AM glass box for Tuesday
We'll be meeting at 11am to talk through ideas for this evening's programme. If you have any suggestions could you let us know?
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The blog for the afternoon news and current affairs programme presented by Eddie Mair.
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Good Morning to you Carolyn and the PM staff (and) the audience....
=====================================
Afghanistan and the outcome of the *Technical* election
of Hamid Karzai...
~Dennis Junior~
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Good morning the team and everyone:
Restructuring of banks;
1, Are they only tinkering at the edges due to the fact that-what we know as a democratic capitalist society is heavily dependent on casino banking and (if not illegal) immoral love of materialism and all the other isms that go with it? I've probably answered my own question haven't I?
2, Should I continue to take an aspirin each day? What are the warning signs of bad side effects?
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Any climate change deniers here? Try this.
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It was odd. I actually felt patronised. I keep getting that feeling. Getting back onto posting here with that one off change, PM and BBC. I didn't post yesterday because I felt it was MORE difficult than it ought to have been. Maybe it WAS me but I stayed off as a sort of protest I suppose.
Difficulties experienced yesterday apart the thought of intelligence is alway a hot topic. Can I mention on a TV Channel other than the BBC was a programme "Is it better to be mixed race?" with regard to achievements in life and a few well known mixed race personalities cited. And I thought what does that TV programme mean in the greater scheme of things. Another "headline" or "strapline" to hang generalities off. Then I found these and being me - took them in an odd way!
Subject: get the geek chic look - work it out
Anagram: IT workout. Cheek - ET thick - google
Google and "phone home" to a friend?(other search engines are available) - if that is thought - I goggle!
Oh yes. PM programme ideas. The alleged preponderance of "mediocrity" assailing our Nation. A recently penned tome suggest perhaps it forestalls overall aspiration here in Great Bitain, PM. More please. Mediocrity I mean. Allegedly I am full of it - mediocrity I mean - and will be pleased to contribute. lol
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Frankly (3) "Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" !
(and never mind if we have left nothing for those who follow).
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And another thing, sequin, did you tie lead weights to yesterday's PM Newsletter? Mine arrived long after the programme.
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I do hope you'll be covering this:
"... a pledge from Cameron to the readers of the Sun that he would hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. "Today," wrote the Tory leader in September 2007 in an article he must bitterly regret, "I will give this cast-iron guarantee: if I become prime minister, a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations." To dramatically emphasise the point, he wrote his personal signature at the bottom. "Small wonder that so many people don't believe a word politicians ever say," added Cameron, "if they break their promises so casually."
"The last few weeks, therefore, have seen a series of sordid negotiations between the Conservatives and executives from the Sun in search of a face-saving formula. ...
"Cameron ... will come up with a new guarantee – a pledge that will force the government to hold a referendum on any future European treaty. This is a cop-out and a betrayal, but the Sun is highly unlikely to say so. This is exactly the kind of post-democratic politics which defined, debased, and finally destroyed, the Blair premiership. It is greatly to be feared that a pattern has been set for the future. Nevertheless, the Tory party's alliance with the Sun means that the European problem has been shelved for the time being."
If the Sun won't say it's a betrayal and a cop-out, will PM step into the breach?
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The court in the Czech Republic has ruled the Lisbon Treaty is in line with their constitution. It just requires President Klaus to sign it now.
Czech mate!
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No particular words of wisdom from me, just a moan about the latest cock-up on the banking front. As a TSB customer from way back, I was relieved to see it weather the credit crunch reasonably well through sensible investment, only to watch it railroaded into a shotgun wedding with the crock HBOS to avoid that bank's nationalisation and save Brown's blushes. Having now trashed the Lloyds TSB brand, I will now find my formerly reliable bank being sold out to God only knows what "new entrant" to the banking market, using who knows what business model.
Add to that the fact that ten years ago I could find a branch on pretty much any high street, then saw branch numbers half as Lloyds and TSB merged, then saw them half again as the network was slashed further. Now we will see yet another sell off of branches, so how anyone is going to physically put money into the banks for them to invest to create recovery is a mystery. Pfft!
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Gordon Brown must feel quite content with Karzai, another unelected leader with unelected cronies in top jobs.
