The PM Glass Box.
In a real glass box every evening at 18.00, the PM production team meets to discuss the programme that's just finished. You're encouraged to do so here in this virtual glass box. This is the last editing shift for a while for tonight's editor Mark Frankel, who's off to another bit of the BBC for a while. But he will read your comments and may well add one of his own.
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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Brown just doesn't "get it", does he? The cheek of the left-wing media claiming the Sun is "using" her. How about Brown using the death of a young man in order to repeat the same old tired lie about "keeping the streets of Britain safe"?
Still listening, and it's being handled very well and sensitively by Eddie and Nick.
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You have really lost it Mr Mair, I have switched off the radio and won't be listening to PM again. You are as bad as the Sun, playing this Sun inspired attack on something utterly trivial, you clearly have no judgement, nor do the editors of this programme.
For all the things to criticise Brown for, his handwriting isn't one, would you be picking on someone else for their disability? I think not, wouldn't be PC and you'd have the disability sector down on you like a ton of bricks, and rightly so.
Brown inherited this disgraceful war on the Afghan people from Blair, who the Sun loved, he is in an unenviable position as the fall guy when Blair walked away from the mess smiling. Just because a tabloid rag is gunning for Brown doesn't mean you have to get in the gutter with them.
You are like a pack of jackals smelling blood, reason and taste go out the door with judgement, as you get caught in the visceral thrill of the chase. I find you disgusting.
Brown is a pathetic figure, he can do no right, and his blunders, decent attempts but clumsy and possibly ill advised, are not the crime that YOU should be interested in. Blair wouldn't have bothered to hand write a letter to the mere mother of a soldier he caused the death of.
I doubt most posters will get to read this, as you're bound to whip it off smartish, but you know its contents, all of you involved in PM, and I hope some of you at least are just a tiny bit ashamed of this sordid little incident. You have let the licence fee payers down, yet again.
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1. alanparker - stick with the Sun, your kind of rag clearly if you don't find the [possibly illegal] repetition of a secretly taped phone call intrusive, mean spirited, sordid and cruel. Let's all jumpt to the Sun's [Murdock's] agenda, in fact why not let the Murdock family decide the governmnet of this country?
Sensitively?
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DoctorDolots, don't mince words, just come out with it and get if orf of your chest!
;-)
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Seriously concerned that Alastair Campbell is orchestrating the comments on this blog. Remember he has done it before- letters to programmes nominating Blair for person of the year, letters to local newpapers supposedly from NHS workers etc.It's bizarre that they refer to Tory central office as some sort of spin masters.
What is interesting to some of us is that Brown denies he had done anything wrong (no surprise there) when speaking to Mrs Janes- see Andrew Sparrow's piece in The Guardian- and the fact that the helicopter issue has come up again.
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DD 2, I though the person who explained Brown's eyesight problems (I have enough of my own, but nothing like his) handled it very well.
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Eddie, No, we aren't all interested in who wins the lottery. Any more than we are all interested in The X Factor, Strictly Come Dancing, or any other rubbish 'reality' TV.
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David McNickle welcome back!
We all thought you had gone missing in the iD Portal.
:-)
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SG 4, At least DD's posts haven't been deleted.....yet.
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Overall, I'm with the Doc
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Sorry, have I missed anything interesting, I went off for a cup of tea when they started talking about Brown, Letters and Phone calls again.
Oh, by the posts so far no I haven’t. Still no News then! Oh it gets worse . . . lottery winners – that’s it it’s a NO NEWS DAY.
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Remember - the Sun and Tory Central Office have form regarding using every dirty trick in the book when it comes to media manipulation. It was "the Sun wot won it" in 1992 and their constant attacks on Kinnoch lead to John-Boy Major getting elected.
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Wow Doctor D..! Tell it how it is..! Now i'm not really much of a Brown fan but he really has seemed to have picked up the soggy end of a Blair mess. Not just a ridiculous war/wars but all the rest that Blair nicely side stepped when he left.. Maybe Mr Blair could have the decency to write a few letters of his own..?
