in the 15th min. Two minutes later AB's score a try. The second one on the 61st minute on the NZ 10m line. 1 minute later AB's score a try.
The bottom line is, NZ failed to score a point in the last 12 minutes (and only scored 5 in the whole second half). The AB pack suffered from white line fever in the last 5 minutes. Any self respecting England or Springbok fly half would have booted a drop goal.
It's all very well running in tries by the truck load but NZ have got to learn how to win tight ugly games.
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New Zealand have the best players but not one of them had the intelligence to go for a drop goal with 2+ minutes left when they were camped in the French 22. Instead, they blame the ref and the coach when they had all the possession, all the territory but were clearly not concentrating on the job in hand. They could have won, they blew it, tough luck, get a life.
Here are a number of other controversial decisions that have favoured the now All Grey Sours (with a bit of Black) in the last 28 years:
Wales Vs All Blacks in 1979, Haden's lineout dive and the interesting penalty for obstruction on Oliver by Geoff Wheel.
Wayne Shelford not being sent off/penalised for retaliation against Wales in the 1987 RWC semi final for his over zealous knocking out of Wales's Huw 'Glass Chin' Richards who was attacking one of his All Black chums (Richards was quite rightly sent off).
Side Show Bob/Doug Howlett's try against Wales in the 2003 RWC group stage was created by a forward pass.
Big matches will always throw up controversial moments. The Kiwis should learn to live with it and not be such a bunch of rugby obsessed bad losers. It is no wonder so many of their population are leaving in droves to do bar work in other countries.
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I think that since the game became professional, something of the dedication beyond reason necessary to win the toughest matches has gone from the ABs. Is there a psychological shifted created when NZers are contracted rugby players playing for money? The ABs as a brand doesn't seem to be working to me. Do they suffer stiff financial penalties when they lose? Maybe we are at our best as quiet, even reticent amateurs and at our worst in this over-hyped professional rugby world.
I think the moaning about the ref etc by my fellow NZers was shameful. The fact is, with 70% possession we should have maintained and increased the score margin. We didn't, we lost and the French deserve the credit.
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The french fought 4 national pride.wat patriotism can u expect from former islanders playin 4 the ab.u can't expect them 2 b as passionate
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Perhaps now is the time to crack down on the rules for selection of New Zealand players - kick them when down etc....they have punched above their weight for some time now on the basis of taking the cream of the Pacific Islands as their own....Fiji, Samoa and Tonga are penalised as they do not have the allure of the All Blacks, but what would have happened if their best nationals were playing on the wing for them, rather than the Kiwi nation? Would Fiji have triumphed against Southa Africa, Tonga against England? etc..
Stop the Kiwi raping of talent, accept that they are mortal and stop allowing a war dance before every game - or can we have the thin red line compete with bayonet as our pre-match intimidation technique?!?
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wanna see the right way to perform the haka by proper kiwis and the consequences of expressing disrespect when its performed?
you won't be dissapointed
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KlpnZyKtb1I
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As an Englishman I have mixed feelings. Obviously the Kiwis are despairing and every nation (including we English) knows about sporting heartbreak. As for the game it wasn't the Ref who cost you -it was seemingly the fact that no-one had thought through the problem of what do to if NZ are losing in a high pressure situation. NZ did not work out beforehand how they could be losing and have a plan for overturning it. It was a lack of on- field leadership that other less able but winning teams usually have. To me it seems ultimately a lack of scenario planning because of AB dominance since the last WC -a victim of your success. But take pride in the fact that the ABs set the standard; they always set the standard and beating them is a great feat. NZ should take great pride in that fact because every Rugby fan can see how good they are -that they are the best. How can this represent failure? It would be a shame for NZ to switch off to Rugby and allow this to dissipate.
But next time around be more humble and try to stop making everyone else feel that each game you play is some sort of training game for the next (and implied) greater challenge ahead. That is disrespectful to your opponents and can lead as in this case to your own downfall.
Finally, play whatever part you can in breaking down this tiresome Northern versus Southern hemisphere rivalry. Rugby needs to be a global game of differing styles with the AB's at the forefront.
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In the early 1990's when rugby was still amateur people were worried about players going to League, then throughout the early part of the professional era there was always the chance to go to bigger money in the UK, players haven't bothered. There is always an outflux of players from NZ after the WC, as there was a year after the 95 world cup when Sean Fitzpatrick, Brook x2, Olo Brown, Craig Dowd, Ian Jones, Michael Jones, Graham Bashop, Marc Ellis amongst others all left - they were all replaced. The NPC is loaded with young quality players, they might take time to get to international standard but they will eventually. The only place where this massive influx of players will cause harm is in Europe where local players will not get a run as all the positions will be taken up by Kiwi's, Safa's, Argies and the Aussies - look at the premiership's affect on the England football team!
One poor performance (which involved them loosing by 2 points to the team 3rd favorites to win the WC and ranked 3rd in the world) does not make a bad team. The press here will live off this because it's such a rarity they can slate them between being beaten heavily - tall poppies syndrome and all that.
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Interesting comments but having lived in NZ and listened to what the public want, you can´t help feel that the NZRU are the people shooting themselves in the foot. Before the tri-nations was renegotiated a lot of people wanted Argentina to join (a way could have been found). Not even the players wanted to play each other 3 times but that was what was negotiated. So tell me, which are teams that really made the RWC interesting - Argentina, Fiji, Georgia, Tonga. Instead of the 3 nations, the SH could have had a six nations tournament that attracted public attention as opposed to the same old thing again and again.
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I must confess I wasn't surprised to see the All Blacks get knocked out of the comp. I have watched them over 20 years and there is no doubting how great they are. They epitomise rugby union, in a way that Brazil epitomise football. However, too many times they've failed to win the big one and if I was a kiwi (which Im not) I would be asking that question.
As an Englishmen, who watched the England 2003 team deliver, there are comparisons to make with the 03 England team and NZ teams. England were awesome over 2/3 years and delivered. But to be continously no1 and people expecting you to deliver time and time again would be very hard, near on impossible. I think NZ are victims of their dominance and the pressure at home and abroad to continually win is too much.
Man for man they are the best and collectively too. Short term pressure is good and the adrenaline flows, but continous longterm pressure is a killer, you start to implode and it becomes detrimental and effects your performance.
Winning is a habit and losing " when the pressure is on" is a habit too.
M.
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rugby is still our nations sport and the only thing to change that is the influx of more and more immigrants into NZ. they dont play rugby they aint hard enough. I love NZ and I love the All Blacks, losing on Saturday was painful, but I'll support them forever!
Lets be postitive and make the RWC in 2011 just for rugby teams around the world with a kiwi influence...oh that would be every team in the world!
Kia kaha
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A national identity based on something as capricious as sport just creates a culture of denial and consequent lack of maturity.
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After being subjected to some seriously over the top goading and attitude in Wellington High Street after the 2nd Lions Test, I've got to admit I'm loving the dummy throwing by a lot of the Kiwi's.
Whilst the Kiwi media were praising the British fans attitude to defeat, I can only assume their fans must have been celebrating by chasing sheep in the hills to take any of it on board. Sure it hurts, but you smile, take a beer and get on with it.
How a nation can be so relaxed and friendly in normal life, but so far up their own arse regarding rugby is beyond me.
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Can't help thinking the easy victories against the Lions did no favours for the ABs. But Lions teams aren't a good barometer of the NH game. It's hit and miss. Lions teams are a temporary collection of talented players who might or might not work well together. No comparison to a national squad playing together for a few years and fired up by playing for their country, especially in a World Cup. OK so France don't contribute to the Lions but there appears to be a single view taken in Aus/NZ of the 6 Nations scene overall.