I'm just curious as to why Karzai takes his dress sense from The Mikado, his outfits look nothing like any Afghan tribal wear I've ever encountered, but more like he's rummaged round the costume room at D'Oyly Carte.
Perhaps an item on political opera?
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And while I'm here - is everyine having to sign in afresh on every visit to the blog? I seem to be, even after doing the re-registration.
And what happened to that chap who used to present the programme?
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The US State Department wants to question the Sri Lankan Army Chief, who is currently visiting US, over possible war crimes committed in the Tamil offensive earlier this year.
Meanwhile, the US House of Representative will vote on a resolution today calling on President Obama to reject the UN Goldstone Report which claimed possible war crimes committed by Israel in the Gaza offensive in January.
Is there a contradiction here?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8336759.stm
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GiulioNapolitani (11) Testing, testing...... ;o)
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Giulio, that was happening to us all yesterday, but I've managed to post this (my first comment of the day) without any signing-in. *Phew!*
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3. Frankly - and at the same time as it's revealed that the snows of Killimanjaro are receding at an 'alarming rate' - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0923_030923_kilimanjaroglaciers.html
They can deny all they like, it will still happen and they will still suffer the consequences. I disagree with George's statement that it's people over sixty who are the worse deniers, my experience is quite the opposite. Just one example: people attending bottle banks and recycling for the last ten years have been almost exclusively over sixty in my experience, those arguing against most vociferously all seem to be under thirty, which I put down to them having no experience of a climate when 'extreme weather events' didn't happen frequently, and with no memory of proper winters and summers, and perhaps with more reason to be scared of a future those over sixty won't experience, so in denial.
But perhaps George gets more of the antis since he's so high profile, and perhaps it's the older ones who feel more like taking him on.
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9. GiulioNapolitani - my reaction entirely. Lloyds-TSB was in a healthy state having avoided the gambling frenzy of the others, then virtually forced to take on HBOS, and now they have to be split up becauase they're too big! But consistency and logic aren't strong points of this governmnent.
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Well I managed to sign in again this morning, so that's success. Different computer, so it wasn't the blog's fault this time.
I think we're all wondering what's happened to Eddie. Has he failed the re-registration test & can't get back into the building? It's certainly a long "couple of days"...
No criticism of Sequin intended, (and I shall get back to the adventures of your cashmere cardie v. shortly when I've finished making lots of jars of pickles).
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Afghanistan
Next time you're given the line, "Our troops are over in Afghanistan to keep us safe on the streets of Britain," can you question them further, because I don't get it. How does it prevent someone living in Saudi Arabia (where the 9/11 guys originated), or Leeds, from carrying out an attack in Britain? Are they expected to think, 'Hmmm. British troops are killing my brothers over in Afghanistan, so I better not launch an attack on Britain"?
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Lloyds TSB
Why doesn't the government just keep Lloyds TSB, cut the multi million pound salaries down to more moderate levels, and declare that only Lloyds TSB will be guaranteed by the government: all other banks are independent and will not be bailed out if they get into trouble.
Lets see what happens to the high salaries and bonuses, and the casino banking then.
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Oh, dear!
The 'psychologically important' Ftse 5000 floor has been breached:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EFTSE
Is this the end of money for nothing capitalism as we know it?
I hope so.
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Oh, look.
The 'psychologically important' Ftse 5000 ceiling has been broken again.
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EFTSE
Is this making me some money? Having invested at 3950, you betcha!
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If we can stop the banks, the insurance, the pension and hedge funds bidding up assets and then presenting them to the banks in return for real money......
.....but that's the Governor's job, to (have) watch(ed) credit creation overall (!!!!), and HE's in favour of the banks keeping (separate) 'investment' arms....
...so how is the end of private money creation to come about?
By shaking these private fund holders and managers to their foundations by political pressure, and taking over the whole finance industry and running it properly.
Divide the banks into investment and retail arms, take back the bail out money from the investment units, and declare them bankrupt.
Real state ownership of the INDUSTRY is the key.
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Simon Mann could be home with his family in Hampshire within days, having just been pardoned after only a year served of his 34 year sentence. It helps to be an old Etonian I expect.
