The new web site: one week on
Post categories: homepage redesign
| 19:44 PM, Monday, 6 April 2009
Thank you for your comments. While we're pleased with much about the new site, we always expected to continue work after launch.
Firstly, I'm sorry that so many of you experienced technical problems over the weekend. There were publishing problems on Friday afternoon which affected the availability of radio programmes. We're aware of another problem on Sunday morning which affected our new programme pages for a short time. It isn't any consolation to know that these failures weren't confined to Radio 4. I share your frustration.
I'd also like to pick up a few of the main issues raised in your feedback.
Homepage design: We've had some positive comments about the homepage but I've also noted that some people don't like the top promotion area or our use of images. This homepage marks a departure from the old design and I appreciate that it isn't to everyone's taste. But this is also one of the more subjective areas of discussion and there isn't a consensus across the feedback we've received, so we're going to work with this for a while longer before drawing any firm conclusions.
Navigation: The majority of pages and navigational links tested well before launch but new issues arise when you launch a site and expose it to the real world. We're already considering changes that we could make to address some of the valid points raised. But we're going to let the site bed down a little more first, so that we can be sure to understand the impact of any changes that we might make across the range of Radio 4 content and other parts of the BBC that share this system.
Archive: I concede that navigating to the archive isn't something we've got right yet. At the moment, we're linking back to pages from our old site for archive content, with current content available on our new pages, but we will bring our archive audio content into the same system in the near future. (This is part of the plan to enable our archive content to be 'tagged' and found by subject). In the meantime, archive content can be found by following the 'archive' links in the navigation at the top of programme pages.
Programme information: We now have a page for every programme we broadcast and these pages have developed during the week since relaunch, as the teams around the BBC who supply content for the website have started to work with our new systems. It isn't yet perfect across the board but you should continue to see improvements.
News Headlines and Weather: In responding to feedback that the old homepage was too cluttered, we had to decide to remove some features which we knew users could access easily elsewhere. Many of our users go to the BBC News and Weather sites and this was a relatively unused feature of the old Radio 4 homepage, which is why we removed it.
We're still identifying and working through a list of snags which will iron out some of the smaller points raised. I am grateful to those of you who have taken the time to outline specific points constructively and ask for your patience as we make improvements in the weeks to come.
- The redesigned Radio 4 web site launched on 31 March 2009. Leigh's previous posts about the redesign are here (9 March), here (19 March) and here (30 March). Mark Damazer launched the site on 31 March.
- The BBC's web site design standards.
- Sophie Walpole explains the idea behind 'one page per programme' in a blog post written back in 2007.
- Follow @radio4blog on Twitter for regular updates from the Radio 4 blog.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
Comments
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Although you can indeed access the old archive page of Saturday Live, all the "listen again to this programme" links are now dead, as I discovered this morning when I tried to catch up on episodes from a few weeks ago. And on the programme's new page, it seems to be no longer possible to listen to any programme after seven days. Is the show no longer being archived?
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To whomever is responsible for classifying programmes, for my money, content is inaccessible because it's misclassified e.g. click on 'Comedy' and you actually get 'Entertainment & Comedy' programmes. Also, programmes listed under 'satire' hardly fall under satire. This needs addressing. I find Radio7's blog-powered micro-site but smoother.
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I noticed whilst using Ken Bruce's Radio 2 contact page to email Zoe Ball that I was limited to 255 characters. The same limit applies on Feedback on Radio 4, but were I to email Over To You on the World Service I would be granted 500 characters maximum. Is there any particular reason for listeners to the UK services being limited to 255 characters as I’ve easily exceeded that limit in this comment already?
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Leigh
thankyou for this comprehensive round-up, and thanks also to Steve and the team.
RE Homepage Design.
Just to get a 'feel' for the Radio 4 homepage, I took a wander around the homepages for Radios 2,3 and 7.
It is really interesting to compare features:
1. Radio 7 has a blue banner stating 'Radio 4' as the station of the year 2008 on its homepage - where is this on R4's homepage?!
2. At the foot of Radio 2, there is the 'Ways to listen' bar - this would be a great feature for Radio 4, too. Either that or a link to
www.bbc.co.uk/radio
3. Radio 3 (and Radio 7) have a column (like on the BBC homepage) of both 'what's on AND what's coming up.
For listeners who are at their keyboards, mostly we already know what is on (we are listening to it!), but we might want to plan the next hour's listening space.
These features are already out there, and could be simply (?) added to the Radio 4 homepage, to make it stand out as the best of the bunch at BBC Radio.
nick
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Why has it been made so difficult (actually I am finding it impossible) to listen live to Radio4 programs now
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I suggest you look at Beyond Belief to see why the redesign is being received negatively. Beyond Belief is listed under Programmes, but can be found by using the "Search BBC" function. This takes you to the old homepage where the archive goes back to 2002 and is listed by topic, e.g. 'dreams', Darwinism'. There is also a link to the new homepage where archive only goes back to 2007, programmes are listed only by air date - and none are available. Same problems with Thinking Allowed, Material World, In Our Time, etc. Every click on the old website now takes at least 3 clicks on the new site to reach the same goal. Admittedly, the user is now dealing with page after cloying page of glitz and glamour to reach the content, but I think most Radio 4 listeners are interested in substantive content and less concerned with visual high style.
wtempest
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And another thing .... on the old homepage, you could click on Drama, then on Afternoon Play and see all the current week's plays (and the previous week's) with synopsis and cast lists. Easy to plan your listening, easy to listen to something that catches your fancy. No such luck on the new site. The only way to see what's coming up on Afternoon Play appears to be by checking the schedule day by day. As for trying to search by genre - well others have commented on the lack of rhyme and reason in the way programmes are classified.
Yes, as a Canadian listener, a certain amount of Radio 4 programming is local, but a fair amount appeals no matter where you're living - the dramas, In Our Time, Thinking Allowed, Reith Lectures, science. And if there's nothing of immediate interest, there Radio 3, Radio 7 and World Service or the archives of Radio 4 programmes like Beyond Belief, Thinking Allowed or In Our Time to stretch my mind while working at the computer.
This redesign - like the Radio 7 redesign - and the iPlayer seems to have been done with TV viewers in mind - more style, less substance.
wtempest
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I agree with wtempest that the pictures (glitz and glamour) are something I'd rather do without - especially the awful tendency to use faces. The Francis Bacon distortion of the picture at the start of this page, for example.
Especially on the homepage, we want content, not pictures. If you use pictures to break up the monotony of a page, let them be an indication of the subject matter dealt with, not another contribution to the cult of personality or celebrity. Certainly don't ram them at us , dominating the page.
You may call this subjective reaction, but I think you'll find that the psychological effect of large faces placed where we expect information or links to be, is more than just subjective reaction. it's an affront. I'm making a serious point here, not just reacting.
arlatan
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background too white - really, really off putting. Cold and clinical.
Please change it to a 'warmer' colour.
White reminds me of worklife and requests for rapid infomation. If you listen to radio4 day-in-day-out through your computer, clicking the website open is more like 'coming back to the fold' after a hard day's work! Should be warm and familiar.
thank you for taking my opinion into consideration.
Louise
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Will this be converted eventually to the "new look for blogs" format, which,
If that is the intent, will we be warned?Looks good in general.
All the best
Hesiodos
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Do
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I have
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to post
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six comments
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to become a trustie?
;-)
Hesiodos
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So, everybody hates it, but you aren't going to do anything about it. Why am I not surprised?
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Does this workaround for quotations work here?
- "Thank you for your comments. While we're pleased with much about the new site, we always expected to continue work after launch.
It works (after a fashion) on the "new look" blogs.Firstly, I'm sorry that so many of you experienced technical problems over the weekend. There were publishing problems on Friday afternoon which affected the availability of radio programmes. "
;-)
Hesiodos
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Sorry, but I just want to add yet another voice to the criticisms of your new home page, in particular about the wasted space on the large photographs featured. This is a web page for RADIO listeners and I'm sure many of us don't want photographs - certailny not when the main problem is to get enough space on the page for links and verbal information about scheduled progammes. Please get rid of those photos and reduce the need for tedious scrolling. And I really miss the easy access to "Listen Again" in the old form.
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#17,
I guess not, but blockquote still does:
;-)
ed
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Please note that many links remain broken on the new site. When you select a topic area such as News or Drama, my experience continues be that the top link (and sometimes more than the top link) returns '... is not available at this time' or 'This content doesn't seem to be working'. This was most definitely NOT restricted to over the weekend but is an ongoing problem. Please don't publish links to recent broadcasts until the recordings are reliably available.
You comment about adding links to News and Weather websites is patronising and speaks volumes about how far out of touch you are. If I want to read news from a web site I will go to the web site. If I go to the Radio 4 web site I expect to be able to LISTEN to news broadcasts. That's the whole point. This is a choice I am capable of making for myself, I don't need you to make it for me. More than anything else I'd like to be able to listen to the most recent news broadcast reliably from the first link I click. Surely this isn't too much to ask?
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Rubbish website. I've said this before - where is your beta test site? No - I thought not. You dive straight in and make a mess.
PS - where's the Listen Again section gone to?
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How many blogs are you going to start on the radio4 website redesign?
Is this a method to muddy the waters and wear the responders down
till we have no more energy to complain about how non-functional
the new design truly is. I never realised how much I would
miss the old design. Would you at least group all of the plays
that are available to listen to on one easy accessible page.
The functionality loss can be easily demonstrated with the nastiness
of the URL's
The old comedy page URL was obvious and easy to remember
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy
compared to ..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/genres/entertainmentandcomedy
or arts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts
compared to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/genres/drama
No comment on the difference in content, enough has
been said about how useless and unfriendly the new
pages are.
For those of you who are interested as well as those
who have no comments to make but would like to make
your voice heard vote here. http://www.vizu.com/vot/Entertainment/BBC/RADIO4/RADIO/poll-vote.html?n=157092
I have read the BBC blog and message board external links Editorial Guidelines page and this link
is not in violation of those guidelines.
The old website design truly wasn't so bad in comparison, it may have needed a little maintenance. I truly am tired of all the silly pictures
now splattered all of the place, especially when you can't even click
on them. Example the smaller archers graphic on the home page, how
about linking it to the archers homepage.. . you know something
useful. How about a link to the latest truly available archers
episode and not the omnibus... I come to the home page daily not
once a week!
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Muuuuuch better use of space on Radio 4 home page - a sensible width at last! Unlike this blog which is jammed into one edge...