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Just a note on the supposed 'poaching' of island players by NZ. A lot of these players come to NZ with their families when they are still young and grow up and are schooled in NZ. If people are complaining about this we can also bring in players like Mike Catt, Matthew Stevens - both from South Africa but play for England. Pieter de Villiers, also from SA but plays for France. There are a number of cases of this and I get sick and tired of hearing about only NZ and Aus 'stealing' island players......it happens throughout the game. Live with it.
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Isn't this all slightly over the top. The difference between the two teams was 2 points. France got on top after a dubious sin-binning, 4 crucial players were lost in quick succession and a fairly obvious forward pass went unpunished. Apply those stats to any team in the cup and your going to lose. At the end of the day 2 good teams hammered hell out of each other for 80 mins and France got the rub of the green, I just hope they can go on and win it. As for the ABs they will always be the best - the skill levels leave everyone else in their wake. I'm Welsh and personally it was the worst decision Wales ever made when they sacked Henry - he's a visionary, and a superb tactician.
You didn't see him making excuses on saturday - just took it on the chin like the true sportsman he is.
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the french fans showed up the kiwis in all ways. classier, funnier and warmer. the kiwis were good too but that hint of arrogance is so off putting. I am English and had a great day. I was in the Millenium Stadium and supported the French. why? Cos I just wanted to be able call the Kiwis bottlers for four more years.
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Hi All,
Being a kiwi fan who was at the game I'm getting a bit annoyed at all these "arrogant" claims. Yes, some corners (mainly media) are blaming refs, etc but most kiwis accept they lost to the better team - Ask anyone at the stadium that night. Thats sport and it was an amazing occasion. However, having lived over here for 9 years every time NZ lose the comments are usually "overrated/arrogant/blah...". Facts are we are consistently number 1 no matter what time period and have expectations at that level which is amazing for a nation of only 4M people with 100k playing rugby. Compare that with Englands 56M people and half million adult players and you will see the gap. Yes, its our nations sport and has defined our otherwise unimportant nation sice inception. Yes, we have pacific island players but if anyone would go to NZ they would realise there are actually more pacific islanders living in NZ than in the islands themselves and it offers them a lifeline so why wouldnt they? i also note that with Englands size you still have a number of foreign players yourselves and i won't even comment on the player drain from NZ to Europe clubs/countries. As for pride, Im proud to support a team as humble as the Blacks and hope to see you all in NZ in 2011 so you can see for yourselves how "arrogant" we are.
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As a Brit, I would make the following comments:
1. The AB were huge odds-on favourites, odds were 50:1 - so why did the game turn on 2 points?
2. The ref was human and made a mistake, but as one of your respondents commented, if you're that good the ref doesn't matter (remember the final in 2003!!!)
3. Perhaps some of the NZ support is waning because there are too many South Sea Islanders wearing the black shirt?
4. If the AB don't win in 2011 then you really do have probs.
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All this talk of arrogance is ridiculous. Everyone I know here in NZ was nervous about playing the French (based on our previous WC record) and the team definately was wary of the French, maybe too much. Possibly they tried too hard. Most people here are disappointed especally over the blatant forward pass being missed but that is irrelevant as the players didn't perform and were out passioned by the French and this is the commonly accepted here. At no point has Graham Henry or any of the players blamed the ref or any other factors other than commending the French on their performance; how this translates to arrogance is beyond me. As for the guy from Melbourne and his rant about Australia having a few private school rugby players and the rest play other sports, well Australia has about the same number of participating rugby players as there are playing in NZ (of course Aust has over 5 times the population so it just about evens out). Anyway, he can stick to his Aussie Rules, where in their ultimate showcase, the Grand Final, between 2 club teams, the winning team won by 120 points. Yes, that's right, 120 points. What a finale that must have been. Too bad I was watching a worldwide sport that nations around the world play ans seeing 4 captivating QF rugby matches.
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A number of English bloggers seem to be repeating the red herring about NZ stealing Pacific Islander players, or that the latter mightnt have their hearts in it. As an unbiased Aussie, let me defend NZ, before this page is swamped by righteously indignant Kiwis.
The reason for all those Islanders in the All Blacks is economic migration, particularly from Samoa, which was basically an NZ colony after WWI. None of the current AB's grew up and learnt their rugby on a Pacific Island. Most of the Samoan and Tongan teams, however, grew up in NZ. Same applies to australia by the way - Tuqiri in Aust. since age 3, Palu and George Smith born in Australia.
Saying that these people arent really NZ or Australian, is a bit like saying Monty Panesar, Nasser Hussein, Paul Sackey or Rio Ferdinand shouldnt play for England in various sports. Or is that what some of you think?
Yes there are rugby scholarships which could be a problem in the future but its not a significant part of the current equation.
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It's about time people stopped using the ref as an excuse for a loss. decisions go both ways and in the past I have seen NZ get some nice tries from a forward pass.
NZ just didn't perform at their best, is it they thighten up in pure knock out rugby or is it they just get complacent?
The French stuck at it and wanted it more in the end.
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I think the point is often missed here. Rugby more than any game represents true sport.
When you walk on that pitch each side has an equal right ot win. Reputation is nothing. No side deserves to win on past performance.
This NZ team reminds me of the England football team; a group of super talented players united only by thier ability to consistently underperform on the big stage. For 1966 read 1987.
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There are a number of myths (some provoking debate in the comments here) about New Zealand rugby spread by a small number of poorly informed and ignorant journalists (all Kiwis know who I am talking about).
Let's reason - ABs are the most attractive rugby team to watch and represent a country so isolated and population so small that I think they should be forgiven for very occasionally losing a match - especially one ultimately decided on such an obvious forward pass.
Rugby needs the ABs - cut them some slack.
P.S I'm English
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I think the AB's need to be very careful at the moment, the arrogance they have shown before and throughout the tournament has been shocking.
Yes they are a very strong team and on pre-tournament form were the favourites. However they are in danger of turning into the English by overdoing the "confidence"
The change in the Haka, pretty cynical attempt to intimidate the oposition shows that they believe themselves to be better or different from the opposition.
The AB's used to be everyones second team now they are not due to arrogance and the fact they no longer play beautiful rugby, instead relying more on cheap shots from Collins and McCaw, followed closely by Williams who must have gone to the same school as Danny Grewcock!!
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There are 8 Island born players in the AB's.
The players migrated with their families, those claiming they were poached should cite whom and how. I have yet to see any case for it for any player in the current team. So make my day.
The idea that people raised in New Zealand with their families are not fellow Kiwis with those born here is ludicrous.
It might seem that some feel that players should be either born in the country, or as a descendant of those that were. Yet if this was so, they would not accept so readily people qualifying to play by residency (consider the England cricket team and their South Africans or de Villiers and a Kiwi born former midfield back for France).
The point the article should have made - is that as a society takes in more migrants and develops, it becomes more diverse and becomes less mono-cultural. This effects it's earlier singular aspects - community centred around, church, pub and a sport. This change is now decades old, yet perceptions of New Zealand lag behind. Otherwise amateur sport and all voluntary activity is in decline because of changes to a competitive market economy - more people working, longer hours etc
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I think Saturday's result was a triumph for rugby in general. The All Blacks seemed to view the tournament as an unnecessary six week exile in France to get hold of what they percieved to be rightfully theirs. The arrogance and lack of sportsmanship displayed by them over recent years was in many ways repaid in kind by a world who is tired of the excuses. You've not won the world cup in a long time boys, maybe the IRB should start asking refs to "bias black"? Or more controversially you could get on and play the game.