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Oh look,
The 'psychologically important' Ftse 5000 floor has been breached:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EFTSE
Having invested some money (earned through working hard and being rewarded for good performance) back in March/April when it was around the 3600 to 3800 mark, am I better off? Definitely! And seeing how I've got a pension plan that I've been putting money into for a number of years, is that pension pot growing? Oh yes!
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Having been invited many times by the redoubtable Eddie to enter the Glass Box, and feeling that I had something to say on the topic of cannabis and psychosis, I took the plunge and made my entry at 70 on 30th Oct. But what do I find but that I have landed in what appears to be a semi-private chat-room – which isn’t for me.
So, call me a one-entry-wonder, but I’ll bid you hail and farewell, and concentrate on tending my own Blog, which deals primarily with aspects of voice-hearing and allied topics.
Anyone interested will be welcome at www.roycvincent.blogspot.com
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plus ca change - for shopkeeper or councilman substitute the category of your choosing:
From The Times 18 November 1785
It is a custom in Turkey, that when a shopkeeper is caught telling a lie either in trade or otherwise, that the front of his house is blacked for one month, and at the expiration of that period, he is at liberty to whitewash the front again: a correspondent is of the opinion that if a similar custom was adopted in this country, the Metropolis would appear in mourning from the Palace to Wapping, the City in particular especially at the time of electioning or the chusing of Common Councilmen.
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Let capitalism continue!
Glad to hear about windfall gains that can be taxed away completely, and increases in pension pots that can be divided out equally to one and all.
Sorry about the low paid in our offices, factories and farms, the unemployed and the pensionless. In fact, bad luck for all on below average income and wealth. Hey, that's WELL over half of us. But who cares about democracy when it's numero uno involved.
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Anne - You are being summoned here!
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I noticed that my newsletter was sent at 12:40 and arrived at 21:34. It has to go via America now instead of Germany, so it is to be expected. Not so green, I suppose.
I don’t deny climate change. Nor did that weather-forecaster las week. I just doubt whether man is the cause and whether man can do anything to stop it. We should be planning mitigation, not pointlessly aiming at prevention.
Was it Mombiot who recently headed north to see the effects of climate change but couldn’t get far because there was too much ice? 60-70 year olds are probably more sceptical because they are older and wiser.
I am very much against waste and pollution. When our Government bans bonfires from December to October I might, just might, believe they care about the environment.
Mr. Brown has called upon Preside Car’s eye to unify Afghanistan. Which British PM has done that since Churchill?
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Forgot to say, it's 4997 as I type.
There you are! With golden handshakes and free medical treatment to the redundant middle class technologists and unequal pay letting office bosses cream it, the Ftse has inflated over 30 per cent since March. To the benefit of the few, who have pumped up a speculative bubble, with the economy .4 per cent down in hte third quarter and unemployment growing.
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EtE (27&30) - It's great, isn't it?
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EtE: Oh I know, isn't is appaling when someone works hard to earn their wages, saves them up rather than spend on frivolous things like new clothes, and actually dares to save some money to make their life a little more comfortable when they retire. How DARE they!
{/sarcasm}
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EtE - you haven't just spotted that the stock market goes up and down, have you?
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Might shift the rest of the RBS now. Bought at 16p and sold half at 54p. Only 37p now. Decisions, decisions.
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DoctorDolots - I didn't know Megrahi was at Eton ... small world, eh?
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PF @ 28 - that's interesting - your link doesn't just go to another thread, it goes to a specific message in that thread - which means that it must be possible to re-instate the 'recent comments' feature ...
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Should horse riding should be banned?
Seems Prof David Nutt has highlighted an important issue. Horse riding does cause many deaths and injuries.
How many of Britain's young people get drawn into this dangerous activity?
Horse riders also have a detrimental impact on society, being the cause of many road traffic accidents involving innocent drivers.
There's an animal cruelty issue as well. Throwing 80 kg onto the middle the creature's back would surely cause some long term injuries, not to mention the discomfort of a steel bit jammed in it's mouth.
And if cows have a negative effect on the environment, I'm sure horses and ponies do. How much energy gets wasted moving horses around the country for race meetings? But whereas cows provide milk, horses and ponies provide nothing; we don't even eat them.
