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riverbank

Listed below are comments made by riverbank between Wednesday, 26th November 2008 and Sunday, 18th October 2009.

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New 8.30pm start time announced (for Fri 30th October onwards) 8:05pm on 18 Oct 2009 Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! I am SO happy that the programme's been moved forward, and I can watch at least part of the live show with my kids now. Brilliant. You've made a middle-aged mum very happy.
Points Of View Message Board 3: Football or Rugby? 3:35pm on 18 Dec 2008 Excellent post, Whisky.
Points Of View Message Board 3: Football or Rugby? 3:32pm on 18 Dec 2008 Well said, gizmomoo.

"I do understand that POV people like the sense of community on the boards. But if you're just talking to each other - well why does the BBC have to provide a space for you to do it?"

- Because it's BBC-centred discussion, Nick, between BBC fans and viewers. I could go join another forum, but I want to talk about the BBC, and have figures from the BBC occasionally popping up and giving us their input (and they do, you know).
Points Of View Message Board 3: Football or Rugby? 2:39pm on 18 Dec 2008 OK. Rolls sleeves up.

To take your points in order:

- BBC executives may indeed not want, as you say, to come onto one of their own messageboards. I'd say that's an opportunity missed, but their choice. However, the main functions of the messageboards are to provide feedback which can be read by the BBC whenever's convenient, and also to allow discussion of programmes between viewers. So if execs choose not to participate in actual chat, I can't see that devalues the boards in any way. They might well still be taking note and responding, through decisions taken later.

Argy bargy - it cuts both ways, you know, Nick. Three months ago I had a host accuse me publicly of something I didn't do, and then fail to offer any sort of apology after I'd explained the mix-up. I just had to shrug and move on. In any community, there'll be disagreements and clashes. You're in a position to remove any post you think is abusive (and ultimately remove posters, too): it happens all the time.

"so far on the POV boards the amount of time I've spent deleting off topic threads has outweighed the times I think I've started a useful conversation."

- How much time have you spent on the POV forum, Nick? It's looking pretty on-topic to me, especially now we have Rowan the Host around. A much-appreciated presence!

"I spend less time"

- Well, yes, but that's kind of self-evident, isn't it? Obviously it's much easier running a blog than a five-tier forum. But (unless I'm missing something) that shouldn't be the overriding factor here. It's easier for me to go down the supermarket than to support local business and farm shops. It's easier for me to chuck my litter on the floor than stick it in the bin. Just because something takes more effort isn't at all to its discredit. Often, rather the reverse.

"At least on a blog you get a name, an up to date job title and a photograph"

- Well, yes, but that doesn't guarantee you any sort of a response, Nick!!! As for your points 2 and 3, blogs which complement message boards sound fine, but they're no replacement for them, as we've discussed elswhere.

"One of the questions I am asking is "what are the Points of View boards supposed to do?""

- I think this might be the third time I've answered this, but I'm happy to pile in again. The POV board provides a BBC-centred *community*, which no blog could ever hope to emulate. Every other mainstream channel has forums where its programmes can be discussed, ideas exchanged and information shared between fans. If the BBC got rid of theirs, it would look (and this is the very best complexion I can put on it) as though they were frightened of criticism or had no respect for their viewers. So many organizations now have forums where interested parties and meet and swap news. If the BBC disbanded theirs it would be a retrograde step, and out of line with general trends.
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 12:53pm on 30 Nov 2008 "riverbank - I can reassure you that I have read all your comments"

- Thanks for the reassurance. But can you see why, for me, the blog system isn't working? I see you reply to other posters and not me, and I don't know what to think (other than blogs don't work for a big general discussion).
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 12:29pm on 30 Nov 2008 Nick asks: "For example, where are the best places for BBC employees to talk to/with licence fee payers online?"

From a licence fee payer's point of view, I'd observe from this blog that this format isn't you talking to me, Nick. I'm talking to you, but I have no idea whether you're even reading my posts as you haven't acknowledged any of them at all (even though I've asked at least one direct question).

Now you might reasonably say to me, 'There are just too many people putting responses here for me to deal with' - in which case I think that rather proves the blog format isn't working for this type of discussion. (When people post responses on my blog, I always reply to each one, but then I don't get the numbers you get!)

