The PM Glass Box.
In a real glass box every evening at 18.00, the PM production team meets to discuss the programme that's just finished. You're encouraged to do so here in this virtual glass box. Tonight's editor Mark Frankel will read the comments and may well add his own.
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I think James Delingpole is a hideous snob, and he is certainly ignorant when it comes to climate change.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100014107/im-glad-that-the-bnps-nick-griffin-is-appearing-on-question-time/
But on this topic, he does have a bit of a point, doesn't he ?
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The BBC used to have UKIP spokesmen on, long before they started to win seats. UKIP are also odious and truely unrepresentative of the population as a whole.
Therefore the BNP have an equal right to appear.
On a another line I am sick and tired of the SNP's Alex Salmond appearing on the BBC in England. At the heart of all nationalist movements is dislike of other.
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Loot, If no one voted for them I would agree with the term "unrepresentative" but as plenty of people do I think you are being a little silly.
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#3 Thunderbird
what I said was "UKIP are also odious and truely unrepresentative of the population as a whole."
note: "the population as a whole"
I have heard from the anti-BNP protesters that "they are an odious party and truely unrepresentative of the population as a whole."
So that is supposed to be reason to ban them.
My observation is that the UKIP group were not banned from the BBC although at the time they first appeared they had only just started.
Hence as the BNP have representation then the BBC have no justification in not letting them on the airwaves.
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Loot, as it is possible to be in government with less than 50% of the popular vote then no one is ever representative of the population as a whole.
I wonder if the British people ever got the chance to vote in referendum, would UKIP get over 50%?
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#5. Thunderbird
You have to look at the small print/disclaimer - Of those that expressed an opinion the greatest group prefered party X to run the government for the next 5 years.
As far as referendums are concerned, maybe you have read my opinions on this before.
European referendums should be Europe wide and all votes collected and counted centrally. So we will get a truely European peoples view not contaminated with nationalistic or "lets kick the government" distortions.
Now after the EU wide vote, if countries like the UK don't like it, then they can ask the people in or out via a separate referendum.
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For whoever it was disputing my saying Fry had initiated the action over Moir's nasty article, this [although not the origin] also seems to be saying much the same.
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/54955,people,news,stephen-fry-defends-twitter-over-gately-jan-moir-but-fears-his-tribune-status
[Quote]
'... the incredible popular response to his pieces - more than 21,000 complained to the Press Complaints Commission as a result of his tweet about Moir...'
'Fry, who had 868,689 followers at the time of writing...'
It seems Stephen is now worried the same thing could happen to him if 'nasty people' join Twitter!
It strikes me as yet another example of intolerance; Moir's article was intolerant, and so was the response. There's a lot of it around, rentamobs try to silence anyone they don't like. Witness the arrival of Geert Wilders, who was [reasonale and calmly] explaining his defence of free speech, while outside, the usual suspects when Islam is criticised were holding placards saying Shariah for the UK and Islam will conquer the world, as they screamed at the police and anyone else close enough. They did his publicity for him.
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1. lordBeddGelert - what a gathering of the insane he has posting on his blog though! Not like the intelligent, measured, thoughtful posters who Mr Mair attracts!
One there thinks the Copenhagen agreement is a communist manifesto leading to world government, signed up to by a communist Obama [who hasn't signed anything and might not yet] and that world government is actually the end goal of the global warming 'conspiracy', but he's stopped taking his tablets so you can't blame him.
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Loot, as every government in Europe except the Irish was too scared to have a referendum then I guess we will never know......
Maybe if our chums in the Czech Republic can hold on 'till after our election then the referendum result couldn't be anything to do with “kicking the government” and I assume you would then, with good grace accept the voice of the people?
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#9. Thunderbird
As I am a democrat I always accept the voice of the people.
I voted in the only referendum we have held and am happy to do so again.
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Lucien. Sorry I didn't answer your question on Friday [I think] but I didn't return to the board that day. But yes, I'd be happy for any Jewish friend to read or hear those sentences, in fact they have said far worse about Judaism in the past and are far more critical than I. Re goy, apart from knowing the word since the sixties, I was called a goy only last year on a board [not this one I hasten to add] whilst criticising Israel, so it's not totally an antique term.
But it's interesting that despite saying you are atheist and hesitate to defend Judaism, you are adamant it isn't anything to do with race. I was reared a catholic, but when catholicism is criticised I never jump to its defence, I'm more likely to put the boot in actually. Perhaps that's because anyone can become catholic, preferably when too young to have developed critical faculties, but they'll take anyone without reservation. And my parents [devout churchgoers] were unfazed when all their children married non-catholics. Mind you, they were liberals.
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5. Thunderbird - democracy is only ever at best the dictatorship of the majority over the minority, in our case the dictatorship of a minority over the majority.
