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JorgeG1

Listed below are comments made by JorgeG1 between Saturday, 28th November 2009 and Tuesday, 1st December 2009.

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The fear of minarets 6:53pm on 01 Dec 2009 @ 36 CBW

"Of course neither I nor anyone else on here, no matter how educated, intellectually gifted, politically astute and claiming superiority of rational thought processes could possibly know the outcome of referenda on 'slavery' in the 1860s or 'segregation' in the 1960s!

We need only look at Switzerland's referendum result on Minarets to actually become aware that no one 'knows' the result until the last vote has been counted.

It is called the 'democratic' process..."

What is it with Europhobes? You dare to query the possible and occasional limitations of their hobby horse (and the hobby horse of the hard right), i.e. referendocracy, and they accuse you of being a fascist or, god forbid, a communist.

Well, there are different opinions on the issue, not just yours or mine, some of them here on the beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8388776.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8388793.stm

But this is what the 'democratic process' according to the Europhobe hard right (which, incidentally, accounts for the single largest group of Europhobes) is about:

- Asking the Irish to vote twice after giving them legal guarantees to address their concerns gleaned from public surveys on the reasons for the no vote on the first instance : "NOOOOOO!!!! THAT'S UNDEMOCRATIC!!! They forced them to keep voting (one hundred times) until they said yes. "

- 26 democratically* elected parliaments ratifying the LT : "NOOOOOO!!!! THAT'S UNDEMOCRATIC!!!, even worse, it's a treason, a EUSSR conspiracy..." (*plus one elected by the FPTP)

- A 1975 referendum that took place in a European country to remain in the EEC. "NOOOOOO, THAT'S UNDEMOCRATIC, we was lied to, we was robbed"

- A vote by the Swiss people to ban a particular architectural form that happens to be associated with a religion that they (the Europhobes) hate because 'it threatens our way of life' – "YEAH, CHEERS ALL ROUND, now that's what we call democracy!!!!"

So I am reliably informed that there's going to be a new entry in Wikipedia which defines the 'democratic' process according to the Europhobes:

"A process where every man and his dog gets to vote ONLY ONCE (cos we say so) and its result is only consider democratic if we, the Europhobes, like that result."

Have your cake and eat it, for a change...
Europe's top jobs 9:07pm on 29 Nov 2009 @ 200

"That is a Minority of eligible Voters, voting, and by a Minority of Votes cast, sometimes as low as 10% of the eligible electorate in a constituency area, the 750 MEPs claim a Voter Mandate to enact a unifying Treaty of Lisbon completely at odds with the lack of expressed support of Citizens."

I think you are slightly confused.

First I do not agree with your version of democracy = mob rule = mobocracy.

There are issues that are fine to put to referenda. Others are not. Is banning the construction of minarets one of them? I don't know, however a referendum on such morally sensitive and divisive issues equals to mob rule nonetheless. This is a bit like a referendum on the abolition of slavery. Such a referendum would have definitely returned a resounding NO vote if it had been held in the 1860s (or even in the 1960s) in the American South. Yet, is slavery morally right? But such a referendum would have met your narrow version of democracy = mob rule.

Something like the Lisbon Treaty should definitely not be put to a referendum. The only slightly viable referendum in that respect is an IN or OUT referendum and, even so, I doubt most people would know what they were voting for. But in that case, it would be the right thing from a legal and democratic point of view because it was the people directly who voted for 'ever closer union' (except that most of them didn't read or understand the small print, which serves to prove the problems with referenda) in 1975 so only the people can reject it by a direct vote now.

But again, you are in a mire of confusion. It is not the EU who denies you a referendum on the LT or EU membership; it is your British politicians who do so.

Second, you are getting all mixed up. The 750 MEPs did not 'enact a unifying Treaty of Lisbon'. It was the EU Council (i.e. the elected heads of government of the 27 EU countries) who 'enacted it'.

Third, you say that someone claims but lacks a 'Voter Mandate to enact a unifying Treaty of Lisbon completely at odds with the lack of expressed support of Citizens.' You, in common with other Europhobes enjoy the gratuitous use of words. 27 out of 27 parliaments of 27 EU countries have ratified the LT. They are the legally elected representatives of the 'Citizens'. If that is not a 'Voter Mandate' I would like to know what is. You are the one insulting democracy by debasing and rubbishing the decisions made by legally elected parliaments. If you think the vote of the British parliament ratifying the LT was not legitimate because of manifesto commitments that is up to you but in any case it's by the by. The rest of the 26 parliaments had fully legitimate votes. So this is an internal democratic deficit problem of the UK, not the EU as a whole.

Which means that the LT was democratically approved for the EU as a whole but you question the legitimacy of the UK ratification because of manifesto commitments. This is a UK problem, not an EU one, but you resort to the easy option of blaming the EU (and immigration) for all your problems.
Europe's top jobs 5:03pm on 29 Nov 2009 @ 140 Chris Arta

"CBW the Schengen and EURO both work very well for the countries that have them. I wish we also had them, it would make my life so much better. Unfortunatelly I have to suffer because we are too short-sighted to implement anything that will benefit the ordinary person. There are no "if" the EURO Schengen work!!"

Amen to that. It is difficult to describe how my life would be infinitely better as well if the UK was in the euro and Schengen. Unfortunately we have to suffer while the powerful Anglo-Saxon supremacists, anti-immigration and anti-EU lobbies get their way. The funny thing is that they believe they are on the losing side *because* the UK is still in the EU. I keep banging on that the UK may nominally be in the EU but it is one that only exists in history books. So we get the worst of both worlds.

