Jack and Jill went up the....er...um...
Here's a piece by Hugh Macknight at the Press Association - we plan to do something on this tonight.
"Traditional children's nursery rhymes could be heading for extinction, experts
warned today.
Rhymes which have been passed down from parent to child for generations are being shunned for more fashionable modern alternatives, they said.
A survey by the charity Booktrust revealed they are seen as too old-fashioned by modern parents - meaning old favourites including Hey Diddle Diddle and Mary Mary Quite Contrary could be forgotten. Only 36% of the parents surveyed regularly read nursery rhymes with their children, while almost a quarter admitted to having never sung a nursery rhyme with their child.
And more than 20% of young parents claimed not to use them because they were not educational.
But experts said use of the rhymes could play a vital role in children's language development, and help to form a loving bond between parent and child. Head of primary education at the Institute of Education, professor Roger Beard, said they were as important now as they had ever been. He said: "It is not dying out, but it is a recurring concern that parents of young children are not being encouraged to use nursery rhymes as often as they might do.""
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Any examples of the "more fashionable modern alternatives"?
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Jack and Jill went up the hill,
To get a mobile top-up,
Jill fell down and broke her crown,
And Jack was left to mop up.
Mary Mary, quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
It doesn't at all because you see, I thought,
It'd more useful paved over as a car port.
Hey diddle diddle,
MPs on the fiddle,
Their pay is as high as the moon,
The ministers laughed to see such fun,
Knowing they wouldn't pay back anytime soon.
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Mary had a little lamb
It had a touch of colic
She gave it brandy twice a day
And now it's an alcoholic
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The owl and the pussycat stayed at home,
And networked on their PC,
They got married on FaceBook,
Owl cheated with his netbook,
Now pussycat is a divorcee.
Little Boy Blue,
Come drive up and down in your pimped hatchback playing Dizzee Rascal on your 2000Watt stereo system.
Baa baa black sheep,
Have you any wool?
No sir, no sir, my wool is under exclusive contract to a major garment manufacturer.
Wee Willie Winkie,
Runs through the town,
Upstairs, downstairs,
In his night shirt.
His case comes up next week.
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There is a direct correlation between a child's ability to recognise rhythm and rhyme and their ability to learn to read with ease. Generally, those children who can already recite nursery rhymes when they start school are the first to master reading.
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This is one my grandfather used to say. I assume it must come from some kind of old music hall song, but I've never heard anyone else sing or recite it.
To market, to market went my Uncle Jim,
When some silly fool threw tomatoes at him.
"Tomatoes don't hurt, sir", he said with a grin,
"But, by gum, they do when they come in a tin".
As a child, I was always left with the image of Uncle Jim hurling a large tin of tomoatoes back at the fool. Perhaps there's a 'don't tolerate bullying' message somewhere there? It always made me laugh, particularly as the last line was accompanied by a tickle.
What I now remember most is just how much it made me feel loved, warm and safe in my grandfather's arms. I sing it to my children now, though it makes me cry as well as laugh because I remember how much I miss him.
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When our kids were babies we used to recite nursery Rhymes and I was quite amazed at how many I knew.
Obviously remembered from being recited to me when I was a small child/baby.
I am amazed at how far back some of them go.
Earlier in the year there was an exhibition in the (British.)Library near St Pancras on Childrens literature and one lullaby was a lot older than I had imagined. (Golden Slumbers I believe it was)
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PF & SSC - encore!
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linnhelass @ 5
Correlation, no doubt. But that does not imply causation, does it?
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Many parents don't talk or sing enough to their children, in my opinion. Especially babies. Shouting "Will ya stop messing!" doesn't count as conversation. Saddest sight I saw recently - a mother pushing a toddler in a stroller. The mother had her i-pod on & was listening to music.
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Oh, Eddie. I thought woman walking pass citing "Ring a ring a Roses" to small child looked familiar.
Hey, allegedly (remembering people in frocks recently who surprised young muggers - who thoght the cage fighters in frock were not - cage fighters) you didn't not look too bad in a dress, mate. But the derivation of that nursey rhyme goes back to the Plague doesn't it? Was I that critical of PM? lol
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30 years ago we had several nursery rhyme books that I used to read and sing. The kids would get annoyed when I changed the words of a much loved rhyme. Part of the fun of pre-school kids is singing little songs and reading kids books pointing out the pictures etc. To think that some parents today are not doing this is such a shame.
