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ArschAngel

Listed below are comments made by ArschAngel between Wednesday, 28th May 2008 and Thursday, 19th June 2008.

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Lisbon loopholes? 4:00pm on 19 Jun 2008 "ArschAngel, some people didn't understand it and voted Yes, following the party line."

Well, many didn't read it and just noted NO. You need to admit, not everyone on this planet can be a European and International Law expert. Of course, not everyone understood it. It is written by lawyers for lawyers, since you will not have to read it regularly in your everyday life anyway, and will hardly ever have to check the treaties, because as a regular citizen you hardly ever get into conflict with European Law - just just check out your national regulations usually to find out what rights you have.

Unfortunately Irish people were supposed to understand the Treaty to be able to make up their minds. Some trusted people they thought they were trustworthy already before, some just didn't trust some people just for the sake of distrusting them for whatever reason they may have (some just can't deal with others having power and therefore feel they have reason enough not to trust them). Some trusted people they had never heard of before, like Declan Ganley, a millionaire slamming companies that want to make money, okay.

As arrogant as it may sound - a treaty of that kind is not the kind of stuff non-experts should decide on. It is simply not a comic that everyone could understand. It is also hard to make it more understandable. You have to consider that 27 states have to agree on one text, and they all want to add their bits and pieces. Even if you started out with a simple text, this thing would end up like a huge Bible again after a debate among 27 states.

And on the way of renegotiating treaties you have countries like Great Britain or Poland that suddenly want to drop fundamental rights, because now that they have a chance to discuss Plan A again why not just drop some of that useless stuff like rights for citizens.

People just seem to not understand what kind of risks their vote includes.
Lisbon loopholes? 09:30am on 19 Jun 2008 "I have read brief shortened versions , which look what they are , sick makingly sugar coated , covering a bitter pill ."

Actually the treaty really isn't that bad. Probably you just expect shock and horror and are disappointed not receiving it, after all the NO-campaign has told about the treaty.
Lisbon loopholes? 09:27am on 19 Jun 2008 "If a no vote is respected as much as a yes vote, why weren't the people of Spain and Luxembourg encouraged to vote again after voting 'yes'?"

Because the Constitution and Lisbon Treaty are pretty much the same and they did not request opt-outs as well. Why vote again on pretty much the same thing?

"What makes you think that the Irish didn't think long and hard before this referendum?"

Because I have watched the campaigns before the referendum VERY closely. Some people did not think at all. They simply said - if you do not understand it, vote no. As a sensible citizen I would have suggested - if you do not understand it try to get informed instead. But many ignored the information they received - for the sake of a better deal, even though they did not even (want to) understand the deal they were offered in the first round.

I am not sure whether you should reward such ignorance with a better deal.
Lisbon loopholes? 02:10am on 19 Jun 2008 There are several legal ways to ratify without Ireland. People of Ireland were told about it before they voted, but they felt threatened and "bullied" by it and did not want to believe it was possible.

But there would also be ways to amend the Nice Treaty without a referendum in Ireland. I think e.g. abolishing unanimity could be done without a referendum in Ireland, because the Irish constitution would not have to be amended, since abolishing unanimity would not equal shifting more power of the national parliament to the European Union.

One thing is clear though - there is no state that is more souvereign than another. A yes-vote needs to be respected as much as a no-vote. Neither one of them can expect or even force the other to change their mind that they have made up. In case there is a second referendum people should think harder about what they truly want. It's not about bullying, but about making a final decision by taking every possible scenario into consideration.
The meaning of 'No' 01:44am on 19 Jun 2008 As far as I have read, the EU Commission also wants suggestions. It's easy to complain about something, but it's not that easy to actually make suggestions. Often, when I hear about suggestions, they are already in the Lisbon Treaty and would only need ratification.

Then there are complaints people voice that they actually need to address their very own government for. The EU only has the power it was granted by the governments. If the governments do not grant more then it is the governments themselves that need to make a change.

I actually believe that the governments are the way bigger problem in general anyway. They have failed to promote an idea they want to follow. They want the EU, but they also love to slam their own goals.
A constitutional catastophe? 05:33am on 28 May 2008 The NO-campaign is way too optimistic. There's another option Bertelsmann has not mentioned, but which is debated already.

Of course, Ireland would hardly voluntarily leave the European Union, no matter how much they disagree with every Treaty people have to vote on. So it would be impossible to have a referendum on leaving the EU in Ireland. People would vote NO on leaving the EU.

But if there is no way the EU can reform due to the problems during ratification processes the 26 other Member States can decide to go ahead without Ireland and cancel the treaties with Ireland. Article 62 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties is what might be the last resort for the EU against a NO of Ireland.

Nobody wants to get rid of Ireland, everybody wants Ireland to be in the EU, it would be a very difficult decision, but a few million people cannot stop a project that is meant to be for about 500 million people.

People in Ireland should not believe that they are the country that will matter when the rest of the Member States decide to move on. But Ireland could re-join the EU at a later point, when the people have finally understood what the Lisbon Treaty really was about when they voted against it.

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