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peace_4_all

Listed below are comments made by peace_4_all between Tuesday, 29th July 2008 and Wednesday, 13th August 2008.

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Opening ceremony cool - for some 00:15am on 13 Aug 2008 post 66. BeijingLondon

Chinese government may not allow independent media in Tibet but there are thousands and thousands of Tibetans from all walks of life crossing the border into Nepal and India. These Tibetans are crossing the border not because they are on some hiking trip or mountaineering expedition. Their only reason is to escape from the brutal regime of Chinese communist regime. They are also a source of information. The few foreigners that have been allowed into Tibet also have contributed to the information e.g They were able to cover the 1988 demonstration in Tibet which showed Chinese police beating up unarmed Tibetans. We also gather information from ones' relatives. So the government might think that they have completely sealed the plateau but there are gaps.
The Chinese government claims that the Tibetan language is widely used in Tibet, however most of the publications are Chinese.
I can go on and on. Luckily I live in a country where there is freedom of speech, freedom to practice your religion and freedom of media. I can see and read arguments from the both the sides and then make my own judgment.
National sentiment 9:47pm on 07 Aug 2008 vermilionbrush ..... your ignorance and distorted information is understandable .. after all what would you expect from a government that still controls what Chinese people can read and watch on television, when all publications and broadcast media are licensed by the government. Journalists are required to undergo Marxist indoctrination. Chinese government using the Great Firewall of China to block sites that it does not want the Chinese to view - such as Amnesty International, Falun Gong etc.

Now going back to Mao Zedong, he was the worst of the worst. His disastrous policies of Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and others resulted in the death of 70 to 80 million Chinese and Tibetans and others - thats much more than the 2 world wars combined. There were definitely problems in Tibetan society, it was not perfect as has been depicted in stories of Shangri-la. There was a gap between the rich and poor. ((for your information Dalai Lama came from a poor peasant family in Amdo, Tibet; he did not belong to any ruling class; him being a reincarnation resulted in his move to the Potala as a religious and political leader)).
But whatever, this does not give the Chinese communist any right to invade Tibet. There's huge problems in North Korea. Is the Chinese communist regime going to invade North Korea?
National sentiment 4:32pm on 05 Aug 2008 thanks londonlurker for your sincerity ..

I've no doubt about "teachers and friends working for the benefit of normal Tibetans." Its just that the 2 sides have a very different philosophy and understanding on a "conventional reality" level. The Chinese government policies are based on "Dalai clique", "Dalai separatist", "wolf in the monk's robes", etc etc. But the Tibetans revere Dalai Lama as a reincarnation of Buddha of compassion (almost like a living Buddha). Dalai Lama of course always insists that he is just a "simple Buddhist monk". So the 2 sides are on complete opposite side. And that's where the issue lies.

I've a lot of Chinese friends, from college and work. We get along perfectly fine. Because at the end of the day, we are all humans seeking happiness.

The best solution to the Tibet issue is "Dalai Lama" who has insisted only on autonomy (genuine autonomy) which would help in preserving Tibetan language, culture and religion - all of which are very rich. Tibetans will listen to his advice without an inch of doubt.
National sentiment 11:11pm on 04 Aug 2008 londonlurker ...

i think we've agreed on several points about peace and compassion and living in harmony.
we've also agreed that what the west did to china in the past was bad e.g opium war.
but if you insist that tibetans in Tibet are happy and the chinese government's policy in tibet is right and that it benefits the Tibetans then i completely disagree with you. Just as many of the Chinese supporters in this forum question the west about their understanding of Chinese mentality and philosophy, I question Chinese understanding of tibetan issue and problem. Just as you know how the Chinese have suffered under the West, we know how we suffered under the communist rule.
There were problems in Tibet, no doubt. Chinese government's argument of building roads, railway lines as a sign of progress and help for tibetans is not true. Roads were build initially to transport army trucks into Tibet and then resources out of Tibet. Tibetans are not happy under the chinese rule. This was clear from the fact finding delegation allowed by Deng Xaoping after Mao's death in 1979. I saw those footages and it was heart wrenching. It was like a scene from a food carying truck surrounded by people suffering from famine. in october 2006, chinese border guards shot at tibetan kids crossing the high Himalayan passes killing 2 of them. there are a few other such incidents record on tape. and there are so many that are not recorded.

But anyway ..
National sentiment 3:18pm on 01 Aug 2008 londonlurker ....

""""""My suggestoin is that Tibetans should try winning over the hearts of ordinary Han people, since giving China a bad PR is doing the opposite"""""""

Tibetans are not against Han people, they (at least the majority) are themselves suffering from the dictatorial regime of Communist party. I can tell you that Tibetans are against the Communist regime. After the earthquake in China, there was a big candle light vigil for the victims of the quake in the Tibetan communities. I've several Chinese friends here in United States.