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With respect, the technical problems with the new site were not limited to the weekend; they are ongoing. After endless and frustrating, counter-intuitive trawling to find programs that used to be found quickly and easily, the audio link doesn't work. And to echo the views of other listeners, the whole point of internet access is AUDIO ON DEMAND, not pictures of a show that won't load. Direct links to audio have disappeared. Multiple clicks to find a program result in a message to the effect that it isn't available. The pictures are IRRELEVANT. I've listened to Radio 4 online since it became available and I go to the website to find a DIRECT LINK to a variety of audio content. Listen Again worked, the new system doesn't. This is the worst website redesign I've experienced.
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So far 3 out of 3 programs are unavailable for one reason or another.... why fix unbroken sites? If this continues, make sure Mr. Parsons removes "from around the world" from his intro, as he probably wont be heard,(at least here in the US.)
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Secondly, what happened to "currently off the air"? How can I keep track of favorite shows? The Radio Times is not delivered here!
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Dear Mr Aspin
When I contributed to Mr Bowbrick's blog, pointing out the things I'd noticed weren't working on the new site, he asked me to report any more faults. Since the Listen Again feature has been faulty for months and continues to be after the re-design, I'm going to make a daily report until it is fixed.
As I reported yesterday the Monday episode of Women's hour drama is not working. It is still not working, although episode 2 is available. Not much point in listening to episode 2 if you can't hear episode 1.
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that the extended interview with Rowan Williams which is offered on the webpage for the second episode of the programme on Britishness will not play. That may be God's mercy at work, but I suspect man's inefficiency had more to do with it.
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My last word on the subject conflates two earlier comments: the persons responsible for the redesign have ruined a functional website with cheap gimmickry, producing something that's very pretty and virtually useless. Well done.
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@Oldredhen The first episode of this week's Woman's Hour Drama - Restless by William Boyd - appears to be working now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jcvhg Likewise the interview with Rowan Williams: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jhpj3 (although Rowan Williams does seem to speak EXTREMELY QUIETLY). Both play nicely in Firefox on my BBC-issued PC anyway.
Without actually checking with the iPlayer team I'm going to suggest that you were probably affected by the problems that affected the whole BBC site at the weekend. Try both again and if you find that they're still not working, there's a pretty good help page here: http://iplayerhelp.external.bbc.co.uk/help/playing_programmes
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@frugalfungus On your 'off the air' question, I've found a useful 'all' button on the alphabetical listing pages. The default shows programmes that you can listen to now (like so: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/a-z/by/e using the letter 'e' as an example) but if you click 'all' at the top of the listing you get all programmes including those that are off air (like so: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/a-z/by/e/all). This is the kind of discovery I think we're all going to be making as we get used to the new site.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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I think the site looks great, much cleaner, less cluttered and very modern looking. I'm sure there are things that need to be added to and tinkered with, but that will come, as it has with all the other news sites across bbc.co.uk
I remember people moaning about the main bbc.co.uk homepage when it launched...from what I understand, it's as popular now as it's even been, so, for all the moaning, people stil l use it!
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All sorts of overlaps and mis-matches in Firefox (3.08), (when "zoomed" to get readable text on these comments) but less so in Opera (Version
9.64) and seamonkey (1.1.15)
In general, pictures far too big (especially main one). Pictures ("choice" and "popular") should also all be clickable links - it's often the most obvious and easiest (and real easy to code)
"could do better" - much better!
Not very "Radio Four"
;-(
Hesiodos
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(continued...) And, while you're at it, why not make the link to this blog a bit more obvious? Maybe the
enlarged quote could be made clickable?;-)
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Where has the listen again section gone? It was very straightforward and simple. Programmes were very easy to find. I find your new layout very confusing. Is the podcast the same as listen again? Is that the equivalent? How do I find programmes I have missed that I want to listen to? The comedy section seems to have stuff in it that doesn't look like comedy.
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Has the Iplayer replaced Listen Again and does this mean that there are fewer programs available? This seems unlikely but I dont understand why I can't listen again to The Unbelievable Truth? Can anyone help?
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Leigh,
Aye, that'll be right. The negative comments are too varied to constitute a consensus....But
1. Nobody has said the pictures are too small.
2. Few have said it's an improvement.
3. 44 negative to 5 positive would win most elections....
;-)
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#36 I agree, it does seem strange to highlight programmes you can't listen to...
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On the previous site it was possible to view all of the afternoon plays for the week and for the previous week. It was also ppossible to link to the Friday Play, the Saturday Play etc. It does not appear to be possible to do this fromthe new site.
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Sorry BBC this is a giant leap backwards in terms of useability - please rethink!
Looking for Mark Steel's excellent In Town series I thought it had finished until I realised it was actually a moving target and already relegated to a subsidiary page because I hadn't listened to it quickly enough. This dynamic format also means I've now got a pad and pen by the side of the computer so I can keep track of what I've listened to.
Finally, the easiest way I can find to get to the Archers webpages is to go to play an episode then use the links across the title to get to the familiar electronic arm of Ambridge.
Not good.
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I don't know why you had to change anything. I've tried to find listen again and it's proving practically impossible. Whether I'll make it within the 7 day listening period remains to be seen.
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@lucyb159 and @Briantist I've checked and it seems that The Unbelievable Truth, episode 3 (and other programmes that went missing) was victim of the weekend's technical problems with the iPlayer. It's now back, though, so you can listen to it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jhp5b - there was a painful period during which it was featured on the homepage but not available to listen to. Ouch.
@TheCatholic You can get a pretty comprehensive list of Afternoon Plays here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qrzz - i.e. all the programmes that are available to listen to now.
In general, it's probably worth pointing out that all the programmes that were available before the redesign are still available but sometimes in different ways. And Leigh is keen to point out in his latest post here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/04/the_new_radio_4_web_site_one_w.html that content and navigation will evolve to make things easier to find over time.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Steve,
Thanks for the circular link!
;-)
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@Hesiodos Oops :->
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Why did you have to fix it if was not broken?
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It is so difficult to find Listen Again. It used to take a minute - now I simply can't find it. I want to browse and be inspired not click and click and click into sub menus and find nothing when I get there. Argh.
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"Why did you have to fix it if was not broken?"
This is the internet. A very young place. It's still growing up. I would be much more worried if the BBC kept the designs it had years ago. Keeping up with technology - in this case database driven content - is incredibly important. Every type of medium changes as technology progresses. Websites - the epitome of technology - have to change.
And seriously. Radio 4 is for intelligent people, apparently. Why is it so hard for you to adapt to new things. Surely adaptablity is one the reasons humans evolved into intelligent beings.
If I read "if it ain't broke..." again...
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This is getting ridiculous.
I just tried to listen again to the Now show It's not working.
I went to the news section. I couldn't find the news but the first choice in the list is not working.
Judging from Hesiodos' comments above this blog is in danger of degenerating into a techie love hug so let's try to be clear
There is a problem with content not working
Look at the comments above, ask someone in a BBC office in Delhi to check. You have a problem.
It may work on Firefox on your BBC supplied PC. Here in the real world on my PC with WIE it doesn't work.
Will it help if I begs? ok I'm begging Please try to fix this problem.
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@French_user I feel your pain. Would you do me a huge favour and try The Now Show again and this time make a note of what happens when you try to play the programme and post it back here.
Try this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jf47y and iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jf47y/The_Now_Show_Series_26_Episode_5/
Likewise, which news programme isn't working and what happens when you try? Thanks,
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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I am incredulous - after posting a blog to express how much I dislike the new site a few days ago, I stopped in this morning to see more comments. They are almost without exception IN THE NEGATIVE. However, the latest update from Leigh Aspin includes a comment that there is "not a concensus across the comments we have received". How much more ridiculous can this get? The viewers have spoken and are continuing to do so. Have a little respect for all of us out there who are taking the time to make our feelings known and have the decency to at least acknowledge them.
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Maybe I am not yet used to the new format but I do have problems. I miss the old A-Z format listing all programmes with a thumb nail indication of a programme's content all on one page instead of having to pull up 26 pages separately. Also under "Science" for example dozens of programmes were once listed not just the recent few as of now. Why did you tinker (and spend money) to change a format that was perfectly fine ?
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Dear Mr Bowbrick
Sorry, but I still can't get episode 1 of the Woman's Hour drama to play. I get the message "Woman's Hour Drama: Restless: Episode 1 is unavailable at this time."
I use Firefox 3.0.8 and my OS is Ubuntu. I've tried clearing private data on Firefox and restarting my computer (which sometimes works). I can play episode 2. So, despite the fact that you can get it to play, I think the fault is at the BBC's end not mine.
I'm giving up on Women's Hour drama for this week.
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As of 2 minutes ago
The Now Show Series 26: episode 5 is unavailable at this time
Also on the same page
The Unbelievable truth
Safety Catch
but a different message.
This content doesn't seem to be working . . .
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The news programme was the first choice in the list All seem to be working now but.
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Also Hallelujah in the Choice of the Day section
This content doesn't seem to be working . . .
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As of I minute ago
Safety Catch listenable
The other two still down
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Both links for the Now Show give the same error message as above. Sorry, my mind blanked out when I saw the links.
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the Unbelievable truth is working now.
Whoever is twiddling the connectors behind the dashboard is obviously twiddling the right ones. Keep It up. still no joy with The Now Show and Hallelujah.
Could somebody out there in cyber space please confirm this problem or is it a local effect? DGSE censorship or BBC deciding we don't deserve to hear the good bits in France?
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Talking to myself.
Bad habit
Got to get out more.
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@greatauntedna It's worth pointing out that when Leigh says "there isn't a consensus across the feedback we've received" he's talking specifically about the homepage design, for which he has had a range of opinions, both here on the blog and elswhere (on Twitter, for instance: http://search.twitter.com/search?max_id=1477364089&page=1&q=radio4+site).
Also, the excellent science archive (always a favourite of mine and a pioneering example of content made available in perpetuity) is still available in its old form: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/ and will be integrated with the new design soon.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@gamlelegen Sorry, I should have directed the science part of the previous comment to you! Here it is again!
Also, the excellent science archive (always a favourite of mine and a pioneering example of content made available in perpetuity) is still available in its old form: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/ and will be integrated with the new design soon.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@French_user and @Oldredhen I'm going to pass your problems to the iPlayer support team since I can't reproduce them on my computer and you're evidently still suffering. I'll report back if I learn anything specific.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Let's take the Comedy category. Click on the link on the home page and you're shown a page with a few comedy programmes, some of which you can't yet listen to. At the bottom of the left-hand column, there's a link "6 More comedy programmes available". Why are they on a separate page? Click the link, and lo, a page with *all* the comedy programmes available appears. Why not just connect that page to the Comedy link on the homepage?
