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dontneedthegrief

Listed below are comments made by dontneedthegrief between Thursday, 29th October 2009 and Thursday, 29th October 2009.

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Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 6:33pm on 29 Oct 2009 Oh..and Boiler..at least I have quoted sources.

Where's your response to the original question?

To repeat it...please explain to us all,briefly, the exact differences between the old EU Constitutional Treaty and Lisbon.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 6:27pm on 29 Oct 2009 Boiler @224..

"what you quoted was more in keeping with the old (defunct) constitutional treaty, not the Lisbon treaty,"

Thanks,Boiler.

It is actually a summary of the Lisbon Treaty main points..NOT the 'old (defunct)' EU Constitution treaty.

So they ARE virtually the same then...very nicely scuppered your own argument there,old boy.

Source:Prof Anthony Coughlan.

No doubt you will now do a bit of Googling and come back to say he's a eurosceptic..all very predictable.

Yawn

Thanks for helping my point though..very kind of you.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 6:06pm on 29 Oct 2009 Unfortunately,one of the drawbacks of blogs like this is that it is difficult to have a real debate on issues that matter.

Take the subject matter today.

Some people loudly protest that the EU Constitution and Lisbon are entirely different beasts,and use that argument to justify the denial to a promised referendum.However,when challenged to explain the 'differences',those people often disappear into the ether,or simply ignore the question.

It's the anonymity of the web,I suppose...precisely suited to the kind of people that love to make unsubstantiated comments.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 4:10pm on 29 Oct 2009 gold caesar...re fox hunting

"Those people just couldn't get their heads round the fact that someone could be motivated by compassion, empathy or humanity, it all had to be a political conspiracy -"

Errrr...wasn't the fox hunting thing just that..political? If it wasn't,why is hunting with hounds flourishing,with little enforcment of the Law by the Police?
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 4:04pm on 29 Oct 2009 saga..

"no, the thing is I don't believe in putting questions directly to the public - only way I'd support that is for something like the design of a new coin, say, or what colour the Queen should wear for Ladies Day at Royal Ascot - fun stuff in other words

for important things, I'd be very nervous of going that route - the Lisbon Treaty for example, the public would vote "No" and that'd be the wrong answer "

Of course I could ask what right you have to say that a public 'NO' on Lisbon would be the wrong answer..that is,after all, only your opinion.But,hey,it's only democracy at work here..nothing important.

Or did you mean that the correct answer is to 'do an Ireland'?

Or I could say that referenda are only permissible for 'important' matters..not the Queens' Ascot hat.

But I won't.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 2:10pm on 29 Oct 2009 Saga..again.

"with the Lisbon Treaty, I'd rather our elected representatives took a pragmatic, informed decision on our behalf ... that's what they're there for after all, right? ... than have the question put to a Public who are ill equipped (and therefore unlikely) to do the same; it's an important decision and it's correspondingly important that we get it right"

The most telling expression in the above is 'our elected representatives' isn't it?

The great unwashed are unable to correctly judge such things,aren't they?

Perhaps you would put forward the proposal that we are equally ill equipped to decide upon who represents us? After all..it's an important decision and we've got to get it right..eh?
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 2:02pm on 29 Oct 2009 Don't you just love it when you hear things like...

"Interesting to read the comments of squirming Tories on the subject of Europe."

Of course the Tories are squirming..it's all their fault that the people were not granted the opportunity to cast their vote on Lisbon...as promised.

OK...yawn.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 12:55pm on 29 Oct 2009 Can't be bothered to wait for your response Boiler...

Here's a little help on Lisbon..

1. It establishes a legally new European Union in the constitutional form of a supranational European State.
2. It empowers this new European Union to act as a State vis-a-vis other States and its own citizens.
3. It makes us all citizens of this new European Union.
4. To hide the enormity of the change, the same name – European Union – will be kept while the Lisbon Treaty changes fundamentally the legal and constitutional nature of the Union.
5. It creates a Union Parliament for the Union's new citizens.
6. It creates a Cabinet Government of the new Union.
7. It creates a new Union political President.
8. It creates a civil rights code for the new Union's citizens.
9. It makes national Parliaments subordinate to the new Union.
10. It gives the new Union self-empowerment powers.

Now..does that scare you? Is this NOT a Constitution?

Has this Government lied to us?
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 12:42pm on 29 Oct 2009 Boiler @71..

OK..you've got the argument in that Lisbon is not the 'old' EU Constitution treaty.Well that's what this Government want you to believe,so they can continue to justify breaking their manifesto promise.

As you're such an expert,please tell us all,in brief terms,the exact differences between 'old' and Lisbon...and how Lisbon has such huge changes (constitutionally) that it justifies the broken promise.
Changing Britain's relationship with Europe 12:22pm on 29 Oct 2009 Saga @38..

Sorry,saga, but you haven't added much to your argument..

"If I understand correctly, Lisbon has to be ratified by all Member States, so a Czech rejection would kill it.

correct; but they're going to pass it"

Well,it may be unlikely,but not cast iron.

With all your posturing,you constantly ignore the fact that Cameron is not in power and cannot call a referendum.By the time he is (maybe) in power the whole Lisbon thing could be in different circumstances...right?

If the Czechs reject,it's dead.If they ratify, then the Tories develop a policy to take European wide ratification into account.

I can't see the point in them announcing now a 'what if' policy.

"if the Czech's reject it; but they won't, so a UK referendum would be anything but pointless ... it would give the British people (frightening thought, I know!) the ability to say "No" to the treaty and, de facto, "No" to Europe"

X'cuse me..isn't it the current Government that has not honoured its manifesto promise for a referendum? Isn't it the current Government that has virtually ratified Lisbon without asking the people? Isn't it a bit late,after we have ratified, to slate the Tories for not calling a referendum,when at present they can do no such thing?

And,no matter how many times you say it,a referendum on Lisbon would not be a 'NO' in totality to Europe

As to your comments about Mothers and sweets..very nice but frankly a bit fairy tale.

Don't think I missed anything actually,old son.

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