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DoctorDolots: 'bye. ~ (waves)
BTW: The Murdoch (that's with an "h" not a "k") family are actually rather lovely and those I know, IMO would really do rather a good job running the country.
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The BBC has a whole has made a compete fool of itself today over the Sun's orchestrated campaign to make GB look like a heartless, incompetent idiot. You might as well sack all your researchers and editors and just read out whatever Sun prints every day. Whatever happened to editorial judgment? I heartily agree with everything DoctorDolots has to say on the subject; you seem to have lost all perception of what is important; Brown has destroyed the economy, saddled us with a lifetime of debt, and participated in unjust wars that have killed thousands, and all you can do is drone on pointlessly about whether or not he spelled someone's name correctly and what thickness of crayon he writes with. Pathetic. Would you treat anyone else with a disability in this way; I think not?
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LN 10, Me too. I also didn't need all the rubbish about the lottery winners. More Sun style journalism.
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Got a name-dropper here, I see. I met the Queen Mum once.
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Actually David, I rather liked the piece on the lottery winners and the effect of wealth on people's lives. Though I don't agree with the idea that great wealth is like being good looking, or intelligent - those are innate whereas wealth, particularly wealth won on the lottery, is not.
Didn't any of the journalists at the open press conference with Mrs. Janes think to ask her about just happening to have recording equipment at the ready when she wasn't expecting his call? Odd that.
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David, it is some small comfort to have you back. You are so wonderfully predictable.
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It's a "Drive Time" programme,after all....just like any other.
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I can't take anymore, I'm off I'll try again tomorrow, maybe there will be some News then.Bye all.
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I thought the comments about Gordon Browns eyesight balanced the emotional statements from Mrs Janes. Unpleasant but necessary report.
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#16. davmcn
Next time you spend time in the L & D let me know and I will pop in to visit.
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#17. davmcn
When my daughter was 6 she gave the Queen Mum some flowers.
Not bad since we are certainly not royalist in anyway.
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14. Lady Sue - how predictably trivial of you to point up a typo, I also typed jumpt, but you missed that. I'll hang around here just to spot yours, I said I wasn't bothering to listen the the tawdry programme. I'm so underimpressed you 'claim' to know a Murdoch, if it had been possible for you to drop in my estimations... interesting to know you think the rich choosing politicians is better than democracy, but also predictable.
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Talking about the Queen Mum I am fed up with the BBC, saying that a) she was Scottish and b) that they stayed in London during the blitz.
I am more Scottish than she was, she was born at her family's Hertfordshire estate (Bowes-Lyon at St Paul's Walden Bury) and during the Blitz that was where they spent their nights.
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Oh DoctorDolots - you've sprung back. No wonder I spotted it, in case you haven't noticed, there is a lot of media attention on the mis-spelling of names just at the moment...
Shaking in my boots that you might leap out with your red pen at any moment!
Ah, as for my 'claim' - I am Australian old chap and, as others on the blog will testify, I don't make false claims.
I've dropped in your estimations? I'll be crying into my pillow every night.
Who do you think chooses (and backs) politicians?
Oh, forgot, you aren't here anymore.
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As a devout Tory, I dislike Gordon Brown and all he stands for, however I feel that too much has been made of this letter and attempts by the Sun to make political capital out of it. Nothing more than red top sensationalism.No more please.
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27 Lady Sue
If your Murdoch friends take over none of us will be here any more ... no PM blog, no BBC, no Eddie Mair.
(are you really an australian old chap? i'd always had you down as under-30)
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Yawn... I met Philip and Diana and several far more interesting people... but so what, really? So have squillions of other people.
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Doctordolots 2 Don't give up Chuck.
I just asked the wife Shopping Moll if winning lots would buy her happiness. She said no, but it would help her look for it in more places.
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The Sun is manipulating a grief stricken mother?
This dodgy regime manipulated us via a tabloid cover '45 minute warning' lie.
You can't have it both ways Labour. Who do they think they are? Some A list celeb that can turn the media on and off as and when it suits?
