Jay Winter's essay, "War Wounds".
You can read more about Jay Winter here.
"In the ranks of the men who served in the Great War, the men who collectively constituted the Lost Generation, there were many who had lost their limbs, their eyes, their minds. Others were less severely wounded, but still woke up every morning for years after the war accompanied by painful reminders of their injuries.
Some war wounds healed by themselves, by the intervention of time and only time; others healed by the tireless intervention of people, of doctors, nurses, health workers, and above all, by the care-giving of family members. The novelist Pat Barker has said that women in countless families were and are the unsung healers of the wounded of war, and thereby came to join their ranks. Remembering the war requires us to honor these, the wounded, and these, the healers.
But doing so requires us, I believe, to ask some difficult questions about who we are, at this distance of nearly a century from the outbreak of the war. What do we see when we face those wounded in war? It is an essential moral act to look at them, to see what war does to the frail human body. If we turn away completely, we are hardly human; but honesty requires us to admit that if we don't feel the impulse to turn away, we are not human at all. How do we look at the suffering of others? That is the question, following the late critic Susan Sontag, I want to put to you today. In the wake of the wars in Iraq and in Afghanistan, this question is as poignant today as it was 91 years ago at the end of the Great War.
Most of us have little training in helping the disabled. Where do we look when we see their limbless clothes? This is a question millions of women and children had to face when their men returned home disabled from war after 1914.
Although no one knew it at the time, the Great War opened a new era in the history of disability, and of our understanding of who the disabled are. In a sense, the Great War was the biggest industrial accident in history, but one which went so far beyond previous disasters that it changed the framework of compensation and treatment for such injuries. The practices of orthopedic medicine and of rehabilitation medicine were transformed by the war; other branches of medical care - neurology, psychiatry, surgery -- were similarly affected. The next time you visit the dentist, have a thought about the fact that novocaine was an innovation of the Great War.
Healers did what they could for the war wounded, even before they were drawn in to the bureaucracy surrounding compensation for war-related injury. Anyone seeking a pension for disability required medical authorization of the claim. This brought bureaucrats and physicians in contact in ways and to a degree that had not happened before, and has never ceased to happen since. Here we can see how the treatment of those damaged by war between 1914 and 1918 constituted a step on the way to the National Health Service.
This brings us to a second unanticipated consequence of the war. The armies of the wounded - and there were over two million men wounded on active service in the Great War - deserved both the respect and the support of the population for whom they had fought. And yet it was not at all clear whether the treatment and compensation men received for war-related disability was a matter of charity, of grace and favour, or a matter of rights. In some countries, disabled men had rights; in others they had access to minimal care and a pittance of a pension, and were able to resume their lives thanks to the efforts of private charities like the Royal British Legion. The notion that wounded men have a right to care was universally accepted in principle; but in practice, the treatment they received varied hugely from country to country. Ironically enough, one of the most striking instances of veterans' medical care as an established right was in the United States, where the Veterans' Administration has practiced socialized medicine for generations, a fact that still eludes a surprisingly large number of Americans in their current preoccupation with the right to health care.
The right to care, over both the short-term and the long-term, was recognized in principle during the Great War. And yet the differences between how combatant countries faced that fact were substantial. Here is where medical history and the history of veterans' movements and institutions come together. Let me give you just one instance. In the period of the Great War in Britain, it was the injured soldier who had to prove that his injury was war-related; in France, it was the state which had to prove that the injury was not war-related. The burden of proof was on the individual in one country and on the state in another. I account for this distinction by referring to the relative power and influence of veterans' associations in different places. In Britain the British Legion and other veterans' groups were initially conservative in character, and imbedded in the Protestant voluntary tradition, in which private associations and not the state provided care and support. In France, veterans' associations were more combative and assertive; they were imbedded in the Jacobin and Republican tradition of an armed citizenry; in France treatment for war-related disability was a right. The wounded man got the benefit of the doubt when there was doubt as to whether his condition was an outcome of his active service in wartime. In Britain, it was much harder for a disabled man to establish his case that his condition was war-related. In the inter-war years, under conditions of austerity, pensions committees denied thousands of veterans' claims.
The same problem faced some war widows. Private Arnold Loosemore, a Sheffield man, won the Victoria Cross for conspicuous bravery during combat in the Ypres salient in August 1917. A year later, he was severely wounded and had to have a leg amputated. He returned to England, married his childhood sweetheart in 1920. The Sheffield Rotary Club provided the couple with a bungalow and a pony. Loosemore died at the age of 27 in 1924, six years after the Armistice. When his widow, who was left with a three-year old son, applied for a pension, she found out that she was ineligible. The reasoning of the Ministry of Pensions was that if she had married Loosemore in 1914, she would have been entitled to a pension. But she married him after he was wounded, and thereby entered into a marital contract with a damaged man, in full knowledge of the status of his health. Furthermore, she married him after his discharge from the army. Here there wasn't even a doubt about the cause of his death; but the state acted in such a way as to reduce the costs of caring for those bearing the wounds of war and for their families. To add insult to injury, when he was given a funeral by the town, the bill was apparently sent to the widow by the Council.
