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AndyPlowright

Listed below are comments made by AndyPlowright between Friday, 6th November 2009 and Monday, 23rd November 2009.

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Resourceful Colly reaches landmark 3:07pm on 23 Nov 2009 One thing with Collingwood is that his success didn't coincide with England being anywhere at their strongest in the batting department. I consider the England side that went to South Africa in 2004-05 to be our best batting side as you had several players close to their peak. Strauss, Trescothick, Vaughan, and Flintoff were all performing at a high level in that top six, and Thorpe continued to demonstrate his class.

Now compare that line up to some of the sides Collingwood has played in post-2005 Ashes. Strauss went through a colossal drop in form. Trescothick left international cricket. Thorpe retired before the Ashes. Vaughan suffered many injuries and never fully reached the level he had been at. Flintoff has injuries and a downturn in runs. Bell and Cook have been inconsistent. It's not just batting. The loss of senior players such as Giles affected the side. The change from Fletcher to Moores to Flower affected the side. A stream of captaincy changes affected the side. The one real constant in all of these changes has been Collingwood in the team. I have a feeling he's been the guy to accept a lot of leadership responsibility at a times when leaders, be they captains or coaches, have been at loggerheads with others connected with England. Collingwood's success has come over a time when England haven't been a strong unit on the pitch or in the dressing room. Most people accept that it's easier to come into a winning side and be successful. To be successful in a side beset by injuries and internal politics is even more impressive.
Resourceful Colly reaches landmark 12:06pm on 23 Nov 2009
I can't see how anyone can point to Collingwood being an underachiever. The limitations of his technique are bolstered by strength of mind. His fielding is still second to none in England colours. The surprise has been his bowling in recent times. There was a period where he seemed reluctant to bowl and had a few injury issues lurking over him. Now he's close to being a legitimate first change option in ODI cricket.
Resourceful Colly reaches landmark 10:01pm on 22 Nov 2009 Collingwood is one of my favourite players. The guy has bottle, something we haven't seen much of in many England players. If Ian Bell had half of Collie's mental strength, Bell would be averaging mid 50's for England.

Much is made of his peaks and troughs. One thing that is very easy to overlook is the amount of cricket he has played. How many England players play in all three formats? Go further from there: how many England players play in all three formats as regularly as he does? Add in the points in his career when he has been captain and it's easy to see that he doesn't shirk responsibility. It's been pretty obvious that he has played for England at times when he is mentally exhausted. Seeing Michael Hussey over the last 18 months has been similar and he is another like Collingwood who played all three formats of the game and wore himself out. I don't think Collie's technique is that bad. He's very much a player who relies on his eye rather than an impeccable technique, and the flaws creep in when mental fatigue affect that hand-eye co-ordination.

I don't think Bell will be ahead of Collingwood in the Test series. Cook's injury gives us a chance to see Trott up the top of the order, and I suspect his showing today and throughout the tour so far means he will bat at 3. Pietersen will slot in at 4, leaving Collie and Prior to form what I think is a very useful duo at 5 and 6.
The rise of the English South Africans 8:11pm on 06 Nov 2009 Motty:

Let's go back to your original statement then.

"It would appear that a GCSE in logic might have been more useful than Ancient Greek. Normal jobs have applicants from the entire workforce. International sportsmen/women are selected from a narrow pool of talented people who meet eligibility criteria. Apart from "overseas" and "professional", your comparison makes no sense."

Normal jobs can only be filled by a person who is legally allowed to work in this country. Correct?

Jobs like the Army, RAF, local government, teaching, nursing, with specific eligibility criteria don't count in your world as 'conventional jobs'. Correct?

I'm not saying the eligibility criteria to be a nurse is the same as the eligibility criteria to be an England cricketer. The point is that both professions have specific eligibility criteria. Is that not right?
The rise of the English South Africans 7:05pm on 06 Nov 2009 Motty:

Conventional jobs require ability and a visa and the need to meet eligibility for the specific job position in question. For example, you need to demonstrate more than ability and a visa to become an RAF pilot. There is specific criteria revolving aorund colour blindness for instance. To me, that criteria is as specific to that position as the ICC criteria is to be eligible for an international cricket team.

You're right. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp :) Now you can tell me what you define as a 'conventional job'.

Remo:

I'm not directing this at you, for your views have at least been well reasoned, but it seems there's an awful lot of insular Brits out there determined to blame Johnny Foreigner for everything. If we were back in the early 90s, I'm sure a blog entitled 'The rise of the English West Indians' would have gotten much the same reaction from the 'They're taking over/they're not one of us' crowd.

