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mcdv1975

Listed below are comments made by mcdv1975 between Saturday, 21st June 2008 and Saturday, 21st June 2008.

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Treaty puzzle not yet solved 3:19pm on 21 Jun 2008 @Wopitt (7)
No I don't think so. The reason we have all these problems now is precisely because of the existence of the EU. Without it we could have friendly relations, trade relations and countries could choose on which topics they wanted to cooperate. Now the Franco-German pseudo-Reich is trying to bully everyone else into submission and that is why there is friction.

@georgmayer (39)
Can we, Netherlands, leave too?

@need4reality (18)
the American system will also see the end of Bush in 7 months time. No such instrument exists over here where we are stuck with Barroso or whomever the political elite appoints as his successor even if we completely oppose it.

@dutchnemo (5)
Turkey will never be allowed in, so that won't be a problem.

@cryptomate (19)
please exclude the Netherlands from your list. The vast majority here is against more political integration.
UK insists 'no delay' 2:54pm on 21 Jun 2008 @frenchlily 913)
I also wonder, what is the rush? Why are national politicians changing their national constitutions as if its the most normal thing in the world? A mere word from their political masters in Brussels can get them to change constitutions. Totally unacceptable. It truly is like the Soviet Union where the 'parliaments' (if you can call them that) of the constituent republics also approved whatever came from Moscow, without ever questioning it.

@therealtruth (12)
according to the European court of Justice ALL EU treaties are constitutional by default. The ECJ considers the EU to be a government (and it is, the EU is an embryonic supreme government of Europe).
New UK twist over Lisbon 2:46pm on 21 Jun 2008 They should get the main architects of the "Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe" ie EU constitution mark I to testify. Giscard, Dehaene and d'Amato are all on record saying that Lisbon (EU constitution mark II) is essentially the same thing as its predecessor.

@ huaimec (39)
it is no surprise politicians increasingly put loyalty to the EU and its undemocratic processes ahead of their loyalty to their own electorates. The system was deliberately set up to encourage just that. Any government minister who disagrees will always find themselves cornered in Brussels. Remember that Monnet desperately wanted to deny peoples any influence as he feared they might vote the wrong way and elect the wrong persons. Much better to have the elitists appoint eachother, in his view.
Ireland questions EU course 2:33pm on 21 Jun 2008 No 2nd referendum anywhere before a 1st referendum everywhere.
Food, fuel and treaty woes 2:21pm on 21 Jun 2008 @johnsag (14)

Sovereignty is held at the national level, so that's where referendums will be held. Same thing happens in the USA where there are no federal votes (because the USA is a constitutional republic).

And be careful what you wish for, as decisive majorities would have rejected the Lisbon treaty not just in Ireland but also in Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, France, Britain, Portugal, Austria, Czech Republic and even Poland.

You EU-philes cannot change the rules of the game just because you don't like the result. I take it you are also displeased at how a Euro 2008 semi final can be contested between 2 countries who finished 2nd in their group whilst the 1st placed teams from those groups have already been eliminated.
EU to lift Cuba sanctions 2:13pm on 21 Jun 2008 Yet another decision taken outside 'parliament'. Of course, in the EU parliaments only exist (or are allowed to exist) to make it possible for the political elite to keep up the pretence of continuing democracy.
Czechs wary on Lisbon 2:11pm on 21 Jun 2008 @gordont10

do you always read all the manifestos of all the political parties in your national elections? No? Then don't vote.

Most politicians who voted in their national parliaments to betray their national parliamentary democracies have actually NOT read it either. Or completely fail to understand it as I deduce from conversations I have had with some of our dutch parliamentarians. Why should they be allowed to give away the national sovereignty and legislative powers of and in my country is a complete mystery to me.

Did you know that as of today there still isn't a definitive version of the Lisbon treaty available? How on earth can politicians vote to approve something that isn't complete yet? Heaven knows what they'll sneak in during next EU council 'summits'.