Beta testing. It saves a lot of trouble in the end y'know.
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Mr Bowbrick, Thanks for the link to the science archive. For the love of god, please do not let them 'integrate it into the new design soon'. It is currently wonderful. If has information at one click of a button. It has no tiresome images. It works. Even if there is no hope of restoring the rest of the old pages (and I'm betting there isn't, even if the entire R4 audience got down on its knees and begged collectively), at least stop them from 'integrating' (aka destroying) any more of it.
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@French_user and @Oldredhen Sorry, should have said: can you provide me with URLs of the problem pages - the whole web address for each page - then I can ask iPlayer support to take a look. Thanks,
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@BoldRodent You make a very good point. We're all used to these pages (I've been using and linking to the science page for years) but I know that it's a big chore for science department staff to update it and that it can't be automatically updated when a new programme arrives like the new pages. These are the compromises we make.
Also, I count 58 images on the page. Are none of them tiresome? :->
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mr B, The fact that I did not notice the images on the science page I think says it all - they are innocuous and small, and therefore do not intrude on my navigation of the site!
I'm sorry updating pages is a 'chore' - is it not somebody's job???
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Steve,
Surely the neww data-based updating isn't incompatible with the 'old' layout! It's only html/xml!Come on.
;-)
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Why are we faced with an enormous image of the 6.30 comedy person who was on YESTERDAY. One day at a time might be a great motto for some but I think that the new website designers are drunk on their new dumbed down image.
Don't need big writing - not 7 years old. Don't need big pictures - not 5 years old. Do need quick efficient direct links - reaction overall ugh!
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Oh dear, I got modded earlier.
If my critical comments offended, then I am truly sorry and I apologise.
That is what one should do when one is in the wrong.
Could the persons responsible for the new website please take note of that...
Also, why has the complete list of comments been reduced from around 150+ this afternoon (8/4/09) down to the current 70?
Surely not an attempt to reduce the non-positive comments, or possibly just another limitation of the new site?
PS
The new site still doesn't seem to work well with Firefox on Macintosh OS X.
Could be the use of animation/adblocking add ons that I (and many others use) that is causing the problem, but it is too early to state for certain.
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I had great hopes after hearing that the problems with listening to episodes of The Archers would be resolved with the new website, but in fact, if possible, it's worse. And the new "I'm sorry, this content doesn't seem to be working" message is condescending and infuriating. Of course it doesn't seem to be working. What we want from a message like that is some information on why it's not working and when we might expect that it will work. But then again, since nothing works, I guess it would be hard to identify single causes.
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@Cynikal...moi? Comments on this topic are distributed across several blog posts. This one plus this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/designing_the_new_radio_4_web.html this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/more_on_the_new_radio_4_web_si.html this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/the_countdown_has_begun.html and this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/the_new_radio_4_web_site.html. One of those posts has over 150 comments. That's probably the one you're thinking of.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Thanks to hobbs_baranov for spotting the '6 more programmes' link on the comedy homepage. I agree...just take the link away and put the progs all on one page.
What is the point of needless extra clicks???
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I'm absolutely not someone who says I want the old site back - it was flawed and dated and needed fixing. However, what we've got now isn't yet where it should be.
Over the last week I've used the homepage more now, but I like it even less. The overall effect is that the old site has been replaced with a large database of programmes - which in concept is ok, but the formulaic pages are bereft of any real content.
Take the new Saturday Live page, really missing any detailed content - just access to some basic programme info and a bit of puffy promotional material. Click through to the 'no longer updated' archive site and you get more detail and information, presented less formulaically.
The top level navigation menu supports my feeling that we are now searching a database of programmes/podcasts rather than a site bursting with content and knowledge. Perhaps if more time can go into the programmes catalogue content then it will become more valuable, but at the moment it feels like more has been taken away than has been added.
I do agree with that the prominence of podcasts is vital. I already listen to more R4 each week on podcast than I do live. More podcasts!
The new site feels too clinical and as if it lacks any personality. I want to be intrigued, delighted and surprised by content on the website that matches the standard (and supports) your broadcast output. Show me the people behind the programmes, the network, and most of all the extensions of the stories (factual and otherwise) that come through your programming.
We seem to have lost the global 'about R4' type features - I don't know why, but insights into the newsroom, the presenters, the announcers always made me feel closer to the network. Perhaps more blogging across more areas of R4 - and blogging that is more closely integrated with the website would help with that. Where it happens now (PM, Today etc) it works wonderfully.
Keep the database of programmes - I'm sure it will develop into its potential - it is the right direction. However, most importantly give us content not marketing snippets.
Overall, where is the innovation and creativity that gave us the PM blogs? The quirkiness that the network sometimes displays on air? What about all the richness of interface that web 2.0 can provide? I want a website that stands up against the world's best radio station (and I've heard a few!). Be bold!
Finally, I was disappointed by Leigh's recent post. It does seem overly optimistic about the feedback so far - I really, really want to like the site, and I am not a BBC basher, but I'm not currently feeling listened to in my opinions. Please be honest with yourselves about what works and what doesn't - listen to your users and please be honest with us: if budget constraints mean there will be less investment in the website so a database of programmes is all that is feasible, then the direction you've taken makes some sense at least.
I live in hope that it will improve and improve over the weeks to come.
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As an expat I feel "cut off" without my regular access to The Archers. It's all very strange and hit and miss and has happened over the past few weeks only. Currently I am unable to catch up with all episodes including Sunday's. Now that I check I find have also now lost last week's omnibus having been able to hear it on Monday. Last week episode my access "dribbled in" two to three days after each broadcast. This week it's even worse. Access to other programmes is similar. This is not really a complaint, though I am not happy, but I would hate this to continue.
Congrats on the look of the new website - more modern and inviting!
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Leigh:
It looks so much nicer....Congrats on 1 week Anniversary!!!
~Dennis Junior~
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Re comment 73. " At 10:51pm on 08 Apr 2009, bowbrick wrote:
@Cynikal...moi? Comments on this topic are distributed across several blog posts. This one plus this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/designing_the_new_radio_4_web.html this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/more_on_the_new_radio_4_web_si.html this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/the_countdown_has_begun.html and this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/the_new_radio_4_web_site.html. One of those posts has over 150 comments. That's probably the one you're thinking of.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog "
Thanks for the clarification Steve, but this raises yet another issue regarding the new website.
Why is felt necessary to have 4 separate blog threads on basically the same topic?
Oh, by the way the last link that you included is broken...
This unfortunately speaks volumes about the issues that have been raised previously regarding the site's (lack of) functionality.
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@perfectsix Thanks for a very useful comment. Lots of good stuff in there - all of which is listened to, I can assure you- both here at the blog and across the road in Broadcasting House where the interactive team resides.
You are, as you've pointed out, now searching a database of programmes - I think everyone who maintains a web site at the BBC has concluded that's the only sustainable way to maintain big, content-rich sites now. Especially when you imagine how much richer they're going to get over time.
The conclusion is that the mechanical business of 'programme support' as it's called should be done by computers so that it's comprehensive and so that hard-pressed editorial staff can concentrate on creating proper content for the new templates. And the wider, more flexible layout makes it possible for programme teams - In Our Time, Analysis, File on Four etc. etc. - to be more creative and provide more of the context (and quirkiness!) for programmes that we love.
I've only worked at the BBC for a few months but I'm enough of a Radio 4 junkie to have been using Radio 4 sites since the very first one in about 1996 (in fact, I helped build the first one, but that's another story) so I can remember the fuss at each of the previous redesigns (although seven years ago the web was so much more of a minority pursuit!). I am personally certain that a combination of constructive feedback and ideas from users (here and elsewhere) and ongoing design and testing will get the site right for us all.
Jem Stone put together a gallery of previous Radio 4 home pages, by the way. Fascinating: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemstone/sets/72157616156486528/
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@Cynikal...moi? It's a good question. But I'd argue for keeping the current admittedly quite messy arrangement with multiple posts. It's a blog after all and blogs are reverse-chronological records of events - when you scroll down you're rewinding events.
It's difficult to imagine collapsing blog posts from different dates into a single document - you wouldn't get the sense of the passage of time. Besides, our blogging platform is a very simple one and I couldn't make it do that if I wanted to!
Also, the broken URL speaks less about 'the issues that have been raised previously' and more about my typing. I typed a full stop on the end of the final URL which broke it! Try this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio4/2009/03/the_new_radio_4_web_site.html
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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#76
@jubarb
Go to this link and use it as a bookmark and you will never be without anything Archers ever again ... ever!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=Archers
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I am not against the introduction of new tecnology,what has amazed me is that BBC has allowed this new site to be introduced with all its flaws.Surely it should have been tried and tested before using it.
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@evertoned: In these web 2.0 days, it is actually common practice to soft-launch a new site with the word "beta" on it and then quickly fix the problems (as is happening here) so you can then "hard launch" the site again when everything is fixed.
If it were me, I would have added an "Archive" button to the top level navigation for the first few months linking to a list of all the content that is not transferred into the new site.
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@ Briantist Thank you for the explanation.I appreciate it
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I cant find the programs I want- took me ages to find In our time- really frustrating!
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@zoetroped: Clicking on the picture of Melvyn gets it for me...
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@evertoned: The idea is that the site should not just be a collection of static pages (the "brochure" metaphor), but be a platform to build content onto.
By moving all the Radio 4 programmes into the "/programmes" structure, this allows the BBC to have a consitant structure to build the whole of bbc.co.uk, providing a common navigation system over the whole site. This is at the behest of the BBC Trust.
So the "programmes" and "schedules" sections are common over the whole of bbc.co.uk, with the Radio 4 "look and feel" for programmes on this station.
The benefit of this system is that the whole system is dynamic.
Before, someone had to be employed to cut and paste (and sometimes edit) data between the BBC Scheduling system, the website and the "Listen again" system.
By having a common system for the whole of scheduling, iPlayer and the website people can be deployed to do proper editorial work, not cut-and-paste operations.
So, for example, if the /programmes pages are updated to include a new feature (say a "comments, corrections and complaints" item) to the a type of page, it would appear on all pages in the system, benefiting all users.
Another example is regionlization (aka "geocoding"). When you view the bbc.co.uk site from outside the UK, you get advertisments and also realplayer access to iPlayer, not Flash/WindowsMedia.
It seems to me that Radio 4 could do with a programme series about software development. Where's the commisioner's number?
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@Briantist,again thank you,it is so technical to me.I live in Crete and realy on programmes from the BBC,mainly for news.Again thank you for taking the time to explain things
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@evertoned: Glad it helps.