Unions striking, immigrant debates, dreadful synth music, Bon Jovi coming back, chicks in leggings everywhere, recession, an imminent Tory election victory... it's like the 80s revival has come full circle. You wondered what KP thought of this country when he came here. I don't think my words for what I think about my country right now are vaguely printable. I don't like the way immigrants are given this kind of focus. They haven't been the ones to damage this country.
The rise of the English South Africans 5:53pm on 06 Nov 2009 Motty:

That was the point I was making! Did you read my earlier post at all? The point I was making was that there are no differences between playing for England and a conventional job in terms of fulfilling specific criteria. Grrr! :D

OK, let's take a sporting contest between a nation. What in your eyes constitutes a nation? All who live there or all who were born there?

Most European sides would be in the same boat as England due to various complex legal issues regarding migration. The Dutch have Dirk Nannes playing for them. Roland Lefebvre and Andre Van Troost could play for Holland and Somerset with no words being uttered. England as a cricket team have not become diluted. Instead, it's actually reflected the changes that have occurred within Europe and further afield. What country outside of Europe has had to contend with anything like the Bosman and Kolpak regulations?

As much as people would characterise England as being behind the times, in terms of the shifting demographic of its sporting teams, it's actually ahead of the game. In time, you'll have a lot more national sides like that. As someone else pointed out, look at the Australian football team for multi-nationality play. Take Rhys Williams for Middlesborough: Indian mother, English father, plays for Australia at football having played for Wales at U-21 level. Football has led the way, cricket and rugby have followed, and it'll all keep on going.
The rise of the English South Africans 5:18pm on 06 Nov 2009 Anthony1979:

I only laugh because accents don't mean anything to me now. I was married to a Canadian born in Uruguay whose first language was Spanish. She in turn was married to me, a Portsmouth-born bloke who sounds like a public school lavatory seat warmer but was educated in a rubbish comprehensive in Wiltshire. Accents don't mean nuffink nomore (sic). Just listen to 'Lord Sugar' the other day talking about how he's sick of the recession. Ha!

The U-19 thing could be really hard to enforce from a legal standpoint. Remember in football how players don't sign professional contracts until 18? I suspect tying a player in with a specific country at an age before they can become professional might be a dodgy thing from a legal standpoint. I'm not sure entirely but I think somethign along those lines might apply.

The public school bias has always been there in cricket. Playing for a poor county like Wiltshire made it all the more satisfying to beat the public schoolboy-rich counties!
The rise of the English South Africans 4:54pm on 06 Nov 2009 Anthony1979:

I don't get why such an arbitrary factor as educational background should be used to determine 'Britishness'. Would it make a difference if it were a public school education or a comprehensive? What about university education? It's so random as to be utterly meaningless when someone says 'Ahhh, but Hussain was educated here so that's fine in his case'

I don't think you should have to play for the same country you played for at U-15 level. I suspect U-19 would also be considered impossible to enforce as you've got the whole 'You become properly adult at 18 when you vote' element to consider. It could be a legal landmine, to say the least.

I giggled at your comments about Symonds sounding Australian and being born in Brum. When I lived in Toronto, most people meeting me for the first time asked if I were Australian. The Canucks have a pretty weird idea of what an Aussie accent sounds like!
The rise of the English South Africans 4:47pm on 06 Nov 2009 Motty:

What is international sport for though? The Olympics I something I personally hate because it's a sporting event taken over by politicians for their own benefit (see Beijing and see some of the reports over the London plans, particularly involving Barking and the shooting. Massive political interference there purely for political gain).

You will get cases where a player feels like they're playing for 'the second best team'. I accept that. However, in Pietersen and Trott we've seen two men go out, perform under pressure against the world's best, and show something special. Do you think Trott gave any less effort at the Oval this year than if he'd been playing for South Africa? Not a chance.

I say that international sport is changing. The IPL within cricket changes the notion of supporting 'your team'. When you see Indians playing Indians or Aussies taking on Warne, it throws the old allegiances right up the spout. We shouldn't fear change. Nobody wants to see rubbish brought into the England team (sorry Mr Pattinson, you're going down in history as one of the great one-Test wonders). If county players and county teams object to the number of 'foreign imports', then it's up to those county players and coaches to improve and to keep hammering on the door for international recognition.
The rise of the English South Africans 4:35pm on 06 Nov 2009 94: Eddieonthewing:

Top post, sir. I couldn't agree more. This notion of 'what is being British' is something politicians can't decide upon, sociologists can't decide on, and evidently BBC cricket blog posters can't decide on. Instead, there's this semi-romantic idea of what being British is, that ends up getting shot down by examples of 'British' people who lived overseas, were born overseas, etc etc. I wonder if the anti-Trott people on this thread are staunch Royalists or know anything of the House of Hanover...

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