I guess Bradshaw will never apologise to the BBC for the beasting he gave the Today Programme for not double sourcing the assertion by Dr. David Kelly and Andrew Gilligan that Saddam didn't have WMDs?
How many times does this government bleat on about other countries that abuse or ignore human rights citing their lack of a free press then gripe when despite the 3,000+ journalists and PR spin masters employed by the state here at the police, MoD, NHS and assorted other Civil Service outfits they can't control the news agenda?
A 'free press' is deemed important in other countries but not here? Just like democracy is more important in Afghanistan and Iraq than our right to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. It all seems very hypocritical to me!
Can we negotiate an exit strategy in Afghanistan when we can't even negotiate with other NATO allies to provide the helicopter support our troops on the ground need?
We're at war and MPs are bleating about the press and they're expenses. They don't get it.
I've got every faith in Brown, after all he doesn't think Jedward are very good, so he's alright by me.
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I know what's it's like suddenly to lose a loved one and I think, given time, Ms Janes will look back with horror at how the Sun have used her grief. What was she doing recording her phone call ? How calculating is that ?
Remember , Mr Brown didn't kill her son and even had a helicopter been able to instantly whisk him away , he was most terribly injured and may well have died anyway.She is understandably angry but I myself feel Brown is a soft target and her anger would be better directed at those stoking the fires of prejudice and intolerance in all countries.
I now feel sorry for Mr Brown , really sorry that he's had to face this barrage of misdirected blame and anger...and I'm a conservative.
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First time in the media, is it allways this childish?
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Should we feel sorry for Gordon Brown? He's been stitched up?
It's the Jo Moore lesson isn't it? 'Don't put anything in an Email you wouldn't be happy to see on the front cover of a newspaper'?
It's obvious it also applies to letters, or 'snail mail'?
I can see past any stitch up aspect, or attempts to discredit Gordon Brown as the same issues remain the same.
What are we doing there? What is our strategy? We've been there since 2001 and now we're getting some new or upgraded helicopters, and we had those 6 Chinooks rotting in that hangar at Porton Down after the mother of all procurement foul ups.
I agree on the banks. We're throwing money at them. It was obvious it was a bubble. It was entirely predictable. Brown mismanaged the economy and he's supposed to be some financial whizz kid?
I grew up in Married Quarters. This government aren't behind the military. They change Defence Ministers like I swap library books, we have Ministers overseeing several Depts. where the MoD is just one of their portfolio of responsibilities.
What can we achieve there? You can now longer convert people from whatever flavour of Islam or anti-West doctrine they adhere to then tell people not to be members of the Labour Party or stop supporting Man Utd.
We're fighting for values overseas that this government reduces and undermines by the day here? How can that be?
If Brown's been stitched up, it's been by Blair and other assorted people withing the Labour party.
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I suppose there has been plenty of talk about our "Brave Soldier" losing their lives in Iraq nad Afghanistan, sadly that is what happens when you go to war. But, there is one must; if we're going to put our men and women in harms way we "Must" make sure they have: The best equipment, the best support and the the total backing of their government and country. I'm sorry but out of the above statements i think theres only one we can really know we have at the moment..!
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I suppose there has been plenty of talk about our "Brave Soldier" losing their lives in Iraq nad Afghanistan, sadly that is what happens when you go to war. But, there is one must; If we're going to put our men and women in harms way we "Must" make sure they have: The best equipment, the best support and the total backing of their government and country. I'm sorry but, i think theres only one of the above we have at the moment..!
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LOL, is The Sun really registered as a newspaper with the Post Office?
"Cor blimey, wot ever next guv?"
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Eddie and all :
The elephant in the room is that this whole news non-story - with very great respect to Mrs Janes and family's personal loss and grief - is a massive distraction from the main news story of the week, (not to say month and year), viz. the government's course of action over planning for infrastructure projects, i.e. nuclear power generation, which was sneaked in under the doormat, as it were, provided so conveniently by the Sun. I'm amazed that you, Eddie, and the PM team have colluded in almost entirely burying one kind of bad news by another.
