The BNP on Question Time.
What do you think? 
BBC News coverage here.
1055 UPDATE: How about this perspective? "Reporters Without Borders is in full support with the BBC's decision to interview Nick Griffin, MEP from the controversial British National Party. Under the human rights of free speech and press, it is none other than an obligation for an international and comprehensive media outlet, like the BBC, to exercise its professional responsibility to interview all MPs and MEPs regardless of personal viewpoint. It is the same act of free press that allows the BBC, and many other UK media outlets, to function uncensored, providing all news freely; something very special and unique to the United Kingdom. This same press freedom must be practised by the media outlets that benefit from it; putting aside all personal viewpoints. It is then that the UK media sets world precedence, by upholding a free press which allows for democratic and uncensored reporting, thought and debate. Only under press freedom, can freedom of scrutiny then take place, and the ugly face of racism and hate can be seen fully and then just as passionately, rejected."
Heather Blake
Reporters Without Borders"
1245 UPDATE: I'm grateful to LordBedd who's written on this strand pointing us to an article by Margaret Hodge. As it happens she is booked to appear on PM tonight. You can read the article here.
Listen to PM
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I hope Nick Griffin will be thoroughly challenged on tonight's programme. Is David sharpening up his knives, I wonder?
Last night's Newsnight discussion (which I just caught) was absorbing in a discussion of how the BNP has been able to increase it's support and if it's available on iPlayer, I'd strongly recommend others to watch it.
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Here's a good list of questions to start with:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/19/bnp-nick-griffin-question-time
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Political engagement is required. The ANL approach of no platform is demonstrably failing to stop the BNP gaining support; like it or not they have attracted around one million votes. Argument, engagement and political responses are now essential.
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We live in a democracy - like it or not - that means free speech. All those who say NO to the BNP being on this programme - what are you afraid of? Are you suggesting that this party will gain a stronger foothold politically? There may be a minority in this country who will vote for them, probably not for their policies but as a protest vote against the total lack of a coherent immigration policy of the current government. So be it. Have faith in the British way of life and our instincts of fair play. We have had more than enough of being told what to do, what to believe - it's time for everyone to be able to say what they believe.
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I hope Nick Griffin will be thoroughly challenged on tonight's programme. Is David sharpening up his knives, I wonder?
I'm sure that those in the BBC management who have supported his appearance will be hoping this happens as a sop to their collective conscience. But I somehow doubt that the majority of the BNP's target audience will be sat there tonight thinking "I see now that Griffin's policy of hate has been thoroughly discredited by the forensic nature of his questioning".
In the meantime, all BBC staff are once again tarnished by a management decision. So it's not just a matter of what we, as listeners and viewers think, it's a matter of what you, the BBC staff think.
Do you stand by the decision Eddie?
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Thank you for the heads up Big Sister, I'll check Newsnight on iPlayer later.
Isn't there a bit of contradiction here that we consistently hear from Radio 4 that those that are attracted to fundamentalist, radical Islam need to be bought out and have their warped take on the religion and the world challenged and discussed? Why isn't it the same for the BNP?
We want to do touchy feely hand wringing intellectual debate with those that may be harbouring thoughts of their own personal jihad in the UK, but we'll just shout down the BNP?
I'm not a fan of Peter Hain or this government, but he did say something this year that improved my opinion of him.
I'm not sure those that propagated the lie of Saddam's WMDs and then decapitated the BBC for daring to query the validity of the claims can now shout down the BBC for letting the BNP on air?
If I am hung up about the Gilligan and Kelly affair it's because I was driving up through Ireland on a sunny Saturday morning when Ben Bradshaw beasted the Today programme about the importance of 'double sourcing'. It's etched on my memory.
The issue was discussed on the Westminster Hour on Sunday night. The BNP have more elected representatives than Clwyd Cymru?
Do we want democracy? We didn't get a vote on the Lisbon Treaty and then the Irish had two votes as they voted the wrong way the first time. We only want democracy when it goes our way?
When democracy is used, abused, skewed and sold can we really shout down these people when they have been elected?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I was wondering when you lot were going to chime in, just couldn't stay away, could you? No interviews with Griffin on PM for the last couple of nights, or anyone else from the party. I really thought you might leave this one alone. I guess Question Time needs all the plugs it can get.
So what about Ukip? Don't we have our BBC et al - accepted anti-immigration party? To think, they got about 13 seats in the recent European elections, and now they are off the radar. To all the people who voted for them, I hope you are happy with your wasted vote. Think of what would have happened if you had voted BNP. If you want something done about immigration, vote BNP, otherwise, forget it.
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What is the point of saying 'What do you think' if you then delete my answer?
My removed post at 7 above referred to an article on the BNP by Michael Rosen in the Indie - type that into any search engine.
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7. Woss?
There is something bizarre about the outrage this is causing when one of the results of the offensive prank calls from Brand and Ross was Manuel's grand daughter appearing in discussion with Portillo and Abbott on that political show that's broadcast by the BBC after Question Time?
So be distantly related to someone that was once famous and manage to have sex with someone that is famous and you can get a five minute slot on BBC1, but be a democratically elected and you can't?
Should I risk a deposit at the next election standing as an Indpendent or just have sex with someone famous?
Any offers? I'd prefer to hear from women really.
Regarding the prank call, belittling the achievements of the elderly don't strike me as comedy gold, and could well have been bullying.
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Just in case it was a copyright issue, here's the link again without the quote:
Michael Rosen, here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bbc-will-lose-trust-for-giving-airtime-to-bnp-1806876.html
I think Rosen's point may well be that what Nick Griffin says tonight won't be comedy gold either.
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When the NF (National Front) got prominent in the early 70s I went as an NCCL Observer to a NF demo in Coventry.
Among the things I noticed:
How pleased the plain clothes police there were at the turn out. 'Much better than last year, Five times as many this time'
....and, when the resurgence had fizzled out a few years later....from a local community worker in Walsall:
'Oh, the membership meltewd away to nothing when they began to realise they were all really Tories. So they joined them instead'
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Sid (9) - It's pretty stupid of the mods removing your reference to Michael Rosen when you consider that the piece was covered in the Today programme this morning. Yes, that's the Today programme on BBC Radio.
The moderation on this blog is ridiculous - arbitrary and inconsistent.
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PrestonFirmlie, I agree.
