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veryfaraway

Listed below are comments made by veryfaraway between Tuesday, 10th March 2009 and Friday, 13th March 2009.

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Language of the downturn 01:56am on 13 Mar 2009
MunichMadrid,

Or we could think about bananas and pineapples v carrots and potatoes.

I say grow the vegetables in Scotland and you say the fruit. We both agree they're healthy.

We'll be better placed economically in the future if we can export the fruit. No real international demand for the vegetables.
I'd go for potatoes and carrots.
Language of the downturn 9:23pm on 12 Mar 2009
Oh sorry forgot to say, people move about in Scotland. My mother was one of 6. Only one stayed on the island. And this is not unusual.

So there are gaelic speakers dotted about all over Scotland, including Edinburgh. And I know there are many lowland adults who wanted to learn, because my mother was employed to teach them.
Language of the downturn 9:14pm on 12 Mar 2009
MunichMadrid,

What do we agree on?

Education is for the common good and necessary.

Learning languages helps to open/expand our minds/horizons (hopefully) and is not divisive? Now for me this has to be a yes or no. Not yes if ... and no if ....

Evidently children who grow up hearing 2 or more languages in their daily lives;
- parents/relatives speak to them in those languages,
- television programmes in those languages,
- being taught in the language,
- comics, books etc in those languages,
just absorb them and all by themselves they work out who to speak to in which language.

So we need teachers and an enormous amount of resources for it to be meaningful en masse.

This is rather different than being taught a language at school and there being nothing else to back it up. My parents (absolutely dedicated to their children's education) tried to make us speak French at Sunday dinner. I happily chirped away with far more accent than substance; brother 1, who barely spoke to his father full stop, point blank refused and brother 2 grunted away unintelligibly as was his wont. This high ideal was abandoned before the month was out.

There are far more resources, qualified teachers, native speakers and fluent speakers of Gaelic in Scotland than that of Mandarin.
So for me, if you were to have any compulsory 2nd language in primary, it makes far more sense for it to be Gaelic.

So then we can discuss compulsory or optional. Neither of us disagrees with optional.

Do you actually think it will be truly viable and meaningful to have compulsory Mandarin throughout UK in your lifetime?
What they're not telling you 4:27pm on 12 Mar 2009

Why bother cutting spending? Couldn't we just continue to quantitively ease for the next half-century?

Or maybe get rid of the doctors, nurses or teachers. That would give administrators a bit of extra cash to throw about.
Language of the downturn 3:53pm on 12 Mar 2009
MunichMadrid

"It does not require Hawkingesque brilliance to spot that China is going to be at least on an economic par with the US very soon."

Like this? :-

Madoff admits $50bn fraud scheme (BBC News)

sorry don't know how to do links and too lazy/exhausted to learn today.
Language of the downturn 1:31pm on 12 Mar 2009 # 1731 Munich

"Do you accept my analogy with Cornish (1723)?"

No. I know very little about Cornish culture and so, unlike you, I would not assert that it would be "little more than an act of political propoganda, designed to reinforce a sense of uniform Cornish otherness from the rest of the UK".

You presume to know what Scottishness is or should/should not be. From what you write, I hear you suggesting compulsory learning of local languages is political propoganda and divisive BUT compulsory Mandarin is quite simply not.
Global politics is the way to go because it's based on economics?
Are you providing us with our new "false global identity"?
Neither wee Edinburgh, nor her parents nor her teachers and certainly not her politicians may have a say in this. You have decided to protect her from her ignorant adult population who straight out are divisive.

Where do you stop? Are you ready to take on the Basques and tell them their children must learn English, Mandarin, Spanish and/or French and they can have Euskera as an option? Ah no, they're not part of the UK. There is no UK education system. Scotland has its own but you would meddle and tell us who we are, what we should do, why we are wrong.

I would almost stake my life that not one Scottish teacher would vote to change our Educ. system to the English one. Perhaps our legal system could become global/English too? It is not my intention to be facetious but you insist in ignoring Scottish identity or stating it is nothing more than a political ruse, or ....

Our children will know they're not Chinese but they will gullibly think all their ancestors were Gaelic speakers. SNP politicians are politically motivated to mislead and divide, others are - honest, upright, intelligent? economically motivated? (and that's good, no?)

You condemn aye_write and her children to your brave new world, whether she likes it or not. YOU know, and she must be saved from her own political choice.

