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DanDydin

Listed below are comments made by DanDydin between Saturday, 7th March 2009 and Tuesday, 6th October 2009.

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The Hell-co 7:07pm on 06 Oct 2009 Re. 15 - Stonemason

But you miss the points made (and by the way - there was no rhetoric). This is not about natural selection or children choosing. It is about governments actively promoting the Welsh language as a second class language, one which is not to be used, not to be taken seriously, and has no future. Where one must request Welsh forms at the post office and feel like a skunk for doing so. This is about the governments (to continue with the metaphor) continuing to support the deforestation which endangers pandas (whilst all the time saying that the survival of pandas is important).

This is not the natural way, not a free choice for children or anyone. This, currently, is a society where even speaking Welsh is scorned upon (see some other contributors to this blog), the language is treated as an add-on and where speaking Welsh at a meeting is considered extremism.

Me? I say yes to saving the pandas and to ensuring that the local governments have their say in the decision to save, not their neighbours. Simple really - who should decide on Welsh language policy? The Welsh people should.

I would suggest that it is you who failed to understand Darwin.
The Hell-co 09:52am on 06 Oct 2009 Re 3 - Stonemason:

Yes, Darwin does apply to all. But sometimes the intelligence of human beings enables us to try to stop extinction in costly ways. Consider the pandas - millions spent on preserving them, while some experts have recently called for the natural process to be allowed to continue and let the pandas become extinct.

Are there some things that we value as a society enough to legislate for their survival, even at cost? Persuasion is not enough. We fail to persuade elephant hunters to stop killing elephants. It takes legislation.

The potential death of the language is not a natural phenomenon - as with the pandas there are many, very human, reasons encouraging its demise.

Darwin also considered nature in its natural habitat. Welsh in Wales is a language in its natural habitat. Comparing with immigrant ethnic languages, which also have needs and rights - albeit different, does not stand up to scrutiny. In order to have a precedent the underlying factors must be the same.

Should shops be included? - of course they should.
And finally ... 00:31am on 09 Sep 2009 Mapexx55 : re.5 -

British Council
A grand old time 7:49pm on 23 Jun 2009 At 5:25pm on 23 Jun 2009, Noah_sembly almost wrote:

Time I fear, for Welsh speaking folk to leave Wales.

The English language fanatics have taken over the appalling assembly, and are intent on making Englih the 'preferred' language. If you and your children have no wish to speak English, then look out.

Shame he didn't.
Sleeping lions and leaders 6:51pm on 29 May 2009 Ho ho! Mapexx at post number 33:

Please check your facts about name derivation and meaning before you post all clever like!
"A growing maturity?" 09:39am on 08 Mar 2009 On Welsh language literacy - I note that a number of individuals have mentioned the old myth that large numbers of Welsh speakers are not literate in Welsh.

Yes, it's true, and mostly down to education received. However it is important to realise that Welsh speakers have better Welsh language literacy than the equivalent for the English language.

Evidence? BASIC SKILLS AGENCY's "ASSESSING PROFICIENCY IN READING AND WRITING WELSH - WRITTEN REPORT ON FINDINGS - MARCH - SEPTEMBER 2004" - all available on the web of course.

This was the first ever survey of Welsh literacy amongst adults in Wales. 1,363 Welsh speakers of ages between 16-64 participated.

There is a comparison between Welsh and English:

59% of Welsh speakers had the second highest level of understanding, spelling, writing and punctuation - the second highest level being enough to pass a GCSE at grades D-E.

English in comparison had 37% at the second highest level.

So literacy at this level:

Welsh = 59%
English = 37%

When looking at the highest level (GCSE at grades A-C) they were similar and not significant:

Welsh = 37%
English = 38%

Interestingly BRMB Social Research found in a different survey that 25% of adults in England have English literacy skills lower than the second highest level (i.e. GCSE at grades D-E).
"A growing maturity?" 09:17am on 08 Mar 2009 Re. 121. by TheStonemason:

er... no!

Stonemason wrote: "Because I asked for the actual location of information"

You actually asked for a reference: "Very interested, what is the exact reference so that I may read it."

Stonemason wrote: "There are 3 books, all are in facsimile format so searching for a single item is not possible, as you well know."

How wrong Stonemason is. If he had read the book he would know that the schools are treated in an orderly fashion in a logical geographical manner. It really is very easy to find information on any school in any area.

Stonemason wrote: "A serious omission is the failure to inform the readers that the average school attendance for boys was an average 2.8 years whilst the girls attendance was 1.17 years average."

The point made was that the children could not read English, but were Welsh speaking, as we know is true of Swansea at that time. We also know that literacy was generally higher in Welsh as children were only at school for a few years, but attended Welsh Sunday Schools for years where they were taught to read and write.

Stonemason wrote: "speaking of the workmen who paid one penny a week for the school ..... "In general they were apathetic towards education.""

As were the working class across Britain at this time - not really relevant to the issue of language.

The point being made was that the Blue Books were simply an awful report which failed to gather all the data required to make judgements.

You were also pedantic and 'incorrect' about the name of the Blue Books. Yes, you were being accurate, but also silly. Everyone of every political persuasion now (and has done for about 100 years) calls the report and the historical episode "Brad y Llyfrau Gleision" "The Treason of the Blue Books".

Cherry picking it was not - the facts are:

One school with 23 children tested. 19 were definitely Welsh speaking (probably monoglot) - we know this because they attended Welsh language Sunday School where Welsh literacy was taught. While it is probable that the other 4 were also Welsh speaking, but attended English Sunday School. The inspectors, in their wisdom, asked the children to read out an English document.

The Blue Books changed the psyche of the Welsh people for 150 years+ and still has a huge impact. Why else would we even be discussing the language today. Why would some be talking of English being the language of progress etc.

Let our children speak Mandarin or Spanish too eh? Yup, that's the Blue Books...
"A growing maturity?" 12:23pm on 07 Mar 2009 Re. 114: Stonemason:

One has to laugh along with Stonemason at his request for a reference to the information I gave in message number 111.

In another message he said about the report "On the State of Education in Wales" (known as the Blue Books) that:

"I do not see the difference as "splitting hairs", it tells me you have read neither, I have only read the report, so can only debate the facts."

Brilliant! Ho ho! Because the information I gave in message number 111 comes from... wait for it...drum roll... the Blue Books (or "On the State of Education in Wales), which he claims to have read and suggests others should do so!

A true historian! ;)

If you really want to read the information it can be found here:

Ralph Robert Wheeler Lingen (1847) On the State of Education in Wales. London. William Clowes and Son for the HMSO - page 10 and in detail on page 360
"A growing maturity?" 11:40am on 07 Mar 2009 In 1843 a rather bewildered "Englishman" wrote to the Cambrian after visiting the disturbed Rebecca distrcits, having been met with "suspicion and vindictive animosity". He could not understand how the power of the law could be treated with such contempt and concluded that "a free and open intercourse with Englishmen would greatly improve the tone of society in this country and introduce the community to civilised life."

The seed that was sown in the 1840s still bears fruit. Turn to the correspondence columns of any local newspaper in South Wales, or indeed BBC comment boards, and you will find those who argue that Welsh is a useless tongue whose demise cannot come quickly enough. All in the name of progress of course!
"A growing maturity?" 11:35am on 07 Mar 2009 When the Chartist miners and iron workers marched on Newport in 1839 The Times correspondent reported that the "ignorant mountaineers" of South Wales had preserved secrecy when planning the rising by "universally making use of the Welch language".

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