However, many of the traditional nursery rhymes are not exactly PC.
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Up hill, Down hill I guess.
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Perhaps PM can do a UpRhymes/DownRyhmes slot to keep these traditional rhymes alive.
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steelpulse - no, Ring a Ring a Roses does not go back to the Plague - see here for an explanation ...
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What an amazing coincidence! I am currently creating an illustrated book of traditional nursery rhymes for a client. Many date from medieval times and are comments on notables of the day, usually rude. Their meaninglessness for modern children is no problem, it's the alliteration, rhythm and odd happenings that kids love.
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5, 9
Sounds false to me.
On his first day, my cousin learnt
In 1944
The soldiers went to war
They lost their guns
I learnt
Lady of Spain I adore you
Lift up your skirt
We learnt
My brother lies over the ocean
My sister lies over the sea
My father
'Course that WAS all in the playground.
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SSC and PF - BRAVO BRAVO!!!
My local library has a children’s reading session every Friday which begins and ends with a nursery rhyme sung out loud. It’s so charming and always takes me back to a special place.
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#16. DoctorDolots
Perhaps you can explain, Dr Foster who went to Gloucester etc.
How did Puddle and middle ever ryhme... unless it was not a puddle he stepped in.
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My local library has ''Baby Bounce and Rhyme times'' which are half hour sessions dedicated to group singing/chanting of action songs and ryhmes, traditional and modern, for babies aged from birth to two and a half years.
They regularly attract about 30 carers and their little uns, and there are 2 sessions at the library, and 4 other sessions run by library staff at other centres.
They also have ''Tot Times'' for children aged two and a half to five years, and these incorporate stories, craft activities, and rhymes.
The aim of these sessions is to promote early language development, and to recognise parents as being the first educators of their children.
The sessions are also used to promote Bookstart, which is a nationally run scheme which ensures that every home has books for children, to encourage reading and early language development.
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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes the lamb to school
Between two chunks of bread.
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Lady Sue (1) Modern examples would be Incey Wincey Spider, There's a Spider on the Floor, The Wheels on the Bus, Five Little Monkeys Jumping on the Bed, Row, row row Your Boat........
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Rock-a-by baby
On the tree top,
When the wind blows
The cradle will rock.
When the bough breaks,
The cradle will fall -
And it's all Social Services
Fault after all.
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Five Fat Sausages, Sizzling in a Pan etc...Gillianian?
PF - no, that's a step too far.
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Poor old Horse went on the sauce
He couldn't get much dafter
Horse fell down and broke his crown
We fell about with laughter
Up Horse got, with eyes bloodshot
Home side to side did stagger
He went to bed to mend his head
But all night wife did nagger.
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Simple Simon met a pieman
Going to the fair;
Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
Let me taste your ware.
Says the pieman to Simple Simon,
Show me first your penny;
Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
No, you don't get any.
But hand over those pies or I'll smash your face in.
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Thank you Sid. I read it and was very confused. This is just one site though and one explanation.
http://www.rhymes.org.uk/ring_around_the_rosy.htm
It takes a mere few seconds on a Web Search engine of your choice to find a confirmation of my original view. No offence but I need more time to consider what I believe about THAT particular rhyme because I recall where I originally heard explanation.
I will think on. But ta again!
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Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear,
Fuzzy-wuzzy had no hair
So fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, wuzzy?
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Is that a Jan Pienkowsi [sp?] illustration?
The 'To Market' one, as I remember, goes:
To market, to market, to buy a fine pig,
Home again, home again, jiggety jig.
To market, to market, to buy a fine hog,
Home again, home again, joggety jog.
Which is probably quite rude, now...
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Then there's the old playground favourite:
Mary had a little lamb
She also had a duck.
She put them on the mantlepiece
To see if they would fall off.
Why a mantlepiece, I don't know. But that's what they said at school. A while ago, now.
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One potato, two potato, three potato, four
Five potato, six potato - watching telly! More!
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Ring a ring of roses,
A pocket full of tamiflu doses,
Atishoo! Atishoo!
We all fall down
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Look like Strictly have found their 'voting time' entertainment for this Saturday evening..
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/popvox/archive/2009/10/07/harry-connick-jr-blows-up-at-black-face-michael-jackson-impersonator.aspx
They truly are living in a different century..
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*I'm rather wishing I hadn't asked*
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Of course, (puts academic hat on) all the arguments about the origins of, eg, 'Ring a Ring O[f] Roses' and whtehr it's about the plague or not are grist to the mill of anyone interested in oral history and tradition. *
So - Doctor Dolots (great name, btw), I'd love to know more.