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Steve,
So you admit it was obstruction but don't think that warrants a yellow card? You claim to have been at the MS but seem to now ignore that the obstruction was right in front of your try line and denied France a good chance of a Try.
It was a cynical proffesional foul and 100% deserved a yellow card.
For kiwis to be bleating on about a forward pass is hilarious, the country that invented the forward pass. The AB's throw so many forward, oh i forgot- flat 'eyebrows raise' passes its not funny.
For once new zealand got reffed properly, and not for the first time lost an important knock out match. Maybe the all blacks should get a little tougher mentally and stop looking for excuses year after year.
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Max - I think you're being hard on NZ and its fascination with rugby. To be fair to them (I'm English) they have a population less than Scotland, yet have constantly dominated a major international sport. Australia, and especially England and South Africa, have a huge population base in comparison to NZ, so its not surprising they don't have a whole range of teams dominating major sports. That they excel in one is amazing for a country of their size.
And I do mean excel - they're brilliant, and I for one love watching the All Blacks when they visit the UK - the reason they don't win the WC every time is not because of Pacific Island-born players wanting to play elswhere (stupid comment) or their arrogance. They have simply lost against excellent opponents in a knock-out competition. It happens. It'll go their way one WC soon.
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I was very happy to see France win - not as a thing against the All Blacks but because of the way they hung in there and played rugby.
The yellow card WAS deserved - deliberate cynical obstruction is a yellow card offence. Yes, the pass may have been forward but the reason so many Kiwis were able to spot it is that forward passes go unpunished - along with head-high tackles, spear tackles and sundry other forms of violence in the super 14s every week.
Part of the problem for Southern Hemisphere sides is that the standard of refereeing they enjoy in such competitions is poor. Every attempt is made to 'let the game flow' and to hell with the rules or the ugly, doggy bits like scrummaging. Straight put ins? Don't make me laugh. Rugby League scrums more like.
Yes, there are some wonderful SH backs but the beauty of Rugby football is that you can play if you're big or small, fast or slow, there is a position you can master. There is more to it than throwing the ball around like Sevens.
I love to see Rugby played well - by any nation, even the Welsh! I hate to hear supporters of any nation moaning about the result, the refere, etc. Rugby is a sport. One of the endless fascinations of sport in general is that it can be unpredictable and throw up unexpected results. If the accepted 'best team' won every time, the other teams wouldn't bother going across the whitewash.
Every team must be able to believe they have a chance. The ones that don't and put out weakened sides, like Scotland - are actually being quite cynical.
Australia and NZ felt they could win by just showing up. Fortunately England and France had other ideas. I only wish the Fijians had been able to sustain their brilliant effort. Good luck to the teams left in. Let's hope that those going home - as they believe - too early will have learned a valuable lesson in humility. It only remains for one-eyed AB fans to embrace the same lessons.
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Poor old Kiwi's - Not sure if I agree with this Blog though -
I think player numbers are reducing because of the inherent risks in playing. And as for the interest in the AB's - THEY HAVE JUST BEEN KICKED OUT OF THE WC!!!
Bottom line - NZ had 10 minutes to get a score - which they should have been able to do - BUT they failed and are out.
They have consistently been head and shoulders above the rest of the other rugby nations particularly since Henry took over 4 years ago.
One word - choke - I know, I'm Irish!!
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Respect to Brendan and Warren, i agree with you guys 100% and im a South African. Your All Blacks side was definitely one of the most potent i have ever seen and my heart literally skipped a few beats when i saw you guys get knocked out, i was really hoping for a NZ vs SA RWC final. 2 nations that love rubgy implicitly,what more could you ask for. I think France defended really well but im sure the result would have been different if you hadn't lost so many key players in such a short space of time. I feel horrible for Richie McCaw,he played some incredible rugby during the tournament and deserves alot better. I hope you boys back the Bokke
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re comment 63. Graham Henry had plenty of success with Wales before taking AB's to world domination did he ?
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Re the Islander v NZ native controversy...
Yes, I understand that NZ attracts and welcomes many migrant families from the Pacific. The economy of the South Pacific islands is so very limited that the attraction of a vibrant country with genrally welcoming population is very great. That is still so even though the vast majority of the immigrant population then lives in the worst housing and social conditions, just as elsewhere in the world.
I think that, ignorance aside, the NH perspective is clouded by the idea that those of Island heritage then CHOSE to play for the ABs rather than their 'own nation'. And there IS truth in that.
These are all perfectly understandable choices - Michael Jones chose to play for the ABs cos it made the most of the huge talent he had, just as much as doubtless it was a wise career choice. The NZRU are doing nothing wrong by offering these guys places in sides either.
BUT.....it has lead to there being some little part of truth in the assertion that NZ is South Pacific (A), and Samoa, Tonga and Fiji are left with best of the rest.
By the by, I am married to a Kiwi girl who was there when Barry John scored against the Universities in 197?2 Mostly she now supports Wales but I do what I can (England....)
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13. At 11:46 AM on 09 Oct 2007, Hugh wrote:
Do you think the problem is that some ABs are not Kiwis? Is it that some, deep down, know they should be playing for their Island teams in the World Cup? Is it that their hearts are not quite in it?
Did you really see any actual evidence of this? To blame a few "none Kiwis" for New Zealands defeat is massively insulting to the players that would have worked incredibly hard, as hard as "proper" Kiwis,in preparation and in performance. Your statement is verging on racial slurring!
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Sat 6 Oct. Pub in London. Eng vs Aus. Lots of passion and banter from both sets of supporters for 80 mins. Eng win, Aussies - albeit disappointed - gracious in defeat, as they were in 2003.
Four hours later, same pub. France vs NZ. Lots of passion and banter from both sets of supporters for 80 mins. France win, Kiwis anything but gracious in defeat.
NZ lost to a better team. That happens to all teams in all sports. I suggest NZ take reassess their self-labelled 'best rugby nation in the world' tag - it will be 24 years come 2011 - and realise that there are other nations out there who are better. Fact.
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What a brilliant advertisement the past weekend has been for Rugby Union.
As a kiwi who has lived in the UK for the past 10 years and having been 'force fed' football from all corners here, you have to say that football will never come up with a double header like that where the 'underdog bares all its teeth'!
Congrats to the England and French teams for their resolute defences and courage under fire !
I must admit that with the memory of the All Blacks demise in 1999 still fresh in my mind (only because I gloated rather too loudly about how much we would win by on the Friday, only to be laughed at extremely loudly on the Monday back at work), I made it very clear this time around to my friends and work collegues, that I wouldn't be surprised if the AB's had another nail biter and finished up on the wrong end of the result. Lets face it, the French can be breath taking on any day of the week, I can still see Serge Blanco now, cutting the AB's to pieces from one end of the park to the other not that long ago!
As for the Ref, he actually had a great game and the forward pass and yellow card moments could of happened either which way, and great teams always prevail, no matter what is dished out. The All Blacks have had more than there fair share of calls go their way when they should not have over the years and these things tend to 'even out' over time. No kiwi fan could argue with that. The way the Ref spoke to the players that I could hear on the coverage seemed to me as if he had an excellent grasp on the control of the match and players too. Lets hope he controls a few more top class games in the future. I am sure he will prove his quaility at this level.