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I'm still amazed at the number of commentators (and politicians) coming out of the woodwork and decrying the appearance of the BNP on Question Time.
If they were still an insignificant party with perhaps a couple of councillors - perhaps. But they have two members in the European Parliament, which makes them all the more serious - as it means several thousand people have voted for them (many of whom will have probably been taken in by the party's propaganda, without reading its policies / manifesto).
Admittedly both the Blue Party and the Red Party leave a lot to be desired (particularly since the Red Party is tired and ineffectual, and the Blue Party seems to be inventing policies [which often contradict historical ones!] on the fly), but that's no reason to vote for an openly xenophobic party (who are currently in legal trouble over their admission criteria).
Then, even more stupidly, I heard some people protesting that the BBC were going to allow some BNP supporters in the audience. Well, Duh! People have actually voted for this party, so surely it's only right and fair they get a chance to air their grievances at the main parties, in the same way that supporters of the other parties have a chance to air their grievances at the BNP. Besides, it gives the non-BNP members of the panel even more chance to shoot holes in BNP policies.
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Copied over from another thread, didn't know there was to be a special BNP thresd.
I used to be an avid watcher of "Question Time" but stopped making the effort a long time ago. Unless there were certain people I wanted to hear. I actually prefer "Any Questions". AQ has only 4 guests and only the person asking the question gets to respond, this means that more questions get asked and the programme moves at faster pace. QT on the other hand has to many people on the panel some of whom are celebs.
However, Qt has had unelected leaders of pressure groups, unelected spokespeople from religions (some of whom are homophobic, or mysogynist), some one from the green party (they have no MP's). So it is simply wrong to refuse the BNP from Question Time, it's as simple as that.
Nick Griffin may be odious, but a lot of people find Alex Salmond odious and he represents a party that wants to speak for less than 10% of the licence payers. If the BBC feels comfortable having Welsh, Scottish or Irish nationalists on then you cannot deny the British Nationalist Party the same opportunity to express their views.
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Watch out for QT early doors.
The programme suddenly swirched broadcasting time to 9 pm when MPs were getting real roastings over expenses and storming Parliament to kick the scroungers out was the very next stage.
They moved it forward, cos the programme was, then currently, SO popular, it deserved a better slot time, they said.
Thus they succeeded in LOSING half the audience, who hadn't heard of the change.
(I found out by reading a warning from CossackGirl on the Beach - which I caught up with 1/2 an hour into the programme).
The change of time took some of the steam out of the wholly reasonable intense anger, I think.
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Last week on R4 in the evening there was some feature on how Labour were looking to spend £20M on community projects to lure people away from possibly voting for the BNP. Was there a reporter from Cannock?
So we can save £12M on training for the Territorial Army, but we can spend £20M in an attempt to stop people voting BNP? Any comparisons with the £480M in aid to Pakistan try and educate them and lure them away from violent fundamentalism?
Isn't the message vote BNP, or say you'll vote BNP and then you'll get lots of money thrown at your local community?
Why isn't the money spent in those communities already? Perhaps it's because they don't chime with the pet projects of Council leaders earning 3 or 4 times what an MP does? Or the areas aren't trendy and off the radar?
Back to the £12M saving on the Territorial Army training. How many times have we heard from those war zones we're pouring money and blood away on that the police and the army in those nations needs supporting, training and reforming? So we have the evidence of why the police and military are important in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq but we can't see how important our own military and part time reservists are?
The military? They're not trendy are they?
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Let me turn the question around. If the BNP were banned from Question Time, and became a 'proscribed organisation', then how much longer would it take for Peter Hain and the rest of the latte sipping classes to wake up and smell the coffee that 'wishing away' the BNP is not a strategy and that they have to get off their backsides and actually DO SOMETHING to make the lives of those voting for that party, or who have stopped voting for a mainstream party, better ?
Many people also voted for UKIP who didn't want to come out of Europe but who refused to swallow the Labour line that they didn't need a vote on Lisbon when they had promised one. One could argue that people should not vote for parties whose policies they don't fully agree with, but that is not how democracy works. People vote for parties who are the 'best fit' with their views. We have to 'wake up' and realise that for many people the BNP is the 'best fit' for their views - and simply not showing them on Question Time will do nothing to help persuade those people to see the error of their ways unless we offer them a better and more helpful alternative.
Vox populi, vox deo. Ignore them at your peril.
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Sorry, but I must also point out the fallacy of Michael Rosen saying we have no right to hear these people. Does he not realise people can log on to the BNP website 24 hours a day, 7 days a week ??
What is his strategy for dealing with that ?? Up until now, people have not bothered coming up with a counter-argument because they've assumed that they can repress the message - but in a democracy they cannot. To be honest even if we were in a totalitarian state it would be possible to find a workaround to access the website on the internet.
One has to light a candle in the darkness - cursing it is not enough. In the US of A, all sorts of views are available on 'talk radio' which would not be broadcastable on the BBC - people have to 'deal with it' and just make sure they keep their powers of argument and intellectual faculties well exercised to put across a better case.
We seem to have lost this in this country, and if we cannot beat the rather feeble matador of Nick Griffin, ducking and diving and changing his views like a weather vane, then maybe we deserve to go to hell in a handbasket. Maybe our schools, which have an 'all must have prizes' culture has fostered this inability to 'win an argument' as, poor diddums, it means that there has to be a loser.
How on earth does anyone learn to become a lawyer these days if that is what our school system is teaching ??
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When David Dimbleby can be a bit more even-handed and let panellists answer the questions asked, rather than his own, I might stop switching Question Time off after 10 minutes.
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# 5.
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Ha! BBC in "not so keen on awkward questions" shock. I'll take it that's a "yes", then.
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Didn't the BBC make that excellent multiple part documentary The Century of Self about how the shrinks and marketing people colluded to convince us that we need to continually be consumers?
Isn't a bit insulting to think that everyone that watches Griffin on QT will then automatically vote BNP? Labour think that if we're capable of electing them in then we are also capable of voting for the BNP? If they can't spot that New Labour are Tories then they may not be able to spot that the BNP are racists?
Thinking for yourself is something now rarely done now due to the Education, Education, Education policies of the last decade, and the nanny state where everyone is responsible for our actions but ourselves? 'I only voted for the BNP because you didn't send a letter to me telling me not to'?
Do they really think we buy every product we see advertised in magazines and on the TV, or on Radio 4?