And they want to transplant it lock, stock and barrel to Afghanistan where tribal elders and bribery [gifts] are the traditional culture. Interesting that with multiculturalism Afghans in the UK get more respect for their culture than those in Afghanistan.
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What music would people like played at their funeral?
Mine would be Rodriguez' Concierto de Aranjuez, written after the death of his baby daughter, and a stunning, emotional piece of music.
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11 Doctordolots
Actually I did raise the issue of jewishness being a cultural and racial identity, pointing out that jews are a racial group in British law.
Jews have traditionally been treated as a race by their persecutors; the nazis and czarist militias were never known to request synagogue attendance records.
I am an atheist; that is why the religion of judaism is of little interest to me and why I said that my own relationship with judaism is complicated.
My issue was with the assertion made by you and another poster that jews - guided by theology - consider themselves to be superior to other people, based on a false and and deceitful interpretation of the notion of the 'chosen people'
The claim is a pernicious lie and it is anti-semitic, I gave reasons and links (re-posted below) on the previous thread explaining why it's not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people#Chosenness_is_not_superiority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people#Charges_of_racism
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Dr (12) Your theory on democracy in the UK makes no sense at all. The only time you will ever get 100% voting for the same side is a dictatorship !
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Ln 2, Salmond is both an MP and an MSP, so can appear wherever he wants.
UKIP Nigel Farage is on QT and AQ every so often.
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l_d 14, I remember an Indy columnist saying that he/she was born Muslim. I wrte and said that nobody is born Muslim. Or Christian, as far as that goes. Being Jewish is a bit more complicated. Maybe we should say Semitic with a Jewish/Hebrew religion. As I understand it, you are Jewish by way of your mother.
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14. Catholics were persecuted viciously for a very long time, many thousands were slaughtered - burned, hung drawn and quartered, property confiscated. My parents were still very private about their religion as discrimination still existed that long after. Jews are not the only people who have suffered for their religion. I didn't say Jews guided by their theology are racist, I said Judaism was racist end exclusive, which you have appeared to agree with. Jews have the option as we all do of ignoring their brainwashing and liberating themselves. They have been the only Jews I have ever had as friends. Perhaps we felt a kinship in both having escaped a means-pirited, death-dfearing, sex-hating, controlling Abrahamic religion, not that we ever discussed it a great deal.
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I don't see why anyone should regard UKIP as "odious". They want out of Europe. Wanting out of Europe is a perfectly respectable position to take.
Those who oppose UKIP by regarding them as equivalent to BNP are not doing democracy any favours. Labelling a party as fascist just because you don't happen to agree with it undermines the value of applying the term where it is really deserved.
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Just turned on to hear that chappie who seems very chuffed by our level of debt. Where do you find them? He did slip in that we had done worse than everybody else and had a reference to the ERM debacle - apparently that was pretty great too!
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Further to that, you can quote all you like others opinions [that's what Wikipedia is after all] but I know SOME Jews do indeed use their religion to believe in their superiority. It would be racist if I were to allege that ALL Jews were the same, which I have never done. I still think you are overeacting in the same way that any criticism of Islam is today met with complaints and attempts to silence. You can't masquerade as a liberal and try to ban people's posts. Which have been reinstated so the BBC don't agree with you either. Just admit you were a bit hasty and stop jumping through hoops to defend a position which you know is very shaky and puts you too close to those who would burn Salman Rushdie's books [or even him] or prevent a musical showing in London. And you know you don't want to be that close.
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Hah! I liked that - without any sense of irony; "Anglers are upset that fish are being killed."
I think they've got the wronh hobby then.
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19. idontcareanymore - yes they want out of Europe but what else? I find Farrage pretty repulsive, and Kilroy-Silk was... it's the unknown part that's the problem.
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22. The Stainless Steel Cat - not really, no fish means no angling. Anglers like to catch fish, not kill them, and they mostly throw them back. Tey are actually, as a group, more in tune with the environment than most who sit at a computer for hours expressing their opinions. Not that I approve of sticking hooks through the mouth of any animal for sport.
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18 Doctordolots
Historically when jews have been persecuted it has been as a race, not as a faith. Had I lived in nazi Germany my atheism would not have protected me from persecution and murder.
On the other thread you and another poster promoted the myth of jewish exceptionalism, that jews consider themselves superior to others - that is a pernicious lie.
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Eddie, why didn't you ask HIlary Benn (Mr complacement) why these CEO's are not imprisoned. Nothing will change otherwise will it! Killing the environment and the so the creatures who depend on it (ultimately us too) is akin to the crime of murder after all.
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Well done that man. The same man I "told off" yesterday. A Government Minister. I hear he launched a helpful book today for school goers and admitted a problem in the area himself - allegedly. A speech impediment was it - a slight stammer?
But that is what I am miffed about. Twice in my newspaper this week alone - two commentators have had a gentle go at - in my opinion - one of the BBCs finest for his verbal presentation on air.