As for all the Kiwi Fans out there, lets all be honest - The best team won, for the AB's to have close on 70 per cent of the ball and not win, well that does show you which team was committed the most!!
Lets all show some humility and salute the French as I am sure they would of done had the result been the other way.
Lets now all hope the remaining 3 matches provide us with as much excitement as the past weekend.
MAY THE BEST TEAM WIN !!
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After being subjected to some seriously over the top goading and attitude in Wellington High Street after the 2nd Lions Test, I've got to admit I'm loving the dummy throwing by a lot of the Kiwi's.
Whilst the Kiwi media were praising the British fans attitude to defeat, I can only assume their fans must have been celebrating by chasing sheep in the hills to take any of it on board. Sure it hurts, but you smile, take a beer and get on with it.
How a nation can be so relaxed and friendly in normal life, but so far up their own arse regarding rugby is beyond me.
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Surely the events of the weekend are exactly what makes any decent sport so enthralling to watch. There are no absolutes, no foregone conclusions and sometimes the mighty are humbled. France beat New Zealand and England beat Australia and that, my friends, is a fact! Both were great games and in both the best team, on the day, triumphed. France simply outplayed New Zealand and England outplayed Australia. As Mr taylor frequently says to me "Take that!"
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why do so many of these blogs - including this one - bleat on about teams that have been knocked out of the tournament?
concentrate on the teams who are still involved and worry about the losers in another 4 years time.
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"It does seem weird that for the second time in 4 years the strongest team(s) are out."
Thoroughly confused by this comment considering one of the pre-tournament favorites ended up winning in 2003. You don't get to be a favorite by being a weak team.
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Re Max's comment (Post 40) - Rugby in England is NOT the preserve of a few 'private school kids' by any means. Having spent a few years coaching juniors at a small club, you can take my word for it that young players come from any and all sectors of the population - there were quite a few in my squad who were obviously not that well cared for at home - hardly the thing you'd see from 'private school' parents.
And as for rugby losing its appeal in NZ, it probably has to and then the AB's have a mission they can focus on: to bring the nation back to the game.
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For all these guys that is saying the 4 strongest teams are out surely forgot about one side........ namely the Springboks.
The Boks have been the 2nd favorites after the AB's and now that they have left the RWC the Boks are the new favorites. Yeah the ref's do make mistakes however the AB's just had a very bad game against a awesome display of the French (178 vs 36 tackles; much higher ball posession and territory % for AB's) and they just could not beat the French. The game plan was not good and the guys started to panic after 25+ phases just could not score. Also keep in mind the penalty against!!!!! I was hoping for a NZ vs SA final, however not to be .....maybe in 2011. For now go Bokke (England vs Argentinia final you wish) SA all the way!
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Max (comment 41) suggests that Rugby Union is principally a sport played by private school pupils (referred to as 'public schools' here in the UK).
Rugby is also the sport of choice in a number of state schools, particularly Grammar schools, and is then carried on in 'Old-Boy' junior Rugby clubs where the game is often introduced to locals living in the locality who did not play Rugby at school.
As for Rugby Union not being mainstream, the RWC is now the 3rd biggest sporting event in the World (after the Olympics and Football World Cup).
Irrespective of who wins this tournament, although I will urge on England, I hope the IRB will ignore the calls to cull four teams from the 2011 and instead concentrate on helping the so-called minnows.
The way Tonga, Georgia, Samoa et al performed with so little in the way of resources was humbling and I believe the IRB should at least provide a decent level of accommodation for each team represented and force clubs to release players for training and matches for all competitions.
Additionally each of the relatively-rich top 8 countries should be made to take at least one minnow under their wing and help the game to flourish everywhere.
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One more comment.
The best team won on the day, no doubt about that.
However, comments like "How a nation can be so relaxed and friendly in normal life, but so far up their arse regarding rugby is beyond me" or "they are not the best in the world" is ludicris.
England, your top sport is not rugby, its football. Many an english football fan are so far up their arse its beyond me.
Its the same thing people!
Who would argue that brazil is not the top footballing nation in the world? yet when they don't win a world cup they are are simply not world champions, however they are still the top footballing nation in the world.
Its the same thing people. Rugby is new zealands everything, football is englands everything, everything is australias everything, the USA have gridiron.
Why can't we all just get along?
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I dont personally think there is just one reason behind yet another AB failure at the Rugby World Cup. There could be many reasons but if i had the answers then im sure i could make a quick call to the NZRFU and make myself a small fortune. The AB's have been ranked No.1 in the IRB world rankings since June 2004, and deservedly so. They havent just became a bad team overnight and because of one narrow defeat. Is it psychological? Did they just expect to turn up in France (or Wales) and walk off with the prize with minimum effort? Who knows? They lost a rugby match, it happens. They have won the Bledisloe Cup more times than Australia, they have triumphed more in the Tri Nations, with 8 wins, than their two opponents combined total, Australia and South Africa with 2 wins respectively. Yet the big one, old Bill himself, has eluded them since they won it in the inaugural tournament (in NZ, the venue in 4 years so who knows) and then had to hand it over to their near neighbours and fiercest rivals in 91. I dont see why all the doom and gloom. They are still in a very exclusive club, only 4 countries have won the cup thus far, and pretty decent teams they were as well. Could become 5 if the French manage to keep their heads. Its not bad company to be in. So dry your eyes boys, and girls. The mighty AB aura has maybe taken a little dent but remains intact. Im Scottish, how do you think i feel?
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I can't decide what has been more enjoyable: seeing Australia and NZ dumped out of the WC or the post match whinging of our former colonies! So much fun! It really must be hurting. Ha ha ha ha!!!!! In all seriousness we now have Aussies and Kiwis saying the rules need to be changed!!! It's just priceless.
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Never mind what's happened currently has anyone seen the list of players who aren't ever going to win a World Cup medal? check this out, it's painful!!!!
http://www.scrumoftheearth.com/rugby_news/2007/10/09/Greatest+New+Zealand+XV+Never+To+Win+A+World+Cup.aspx
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SPECIAL - AUSTRALIA/NZ WORLD CUP DISASTER SUPPORT LINES:
For any Aussies and Kiwis struggling to cope with the events of the disaster that has unfolded in France two special helplines have been set up:
Aussies can call 10-12-20-17 ask for a Mr John O'Neil
Kiwis can call 1987-2018,ask for a Mr Wayne Barnes
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Lets not fool ourselves this is the 5th tournament in a row that the kiwis have put away weak teams and then bottled it against a sterner opposition.
What is interesting is the childish "we were cheated" approach they take. There have been claims over the years of referees getting gold watches, the all blacks being poisoned, referees cheating them and purposely creating dummy court cases against their players.
Their attitude was shown last time when they said the RWC should play second stage to the NPC. Wake up and smell the coffee! No one team has a devine right to win a tournament and its dedication over the long haul that succeeds. We all love running down hill but its the up hill run that sets the men apart from the boys.
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Re: foreign-born players
This link is very informative:
http://worldcup.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,21043,13089_2760268,00.html
Importers amongst the major teams:
Italy - 15
Samoa - 14
Scotland - 10
New Zealand - 8
Australia, Wales - 7
England, France, Ireland - 4
Argentina, Fiji, South Africa, Tonga - 1
Exporters:
New Zealand - 27
South Africa - 16
England - 13
Argentina, Tonga - 8
Fiji, Samoa - 5
Australia, France - 3
Hopefully now people will stop moaning about who's foreign and who's not. This coming from a Bok supporter who cheered for France all along (until they run into SA that is).