"Winning over the hearts of ordinary Han people" would be difficult for the Tibetans living in Tibet because the government will never allow that. Many of the communist leaders in the past followed the old Maoist tactic of "divide and rule". That is the way to retain power for themselves.
As far as Tibetans outside Tibet, CCP will censor any news that brings such closeness. His Holiness has always talked about "Chinese brothers and sisters", that China has a "rich culture", about unity etc. I don't those talks are allowed in China. CCP should sit down and have a dialog with Dalai Lama instead of calling names and degrading him.

""""I'm against imposition just like you. And I feel the west is doing it. Look at Iraq."""""

Could you please explain that? Not that I'm in favor of this war in Iraq which was wrong. The initial support (in my opinion) arose from the 9/11 incident. Majority are now against the war. And we have 2 candidates who have different views of the troop pullout. There is debate about all the issues effecting the lives of people. That (i think) is the advantage of a democracy among many others.

"""""Then people like me (never been to Tibet) will have a hard time to imagine why Tibetan don't like Hans"""""

That's easy to explain with respect to "Tibetans " living Tibet. As I said before CCP is against Dalai Lama, meanwhile Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. So there are many policies that reflect this attitude.

"""""""said Tibetans are Chinese citizens are neighbors rather than families? just wondering..""""""

We can think of a gated community with several buildings. The largest building would be for Han of course. And we share the common park, benches, the water sprinklers, swings.
National sentiment 00:31am on 30 Jul 2008 response to post 190 londonlurker

first of all, thank you for your understanding and your fairness in commenting. i do wish you make a few more comments.

""""But here is one I have quite some problem with:"WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BRAINWASHED ITS PEOPLE SO MUCH TO THE EXTENT THAT NONE OF THE STUDENTS AT BEIJING UNIVERSITY KNOWS THE TIANANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE. I was born in 1980s, graduated from Beijing University and I know quite a bit about it.""""""

Yes - you would know about it because you were in the university at the time. I'm talking about kids born around the time of Tiananmen Square massacre who would be in the university now. I hope you will educate them about this historic event where so many Chinese gave their lives fighting against corruption, injustice and poverty.

""""""CCP government is in no way doing a good job. But it's our government. It's barely a solution just to criticise it without doing anything to make it better. If you truly think you are part of the chinese family, then get involved in the social process. It's easier to throw rocks at a house than building one.""""""""

I think there is quite a lot that can be done individually or as a group. One of the greatest step towards stability in my mind is coming from Dalai Lama with his middle-way approach. He is only asking for the true autonomy as actually written in the constitution. This will allow Tibetans to preserve their culture, language, religion, environment, literature, etc. Tibetans revere the Dalai Lama. Buddhism is a huge part of a Tibetan's life, our day starts and ends with it. Respecting and learning from your teachers is the essence of Buddhism.

"""""So in my experience, I don't think the government is trying to treat Tibetans as second-class citizens. Rather, Tibetans' welfare has never gone off the priority list. Most of the time, you just get corrupted local officials that can't do their job properly."""""

Tibetans are treated as 2nd class - there is no doubt in that. They are looked down upon as barbaric and dirty. We Tibetans are very religious. Materially we are very much behind the West and China. But I think spiritually we are quite advanced. Tibet has the best resource in the "understanding of the mind" from a Buddhist perspective. So we can be of benefit to each other - one side materially and the other side spiritually. You need both in life.
I'm sure you have read government reports of huge sums of money allocated for Tibet. In reality, they go to the pockets of Chinese officials (local). I don't think its that difficult to look into such corruption if one makes an effort. Instead the government pours huge sums of money in spying, surveillances and military.

"""""You may complain about Han culture tainting Tibetan culture, but please look at what the west is doing to the rest of the world. No society is living in isolation anymore. Things change. Culture evolves.""""

West does not impose upon others. I think that's the major difference. and I think that is an important difference. I agree with you that things change and culture evolves. But it should not happen through imposition, threat and abuse.

""""There were about 150 million Tibetan in 1950s (if I'm not remembering it wrong) and now 800 million(with all the killing by CCP these years), how to grow your economy and feed the people without dealing with other culture and societies?""""

The figures are off the mark. There were more than 6 million Tibetans before the Chinese communist invasion in 1950. Now there is less than 6 million Tibetans. The "800 million brothers and sisters" was a reference to the Chinese rural population. The economic boom has only benefited the cities while the poor becomes poorer.

""""So why not put differences aside and work together?"""""

I've nothing against the Chinese citizens. Dalai Lama has always said that we are neighbors and have to live side by side forever.

In the end, thank you again for your opinion
Inside Tibet's capital 8:05pm on 29 Jul 2008 wonderfulchinese ....