In France, things worked differently; such a case would have been treated as the scandal that indeed it was. The reason was that veterans had substantial political clout and used it to stop bureaucrats from making stupid and insensitive decisions.
This story was repeated all over the world. Everywhere, there was a shifting landscape of entitlements, reflecting the determination and political will of veterans and veterans' groups to press their case. To be sure, even when entitlements were recognized in a liberal manner, whatever the level of reparation provided by the state, it never fully compensated for the suffering and hardship the war wounded and their families endured.
This negotiation over what constitutes a war-related condition or injury, and how to compensate the men and women who bore them. continued throughout the twentieth century. It is with us still. In Vietnam, many veterans were exposed to toxic chemicals - defoliants such as Agent Orange. Did vets who developed cancer in later years suffer from the long-term effects of such exposure? The argument about this is still going on, in particular in Australia.
Then there is the question of what constitutes a war-related psychological disability. Here the shadow of the Great War is particularly deep. In 1915, the British psychiatrist Charles Myers introduced the term 'shell shock' to describe a set of disabling injuries suffered by men at the front. He later regretted using this term, since thousands of men with similar symptoms were stationed well out of the range of the guns. But once put into the vernacular, the term took on a life of its own.
The term 'shell shock' became a commonplace, and a brilliant one it is. It escaped from the realm of medical care and has become iconic. The reason is that the term 'shell shock' tells us a lot about the war. Most casualties in the Great War were inflicted by artillery shells; there were tens of millions of shells fired in the war. The scale of the suffering and human costs of the war produced the shock. Hence shell shock was a term which captured something everyone knew about the war. The term suited a conflict which transformed the meaning of battle, of courage, of war itself.
But the evocative character of 'shell shock' -- this two word encapsulation of the war - still left doctors in a predicament. How could they distinguish between men who had psychological injuries arising directly from their service on the Western front from shirkers and malingerers simply trying to save their skins? The answer is that they couldn't easily make this distinction. And even when they did determine that a man was suffering from 'shell shock', they were puzzled about how to heal his wounds, which were rarely physical ones. Some doctors tried electric shock treatment to restore movement to paralysed limbs; to make the mute speak again; to return these physically sound men as quickly as possible to their units and to the war. Others tried rest and occupational rehabilitation, in domestic settings or on farms. Still others tried psychotherapy, the 'talking cure' as one of the most remarkable physicians of the time, W.H.R. Rivers, termed it during the war.
No one knew what worked, and many physicians remained entirely skeptical about whether such men were simply acting. It is important, though, to remember that the condition was not new; what was original was the diagnosis. There had been similar psychological wounds in the American civil war. Some were termed, again evocatively, 'soldiers' heart'. Later on, during and after the Second World War, 'combat fatigue' became the term of art. Then post-Vietnam doctors validated the current usage 'post-traumatic stress disorder' -- PTSD.
What happened was that a term initially limited in 1915 to those under artillery fire was extended to all those in combat 30 years later during the Second World War. After another 30 year interval, the term physicians and administrators used - post-traumatic stress disorder - was not limited to men in uniform, but to many others afflicted by persecution, cruelty, and violence. Holocaust survivors are among them; so are the hibakusha, the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The history of 'shell shock' is therefore the story of the widening of concentric circles of victims of war. Now the term PTSD extends to the domestic sphere. It has become universal. But it is important to recall the original setting of this category of psychological injury, the setting of the Great War. It took most of a century before the shame and stigma attached to mental illness were sufficiently reduced to enable societies to recognize the fact - the unalterably simple fact - that ordinary, healthy men break down in war. Through no fault of their own, and at the call of the state, they go into the shadows, shadows which stretch long into what we call the post-war world.
By the end of the twentieth century, the medical profession recognized post-traumatic stress disorder as a medical syndrome, with causes, and treatment, and legitimacy as a category of war-related injury. Even then, the veterans of Vietnam were not always well treated for these disorders; but because of their struggles, today's soldiers have a better chance at receiving what is their right. The history of shell shock is in part the history for the search and struggle for veterans' rights, for natural justice for the disabled and the disfigured.
Each time a man or woman in uniform returns from Iraq or Afghanistan, spare a moment or two to think about him or her as joining this long line of soldiers and sailors and airmen who have borne the wounds of war. If we do spend this bit of time in reflection, we can see that those who return home from war always deserve the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of our compassion for the road so many of the injured will follow in years to come."