I think there's a strong case to outlaw horse and pony riding.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8339097.stm
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RBS is held up by public money. Why should one benefit more or less than any other from that?
Oh, dear, true colours.
From the overpaid, talking of their cleverness in using using other people's money to feather their nests.
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Richard_SM (12)
Probably no contradiction: a representative from Israel has already visited the US so will no doubt have been asked about possible war crimes. The HOR is probably voting about rejecting (can they do that?) the Goldstome Report because it refers to war crimes on the part of HAMAS. Hamas was invented to make FATAH look moderate.
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Frankly (38) - It's the url associated with the time (At 11:06am on 03 Nov) that the message was posted.
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Sorry that should be - Frankly (36).
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#39. Vyle Hernia
Sorry, I can't follow any of your 'logic.'
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Richard (42)Ifthe US quiz the Israelis about possible war crimes in Israel, why should they not want to quiz a senior person from Sri Lanka in the samw way? There is an inconsistency in that the Sri Lankan did not volunteer to meet any representatives of the US government.
If you think the HOR is being inconsistent, bear in mind that they are only being asked to vote at the request of [someone]; they may not vote to reject the report. If they reject the report they are letting Hamas off the hook.
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37 RSM
I agree, and I've never seen anyone kill a fox on an E.
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36.
Re: 28, 36 and 40.
If you check the source code of this page (under View) you'll see 28 addresses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/11/changing_your_identity.shtml#P87959307
in the link there.
The link then travels to a particualr comment on the target page.
You'll see the URL of the link to the 'changing....' thread has that P87959307 in tis address bar. That P number directs to a particualr entry, not time.
To find such entries, say for your 36, here, just go to Source and scroll down to about half way.
Youu'll soon find the comments there, icluding your own at 36. Move right aong the line to find the particular address of your comment:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/11/am_glass_box_for_tuesday_3.shtml#P87965613,
which you could use ot address a link in hte usual (eh, ref?) way.
The only thing distinctive about the time was that the Fste was below 5000 still, which some may find disturbing. Apaprently its 'psychologically important'!!!!
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Preston and Ffred - congratulations! I know where to come for advice when I've got a bit of money to dabble with.
In the meantime, I'm relieved to know that house prices in my area have started to go up again - not that they ever went down - just stagnated a bit. Now that was money well-spent and well-borrowed with interest rates being so low ;o)
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45
Sorry, 36, the comma I inadvertently attached to your address messes the link.
This should be suitably self-referential for you! (:-)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/11/am_glass_box_for_tuesday_3.shtml#P87965613
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The FTSE is currently at 5022. Why is 5000 psychologically important? It's only a number.
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EtE (45) - On the other hand you could do it the simple way and just right-click on the time of the posting, select 'properties' and the address (URL) of that particular post will be displayed.
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Actually, Gillianian (46), I think that we now know where to come for a couple of quid when we are a bit short of the bus-fare home . . . which . . . it just so happens . . . (ahem, please?)
;o)
H.
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Humph(50)...but...em....but...errrr...I'll have to sell my house first!!
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Gillianian (46) - I think Fearless is a few steps ahead of me having gone in about 300 points before I did. But the RBS was worth the gamble.
And nice to see that the 'psychologically important' FTSE 5000 ceiling has been broken once again - 5015 as I write.
RBS at 34.70p - but they'll come back.
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Sid (48) - Frankly, I'm amazed.
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Alternatively, you can right-click and choose "copy link location" which can then be pasted anywhere....
;-
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Yes, Milord, or 'Copy Shortcut' as your least favourite browser would have it!
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If you like your browser to be of the operatic style, it would be Copy Link Address...
Or if your browser likes to think it's on a Wild Animal trek, it's be Copy Link
:-)
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On the subject of global warming:
There was a request last week for any pro-global warming claim which was false. Let’s try the hockey-stick graph for starters; and it can always be followed up by the claim that was made quite a few years ago about “only five years left before it will be too late”.
No-one makes a profit out of global warming claims. Try Al Gore: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/6491195/Al-Gore-could-become-worlds-first-carbon-billionaire.html.
On the arctic ice cover, the statistics show that it is not quite as bad as the pessimists make out: http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/reportcard/seaice.html. Not good, but the upturn in the past two years is not indicative of a one-way calamity.
