England manager Martin Johnson was in no doubt. Despite scoring a solitary try and tasting defeat in two of their three matches, England have made progress in this autumn series.
"Although maybe it doesn't seem so to some people, we are certainly making strides forward," he insisted, almost daring his inquisitors to contradict him.
Statistically he is right. A year ago, England lost 32-6 to the All Blacks, so halving the losing deficit to 19-6 on Saturday was progress of sorts.
As the only Englishman to have tasted victory over New Zealand three times, Johnson knows that such claims have to be put into some perspective, however.
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Martin Johnson said he felt like he'd aged 20 years watching his England side torturously beat Argentina.
If the 39-year-old is already mentally on the verge of collecting his free bus pass, then by the time it gets dark at Twickenham on Saturday they could be metaphorically nailing down his coffin.
"The All Blacks are consistent in performance," the beetle-browed manager noted as he contemplated this week's visitors to south west London. "If we make the same mistakes, we'll be in big trouble."
He was certainly right on the first count (we'll come to the second later.) New Zealand may not have won a World Cup since 1987 and that will remain a treasured taunt for opposition fans and source of pain for Kiwis until a second one arrives, but they could never be labelled an up-and-down team.
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Lewis ' Mad Dog' Moody - scourge of nervous full-backs, fearless ruck rampager, king of the kamikaze charge-down - has an unexpected confession to make: he's scared of spiders.
"I honestly used to hate them," he says. "I'd dread seeing one. The lads used to love it - they'd find a spider in the changing-room and chase me round the room with it, put one in my boots. I had to go on an arachnophobia course, where they made me hold a tarantula. I had to sort something out or they'd have teased me forever."
It doesn't end there. While he's now OK with smaller spiders ("I can pick up the baby ones") there's also his terror of heights.
"Before the last World Cup we trained with the Marines down in Poole, and they did a high-wires course with us. Ooof! We had to climb up a telegraph pole and stand on this tiny piece of wood at the top. Four of you had to do it, all stand on this bit of wood, and I remember just clinging to Ben Kay. Clinging to him."
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