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Yes, very nice but far too long for radio. We could have read it ourselves and just had him reading a few select 'snippets'.
Without wishing to cause any offense, this was worse than the weather "before".
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Excellent!
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Same problem as before when Prof Winter was on BH - worthy but far too long and badly delivered
Out of place on PM; better if broadcast in its own mid evening slot
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Once a year, I totally agree we can stop and pause - the tone and timbre of this essay was brilliant.
Its length will prompt many of us to reflect.
And maybe seek out a way to listen again.
nick
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Thanks indeed for a very moving essay.
This is radio at its best
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My grandfather served from 1915 - 1918 in the 172nd Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers. He was a sapper who laid the big mines under the enemy trenches that left craters you can still see today. He was gassed three times. He was underground most of the time, breathing the noxious gasses from the high explosive, fighting, digging and working.
He came home in 1919 and my dad said he just sat in a chair, saying nothing, for three years until he died. His death certificate says "Tuberculosis" but it was obviously due to the state of his lungs from his war service. Because he died in 1922 his wife was not entitled to a war pension, so my dad went to school in charity boots, and had to leave school at 15 and get to work.
I really associated with this article - the first time I've ever heard anyone speak about the officious way the pen pushers treated the families of soldiers after the war.
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Excellent essay.
A good way to mark Remembrance Sunday is to give a donation to Combat Stress which helps to heal war wounds of the mind including PTSD, a living hell.
http://www.combatstress.org.uk
I find it's a support position anyone can take, regardless of their position on a particuloar war or war in general.
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I'm so glad that Lady Sue and terrytronix agree with my thoughts. I initially thought it was going to be around 1-2 mins - bit like a Jerry Springer thought at the end of his show - but I lost the thread even more than I do in the radio weather forecast. Can we have a heavily edited armistice day episode ..PLEASE?
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Thank you for this, a subject which well deserves mor than the usual brief sound-bight commentary. My father had a 'bad war' (which included the siege of Monte Casino), from which he never recovered. The bright 19-year old who had gone to war 1939 died at the age of 46, a broken man, penniless, prematurely aged, eaten away by clinical depression. Like the many, many other 'walking wounded' ex-combatants, he received no help whatsoever. Their shadow certainly falls heavily across the lives of their children, and the making of post-war Britain.
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I enjoyed this essay. The story of Private Loosemore's widow is heartbreaking. I recall someone on the radio recently who said that the number of marriages after the First World War increased in part because many unmarried partners of servicemen could not claim pensions after they were killed.
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Meritorious!
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Seems there are some here who suffer Attention Deficit Disorder Syndrome?
;-{
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Excellent and thought provoking piece. This is a complex subject that is hard to talk about and to listen to, but it was great to hear it dealt with properly and at more than usual length - surely it's a more than usually important topic especially at the moment. How is it that in the Uk we rate rehabilitation after illness and injury as so much less imprtant than our European neighbours, and feel so suspicious about disabled people? Beveridge founded the NHS to provide diagnosis, treatment and rehabilitation but although we were one of the first countries to think of this, we have tended to lag behind in providing the rehabilitation component. Why is this?
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Far too long for radio? What were they saying just today about Seseme Street? It started out as advert size bits (30 secs?) and they then adjusted realising children would pay attention to stuff that grabbed their (the viewers) attention.
I was saying on this site a few days back - some things need time and this was a perfect example. Wednesday too? This length perhaps? Fine.
It lasted just as long as it needed to and then stopped. Thank you PM and Mr Winter. I have booked marked it for further study.
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Brilliant!
Anything that makes us stop and remember is worth it.
Both of my grandfathers suffered from in the 14 - 18 conflict. One was gassed, but survived only to suffer poor health untill his death. The other was a victim of 'shell shock' that left him a shade of his former self according to my granmother.
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Jay winter's essay was excellent and interesting; just the sort of item I hope to hear on Radio 4. It was certainly not too long. I shall listen to his second essay.
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If I may... by comparison, listening to extracts from the letter of 19-year-old Cyrus Thatcher being read out on BH, and his very brave mother's comments, had me in tears. No ADDS there!
I would love to hear this young lad's letter read in its entirety. It is mature and wise beyond his 19 years. Despite his support of the army and his entreaties to his parents not to hate it and claims that it was "the making of" him, it is the most moving reason to condemn this war I've heard to date.
Wonderful young, so very young, sensitive, intelligent lads like this are being mown down senselessly. Daily. It's time to stop it.
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Thank you for adding this to the programme. I enjoyed it - and learned a few things, too.
I'm looking forward to hearing the second essay, and hope it is at least as long and challenging.
