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Geldie

Listed below are comments made by Geldie between Tuesday, 6th May 2008 and Thursday, 8th May 2008.

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Women and technology 3:01pm on 08 May 2008 I agree with much of that but the issue is the status quo within the sciences and tech industries now. If you address a perceived bigger picture, assuming there is societal change and men and women become equally interested and motivated in science and technology, then you are addressing a predicted future. Surely you can only address the status quo and adjust accordingly. If science teaches us anything its that it is far better to intelligently approach a solution with learned adjustments and modifications, than to charge ahead with the probable future picture, or picture if social conditioning didn't exist and get a result that just causes more problems than it fixes.

I think you may very well be right about with respect to the proliferation of affordable high technology in our everyday lives and the availability of information. It can only lead to positive views of science and tech and with hope and a bit of luck lead to a bright future. Of course, then the problem comes that the net is just another means by which to bombard the same sort of media at kids. As great as things like wiki are, a quick look at the most viewed articles list does make for a dose of despair sometimes. I personally think the video blog side of youtube (when not being censored) and things like it, are a nice way of working on things like stereotyping and prejudice – what better way to dispel misconception than sit and listen to an opinion you may not very often come into contact with?

As for the issue of misunderstanding, I apologise for being a little aggressive there. Discussing some of these issues from a blokes point of view can be a bit of a mine field, so misinterpretation can totally discredit what is said, due to the suggestion of sexism. So I feel its important to address such misunderstandings.
Women and technology 10:54am on 08 May 2008 "That is why I am a little wary, Geldie, of following the argument lines of 'women have no interest in sciences, men know enough to be worth talking to.'

I'm not exactly sure how what I said became, "only men are worth talking to". Things like that are incredibly exasperating when you try and honestly discuss this type of issue. I said, in my day to day life, when discussing science and tech subjects with non scientists, that more men have a passing interest (not knowledge) than women - simply observation, no bias, no agenda. I passed no judgement of either men or women in this observation. I said nothing at all about ability to comprehend, because, there is no difference in ability, there are just people, some smart, some not and everyone else in between. If I said fewer men watched sex in the city than top gear, is that sexist? I’m sure I will now be told how many men do.

In fact, I’m more likely to watch shows aimed at women, I cook in my household, while my partner understands the TV/sky box completely and I don’t, she prefers action and comedy movies, I prefer more emotionally involved films, drama and documentaries. In my daily life traditional gender roles are frequently reversed but that doesn’t stop the overall trends, which are really occurring out there. I would love for more women to be interested in science and feel it is something they can actively pursue, show interest in and contribute to. It’s something I know a lot about and am passionate about, so engaging more women would be great. I agree the problem may very well be down to social conditioning and I have openly discussed here a desire to see this change, but I’m not saying, “Women aren’t interested so I have given up talking to them”. Please don’t jump to the conclusion that noticing a trend means I am dismissive or looking down on women – that is simply not the case.

"I suspect, at the end of the day, there probably is a slight discrepancy between the sexes in ability to understand/interest in science, spatial problems, logical thought and so on"

I don't believe there is a "slight discrepancy" in ability to understand at all. I think the apporach of the sexes is different and sometimes a certain problem may appeal to or be easier for a certain person, I don't think sex is as important as all the, "women think like this, men think like that" studies will have you believe - I think people are different. Interest however, I agree, there is a problem and I believe its perception of science and sterotyping that are the problem. Kids need to see science and tech as interesting, rewarding and a valuable contribution to society, not as a boring existence studying things that don't matter, perpetuated by "geeks".

Perhaps the media should stop pumping footballers and glamour models at them. Perhaps TV shows that celebrate materialism should be frowned upon. Sadly, I worry we are too far gone as there is simply too much money to be made from all those negative things. Why should any kid want to be a scientist if you can show your body and get rich or spend all day playing sport and do the same.
Women and technology 12:00pm on 07 May 2008 Skittledog - I agree, I think if role models were to be made higher profile in out reach at unis and schools what you suggest is the way it should be done. Its the best way to give across the idea of a successful, equal and productive working environment.

On the subject of maths and the "hard" subjects, I agree with you both. There seems this disconnect with being able to do it. Maths is mentioned and the brain stops functioning at the total mental block of, "I can't possibly do this". I think its a failing of the school system to present kids information and harder subjects in a way that makes sense to them. Giving kids a text book and teaching it parrot fashion is no good at all. If you know what interests the kids you can pitch hard subjects on their terms, I feel. It was by those means I learnt maths, I was taught it as a tool of science, which I was interested in.