I love Crete. I'm quite proud of my Chania harbour picture that's on wikipedia.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chania_Old_Harbour.jpg
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@bowbrick Thanks very much for your response - it is appreciated. I do agree that the database driven approach is the right one, but it would be good if it didn't LOOK quite so database driven in places!
Yes you are right - I remember fuss about various redesigns too - including other BBC websites. These days the fuss is so much more visible and immediate because of blogs - that HAS to be a good thing, but I guess it also has the potential to be useful, frustrating and dispiriting in equal measure for people your end.
I am encouraged that you and others are listening to what is being said and I look forward to developments (but please give us a slightly less chunky site, with a less shouty ad-box!).
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Bowbrick
#65
Sorry, I really can't be bothered cutting and pasting all those URLs You would get the same effect doing it yourself, so, no point.
I tried various things which were "broken" last night and they are still broken plus lots of others.
I conclude that this problem is actually to do with line speed, BBC server capacity and the popularity of certain programs as:
-only a few people seem to be affected
and
- it is always with the most popular programs or those at the top of the lists or those on the front page.
I have visions of an army of monkeys desperately loading cassette tapes into a wall of ancient Sony portable cassette players (the kind with curly leatherette covers and thin impractical shoulder straps) held together with sellotape, though I'm sure this is not true and anyway the whole internet is a bit like that.
So thanks for the effort and now I'm going back to my cave.
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I am an unwilling exile from the UK, suffering from ME/CFS. ' listen again' was my lifeline, as I cannot get broadband and therefore podcasts.
Could we not all ask , nay beg, for the A-Z 'listen again' page to be reinstalled. Then, once more, we can browse and look for our favourites. They can keep all the fancy stuff as well.
Can internet users strike? I'd like to suggest mass action, I am so upset. this was 50% of my 'life' , now almost impossible to access.
Has anyone found an easy way to browse and find lovely stuff, as in the good old days of March?
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...and I assume that the reason the problem is showing up now is because of the sudden popularity brought on by your shiny new web site.
So, well done chaps. Spiffing job. Victims of your own popularity at last.
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How smug I feel - I thought it might only be me who finds the new design to be a disaster - it is so bad guys - as a previous contributor said, I’m finding it hard to get the comedy/drama programs I used to regularly listen to.
It's quite Ironic that my other favorite station Planet Rock has had months of issues (still ongoing) with their new layout too.
Digital Revolution? Well some sites are revolting....
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Leigh Aspin wrote "there isn't a consensus across the feedback we've received".
Have you taken a look at Steve Bowbrick's post at http://www.flickr.com/photos/bowbrick/3406435527/in/photostream/ ?????????
of the 87 postings he's analysed, 50% were negative. If you take out the "neutral" postings, 80% were negative. I know these were early day postings but then you'd expect to receive most comments in the early days.
Perhaps you could analyse the postings on the multitude of blogs on this issue (why so many?!?!?) and let us know
How many positive.
How many negative
How many neutral
How many technical issues
but then again WHY BOTHER?
I've come to recognise a pattern amongst BBC personnel. Never admit a mistake.
Justs image the newspaper headlines....... "£millions wasted as Radio 4 is forced to admit new website was a mistake"
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It slowly gets worse,
Today I'm greeted by huge picture
of Mark Steele. At least his face is
clickable.. taking me to another page,
which tells me what?
A whole lot of nothing but I do
have a button to listen to it.
So why not have a button to listen
to it on the front page. Maybe
lose some of the real estate of that
huge face. I don't want to read
about the program I just want to listen
to it. Joy oh joy of course the program
now does not play.
I dig around trying
to find my favorites to discover less
and less will play.
"This content does not seem to be working please try again later" !!!!
You guys are wearing my mouse out.
Can you take the photographers budget away and spend it on functionality.
We love the creativity of the people
on Radio4 not what they look like.
For those of you who are interested as well as those
who have no comments to make but would like to make
your voice heard vote here. http://www.vizu.com/vot/Entertainment/BBC/RADIO4/RADIO/poll-vote.html?n=157092
I have read the BBC blog and message board external links Editorial Guidelines page and this link is not in violation of those guidelines.
I just want to listen to my favorite Radio 4 programmes... Come home have a cup of tea and listen to the afternoon play.
If you hear screaming .. it's me.. I just
got "This content does not seem to be working please try again later" !!!!
again... and again.
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the front page is rather confusing - it constantly advertises first of all, a programme I have already missed - which is irritating. Presumably the colour bars underneath are relevant in some way but I do not know how. None of the highlit programmes in the main screen advertise when they are being broadcast - that is truly weird - do you not want us to listen to them?
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The new website seems to contain less than half the information that the old did and when I Do manage to find the afternoon play im only offered three choices . And I have had to jump thru the web hoops to comment . What's someone going to do break in and fraudulently post an opinion thats not really mine. the last site was luxuriousl by comparison.
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This is really hopeless - nothing loads properly, I have to use pod casts to listen to most episodes of the Archers and I have waited ALL week to listen to the last episode of Daunt and Dervish but it will NEVER load. Now it tells me I have only 12 hours left to listen.
Do you actually understand how frustrating it is to miss the last episode of a series. It simply makes me not want to bother trying anything else.
Radio 4 is doing itself massive harm with such incredibly poor service. I don't see any signs whatsoever of any attempt at improvement in spite of hundreds and hundreds of complaints.
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What I'm missing is the "What's on now" feature at the top of the page. Usually I log into the bbc/radio4 homepage, see what's on at the moment and then decide whether to listen to that or "listen again" to something else. Now it seems I have to start the "listen live" screen first and only then I see what's on.
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@resila
That is really odd - quite a few people have complained about that being missing - but it is there! On the grey bar at the top under the BBC logo it says "ON RADIO 4 NOW".
Perhaps we just need to get used to where it is on the screen - or they need to make it more obvious.
The '+more' button allows you to see more about the programme and also what is coming up next. Takes up a chunk of space, but I think it is work it, so I leave it switched on.
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As with most 'up-dates' of anything these days less is actually given in the revamp.
The web-pages look liike they were designed by the person who designed telephone number pads for old people...BIGGGG sections but very little on the page overall.
Having got an old version of the web-page on my PC that had a lot of information on it easy to find, no need to scroll down to try and find things. It was all on one page.
This happened when the BBC news pages were redesigned: less on them and the need to scroll.
Why they had to totally change the layout when I would assume that the new software could have been placed 'beneath' the old layout I do not know. And if this was not possible then: hurrah for progress!
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As others have mentioned the A-Z page of old was something I loved. I was able to see dozens of possible programmes to listen to on one page and managed to stumble across gems that I would otherwise have missed but now one only get a few programmes on the first page due to all the BIG irrelevant stuff above it.
It's not as if Radio 4 listeners are early learners. We are capable of taking in a lot of information quickly hence afetr a few seconds of looking at a page with dozens of prpgrammes on we can see whether there is anything relevant. Now we have to start scrolling everywhere just to get to the information that we never had to scroll to.
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Great progress.
A few suggestions:
- Category of "Business" would be appreciated
- I used to use the website many times a day, never closing it. I find it very annoying having to scroll down to the content on the lower part of the home page every time. Couldn't we opt to hide the large images?
- The "Radio 4" logo might as well be a link to "Home" too
- Search box would be useful. Perhaps under the "Find a Programme"?
"View for Schedule"
- Could you have links at the top to "Mid-day" and "Evening" or similar (alongside the toggle Schedule at a glance/Full schedule) so we can link down?
- "Schedule at a glance" is exactly NOT what it says. You could remove the lines and drop the separation to 3px with ease.
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Leigh,
I love the homepage, with one exception.
Users attracted to content click on images before text links. So why aren't the images clickable?
best,
Jon Kingsbury
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I'll certainly support the request for the schedule to be divided, with quick links, to morning, afternoon and evening. It's really annoying to have to scroll so far down to see the evening detail.
You could reduce the size of the text and reduce the white space between each entry - would give a much more compact and efficient appearance.
And could not this theme be combined with the "feedback on website redesign" theme - all seems to be covering the same or similar ground.
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I'm sorry, but your new page is absolute and unashamed garbage. For example, what category is Counterpoint in? Where can I see a list of all the information about the complete week of Afternoon Plays? Why aren't the days, dates and times of the original broadcasts mentioned? Why have you made it so difficult for us listeners abroad to navigate your archives? Why can't i view all the comedy and quiz programmes of a week in a single page? And on and on and on!
Please stop the double talk. After all, we all know that, "We've had some positive comments about the homepage but I've also noted that some people don't like the top promotion area or our use of images" means that the new design has been almost universally condemned.
When will you stop fiddling with the near perfect? Remember -- If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Please stop the children playing with the design and offer us a mature homepage once again.
Disgruntled in Tokyo
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It would be great if you could have a "now on" box near the top of the page. It would make it easier for those of us who live in a different time zone to see what is on without having to navigate to the schedule page and then work out the time difference.
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Cringed yet again at huge image on home page, clicked on "schedule", scrolled down to "Archers" clicked on this and tried to play yesterday's episode. It won't play.
Seems like loads of people i.e. the majority are having this kind of problem.
What an awful job you've made of it all.
Make the pictures smaller (and relevant to content) and make it work better.
Listener in France
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The most frustrating element of the new site is the radical departure from the original "listen again " facility. It wasn't broken why did you try to fix it, and at a cost I do not even want to imagine.
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The new style is fine - but why is there less information in the detailed schedule pages?
Any chance of a similar amount of detail to the old format? (Perhaps even a Detailed Schedule to match the At A Glance version?)
Now you have to click through to the programme page to get (even) more.
eg
OLD: Book of the Week
Sisters of Sinai, by Janet Soskice. 4/5: Having discovered an ancient Syrian text of the four Gospels, Agnes and Margaret return to Mount Sinai with various academics in tow.
NEW: Book of the Week
Sisters of Sinai, Episode 4
4/5. The sisters return to Mount Sinai with various academics in tow.
With click through to the programme page showing
By Janet Soskice. The true story of the two sisters who discovered one of the earliest known copies of the Bible on Mount Sinai in 1892. Read by Stella Gonet.
Having discovered an ancient Syrian text of the four Gospels, Agnes and Margaret return to Mount Sinai with various academics in tow. But on their return to England an argument erupts over who should take the credit for their find.
A Pier Productions production for BBC Radio 4.
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I'm currently living in Vancouver Canada but continue to listen to Radio 4 daily. My favourite programmes are Today, the Archers, the Friday Play, Saturday play and the Classic Serial on Sunday.