You've played - wittingly or not - into both the hands of Brown And His Miliband and, also, Rupert Murdoch. I'm just about to attempt to find out if Murdoch is significantly invested in Australian Uranium mining stock and associated nuclear power enterprises...
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Lucien@29: don't be silly! Of course we would still be here.
Note I said, "I am Australian old chap", not "I am an Australian old chap", old chap. Suppose you are going to argue I should have had a comma after "Australian" - my, my but everyone has their red pens out tonight.
So you can sleep: definitely Oz and definitely over 30.
ikki@36 and 37: is there even one of the three?
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I'm not sure how we compare The Sun and the Murdoch empire with the 3,000 plus former Journalists, PR and Marketing people employed by the state at the expense of the taxpayer to create news to be disseminated across the print and online media including the BBC?
How does that square with the orgy of celebration about the toppling of the Berlin Wall? If the UK is a free state why are the police DNA swabbing people for the slightest excuse and why are 1 in 78 of us having our Emails snooped on by state employees?
I am struggling to see why we should attack The Sun, given the 45 minute lie perpetrated by this dodgy regime with the connivance of the press.
The Sun are on a witch hunt? And these government weren't on a witch hunt against the BBC after Gilligan and Kelly told the truth about the sexed up dossier? Go figure!
'It's the economy stupid'? You can't fund wars if you completely fail to spot the massive bubble and fail to manage the economy?
If we're in Afghanistan with 134 allies, do none of them have helicopters that they can contribute to help our troops at the bloody end?
The threat is from Afghanistan?
What do Nicky Reilly, Houria Chahed Chentouf and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan have in common?
The threat is in Afghanistan and Pakistan or it's at a regional airport near you on a USB memory stick?
Since when was having an unhealthy interest in Jihad a British value? How much money did prosecuting Houria Chentouf cost? Couldn't that money have been better spent. How much 'terror' are we importing from Europe?
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The Euromillions 'news' was all filler?
Two serving suggestions for later in the week please Eddie, both from the Westminster Hour on Sunday evening:
1. The government haven't entirely back pedaled about the reductions on training for the TA?
I would like to know what is happening there, and given the amount of news coverage it got and Remembrance Day and Poppies can we have the truth of what is happening with the TA training?
2. The BNP are being as hyped to motivate Labour activists?
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(PS: Since listening to one of Carolyn Quinn's interviews ages ago I've had the impression that CQ is pretty emotionally pro-nuclear, so perhaps - perhaps - this frame of mind pervades the entire PM news room and that's why Miliband's nuclear bombshell has been so adroitly muffled ? )
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Lady Sue. I did say i think..! Maybe its me being naive..? But i'd like to imagine that no matter what the reasons were behind us going to war, our government and country would back the Armed Forces 100%. Their job is hard enough as it is, i would hate to think that our men and women had the added pressure of wondering if we as a nation backing them fully...
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Does this government support the military?
They've tried getting the Country behind the conflict in Afghanistan and the very people that do believe and are prepared to contribute, those in the TA have their training cut due to financial constraints?
So the war isn't about hearts and minds, and making the streets of Britain safer it's about pounds, shillings and pence.
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Well, if not the government at the "Very" least our country should be behind the Armed Forces..! Even if you don't believe in why their there, believe in them..!
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Ikki (46).
Well said!
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We've been in there since 2001? How many Remembrance Days have we had while we've been in Afghanistan where we've commemorated our war dead whilst there's not been enough helicopters to go round in Afghanistan?
We've signed up to the Lisbon Treaty without a vote, and yet none of the other nations supposedly in Afghanistan besides us had the helicopters that could have reduced the toll on those serving in our military and helped whatever the objective is we're trying to achieve there?
They're fighting to save, protect great British values? What are they? Councils snooping on parents about where they live, micro chips in rubbish bins, the automatic prosecution of motorists by cameras creating £millions for the Treasury while 40,000 people that commit assault, ABH and rape get cautions?
I don't see the great society, or values at home that we're fighting to protect. Where's democracy in action here? Labour hardly had a massive mandate from the electorate and Gordon just signed us up to the Lisbon Treaty without us having a say on it.