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Well I thought that the piece was poignant and just what we need to hear at this time of year and with currently our brave soldiers risking their lives.
My maternal grandfather spent the whole WW1 in the artillery and he became deaf in one ear. He had nightmares until he died in 1932 of pneumonia. When his medals came, he put them in a drawer and never looked at them again.
If we cannot sit down, be quiet, and listen for just a few minutes then how can we expect our kids to do the same.
I am sick and tired of edited highlights and welcome more of the same.
Let’s remember those who fell and those who returned and give them our gratitude for the what we have.
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Dear all, Thank you for your thoughtful comments, which uncannily mirrored the debate the production team had tonight in the real 'glass box'. Very interested in the too long/ just right debate- please keep your thoughts coming and thank you, whichever side of the debate you're on, for your thoughtful engagement- I want PM to give food for thought, and I want us to try new things, some of which will work, some of which won't. Enjoy the weekend. Jo
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I was out and missed the item, so all I can say is that I'm glad to have read the text. The historical perspective is so important to those of us lucky enough to have been born after WWII.
I remember as a girl visiting Paris and seeing those notices in the metro by seats for the 'mutiles de la guerre' (can't do an acute accent) and thinking 'but that was history!' But I was a child then and 'The War' was unthinkably long ago. Now I realise how its shadow still hangs over so many, even 70 years after it began.
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Frances, you were lucky only to have read the text. Trust me, do a 'Listen Again' and you may feel differently. I would be very interested to know how, by comparison, you feel if you do. Start at the beginning of the whole PM, no cheating now!
Ln, Sprouty and others: I get really fed up with "my grandfather" did this "my first cousin's mother's uncle did that" - no disrespect it isn't a competition and, forgive my being so direct, but all of that is history.
The salient point is that young lads and lasses are being killed in this stupid, senseless war today, tomorrow, every day and will continue to be killed until folk stand up and demand a stop to it.
Obama is clearly wobbling, quite rightly. Time to get the troops out before there are any more needless deaths.
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Thank you Jay Winter for a very thoughtful and thought provoking essay.
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I listened to this on Radio tonight and have to say WELL DONE Mr Winter you got it right, it was not too long for me as i have been saying this since I was 8yrs old, I am now 53.
My Father was a POW in Nagasaki for 3yrs and was a physical and mental mess all of my life, He died in 1972 when I was 18, I hate the MOD, I hate the British Government, No one ever caqme around to see my Father from anywhere that I can remember, He was one of a handfull of Westerners that witnessed the A bomb from the ground and was exposed to the blast as the POW camp was partially destroyed by the blast. After He died they told my Mother at an inquest that his death was not from the war. Gt Britain is the worst for looking after its servicemen, a disgrace. I would not wear a poppy as it is only a symbolic gesture so everyone can go around for one day or week of the year and not feel guilty. I remember my Dad all of the time and feel for those others who alos come up against the terrible treatment that our country gives to its heroes. On Armistice day my dad would go out in the car and disappear all day...He hated it. His medals meant nothing to him and kept them in a Jam jar on the top shelf of the larder at home.
He said the Navy threw him on the scrapheap. As he wanted a career in the Navy, and his discharge papers amounted to a piece of note paper torn off from a pad, I still have them. So do not talk to me about War and what happens after, I have seen it all. do you know what it was like to live with my Father in his state?...sheer hell. When he relived the beatings, torture, starvation, and almost worked to death, and saw all his mates die, and wondered why he survived. the screaming nightmares, the mood swings, depression, the digestion disorders from being starved. Poppy day? you can keep it.
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@22 Lady Sue
That wasn't the right tone. I really hope you didn't mean to come across like that - death in families, or of loved ones, are so hard to come to terms with sometimes. When folk tell their own family histories after an item has churned up some buried memory, who are you or I to censor them?
Let everyone comment who wants to - each memory is precious, each life is valued and all posts should be welcome.
nick
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#25. nikki noodle
Thanks.
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Nikki, I think Lady Sue was referring to the length of the item on a programme such as PM.
I value JotheEditrice feedback as the Editor but PM is a Drivetime programme where thousands of people will be tuning in and out by the minute and it was just too long - infact far too long!
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A moving and extremley informative piece. I felt the time it took was about right and the short time it did take focussed my mind on what 'rememberance'is about. We should all take a little more time to understand, contribute and more importantly spend time understanding as to why so much sacrifice was and continues to be made by others.
The manner in which our politicians act today is so similar to the arrogance and excuses that were displayed to Private Loosemore's window. Not a lot appears to have changed and I just mention 'Gurka's'
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Mmmm that was eleven minutes long though! - in a drivetime programme.
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"Ln, Sprouty and others: I get really fed up with "my grandfather" did this "my first cousin's mother's uncle did that" - no disrespect it isn't a competition and, forgive my being so direct, but all of that is history."