I learned so many rhymes and songs from my mother, mostly, a few from my 'good' and 'wicked' grans, and many more at school.
They are part of the fabric of my early life.
* No, I haven't read the Opies
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'whtehr' means 'whatever', of course. Gah.
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I wrote a whoe lot of Limericks based on Bible stories, but they got left in the US when I moved here. One started:
Methuselah lived 969
Which I'd say is a mighty long time
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Gillianian@22: thankyou. I understand the 'Wheels on the Bus' would be fairly modern but 'Spider on the Floor' and 'Five Little Monkeys' are two I've not heard.
Some of those above are suitably silly but presume several of you (including Big Sis - I'm astonished!) will be listening to the radio from your respective naughty steps?
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Twinkle, twinkle, little star,
How I wonder what you are.
I'm a red giant, you dope,
Why don't you use a telescope?
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#33. lordBeddGelert
Thanks LBG that was truely jaw dropping, gob smacking and eye popping.
Germaine Greer is Australian so maybe she should spend some time telling them about equallity issues.
No wonder the Aboriginals are so badly treated.
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FO 31, Dan Quayle:
One potatoe, two potatoe, three potatoe, four...
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Golden brown slumbers fill your eyes,
Smiles caress you where you lie,
Sleep in the street now, sleep all night
Cos opiates will see you right.
(written after hearing on the 'Today' programme that there are empty beds waiting for addicts who have gone through detoxification but can't get funding for rehabilitation and further support. A disgrace)
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Lady Sue: You were asking for nursery rhymes for our times, I believe, and I was simply obliging.
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BS 43, Look out, she has the green ink out again. But, I must admit, your Simple Simon poem did get a bit violent towards the end. And calling someone simple isn't very nice...
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Indeed you were Big Sis. Many thanks ;-)
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I also did Noah, Adam and Eve, Jonah, Brian, etc. All those Bible folk.
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My brother has a CD of tunes to keep his son quiet in the car, but most of them are Americanised nursery rhythms and it's quite interesting how the New World does it. (Something about little Einsteins)
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So if the Three Blind Mice were the three English martyrs, who was the Farmer's Wife?
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Teach past tense of irregular verbs
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OK, a cleaned up nursery rhyme for Eddie:
Ride a *beep* horse to Banbury Cross
To see a fine lady upon a white horse.
With rings on her *beeps*, and bells on her *beeps*,
She shall have *beep* wherever she *beeps*.
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Just Googled (other search engines available)some well known nursery rhymes.
Mary, Mary
and Three blind Mice
Cockleshells sound a bit eye watering!
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I am a Foundation and Key stage One supply teacher and as well as having all the nursery rhymes up my sleeve I have loads of action rhymes as well. Quite honestly I don't think it's a class thing -I get blank faces from posh children and eager joining in from the less privileged. We act out nursery rhymes as well- "Sing a song of sixpence" and "Jack and Jill" being the favourites."Did you ever see a penguin come to tea" and "Head shoulders baby, one two three" the favourite action rhymes. There is a wonderful new book by the magnificent Michael Rosen called "Dear Mother Goose" where agony aunt Mother Goose complete with laptop and endless cups of tea gives advice to nursery rhyme characters. Six and seven year olds (and adults) love it. Do try and find a copy.
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#48. Frances O
Apparently Queen Mary Tudor.
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FO 48, George III's wife.
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My father has just told me that he has a tape recording somewhere of me aged about 3 years old. He had just taught me "Little Mary had a lamb, she kept it in a bucket." Thankfully he had cleaned up the 4th line when he decided to share this with his very young daughter but apparently there is a wonderful moment where I say, "But Daddy, that doesn't rhyme."
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I sing nursery rhymes to my children. I think they are great because they help develop memory and speech. When my son was 18 months old he recited "We Willie Winkie" much to our surprise. He was barely speaking but he could repeat the nursery rhyme near perfect. They also connect us to our ancestors. I was surprised how many I remembered from my childhood word for word. However, when I forgot parts of them, there is always Wikipedia. I do agree there are a lot of modern classics, but there's room for both.
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Was Your Man saying "word AND mouth" or the more conventional "word OF mouth"?
What did he say Humpty Dumpty really was? A weapon of mass destruction?