Methinks she (and other parents) would be in a far better position to voice their concerns over their children's education than you. While she might indeed be all for compulsory Mandarin I don't think she would argue on the basis that Gaelic divides...

In at least part of the Western Isles in primary schools, parents have a choice of putting their children into Gaelic (with English) or English (with Gaelic). My cousin helps her neighbours' English children (in the Gaelic group) with their homework. I think these children know that their parents are not native Gaelic speakers.

"We are in a phenomenally lucky position to be mostly Anglophones in the UK, most countries have to expend a great deal of budget in making (yes, not all of them are naturals) their kids learn English. It's a necessity, they don't have a choice."

Absolutely dispute they all learn English (although certainly agree it should be taught - and well). You have no idea how many non-English speaking teachers "teach" English. Indeed how many "teachers" have no teacher training. You'll have to take my word here. I couldn't believe it myself.

"Why not try to plan ahead for once in the UK? It does not require Hawkingesque brilliance to spot that China is going to be at least on an economic par with the US very soon."

I think you would be better talking to Brown and getting some basic economic common sense spread throughout UK before our 5 year olds are able to do it in Mandarin.

"Any non-closed society which wants to succeed will benefit greatly from having both English and Mandarin."

We'd also benefit from being healthy, numerate, literate, open-minded, able to differentiate between constructive criticism and shallow propoganda; having politicians and professionals with integrity; less box-ticking bureaucracy, idealistic meddling and more real work.

"Luckily for most of us in the UK, that only means learning 1 extra foreign language. Even the least gifted linguists could manage the basics if teaching began at age 5 (like it does in much of Asia re English)."

You're telling me that most people in UK (presently with only English) speak, read and write English well? (dare I say it, especially the younger generation)

"Instead of blowing education budgets on politically-motivated schemes whose primary aim is to cause and reinforce un-historical linguistic divisions, why not do something good for us, just for once? That's my point."

Yes let's blow them on economically-motivated schemes whose primary aim is to cause and reinforce un-historical linguistic divisions. (Make up your mind - language learning divides or it doesn't) Or were my ancestors Mandarin speakers...?

Move over education.

Now you've given us your spin and idealism, let's get practical, resources ....

I'm beginning to think you're a politician
Language of the downturn 9:42pm on 11 Mar 2009
# 1725 Munich

Firstly apologies for rushing off...

Great, Very, let's just get on and teach them only subjects they want to learn then.

Neither said that nor implied it.

Forget Maths, Science, useful Modern Languages, IT, even Art, Music and English for those children who don't think they need to know about them? Let them learn what only they're interested in?

Never said that either. Quite the contrary. My point is that you cannot put economics (or anything else) first over the child. I think I said well-balanced or something similar, which implies exactly that - balance. That way, hopefully, we get a well-balanced society full of people doing all kinds of jobs with some basic knowledge and interest in other things. My opinion is that generally Scottish primary schools (without all the testing) do/did it all quite well but I'm no expert there. Then we arrive at secondary schools and pupils start to switch on and off and at 13/14 choose to develop their interests.

When I put 'drummed in' before I meant learnt well, by whatever effective and interesting means, not the rote-learning of yesteryear. Some useful learning is boring, however, and there isn't much anyone can do about that- apart from not teach it?

Accepted. (more or less)

Why not instead persuade children to be interested in what's good for them, by making the subject come to life?

That indeed is what a good teacher tries to do, which is why you need expertise, enthusiasm and the skills of teaching although you don't persuade people to be interested - you get their interest or not using all kinds of methodology. My biology teacher had great success with one brother and sister. The other 2 of us - no interest whatsoever. Eh.. so we went off on other tangents and chose subjects we were interested in.

That's what the gold-plated pension is for!

Doubt I'll get anything unless I return to my home shores... I have no idea what/if anything I would get for my years served in Scotland and have no interest. I didn't go into teaching for the money and I wouldn't stay in Scotland (or anywhere) just for the gold... I have the wanderlust thing and cannot give up my soul, living my life, for money. We're individuals, making all kinds of weird personal choices.

[That and dealing with 30 children 8 hours a day...] you found Mandarin interesting enough to learn, Very, now get on and teach it to as many of our kids as possible, please, by whatever means you can think of, it's a national priority, believe me!