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i am from America and i have learned throughout my life that all need to be heard . i feel that if we are to accomplish any evolution we must not practice censorship even negative. it shows the feelings that are evident in the public hidden eye and by allowing those to show how they feel to others, it shows how the culture is willing to change even in a small way towards a more positive humanity at least in this age. maybe
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#19. & #20 lordBeddGelert
We don't always see eye to eye on many things but I do agree with you regarding your comments on the BNP.
The BNP tried to get support in this area at the past EU election and in their leaflets they repeated 2 soundbites from the main parties. They were: "British Jobs for British workers" (Labour soundbite) and "It's not racist to talk about immigration" (Tory soundbite).
Now all we heard about was Labour's soundbite being used by the BNP.
I have no idea what the BBC luvvy, Michael Rosen has said regarding the BNP but he does not live in areas seen as targets of the BNP support.
Their message is comming through loud and clear already and victimhood is exactly what they will use.
The BNP could easily go to the European Court of Human rights and have their rights to free speech imposed on the BBC.
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20. 'Sorry, but I must also point out the fallacy of Michael Rosen saying we have no right to hear these people. Does he not realise people can log on to the BNP website 24 hours a day, 7 days a week ??'
But why would you want to when there's all that porn?
It's a valid point. Chase some drunk teen off of your car at 2AM and he may return 30 minutes later in a car with 2 bigger mates that he's summoned by mobile phone?
It's the same sort of mobile phone, email, p2p we've seen used in political protests in Iran and Ukraine and similarly used by criminal networks.
Technology can go some way to mending the dumbed down education system bought about by those that went to University for free pulling up the ladder behind them?
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The New Statesman magazine have just tweeted a link to an article by Sunny Hundal on the Liberal Conspiracy blog (the article also appears in The Guardian - that should be enough info to find it yourself!), which has 20 questions he believes the BNP should be asked.
In the light of their recent legal problems, I'd vote for number 5:
5. Would Griffin, Andrew Brons and all other members of the BNP be willing to submit to multiple independent DNA tests to confirm that none of them have any non-European ancestry?
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bbc-will-lose-trust-for-giving-airtime-to-bnp-1806876.html
Interesting that the Indie's political correspondent shares a name with that 'shock jock' from America who is on Jacqui Smith's 'Banned from the UK' list..
Wonder if he has any problems coming back from a weekend in Paris ??
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Is that the same Jacqui Smith that tried with holding information about when and where her protection officers were on duty as it contradicted her expenses claims?
It's a tough call. Vote for a load of fraudulent liars that have trouble with the truth or the BNP?
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Thought provoking article by Margaret 'Enver' Hodge..
http://www.labourlist.org/bnp-margaret-hodge-where-people-are-at?utm_source=taomail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2480%20Communication%2C%20Thu%2022nd%20Oct%202009&tmtid=23126-2480-6-1-1063
I'm not her biggest fan, but she does make some very important points here.
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30 - Margaret Hodge will be on PM tonight.
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Thank you for the link lordBeddGelert.
I'm not sure I agree with Hodge about the loss of industrial jobs. Look at the people on the 22.00 R4 News last night from Royal Mail's facility across the road from their place at Severn Beach, Bristol. They were foreign. Were they students?
How many Royal Mail employees get working family tax credits to boost their incomes? It's all very well driving down wages but the taxpayer just boosts their wages anyway. Who benefits by busing in migrants or foreigners to sort the Royal Mail backlog? Do they get working family tax credits?
So if you don't buy into the dream, or scam that a huge debt is worth it for a degree that may have all the academic value that O levels once had you're forced to compete with workers for the minimum legal wage?
'We're a nation of creatives, we can let China build our new vacuum cleaners'. But we're not all creative design gurus are we? What jobs can be done by those of us that aren't James Dyson?
We can't all be James Dyson, the same as we can't all be Jacqui Smith or Margaret Hodge.
Posties and manual workers are only worth £5.80 ph? But smiling suited types that peddle debt with all the skills of your average check out person and bring about a global economic disaster deserve much more?
Are the jobs there? Do they get the education to do the jobs?
Royal Mail and this government have embarked on a race to the bottom. It's not just a loss of industrial jobs as Hodge says it's also in part due to government policies.
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That will make for an interesting interview, Eddie, as she's probably had her eye on that particular ball for quite a while.
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Nick Griffin and the BNP should be allowed to appear on Question Time on the basis, "give them enough rope..."
I still believe that no matter how odious a view, I would die for the right of smeone to express it.
A few years ago I was appalled at the dawn raids on Nick Griffin and other BNP members. It only reinforces their position as victims.
Ban nobody, ever, and let them show their true colours. I fully expect Griffin will offend most viewers and show himself for the stupid, bigoted little man he is. To try to silence him gives him cedibility he so doesn't deserve.
And, to show some bias and generalistion here, does anybody who votes BNP ever watch Question Time, or consume any sensible media, ever?
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lordBeddGelert, thank you for the link.
Some of it is making sense, and I'll re-read Hodges points later. But she referred to Managerial competence. I don't associate that with Labour. We don't know what Labour stand for? Well they've inconsistent policies that contradict each other and make it up on the hoof depending what the pollsters tell them. So no Labour initiatives are knee jerk reactions to Newspaper headlines?
How do we compare the way British residents or citizens have been victims of extraordinary rendition with the BNP? The BNP are fascists, but the current regime are only fascists when the US asks them to be? The BNP are fascists but this regime will extradite Gary McKinnon via a unilateral extradition treaty?
'Affordable Housing'? What does that mean? Where I live 'Affordable Housing' is 7-8 times what was the local average wage and that's for a flat. This government is pursuing policies to ramp up the unsustainable property bubble once again because the whole economy of the nation is now based on house values.
Yeah, Labour don't represent me and their policies are highly unpalatable and do little to help the most disadvantaged.
Labour policies? Shutting Remploy? They shut Remploy just before hundreds of young men are returning from Afghanistan minus limbs. It's offensive. So we can't care for the disabled, but we can keep greedy, inept banksters in new Aston Martins? Shutting Job Centres just before the bubble predictably was about to burst. Managerial competence?
I don't like this government. They've trashed this country and the poorest are left to pay for it. The poverty gap hasn't widened under Labour?
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'Vote Labour because we're not the BNP'?