Lady Sue, being direct can be a good thing, as is being considerate of other people's feelings when they're showing empathy about family stories of damaged soldiers. That's not competing, that's saying "yeah I know what it's like because our family went through the same thing".
And history is important whether it's about 7 decades ago or 7 minutes ago because it makes us who we are in this minute.
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Milady,
On this I agree heartily, but I also agree with allowing family stories.
If folk want a bog-standard drive time infotainment format, there's plenty of choice on the airwaves. Well judged, says I, and thanks for the transcript too.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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An amazing piece - so thoughtful and, for me, really hit the button in terms of the lasting impact of war upon those soldiers who survive it. Jay Wilson's knowledge, so lightly borne, has provided me with insights that go well beyond the issue of the war-wounded. So many of our forefathers, those lucky enough to survive WW1, returned to their homes severely damaged. The impact of that was felt by the next generation, through the grim silences, sudden bursts of temper, fractured marriages.
It is good to be reminded of these things, if only to try to prevent them from happening again and to understand our current generation of returning soldiers.
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Indeed Treehouse above:-)
From an editorial viewpoint it was still far too long, especially for Drivetime -
I'm almost anticipating a feedback post looming!
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I cross posted before Big Sister's response but my critisism is merely directed towards the production team as to the length of the item on PM. Eleven minutes was too long - perhaps as a Q&A with Eddie it would have been better?
The delivery was poor - and after playing it back on listen again to some friends earlier they all agreed, -- each to their own. I for one will be tuning out for the next Essay and do a listen again with the fast forward button.
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Jonnie: hear hear! My criticism also "directed towards production team and length of item".
Big Sis: perchance you listened in a quiet, contemplative moment and not in "real" time?
Lord N: I hope I did not give the impression I was against "allowing family stories".
Tallulah: there is a difference between listening and respecting some family history or other and someone wanting two mins of fame by association which starts, eg. "my mother's grandfather's sister's aunt..."
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Re: Lady Sue - I've just chatted to Lord Nathan on our usual medium - and he 'IS' actually in agreement as to the length ot the item being too long.
BigSister is quite correct in the context but .. and I don't want to commit Editrice or Amanda or whoever was in charge tonight but!!
Sonyawardsdownthedrain.com comes to mind ;-)
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I hope you'll podcast or tune in to this morning's iPM which has some terrific listener letters from war.
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Thanks for your link to the iPM this morning Eddie. I have listened and can recommend it - one of the best and most thought-provoking iPMs I've heard.
nikki@25: apologies if I've upset anyone. It comes from wanting to focus attention on what is happening now, which we can do something about if everyone starts to put pressure on the government.
Tallulah@30 para 2: just re-read this and accept that I may have been a little hasty in my previous. I can see where you (and others) are coming from about family stories being told after, as nikki says, a "memory is churned up" and that, in these instances, it wasn't a case of wanting "fame by association". Eating humble pie.
jonnie and others: I would far prefer to see the text and be able to think about it than hear someone, who is not a trained broadcaster or actor, read out such a long piece. I'm not saying the content was not interesting - it was - but the importance of it (like the weather) got lost in the monotony of the long delivery. IMHO: A few chosen extracts would have had more impact.
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Lady Sue, I listened in real time - I was getting dressed ready to go out, so happened to be alone. It was probably best listened to in that way, although it might have been interesting to have been in the company of people of different generations to hear their reactions at the time.
I do not think that, on occasions such as these, there is a problem with having longer items. It was longer than the usual items on PM, but then it was an unusual item, and its length provided Mr. Winter with the opportunity to expand the points sufficiently for their impact to be felt.
It's only an opinion, but it is my opinion. I have no problem with others disagreeing.
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Re: BigSister - Where on earth were you off to at that hour in the morning? I hope it wasn't a production job at the beeb ;-) - yes of course you are entitled to an opinion and I respect the fact that many listeners would have enjoyed the essay.
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Regarding the matter of people recountin family stories here and elsewhere, I do think these are relevant. They are like the pieces of a patchwork, which when combined provide something more substantial and which is of interest to others. A couple of weeks ago, my stepgrandson, aged 8, was quizzing both my husband and myself about what our forefathers had done in the various wars. He is studying it at school, and he clearly finds the personal stories interesting as he tries to understand something that he is being taught.
When I told him about my grandfather, who joined up in 1914 and, with only a few months away from the lines due to injury, fought in France throughout the War, he already knew enough about that War to know that this was a significant time in my grandfather's life. He then asked me how my grandfather felt about the War, and I was able to tell him that he never spoke about it but that, according to my grandmother, he returned a very different man - and not for the better.