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KiwiPom - I salute you.
On the islander issue, nothing that New Zealand, or anyone else, does contravenes the IRB's regulations and so there is no point in anyone else complaining about it. The rules re. qualification are different from those in football where a player has to have at least one grand parent born in the country that they represent. However, the examples thrown back aren't any better - in the cases of Mike Catt, Matt Stevens, Kevin Pietersen and Nasser Hussain at least on eof their parents is English, and the others named (Paul Sackey, Monty Panesar and Rio Ferdinand) were all born in England and have always been British citizens.
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after reading this i'm a little dissapointed, as a welsh man this weekend of rugby was the best i've ever veiwed without wales being involved!!! englands gameplan - spot on, frances pure passion and desire to over turn a rusty? lathargic? favourite - excellent, a fijian comeback to rock sa, almost inspiring, a tactical argy side turn over a slightly lacking scottish performance - beautifull!! i don't care what anyone says the best tournament teams are in the semi's!!! especially the french, lose their opening game and go on to score hatfulls of tries in the group, while a good opening kiwi performance then a few lacklustre ones, history tells us this cup is all about momentum, the french had it and so did the argies and english!! hope the semis and final are half as good as these WORLD CLASS quarters!!!
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This is a stupid article. The love of rugby has nothing to do with maturity. In France they accept this passion as the stuff life is made of, whereas your reporter is advising a PC school teacher style approach to supporting the game.
There are tragedies happening every day that puts this loss into perspective, and a game is insignificant in comparison to them. but all in life is a futile endeavour and things only have the meaning that we give them. to support my team with die hard fervour is how i prefer to do it. if your school teacher/reporter prefers to say "never mind, as long as i can sit in my 3 bdr home with my consumerist possessions" then in my opinion it is he who needds to re-address how he approaches his life.
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The best teams are the ones that win world cups, which NZ has done but once.
I was surprised that England had the better of the match against the Aussies, and I was surprised that France looked so much better than NZ.
But that's the way it was, in truth, when all was said and done - anything else is just bleating.
I have watched NZ rack up an enviable record in internationals between world cups, only to lose consistently in world cups to the very teams they beat in between.
The answer is that other countries are using many of the international matches to experiment and blood new players. They dopn't care about the result of these matches, because they accept that the reults don't really matter. These countries may lose the 'in-between' tests against the likes of NZ, but they win world cups, and they sometimes win six nations championships and tr-nations titles (and, yes, I know that NZ has won many a Tri-Nations title).
But NZ's apparently impressive record between world cups is not as impressive once you look at the players making up the sides of the countries they are beating. Other countries are using these supposed 'Test Matches' against the more naive sides like NZ, to give the players they will rely upon at the next world cup the international experience they will need to win.
And they are also carefully taking the measure of sides like NZ who rashly and ill-advisedly play their top players in every game.
Some NZ pundits have now spotted this practice, and are complaining about the devaluation of Test rugby.
I'm not sure I agree.
'Test' rugby should be a description reserved for competitive games only. Everything else is a 'friendly', and will be used by the smarter coaches for the try-out purposes described above.
NZ produces (and subsumes!) some very good rugby players, without a doubt. But this world cup is giving the lie to the All Blacks' apparently fearsome 'Test Match' reputation. It - and the team - are just not as good as they appear to be.
The world cup consistently demonstrates that.
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NZ hasnt learnt fom 2003. and probably wont learn in 2011. To win some 99% 0f games over the previous years don't count.In the World cup you need to win 3 on the trot, and experience, experience, experience measured in tests played and familiarity in the position as well as with those around you,(Cf Australia and Dad's arms) Where was Mauger, Howlett and dare I say Weipu (Nonu would have been handy on the bench)
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AS always there is a lot of rubbish spoken on this site...the facts are that forward passes are unacceptable and the do make a massive difference if a try results form one being missed.Every nation has suffered at the hands of a missed fwd pass or a missed knock on etc, NOT JUST THE ALL BLACKS. WE need to make sure that we use everything at our disposal to make the game fair...HOWEVER, you cannot complain about the missed pass if you don't complain also about the lack of strict refereeing at the breakdown, players in front of the back foot and making no real attempt to tackle(just flying shoulder barges!) Now if these infringements were penalised I think the likes of Tonga, Samoa, NZ would probably concede more than any other team and the resulting penalties (lets say half of which would be kickable) would amount to more than 5 points a game(do u see what I'm driving at AB fans?)
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If Kiwis are bored by endless scrums and lineouts; rate scoring tries as being more important than winning via drop-kicks and penalities; consider the ability to catch and pass a rugby ball as being fundamentally important in a rugby player (as oppossed to an optional extra) and dislike forward passes, then I suggest they do what people who take rugby seriously in Australia and England do: watch Rugby League.
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Instead of just laughing and making fun, I feel the need to point out the disgusting generlisations of some people on here - it's every part of what is pushing people like me, away from the game.
Taking a pot shot at the rugby team is one thing, taking pleasure from seeing a nation of people down because of a rugby result, is another thing, but labelling generalisations across a country of people because of your little prejudice, is quite poor. I was there on Saturday with my parents who had travelled round the world for their retirement and we were gutted post loss - but that's what happens. I was proud of the fans and our attitude to defeat, yet the odd person gets the hump with the ref and the whole nation gets the blame? We are all arrogant & evil people if you read alot of whats on here.
Somebody pointed out the british were good in defeat talked about the goading - there's always a few mate, why you choose to generalise against a country is beyond me. Sport seems to be doing nothing but creating enemies if you choose to live by the media and a few glass half empty souls who love to post hatred on the internet. To the welsh, aussie & english guys who we watched the rugby and spent the day with - our invitations remian valid - anytime you are in our part of the world, you have a bed, a bottomless beer and the chance to chin wag about rugby.
That's what we are about - a WC loss changes nothing.
I challenge all of you people who post behind pseudonyms to make your claims at least respectable by having the balls to reveal your identity.
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The failure of NZ and the Aussies at this RWC is a function of their continuing arrogant nature and failure to recognise that the game of rugby can take many many forms. Simply because they wish to play a soft, pretty the ball over the line style does not automatically guarantee success or afford any right to win. The scrum, the ruck and the maul are all integral parts of the game. A game which is played as much with the heart as it is with any other part of the body. Continue the disrespectful attitude and you will wait a very long time to recapture the WC.
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As a Scot fan I love watching good rugby and the All Blacks have enthralled me time and time again--- howver my major recurring image of the All Blacks is the horrendous and cynical 'off the ball' spear tackle made upon Brian O'Driscoll during the last Lions tour of NZ.
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Oddly, I think that if the public profile of rugby, and the open worship of the All Blacks', was to decline in NZ, then the team might stand more of a chance of winning - having the weight of a nation's expectations on your shoulders can't be the most liberating way to play sport - look at the way England's cricketers wilted and withered in the Ashes 06/07 under not just the relentless pressure of the Aussies, but also the huge weight of expectation that they would not just give the Aussies a game but actually beat them.