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You could ask her about this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5425232/MPs-expenses-Margaret-Hodge-hired-her-former-press-officer-for-PR-support.html#
and point out that the real problem is that the political class is dishonest and corrupt. (For instance, is she REALLY entitled to 93 thousand?)
Equally, it fails to provide an analysis for working class peopel to live their class solidarity.
Margaret Hodge comes across as a member of a class that now should be at the bottom, not the top.
Whilst class injustice in work continues and the middle classes who dominate the media channels use every excuse to protect their position, and so work menially, the working class will never fulfill its historical role of inverting the social hierarchy, with itself as pivot.
Oh, I do believe
Deep in my heart
The first SHALL be last
Some day
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7765484.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/hereford/worcs/8305209.stm
Who are the fascists?
Why does this need to be covered by primary legislation?
Why can't this government just comply with the EU ruling? Why can't we just have the same system as the Scottish? 'Managerial competence'? Perhaps if they could work towards that if they weren't a load of curtain twitching control freaks?
Turning Britain into some second rate facsimile of the former Eastern Bloc is a Labour policy? They want to know all about us, but want us knowing all about their fraudulent expenses claims?
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LBG: "Sorry, but I must also point out the fallacy of Michael Rosen saying we have no right to hear these people."
No need to apologise - he didn't say that.
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I would like to hear Nick Griffen on Radio 4's Any Questions. I will not see Question Time tonight, but I would like to hear him so that I can make up my own mind on his debating prowess.
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Mad hatter - isn't this crazy?
"The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled in 2008 that holding innocent people's DNA profiles indefinitely was "unnecessary".
"Following the ruling, the government said police forces in England and Wales had to remove innocent people's DNA record within six to 12 years of creating them.
"Chief police officers can also delete profiles from the national database."
Personally, I'd say six to 12 years was indefinitely. I'm also concerned about individuals having the ability to delete profiles (thinking funny handshakes and all that).
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How can we be fighting in Afghanistan while this government go around harvesting DNA from people for their database for the slightest excuse?
When they know who the criminals are they're let out early, or given community service tasks so what value is there in having all that data?
I don't have any qualms with the Scottish system. Why can't we have the Scottish system?
It's racist. This government is pursuing a policy that treats the English, Welsh and Northern Irish worse than the Scottish?
Our lads are fighting in Afghanistan so we can be treated worse than the Scottish. Why does it need to be debated by a load of expenses fiddlers? Reducing the cost of government? Just comply with the EU ruling!
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EtE (Mac) Very balanced. You have a chip on BOTH shoulders!
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One of the BNP's major claims is about immigration. I haven't got time to examine the statistics fully, but it would be interesting to know their views on the 991,000 Americans given leave to remain in the UK last year...or Eastern Europeans, Australians and others they'd regard as of "white" descent...
You can find the official Home Office "Control of Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom 2008" here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum-stats.html
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Margaret Hodge can explain how a police officer taking a DNA swab from a Fireman after a motorist has driven into the back of their Fire Engine while they're attending an RTA leads to a 'cohesive society'?
This idea of DNA swabbing people for the slightest excuse came from within the police, or this government?
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I havent been on this blog for ages because I got fed u with every debate descending into a discussion of social class with only scattered posts of the actual topic of the day. I'm thinking of the 'latte sipping classes' referred to above and other comments in this thread you don't have to look hard to find. Thanks, iteresting and helpful.
With regard to the BNP on questions time, I agree with Nick Betts and a few others here who have pointed out that in a free and democratic society we must offer freedom of expression to all and not prohibit anyone's voice on the basis of its offensive nature (apologies NB if you feel I have taken your point beyond what you meant) as the point is that no one is in a position to decide what's offensive and what isn't except from their own point of view.
Give them enough rope, as someone else said, give them the opportunity to present their point of view. Having said that, individuals can vote with their feet. What do you think about someone saying: "If I were on question time tonight as a questioner I would preface my question with: 'This is a question for eveyone on the panel except the BNP...' They should be allowed to soap box and broadcast without establishment interference, but we as individuals can also say I disagree with you and will not enter dialogue with you."
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I'm still pondering Hodge's thoughts on Labour List. We've offshored many jobs on the basis of costs. If we take a task from a UK employee and send it abroad that person will have to find other employment.
Last night on the R4 news we had the people at the Strike busting Royal Mail alternative sorting warehouse across the road from their usual premises at Severn Beach Bristol. Having lived in Bath, I'd wager the accents of the strike busting agency workers wasn't Bristolian.
If we let immigrants come here to work, further taking jobs from the indigeonous population how are we to work, or grow the country out of recession? Surely that can only work if you somehow ditch, cancel, offshore the unemployed that aren't contributing to the economy?
Sending jobs abroad, and giving jobs over to migrants gives the BNP and those tempting to vote that way credence?
Also it seems that immigration is only good? What about those slaving away in our fields and accommodated in shoddy digs that go with the job? Is that good? Is that good for them? Look at the Morecambe Bay Cockle Pickers that drowned. It was reported at the time that they authorities were aware of them, and their digs but didn't do anything about it because of the hassle it would cause trying to house and accommodate them. The authorities turned a blind eye because interfering would have caused too much hassle or outcry.
As I am sure prostitution disliking Harriet Harman would agree not all immigration is good. How many of the rented houses turned into Cannabis 'grow ops' are operated by immigrants from the far east?
Immigration can't be discussed because evening mentioning it means you're a racist?
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I fail to see how politicians can complain about a democratically elected political party, whether or not the views of that party are morally abhorent. If they don't want to give a voice to the BNP, then they should take steps to proscribe them.
At the same time, they should think about why the best part of 1,000,000 UK voters felt that they were better off voting for the BNP than for one of the 'regular' parties. Or maybe they think those voters are all racists or poor misguided fools!!
To those complaining politicians, I say 'listen to the electorate, then sort your own house out, so people won't want to vote BNP'.
No, I don't like the BNP either, but politicians need to put up, or shut up.
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LM - by indigeonous population, do you mean 'everyone with a british passport', or eveyone whose family has been born and brought up in the UK since the year X (in which case you should supply the X), or something else. that's a phrase I never quite understand. What about those with British citizenship currently residing overseas? What about Europeans who have unrestricted movement and employment rights in the UK?
Maybe this is something we should get NG to clarify tonight - who exactly is 'ok' in his Britain to have a job or get benefits etc.