I myself commented on its uniqueness once - to my missus - who mentioned reading that this gentleman too was/is a sufferer of something similar seemingly. I hope that is right? But I thought I understood then perhaps he (BBC guy) was adjusting his verbal presentation as a result.
I just took it on myself to confirm same before writing this text and quelle surprise - A Dire Media columnist being sardonic about it in 2007? In effect and allegedly - jeering? Hmm.
But School Secretary. Mr Balls, well done sir.
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The debate over fines of river polluters reminds me of the similiar debate over how to stop deaths on construction sites - some say treat an accident equivalent to murder, some say fines like now, some say just have lots of rules which commentators can poke fun at (because ladders look terribly safe until they slip out from under you).
Typical that when given the opportunity to criticise the government over this have a different view when it comes to protecting big business that gets fined too much in their eyes when a worker trajically dies.
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I missed most of today's programme. Has Nick Griffin been on?
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25. You're sounding like the record's stuck. It's not mature to refuse to admit you were wrong. Back to the holocaust, last refuge of the Israelis when they get criticism. Other races have been murdered in very large numbers througout the history of the ape. Native Americans were deliberately wiped out with bullets, cannon, disease contaminated blankets, starvation and theft of their children. Similarly with the Aboriginal inhabitants of Australia when the whites decided it was 'empty'. They have yet to get their countries back.
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29. Joseph Walker - no but his presence is all around ;-)
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Re sea errosion - it really annoys me that they don't put a wave power machine upstream of the cliff - I was taught that you don't get something for nothing so if there is a wave power machine upstream there won't be enough power for the waves to damage the cliff and we'd get power for free (though these things are expensive if they're to be secured to the sea bed) but you could combine costs.
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32. jonathanmorse - Lateral thinking, well done that poster. Sounds like an excellent idea to me, not necessarily to protect a house, but they already spend a lot on 'defending' bits of coast with massive rocks carted from hundreds of miles away, so better to harness wave power.
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from Ms Pithy Writer...
Eddie, please say who the interviewee was at the end of the interview as we often prick up our ears half way through the interviews. It is kind of like the Weather report issue in reverse!
So,on the ex woman MP (I will have to wait for listen again to find out who she was) was just great!
What a pity there's no chance for her fresh ideas in the current undynamic system. She should stand as an independent perhaps, when her kids are older. I would like to stand as an independent - would PM back me?????(I am a woman)!
But there would have to be a big enough gang of us so that a loose federation of independents could vote together on good ideas also to have some strategy.
Indeed, as things are I am disenfranchised as if I vote Green or lib dem ( I am fervently ex labour now) then I let in the Tories.
This is a huge problem What do people think? Isn't it pretty ironic that the Afghanistan President needs more than 50% to be legit when our PM has no such legitemcy AT ALL! and the labour party share OF VOTES is way below 50%..... DEMOCRACY -- WHAT DEMOCRACY!
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30 Doctordoolots
Of course other peoples have been persecuted and systematically murdered. That doesn't make the holocaust any less of an evil and despicable crime of genocide - one which you dismiss as 'the last refuge of Israelis when they get criticism'. This is a conversation about jewishness and anti-semitism, I have not sought to widen it to a debate about Israel.
Your claim is that judaism is intrinsically racist and that the biblical concept of the chosen people means that jews consider themselves to be superior to other human beings. I have explained to you why this is an anti-semitic lie and offered wikipedia links which make the case in far greater detail.
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30 Doctordolots
If you insist with the claim that it is part of jewish theology that the jewish people are superior to gentiles then please post a jewish theological interpratation which supports your case.
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If we only elected a PM and there could only be 2 candidates our system could be similiar to the Afghan one but I think we're better off with a Parliament that can hold the PM back and Afghanistan and the US would be better off with those systems.
That said Gordon Brown's spent the last year hanging on to power at all costs and the country has suffered in the process.
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DoctorDolots (31)
Shame. We might have got another display of consumate political verbal manipulation. Griffin ran rings round Martha Kearney at lunchtime and I was wondering whether he'd do the same with Eddie Mair. It got me thinking that it's not just most interviewers that can't handle this man, but also most Parliamentarians. The UK Parliamentary establishment is now widely regarded as a dysfunctional and weak institution. I suspect there are very of its members now sufficiently committed to real ideas that can successfully debate with Griffin.
On Thursday Jack Straw is being wheeled out to argue with this committed Fascist. It's my view that the only way Straw has a hope of destroying Griffin is if he blows the dust off his long-forgotten Socialist roots and takes him head on. This will not happen.
Actually, there is one Parliamentarian who could handle and destroy Griffin's arguments and expose the lies he will be promoting on Thursday night. He is George Galloway and whatever we may think of him he would be ideal for this very specialist job.