Another, perhaps more contentious point, is that the Kiwis continuing policy of farming Fijian, Tongan and Samoan youngsters early and bringing them into the Kiwi game might actually not help much in the long run.(Incidentally, if it's true that NZ have never played Fiji in the South Pacific as I read in the UK Sunday Times, that's SCANDALOUS). Fewer and fewer Kiwi parents are letting their kids play rugby because, at age group level, they are massively outweighed and outmuscled - I know Aussie kids play uncontested scrums at school, and look where that's got them. It's been a great tournament, even if it is only a game
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Is the problem the Tri-Nations? In the Six Nations, each team plays each other team once: if you lose just *one* game, your shot at the title becomes dependent on other results and your chance of a Grand Slam is over. Every game is a "must win" game. By contrast, the Tri-Nations, with its home-and-away format, allows teams to lose a game, sometimes more, and still win. England and France (and Argentina, who have to treat every game, even the "friendlies the same way) have much more experience of playing in pressurised games - and grinding out results in them - than Australia and New Zealand.
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2003wcchampion: no one's claiming that the scrum isn't an integral part of the game. I'm fairly sure the aussies and the all blacks appreciate this. You seem to be arguing against yourself.
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To comment 66. I'm all in favour of migration and as an English man living in London I’m more than happy with the multi cultural society that exists in this country. What people do have a problem with is NZ staking out the islands and offering people a life in a more financially prosperous country based on whether they can play rugby or not. Imagine if the English FA went out to Africa and did the same thing!!
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Brian
Your comment..."to win some 99% of games over 3 and 3/4 years is nothing. To win a world cup you must win 3 on the trot"
Huh?
Too much emphasis is placed on the world cup and coaches now know their existance will be based simply on world cup performance. This devalues rugby as coaches try to experiment far too much.."for the greater good"
Test matches are now being devalued by this but to say they mean nothing is utter rubbish. Does your beloved six nations mean absolutley nothing? Of course not.
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I sit next to a Kiwi at work-he has spent the last 4 years telling me how rubbish Northern hemisphere rugby is and how the All Blacks are the greatest. I know if the ABs had won he would have been rubbing it in for another 4 years.
I can't help believing that his attitude is endemic within NZ including their team, and is the main reason the ABs choke. South Africans may take the p*ss a little, but they know if they just turn up they will lose. For a kiwi even to entertain the possibility that someone can beat the ABs is virtually treason. Unfortunately the facts rather fly in the face of their logic
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kwajimu,
you are talking a load of rubbish. basically the two teams that beat australia and nz have been out of form for the past three years. you say they are happy to experiment to peak for the world cup...I think you are forgetting that two weeks ago they were almost out of contention of even making the play off. basically nz, australia were outplayed by on the day...that is all.
nz chokes, but is still the strongest team in the world 95% of the time
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The AB's got what they deserve. They thought that France would be a walk over. They have to learn that anybody can loose. In Afrikaans we say WHELA KAPELA. Meaning it serves you right.
Springbokke for the worldcup 2007.
Go Bokke go
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Jacky's comments that the AB's don't seem to sing their anthem with pride and gusto maybe down to the fact that not all of them are from New Zealand, afterall they are a multi island side!?
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To all those complaining about the ref missing the forward passes - how exactly was he supposed to give them? It was a quick break that he couldn't possibly keep up with, and from the angle he was positioned (which was entirely correct in the circumstances) totally impossible to spot. Therefore its ridiculous to blame the ref. Maybe the touch judge, but again its not reasonable to expect him to be as fast as Michalak. Maybe there should be three refs on the pitch at once? Or maybe players shouldn't be able travel faster than a walk so the ref can always keep up?
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Professionalism to blame? I seem to remember it was the Kiwis and the Aussies who heralded the era of the professional rugby player. You reap what you sew....
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You cant blame the REF.........even though the Referee did not in my opinion have a good game, it happens. The Pass WAS forward, not the last pass but the obvious pop pass, the French played the ball on the deck all day and weren't penalized once, and Macalister certainly didn't deserve to be sent off.......but you cant blame the REF, because these things happen on a rugby field and in reality other things probably occurred that evened that score up.
What was more of a concern is that we once again played our best full back at CENTRE........is it any wonder that in the last 3 cup exits, we have played a FULL BACK at CENTRE. Cullen in 99 sticks in the mind especially given he was the best full back in world rugby at the time, and Mulialina this time might well have been the same. What on Earth was wrong with Miles at the back and CONRAD SMITH at centre?....in top games you have to play specialist players, and centre is a specialist position. Without penetration, and distribution that comes from it the outside backs dont get a whiff....which is why the three quarters never saw the ball all day, and the All Black match winners in Rokokoko and Sivevatu didnt see the ball all day, in factr they only touched the ball when they cut inside .
When will NZ coaches stop playing this dreadful positional ping pong, and go for Specialists in positions. Surely this experiment has been put to sleep once and for all.
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Well, the IRB certainly don't think the ref was very good. I see he won't take any further part in the RWC. Also, I think a thinly disguised Frenchman doing the Final is totally wrong. He may be 'Irish' but of French descent. We saw on Saturday how they can be affected by their heart and passion so they're en for further criticsm depending on results this weekend.
Those who still ignorantly bang on about PIs and "their heart not being in it". Have a look at these supposed 'non-Kiwis' - Roks and Mils, to name two, were in tears at the end of the match. I don't think they were crying over missing out on their RWC winners bonus.
The French move deserved to lead to a try, just shame their win has been tainted as their heart in defence was supreme. Yes, rugby is losing ground in NZ and we need to get that sort of passion back into it. But I think it suffers from overkill.
However, if it dies in NZ then the world will lose the All Black magic. Will France be as passionate this weekend? I think not. Facing the Black shirt seems to lift all players in the other team to achieve something they don't seem capable of. And to those wanting to ban the haka - the French know what it's about. A challenge they manfully accepted.
Now go the Pumas!!!!
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Well I have a lot to say about this issue.
First off, NZ does not "steal" players form the south sea islands. Immigration from the south sea islands to NZ is huge, tons of islanders immigrate to NZ every year. While these polynesian players play for NZ and may not be "Kiwi," they still learned to play rugby growing up in NZ - in my eyes giving NZ the right to claim them as All Blacks. Stop saying NZ steals Island Players - they dont.
Second, I played in Auckland for the last rugby season - and in the auckland rugby union I think about 80% of the players are polynesian. Granted, I think most of the polynesian population in NZ is in the Auckland Rugby Union area - but there is still a lot more pakeha (white and other) than polynesian. Why arent the white kids playing the game anymore? Why are they all moving to football? While I was in NZ last year this was all being discussed.
Thirdly, Graham Henry was too confident. He even made the same mistake as his predecessor - playing a fullback at outside center. Mitchell did it in 2003 with Macdonald at outside center. Henry was too confident that it didn't matter who he played and where - he thought everyone could play at the standard required in practically any position.
I hope the game continues its stranglehold on the NZ culture - but NZ is growing. While I was there I would find people who didn't give a crap about rugby. I guess maybe a problem with NZ is it is soooooo international. The only international identity that NZ has established for itself is rugby, and it's hard to establish your nation on sport. It just puts so much pressure on your players who can lose from a poor referee decision or the bounce of a ball - because after all, rugby is only a game.
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PS - Kiwipom - thumbs up to you mate.
I was in NZ for the disastrous Lions tour, where we were blitzed off the park. The only counter-argument we had was that one of the four home unions held the Webb Ellis trophy - but we all felt NZ would take it - if they could hold their nerve. Unfortunately, they couldn't.
The problem is similar to England's - for years we have watched England teams get turned over by (in theory) inferior teams. That is because when a Welshman / Irishman / Jock pulls on the jersey and lines up against England he DESPERATELY wants to win. And we have had some miserable days at Murrayfield, Wembley and Cardiff along the way. But that is what makes the sport compelling - the fact that a "good little 'un can beat an average big 'un".
