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greypolyglot

Listed below are comments made by greypolyglot between Saturday, 20th June 2009 and Sunday, 21st June 2009.

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Lisbon: A Pandora's box 8:08pm on 21 Jun 2009 " #166. At 7:33pm on 21 Jun 2009, ikamaskeip wrote:

What I will never encourage/accept/allow is that England should become a cog in the corrupt, venal, undemocratic institution that presently calls itself the European Union, but, in point of fact is the de facto EUrocratic dictatorship of self-serving big business and self-aggrandizing petty-Politicians."

Ah me. Really this says all that you have to say on the subject. Why post anything else? Just keep repeating this mantra time after time.
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 7:36pm on 21 Jun 2009 " #154. fragility:

I have to remind you that in #145 you agreed that there is no need to read the entire Treaty text to disagree with it."

Yes. But I'd expect any reasonable person to get so far and then, at some point, say "I can't agree with this point so there's no need to read further."

So far no one here has said "I got to Art whatever, found that I couldn't agree with it and stopped there." It all seems to be a sort of generalised "I don't like the EU", "the EU is undemocratic", etc. without anyone citing any particular Article of anything and saying "this isn't for me".
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 7:25pm on 21 Jun 2009 151. fragility:

Isn't there a clause that abandons the unanimity principle in deciding further changes in EU legislation? If this is the case, the the rest of the treaty is entirely meaningless, at least for the Irish people since any article can be changed over night without them having any opportunity to veto the change."

Although there is no "unanimity principle in deciding further changes in EU legislation" there some areas where Member States do exercise a veto. However, many issues are already decided by Qualified Majority Voting.

Qualified majority voting, as opposed to unanimity, has long been the way that decisions are taken at the European level. Lisbon increases the number of areas for QMV. The counter to QMV is the "blocking minority" which requires the agreement of several States. QMV exists because the more participants there are to a debate or vote the more unlikely it is that unanimity can or will be achieved.

National Parliaments don't require unanimity before taking decisions. In many places e.g. the UK a simple majority is all that's needed. National elections don't require the unanimity of the electorate is deciding which party or coalition gets to run a country.

If you don't like or trust EU texts on the subject try one from the Irish. Google "EU Reform Treaty/pdf08-white-paper_english.pdf" to find it
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 2:50pm on 21 Jun 2009 " #139. ikamaskeip:

Give it up mate!"

That's hardly a straight answer.

Do you disagree with the Treaty without having read it or do you disagree with it because you have read it?

If it's the former I don't really need to comment. If it's the latter may I ask which was the sticking point for you?
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 12:27pm on 21 Jun 2009 " #139. ikamaskeip:

greypolyglot and #137.

Give it up mate!

If it's any comfort - - You are now honorary member of the Lake Inari chuckle n charm club"

Crikey, that's a long way from Pieksamaki!
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 12:22pm on 21 Jun 2009 " #140. fragility:

Would you regard it as a sufficient condition for "no" vote if one disagrees with a single article of the treaty? And, if so, what is the point in reading the rest of it?"

Agreed. So how far did you get and what's your sticking point?
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 09:31am on 21 Jun 2009 ikamaskeip et al.

Just so that I can be clear. Have you read the Treaty and disagree with it or do you disagree with it without reading it?
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 09:01am on 21 Jun 2009 "#114. ikamaskeip:

I have to admit complete admiration for greypolyglot, mathiasen and threnodio."

Would I be wrong to suppose that this statement is sarcastic?

The Lisbon Treaty is easier if you read the consolidated version. Nonetheless, I have to agree with its detractors that it was not written in a style that helps understanding by the general reader. Sadly, the style overshadows the content for all but the most persistent lay-reader and those poor souls who have the misfortune to be used to that sort of thing.

Before any of you ask, no, since I am not a spokesman for the EU I'm not.going to give explanations or interpretations. If you don't understand something try googling "europa treaty of lisbon".
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 8:14pm on 20 Jun 2009 " #100. fragility:

Haven't you noticed that your #65 actually fails to answer my #57?"

I thought that the third and fourth paragraphs of my 29 and the last paragraph of Ticape's 66 were sufficient and I still do.
Lisbon: A Pandora's box 6:37pm on 20 Jun 2009 " #75. MarcusHorribilis wrote:

You still didn't answer my question of whether or not you read it yourself, we haven't even gotten to the point of discussing whether or not you understood it."

My answers are "yes" and "yes". The ability to read and understand complex texts is fundamental to functioning as a translator.

Do I presume too much in supposing your answers to be "no" and "no"?

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