Griffin's lunchtime performance also got me thinking how the near complete lack of genuine belief in real ideas that now pervades the British political class has now infected mainstream political journalism and turned it into little more than a cosy profession, secure and confident in the knowledge that British politics is little more than a well-rehearsed game of two sides, designed more to preserve established tradition and behaviours than to make real changes and adapt and respond to public need.
Nick Griffin and his party are in danger of having a field day over the next few years. It's no wonder so many people are afraid to give him a platform.
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7. I'm pleased to see that you did try substantiate your claim but -
"Showing it peaking at 11am – @stephenfry first tweet on #janmoir was at 12:27pm.
What the ubiquitous Fry mentions in their reports are about is a journalistic laziness and the ever-present need for a celeb mention. A real piece of good work would be to actually track #janmoir all the way from where the first rock was thrown out to the furthest reach of the ripples."
http://onlinejournalismblog.com/
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How best do you run a democracy - have an elected President or an elected Parliament, and if a Parliament should it be chosen proportionally to the viewpoints of the electorate or linked to constitiuencies (I think most people think you can do both but I believe you can't) and if so should it be the most popular (first past the post) or the least unpopular (AV where the least popular candidates' votes are redistributed until one candidate has half the vote).
I hadn't thought this through until I realised that the Euro elections were semi PR (in that true PR you count all the votes for the assembly together whereas in the euro elections you vote by region) i.e. you pick one party and vote for it and the proportion of votes that party gets sets the proportion of seats they get, as opposed to voting for say the greens first and expecting your vote to go to Labour because that's your second vote.
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That means that every rich person (the top 20 per cent of income earners) in this county has refused to contibute an extra 3.5 thousand pounds to the country's coffers over the last 6 months.
At 32 thousand per half year I can think of a House full who can well afford that.
Though personally I'd let them off a fair bit by ending their Islamic Wars.
Goodness, don't the rich owe us a LOT. No wonder they would prefer to lend it to us - our own money
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Taste:
Going Underground, etc. Hope the recently bereaved liked that. Laughed through the tears, I hope.
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Stop Nicking, Griffin!
I have a strong personal grievance against Nick Griffin misappropriating the symbolic Spitfire for BNP propaganda.
Back in 1938, my father was an RAF boy apprentice who was on home leave. Walking from Stoke station to visit his girlfriend (my mother-to-be) he found his way blocked by a large crowd, spilling out of Wharf Street and into Glebe Street.
There was a "black shirt" rally in progress, being at that moment, harangued by Sir Oswald Mosley. As my father worked his way around the edges of the throng, he was spotted by Mosley, who bellowed "You, young man, tell me why you are wearing that uniform?".
With hardly a moment's thought, dad shouted back "To stop the mad buggers like you!"
A nearby, burly police sergeant swiftly escorted dad away from the ensuing riot, saying "Save your uniform for those other swine, we'll take care of these.".
A few months later, father graduated and was posted to 24 Squadron, in Kent, keeping Spitfires airborne through the Dunkirk evacuation and then the Battle of Britain.
No, Mr Griffin, you have no right whatsoever to use the image of the Spitfire to glorify (darkly reflected glory, at best) your nasty little gang of evil minded thugs, masquerading as a political party. Seventy years of democracy has not changed the esteem owed to fascistic nationalists nor their right to claim our national icons as their own. Indeed, the heritage you aspire to is anathema to the nature and spirit of all such icons.
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I have just read a few of the texts. lol Nice try - you know who you are! lol
All noise is waste. So cultivate quietness in your speech, in your thoughts, in your emotions. Speak habitually low. Wait for attention and then your low words will be charged with dynamite. - Elbert Hubbard
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35. lucien_desgai Well it is the last refuge, actually it's now the first, it's how they attack everyone who criticies. I was not implying that 'the holocaust' by which I assume you mean the Jewish one was any less a despicable crime, I was pointing out that you chose to bring it up. Why? My point was that Jews aren't special even in experiencing a holocaust. You appear to think otherwise. I have also explained, many/some Jews do still think of themselves as special, and justify it with scriptures. If they hadn't thought this way throughout the last 2000 years, how come out of all races which have travelled the world as migrants or invaders Jews are the only group who remain as separate communities. Celts, Scots, Saxons, Italians, French, Dutch, Africans, and many other races have settled these islands and most people alive today have to have DNA tests to find out what their ethnic origins are.
If you think Jewishness isn't anything to do with Israel, tell that to the many Jews who defend it no matter what is done to the Palestinians. Not all Jews act in this way, many are critics, such as Gerald Kauffman, and they get called self-hating Jews for their trouble.
You seem to have trouble separating 'Jews' from 'some Jews', why do you keep preferring it as [all] Jews? Because you can't actually deny that some Jews [I've even given reallife non-wiki examples] do indeed use Judaism as an excuse for racist elitist attitudes. The Hasidics for instance? I'm sure your Wikianswers would be of some use if that was what I'd written, but I didn't, and I'm familiar with the argument anyway so don't need to do as you ask. I would rather you based your argument on logic and rational argument rather than quotes, but the more this progresses, the more entrenched and obdurate you become. So I think it best to leave it at that.