Mr. Winter's piece therefore has strong resonances for me, as it clearly has had for others here, but the point I'm trying to make now is that these matters do interest the current youngest generation. I was staggered at how much an 8 year old already knew about WW1 and at how much more he wanted to know. A bit humbling, really.
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Jonnie, I was referring to last night's PM. We were off to a cricket dinner, which was quite fun, especially as there were only three other women there and the guest speaker was David English, replete with good, but rather dirty, jokes. ;)
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BigSister, Ahh that all makes sense to me now and very interesting to read about the interest your stepgrandson is taking in the war. My Neice (9) is equally interested and on our recent visit to Holland wanted to know all the details about Anne Frank and the why's and wheres.
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42 BigSis
Is that jonnie's brother?
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Jonnie is slightly putting words in my mouth.
I did admit that I had wandered a bit before the end, but I blame that more on my tendency to be trying to do more than one thing at a time, and thus count it more my failure than an editing/production error.
This prompts the question as to whether we 'moderns' are generally too 'busy' a great of the time, and whether it is the business of editors/producers to cater to that at the expense of substantive item such as the essay in question.
I'm rather firmly of the opinion that it's our business to see to it that we polish our own attentive abilities, even if this means slowing down to smell the flowers....
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon,
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers,
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not. -Great God! I'd rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;"
--- William Wordsworth
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I don't believe Lady_Sue that you meant to mean what it appears by your statement "Ln, Sprouty and others: I get really fed up with "my grandfather" did this "my first cousin's mother's uncle did that" - no disrespect it isn't a competition and, forgive my being so direct, but all of that is history."
Yes, it is History it's my family history and they were part of this countries history.
I will tell you this, not only did my grandfather put his life on the line but also my great uncles, then it was the turn of my father and my uncles. They each saw action and because they were prepared to fight, that is why we can carry out this discussion.
I will not forget the sacrifice those previous generations made and I admire the guts of the men who stood in the front lines and showed unbelievable courage. They were part of history and they made history.
For once a year let's look back at those men/women who made the difference and respect them.
Some of us here in the UK, paying for the BBC have the right to hear their stories and to add our family stories otherwise they will slip out of our island story forgotten.
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Ln: you are right - what I meant did not come across very well at all, see my 38.
I've no argument against remembering those who fought and those who died. I also have a long line of family who were involved in both wars and in Vietnam. The point I was trying to make, very badly, was that we can't change history but we do have a chance to change what is happening now.
BTW: I contributed to the BBC when I lived (on and off) in England for 25 years, hopefully there is some left in the beeb piggy bank to allow me to partake! :)
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Lady_Sue, Big Sis and others:
Surely the point of hearing the endless tales of soldiers' deaths and injuries is that it's very much *not* past history; millions have died in these wars back to the furthest reaches of living memory and tragically we learn nothing and still send our young men and now women to die, often for trivial reasons like politics, or religion or for a few inches of land.
All those stories we've been hearing on PM and iPM that have been cut short or changed beyond imagining because of war have so much in common whether they're told from a WW1 trench or a LandRover in Afghanistan and *that* is the point.
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SSC: I rather thought I was implying that by my comments - I certainly agree with you. I don't believe in living in the past, I do believe in learning from the past. I think the stories from the past should be kept alive for that reason. I'm a bit puzzled that you seem to think that I implied otherwise.
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SSC: See my 32, which I think does make that point.
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TSSCat: "tragically we learn nothing and still send our young men and now women to die, often for trivial reasons like politics, or religion or for a few inches of land." Agree entirely and with Big Sis when she says "I do believe in learning from the past" but I would like, having looked at history and hopefully learned something, to look at what we can do now.
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Big Sis (49):
No, no, I wasn't implying that, just the reverse, that's why I ref'ed you at the top. Sorry, I'm a numpty.
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I did not hear this broadcast but read it, and that gave me a better apprecation of what a fine piece of writting it is, scholarly and beautifully articulate. Thank you for bringing much needed exposure to this subject. We have come a long way since The Great War, and we must never forget the shaby treatment of our wounded servicemen and their families. On PTSD there is so much more to understand and this helps to keep in current discussion. This is the BBC at its best.
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A friend was visiting recently, who had been in the army & spent time in Iraq & Afghanistan. Re the Jimmy Carr joke about the war wounded, his perspective was, that the wounded/ amputees had already had the worst thing possible happen to them, in terms of their injuries. He didn't think any of them would be the least bit upset that a comedian was then making a joke about it. But found it rather blackly humorous that that was what upset the great British Public and the Daily Wail. The joke, not the injury.
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Too long for what?
The right length?
True, a little concentration needed and a little of our time.
But so what?