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I thought Dianne Abbot made an interesting point when she said she appeared on QT 22 years ago. As the first black woman MP, people would call upon that appearance as a signal that women, and black folk, were part of the political landscape in a very real way. Of course no one remembers anything she said, just that she was there.
I don't envisage Nick Griffin or the allocated BNP supporters in the audience being anything other than slick, and not presenting any of the course and less palatable underbelly of the BNP which we all know of and fear. It would be nice to think he would be put in his place, at least for posterity sake. Some of Dimbleby's waspish barbs would be welcome. Shame Ian Hislop isn't appearing, he knows how to jab the unpleasant in a satisfactory manner.
Anyway, well done BBC for providing, and publicising, some eagrely anticipated theatre.
For that is what it is.
And that is what we like.
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I think that the aim of all the other panellists as well as the audience is to see if they can get Mr Griffin to cry.
Now that would be good TV
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Nice of you to ask us twice.
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/10/the_am_glass_box_103.shtml#P87398286
gives you some of the flavour that we, the people, are up against*****.
We are supposed to support the 630 odd members of the House of Commons, when we KNOW they are all either directly dishonest, or have been turning a blind eye to the dishonesties of their collegues, or have failed as legislators in respect of...MP's renumeration, or worst of all have failed to address in detail and in full what the living standards of each and every one of us should be. Junket holidays, as revealed by TV documentaries, second jobs, often solicitors, directorships - highly paid for no work because we voted for them, retirement perks. Life is a sinecure for them. This mob has no right to govern at ALL.
They will hide behind the BNP, hoping the BNP will give them respectability.
'We're not racist'
But they continue to protect those social classes who luxuriate from the effects of racism.
So, we hear on your programme from the likes of Hodge, see my post 37 here, above.
To bring about justice the anti-Nazi protestors should forget Wood Lane and protest instead at the effects of snob schools, a clutch of which are no more than a couple of miles away in Hammermith. When the silver spoon 16 year olds there go and get proper jobs, then, when the bin woman and the council gardener and the lavatory attendant and the street cleaning operator and the factory hands come from the class they should come from... then the old white working class will see and know that that a new social role, a mix of genuine education, management, labour and social policy making, is upon them. Not taking off your clothes revealing the old Monty , or swimming the Channel (touching though that latter film was) but ensuring that every race and class lives as it should.
The last, the wretched of the earth, shall be first.
*****Though my spelling could improve.
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People protesting outside the BBC and preventing Nick Griffen from speaking are demonstrating against democracy. However absurb and even obnoxious the BNP's views might be, you cannot deny that many people have voted for the party. Ken Livingstone, who was voted OUT of office, has been given air time today in a bid to stop someone who was voted IN to office appearing on air. Protesting against free speech is fascism.
Steve Ellis, Whitstable, Kent
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The police should be lenient on these protesters who are trying to stifle democracy. Perhaps some of the protesters who had to be "wrestled to the ground" should be charged with something.
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The mob outside the BBC sound like fascists. Talk about doing Griffin's job for him. He's already scored heavily without yet appearing.
They certainly believe in the mob as a tool of suppression, and appear not to understand the concept of free speech in common with most of the government.
Well said Margaret Hodge, one who has actually listened to people.
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This country hates the white working class, we are treated like a commodity that can fight its wars, build its roads and dismissed as scum.
Written out of its history, ignored in education and political circles - class is colour blind but the middle classes divided us into ethnic groups, and yet we faced the same problems - this has been done to keep the white working class down and demonised - any time we speak out it can be dismissed as racism - because they divided us.
what's the outcome - the rise of the BNP. well done the middle classes - do your protests and divide our communities further rather than addressing the cause of grievances. You are driving more to the BNP by your very actions - wake up!
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I have just heard Margaret Hodge give a very reasoned arguement as to why Nick Griffin should be on Question Time. If you cannot substantiate your own position by reasoned arguement, then i can see why you wouldn't want to argue with him. I expect my elected representatives to be able to refute his claims and show him to be the bigot that we all know him to be. People in Britain need to be able to hear all sides of the arguement so that, according to democratic principles, they can make up their own minds. To prevent him speaking makes him more powerful, as there is no-one to challenge him in the public forum.
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I am not a supporter of Nick Griffin or the BNP, but the outraged bleating from New Labour is unbelieveable.
If you could take the programme back 100 years, then the panel would be 2 Conservatives and 2 Liberals and they would be onjecting to the Socialist Labour Party being on the programme as they were a bunch of communists who want to wreck industry and bring down the nation. Strange how they forget their early roots once they are in charge.
Well they certainly succeeded in bringing down the country and they certainly wrecked industry. Too many pay claims from the workers, too many strikes, no company could promise a firm delivery date or give a price due to the unions constantly working themselves. It wasn't Maggie that ruined British Industry, it was the so called working man with his greed and exorbitant demands that chased orders to foreign countries.
Finally those demonstrating outside the BBC are worse than the BNP, as they seek to stop the right of free speech to Nick Griffin, and prevent him entering the building, but demand their right to be heard. Not very spontanious, you don't get placards printed and made up in a couple of hours.
Rifleman_01
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Wasn't it Margaret Hodge who encouraged the BNP by agreeing that immigrants were jumping the housing queue? (Even though they're not.)
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Oh course he should be on QT - prefer to hear him explain his views and be cross examined rather than Will Young !! At least Griffin is elected.
Th reason that the BNP is seen as an alternative to the main 3 parties is that they are all happy to leave the disposed and desperate to live in poverty and on sink estates. They all allow large scale unchecked immigration and have allowed the politically correct brigade to run rough shot over the indigenous population. So this part of the electorate see the BNP as a credible alternative and 'fighting' for them.
Lets see Nick Griffin defend his policies against the other parties and also let him challenge the 3 main parties.
Democaracy rules
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So is Peter Hain another one of these politicians who goes on and on about the importance of free and open elections and democracy then complains when it produces people like Nick Griffin. I loathe what this man stands for (Griffin that is, I just loathe the actions of Hain's America-loving party) but in a democracy you have to accept that other people may hold very different views to your own, that's the price you pay for letting people vote.
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I'm not sure what I mean by 'indigeonous population' but with jobs being offshored by the public and private sector, and people coming here solely to fill jobs then surely there won't be enough jobs to go round?
Get loads of debt getting a degree so you can compete with someone from abroad wiping bottoms or sorting mail at £5.80ph?
I am not sure Eddie would want to blow any of his pay hiring us as his 'posse'?