When we can't run our country and Labour erodes the rights and freedoms of the public by the day why do we think we can run Afghanistan?
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Aren't our military a well tuned car that's being driven into the ground and not serviced properly? Our great military and it's heritage are being squandered on some endeavour that can't be won by military intervention?
We're going to follow it over the border into Pakistan?
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Lepus, LN49. If our Army, Air Force and even the Royal Navy end up in Pakistan or where ever, i for one be behind our men and women 100%. Maybe not the reason why their there but the men and women themselves.
If i don't agree with why their there then i will use the freedom that many take for granted and i'll put a tick in a different box come the election..
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Used to like PM but you now seem to be some sort of apologist for anyone against the government The Sun has made a total fool out of this poor lady who has lost her son in war ...how dare they misuse her total grief in aid of their tawdry political aims and how dare you as a supposedly professional journalist promote their aims on your programme ..In this instance the best approach would have been for the BBC to support our country and our soldiers and leave the Aussie to promote his own agenda
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bright-eyedwendym (5) - Please take some medication and come back to us when you are more lucid.
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I think PM (that's the programme not the Prime Minister) did a little bit to restore the imbalance of the BBC on the Sun/soldier death/illegal recording on today's program. But not nearly enough.
Is the Sun and Murdoch too big for the BBC to take on? Where on PM was the challenge to the Sun on its actions on this story?
Pretty pathetic really. And that pains me, as I quite like this programme.
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#53. Preston Firmlie
Don't be silly, BBC news staff have to think of their futures. They daren't upset Murdoch because after Shamron becomes PM they will need to re-apply for their jobs because the BBC will be privatised and become part of Sky television.
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When Shamron gets in what happens to the 3,000 plus 'Press Officers' on the taxpayer payroll providing news from the MoD, police and NHS? Will they also be privatised?
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I was certainly surprised to hear E.M. suggest that comment on the handwriting story was evenly balanced. I have not seen the mails but I know what I have seen here.
It's sad to find that this "interactive" idea is insubstantial and that PM neither wishes to reflect the concerns of listeners or engage in investigative reporting.
It's probably a waste of time then - I have no need of a social club.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
ikki@44: I take your point but it is a very difficult call - can it be split? The brave young men and women in the armed forces are carrying out their jobs, I'm sure to the best of their ability but IMO the armed forces should not be in Afghanistan and should not have invaded Iraq. I'm sure I'm not alone in despairing whenever I hear a report of another soldier being killed - it is the most appalling tragedy.
I note yours@50 and am mindful of a quote used quite recently on an earlier blog thread:
"Lions led by donkeys."
I agree to some extent with Preston@53 over the reporting on this issue. It slightly redressed the balance but perhaps did not go far enough. 'The Sun' should have been challenged over its actions and Mrs. Janes questioned about how it was she had recording equipment ready and was prepared to share a private conversation with the media - but this would have been a minefield, under the circumstances of her bereavement.
So now there is a dilemma for the PM (programme not minister) team: do they drop the story now, or investigate further? "Damned if they do... "?
Ln@54: I do not agree with you re. the "news staff" not upsetting Murdoch - that is a slight on their integrity as journalists and I think it uncalled for.
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Retain the DNA of innocents for six years? What's wrong with the Scottish system? How come the English and Welsh are to have a lesser system than the Scottish?
We're fighting in Afghanistan for nonsense like this:
http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/home/2009/10/fireman-successfully-campaigns-to-have-dna-taken-off-database-.html
Our forefathers fought two world wars for nonsense like that?
20 years since the Berlin Wall came down, and in that time New Labour instigated their own facsimile of the police state here?
Well worth fighting and dying for eh?
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'A firefighter from Worcester has successfully invoked a European Court of Human Rights ruling that prohibits the police from retaining the DNA and fingerprints of people suspected but not convicted of offences, and had his DNA removed from the police database.'
