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petermorrow

Listed below are comments made by petermorrow between Saturday, 21st November 2009 and Tuesday, 24th November 2009 (9 Hours Ago) .

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36 Arguments for the Existence of God 5:53pm on 24 Nov 2009
You know the cover of the book is almost as clever as the atheist ad thingy. Maybe it should be subtitled, "Almost a sunbeam for Jesus".

Dot to dotty, cooooooool.
36 Arguments for the Existence of God 5:43pm on 24 Nov 2009
Helio

Your comment is taking it's time appearing. Have you said something that maybe you shouldn't have and which is, now, the subject of modatorial debate, or have you been raptured and moved to another realm?

Here, hold on a minute, if you've been raptured, and I'm just about to sit down and eat.... that means.....
Don't label me ... 6:58pm on 23 Nov 2009
Brian

I'm going to try a do a bit of summarising.

If what is meant by labelling is the perpetual negative and stereotypical labelling of people (young or old) then, I'm with you. We are all more than a facile label. If this is the purpose of the poster then I have no objection. However I have suggested that there is another aspect to this advertisement and have tried to explain why I think that.

It is difficult to avoid the language used in promoting and commenting on the ad on the BHA website.

A few examples are these, "Time to stop the "good" of religion and mind-control...", "Please target faith schools", "Let's get religion away from kids". The website describes the ad as "The Atheist Billboard campaign" and, in the 'What do you hope to achieve' section, it is the word 'religion' which appears time and time again.

On the basis of this it is hard not to conclude that 'religion/belief/faith' is the main target.

Then there is this comment on the 'News, November 20' section of the BHA website, " "It doesn't matter whether the children are the children of Christians, Hindus or humanists - that's precisely one of the points of our campaign," said Andrew Copson, BHA Director of Education and Public Affairs."

Now, those are words I can agree with if what they mean is that everyone should be treated with respect and equality, and that people of all faiths and those of none are affirmed, I've made a lot of comments to this effect; but those words might also mean, there probably is no god so it doesn't matter who you are, grow up, put faith aside.

And I'm still not clear which the message is, or if it is both.

Does this ad allow for both the very worthy message, 'don't negatively stereotype', and/or the message (the Lady of the Green Kirtle speaks) "There is no land called Narnia...it is all a dream...there never was such a world...your sun is a dream... you have seen lamps, and so you imagined a bigger and better lamp and called it the sun... you've seen cats, and now you want a bigger and better cat, and it's to be called a lion... well, 'tis pretty make believe but even you children are too old for such a play... there is no Narnia, no Overland, no sky, no sun, no Aslan... and now, to bed all. And let us live a wiser life tomorrow."

from

The Silver Chair

Hypnotic, isn't it, like the clicking reels of a fruit machine.
Don't label me ... 00:23am on 23 Nov 2009
Brian

I'm glad we're understanding one another a little better.

Here are some more thoughts.

The main thrust of you last comments seem to be that you "discovered that they (the labels) didn't actually mean anything sensible coherent or relevant at all." and have come to prefer the description, might I say label(?), common humanity.

Now, I'm not quite sure how to understand that. Does this mean that a common humanity takes no account of other traditions and cultures. What does common humanity look like? What song does it sing, what dance does it dance, what food does it eat, what dress does it wear, what stories does it tell, what ideas does it promote? Does 'common humanity' have an identity or a variety of identities, ought it to be encouraged, does it make room for 'faith' in the story and experience of human kind even if it rejects faith itself?

I can understand that our children need breadth, I need breadth. I can understand that you have rejected 'Protestantism', in embracing what I would call a broader Christianity I have left much of it's baggage behind too. The church I was happiest in, quite some years ago now, was a wonderful mix of people from 'Protestant' and 'Catholic' backgrounds.

We probably don't actually disagree all that much in terms of the celebration of cultural diversity. I suspect you have no problem with children being nurtured with the food, social and cultural customs of their parents, but it seems we do disagree when that nurturing includes 'faith'.

A nurturing in 'faith' need not mean a nurturing in prejudice.

This is the bit I'm still not clear about regarding the advertisement, it's main target seems to be 'faith in God' (whoever that God may happen to be).

I am not a Jew, I am not a Muslim (I'll stop there or it'll be a long list!) but I defend the right of a Jewish or Muslim father or mother to say thank you for food around the dinner table and that in the expectation that the prayer will be heard, and having done that I would hope and encourage their children to join with mine kicking football, playing the PS3, or whatever, in celebration of their common humanity.

I think we can all do that without the need to 'forget the rest'.

And if the the Jews are right, if Yeshua is not the son of YHWH, or if you are right and there is no God at all, why should that come between us?
Don't label me ... 10:20pm on 22 Nov 2009
Brian

A more direct attempt at the questions you ask.