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# 38 J W Jack Straw is not being presented up to face the BNP he is volunteering - many in his party would rather he didn't and I suspect the BBC wouldn't hold a question time with just the BNP. As for our political system being weak it's partly because the newsprint media misrepresent what people say so they have to be very careful about what they say and to who. When I was watching the US elections it was obvious the US media wouldn't do this - they might have whoe stations that are so right wing they're to the right of the BNP but they don't misrepresent politicians like some of our papers do.
Also our politicians are affraid to say something that will be used against they're leader, who may not know they've said it. One trick the media use is to ask someone what they're comment is as it relates to someone else's comment, only they lie about what was actually said, see what they can get away with, to try and get a reaction. If they don't get a reaction they may take the response back, tell the original person that the second person disagrees with them when in fact he only disagrees with what the media said he said.
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#40. jonathanmorse
What system of PR is best has been discussed since the 60's. The Liberals used to campaign for the PR system that at the time would have benefited them the most. Now the Lib/dems may have shifted to another version. The various PR systems discussed during the 60's & 70's was basically to fit around a 3 party system, from memory they wanted to avoid the joke parties like "the Monster Raving Loony Party", apparantly they were loopy, from getting in the "Mother of all Parliaments".
Now we have a whole lot more parties and any PR system would let in some nasty parties that may hold the balance of power in a future parliament.
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Since you insist.
From http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm which taught me that goyim means member of another nation. Only in recent times has it become a racist term, a bit like Paki I expect.
[Quote]
'The more insulting terms for non-Jews are shiksa (feminine) and shkutz (masculine). I gather that these words are derived from the Hebrew root Shin-Qof-Tzadei, meaning loathsome or abomination. The word shiksa is most commonly used to refer to a non-Jewish woman who is dating or married to a Jewish man, which should give some indication of how strongly Jews are opposed to the idea of intermarriage.'
This is current apologia, not historical.
Sounds racist to me.
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39. redwalt - so? Yet another opinion. Will we ever know 'the truth' whatever that is? I was merely quoting something I'd read, just as you were. Even Fry regrets his involvement in the baying pack now it seems.
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Manicunian - to add irony to injury, the spitfire in the photo the BNP used in the last election was from the famous 303 squadron - the Polish pilots ... whose descendants the BNP would like to send back to Poland.
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25. lucien_desgai
'Had I lived in nazi Germany my atheism would not have protected me from persecution and murder.'
And if I'd lived in Roman Britain [Celt] Medici Rome [atheist]or Medieval Britain as a child [Catholic] I'd not have lasted long either. We would neither have survived Pol Pot, but your point is?
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Oh yes! Get George Galloway immediately, why have the BBC no imagination? Only George could floor Griffin, seeing what a bloody mess he made of the US Congress slomos.
And he has Muslim friends, perfect.
Let the battle begin!
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#50. Sid
Sorry mate I don't want to seem pedantic here but, I am sure that a lot of these Polish pilots and other fighters choose to stay here. A lot of Poles in the Luton area choose not to return. I worked with a few, in the 60's and 70's. In fact I think there was or still is a Polish club in Luton that was for the Polish community. I don't think it is the wartime fighters, British born descendents the BNP have a problem with.
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45 Doctordolots
I'm not going to leave it at that because I won't leave racist comments unchallnged, however much you claim that you're right and I'm wrong.
I mentioned the nazis to illustrate that a jew cannot free her/himself from the threat of persecution by simply disavowing the religion. You claim to know racist and elitist jews, maybe you do. There are racist white people, racist muslims, racist hindus etc etc. All these groups have offensive language to describe people from an out-group. But you single out judaism as instrinsically racist.
Jews have maintained their communities over 2000 years because until the late twentieth century they were not allowed to assimilate. Jews were previously barred from universities and the professions even in the United States, and the history of europe is littered with pogroms, persecution and mnurder of jews.
In modern Britain and America where anti-semitism is less prevalent - and illegal - jews have been models of assimilation. Of course some jews maintain customs and traditions which I'm sure you find strange and unusual but it's their right in a free society to do so.
Jewish people do not consider themselves superior, and there is nothing in the jewish theology (which believes that all humans are equal and that the righteous among all people will enter heaven) that would encourage or permit them to do so.
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DoctorDolots
I have read all your posts.
I think that living as a Protestant was dangerous in Catholic countries like France. Hence the huge numbers of Hugenot refugees. Catholic oppression of native South Americans, inquisitions, persecution of "witches" etc.
What is common is religion, if you have a belief your god insists that you have to kill the "others", apparently.
Of course Atheists are despised by all faiths.
The all loving, peace loving, all good god, certainly generates a lot of hate.