Not much to ask, I'd have thought.
mxx
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On the 11th hour of the 11th day in the 11th month, I will remember them. My mates that copped it, my father, who as Bevan boy did his best and to my grandfathers that fought bravely in 14 - 18.
Jones - Sgt - G80xxxxx
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SG - likewise.
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Thought the essay was highly relevant - a good link between the past and the present with so many soldiers suffering disablement in the current conflict - worth reminding us about how attitudes should and do change. Timing was fine, what's wrong with being asked to concentrate for 6 mins? Adios
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Molly and alf1 - as jonnie@29 says it was "eleven minutes long".
That's a l - o - n - g time on radio.
What's wrong with asking people to concentrate now?
Without wishing to upset anyone, while it is terrific that everyone remembers today or on 11/11, shouldn't we be remembering what happened all the time? Obviously not possible to do so with the same nationwide/international intensity - it is good to have a date/time for doing so - but to stop the senseless slaughter being repeated?
Especially after hearing another two young lads killed today, shouldn't we be putting as much pressure on the government as we can to stop this war as soon as possible?
All in favour...
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Sorry, Lady Sue and Jonnie, if you scroll back (as I've just done) the odds are very much against you. From my quick reckoning there were 21 people in favour and three against (including you both). Your opinions are, of course, equally valid - but, on this occasion, you're outvoted.
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Key U.S. official in Afghanistan, Matthew Hoh, resigned in protest over U.S. policy last month. Story in Washington Post.
Matthew Hoh said, "I believe that the people we are fighting there are fighting us because we are occupying them -- not for any ideological reasons, not because of any links to al Qaeda, not because of any fundamental hatred toward the West. The only reason they're fighting us is because we are occupying them."
His revealing four page resignation letter to Ambassador Powell.
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Mathew Hoh got it right in my view..they tried very hard to change his mind. Al Qaeda can plot and train anywhere and are doing so. The idea that we will stop this by occupying Afghanistan is sheer self delusion.
Now the horrifying Gordon Brown 'Out Plan' has started by beginning to blame failure on Afghan govt. This is just Blair and Bush's legacy.
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Re: BigSis (60)
I accept defeat but equally hope that JotheEditrice realises that this isn't perhaps the only medium where people can express their views.
I still believe it would have had more appeal if the delivery had been better.
Either way it wasn't good radio for a drivetime programme full stop! A very easy ride for an editor as it obviously wasn't edited.
Oh Bigsister - I recall that you were very quick to jump in and retort to alanparker on the 20th August when he said :-
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"I am so ashamed to be part of this same sick island that carries Kenny MacAskill. I can hear him banging on about justice from a "higher power" right now. Oh goody - let's have God judging everyone - perhaps we should be smiting a few sodomites too?
I just want the rest of the world to know that the majority of decent Britons do NOT agree with this stomach churning decision.
Still, as long as it keeps the oil flowing and the diplomats happy, who cares where the moral compass spins to, eh?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Your response being:-
7. At 5:24pm on 20 Aug 2009, Big Sister wrote:
6- Neither you nor I know what the majority of decent Britons think. You're expressing your own opinion, as am I.
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Just pointing out that this blog isn't the definitive view of what constitutes a good radio programme for the majority.
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Big Sis: granted Jonnie and I are 'outvoted' statistically on this thread but I hope our comments will have been noted by Jo and others in the team.
Richard@61: thanks for that information - most enlightening. Agree with ingeniousCliff@62, both that Matthew Hoh got it right and Al Qaeda can (and probably will) train anywhere.
I despair when I hear spokespeople saying that "the war has to continue so 'the job' can be finished". The west have occupied Afghanistan for oblique 'crowd pleasing' reasons and should not have gone there in the first place. Is being there and staying there driven by economics? At what point will the government(s) admit that it was a mistake and bring the troops out?
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Jonnie (63) I really don't know quite what point you're trying to make about my response to alanparker or how it relates to this discussion. I suspect I was making the same point that I'm making here - namely, that none of us can speak for the majority. My point in my 60 was that, on this blog, your views are in the minority on this matter. I haven't tried to make myself out to be an expert, I've only given my opinion, as have others. I don't pretend to know what makes good radio, other than what, for me, makes good radio. I trust Eddie and his team to make decisions based upon their knowledge and extensive experience of what works on their programme.
And, for the record, I wouldn't dare to ever speak for the whole population.
I think we should be prepared to agree to disagree, but I can't see how it is helpful to keep plugging your point.
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Lady Sue, I'm sure your comments will have been noted. Most people here (excluding you, Jonnie and myself) have only posted once. ;o)
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@66 Big Sister: what a lovely post!!
We none of us can possibly know what hundreds of thousands of people's preferences are, but for sure, we can express our own opinions!!