Its true that in some instances terms such as geek aren't too negative to bare (in my opinion everyone is a geek about something and can bore the hell out of someone with thier particular geekdom). From my example though, the worry is when you have the more negative situations as suggested in child care for men for example. There are some very worrying attitudes and terms bandied about in that particular example.

"I'm not sure, but I feel that's the way that societal change in perceptions is most likely to be achieved - appealing to the inner justice in everyone that respects true worth and capability in everyone when it is shown with no condescending 'message' attached."

100% agree and it feels, if you look around at the more forward looking organisations that promote that enviroment, they are doing very well. Hopefully, the old boy network is slowly but surely being eroded.
Women and technology 11:09am on 07 May 2008 "Girls "aren't interested in technology", yes, when men start talking absolute rubbish about cars that they know so little about, they may turn off. The idea of sitting at a PC all day coding may turn some girls off. They are interested in it's effects however..."

You see thats quite patronising in itself. When I mentioned women switching off with respect to physical sciences and tech, I wasn't, "talking absolute rubbish about cars"...thank you for that, it was a lovely example of the sort of comment that if spoken by a man, would be seen as sexist and dismissive. My point, infact, was when discussing real issues that will prfoundly affect our world and its understanding (the big picture) i.e. physics, maths, astronomy, chemistry, materials, engineering etc, many women simply aren't interested and that is my experience day to day, refute it if you like but that is my experience. Dicuss the same topics with men, more will at least have a passing interest - why is it so unacceptable to say that when its clearly a common thing?

The point then, is clearly if proportionally less women are interested in the sciences and tech world, assuring 50% of science and tech employees are women seems rather unfair. Combat issues of sexism in the work place and have people purely employed on merit, not qouta or sex. That is, if anything else, the clearly logical and fair way.
Women and technology 08:25am on 07 May 2008 "So the question would be how to reach the correct ratio without being unfair to well-qualified men, or causing yet further resentment in other ways?"

I suppose the correct ratio is hard to define but I know what you mean. I think obviously, stories like this serve to some extent to begin to open this kind of thing up, so that’s a good start as you mention. It may perhaps be beneficial for the odd report or article to focus on the positives within these environments for women instead of the problems. All too often the most watchable or readable content (manufacturing consent?) is that which reinforces the negative views and ultimately results in young women with the feeling that nothing has changed and its not worth the bother. The message that there are still problems but its really getting better and women can certainly make a career in these traditional male roles that is both fulfilling and worth pursuing, would be good to see represented now and then.

I suppose when female role models in the sciences do crop up not many people notice, for example, the Christmas lectures form the Royal Institution have often been given by eminent female scientists and in fact, the Royal Institution itself is lead by Baroness Greenfield.

If there is a problem associated with the visibility of female role models and the perception of young women about the prospects in tech related industries, then perhaps outreach schemes from universities and business of successful female technology and science professionals would begin to address the problem of perception. In addition, schemes of this nature would have even more weight if both male and female professionals points of view were represented, such that not only the womens perception of the work place is put forward but also the perception of the men that work with you. In those circumstances you can imagine people not only perceiving a successful female in a traditionally male role but also that the men working along side you aren’t all that bad and both respect and value female colleagues.

Ultimately, that is of course a drop in the ocean but if people wish to address the problem directly and change the lot of young people in this country, mentoring and outreach could have a part to play. However, I feel the bigger problem really comes with stereotyping and general societal perception. Just recently we see TV programs suggesting that a large proportion of girls wilfully desire to become glamour models – something I find mind boggling. We clearly have a problem if this is true and I suppose its a chicken and egg situation: Is this the result of the perceived difficulty of women to be taken seriously and succeed in the professional world or the seemingly better prospects seen as a result of the celebrity culture. Perhaps a bit of both but clearly the young people in the UK have a misaligned sense of both what is possible and the personal satisfaction that may come from making a real contribution to something.

It might well be silly idealism but I feel changing the perception of the general public of science and technology and the people who work in it, would go a long way towards addressing this situation. Perhaps if we dropped stereotypes like geek and tomboy and viewed people crossing the traditional gender role barrier with a little more compassion, it might be easier to do it. A prime example would be the sort of treatment a man would receive in attempting to pursue work as a nanny or nursery worker. Additionally, if we fostered a work environment where people actually support and stand up for each other, instead of everyone feeling besieged and watching there own back, then instances of bullying, sexism and discrimination might begin to be dealt with and become far less of a problem.

I guess my overall point is I don’t profess to have all the answers but perception does seem to pervade this debate; mens perception of women in the work place, womens perception of how men view and treat them in the work place, societies perception of the challenges when crossing the traditional gender roles and the overall perception of the sciences and technology fields in the general public.