Since the new website appeared I haven't been able to listen to the Archers as a Listen Again feature - a technological problem perhaps?
My main issue with the drama choice is that you don't know which genre it's going to be, other than the Sunday serial which is "classic". It's not easy to find the other dramas because you don't know if they are "crime" or whatever. This was never a problem on the old website.
Any advice on this?
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I agree with other comments re the photographs which are irritating and unnecessary. Personally I found the old web page perfectly user friendly and I wonder if this is change for change sake. I miss the efficiency of being able to jump to afternoon eve' on the daily schedual page and finding programmes for listen again takes much longer. Also concur with the problem re finding archive material. Why did you have to so radically change? If it 'aint broke don't fix it.
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People are asking: why less content on each page?
For the same reason the revamped BBC news pages have less information on them: it's cheaper; it requires less input from people to create and hence less time to keep up-to-date therefore the BBC saves money.
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@ perfectsix
Right! Got it! Thanks!
*feeling really silly*
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What a terrible site. Just thought I would listen to a play whilst doing my ironing. Gave up after 20 minutes.
The old site you would look up ‘plays’. Quick review of what it was about then on with the ironing. I then wanted to comment to you about it and ended up with things like ‘bloggs’ and ‘twitters’.
Any idea how I can listen to an archived play when I want to…………..??
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I /hate/ this new website. It’s like trying to eat a five-course meal with tweezers. By the time you’ve got a potato in your mouth you’ve lost interest.
I /hate/ the “most recent on BBC Iplayer” idea. I /hate/ having to search high and low for genre programmes that were originally on a single page. I /hate/ the idiocy which puts “Front Row” on a page devoted to Easter. I /hate/ that Science does not appear in genres on the programmes page. I /hate/ that there are ill-conceived empty genres such as "Learning" - "Learning", mind you, what the heck kind of programme is this supposed to describe? - appearing on the programmes page. Similarly, I /hate/ that programmes have been categorised also into formats such as the empty "Reality" and "Docudrama". Who thinks up this rubbish? I’m really peed off with this. Radio 4 was represented very well, I feel, by the site it had - now it just looks like a mess which is trying to appeal to some kind of meeja studies grad’s idea of contemporary.
I’ve spent a good 40 minutes this morning looking for something interesting to play and I doubt I would find anything if I spent another 40 minutes at it. I used to enjoy breakfast with Radio 4 - I used to enjoy great swathes of my day with Radio 4, in fact. Now it’s just a chore even looking for old favourites. Bring back the previous pages.
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Dear Mr Bowbrick
From your comment saying Broadcasting ouse was across the road I'm guessing you're based at Langham Place in which case would it be possible to correct your Postal Address Online as it still reads the same as BH's usual one?
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@Sue_Aitch Which postal address do you mean? Can you direct me to a page showing the address? Thanks,
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Does the new design of the webpages mean we have permamently lost some features? i.e Listen Again for GQT and the Food Programme?
This would be a great pity. The previous update was not that far back in the past and seemed to function far better in terms of navigation and ease of use.
Was another revamp necessary so soon?
It is difficult to be 'constructive' when there seems to be little to be constructive about so far. Perhaps before spending the license fee on repeated updates you could check with your audience what changes they want - if any.
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@SidleyPark Thanks for your thoughts. You raise a few points that I think will be of interest to lots of listeners so I'll see if can address them here:
First, the reorganisation of programme content hasn't suited everybody, that's for sure. I can confirm, though, that it's all still there (I've been spending the last week digging up 'lost' items for frustrated listeners and nothing's eluded me yet!). One thing that I'm going to be suggesting to the designers (I can't be sure this is even possible so don't quote me!) is an additional view of the top Programmes page that shows all currently available programmes in one view - that would be a pretty hefty page (with a lot of scrolling) but would answer a lot of the heartfelt cries for the old 'Listen Again' page.
Second, Front Row appears on a page of Easter programmes because it features an item about Easter programming and was consequently 'tagged' 'Easter'. This is an early sign of a new and useful way of uncovering interesting programmes. As programme makers get used to tagging their programmes with useful, descriptive words and phrases we'll be able to locate interesting stuff to listen to more easily, although we'll have to get used to the occasional apparently anomalous appearance like this one - I think it might produce more surprises, though, which would be a good thing.
Third, genres. This is an interesting one. The genres and formats on display on the new Radio 4 Programmes page apply to the whole of the BBC's output, hence the oddball empty pages like 'animation' and 'reality'. One approach to this might be to automatically hide genres and formats that don't contain any Radio 4 programmes. I don't know if that's possible but I'm going to ask the Radio 4 interactive team if they're thinking about it.
'Learning' is a pretty meaningless category when applied to Radio 4 (it's all about learning, right?) but take a look at the page listing 'Learning' programmes from the whole BBC and you'll find 51 programmes available to watch or listen to now and 150 coming up! http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/learning
While we're on the subject, 'science' does appear as a genre on the Radio 4 home page http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 but appears as a sub-genre of 'factual' on the Programmes page. Science is clearly a valid top-level genre for Radio 4 because there's a lot of science output on the network - not necessarily for the rest of the BBC's output, though.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@inessex Here's a pretty good list of Radio 4 drama - all 36 programmes you can listen to now.
It's two clicks from the Radio 4 homepage: click 'Drama' in the list of genres, then click the 'n programmes available now' link to display all the shows that are in iPlayer now.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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cheers, Steve for that last link.
all 36 programmes listed as you say.
I have just looked - I thought I might listen to something a bit later - and they are all jumbled up.
.Book at bedtime episode 5
.Archers
.Hazelbeach
.Womans hour
.Afternoon play
.What a carve up
.The Stanley Baxter Playhouse
Some are called by their slots, and some by their titles.
It is clearly the output of a 'search' sorted by 'days left to listen'.
What would be quite handy, would be the option for the Listener to relist by title, or alphabetically, or by slot.
Is this something that Radio 4 can do?
nick
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Steve, your:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/genres/drama/player/episodes
is a reasonably useful page. But why isn't Book of the Week there? (Other 'books' are.)
Interestingly, there isn't a structurally equivalent page for the readings genre:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/genres/readings/player/episodes
The readings list equivalent is now under the 'formats' category:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/formats/readings/player/episodes
It seems that 'formats' are panradio based, as per:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/programmes/formats
These formats do not include 'drama'.
So why is drama only a 'genre' and not a 'format', i.e. not panradio-based, and why is readings both a 'genre' and a 'format'?
Russ
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I've just looked up the accessibility guidelines V1.4 13.1 and notice that "Page layout must accommodate the enlarging of text" but unfortunately on my Windows Internet Explorer browser the new homepage does not accommodate text set at "medium". Do hope you will be able to do something about this as I enjoyed having Radio 4 as my homepage. As I'm completely addicted to Radio 4 and 3 I don't have any other problems with the site! Apologies if this is a question already under consideration!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The new web site is horrible. I used to spend hours listening to the wonderful programs, finding new and interesting programs, and navigating about but now I have given up. Information is hard to find and for the past two weeks I have been terribly frustrated. I will now find new sites to get the information and programming that I used to enjoy on BBC4. BBC4 made a huge mistake with the redesign. It is horrible!
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Okay. I finally give up!
You win..... but you've just lost another listener!
I am totally stressed through trying to use your new website.
When, oh when will you listen to what people want?
Maybe I'll try again next year, but I expect I'll have found something else by then.
Bye Bye.
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I'm really not getting on with the new layout at all - keep telling myself it'll get easier, but no luck so far. I generally use the Listen Again feature for Drama/Readings etc and find the new layout much less clear than the old one which clearly listed the week's drama day by day. The whole interface just seems utterrly random.
Also, the website doesn't work in Firefox which is my preferred browser.
Sorry, I know it's early days but I have already attempted to use the website and just given up - not a good sign...
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...oh, and how do I get back to the R4 home page from here? This should be on every single page: I believe they teach this on Day 1 of the Beginners Guide to Web Design, Very Basic Level..
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A fresh look is always a double edged sword - exciting but confusing. So, I resisted any comments immediately - but Saturday is my day for Listen Again and I have not found all the changes helpful. I really do not need to know how many comedies or dramas will be coming up, but I would like to know what has been on in the last week at a glance. I really missed the old layout for dramas today, which was quicker and easier to navigate and gave me key information such as length of programme (ie if an afternoon play mid week bound to be 45 mins). The new headings for Comedy purely subjective and again why would I want to know how many programmes are coming up over and above other key information such as a summary of content.
Miss the link to Radio 7.
Miss the shortcut straight to the Archers.
Miss the easier at a glance layout of old webpage.
Look forward to being able to the technology whereby knowing that there are 15 more dramas coming up will be of use to me.
Thought it might just be me but my three teenage children all complained too!
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Dislike the whole reorganization especially that you can only listen to programmes 7 days out. Very hard to navigate through the website now.
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What's the matter, Steve? Was my earlier attempt to post a comment too true for you to allow it to be read by others, that 10 hours later, it still says
"# 126. At 3:28pm on 11 Apr 2009, Philcurmudgeon
This comment has been referred to the moderators."
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I thought the previous Radio 4 web site was fine apart from the occasional failure to complete the links.
Now the whole thing is "broke" when it didn't really need fixing - I say - bring back the old Home Page.
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Good point. The "fix it even if it isn't broken" mentality pervades all aspects of our life these days. Employees think they need to make their mark (so they can quote their "accomplishments" in their CV). e.g. "While employed by the BBC, I completely renovated the Radio 4 website. Ain't I grand." And, of course, no mention is ever made of the fact that the renovation was a failure that everybody hated.
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A complete mess, and 100% inferior to the previous site. Stripped of the previous rich content, now just a bare machine for listening to the last weeks radio (and even that doesn't work properly).
Well done!
And instead of doing proper testing in private first with some experienced customers, you just launch it and get the listeners to do your testing for you.
Genius!
Now you can continue to ignore the huge groundswell against the new site, confident in your own deluded minds that it is a success with just a few teething problems and a few "awkward" people complaining.
The operation was successful (even though the patient died).
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I have used the new site for the second time,it is confusing,why waste our money on constant tinkering with something that worked,if it aint broke don't fix it.This is non pc but quite frankly it sucks!
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@Philcurmudgeon Looks like someone referred your comment for moderation. Users can do this by clicking the 'Complain about this comment' link. It's then sent to the BBC's central moderation team where they apply these rules.
In this it's similar to the way things work on the messageboards. I'm also allowed to complain about comments, although I've never done so. As to the delay, I imagine the moderation team are short-handed, it being a long weekend in the UK, so we might have to wait a bit longer for a verdict.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Sorry to say, no great improvement.