Tibetan scholars and authors have also written about the issues and problems in Tibet in the past. No society was perfect at that time. Just like anywhere in the world there were problems in Tibet. However there was no poverty. There were differences in the standard of living, there were gaps between rich and poor. But this does not give the Chinese communists the right to invade and occupy Tibet. This does not give the Chinese communists the right to torture and murder Tibetans and brutally suppress them.

The actual misery and poverty started after the Communist invasion of Tibet in 1950. It was not just Tibet, but in China also. Millions of Chinese people also died (70 to 80 million) during Mao Tsetung's rule.

If the Chinese government has nothing to hide, why is it there is no freedom of press in China. Forget about freedom of press, there is no press in Tibet - period. When responsible Chinese lawyers in China offered to provide legal assistance to Tibetans, they were threatened. In late March, 2008 several Chinese intellectuals appealed to the Chinese government for a change of policy on Tibet, offering 12 suggestions. So its quite obvious there is a problem - a big problem.

You are right in saying "What people want is peaceful development." What people also want is happiness. Both are inter-related. Hurting other people, suppressing other people's views and opinions and destroying other ways of life, building fear in people's mind does not lead to happiness and peace. They generate resentment. Peace and happiness can come from dialog and mutual understanding. In Buddhism there is something called the "ultimate reality" which means that all humans are same - because they all seek happiness.
Protesters' parks 01:19am on 29 Jul 2008 Post # 44 peter5566

Thanks for the information, this gives me a chance to reflect upon the situation at that time. This survey was taken in the last week of March and early April 2008 a very sensitive time during which the Chinese government got a good chance to deliver their one-sided propaganda. Also the olympic torch relay started around that time giving the Chinese regime another tool for their one-sided propaganda. They were able to use the situation to lie to the Chinese people of what actually happened.
Protesters' parks 00:34am on 29 Jul 2008 Post 43 kenchamwu

"""""I have lived in China for 4 years and have travelled within the country extensively. While the Chinese can be very critical regarding its government, on the whole it has great amount of support - in fact much more than most governments in the world. In a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural country where there are 1.3 billion people, there is bound to be some conflicts. I believe the Chinese government in general receives a B+ grade (maybe A-) from the mass. """"""

Well, in China if you don't support the government then you are in trouble. The government knows how to carry out such a policy - through intimidation, spies and fear.
So there really isn't true support.

"""""Not sure why the commenter believes the government has "hiden so much" though. I hope he/she is a fluent Chinese reader and have read extensively Chinese publication before coming to that conclusion. Many Westerners read the English version of Peoples Daily and come to the conclusion that the Chinese government is not telling everything."""""

That's very simple to explain. There have been a few "known" cases where any criticism of government and its policies means you loose your job and your life will be made miserable. I'm sure there are many unreported cases. After all, the biggest media in China is government controlled - People's daily, CCTV, Xinhua.

"""""East Turkestan"? No such place in the world. Maybe he/she means Xinjiang..."""""

Actually there is. If you do a "search" in google, you will find it. By the way Chinese government has a modified version of google for its people. Any searches of "Tibet", Dalai Lama, result in nothing. Youtube videos of Tibet, Dalai Lama are blocked. When there is no freedom of press, what can you believe?????
Protesters' parks 00:24am on 29 Jul 2008 post 42. hypocrisynone wrote:

""""How much do you know about free and fair election? President Bush was eventually declared winner over Al Gore and became the most powerful man on Earth..., by the court! Did he get the majority votes?

Did the British allow Hong Kongers free and fair election of governments and Governors during their 100-year rule? What had they got to hide?""""

President Bush did not get majority votes. Al Gore should have been the winner. Is the American system perfect ?? No - its not. But the point is we all know about it because of freedom given to the media. The 9/11 incident led to an unpopular war in Iraq. But then again election is round the corner. People are talking and discussing about it. Candidates are debating about it. This is what dialogue is all about. Here in America you will not get arrested for criticizing government policies.

What did the British hide? What they did in Hongkong and the opium war was wrong. Does anybody say that their colonial rules were good? I don't see anybody hiding about it. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Britain just like many western nation is a place where human rights and religious freedom exist. What they did hundred years ago was bad. But now there is democracy, liberty and freedom. People want to go and live there and settle there. In spite of the fact that foriegn journalists have photographed and video taped the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, the Chinese regime has the guts to rewrite the history and generate fear in people's mind. I can very well imagine what would have happened if there were no media at the time. Chinese police are arresting Tibetans by large numbers in the middle of nights, mostly men. Monastries now have very less monks. The restrictions are heavy. But I have hopes that our cause (tibetan cause) is non-violent and just, and justice always prevails.

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