And even if we did unelect the politicians who signed treaties that we don't want, the treaties they signed are still there, and we are still bound to them. And the treaties subsequently bind succeeding governments. Sovereignty belongs to the people and therefore only the people can decide whether or not to 'pool' it somewhere.

This isn't the 18th century anymore, there is no place for your kind of arrogant elitism anymore and representative democracy won't do any longer. We demand participatory democracy. We do NOT elect politicians so that these politicians can then abdicate their responsibility by handing their powers over to an unelected political elite. We did NOT authorize such power transfers and we never have.

With the Lisbon treaty (actually, most decidedly also without it, but slightly less so) the EU becomes a de facto supreme government of Europe. It cannot be compared to the UN, World Bank, WHO, WTO who are all intergovernmental. The EU is no institution or organization, it is effectively a layer of government. As Prodi stated in the late 1990s when he was president of the politburo (commission): "The powers I have, there is no other word for it, are executive powers, governmental powers".

And of course, you completely displayed your arrogance by making the ludicrous assertion that only the very existance of the EU prevents war. Hogwash! Ask Yugoslavia where Milosevic was promised EEC support if he kept Yugoslavia together (support the EEC promised weeks AFTER Slovenia and Croatia had announced their secession).
Czech go-slow 1:54pm on 21 Jun 2008 Cryptomate's comment (6) is typical of EU-phile thinking. "You can do whatever you want, vote for or against anybody or anything, but we are going to go ahead regardless".

No wonder that increasingly people turn against political integration. They (we) rightly feel that we have no influence over it. The law making powers (legislative) have been moved away from the national parliaments (directly elected) and placed in the hands of an unelected body (EU commission/politburo) and the EU council.

Through the EU council, government ministers who have executive powers 'at home' now also enjoy co-legislative powers (together with the commission) in what is to be regarded as a blatant breach of the separation of powers. Any government minister who cannot get his law passed by national parliament now goes to Brussels, agrees with the 'colleagues' and thus can confront the national parliament(s) with a fait-accompli. No wonder national governments love the EU so much, they can bypass all that nasty opposition in their respective national parliaments altogether.

But now the peoples have caught on to this. They (we) realize that we are being lied to and defrauded by a political elite who keeps up the pretence of parliamentary democracy but in reality has created a sort of technocratic/political elite dictatorship.

Dictatorship is ruling by diktat and having the authority to make sure your diktats are going to be implemented, regardless of parliamentary support for it. Dictatorship does not necessarily require a secret police or physical intimidation. The Roman Republic had such an instrument available in times of crisis, where they could appoint a dictator for a fixed period of time who could then solve the crisis by any means necessary. And the EU fits this description of dictatorship perfectly, except that here the period of time is specified as 'everlasting'.

There is no direcly elected parliament with corresponding parliamentary powers. National parliaments, as I've explained, have effectively been sidelined, and the European parliament hardly is deserving of the name, as the key decisions are taken outside of it.

We can no longer directly influence those who make our laws. Why should they listen? We can't vote them out.
A double-crisis summit 1:39pm on 21 Jun 2008 All those in favor of endless political integration should leave the EU, because they are the minority.
The meaning of 'No' 1:34pm on 21 Jun 2008 @dhimmi (94)

exactly, Hitler and Mussolini were appointed as prime ministers without ever having secured the majority in any election. Hitler's party couldn't even muster up a majority in the one parliamentary election they did allow during their rule. In both countries there was widespread opposition to their respective appointments but of course, as time went by the opposition was intimidated into silent acquiescence.

From what I've been able to piece together, this intimidation is also what is happening to the Irish. They are being ganged up on and bullied by a cross-EU political elite who refuse to accept no for an answer (ie the "keep voting until you get it right" crowd).

@betuli (91)
as I have explained before, at least 3 parliaments (NL, UK, PT) did not have a mandate for ratifying this thing in the first place as they had specifically been elected in majority by promising a referendum (only to cancel the promise after pressure by foreign politicians, Merkel/Sarkozy/Barroso).

And besides, politicians are not going to derail their own gravy train, now are they?

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