'Mathew Repton was on duty for Hereford and Worcester Fire and Rescue Service last December, when he was called out to a car accident on the M5. In line with the Service’s procedures, Mr Repton parked the fire engine at a 45 degree angle to block the crash site.'
Eddie sorry for another serving suggestion, can you get Mathew Repton on and assorted ACPO talking heads and the Home Secretary to explain why the English and the Welsh can't have the same system as the Scottish?
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Lady Sue (59) You may not have seen it, but Paxo questioned Mrs. Janes last night, albeit briefly, and clearly he was treading on eggshells (which was the first time I've ever seen him behaving with such restraint, so interesting from that point alone). He did ask her, without pressing her, what made her think of recording the call. Her reply was that, because she is under sedation, a friend suggested she did this. Now, that was her reply and I suppose we have to accept her answer, but I did think that, for somebody under sedation, she seemed pretty alert in the exchanges with the PM. And I fail to see how that justifies her sharing it with the Sun, and thereby with the nation.
As it happens, it would appear that an own goal was scored by the Sun, but I think somebody should be prepared to put to it - and thereby to her - the whole issue of the legality of what they did as it is not being highlighted anwhere other than in blog discussions. Unless the issue is brought out into the open, people will think they can do this, sell tapes to the newspapers, and not be challenged. Incidentally, I am not suggesting, in this case, that Mrs. Janes sold her tape, though I do gather the Sun is making an undisclosed contribution to a charity.
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Hang on a second - this is Tuesday's Glass Box - why doesn't it say so?
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Sid 63, It does.
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Ln 23, 24, You bet... I've also met three Archbishops, and that doesn't include when I met Desmond Tutu. The Queen Mum was carrying her pink plastic umbrella when I met her. Had tea with the Bishop of Winchester once, as well. That was after I dug a trench in the choir of the Cathedral for new lighting. I was looking for anything of archaeological interest. He wasn't carrying a pink plastic umbrella.
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FO 30, I missed the chance to meet Di when she was helping to dedicate a new window in the Cathedral here because we were in France. I won't get that chance again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
D McN - on my screen it just says The PM Glass Box. Do you pay extra to get the day added?
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#68 Sid
I don't know what it says at the top of your page.
However, at the top of mine it says: 17:00 UK time, Tuesday, 10 November 2009
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#67. lucien_desgai
I thought it would be modded, but what a great memory.
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Big Sis@62: I didn't see it, thanks for flagging it up. Do agree with your comment about further investigation on this.
Re. the taping equipment - I've remembered this morning that, when I lived in England, I had a fax/answer machine on which I could tape conversations. It is possible she had one of these and just possible that her neighbour was there consoling her and suggested that, as it was an important call, she tape it. Still doesn't answer the question about her motives behind sharing the private taped call with 'The Sun' and therefore the general public.
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Ln 69, Mine says that as well.
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Looternite and D McN: In the box at the bottom of my screen are two 'PM Glass Box' links. Neither of them indicates which day they were posted.
There are three 'AM Glass Boxes' none of them ditto.
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70 Ln
Maybe a few more asterisks next time!
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Sid 73, You should have specified bottom or top earlier. If I go to the bottom, I judge by the number of posts.
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Helter Skelter!
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Those wanting to read/post on the current AM or PM threads, go to the main PM page where each thread clearly displays the date.
Those wanting to see where the latest posts have been made, go to 'Topical posts on this blog.' Quite simple.
Those minded to spoil the 'Topical posts' facility for others, go to Archives or Categories and make a meaningless post.
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R_SM 77, You're just trying to confuse Sid.
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#78 davmcn,
That doesn't need any effort on my part.
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Ah - how lovely to see Waldorf and Statler back together!
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I see Waldorf and Statler are in good form!
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Sid - Did you see Question Time the other week when Natalie Haynes told Kilroy Silk that he was like one of the Muppets? The comment really got to him. It only shut him up for about 5 seconds but the embarrassed look on his face was almost worth the entire licence fee.
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PF -yes indeed!
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Sid 81, Waldorf salad and Statler hotel?
PF 82, I was in the hospital. Maybe iPlayer.
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