Difficult to find the list of todays programmes. It's far from "user friendly".
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Having spent a pleasant day in the garden, and all the garden waste on to the compost heap, my wife & I thought it would be nice to listen to GQT, If only it were available @ 19:00hrs on a Sunday evening. But pehaps it is? Please can somebody tell me how to find it?
It was so easy on the old site....
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@johnchaplin Thanks for pointing this out. Today's GQT is not available in iPlayer (and consequently not available on the Radio 4 site). I've asked the iPlayer team if they can figure out why. I'll let you know when I find out.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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I have regularly listened to The Archers about an hour after each evening broadcast. Following launch of the revamped this has been impossible as there is an apology offered that it is not possible to broadcast it.
Is this a temporary blip?
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Thanks Steve, We really want to hear GQT
All the best. John
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This is possibly the worst website design I've come across, totally unsuited to its purpose, difficult to navigate, user-unfriendly. I suggest the BBC revert to the earlier website while its tech department has another go. And, with hope, does better.
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I agree that there is a consensus, and it is not favorable to this redesign. There seems to have been a colossal wastage of resources doing something which Radio 4 lovers never wanted. I don't think Mr. Leigh and Mr. Bowrick have understood who the Radio 4 audience are. Many of us do not like the BBC website redesign at all (same reasons - obnoxious photos in your face, stuff which is not wanted or not accessible), so deferring to that does not really help.
Whom do we complain to now, then? MPs? or somebody taking management decisions in the BBC?
This is a serious question.
Thank you.
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Quite simply, I can no longer see what is on... or what what is on is ... or what might be interesting, so have already in just one week started to listen less to BBC and more to music channels
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So I couldn't get the Food Programme on the Olympics on Saturday, couldn't get the 1st Episode of last weeks Book of the Week (effectively making the rest of it redundant). When I click on Crossing Continents on the Schedule page I get the usual big "Listen" word in the middle of a load of mainly white space, with NO indication on that page that there is also a podcast available. I click again on a Crossing Continents link in the right hand corner and I get another new Crossing Continents page, with some previous programmes and a podcast link, but mainly more white space, and only when I then click on the Crossing Continents Homepage link do I get the old text rich CC page. And the podcast for last week is not available but the Kosovo one is available twice! What is the point? And three clicks to get to the page where previously one was fine. Genius! And you still can't even get to the Radio 4 homepage by clicking the "4" in the top left hand corner, which is an obvious option that anyone designing webpages for more than half an hour would have done (and Radio 7 have indeed done it). How stupid are your designers? Utter utter crap!. Whoever your "webdesigners" are, you (meaning us licencepayers) have obviously been ripped off something awful. You really haven't got a clue what you are doing. Time to go over your heads to the BBC Trust to end this ridiculous charade I think......anyone want to join me?
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Is there a quick route to catch up on the latest Archers episode? With the old website layout there was an Archers link on the Radio4 page which took me straight there.
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Sorry chaps...but this new site is typical of 'dumbed down' navigation, from which web designers suffer when out of touch with Joe visitor. With this affliction, design triumphs over ease of use.
I would love to know what problems were percieved with the previous design which have been addressed with this latest mash up.
The attempt to fracture categories and bury content along a chain of links, in the hope that the designers semantics match the visitors yields the frustration writ large in the blog.
Navigation is about getting where you want with speed and efficiency, with minimum clicks and maximum use of the screen for information.
Pictures should aid navigation, not displace it or mystify the visitor. PLEASE bring back the old site and think again, this time testing on users before committing.
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Regarding the missing archives ... just as an example ... try Frontiers.
It should be in the Science page that was linked to above.
However, since it has not been on very recently and is not coming in next few days - then it does not appear.
If you go to the A-Z listing to find it - and then ask to see the archive ... then you will eventually get to a list of (at the moment) 24 hows
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qy5p/episodes
this only goes back to 2007 - and the show content is not linked anyway!
On the old site - there was what looked like a complete set of content back to 2003 and you could listen again to any of them.
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I still hate the site, still find it useless and am avoiding going to it simply because I get slapped in the face by a huge picture of some person on the home page.
However what is the point of complaining to the BBC? People will get tired of complaining, the complaints will die away and the website will stay as it is. The lack of complaints will be 'spun' as people accepting the website and it being a success. The BBC is an arrogant organisation which always appears to believe it knows what's best for us and will NEVER back down or give in to public opinion. There have been many, many complaints about the intrusive photo on the home page but it's still there, and there it will stay whatever the visitors to the site want. The quality of our life is constantly degraded in this way and there's nothing we can do - except listen to NPR or emigrate.
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Yes, andyyosb I will join you in going to the BBC Trust and pause111 I agree with all you have said. I have posted my thoughts on the other blog. I hate this new website. Sadly though I have my doubts that anyone at the BBC will listen to us.
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ARGGGh....I have just tried to find my way back here to view an earlier comment.....and I 'stupidly' expected to find it under MESSAGE BOARDS....Silly me...the hack new designers at BBC called it a 'BLOG', (defined in Wikipedia as "a type of website, usually maintained by an individual"....."personal online diaries"....etc...
so I was looking under 'Message Boards' in vain.
THIS is NOT a BLOG it is a MESSAGE BOARD...but given the semantic scramble of the rest of the new site ...why am I not surprised..?
Typical of the rest of the navigational debacle....I still dont understand what 'problems' with the old site have been addressed with this revision...but since this is not a BLOG...no ones going to answer here are they?
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The huge image area does nothing for me. It is a waste of space. Sure, the whole site looks slick but I don't get what I want. The previous version was compact and I could easily find links to items of interest.
I want to know what is currently on air and to easily find 'listen again' items. Occasionally, I will want to browse by category to find something interesting to listen to.
Hope this is useful for you.
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I don't think the new site is bad at all. The homepage is big, bold and gives decent recommendations and there's immediate information about what is book at bedtime or the new science programmes etc. if you just click on the right link. Removing the complete Listen Again list is somewhat inexplicable (unless I just can't find it) but the only real issue I have at the moment is the disappearance of much of the archive which, it is promised, will come back soon. The Radio 7 website is really top notch now and I believe that Radio 4's will be in the near future.
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Problems Finding Programmes.
With the 'old' system Drama would list all the Drama programmes, Friday Play, Afternoon Play, Classic Serial etc.
This has now disappeared with Drama being classified under Types (Action, Crime etc.).
It seems as though the website has now been redesigned to satisfy the needs of iPlayer (that is everything is iPlayer centric) rather than supplying information in a easy-to-navigate manner.
For instance the Afternoon Play webpage included details on the current week’s plays plus the previous weeks plays and included a link to listen to them.
The new ‘improved’ webpage has links for the current plays available in iPlayer, with minimal information about the play. To find out what plays are scheduled another link has to be clicked. Also the link has a bizarre URL, which, and I am guessing here, means that it cannot be also be used to find out what plays are scheduled for the next few days. With the old useful system I could bookmark the Afternoon Play webpage and access it directly with a simple click and it would have all the information needed. This is now not true.
In summary I think the new design of the website is to satisfy the webpage techies and has been designed around iPlayer. The BBC needs to realize that iPlay is a tool that should be used rather than being served.
Definitely not impressed.
Mick
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I tried to log into the iPlayer feedback area but it would not take my userid. Do I have to register differently to give feedback on iPlayer?
The feedback was that the Archers 12 April show was not playing back using Firefox. I took the iPlayer link http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00jlyz1 and directly pasted that into RealPlayer and it worked that way.
PS Get rid of iPlayer and just use RealPlayer, you know it makes sense).
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The response to the new website seems to be overwhelmingly negative, so to say that there isn't a consensus is disengenuous.
I add my plea to get rid of the photographs- I wince when I log on to the site.
I would like to go straight to the News Headlines without too much clicking and, when I finally get there, not to have to work my way through all the tabloid clutter.
Please just admit that the new design is a failure and implement some of the suggestions made by discerning critics.
(Or go back to the original, which was just fine).
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Agree with 156 really.
There's obviously a lot more work needed on navigation - I keep finding the old features by accident after a lot of work. If I was new to the website I wouldn't have a clue.
Once that works though the tagging idea is really good.
I do like the front page though - it's more like opening a what's on magazine. Taling of which the what's on feature is useful because you can link to the relevant information you're listening to, but the what's next would be equally useful.
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OK I take it back - a little playing around and it's a 1000 times quicker than the old site.
The other really good thing is the quick link from the front page to programme genre and the link to play the programme on i player. If you know what you're after it seems far quicker - you're not bogged down by information if you don't need it, but it's there if you click on the programme then more details on the right (easy to miss that).
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For those that are struggling in the absence of a Listen Again type page I suggest you try http://www.iplayerconverter.co.uk . If you choose Browse Audio on Demand / Listen Again listings and then Radio 4 you should get a list of all radio content that's available on iPlayer, with clickable links to play the content in RealPlayer.
I'm afraid the site doesn't have the historical content that the old Radio 4 site did, as that's not in the BBC Backstage XML feeds that power the site.
Disclaimer - I'm the author of the above site. It's not a BBC site but it is done under the auspices of their Backstage project that allows sites like mine to reuse BBC content.
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Regarding the R4 website redesign, why can't I link directly from the new R4 pages to the BBC Radio page (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/) - so I can browse other BBC radio station pages directly?
To do this I have to use the browser's back button or click on BBC Homepage and then click BBC Radio.
Why insulate users from other BBC stations?
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I actually quite like the new design, I think it's fairly clean and easy to scan and the single large image is quite attractive. I use the website to navigate to podcast/listen again pages and this it does very well; it's a means to end and not a destination in itself.
Let's face it, the majority of visitors probably only dimly registered that the design of the website had changed and happily went about their business. What we have here is the vocal minority of around 100 annoyed people, who probably don't like any sort of change. I am sure it seems as if someone has deliberately ruined your life, but you will get over it.
If something doesn't work (an iplayer link for example), then although it may make you feel better to give the context on why it destroyed your life, it won't actually help to get the problem solved. What you need to do is explain what you did and in what way it didn't work. Give the people that run the site some credit, they have done some sort of testing themselves, therefore either you are doing something different to them, or your computer is different to theirs.
@jonmor23
I think (hope) that the navigation options available were chosen on the basis of what people actually use (maybe brodrick could confirm?). I speculate that most Radio 4 listeners didn't navigate to the BBC radio page - I certainly don't remember ever using it.