On care for the environment. A few years ago, mercury was seen as a severe environmental danger; now we are being forced to dispose of large numbers of light bulbs containing mercury for the sake of a very small reduction in CO2 output.
And that’s before you get to the mixed messages on the actual problem: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6466890/Methane-impact-on-global-warming-much-greater-than-thought.html.
If the pro-global warming lobby accepted that science is changing, that they have made mistakes, that the solution isn't simple, and stopped giving ridiculously short times for catastrophe, they might be believed more. After all, we keep being told that 5 degrees rise will kill us all, but we all know that the Med is more than 5 degrees warmer than the UK in summer, and that much of Africa is more than 5 degrees warmer than that. Many of the areas of the world that are suffering the worst of climate change have also suffered the worst environmental damage with tree felling etc., and yet that is never mentioned, presumably because the solution is in the hands of the third world.
By the way, with the Maldives doing its publicity stunt over sea level rises, does anyone have a figure for the sea level rise in the past twenty years?
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it!
You must be referring to Internet Exploder....
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#43. Vyle Hernia,
I don't think you understand what's happening:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/dems-in-house-to-pass-bil_b_340987.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hH_iWTtIJQd1_B3phNUKdf3CKOvA
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jMgYpmlhy-rmy5UnorJQQMLAC9XQ
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(59) I haven't time to read all your links, but I tried the first one. I would recommend ddolan dot com for a more balanced view than, say, the palestine monitor.
I think the resolution quoted in Huffington's post is entirely reasonable. But then, I'm not very keen on PLO/Fatah/Hamas. Land for peace seems to mean land for rockets.
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49
Thanks. 40 was as clear as mud.
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Whose land are they offering for peace? Is it theirs to offer?
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Why should anyone be permitted to free ride, whether via bonus or as shareholder on the back of an 84 per cent governement investment (plus the billions given away)?
House prices go up and down together. When they go up people without a house already find it harder to buy and people with a house, to move up in size etc.
A nasty system making the means to life a goad.
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(62) Yes, it's been theirs for thousands of years. The West Bank was part of Jordan but it was so much trouble to Jordan they let it go.
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Who lives by the sword....
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Kid "Waaaaaaa!!"
Bully: "Look, if you agree to be my slave, I'll give you back what's left of your pocket money."
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ExpectingtheEnd (63) People with a house can sell that house at the higher price, and still have the means to move to a bigger house! Better yet - they can sell that house and move to a smaller one and still have money in the bank!
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Gillianian (67) or they could take that extra money, and invest it into stocks and shares!
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Ffred (68) I can't wait to downsize - what a fantastic retirement I could have ;o)
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Gillianian don't downsize too much - can't having you fading away.
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Anne P(70) No chance of that - we didn't get any guisers at Hallowe'en, so I have lots of goodies I simply can't resist.
It serves me right for only buying the good stuff!
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I'm just waiting for the all-important Footsie figure 5678.
Now, if I could spell it, that would be psychologically important
n-n
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Sid@3: thanks for the link. Sorry not to respond before now.
The article starts,
“There is no point in denying it: we're losing. Climate change denial is spreading.”
[Thinks: “What excellent news! “]
Monbiot goes on in a rather sarcastic tone, which inevitably indicates to me that his argument is weak and he thinks by being ‘smart’ he’ll come out ahead. Sadly, as evidenced on our own beloved blog, this is rarely the case and more often proves counter-productive, making the ‘speaker’ seem like a desperate hysteric.
I am amused that he says, “Plenty of intelligent people have also declared themselves sceptics.” Really? Intelligence people sceptics?
Monbiot goes on to accuse Clive James of not producing evidence but is quite happy to quote:
"An American scientist I know..."
Sorry? "An American scientist I know"? Sloppy journalism or a ‘phantam’ scientist created to back up his own hypothesis? Doesn’t look good, does it?
To claim that the evidence for the “science for this is in” and liken it to evidence as strong as “Darwinian evolution or the link between smoking an lung cancer” is absurd.
nikki-noodle (nikki and I are on opposite sides in this argument) completely understood the point Clive James was making, which Monbiot wilfully misinterprets, and summed up James’ piece on Friday’s PM Glass Box much more eloquently than I could:
“And this week, there was an outstanding broadcast by Clive James, which, while on the surface was championing skepticism, actually was a crackingly good recruiting sergent for the scientific method - requesting that we all look at the facts and fit a theory around them, rather than vice versa.”