This is what I mean. I personally could never become expert enough to teach Mandarin, nor know how to get kids excited about it. I hated art at school, couldn't draw, I think the "sunflowers" is an ugly painting, wouldn't take it for free, but I loved Chinese art. No idea why - just appealed to me, so I started learning about Chinese culture..... I'm learning to draw - years later... Bad teaching does a lot of harm and I want no responsibility for turning someone off.

Children are our future and their education is a national priority.
We're human beings - not robots. Children are not blank minds to be filled up. You take their natural curiosity and go with it, but you have to accept their interests also.

I think we'll still disagree and indeed you may find other teachers who agree with you. Fair enough.
Language of the downturn 12:38pm on 11 Mar 2009
1st rule of teaching. The child is more important than the subject you teach them. 2nd rule: you start with what the child knows and go from there.
Implicit: you teach ALL children

When I started teaching in Scotland 3 of us were probationers. One, a brilliant mathematician, was finally after 3 years, "let go". No-one doubted her brilliance at maths, nor her enormous desire to teach, but she couldn't get down to the level of the charges in front of her, talked right over their heads. In short a very bad teacher.

Scotland was, and I think still is, very strict about this. I must be expert in my subject and I must be able to teach well.

I have an honours degree in two subjects but as one is a "minor" I am not allowed to teach it, in Scotland. In England they'll take me to teach anything I have a "higher/a level" in.

You don't "drum" things in. You wake them up (or not...) to all kinds of possibilities. Good teaching is an acquired skill. Children are the salt of the earth and our future. They are human beings, destined for economic or artistic or scientific or linguistic or sporting etc great or lesser things. And any particular mix thereof. That will be their choice. Not mine, Nor yours.

With my colleagues I do my best to keep them interested and enthusiastic, accept their strengths and weaknesses and go on to make something of their lives.

I'll be back - got to go work......
Sorry for what? 11:25am on 11 Mar 2009
# 612 grandantidote

Definitely no saint... Oh yes I'd love a little house and garden, but there again I'm not too interested in having a mortgage hanging round my neck weighing me down. I never wanted anyone else's house and certainly not anyone else's life. Wouldn't know all the baggage that goes with it. I think this is just being realistic, not saintly. None of us can really know what anyone else has gone through or what their dreams/ambitions are. Appearances are superficial.

When I could have bought a house many years ago, I wasn't ready to settle down so I left a secure job, decently paid, that I loved, for adventure. That's what I wanted. It almost killed me, it opened my eyes wider, there were good times and bad times and I became a little wiser. Certainly don't regret it.

Still don't own a house... maybe one day. Never wanted some fancy car, just one that "worked". Now I have a moped - really easy to park and cheap to run. I'm not very materialistic - I love to be able to run free, to change my mind and I pick up the pieces (accept the consequences) of my own decisions.

Sorry for rambling a bit, I guess my point is the only life I have any kind of control over is my own. If luck comes into it, so be it - good or bad. My genes have just been passed down the line and I guess are the luck of the draw. I accept what I got, funny shaped legs and all and do what I can.

I truly would like no-one to be locked up in a cellar for 24 years. That is a disaster. Fate/luck intervenes in everyone's life so I wouldn't judge anyone else.

I would like to see professional responsibilty. Less spin, hypocrisy et al, more down to earth honesty and sincerity "this is the plan - didn't work, got it wrong - let's start again". I think this is why people are so disillusioned. Politicians have got their knickers in a twist, trying to control everyone else whilst they're spinning way out of contol themselves.
Sorry for what? 5:00pm on 10 Mar 2009
# 598 grandantidote

Back again!
Neither jealous/envious nor a liar.
Hedonistic, I will accept. All I ever wanted to do/be was follow my own interests. Not in the least interested what someone else has/is or does. Doesn't change anything in my life.
When I wanted to learn to ski but had no money for classes - I'd get into hearing distance of an instructor and listen to him and watch what he did. Then I toddled off and tried it. Didn't even notice who had the money to actually pay for the classes. Irrelevant to my ambitions.

I also have quite funny-shaped legs but what the hell, they work. No wish to be a top model. Tried to learn car mechanics and I was useless, got frustrated and gave up. Not jealous of them - just glad they exist. Nobody else can make me better or worse than I am. Just me.

Maybe this is my talent, always optimistic that I will find the way to get and do what I want. And yes accepting when I get knocked down too often, well maybe I didn't want whatever after all....

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