NZ are still the best side in the world, they just won't be the Champs....yet. I am sure they just need to focus on playing rugby, throw away those 4 year management plans and get back to what you do best - being noble sportsmen and women.
GOOD LUCK NZ - see you in 2011
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Just to point something out to one of the guys who asked in a sarcastic fashion was Lennox Lewis English? Well if you take into account that he was born in East Ham, London then actually he is. So yes he is part Jamaican but he was actually born in England. The point about English sports teams drafting in sportsmen of different origin is noted however.
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You cant blame the REF.........even though the Referee did not in my opinion have a good game, it happens. The Pass WAS forward, not the last pass but the obvious pop pass, the French played the ball on the deck all day and weren't penalized once, and Macalister certainly didn't deserve to be sent off.......but you cant blame the REF, because these things happen on a rugby field and in reality other things probably occurred that evened that score up.
What was more of a concern is that we once again played our best full back at CENTRE........is it any wonder that in the last 3 cup exits, we have played a FULL BACK at CENTRE. Cullen in 99 sticks in the mind especially given he was the best full back in world rugby at the time, and Mulialina this time might well have been the same. What on Earth was wrong with Miles at the back and CONRAD SMITH at centre?....in top games you have to play specialist players, and centre is a specialist position. Without penetration, and distribution that comes from it the outside backs dont get a whiff....which is why the three quarters never saw the ball all day, and the All Black match winners in Rokokoko and Sivevatu didnt see the ball all day, in factr they only touched the ball when they cut inside .
When will NZ coaches stop playing this dreadful positional ping pong, and go for Specialists in positions. Surely this experiment has been put to sleep once and for all.
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Four more years New Zealand
Four more years Australia
Up north we all realise 2007 doesn't matter and you guys only see it as a build up to 2011
Four more years indeed.
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All Blacks have failed in their quest for Bill again. A nation mourns again.
I have to say living in NZ for the last 5 years, rugby is more then a game, its a relgion to some people.Everyones a expert. Its a sport that is woven into life of this country, similar to football in England (and we know how the english people want their team to win the soccer world cup!!)
I'm sure the NZRFU were praying that the all blacks would bring home the bacon. It hasn't happened and now comes the fall out.
Whos to blame,
players, management (and their so called recondtioning plan),
the NZRFU itself,
the ref (seems to be the top of most people's list down here),
the media (for hyping up / spin what every you want to call it, the greatness of this All Black side,)
NH clubs ( for poaching away the players, offering vasts amount of money thus leaving a vaccum which will now take a number of years to fill.)
And the list goes on
Whoever is to blame, (and no matter what happens out of this so called enqiure that is been sent up to find out what happened)Rugby will still be played here from the 8 year boys to grown men.
Maybe this is where the NZRFU needs to look into. They seem to have forgotten the heartlands, let the ball slip you might say, concentrating on the elite players for what? the WC and all that brings with it?
4 more years to wait is a long time for this country. 2011, just have to wait and see what the rugby world throws up.
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Tri Nations 2008...
You can't do worse than third guys...podium finish...not bad!
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New Zealand are out of the World Cup for 3 reasons:
1. They forgot to watch the tapes of past world cups where they would have learned that drop goals decide the big games.
2. France choked in Game 1.
3. Ireland were rubbish.
New Zealand would have hammered Ireland or Argentina had things gone to plan.
I am Irish so I know what it feels like when this world cup rips your heart out and dances on it. It can only be replaced by having many beers and supporting the team with the better looking female supporters in the remaining games.
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I went to the game after quiting my job in NZ, where I had my heart broken, a part of of New Zealand within me died, The hardest point was facing up to the french supporters post match, as we had no accomadation and had planned to celebrate, all night, this hurt more than anything else that i have experienced.
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136,000 players - hardly a disaster. Plus there is a sustainable pro domestic game...NPC through to S14 generally works, whatever you think about their suitability as a training ground for Test rugby.
In Scotland we only have c.6,000 regular players...yet still we can put 15 guys on the field who can get to the same stage of the WC as NZ (albeit in a less than enthralling fashion).
NZ will continue to be a strong rugby nation...perhaps a reduction in pressure/focus on the ABs may help them to be more successful next time round.
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Good point from Crowdedbus which everyone seems to forget about. The reason many teams get away with forward passes is that the refs can't keep up with professional athletes sprinting at full speed. A ref can only give a forward pass if he is absolutely sure that one occured. In addiiton I thought the yellow card for Mcallister was a bit harsh, but the ABs should have been yellow carded for collapsing the French maul that occured a little earlier in the move anyway.
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Comment No. 13 from Hughe cannot go unchallenged. What a subtle attempt to string your racist views into this blog. "Some all Blacks are not Kiwis and would rather play for their island nations" I watch the tri-nations year in-year out and every AB match from here in the UK and they are just proud and passionate about playing for the All Blacks as Sackey and Robinson are playing for England or Nyanga and Bertsen are turning out for France. The team has lost and you so desperately want to look for reasons why but, having found none you want others (who share the pain of the team's loss)to share your bigotted view. Shame on you! We lost because France scored more points!
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Kiwipom - nice post, thanks.
Unlike many of my Welsh compatriots I am not in love with the NZ rugby team. Throughout my long experience of watching rugby I have been deeply impressed with the levels of skill, speed and commitment shown by NZ sides year in and year out. But I have also seen a level of gamesmanship, cheating and thuggery that no other country came close to. So no bleating please; there is something seriously deficient in your sides that they cannot win three on the trot when it most matters and when they cannot win a game with 70% possession.
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I am an NZer who was at the Cardiff game and I was gutted at the result, but what annoyed me more was how the Allblacks just left the field straight away, they didn’t show any respect for the thousands of fans who support them. A lap around the field could have done no harm and would have shown maturity and respect to their dedicated fans.
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For the All Blacks to blame Wayne Barnes is a bit hypocritical; how many times did So'oialo commit obstruction, or Kelleher but the ball into the locks at the scrum?
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It would be a great shame if interest in rugby union waned in NZ to the extent that, say, cricket did in the West Indies. Like Brazil and N.Z., W.I. are almost defined by their national sport such is the culture of passion and sacrifice. However, 10-15 years ago their young lads started to drift into soccer and basketball and they now have a truly awful test team which provokes ritual head shaking and tearful laments from previous greats.
To hear the great Sean Fitzpatrick talk so disparagingly of an All Blacks side in the same way that Viv Richards and Michael Holding talk of the current West Indies side would be a very sad day. And I'm English!
If this waning interest is truly an issue for concern then it needs to be addressed now, not in 4-5 years time when it could be too late.
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Remember Graham Mourie, All Blacks captain for 6 years and a fine player?
He once said : "Nobody ever beats Wales at rugby, they just score more points". Mourie was responding to complaints from us Welsh about refereeing decisions and All Blacks 'cheating'.
As a Welshman, his remark made me squirm because it had a definite ring of truth. We were looking for someone and something to blame for the failure of our team to beat New Zealand.
There's a lesson in Graham Mourie's comment for some present-day All Blacks supporters.
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I hope All Blacks will win their own world cup in 2011. After the defeat against Argentina, I was desesperated. All about Argentina was disgusting, it's totally idiot, but it was like that. Today, it's a hard time for New zealanders, I respect them ,but the show must go on. No Arrogance, but humility, who knows maybe I will accept a defeat against England, because englishmen respect us and even more than anyother nations. I was fed up by NZ's victories (but respectuous and a bit jealous), now they are humans, welcome kiwis to the frustration's club, they are seats for anyone, but the important is the fraternity, life is too short, In Rugby somebody will never walk alone,(hmm...i wonder if my english is readable) et vive la fête!