Which countries in the world are thinking 'we must create jobs for the British'? Perhaps one of the European ones? Or following the Americans into wars that can't be won is a job creation scheme?
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I think the protesters should be charged. And DNA swabbed.
In the list of taboos does immigration fit between incest and paedophilia?
I think Hodge did a bit of mud slinging there. The BNP lied? Well your party took us into Iraq on a lie didn't it?
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Much as I do not like the BNP and its unspoken, hidden policies I wonder if the UAF are truly the dangerous organisation here. They seem to want free speech but on their own terms. As a left wing organisation should we allow them to have air time, seeing that their history comes from the old socialist/communist dogma of Stalin Soviet Union who killed untold millions of people who dared to utter free speech, or were ethnically cleansed from certain areas of the USSR?
Free speech is free speech and the UAF don’t want us to have it, unless its on their terms.
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It's been a while since I've been on the PM blog, I should visit more often. I'm not going to repeat the arguments put here, other than to say I'm in the "give them enough rope.." camp. What I do want express is my disappointment, again, at some of the political classes total inability to grasp the basic concept of what a "right" is. Under normal, i.e. Not at war, circumstances, if it doesn't apply to all it's not a right, it's a priviledge. The BNP represents certain ideas, that is all. Abhorent ideas, but still just ideas. If he breaks the law, inciting racial hatred for example, then the police can do their stuff.
I blame the idiots who decided to "punish the mps" by not voting in the euro elections - plonkers! The BNP polled less votes than last time but, because of the low turnout, had a higher percentage.
That'll show them!
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Does anyone else listen to More or Less, the excellent Radio 4 programme on Statistics and their misuse?
Didn't the end the current series end by mentioning the health lobby calling for moves to ban advertising for alcoholic drinks?
What did he say? 'Repeat after me, correlation isn't causation'?
Aren't they doing the same thing by trying to tell us that Nick Griffin appearing on TV will lead to more racist attacks?
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Can't wait for to-nights question time,there must be millions like me
waiting to what Nick Griffin has to say,he will liven up the debate
on this normally dull programme that has the same old politicians
week in week out churning out the same old tripe.
If there is anybody out there that loves this Country
you must take time out to listen to question tine to-night
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On one hand we have Mr Griffin a man most of us would consider a very unwelcome dinner guest but at least he's prepared to expose his views to public debate (and ridicule) and to give the rest of the chance to see exactly what he and the BNP are really all about. On the other hand we have a mob who would deny all of us that opportunity, presumably they don't trust the rest us to see Mr Griffin for what he is. So who's the fascist? Jack Straw is right and Peter Hain is wrong, the only way to defeat the BNP and their ilk is to take them on in public debate and win. To try and shout them down and deny them a platform is to hand them the victory and is a betrayal of our democracy.
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I would just like to see Freedom of Speech protected, not abused nor denied.
I would like to see equality in the treatment of all wrong doers - especially those who today invaded the BBC . As arrested persons their DNA should have been taken and stored.
I really don't know whether or not to vote for or hate the BNP - but I want to make my own mind up, not be denied the opportunity to have an opinion as these rioters would wish.
Democracy used to mean that I was free to make my own mind up - today it seems to mean that I can select from a carefully chosen neutral options, none of whom wish to be accountable for their actions.
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Oh come on BBC, we all know that by giving the likes of Nick Griffin a 'platform' on your programme, as he has said hiself, this is the 'elevation' they have been waiting for. Who do you think your fooling? NOT ME and not thousands of 'decent' british people. Have you learned nothing from the last world war HITLER? Well you can't say you didn't have 'hindsite', something the german leaders could argue that 'if only' they had had that.
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I see my last comment was not 'released'. Well the 'viewings for the BBC should be good but for all the wrong reasons. Look what happened to germany when they aloed a 'fascist dictator' a 'platform'!
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Should I be offended that my wonky eye comment got pulled? As someone with a wonky eye myself can I really be wonky eyeist?
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I'm sorry Takmik, look what happened when Hitler came to power? Look what happened when Labour got in more like? An illegal invasion of Iraq justified by a piece of fiction worthy of JK Rowling and British citizens or residents getting extraordinarily renditioned here, there and everywhere?
We have more innocent citizens retained on the DNA database than the French and German have guilty on their's. What's that about? We won the war and under Labour we're the ones living in a police state?
Perhaps Barrack Obama can save the poor Brits from New Labour's legislation addicted bottom inspectors (they're a character from Viz, a comic). Come on Obama the Cold War ended communism in Russia, we've followed you into Afghanistan and Iraq this is a heartfelt plea to save us from New Labour's nosey, interfering, police state busybodies!
We're fighting wars for New Labour's DNA database of innocents? That's a cause worth fighting for?
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What WOULD David's dad have done? Would it be, for him, an obscene echo of his '44 reporting or would it be a joke, like the spaghetti harvest?
Actually the Dimbleby lineage suggests to me, it's time some other lineages had their chance, which is why I'm a (qualified) Eddie Mair supporter.
There's an interesting question about holocausts tucked away in all this. I personally don''t think that the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki can possibly be used by them to justify the continued dominance of the Samurai caste in Japan.
Middle class is middle class is......middle class, whether you are a Dimbleby, an Oppenheimer (M. Hodge) or a Sitwell or a Toyoda, and their turn to harvest the spaghetti has come.
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Well done the BBC! How refreshingly democratic being brave enough to air what sadly is now an "alternative perspective", the British voice! Those who "raise a clamour" for the blood of the Nazi's might consider attending some basic education classes, a British Nazi & British Nationalist are 2 diametrically opposite entities. Its cool to oppress the BNP, it makes people "libertarians", free-thinkers, chic & "avante guarde", pseudo-freedom fighters externalising personal inadequacies through ignorance & a desire to create a victim. After watching the demonstration on BBC News tonight, rather than displaying such a blatant disregard for British law I would much prefer they were too busy working, adding industriously to the basic welfare of our nation & its subjects. I hope the courts take a serious line with the offenders, democracy is total, not a selective process adopted when common criminals wish to publically break the law. All in all...a breath of fresh air...
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I congratulate the BBC for inviting the BNP spokesman to appear on the programme. Refusing to hear what people who hold opinions one may not share have to say is childish,intolerant and downright dangerous for a democracy. I found the behaviour of the protestors who attacked the police disturbing. You can't stifle free speech by shouting abuse and acting in an aggressive manner. Unless you too are a fascist.