(1) The deep roots of our divide are many and various. They are historical, religious (of course, it would be stupid to argue for no religious element), cultural (a broader term than religion), social (including poverty, lack of worth or identity or opportunity), a failure to respect, a failure to engage with the 'other', fear, there might even be a class element (but it isn't as marked as say England, and aren't there deep divides in England which have nothing to do with religion?), political, governmental, a quest for power and control (to be 'top dog'), national (in terms of allegiance), selfishness, pride, an unwillingness to forgive, a 'moral' (not necessarily religious) superiority, and I'm sure if I thought about it there would be others.

(2) I have answered that, but if I might elaborate I don't think it necessarily wrong. Should we go on to say that national identities are wrong, or, in our schools, should we celebrate diversity and respect dress codes and so on, and how do we do that if not by recognising an identity? It's not just Protestant and Catholic. And is it really the case that all who identify as Protestant or Catholic are religious?

(3) Meaning, flip! I guess that for a start they might be substituted by any or all of the things I mentioned in answer 1. Protestant might mean, loyalty to 'Queen and Country' to some. It might mean Church of Ireland to others, I mean where do we go with this? And how do we better understand identity if we negate identity? And some people desperately need and identity or belonging, whatever that is.

(4) Differences might be important, the answer to that sort of depends on 1, 2 and 3. If, for example, 'Catholic' children have less opportunity to education than 'Protestant' children then yes, it probably is in that it helps identify who is in need and how assistance can be targeted. If Romanian children are being discriminated against then yes, differences are important, for we must learn more about them, teach our children about another culture so that they can help, care, respect others.

This is a huge social issue, and identities are not going to go away. (and nor should they)
Don't label me ... 9:40pm on 22 Nov 2009
Brian

Thanks for your reply, this is a bit long, but I feel the need to explain as fully as I can.

(I've also just noticed post #67 but I hope this goes some way to answering it)

The bit in all of this which leaves me uncertain/concerned is the implied meaning of the ad (all ads have them), and the only way I have of understanding that is in the wider context of the secular/faith debate which can become quite intense at times.

Of course, there are things said on both 'sides' which are partisan but there has also been a tendency to portray 'faith' as a kind of instability, a refusal to respect 'faith'.

I think too of the messages in both of the ads, the bus one and now this new one, and I think of the sound-bites, the individual parts which make up the whole and which can be 'shuffled' in the mind.

"Probably no God", "Stop Worrying", "Grow Up", "Choose for myself". These are rather potent, they are of the kind which stick in the mind, they seem almost hypnotic, clicking into place again and again like the reels of a fruit machine and they apply to people of all ages. And won't children read them? Of course this means that it's good advertising, and, if anything, the kind of advertising which becomes more potent with time. Indeed, intentional or not, they have 'book-ended' the year. There's a 'first and last' quality to them.

There is more that could be said about the layout, presentation and colour scheme, but in this context I'm suggesting that there is more to the message than facile labels of religion. That it's about more than Northern Ireland's troubles.

What I hear is more subtle than that. I hear (at least) 'Grow up, there's probably no God.' I hear, 'Grow up, you don't need to worry about faith.' I hear, 'Grown up, faith is childish.' I hear, 'Grow up, Grow up, leave faith behind.'

In this context then, a message, a philosophy, a belief, a value system (Might I say 'label', the label 'freethinker') is being promoted in the ad. This is subtle, yes, but potent, and I do think it reasonable to suggest that a 'label' is being promoted by this "Don't label me" ad. This is main point I have been trying to make.

If this were just about you, me or others carelessly firing labels around, creating negative stereotypes then that's a fair point, but I've also attempted to suggest that 'labels' or identity, as I have called it, is a much much more complex problem than a simple labelling. Identity, culture, diversity and tradition are good influences as well as bad, and I've tried to suggest that too. And how does one separate belief from culture? Even when people of whatever culture reject the existence of their god (whoever he or she might be) those cultural stories or myths still function as a kind of glue, an identity for that community. The Church of Jesus Christ Atheist is a case in point. And of course the list you gave to OT is pretty awful, I don't agree with any of those things, but isn't it fair to say that some wish to add to that list even a very benign form of Christianity which happens to say that Jesus really was divine and that he is still alive, and make that idea as immoral as any you listed.

Yes, I do have qualms about bland or negative labelling of anyone 'Protestant' or 'Catholic' or whatever, but I'm still not convinced that this is the sole premise of the advertisement; I think the issue and intent runs deeper. And can I say this, in all of my life in the broad evangelical church world, I have never heard any parent label their children 'Christian' or 'Protestant', if anything the opposite is true, there is a working assumption that all people, children included, must choose to become 'Christians', and are not Christians until they do choose, because the 'exercise of faith' is an individual act, and of course, not all do.

One more thing (sorry it's a 'me' story). I'm just in from church, I arrived home just as Spiderman finished, and I know this because my kids, when asked, chose to stay home with their mum to watch it. Faith isn't all 'brainwashing' or any of the other things it has been accused of, but unfortunately it is still my view that the more potent message of the ad portrays all faith as bad.
Don't label me ... 11:48pm on 21 Nov 2009
Brian

My final four lines were much too barbed and personal, apologies, I went too far.
Don't label me ... 11:09pm on 21 Nov 2009
Brian

Sorry you're so rattled.