The fact that some jews believe they are better or "chosen by god" is common in all faiths. We are right, you are wrong and will be punished here (some religions) or after death (other religions).
Both you and Lucien_Desgai have a your points.
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51 Doctordolots
My point is that anti-semitism is racism, and that my athism doesn't free me from its threat.
I was responding to your claim that "Jews have the option as we all do of ignoring their brainwashing and liberating themselves." No we don't, and certainly not in the eyes of historical and contemporary anti-semites. The nazis defined anyone with a jewish grandparent as a jew.
The jews are a people (no better or worse than any other people), regardless of whether or not they adhere to the faith.
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#54. lucien_desgai
Sorry I was writing my post while you were sending yours. I might have worded it differently.
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#54. lucien_desgai
Where were you born. If you were born in England you are English as far as I am concerned. That's all there is to it really. My dad was an immigrant from the Celtic Fringe. I don't feel half English, I was born here, I am English and proud.
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I wonder whether anti-semitism in the US has evolved into a loathing of socialism.
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55 Ln
You are of course right that all religions believe that their faith is right and all else are wrong. As an atheist I have no truck with any of it.
My beef with Doctordolots is that he claims that jews use theology to claim a superioty as a people over others. That assertion is completely false and Docdotordolots can present nothing in jewish teaching to support it.
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Can we discourage elected members of BNP when we give free airtime to devolved parties who do little but dilute the English votes in the English parliament? = I say not and airtime will prove whether the BNP has or deserves our vote.
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JM (46)
I was taking Straw's word for it. He described himself as having "drawn the short straw" with respect to having to step in a few days ago after Home Secretary Alan Johnson said He wouldn't "share a platform with a Fascist".
Parliament's weakness has nothing to do with the media. They exist symbiotically. Skilled operators like Griffin has used the media with great skill - it's done him far more good than harm. It is the lack of strong ideas, commitment and overt ideology that has damaged Parliament as well as its relationship with Government. This has left many politicians to discredit British democracy by pursuing their own financial interests and political careers. I say 'overt' ideology because the recently discredited ideology of free-market economics is one belief that is still alive and well and exists comfortably across all parties.
This gives Griffin, a man very committed to the ideology of Fascism, an open goal because, with the virtual banishment of the Left from politics, there are almost no Parliamentarians left with a strong enough argument to confront him effectively. This is a worry. The likes of David Miliband and Harriet Harman simply do not have a hope of dealing with people like Griffin.
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58 Ln
I was born in England, and englishness or britishness (I'm not really sure which, but that's another debate) is the major part of my identity but I do still feel a small ethno-cultural link to my jewish background.
In sum I'm a gay jewish atheist brit, how's that for identity politics? :o)
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#60. & 63 lucien_desgai
I know what you mean about "DoctorDolots" he certainly sailed rather close to the wind and appears to have just stayed within the rules.
I get the impression that many non religious jews have a similar indentity problem. A lady who lives over the road but not exactly opposite, told me during a conversation that she was jewish. Proper fully jewish via her mother etc. She was genuinely amazed that I never knew and never guessed. She is married to a non-jewish Englishman and she said, "well just look at me and you couldn't tell". Her mother is more concerned that she does not want to start a family.
I have no problem being English and British, my name is Scottish, so what I was born in England.
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12
You think it better that a minority hold sway over the majority?
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Bit late to add it.. To 17. At 5:35pm on 20 Oct 2009, David_McNickle.
Yes Jewish via the Mother - only because the canny jews realised that one never can be sure of who one's father is..........! ah ha!
Pithy writer.
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17. At 5:35pm on 20 Oct 2009, David_McNickle Ms Pithy Writer here again.
You can't be born Catholic (though they tried to tell us in Catholic school when we were about 7 or 8 that we had some kind of mark on our soulthat we could never get rid of... Hah ha! It took a long time to see through that old trick! Christian, Muslim and Jhedi too? Do they get special 'marks' on their souls??
So how come the Jewish people claim to be a race??? That is pretty weird. Do they have a superior mark or a different colour blood (some jews are black, some white some Russian etc....?
And what about me --- family on Mother's side Jewish immigrants in early 20th cent then somehow became Catholic... don't ask me how... phew! Maybe some somewhere were Muslim even, who could ever really know?
Confession time: ( I have had affairs with Muslims and could easily have become pregnant) would that have meant that the offspring of a such a love affair would have been 'born' muslim, catholic or Jewish??? Go on tell me... ! ha ha!
Would one have had to cut the baby open to check the race marked on the soul???? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!! how Ludicrous.
One race the Human Race surely.
Is it true that the British Government in law says Jews are a race? Since when? Is this the case in Europe too? If so, someone needs to test this out in the courts today surely! It sounds quite mad - I never heard about that before! It's quite disturbing.