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The ref is at fault because of a forward pass... Oh wait! AGs also scored a try following a forward pass but that can't count. Oh wait! It's not just the ref... We forgot Global Warming. It's a whole conspiracy against those good guys from NZ. And yes.. It's just a game.
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It's one thing to look pretty between World Cups but it's a whole other thing to choke in five, yes FIVE successive World Cups. History will remember World Cup winners.
Somehow I don't think we'd be reading this article if NZ had won on Saturday. It's just the usual wallowing that happens after an All Black loss. When they remember that life goes on and there will be another World Cup in NZ in 2011 the interest will soon return.
Blaming the ref? Oh dear, what bad losers you are. My advice would be suck it up and find a team that doesn't bottle it when it really matters.
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Can a team win a major tournament playing in grey? Maybe the All Blacks should stick to playing in all black.
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Well ok, I am getting kind of tired of all the kiwi bashing, before 1981 New Zealand was very passionate Rugby Country,after the 1981 Springbok tour of New Zealand a lot of the people here
were less interested in Rugby, Then it went professional, taking it away from a lot of the public that used to support it, I myself have noticed so far that professionalism in Rugby Union has not really made it any better.
in my own opinion all of the Rugby World Cups so far none have been the great celebration we as Rugby fans should be expecting.The current one is improved, such as the minnow nations singing their national anthems with such emotion is great for the game, however ref wise we were promised that all refs would be reffing the same rules the same way, this has not happened, each game I have seen so far has been reffed differently, according to the refs interpretation on the day.When they have an inexperienced ref controlling an important game this is not the professionalism that the IRB promised. Instead of demoting that ref they should help him by giving him more games.
So The All Blacks lost very sad for
me being a kiwi fan.
Bright side cause there is one, I can acknowledge it was only by 2 points,France played like they wanted to win, Win they did.
and i actually enjoyed the game.
As for the All Blacks being stuck up they actually commented that France was the better team on the day where is the arrogance in that?
As for the Island Players a lot of them are either born here or come to live here from an early age.
Those of you who are kiwi bashing, must be listening or watching to much biased media reporting, an All Black loss is not the great day of Shame in New Zealand that it once was. In That way the above article is pointing in the correct direction
New Zealanders are not the hard core Rugby Union loving people they once were, things change as time goes by.
The All blacks are still a great team Graham Henry is still a fantastic coach, Good luck to France.
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My major gripe about the All Blacks is the way they have systematically recruited the best players from the Pacific Island. This has had a dual effect. It has stunted the development of Pacific Islands rugby and made the All Blacks appear to be a win at all costs team of mercenaries, rather than a truly representative New Zealand team. Perhaps this is why they are losing their gloss at home.
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Rugby is losing it's alure to the general NZ public, just as it has done in the only country who once supported the game with such fervor; Wales. Wales have not been world beaters since the 70's and now football enjoys most of the limelight in the valleys. NZ have not won the World Cup since 1987, it is only natural for the NZ public to diversify their interests. It will always hold a special place in both countries hearts though.
I do question those pundits who are calling NZ players and supporters arrogant. They had a right to expect to at least get to the final after a period of utter dominance. Henry's reign had a success rate of 83%, far more than any other country during that period. However they failed to cope with the pressure and a negative game plan from the French which was always going to test them in a knock-out game such as this. 4 more years indeed.
As for the comments regarding the national make-up of the all black side, I can attest that it mirrors the make up of the New Zealand rugby playing population. NZ IS a pacific Island, the populations of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are intertwined with NZ in a revolving migratory pattern. To suggest poaching belays a lack of knowledge of pacific island culture.
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Why is it that everybody jumps all over the referee but nobody has mentioned that if an AB player had not committed a schoolboy error around the ruck, there would have been three points less for France?
And were there no missed tackles? Missed touch kicks? Dropped passes? Running on the wrong line? Cutting infield instead of towards the wings?
Players lose games, not referees! You lost-get over it!!
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Picking over the entrails of last weekend I am struck by what bad losers the Aussies and, even more so, the Kiwis are - blaming their losses on everything except the teams they played. Death threats to a referee should result in a nation receiving at least a 50 year ban on international competition. As the All Blacks look to reinvent themselves (they only have 4 years left to do that) they may want to start by ditching their stupid war dance - after the 50th-plus time the Haka starts getting pretty old, and didn't seem to have much of an effect on the French last weekend.
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I was delighted when France won on Saturday night. Also enthralled by the highly competitive nature of the contest which lasted until the very end.
However, I do not agree with the posters who have remarked that "players lose games, not referees". Not because I do not think that France deserved to win the game. On balance, they did. But, would France have won if the referee had spotted the forward pass and awarded a penalty to New Zealand, thereby denying France seven points ? Answer: probably not.
So, if we could amend the earlier poster's comment it would be to state that "games are lost for a variety of factors, including the inability of players to react correctly to the pressure situations in which they find themselves, and - occasionally - the inability of referees to make the correct decisions during crucial moments in the game.
So if New Zealand were a truly great team, they would have reacted to the final French try by responding with either a successful drop at goal or a try of their own, thereby negating the impact of adverse refereeing decisions. But, having lost two fly halfs and without Mauger, they seemed to lack direction and leadership towards the end of the game.
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I have always great respect for New Zealand rugby. Loosing is part of the game. Don't blame the ref, you lost for other reasons. You will get over it All Blacks and come back to show what your really made from.
English rugby fan with great memories of the All Blacks throughout the years.
That's from 1960 to this day
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To 149 Nigel Wood
That NZ has systematically recruied the best of the players from the various Pacific Islands - this IS simply NOT true.
Where is the evidence?
How many of the present All Blacks were recruited in such a way?. Most All Blacks of Pacific Island blood were either born in NZ or came to NZ at a very young age.
What's more the reverse is in fact true. NZ born Pacific Islanders are returning to the Islands and boosting their respective teams.
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Maybe allowing the pumas into the tri nations would bring a bit more life to the competition,and the argies might teach everyone how to handle a bit of pressure,even though some of them are still amatuers.
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Hello all from a 'mature' English lady who upon her return to the North shore of Auckland was staggered at the lack of rugby posts, they had been replaced by soccer. The advertisements at the bus stops talked about players I'd never heard of - soccer players, not rugby foorball. I phoned in to the Murray Deeka (don't know how to spell it) to express my major concerns on his radio show, which I did. According to Murray 'live' on his show I and all the other concerned people have nothing to worry about the loss of our national game - they pick the boys up at secondary school, he told me. What! I thought when the other kids playing are then 'built like brick out-houses' I don't think so. Also what are those kids missing out on, the traditionals going back generations of being picked up by the coach - if your family can't get you there. Being giving 'cast-off' boots if your family can't pay the cost of a new pair - The tradition. Also what of the kids who can't afford the soccer fees there's no one in thaat game giving out 'cast-offs' I'm VERY CONCERNED for our future in the game, if the boys are not there at grass roots what hope have we got???
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Can't remember if it was the Ozzy or New Zealand press who printed a picture of Johnnies boot under the headline "Is that All You've Got" during the last world cup.
Hey All Black moaners it was all you needed this time. Please remember Arrogance doesn't count as a Plan B!
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