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Tolkny

Listed below are comments made by Tolkny between Tuesday, 17th March 2009 and Wednesday, 12th August 2009.

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What did you think of the show? Guest: Cherie Lunghi 11:36pm on 12 Aug 2009 I have had a considered response to my comment but still await an explanation for the removal of comment two at the time it was removed.

I shall post the response here and my reply.

He said

"You raise three main issues, the first being 'who was and who was not a Soham murderer.' It's clear on reviewing the tape that lawyer Mark Stephens intended to refer to 'the Soham murders' - which is what he was commonly taken to be referring to - and tripped over his words. It is a matter of public record that in relation to the murders of the two girls Maxine Carr was solely found guilty of lying to protect her boyfriend Ian Huntley.

The two counts of perverting the course of justice are indeed quite distinct from murder, but I don't think Mark Stephens' slip confused matters in viewers minds. The woman who used to be known by that name was charged, convicted and later freed under an indefinite order protecting her identity. In so far as the slip related to anyone it was to somebody who doesn't in legal and practical terms any longer exist.

On your second point, the wider issue of Mr. Stephens' suitablity, you're of course entitled to your opinion that he wasn't appropriate and that a young persons specialist lawyer might have been more so. I don't share that view. The item was very firmly introduced and entirely based on the media issue of the anonymity of the trio in the Baby P case, and about their predicted demonising in next day's papers, which duly happened. As a prominent legal commentator on all aspects of media law, Mark Stephens was a highly relevant and properly qualified spokesman and solicitor.

As to your third point, that Mr Stephens was wrong in saying why anonymity is granted, while there was no attempt to be definitive in his answers, he spoke in the film about the dangers to those who'd committed crimes in relation to young children as being one reason for identity protection, and concerns for innocent members of guilty individuals' families as being another. We didn't go into the additional 'sub judice' factors governing fair trial considerations in the Baby P case, or into the potential for redemption, post-custody, in the the cases of the killers of Jamie Bulger. But Mr. Stephens' comments were in general right, as far as they went.

I hope this reassures you that we gave a good deal more thought to the story than you might have considered. The whole thrust of the piece was to pre-empt the tabloid 'monstering' of the individuals involved and to question whether that process helped or hindered the need to better prevent such appalling crimes. Thanks nonetheless for troubling to raise the issue with us"

I said,

"Ok, I did not take the impression of "not monstering" that you say you intended.

I do not know the detail of the case in question, but do know the principal is to protect young people not to protect adult offenders and do not think that was strongly enough stated, which is why I thought the media angle was the wrong one, although clearly the media angle is relevant as it is the media which transmits the information concerned, invariably as salaciously as possible to sustain public interest and sales, rather than to inform and edify which is I believe what the BBC angle should be.

I am now a retired Criminal Justice Practitioner, not a lawyer, and accept that Society's monsterisation of offending, as you neatly put it is to the fore, which is I believe in everyone's worst interest because we are comforted by avoiding the possibility that maybe if we were in a similar position as a perpetrator of some disgusting crime or practice, we would be much different, from those from whom we want to dissociate. Likewise the actual people who led the Jews and Gypsies into the Gas chambers were in fact ordinary people corrupted by the circumstance of the situation, as has been shown in various Social Science experiments where people are tricked into believing they are inflicting punishment.

Nonetheless, I thank you for your consideration."
What did you think of the show? Guest: Cherie Lunghi 10:17am on 12 Aug 2009
# 131. At 09:49am on 12 Aug 2009, you wrote:

This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.

that was predictable, this time I hope the explanation will be forthcoming as it has yet to be for comment two which was removed and has since been replaced, so presumably it is after all within the "House Rules"

"2. At 7:12pm on 10 Aug 2009, you wrote:

Maxine Carr is not a murderer as your lawyer implied. Correct that before you go off air or interupt the next programme.

He was also wrong in saying why anonymity is granted.

Get a Criminal Lawyer who specializes in Young People not a media lawyer and get that right in the next programme and sack the bloke you had on today.

Appalling."
What did you think of the show? Guest: Cherie Lunghi 09:49am on 12 Aug 2009 Thank you for replacing Comment number two, but why have I not been told what was the substance of the complaint and why was it removed during the very period of time people were reading the comments about Monday's show.

I am grateful for an email response from a BBC person who says he will tell me more today, I am looking forward to it.

Comment 2

"2. At 7:12pm on 10 Aug 2009, you wrote:

Maxine Carr is not a murderer as your lawyer implied. Correct that before you go off air or interrupt the next programme.

He was also wrong in saying why anonymity is granted.

Get a Criminal Lawyer who specializes in Young People not a media lawyer and get that right in the next programme and sack the bloke you had on today.

Appalling."

Comment 74"74. At 8:51pm on 10 Aug 2009, you wrote:

Comment 2 was only made here because I was unable to quickly see to where I could send an email about the inaccuracy of your lawyer's comments.