Yes, Brain, I'm suggesting that each of us influence others, this ad pretends that there is such a thing as a value neutral society, there isn't. Some Humanists just don't like the way Christians influence others - that's what this is really about, isn't it? I'm not against influence, and neither are you, that is the point.

I see you are distancing yourself from Camp Quest, well, the British Humanist Association aren't. (but I can understand that in light of the ad it must be a touch embarrassing)

This is as straight forward as it gets.

The British Humanist Association are promoting Camp Quest on their website (alongside this new ad, the same one the Humanist Association of NI are promoting), the link is on the 'Meet Up' tab, and they, along with The Richard Dawkins Foundation, are named as 'Organisation Supporters' on the Camp Quest web site.

On the BHA site it says, "We believe that the positive influence of Camp Quest UK will help to develop children into happy, healthy and respectful adults."

The BHA also promotes a list of 'Best Books for Young Skeptics', (Is 'Skeptics' a label?) one of them is 'What About Gods?'

The blurb on the back of this book says, "Mythical characters, that's what gods are. They're not real. People make them up. You can make them up by thinking. Think about it - this book can help you."

Brian, why don't they let the children grow up and choose for themselves instead of trying to label or influence them?

You say my post #41 was about me, yes, you asked me, you asked "What is your suggestion for a better society, where young people grow up to live in peace, friendship and tolerance?" Why wouldn't my answer be about me and my thinking? I spoke of celebration many communities, what's wrong with that? Is it that it fails to fit the stereotype of 'faith'? What's the problem, I want to celebrate diversity. And the argument is being dismissed because the person making the argument is emmmm... what? in favour of the argument? Giving examples of the argument in action?

But I suppose you are right, I suppose amanofreason is right, "a rational and reasoned debate with a person of faith is an impossibility.", children are being "brainwashed". Is Helio right too, have I had a lobotomy, am I "primitive".

You're calling people names now, Brian, really, I'd prefer if you didn't label me.
Don't label me ... 7:39pm on 21 Nov 2009
Brian

At least we're getting *some* clarity here; but this is not just about faith schools (actually I might pretty much agree there), it's not just about how any of us label others, it is also, and quite significantly, about how parents raise their children; so maybe we should do as Parrhasios suggests and give the ad and it's subtleties "closer scrutiny".

Humanism is a *belief*, you say (don't you find *belief* objectionable, Helio?), but isn't the ad a promotion of (at least part of) the humanist *belief* system? Isn't Camp Quest, you didn't mention that, a promotion of the Humanist *belief* system, to children? Actually it is, it says so on it's website, "The camp's programmes and activities introduce campers to the history and ideas of freethought." it is "specifically for irreligious children...", isn't that a label? Are those children old enough to choose to be irreligious? What is the learning environment of Camp Quest? What is being nurtured if not at least partly a *belief*?

Isn't the ad guilty of doing precisely what it argues against? Isn't it saying, 'what we need to raise are irreligious, non-faith, freethinking, and therefore humanist children?' Isn't that the education of children in a *belief* system?

Isn't the book I mentioned raising children in a *belief* system, isn't that labeling a child?

Any chance of adding the CofE website to the 'Grow Up' ad, in the name of choice?

It sounds to me that the ad wants our children to grow up to be 'freethinkers', people suspicious of 'faith'; isn't that why it is encouraging parents to let children choose for themselves in an environment devoid of faith terms. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I might use a biblical term, it is raising up a child in the way he/she should go. I suggest the ad is promoting what it opposes, it is labeling children as 'freethinkers', it is promoting a *belief* system.

Regarding the age of children, at what age do you think a child is able to choose, you know, choose to choose? And doesn't the supposed inability of a younger(?) child to choose, mean that they must be, guided, educated, and doesn't that mean that someone must make a decision about what is best for that child? Who should that be, who is going to decide what is best? That's what the ad is doing, educating, guiding, promoting a *belief* system. That's what Camp Quest is doing.

And I did address the wider question you asked about the deep causes of our division as a society in NI, I did that way back in post 41 (and I did it quite extensively) but isn't the mantra of many atheists that faith shouldn't be respected?

That suspiciously like, 'love the believer, hate the belief'.

Now if we can't respect others, if we can't take time to communicate each of our *beliefs* to one another, how are we ever going to solve our problems? You see, you say you are not concerned about my individual interpretation of Christianity, or Bernard's, but how do we ever understand one another if we do not listen, if we are not concerned about one another. This is part of my answer.

I'm for listening, respecting, agreeing and disagreeing rather than the negation of identity.
Don't label me ... 1:15pm on 21 Nov 2009
I'll take it, Brian, from post #50, that this is not about 'labels' generally, but about religion or belief?

Well, at least we're a little clearer now.

But does that mean that the use of the soft coloured, reduced opacity word 'Humanist' in the background of the ad means that Humanism is a *belief* too?

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