If few people use a link, it is just clutter to the majority. Not everyone gets to have what they want - if they did we would have thousands of links and an unusable mess. As you have pointed out, the back button works really well, so why not use that, or bookmark it in your browser?
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Re. the previous 'now and next' on the homepage.
Knowing the next programme is very helpful.
If I am told what is on now, that's fine, but I've obviously missed some of it. Knowing what's on next means I'll catch it all, if I wish.
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@abstractbaroque I see your point. It's all gone a bit messageboard over the last couple of weeks hasn't it? I can assure you, though, that it's still a blog. Look at the latest post, for instance: a round-up of reviews of Radio 4 output from the last week. You wouldn't get one of those on a messageboard would you?
I think your question about the old site's problems is a valid one and, looking back through posts on the redesign, I'm not sure we've ever really summarised what they were. I'm going to ask Leigh Aspin for a bullet list of problems the redesign addressed.
@jonmor23 and @grahambleach I think it's right to assume that where links have been removed from the new site it was because they were little used on the old site. I know this is the case with links to weather and news, for instance.
@apr309 If you click the little green plus sign, top right, you'll get 'what's on next' and the page will remember your choice so the next time you visit 'what's on next' will be visible from the start. Took me a while to locate the link too.
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@johnchaplin I asked the iPlayer people what had happened to Sunday's GQT and, lo, a chain of emails and much diligent techie twiddling later, it is available! A glitch of some kind, I'm afraid. Thanks for your patience. Listen here.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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The website just does nothing for me - style over substance - it looks fresh, but it's a horror to navigate around and the links I use frequently have gone - the weather for example.
A bit of an own goal.... as one contributor put it "fix, broke, don't...."
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RE: Post 161
Check out adancy's post above if you want an easy to use listen again list for every national BBC radio station. Thanks adancy, consider yourself bookmarked!
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@culopeloso @adancy Another useful alternate view of iPlayer content is iPlayerlist, which sort of does what it says on the tin.
We're going to see more of these alternate views of BBC content over time. Developers can get the data they need in the form of publicly available feeds, like the ones from BBC Backstage used in iplayerconverter or by using the information here.
This raw data's not much use to ordinary listeners but the techies will use it to build all sorts of useful services.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Apart from the fact that a station devoted to intelligent discussion is now inappropriately represented by enormous pictures and little verbal information, the very saddest thing about this 'improved' website is the irreplaceable loss of archived material on so many programmes: particularly on Bookclub, the Film Programme and many other arts programmes. As a university lecturer in South Africa, I have used the Radio 4 website as a valuable teaching tool for years, ever since discovering Radio 4 while completing my PhD at Cambridge. I have just recently recommended the Bookclub interview with Nigerian novelist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie to one of my students who is currently writing a long essay on her work. Of course, since the fateful change of the website, this programme is "not available to listen again" and it seems it will never be accessible to my students again! Likewise many others on this programme. Why? A website I once used as a source of news, information, and as a teaching tool has been rendered virtually useless by the new changes - and all we are offered is a spurious explanation about "rights restrictions". This has always been the case with a programme such as Desert Island Disks, for obvious reasons, but what possible reason did you have for completely eradicating most of the interviews with contemporary authors on Bookclub? How is this restriction of access to information possibly an improvement? These interviews are still relevant and used by students and book lovers around the globe. I would have thought that the value of internet radio is 1) that it allows accessibility to people all over the world, and 2) it provides an archive of programmes, which turns an ephemeral medium into an incredible source of educational information. Alas, now, unless you live in Britain and buy a tape recorder to record the radio live, everything is lost to you for all time after those first, precious 7 days. Hardly a technological step forward! I have no words for my distress at this damage done in the name of 'improvement' to your service as a radio station. And the cheerful tone with which so many listeners complaints are being brushed off by the Radio 4 blog team as mere 'teething pains' is simply a strategy for not listening to us -- now, or in the future. Radio 4 was once one of the best internet sites in the world. Why have you destroyed so many of your wonderful available archives? And why won't you listen to your devoted listeners?
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@mzantsi Quickly jumping in to reassure you (and other concerned listeners) that Radio 4's archive hasn't gone anywhere. Look on the right-hand side of the Book Club page and you'll see a link to Book Club Archive where you should find everything you're looking for. The same applies to all of Radio 4's archive content, none of which - I'm very happy to say - has been removed.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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These archives were not available when I wrote my previous comment. I checked carefully on specific programmes before posting my comment, and if they had been available I'd not have complained. I'm glad to see you are listening to us. Thank you for restoring the Bookclub and the Film Programme archives - these are invaluable resources for students. I am greatly relieved. Please don't remove them again.
Now - about those great big pictures of people's faces...... perhaps it would be best to simply design the homepage so that a bit more information about the day's programmes can be seen at a glance and navigation doesn't require quite so much scrolling. But these are visual concerns. The SOUND is what matters. So, many thanks for giving us back the archives.
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Please check this link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00b45s0
Here this page simply states that this Bookclub programme on Chimanda Ngozi Adichie is no longer available - but it is - at the Archive for the programme on another page on the lovely old website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/bookclub_archive.shtml
This is very confusing - someone needs to work through each programme and test the links to ensure there is no conflicting information about availability. With all the changes it is easy for listener to think we've lost something that is now simply less easy to find. Whatever you do please don't delete the archive pages.
thanks.
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Hi Steve (169)
Thanks to you and @adancy for the information on alternate views for iPlayer.
I would like to be able to recreate the information Afternoon Play webpage where it had the current week and previous week’s plays listed with the ability to listen again to Monday-Friday.
I also have a machine that is too ‘old’ for iPlayer and I had created a webpage of direct-to-realplayer links. Some of these still work (listen now to Radio1->4) but the links for the Archers Sunday-Friday and Afternoon Play listen again are now failing. If that page can help create those that would be great.
Thanks
Mick
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One simple request: Please, please, please restore the Archive to being ordered by broadcast date.
The Excess Baggage archive for example - who on earth knows the subjects of the programs?
Someone already mentioned this above but this is another plea!
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Pause111 (151),
Sad, but oh so true! ;-(
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@RedYetiDave I think I understand your request. I notice that the ten programmes available to listen to on the programme's page here are in reverse chronological order (the most recent programme is at the top) and the episodes shown in this more comprehensive list of episodes are in chronological order (most recent at the bottom). Both seem to make sense in context. Which do you prefer?
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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I've used the new Radio 4 web site a bit now and it is starting to drive me crazy because it is so hard to find the individual programme web sites.
I'll give you an example. Today, I wanted to send a message to the Case Notes team. It was just before 5 pm so there was a link to the programme on the Radio 4 front page. This took me to http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jmv25 I then had to figure out that I had to click on the Case Notes link under "More Details" and this took me to http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006th1n There is a "Contact the programme team" link hidden in the bottom right corner which takes you to http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/case-notes/contact/ This is fair enough, except for the 255 character limit on comments. What is this, BBC Twitter?
If the programme hadn't been playing I would have had to go to the Radio 4 front page, then the Programmes link, then the C link, then the Case Notes link and then find the "Contact the programme team" link and then send the message.
I also can't find links to the Case Notes transcripts for past programmes, though a search shows that they're still there, at least up until the 17 February 2009 episode.
Can you get someone to fix this up please.
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I think there is another point which nobody has made yet about the photos. Personally, I appreciate, for instance, Alan Ackbourne enormously. But not for his looks. I can also listen to, for instance, the Archers. But what makes the radio - and a fortiori Radio 4 - special is that it depends on aural and not visual input. We all have our own image of the what the Archers look like or how the characters and settings in an Ackbourne play look, and that is an essential part of the radio experience. By thrusting those images at us as you are now doing, you are significantly altering the experience for the worse. We do not want - nor should you - radio to become a poor person's TV. The BBC has unique skills and advantages in this field which you are jeopardising. Please understand, and do not do this.
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@stevoia But wasn't it just fascinating to see Ayckbourn? I realised when I saw the pic that my mental image of the man was about thirty years out of date (and in black & white!). I also expected him to be a much more severe man - cornerstone of English letters and all that.
It was lovely to encounter this rather kindly-looking man, especially alongside his totally disarming contribution to With Great Pleasure. I think I must respectfully disagree!
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Isn't it time for a new blog ?
The new web site: two week's on etc.
How many more weeks does this have
to go on? I realise attrition is the name
of the game, but can we please please
have some simplicity back. I'm starting
to get carpal tunnel with all these
redundant mouse clicks taking me
nowhere useful. Who would have thought
I would seriously be longing for the old
Radio4 website.
Beat me with a stick will you.
All I wanted was to catch up with
the latest episode of MarK Steel's in
town, and no I don't want to see a
screen filling picture of him. I love
listening to him, but I don't particularly
want to look at him. That's what google
images are for.
So being completely from another planet
I go to the comedy page.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/genres/entertainmentandcomedy
Oh please make those url's longer, would
have to say programmes and genres are
completely redundant.
Anyway back to the comedy page, there
is not a mention of Mark Steel's show,
a comedy show that goes out every week
at the moment.
ANOTHER click on five more programmes
available now....
Not a chance sucker.. now more clicks
and typing as I have to search for it...
A premium comedy show that goes out
every week.. what are you thinking?
Please please please, can we
have the day and time back next to
the programmes broadcast. If I see
a show is going out midweek at 6:30pm
them I am inclined to listen.. knowing
it's prime time etc...
The majority of us come here to listen
again, so how about putting the listen
again link next to the mention of a show
rather than having to click numerous
times to the home page of the show.
Oh I found Mark Steel's latest show....
Availability:
Sorry, this programme is not available to listen again . Why?
Last broadcast Yesterday, 18:30 on BBC Radio 4.
And the poll is now over 540 votes..
with 90% + declaring they don't like the
new site.. how far do we have to go
before people take notice?
http://www.vizu.com/vot/Entertainment/BBC/RADIO4/RADIO/poll-vote.html?n=157092
This is so annoying.. I don't want to blog
about this rubbish.. I want to be listening
to great Radio4 programming, without
having to SEARCH for it. You delivered it
up nicely and simply before, with todays
tools this should be cake. Please please
please improve... this frustration is not
what I am looking for.
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Change it back to the old page...who do you think you ar changing the naviagtion? Facebook? LOL
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Dear Mr. Bowbrick,
The answer to your question is - no. Respectfully disagree if you like, but you are in a small minority here (see above, passim), so kindly do not abuse your position. I would like you also to understand that radio is a medium which does not want visualisation, and you are denaturing this unique medium now on the new provisional website.
Yours truly.
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Steve,
thanks for your continued input.