And I suspect that, just as 'window on your world' a few years ago showed, that there are many many listeners who are doing something far removed from driving between 5 and 6.
And some of us, myself included, really apprecieated (sp) the chance to sit and listen to the essay from Jay Winter on PM, as something different and reflective.
nick
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@65 Lady Sue:
I suspect that the troops being in Afghanistan has much to do with the politics of Pakistan. Far more than economics, or crowd pleasing, as you hypothesize.
My reasons for suspecting this, apart from statements by the government, the opposition and spokesmen for the Armed Forces both here and in Afghanistan, are because a nuclear weapon in the hands of the Taliban (or their supporters) is just so unconsionable, almost any means must be used to prevent that from happening.
nick
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At the risk of incurring the wrath of Big Sister for posting yet again - sorry ;o)
nikki, I haven't read anything about the possibility of the Taliban getting hold of nuclear weapons and that being the reason for the war in Afghanistan.
Hasn't it now been shown that there were no WMD in Iraq and threat of same was just used as an excuse to invade and topple Saddam? Another 'crowd pleaser'?
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@70 Lady Sue,
Pakistan has nuclear weapons as part of their military.
As you will have seen on your telly, there is much unrest in Pakistan at present, much of it originating in the border areas of Afghanistan. And thus, a tribal leader, or Taliban Warlord, deciding to use a 'dissident' general in Pakistan to topple the legitimate Pakistan government in a
coup is a distinct possibility, resulting in utter awfulness [this summary is far too simplistic, but i hope it conveys the threat].
For this reason, the Taliban and their support must be diminished.
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#71. nikki noodle,
"For this reason, the Taliban and their support must be diminished."
Which brings it back to the key questions: (1)Does 'western' military action increase or decrease support for the Taliban? (2) Are the Taliban a threat, given that many military leaders in Pakistan, who've been looking after their nukes for years, share Taliban views.
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@72
who knows??
To either question. Are you a betting man? Wanna take a punt? What level of confidence would you place on your conclusions? Given that, IF you are wrong, a nuclear bomb would go off.
of course, you might be right.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Nick,
And these troubles largely have their roots and began as a result of the disruption of Afghanistan by the Russian attempts to control it. The troubles are perpetuated by our attempts to control it.
It's not for nthing that Afghanistan is known as "The graveyard of Empires".
Buy the opium and leave them to it. Their tribal society has outlasted many others.
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nikki, thanks for the information - I don't watch much TV, relying instead on R4 news though an odd time I watch the BBC One Minute news at daybreak.
Your threat is duly conveyed, however, I suspect Lord N's summation is pretty accurate and refers back to Richard's comment @61, when he quotes Matthew Hoh (though I can't find the quote in the very interesting letter of resignation and can't get the other link):
"The only reason they're fighting us is because we are occupying them."
I'm resisting the temptation to draw parallels with the problems in Ireland - probably far too simplistic also.
Lord N: present for you - one of Shakespeare's wooden 'o's.
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#76. Lady Sue,
I haven't quoted from the letter Lady Sue. The quote is from a press conference he gave, reported by ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/matthew-hoh-resigns-us-strategy-afghanistan/story?id=8924500
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#76. Lady Sue,
Here's the Washington Post link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603394.html
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UK has a terrible record of not looking after those that do the fighting, when you stop fighting you are worth NOTHING.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WELLBRAN?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#p/u/42/hF-Tast2Ua8
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It is a shameful thing that we are still ignorant of the suffering we inflict on one another in the name of this idea or that idea, whether it is the suffering of those who have gone to war or not. The idea that we might have more important things in our busy wee lives than to understand this simple thing is symptomatic of the banality of the evil that has us in thrall. To say "We must stop inflicting our baleful influemce on one another now" is no answer if we do not understand what it is that we are in fact doing, and the attitude that a little thought and time might be too much to require of us in listening to someone else (in this case Jay Winter) hardly offers a justifiable position from which to begin.
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Richard, thank you. For whatever reason, if I click on those links I get an error message that makes my internet connection shut down. I'll try in the morning when my computer has had a little sleep.
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Lady Sue, Richard, Lord Nathan:
Hang on a mo!
- if we leave them to it, and something awful goes wrong in Pakistan, there could be a mushroom cloud, somewhere in the world, maybe in Delhi, or Alaska or elsewhere....is that what you want?
- and if we hang in there, and stay put, then very regrettably, some of our bravest and best will die - over a period of about 10 to 15 years. They will die because we are occupying their land. Agreed. Because we all know the long and tortured history of Afghanistan.
It's not much of a choice I am offering, and I am sorry that I have put it so starkly: however, you are entirely free to make your own choice and take whatever consequences follow from it. Neither staying nor departing is without cost.
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Looking forward to hearing Jay Winter again on Weds.
nick
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