Well said, nikki. I couldn’t agree more.
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Could PM put up a counter argument against the Welsh Environment Ministers intellectual nonsense about plastic bags. The very idea that charging for plastic bags will reduce the use of plastic is myopia of a
very tall order. How many plastic bags were being used at the end of the last global warming period that ended the ice age? Go into Marks and Spencers or any High Street store everything is plastic; the floors, the walls, the ceilings, virtually every item of food. 9 billion humans will soon inhabit the planet. The notion that all the Chinese and Indians now going into their supermarkets will not use more and more plastic bags etc etc makes the Ministers pathetic, stupid and deeply
unintelligent 'police-state' comments totally devoid of empirical science. What gives her the right to impose her green religion on the rest of us?
Clearly she is on a death march to loose as many votes as possible. The woman should be shown up for the empty vessel intellectually she patently is. Please put up someone to shoot her nonsenses.
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Er, Malcolm - it is actually quite a good idea to charge for plastic bags. IMO it forces an awareness onto the consumer about the environment. I've carried a basket (rather stylish one I picked up in a market in France, in fact) for some years now. Once you develop the habit, the very idea of using a plastic bag from checkout becomes abhorrent.
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*blushes*
Lady Sue, I am delighted to be in agreement with you; and as everyone else knows, your eloquence, wit and ready humour far outshine my little paragraph!!
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nikki, not at all. My turn for *blushes*.
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Clive James: "I know next to nothing about climate science."
And again: "I still can't see that there is a scientific consensus. There are those for, and those against. Either side might well be right, but I think that if you have a division on that scale, you can't call it a consensus."
Does the same not apply to creationists vs evolutionary scientists, holocaust believers/deniers ... indeed, any issue where you can find a believer and a non-believer?
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Sid, there is a difference between 'scientific consensus' and a consensus based on faith.
IMO creationists look to the bible for an explanation of where earth/we all came from and their faith rather dictates their beliefs and therefore overrides any logical, scientific argument. It is impossible to debate the science of evolution with such people as their religious beliefs simply get in the way of reason and sound, proven science.
My opinion of holocaust deniers is not very high and I suspect neither is yours.
As nikki says, Clive James' broadcast on the surface was championing skepticism but "actually was a crackingly good recruiting sergent for the scientific method - requesting that we all look at the facts and fit a theory around them, rather than vice versa.”
I don't think the climate change issue is a question of two camps of 'believers and non believers', well, perhaps it is in the case of the 'believers'. Like Clive James, I'm happy to admit that I know "next to nothing" about it but I'm all for looking at the science and the facts and doing as James' suggests, fitting a theory around them rather than vice versa.
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A very cogent discussion on these matters here
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Vyle (60):
See this
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Lady Sue - I doubt we'll ever agree on this. I have looked at a huge amount of the evidence, and have come to the conclusion that the best theory for the data we have is that human activity is warming the earth more than it would have warmed 'naturally'.
What interests me more now is why some people are more prone to adopt the alternative view, when there is no evidence for it. I think it's partly a product of instant communication and easy access - any conspiracy theory can be worldwide in a matter of seconds. (Online, no one knows you're not a scientist!) Repeated references to such a theory then create a web of support, and a certain group of people will accept that in preference to what I regard as the scientific consensus (Clive James is undoubtedly wrong on this - the science is in (unless anyone can cite an article published in, say, the last 24 months in any reputable scientific journal which supports the alternative view)).
Poincaré suggested a hundred years ago that the willingness to embrace pseudo-science flourishes because people know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether illusion is not more consoling. That's why people prefer to believe that the MMR triple jab is dangerous rather than simply accepting that they have an autistic child.
I'd apply similar considerations to other conspiracy theories, like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, with their dodgy photos of Rumsfeld sneaking explosives into the Twin Towers. Nothing anyone can say can persuade them they're wrong ...
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Lord Nathan - v interesting ...
and have you seen this?
Different issue, but overlapping considerations ...