I hope I get a prompt explanation about the referral and you urgently correct the matter about who was and who was not a Soham murder.

Also you need to give the public accurate information about anonymisation of child offenders and victims.

Additionally as advertising is not permitted on the BBC the comment from The Sun reporter should not have been made in front of an advert for the newspaper.

Unless there is a correction about all these three points I shall consider referring them to my MP who is chair of The House of Commons Select Committee on Culture Media and Sport. I suggest him as a guest to explain the role of his committee as far as TV watchers are concerned.

If this is also referred to a moderator, like my previous comment number two, please do me the courtesy of simultaneously emailing me with the points that are causing concern."

Email from Programme Editor"

Doug Carnegie wrote:
>
> Dear XXXXX,
>
> Thanks for your comments - I will respond to them personally tomorrow.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Doug Carnegie
> Editor The One Show
>
[Personal details removed by Moderator]

My reply

"Greetings and thanks in reply,

I very rarely watch the programme but hope to get confirmation of some "on air" clarification.

Also, you need to sort our your commissioning of experts, clearly that lawyer gave false information.

As you described him, I think as a media lawyer I presume he is a member of either The Law Society or The Bar Council and so I suppose I shall need to refer his errors to them.

Please advise is he a barrister or solicitor and what was his name, or will you give an undertaking only to use properly qualified people as "expert" lawyers in future, please?

Regards"
What did you think of the show? Guest: Cherie Lunghi 8:51pm on 10 Aug 2009 Comment 2 was only made here because I was unable to quickly see to where I could send an email about the inaccuracy of your lawyer's comments.

I hope I get a prompt explanation about the referral and you urgently correct the matter about who was and who was not a Soham murder.

Also you need to give the public accurate information about anonymisation of child offenders and victims.

Additionally as advertising is not permitted on the BBC the comment from The Sun reporter should not have been made in front of an advert for the newspaper.

Unless there is a correction about all these three points I shall consider referring them to my MP who is chair of The House of Commons Select Committee on Culture Media and Sport. I suggest him as a guest to explain the role of his committee as far as TV watchers are concerned.

If this is also referred to a moderator, like my previous comment number two, please do me the courtesy of simultaneously emailing me with the points that are causing concern.
What did you think of the show? Guest: Cherie Lunghi 7:12pm on 10 Aug 2009 Maxine Carr is not a murderer as your lawyer implied. Correct that before you go off air or interupt the next programme.

He was also wrong in saying why anonymity is granted.

Get a Criminal Lawyer who specializes in Young People not a media lawyer and get that right in the next programme and sack the bloke you had on today.

Appalling.
Trusting social workers 9:05pm on 06 May 2009 Back in the early 80s, just as we were finishing our social work training, our sociology lecturer said "You are now the soft police (message 35)

Such power goes back to the dawn of statutory social work, certainly as early as the 1933 C&YP Act and probably also pre-dating the 1959 MH Act.

I am afraid my knowledge of detailed powers of Social Workers does not go back earlier.

When I trained in the seventies I realised SWs had significantly more power than a Probation Officer which I became, but all social workers have their decisions endorsed by either courts or quasi judicial boards such as Mental Health Act Commissioners, and it was ever thus, yet the Media frequently blames the Social Workers for their court recommendations rather than the Court for their decisions, when something goes wrong, as inevitably things will go wrong. What is amazing is that in the culture within Social Work, certainly since the Tories in the eighties, tried to clear out the Children's Homes for financial expediency, during a period ever greater demands were put on SWs with ever more limited resources, that there has been so comparatively few absolute disasters.
Trusting social workers 8:52pm on 06 May 2009 Pre Moderation for someone who has been posting on other BBC message boards for years without problem is an insult, and a sign of the sort of mistrust that Social Workers experience. Trained and experienced but not trusted.

Social Workers have also been paid far below the level that their training and experience merits so many of the brightest and the best place personal and family needs first and leave to undertake better rewarded and less stressful work, where the decisions taken rarely affect life and liberty.
Trusting social workers 8:47pm on 06 May 2009 Trust the individual workers more but ensure proper supervision and no target driven management.

Provide Social Workers with skilled support staff so they can use their skills with people instead of struggle with computers.

Provide sufficient resources and services so they can provide support and oversight to clients, rather than spend large amounts of time rationing services and negotiating to get services that are desperately needed for more clients than those at the tip of the iceberg.

CQSW holder, Awarded University of Liverpool, Dept of Extra Mural Studies, 1975.
Suggest a story 09:42am on 17 Mar 2009 My post at 9.40 am appears immediately whereas the one at 9.36 is still queued for moderation.

Whoops, it seems as if left and right hands are on back to front, maybe?
Suggest a story 09:40am on 17 Mar 2009 How long does it take to become not "a new member"

Why doesn't membership of other BBC Messageboards, which presumably signifies appropriate postings, justify immediate "membership" here?

Do not the different parts of the BBC's Messageboards trust each other?

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