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#67. pithywriter
As far as I can remember when the anti-racism laws were being drawn up the jewish lobby insisted that they were a race. I think that the sikhs also pleaded special treatment, hence they are allowed to be excused motorbike helmet rules.
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Just had a thought - is it in the DNA? Can we find Jew, Catholic, Muslim etc in the DNA???? Well? Yes or No? I need to know what I am. Someone must be studying this surely?
or perhaps Atheism is in the DNA? Ha Ha ha ha ha ha I hope so!
Ms Pithy Writer.
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67 Pithwriter
Because judaism is a non-proselytising religion it has had a fairly static gene pool down the centuries and so judaism has taken on the characteristics of a race or people.
Unlike most other faiths there is the concept of the jewish atheist (Albert Einstein, Arthur Miller and Noam Chomsky among them!) - jewish in an ethno-cultural sense but rejecting of the religious doctrine.
Sadly one of the main reasons that jews are treated as a race in our equality laws is that is how jews have always always been considered by their oppressors. As I mentioned in an earlier post nazi Germany defined a jew as someone with at least one jewish grandparent with no regard paid whatsoever to religious adherance.
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69 PW
It has been studied!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4611592.stm
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72, Lucien - if Einstein was an atheist, how come "God does not play dice"?
Also - I do not know how the "Jewish" argument started, but I'd like to point out that you are not in Nazi Germany. Nobody much is bothered much about your background, I do not think - except you.
They get it right inside you and it sticks, isnt it? But you have my personal permission not to be Jewish any more. It's one of those things, like being gay, that seems to make people want to get up and say "Do you have a problem with that?" And people say "Yes, we would like you to shut up about it". And then the whole world is against you. So you shout "why does everybody hate me for being gay/Jewish". They say shut up again - and so it goes on. You can be whatsoever you want to be. The world can go to hell. Nobody is putting you in any jail, nobody is forcing you to identify with and to announce your ancestry. But if you feel you must, you are bound to find someone to fight with, sooner or later.......
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By the way, speaking of the wikipedia article; it quotes;
"you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people"
Now, this "above" - "superiority" means "being above" - it comes from the Latin "super", as in Weston-super-mare or even "super nivem dealbabor" - I shall glow with a whiteness above that of the snow".
I do not see how it can be claimed that this is not an assertion of divinely-ordained superiority. Certainly it is hugely exclusive;
"the Creator of the Universe, who has not made us like the nations of the world and has not placed us like the families of the earth"
Of course, it is bound to irritate the rest.
Yet, in religious terms, who can doubt that the Jews ARE a chosen race? A little people that has managed to spread its religion across the entire world - there must be more nominal Judaic monotheists in the world than everyone else put together. That's just stone cold facts. Trouble is, most of them are Christians and Muslims. And, as we know, these are not proper Judaics to the Jews themselves, because they think the Messiah has been and gone.
So where then is the ground for chosen-ness? Funny old world innit?
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72 Red
I very rarely bring up my jewishness either in conversation or the blog, and I certainly don't seek or find comfort in victimhood.
On this blog I was only responding to anti-semtiic comments left by other posters. In the past I've challenged other forms of bigotry on this blog.
I've answered your point in earlier posts about why it's not possible to entirely throw off my jewishness. In many ways I would be happy to leave my jewish heritage behind but there's always an - admittedly faint - background noise of 'jews run the world / the media / the banks', 'jews think they're better than us', 'jews support israel so they should accept the consequences'. I'm stuck with it whether I like it or not.
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73 Red
The notion of the 'chosen people' refers to the supposed 'covenant with god'. Judiasm is not a literalist religion, its theology is found in the combined interpretations of rabbis and scholars throughout the centuries.
All jewish theology rejects ideas of jews as a superior people, and considers all humans to be equal in the eyes of god.
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(It's a psalm by the way; "asperge me hysoppo, domine, et super nivem dealbabor")
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74 - Lucien, if you see the point, that you do not have to identify yourself with any collective whatsoever, any more than you have to respond to someone who says "all supporters of Chelsea are idiots" - and you find yourself unable to drop that collective identity, you must also accept that the world is full of other collectivists, all of whom are similarly attached, similarly defensive and prone to want to do down members of other collectives. In other words, the choice is yours and you must accept the consequences; that others are simply doing the same. There is no ground at all for complaint.
I am glad to hear you oppose all bigotry, but I do not suppose you find it necessary, when defending, say, black people, to assert that you are black. It's rather different.
I am sad to say that, right now, here in England, Jewish schools are teaching hate for Christians and Muslims. Of course, other religious schools are doing the same (and we are all paying for them to do so). That is what collectives do. All leaders are more secure if they can get their followers to huddle together against the nasty "others".
As far as discussion of "chosenness" goes, I think the quoted texts speak for themselves and it is pointless to gainsay them. Unless you feel like going into the Hebrew?