What are the factors women feel are stopping young women in particular and how do you feel the issue could be addressed?
Women and technology 9:29pm on 06 May 2008 "I agree that men are under-represented in traditionally 'female' roles, but I don't see why one inequality is a reason to ignore another".

But thats the point many here are making. If the inequalities associated with women are tackled, have focus groups and reports directed at them, it seems a worrying trend that the inequalities for men are being ignored.

"There are plenty of women (indeed, most of my friends, surprisingly enough) who are very competent at science/tech and enjoy the challenges it presents. Please don't suggest we'd all be happier working in the make-up industry..."

I hope that’s not the opinion I gave, it certainly wasn't my intention. Perhaps my situation is a little different in that I speak from a physical sciences background, where, in my experience, women often haven't shown the level of interest the men have within both the educational stages and work (and there is certainly something to said of the perceived "mans world" affect putting women off). However, that is changing in my field and routinely more women professionals are attending conferences and really making their mark in the field. There is a good spread of women (i.e. perhaps 30-40% of the higher level staff) with my organisation many with very impressive credentials and research portfolios, so it is happening. Apart from anything else, lest we forget Marie Curie and Rosalind Franklin as examples particularly from the physical sciences, as to the contribution women have made - in both these particular cases making monumental contributions and sacrificing their lives for science (yes, I know Rosalind Franklin got a rough deal in it all and shamefully was not awarded the Nobel prize).

However, my comments are more from perspective, perhaps selfishly, of a man increasingly feeling that there is not an equal focus in these matters. Certainly their is more to be done to make sure the contributions of women are felt and seen more readily in the technology and science areas and that opportunities are there for both sexes equally. However, there are so rarely focus groups or reports about the roles of men in society, the areas where men face inequalities (yes, there are many for us too!). These kinds of reports feel like a plaster over a wound instead of facing the real challenges of changing perception of both sexes in the work place and society as a whole. I just don't think arbitrarily skewing the numbers with focused-drives, faced at one sex really addresses that problem at all. Perhaps all this comes down to the media and its affect on perception of the sexes.

If people really want to change the situation for women in male dominated roles, then the powers that be within companies and organisations need to start to take far more seriously cases of harassment/unfair treatment and make examples of higher managers that are found to be guilty of it. For example, a female colleague of mine recently had course to complain about a male colleague making her job unesscarliy difficult (more people than her had the same problem, men too). When she spoke to the superior (older male) she was told, “Why don’t you use your feminine charms to get around him”…With not a single exception, the younger male staff were appalled at this, more so than many of the women. That she didn’t feel, with that response and support, that she could take it further is the real issue here. Perhaps tackling this kind of thing would really change the lot of women in high tech jobs and hence interest, study, recruitment and retention would increase. What I don’t think works are focus groups having women only recruiting drives and women only training courses – those situations are just as discriminatory and create resentment.

And just for the record, as a man working in the physical sciences, I would welcome with open arms a more diverse environment for more institutions and companies. The difference in approaches to complex problems when both sexes combine efforts, is, undisputedly, very beneficial to the contribution to knowledge – in my experiences both sexes bring unique insight, but that’s the point, we aren’t the same. All I want is for my colleagues to be there on merit not because there was a quota related recruitment drive; surely none of the women here would want to be recruited under such circumstances?
Women and technology 4:40pm on 06 May 2008 I work in science and am associated with various other high tech disciplines as a result. One of the major reasons there aren't that many women with in the areas I work, are that they simply find the subject areas a turn off. If, for example, I attempt to discuss the implications of what I do, some of which are far reaching and potentially revolutionary, the majority of women immediately hit snooze and switch off. The women I do know working in these areas are capable of gaining respect and any career they choose on the basis of merit and working to a better level than their peer group - i.e. as is the case for men. There are of course, issues of discrimination often associated with the older males within the work environment but such instances are viewed very poorly by the younger males with whom I work.

My biggest worry is what happens if we artificially reduce the numbers of men working in these areas in the name of quotas? Where do these men go? Are we going to change social attitudes such that more men are seen as safe to work in child care, for example? Are men going to be taken more seriously in nursing, midwifery, the care industry? Are the inequalities that exist for men venturing into traditionally female roles going to be actively eroded?

It seems to be more complex than arbitrarily to worry only about women in technology. For women who clearly want and are interested in these areas there absolutely should be efforts made to make this possible. However, shifting recruitment for jobs or university places in the favour of women is neither fair nor the answer. All should succeed on merit alone, in a system that all must work to make less prejudice and less difficult for women. We must also be sure to ascertain that the perceived inequalities and prejudices are indeed that and not merely the same exact trials and struggles faced by anyone attempting to have a very successful career.

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