@161 adancy provided a link which will list all the output available on BBC Radio 4 to listen again:
http://www.iplayerconverter.co.uk/r/4/aod/default.aspx
@168 you commented that there was an alternative:
http://iplayerlist.mibly.com/
PLEASE look at your own link, because I have looked and under Drama, for example, I can see content from television, but I can not see content from BBC Radio 4.
I dont know what The Mission Statement of the BBC Radio 4 website is, but it must surely be to enable the listeners to *listen* to BBC Radio 4, either live or later at their convenience.
.For Live listening the tab at the head of the Home Page lists the current listening Schedule.
.For listening later, the tab called Programmes needs to list what is available to listen. It has two options, A-Z and Categorgies. A *third* option called ALL would solve so many of the issues raised.
best regards
nick
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@ouphrontis There's good news and there's bad news. I've been in touch with the iPlayer support group - very busy people since they provide iPlayer audio and video for all BBC web sites - and they report a technical problem.
The result is that the Mark Steel show cannot currently be played from within the Radio 4 web site but can be played from the iPlayer itself. Try here.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Steve,
Please see this post regarding listening again functionality (or lack thereof)
Also, please note that the main page (or at least the "on now" feature should be on auto-refresh, as it tends to go out-of-sync rather quickly.
Regards
ed
P.S. Hi Nick!
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Steve (185),
Same as for "What a Carve-up!"What a carve-up, indeed!
Keep radio radio!
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Hi @nikki noodle There's quite a lot of Radio 4 drama on this page, which shows all drama episodes from all networks available to play on iPlayer now (150 programmes). Is that the page you mean?
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Steve,
A fine page, if difficult to find any order...
did you notice iplayer is "down for maintenance"?
;-)
ed
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Hi Steve
@188 Thanks for that new link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/drama/player/episodes
I have seen that page, thanks, and it does have a lot of stuff on it, both to view and to listen - not just from Radio 4.
You have written before with useful links!
Please take a look at this one from me:
The page I want is this one:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/a-z/player
but there is NO link to it from any Radio 4 page. One has to type in the URL to get it (at least I do - I can't find it linked anywhere!).
My point at @184 was that a link to this page could be available from the Programme tab, as well as the a-z and categories. I would call it 'ALL'.
best wishes as before
nick
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/genres/drama/player/episodes
is a good link, but I still can't work out why Book of the Week isn't listed there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/a-z/player
Thanks Nick - a useful discovery!
Russ
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More clickable pictures?
It seems so, but still some way to go. They've all got "alt"s, but the "popular" programmes and podcasts pics are still not clickable...
Somebody may be listening, but when will the huge in-your-face main picture get some modesty, one wonders.
;-)
ed
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But "listen live" ain't working here and now.
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Mr Bowbrick,
A 'yes' or 'no' answer:
1) Will any of these complaints make you change the Radio 4 website back closer to how it was before?
2) IS this blog subject now simply a snag-list for the listeners who have been commissioning it for you?
Also, I too have difficulty finding Mark Steele's show as tried in vain to show it to a work-colleague who is Welsh and would have liked to have heard it.
Not sure whether he will give up trying to find it through your website. I nearly did.
I have in fact been looking at the radio 4 website more than usual...but onnly this blog page to see how many more people find it dumbed down and rather insulting to our intelligence.
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@3Dots I'm honestly quite happy to say that as editor of the blog I'm in no position to provide yes or no answers to your questions ('above my pay grade' as they say)!
Your comment raises some really interesting questions, though. For instance, how much notice of the blog should management take? Despite my best efforts, the blog is very young and its audience is still a tiny fraction of Radio 4's listenership so it's hard to argue that our input is representative. For Leigh Aspin and other senior people to start to make strategic changes on the basis of feedback here would probably be read as 'the tail wagging the dog' while we're not able to show that we're really capturing the full range of views.
And without wanting to get too philosophical about it, blogs weren't designed to deliver the kind of systematic feedback on new products that I think we probably need. We don't have any formal survey mechanics and comments are distributed across multiple blog posts. A statistician would laugh at the quality of our data. We can't profile users and we can't screen for multiple contributions.
Having said that, I'm obviously a blog advocate and I reckon that platforms like this will acquire features that permit more systematic feedback over time. The Radio 4 blog is already being used as a case study of how to interact with listeners here. We'll be taken more seriously with each successive issue dealt with.
And on your second question, the blog is evidently an outstanding source of snags. I've been feeding them through to the appropriate teams since the relaunch and a good handful of real problems have been fixed as a result. And Leigh Aspin's latest post announces a couple of fairly important changes that are the direct result of feedback here. I'm really pleased that we've been able to make this contribution. Remember, most site relaunches (at the BBC and elsewhere) are done without the benefit of a blog where users can get stuff off their chest. This is real progress!
And to finish, Mark Steel fell into a hole produced when the /programmes catalogue went wrong yesterday but has now been restored to the site. Listen here.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Steve,
One of the most important aspects of change management from the listeners point of view is acknowledging when things are for the better:
so a HUGE THANKYOU to you and the team for the link on the Home page to the totality of the BBC Radio 4 output -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/a-z
Keep up the good work!!
best regards
nick
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I'm finding it more time consuming and frustrating to get around the new site too. I know what I like to listen to so want to get to that quickly. Reading the comments here I appreciate that it makes sense to integrate programmes right across the BBC in one place. But, especially with radio, there will be a group of people who are mostly interested in one particular type of programming and so need to access that in a direct way.
As it is all database driven would it be possible to let that data feed a page for each station so that people could easily find what they want on simple text pages? Then programmes could be listed pretty much as they were before but could take the information from the data posted on the main site.
With so much information overload these days it's important to make information as simple as possible where possible.
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Steve,
If it was you who persuaded 'them' to restore the direct listen again button to the Archers/other popular progs on the bottom(ish) left of the screen, thank you very much!
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...though I can no longer find a link to the Archers webpage!
And the A-Z index looks great. Pity nothing happens when you click on any of the letters...
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THe new Radio 4 wesite is awful, especially the splash page. I've tried not to say this, but it's wretched. You have chosen which programme to his us in the eye with when I would guess that most of us know what we want to go to the website for, and it's not get the visual version of the trails that are plaguing radio like spots on a teenager.
It's brash and completely un-userfriendly.
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Hi Steve
Thank you for the comments on your post 195. With any new product there are often snags, so to be able to report them and have a link to the people who can fix them and understand their customers' frustrations is invaluable.
Is it worth setting up new threads, one specifically for snags and one for general feedback and comment?
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A quick second question... on the R4 homepage there isn't an obvious link to the blogs, unless you scroll down to the bottom right and click on the link under the quote. The link gives no clue as to the variety of blog discussions ongoing.
Given the blogs seem a valuable way to get customer comment and feedback and an increasingly important way to 'talk to R4', could the link be made more obvious?
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Is there anyone available to tell me difinitively why I remain unable to "listen again" to The Archers! None of last weeks were available - so frustrating and disappointing. I emailed but had no reply. I placed a blog without response. I emigrated 18 mths ago and would pay to receive BBC broadcasts. I can listen online live illustrating downloading is no problem. Will this issue be resolved soon or is this as good as it will get? I am sure that I am not alone in wanting to know.
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The Any Questions page for the programme on 17th April does not list the panelists. Can that be corrected please?
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Hi @Oldredhen. The Any Questions page for 17 April now shows panelists' names.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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I have to say I think the new layout is super, well done. I have always enjoyed listening to radio 4 (shipping forcast fan in particular) but the new web design and layout is interesting and encouragingly interactive.
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@MayorOfTrumpton I'm quite pleased with our link from the R4 home page at the moment but I'm campaigning quietly for a better link, preferably right up at the top, alongside 'Home Programmes Schedule Podcasts'!
I like your idea of a link that shows something of the variety of posts on the blog too. I'll think about that.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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@jubarb I'm going to start by directing you to the iPlayer help pages which are actually pretty useful. Here's a good page to start with and here's a list of topics that might help further. At the bottom of each page in the help site there's a link lablled 'contact us' which leads to a form. If you fill it in it will be read and dealt with by a company hired to do this by the BBC. I understand their service to be pretty good.
User @Hesiodos has also provided this link to the iPlayer message boards where you can discuss your problem with other users who may be having the same difficulty.
Do come back and let me know if any of this helps. I'm sure it will be of interest to other listeners, many of whom are also outside the UK. As you probably know, the service offered outside the UK differs from that offered to UK listeners.
Steve Bowbrick, editor, Radio 4 blog
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Notes on the "new look" blog layout
;-)
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Hi Steve
Many thanks for your reply 207. Good luck with your campaigning!
Also it took me a while to navigate down to the bottom of the page to find these threads again after the layout changes...for a while I thought the threads had been removed. I think I preferred it when the blogs were listed on the right hand side, it was much easier to see them all at a glance.
Cheers
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Depite the updated blog content saying:
"Archive: I concede that navigating to the archive isn't something we've got right yet. At the moment, we're linking back to pages from our old site for archive content, with current content available on our new pages, but we will bring our archive audio content into the same system in the near future. (This is part of the plan to enable our archive content to be 'tagged' and found by subject). In the meantime, archive content can be found by following the 'archive' links in the navigation at the top of programme pages."
there are still significant issues.
I posted on 13th April with a specific examples - and those problem continues.
Even knowing the old URL does not necessarily help ... for example:
The Food Programme archive was at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme.shtml
but this now redirects to the new-style programme page .. so no more access to the ancient content.
On 30th March the following content was available from the old page - to LISTEN to.
20090322 Restaurants and Recession
20090315 Cuba and urban gardening
20090308 Restaurants and Retail
20090301 Venison
20090222 Potatoes
20090215 Cheese
20090208 Sicilian Oranges Update
20090201 Mussels and other food
20090125 Pigs
20090118 Egon Ronay
Now you have an extensive list of episodes - going back to April 2007 - but only the shows from April have a working "Listen Again" link.
i.e. you have lost all of the old content links.
The crazy thing is that they are not that hard to generate ... I do it as a service for folks who are missing the content from BBC site
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Bring back the old BBC website!
The redesign is extremely poor; there is too much wasted space, too many photographs, too much clicking and scrolling to find the content that you are looking for. The redesign is in the wrong format with the page views being elongated portrait format whereas many users will now have moved to wide-screen monitors.
The old design was far easier to navigate and the content was greater yet more compact. I used to use the listen again facility to listen to programs on line. I rarely bother now as it just seems so mauch harder to find anything interesting to listen to - even if you know the programs. The site just seems so much more "Tabloid" in format and definitely "Dumbed Down".
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