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I forgot to say; I am fully aware of the ability of priests to decide that texts say what they do not say and do not say what they do - that is also universal. It's just that..... I can read.
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redheylin - why do you think Psalm 50 needs editing?
"Asperges me, Domine, hysoppo, et mundabor: lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor."
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wOW Sid - very good!
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Is it really "asperges"? That means "thou cleanst me" - it is many years but I had thought it was "clean me!"
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Sid, it is number 51 - you are as bad as me. See you in Sheol!
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The King James has "purge me with hyssop" - it ought to be "asperge".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Oh! In the Vulgate it IS number 50..... why is that? It is always given as "asperges" - Sid, you are right again - but all the translations "Sprinkle me" or "thou shalt sprinkle" are incorrect; the first should be "asperge" and the second "aspergebis" - or am I going wrong somewhere (again)?
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DD 52, What do you mean by US Congress slomos?
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1
Psalms 9 and 10 in the Hebrew are combined into Psalm 9 in the Greek
Psalms 114 and 115 in the Hebrew are combined into Psalm 113 in the Greek
Psalm 116 in the Hebrew is divided into Psalms 114 and 115 in the Greek
Psalm 147 in the Hebrew is divided into Psalms 146 and 147 in the Greek
Christian traditions vary:
Protestant translations are based on the Hebrew numbering;
Eastern Orthodox translations are based on the Greek numbering;
Roman Catholic official liturgical texts follow the Greek numbering, but modern Catholic translations often use the Hebrew numbering, sometimes adding, in parenthesis, the Greek numbering as well.
2
Asperges is (for some reason) the 2nd p. future ind of "aspergere". King James translation incorrect. Thanks Sid.....
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At least, incorrect vis a vis the Latin.... life is complicated.
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DD 24, Yeah, anglers just prefer to torture fish by having a sharp hook go through their mouth, then pulling them around through the water. And don't bring out the old 'red herring' (geddit?) that fish can't feel pain.
On the other hand, there is a window in Winchester Cathedral dedicated to Isaak Walton, who wrote the Compleat Angler, so fishing can't be all that bad.
http://www.britannia.com/tours/winchester/images/walton.jpg
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Yes indeed - asperges and lavabis are both straightforward futures (2nd person singular) - "you will sprinkle', 'you will wash'. I've no idea about the Hebrew.
We find the same numbering problem with the ten commandments - for Catholics and Lutherans, Thou shalt not kill is the fifth commandment; for everyone else it's the sixth.
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M 43, Sid 50 (the poster who doesn't answer, only gives opinions), Being an American, I prefer the P-51 Mustang. Better range and nicer looking. See, we can all be 'racist' in our own way. (might work, might not)
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/wonder_of_flight/images/p51mustang_500.jpg
Pleeeeeeze Sid, no Wikied specs for the Mustang. I know them.
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Purge, asperges, Aspergers, asparagus. Just a coincidence? I think we should be told. Sid?.....
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Purge - from classical Latin purgare (to make pure)
asperges - 2nd person future indicative of aspergere, to sprinkle
asparagus - 'A plant (Asparagus officinalis, family Liliaceæ) cultivated for the sake of its vernal shoots, which form a well-known delicacy of the table.' from Greek aspharagos
Asperger's - from the name of Hans Asperger
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David (91):
Yes, the P51 was pretty good... once they stuck a Rolls Royce Merlin engine in it...
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Pithy@34: I thought the ex woman MP was appalling. She took on the job and then found working interfered with her private life. Wasn't there another supposdely highly intelligent female MP in a top spot who also complained that she was missing out on family life and not being with her children?
Women who take demanding jobs, in any profession, should carefully weigh up how this will impact on their family and home life. Some of us had/have no choice - we had/have to work in order to survive financially. Those, like this woman MP, who can choose are fortunate and I do wish these women, who have the luxury of choice, wouldn't bellyache about making the wrong one. It seems they want the kudos of a top job without having the common sense to see what impact it will have.
Parliament was not set up as a potential 'job-share' facility for working women. I believe they have a creche (under utilised) and we have prime evidence that the expenses given to MPs, of either sex, are substantial enough to compensate for any 'inconvenience' their jobs may bring.
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On the funeral piece - a very good contribution from the Humanist lady, but really - could you not find a clergyman in this country with a decent phone connection? I was looking forward to hearing the alternative view and was disappointed
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90 Sid: "I've no idea about the Hebrew". And you will notice that my request for enlightenment on this score has been removed. It broke house rules, isn't that weird? But anyhow, thanks for giving us the Latin, you old cleric! (ooh naughty, I'll get banned) I still cannot remember what conjugation of -ere has es as the future indicative. Maybe I shall ask a friend.
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redheylin - I can be your friend! It's the third conjugation: there are two -ere conjugations, with different emphases - 2nd is -Ere (e.g. habEre), 3rd is with emphasis on previous syllable (e.g. sUmere). All clear?
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