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Aye, I saw that one a few days ago. We're possibly entering an age of anti-science and anti-intellectual witch-hunting.
Being an aging bod, I must be in a minority in not embracing comfortting illusions, but perhaps my scientific background (indoctrination?) has a part to play in that.
Instead, I'm constantly fighting against a tendency to eco-despair...
;-(
We are doomed, you know
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Indeed - did you hear the scientist on In Our Time recently ... MB asked whether the planet would survive. She said it would - but it soon became clear that she was not including the human race. The universe does not owe us a living ...
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Sid, I fear you are right, we will never agree, especially when you write things like what interests you, "... is why some people are more prone to adopt the alternative view, when there is no evidence for it."
There's no 'evidence' for the other view! Surely common sense dictates that farting cattle are really not responsible for adding to 'global warming'.
Clive James is not wrong. His opinion is quite sound as, if I may say so, is mine.
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Can we agree that the earth is warming, that that's a bad thing (even if, in some people's opinion, it may be naturally occuring) and that anything we can do to prevent it getting worse is a good thing?!
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That's the difference between us, Lady Sue ... "Surely common sense dictates" vs "Let's have a look at some data."
Common sense v science - for you, common sense wins, for me, it's science.
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Lady Sue: "There's no 'evidence' for the other view! Surely common sense dictates that farting cattle are really not responsible for adding to 'global warming'."
Try CBBC here.
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... or here Childrens Bottom Burp Channel
'Fart' was a swear word when I was at school.
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With respect Milady, The question is not whether the farts are contributing to the problem, but how much the contribution is.
Since I was born. I have seen the world's population of humans nearly triple, and the number of cows has increased almost twice as much. The first real law I learned in science, was called "the universal law of conservation of energy and matter", and it appealed completely to "common sense". I have later heard it translated as "There's no such thing as a free lunch," or in Yorkshire, "Ye don't get owt for nowt."
Its formal proper name is The First Law of Thermodynamics, and it's pure commonsense, but commonsense, according to Benjamin Franklin is in rather short supply....
Peace and Commonsense.
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Gillianian@87: agree that anything we can do that is good for the environment in general eg. using baskets when we go shopping and not using plastic bags, is a good thing.
Sid@88 and 89: hilarious! A children's web page is presented as your 'scientific evidence'! LOL. Please don't bother with any more links on this subject after that one!
LordN@91: "The question is not whether the farts are contributing to the problem, but how much the contribution is." Fair point and taken.
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Lady Sue @ 92
I'm afraid that was the best I could do on my way to bed ... nonetheless, I'm fascinated by the notion that a website for children cannot offer scientific data.
However: the briefest of searches throws up any number of 'real' scientific papers, from which I have randomly selected the following:
"The three major anthropogenic greenhouse gases are carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide, and agriculture contributes significant amounts of each. The IPCC estimated that globally, agriculture contributed 10% to 12% of anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO2, 40% of methane (CH4) and 60% of nitrous oxide (N2O) emissions in 2005. Agricultural processes and sources generating greenhouse gases include the burning of fossil fuels, deforestation, rice cultivation, biomass burning, enteric fermentation by ruminants (gas belched from the stomachs of cattle, goats and sheep), the fermentation of animal manure and the application of nitrogenous fertilizers. The livestock industry is estimated to contribute half of total U.S. agricultural greenhouse-gas emissions, with a quarter each coming from ruminant enteric fermentation and animal waste (USDA 2004)."
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Sid we are just going to have to agree to disagree. At least you didn't come back with a quip that you thought the children's website might have suited my "room temperature IQ".
Fear of farting cattle. Whatever next?
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Lady Sue - I hope I have never given the impression that you have a "room temperature IQ"! As far as I'm concerned, I'm (a) fighting the corner for science, and (b) exploring the differences between perfectly intelligent people who, given access to the same information, opt for incompatible viewpoints.
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Today's thought for the day (compliments of Texas A&M University)
As I remember it, the biggest disappointment about growing up was finding out that adults didn't really have any secret knowledge about what to do in times of trouble.
-Beryl Pfizer
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Sid, thankyou for the first. You are a most gracious 'adversary'.
As for your a) and b) - snap!
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