Or you might say to me, 'I did respond', in which case I'll apologise and look to wherever you point, but I haven't been able to see a response, for all my frantic scrolling up and down.

It's disconcerting when you make a comment and the person asking for it acts as though you never spoke. So for that reason alone, Nick, I'm deeply unhappy with 'blog discussion' (almost an oxymoron, imo). This very post and the replies below it demonstrate the shortfalls of blogs more than any essay on the subject.
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 2:19pm on 28 Nov 2008 "If they are simply for people to chat about whatever they like, there are plenty of places online for that.

Nick Reynolds (editor, BBC Internet blog).

- With respect, Nick, I think you're being disingenuous. Lots of people have told you on this blog that PoV is far more than that, and gone on to explain the various functions of the forum. (I'd add a thumbs-up smiley if there was one, to soften the apparently po-faced tone.)
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 2:32pm on 27 Nov 2008 Nick, to address your questions:

What are the boards supposed to do?
- I would say, provide feedback on BBC programmes and associated issues, through community discussion.

Are they doing it sucessfully?
- Given the lack of leadership lately, I'd say they were doing it extremely well. Off-topic posts can soon be reined in with a few reminders. But take a look for yourself: there are some highly articulate reviewers on there, coming from a range of backgrounds.

Should the BBC be doing it?
- If they don't, they'll look a bit feeble! Closing down the opportunity for viewers to give their own, public feedback looks as though the BBC is frightened of hearing negative criticism. In that circumstance, no one wins.
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 09:21am on 27 Nov 2008 I've used h2g2 when I was on another BBC site. It's much too vast and too fragmented for me, I can't find my way around it, and I also don't like the fact there's pressure on you to post personal info about yourself on your homepage. Yet another good thing about PoV is that you're simply a forum name, and that's the beginning and the end of your ID. It's very liberating and allows you to expore ideas more fully.

In an ideal world, most BBC producers would come and take a look at relevant PoV threads (I know some already do) and then the forum could be used as a valuable source of feedback. In my other life I sometimes meet people from the BBC, and I was dismayed that the last producer I spoke to had never heard of the forum, or seen the thread relating to one of her programmes.

You still haven't defined 'useful' for me, Nick, but I'd say a place where the public were invited to give feedback on the BBC's output would be of mutual benefit, on all kinds of levels.
Points of View Message Board 2: Off Topic and Off Site 6:28pm on 26 Nov 2008 OK, here I am, engaging.

“In the short amount of time I've been hosting parts of the board I've spent nearly all of it moving threads to different places or closing them because they've been off topic.”

- If you want to make sure people stay on-topic, Nick, you need to have a much more visible host presence. Expecting people not to stray conversationally is like telling a class of schoolchildren not to talk about anything other than ‘To Kill A Mockingbird’, and then buzzing off and leaving them to it for not just a term but the entire school year. More than that: sometimes hosts have joined in off-topic chat. They’ve certainly never ever in the history of the board commented adversely on or removed threads about non-BBC programmes.

If you feel the forum should only be about BBC progs, fine, but police it. That’s all the board needs.

“There's only been one instance where I've managed to encourage a conversation which might actually be useful to someone.”

- That rather depends on how you define ‘useful’. The boards are meant to be about expressing opinion on BBC programmes and related issues. And that’s what I see going on in all the forums. Such discussions, where people say whether they like a programme and for what reason, are fulfilling exactly the remit of the boards. How can that not be classed as useful?

As for your comments about alternative forums and blogs, I’ve been on some of them briefly, but what draws me back always to PoV is it’s all handily encapsulated in one spot, plus I’ve spent three or four years getting into a community there, building a relationship with regular posters. That’s a hugely important aspect to me and I suspect it’s the same for many others.

I’ll say again: I don’t want a blog, I want to be part of a forum. More specifically, I want to be part of the PoV forum.

If you want to put a stop to people posting about non-BBC programmes, then do so. Go on the boards, make yourself known, explain the rules have changed* and enforce them, till members get the idea. It’s a very small and fixable problem, and certainly no justification to consider anything drastic.

*I know you’re going to say the House Rules state BBC programmes only, but in practice this has never been enforced in the history of the forum.

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