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The Twentieth century produced two ideologies that between them almost destroyed the world. They certainly changed it irrevocably.
Now you can argue that the one with the small moustache murdered more people than the one with the big moustache, or that the one with the pipe was more cruel than the vegetarian, or indeed if it’s your wont, visa versa, But in the end, when “great patriotic” comes to “lebensraum”, it’s angels on a pin head.
Now can someone explain to me, why, when a follower of the loony with the big moustache can spout his crap with impunity, the same cannot be said to be true for followers of the loony with the small moustache.
This is the most blatant example of moustashism in the history of the BBC!
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I'm watching last night's Newsnight now.
Why don't we outsoure the MPs, or hire 3 Eastern European immigrants as MPs for the price of each British MP? They'd probably be better as well as cheaper.
Surely it's about the jobs? How many unreal jobs were created by this government create? Where are the jobs going to come from now we're paying for the consequences of gambling the nation's economy on an unsustainable property price bubble?
That woman on Newsnight is turning me off. Has she been to the same condescending skills courses the Blair Babes went on? Being talked to like I am still at school doesn't do much for me.
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I know one thing - Bumblebee shouldn't be allowed on TV with that tie...
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Have found your program extremly interesting, particularly when the focus has been on ethenic minorities and BNP. BNP I disagree with, but please see events in the Dundee Courier when the Government is trying to deport an American woman after her divorce from a Scotish husband, but deport her and not allow her children to go with her
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We're just a small tea shop in Brighton but we had a very recent encounter with the BNP. Read about our experience of Nick Griffin and our take on the Question Time debate here: http://bit.ly/3CJcaQ
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I despair for the ordinary people of this Country.
The rise of the BNP is a direct result of the inevitable transfer of allegiance of the people who in the past made up the grass roots of the British Labour party.
Betrayed by their supposed betters, and natural leaders, at the altar of political correctness, and multi culturalism, (at no cost, or discomfort to their own standards, in the comfortable, hallowed surroundings of Islington, etc.),
“Pass me a second home allowance form Jeeves”.
What they don’t seem to understand is that the British people will accept anybody, especially if they think that they’ve had a rough time, but they will not tolerate being told that they cannot get pissed at Christmas in case it offends somebody who has just arrived from “ubi doobi stan” or wherever!
My Dad was a Labour voter, came back from taking the “Kings Shilling” in 1946, with TB. I wonder what he would have made of Blair, Mandleson, and Brown.
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Metrodeco: I'm surprised you're surprised that there are BNP members in Brighton. I lived there for many years and it was well known as a 'nest' for its predecessor, the National Front. One of the problems of tolerance - and Brighton is a model of tolerance - is that it tolerates the intolerant, which is how the situation arose in Brighton way back then. Indeed, if you trawled the records of the Argus, you'll find some lurid tales of NF activity some thirty years ago ....
Loved your article, though!
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Margaret Hodge talks sense on this one. Racists don't talk sense, but racism is an issue at the moment - whereas immigration previously only affected the largest cities it now affects the towns. I am glad - when I moved from the capital to the backwoods I missed the variety. Could not get Greek bread and Jamaica patties and latkes. If racists feel the BNP speaks for them, I prefer that evil to the evil of government censorship, and accept that some progress has been made in their conceding the argument of "racial purity". The argument over cultural identity is not strong, since immigration increases variety: I hope Nr Griffin does not drink tea or coffee. I think MH correctly identified the underlying issues. I personally have to have the argument with local racism anyhow, as she does, so I prefer that reality is reflected on television. Build Keynsian council houses, end regressive taxation, return Council Tax and Housing Benefit to civil servants, tax inflated earnings and wind down overseas operations.
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Tax inflated earnings?? Only after the second year.
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Just as I thought.
The audience in Question Time was packed out with a hostile anti-BNP cohort. The venue was apparently in the least BNP-friendly area of the UK. There were TWO "ethnic" members on the panel, which is at least one more than the average. All four other members of the panel PLUS the chairman had come tooled up with a complete history (often fantasy) of Griffin and his party, and much else which they tried to attribute to the BNP.
Griffin was continually interrupted mid-sentence by the other panellists (including the chairman), and was frequently unable to finish a point before being cut off by a barrage of interjections. Griffin himself was decent enough to allow all the others to finish speaking.
This event turned out to be, not the enlightened blow for freedom of speech which I had hoped, but another BBC stitch-up, reminiscent of the Question Time just after the "9/11" attacks which was packed out with hostile muslims, visibly distressing the US ambassador at the time.
Mr Griffin did not shine gloriously, but acquitted himself reasonably well in what was effectively a show trial which the BBC sprung upon him in front of a selected, partial audience. Testament to the partiality of the audience became abundantly clear when
Griffin, in reply to the usual Nazi jibes from Straw et al declared that his own father had been in the RAF at a time when Staw's father was in jail for refusing to take up arms against the Germans. A normally constituted audience would have roared its derision of Straw's hypocrisy, whereas there was hardly any reaction from this obviously rigged audience. In fact, Straw's own history on the extreme left would probably be at least as embarrassing as Griffin's on the extreme right, but of course we all know that the Labour party has an almost endless capacity to forgive its own indiscretions.
That it was a stitch-up was apparent when the programme was reported in BBC news the following day. For instance, BBC news reported that Griffin had called homosexuals "creepy". In fact he expressed tolerance of what homosexuals do in private. What he found creepy was "men kissing each other in public".
This was NOT the breakthrough moment for the BNP. That is yet to come. And it WILL come, because outside the liberal elite, the resentment against immigrants is solid.
This and other BBC stunts will change nothing.
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TG @ 87
You're right. It was a stitch-up. Needle and thread provided by Mr Griffin.
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This is the first time in ages I've been annoyed enough to comment on something. If a party is able to stand for election & is therefore legal, then their representatives have a right to be heard. If Peter Hain & others like him feel that the BNP is so abhorrant then they should be campaigning to make that party illegal rather than complaining about the BBC following it's political impartiality rules. I feel similarly about smoking (which I don't do myself) - we know the damage it does but until it is actually made illegal, then smokers should be allowed to carry on with their perfectly legal activities. Legality should be upheld in a democracy or it ceases to be one
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A good example of 'Give somebody enough rope...'. Nick Griffin came across as a right numpty with policies as clear as porridge. Not surprising really, as he wasn't too sure about what policies and views he used to hold or why he held them.