Another issue is that I, and I am sure that my blogging colleagues Chris Arta, threnodio, etc. do as well, see both positives and negatives with the EU, the Euro, Schengen, etc. but we feel that the positives significantly outweigh the negatives.

That is the difference between most of us pro-EU and the anti-EU brigade. The vast majority of the anti-EU brigade can see *ABSOLUTELY ZERO* benefits in the EU, the euro and Schengen. All of it is negative.

My question is: Is that not fundamentalism? In turn leading to the next question: Is it worth having a debate with fundamentalists?
Europe's top jobs 8:57pm on 28 Nov 2009 @ CBW 94

"It is not my reference to Schengen that concerns you so much as your failure to explain the Spanish reaction to 'open borders' - - the overnight legalisation of 4.5 million illegal residents in Spain - - and that 1 in 3 under-25 Spaniards are unemployed because Spain's external borders (oh so strengthened by Schengen!? Not!) have since then let in another 1.0 million!"

Would you mind translating that into English please?

As for the bit that I manage to understand, I am not sure why my 'reaction' about a supposed 'overnight legalisation of 4.5 million illegal residents in Spain' matters one bit. What is your problem with that? Many countries have carried out legalisations of irregular immigrants, e.g. the US, France, Germany. Even the major of London is proposing to legalise to the tune of a three quarters of undocumented migrants (I assume in London alone).

I don't know what that has got to do with the debate. Neither what Spanish unemployment has got to do with Schengen or the EU? On a technical matter, if you add those classified as receiving Long Term Incapacity Benefit in the UK, the true unemployment figures in the UK would be rather more comparable with those in Spain. According to HMG figures no less than 5 million people have been in receipt of 'Out of Work' benefits at any point since 1997. Only a small part of that is made up by Job Seekers Allowance, i.e. the ones that are reported as 'unemployed' as opposed to the rest who do not count as active, therefore nor as unemployed.
Europe's top jobs 8:39pm on 28 Nov 2009 Forgot to post the link about the "winning team" re. my post at #95

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8382384.stm
Europe's top jobs 8:36pm on 28 Nov 2009 With permission from the moderators I am posting again the link that ranks the UK as an endemic surveillance society, a status that it proudly holds with no other challengers in Europe, other than Russia, if we include Russia in Europe. The link was broken on my previous posts:

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights

(Apparently the graphic is from the Torygraph (see footnote at the bottom), i.e. from FBJ's friends, which would seem to starkly differ from FBJ's fairytale description of Britain's 'civil liberties' at 24 above, in response to one of my posts).
Europe's top jobs 8:29pm on 28 Nov 2009 @ TBJ and his "winning team"

There is a very interesting article from yesterday on the BBC website about your "winning team" (ref. one of your posts on an earlier blog)

This is the opinion that this Gentleman (not a French or German neither a known Europhile but rather the former British ambassador to the US, someone who, by all indications, seems far more intelligent than the average politician of any mainstream party) has on your "winning team":

"The picture he [Sir Christopher Meyer] painted was one in which the then British Prime Minister Tony Blair was very much the junior and perhaps dispensable partner."

Now if you dismiss this opinion as irrelevant then you are really arrogant (something which from reading your posts, wouldn't come as a surprise) and really what you are saying is that somebody that has been knighted by your (unelected) Queen and held the top diplomatic post in the British service is basically inept, which in turn would also mean that the upper echelons of the British civil service are full of dodgy people.

But I am sure you wouldn’t think that and, rather, acknowledge his opinion as very valid and correct.

Other quotes from this article about your "winning team":

"The historical pattern is that interests are usually different and that therefore policies often diverge."

"Chicago Mayor Big Bill Thompson, at the time when the British Black and Tans were on a rampage in Ireland, declared that if he had the chance he would "bust King George in the snoot". "

"Britain has declined from being the master, to being a rival, to being a partner and now to being perhaps simply useful."

Hear, hear.
Europe's top jobs 7:48pm on 28 Nov 2009 @ FBJ 24

The Euro would damage our economy; Schengan our civil liberties.

You do believe your own fairy tales don't you?

The Euro could not damage the British economy any more. It is already knackered. The country is technically bankrupt.

Schengan (sic) could not damage British liberties. The only thing it would 'damage' is the ability of HMG to maintain Britain's proud 'endemic surveillance society' status.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights).
Europe's top jobs 7:42pm on 28 Nov 2009 Wrong link on my previous post:

"The UK's failure to join the Schengen agreement is an example of costly xenophobia."

http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2007/11/isnt-it-time-fo.html
Europe's top jobs 7:38pm on 28 Nov 2009 @ CBW 39

"The truth is, from the Paris-Berlin-Brussels perspective an independent, successful and progressive UK/England..."

Anglo-Saxon supremacism eulogies apart I have no reason to doubt that the UK might manage to find a way to be independent and successful outside the EU. Progressive I doubt it very much.

Unless progressive and 'endemic surveillance society' can be made to coexist together. Me thinks not.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights).

And banging on the subject (deliberately, because I know how much you and FBJ love it) the true and only reason why the UK is not in Schengen is a double whammy combination of the above 'endemic surveillance society' status and the extremely powerful influence that the anti-immigration and anti-EU brigades (which more often than not are one and the same group), exert very successfully upon HMG through their unelected tabloid bureaucrats.

And to quote (again!) the opinion of this from a former member of the BoE monetary committee:

"The UK's failure to join the Schengen agreement is an example of costly xenophobia."

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269&als[theme]=Privacy%20and%20Human%20Rights).

Now please feel free to write to him directly with your abuse, don't just pour it on this humble messenger....

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