That was the first time in a number of years that I've watched Question Time all the way through. It's not usually so entertaining, I'm sure.
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Thruns 87.....I have been so angry since the Today programme that it is such a relief to see my thoughts in print, already written by you.
I want to say...if the BBC cannot present an arguement with the truth they should not get involved. Griffin certainly did not say homosexuals were 'creepy'. People will read and hear this untrue, dim, selective report , believe it and base their judgement on that. Why not just tell the truth, what is to fear? Fabricating words and expressions means that people who saw the programme will feel sorry for NG and despise the BBCs poor skills and bias. All members of the panel let themselves down and exposed their own weaknesses, people now feel sorry for NG because he was not allowed to answer and finish sentences, it was a hate fest.
Anger and Non Thinking won the day and Dimbelby was ridiculous. The public are brighter than the panel think, keeping calm and intelligent would have exposed NG but shouting at him, blocking him and then saying afterwards 'That showed him' has fooled nobody. Pathetic.
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I cannot believe why anyone can be a Holocaust denier and I cannot understand why Griffin could not say clearly what his view on the Holocaust was.
The Holocaust happened and both Hitler and Stalin were monsters.
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Please stop broadcasting soundbites from QT of Griffin’s repulsive views. The BNP doesn’t care a jot about the logic of its arguments, or whether they are laughed at by right thinking middle class people. If logic could defeat fascism, Hitler would never have come to power. The BNP works on simple emotional appeals to white working class people’s sense of grievance – ‘You are being and ignored and left behind, and only the BNP is speaking up for you’.
It’s not the derision of middle class broadcasters and politicians that will defeat the BNP – if you are going to let Griffin air his repugnant views we need to hear more voices of white men from working class backgrounds speaking up for the working class from a different basis of experience and beliefs about class, and pride in being working class.
The argument that working class people have no voice could be silenced at a stroke if the BBC gives more air time to the voices of trade unionists, working class people trying to make a difference in their own communities, and politicians from working class backgrounds. We need much less on the BNP from (sometimes smug) middle class commentators - who only confirm (in the eyes of BNP sympathisers) the far right’s picture of a cosy conspiracy by a liberal elite to silence those who speak up for the working class.
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I wish the ad hoc question about unemployment and the rate of immigration had been allowed to be answered by the panel - though the riposte that came from the woman in the audience was excellent.
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Peoples views are often fantasy re NG and the BNP. It seems to me that people just want to vent anger without actually studying the BNP and their views. This is rather embarassing because the angry bleating is full of errors. The BNP content is in my view very unbalanced, sick and distorted ...but come on...if you want to expose and critisise it ...be sure of what you are talking about. The BBC reporting is not accurate, we need truth for a start to be right.Expose by the Truth, you do not have to make things up to beat the BNP, that way you make them stronger.
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It is amazing how many people imagine that they can defeat the BNP by argument. This is the Straw view, and judging by the comments above, it is widely shared by listeners to PM. This is not so, and I shall shortly offer to demonstrate the fact. Stay tuned. The alternative view is the Hain view, which is to say that the Labour party’s struggle with this question of immigration is how best to keep the BNP cat firmly in the bag. Hain must at all costs prevent the electorate from hearing Nick Griffin on this subject.
Even those who thought they were debating immigration with Griffin were doing nothing of the sort. Most of their “arguments” in Thursday’s programme related to peripheral matters, such as what Griffin has at one time or another said, and who he has associated with, and how close to the wind he has sailed with respect to all the laws which hedge about the subject of race. This hardly even merited the description “debate”. It was more like junior school playground name-calling, with points scored every time you could call Griffin a “racist” or a “Nazi”. So Straw, Dimbleby (whom I never find very impartial at the best of times), et al were themselves managing to avoid a discussion on immigration by using these diversionary tactics.
I wonder why.
The question is answered by knowing that for over half a century, opinion polls have shown well over seventy percent of the electorate always opposed third world immigration. We have to rely on opinion polls, because no political party ever dared to place immigration high enough up the agenda for it to influence the voter. Indeed, if it looked like being on the agenda of the Conservative party, the Labour and Liberal parties would cry “foul”, and the Conservatives would slink guiltily away from the topic. Today, the Conservatives have been intimidated by political correctness into not making it a significant election issue. There is a kind of shameful pact between the mainstream parties NOT to raise the question of immigration in any meaningful way, and the concomitant need to stifle anyone who does. Hain, Straw, Dimblebys of various kinds, Livingstone, Hodge, and all the rest of them hope to keep silent on the actual question of immigration. In a way, they hope that the question will eventually go away - if they can just shut Nick Griffin up for long enough.
But we all know from the opinion polls how unpopular immigration has always been, and how unpopular it still is. So the question does not go away. In fact, throughout Europe, immigration is steadily rising to the top of people’s concerns
Hence we see ever more frantic efforts by the liberal elite to vilify those who might become the focus around which anti-immigrant resentment could coalesce.
Hain knows, and so, for that matter, does Straw, that one-time Labour voters are now asking why the Labour party has been in the vanguard of delivering us a multiracial, multicultural society which NONE of them ever wanted. Hain and Straw never even asked them if they wanted a multicultural society. While ostensibly negotiating on their behalf for some mess of potage, Hain and Straw were in reality selling their birthright - their right to call their country their own.
What Hain and Straw now fear most is that Griffin can offer the way to recover that birthright. If he does, and we all get a chance to listen, then Labour and the “enlightened” liberal elite is dead.
And bad luck, Hain and Straw. In the once strong heartlands of Labour, this is beginning to happen. Griffin is being heard, whether you like it or not.
I said earlier that I could prove that you cannot defeat the BNP in argument, and I will do so in my next blog - if I am not moderated out of existence first. I am afraid I do not trust the BBC with free speech.
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I thought the body- language of all the participants ' spoke volumes'.
I hope that a recording of the programme is used as a teaching aid for future students of ,for example,politics, ethics and, of course , psychology.
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I'm more worried about the fascism of the current government. The BNP are never going to get elected so it was a lot of shouting and screaming about nothing.
How much legislation has this government introduced and how much DNA of innocents is stored? They've been told by the EU to sort it out, and the Scottish don't have such a system.
The BNP are racist fascists and Labour are just common, or garden fascists?
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