A touch of the obvious to say there was oral tradition for centuries before the nursery rhymes were written down. All interesting stuff though - loved Eddie's comment.
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Your guest didn't seem to be aware that 'We're Going On A Bear Hunt' is an old campfire rhyme - that's why it's so shout-out-loud memorable. We were taught it on a school trip in 1981, the only difference being the large mammal was a lion, not a bear.
Btw, I've never heard the second verse of Jack and Jill used as the vox pop test in your programme, and I've read the Opies and co.
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Sing a song of sixpence
A pocket full of chaff
Four and twenty bankers
A little bit worse off
When the files were opened
The bankers made a joke -
Isn't this a pretty thing
To set before the folk?
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Do the people who think that the old rhymes are no longer relevant also think that Cinderella, Robin Hood and King Arthur have no relevance? What about Alice, Beatrix Potter, Pooh and The Secret Garden - to name but a few - they are hardly modern either. Should we perhaps cast out all books for adults AND children that were not written by our own generation?
Of course this is ridiculous. Every generation adds its own riches to the tradition of stories and rhymes - and the best survive. For a reason. I know for a fact - because it is my job - that modern, sophisticated children still love Little Women, Just William, Adrian Mole etc if it is not assumed that they won't!
The thing that made me decide to write was the mother who, while saying that old rhymes had no relevance to her child, mentioned The Tiger Who Came to Tea as one of her child's favourite books. Since this piece of perfection is - what - fifty years old (and features a daddy in a trilby) this was a bit of a contradiction!
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The music's good though, isn't it? Have you noticed how many of them are jigs? Ring-a-roses, Girls and Boys, Jack and Jill, Humpty, Pop Goes. Oooh it's reet traditional and that. Status Quo should do them. What are needed are new words.
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Not Twinkle Black Sheep though. That's by Mozart. Lavender's Blue? Minuet. "God Rest Ye Merry" is a straightened-out, slowed down jig. Three Blind Mice - Canon Jig. The North Wind Doth Blow, Past Three o Clock, God Save the Queen, Sweet Nightingale - galliards.
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Karen, you made me laugh. Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, eh? My parents used to use a rude word which I heard - and used once, and they convinced me I'd made it up. The cheek of them!
Looter, well, I did giggle 'three English martyrs' and got results suggesting they were Protestants under Mary AND Catholics under Elizabeth. So much for trusting search engines (never a good idea).
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Nursery rhymes are essential! They are not earth-based as is often thought. They are precise tools for learning the night sky and they refer to forgotten pictures that you can make in the stars. This knowledge has been wiped from our memory for reasons that become very obvious when enough night sky pictures are known. En mass they do carry a hidden message.
Fortunately this doesn't have to remain a theory, all you need to do is get out there and learn to read the stars in the same way as our ancestors. It is a bit like learning a new language - I've been at it for 12 years and the results (inc. Jack and Jill, Pop! goes the weasel and the Lion and the Unicorn) can be seen at wwwrealstarpictures.com. Once you've found one or two you will be surprised how easy it is to make beautiful pictures in the stars and really understand what our nursery rhymes are about.
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what was wrong with my nursery rhyme?
my mother always recited it to me to send me off to sleep.
Granted i was 35 years of age and she is now in Holloway Prison.
Fond memories though.
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As a child (30 years ago), I sang 'Going on a Lion Hunt' at summer camp, which is virtually identical to Rosen's book 'Going on a Bear Hunt'. So it is not contemporary and is actually an excellent example of an old song that is still enormously satisfying to today's children.
My three-year old son is becoming familiar with computers and modern children's television but also comes home from nursery singing old song after old song and loving every one.
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Geogie Porgie Bullingdon pie
Spoke at Conference and made them cry
When the poor came out to play
Georgie Porgie sent them away
OR
When the voters came out to play
Georgie Porgie ran away
In the interests of balance, either of the last two lines may be used after the election.
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In all honesty, struggle as I might, I can only remember
Jack & Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pale of water
I don't know what they did up there
But now they've got a daughter.
As I'm in my late thirties now, I can take a guess at the missing part of the puzzle.
By the way, I apologise if the gender and status stereotyping offends anyone - it's been a while since I had the lingua-stasi tell me how to think, so I'm not fully a-fait with the "korrekt" version.
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There are a few repositories of nursery rhymes on the net, variations abound and some of them are regional. Then they get to the US and change again - 'Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home' f'rinstance. A few exist in most European countries, again with variations. Most probably started out as rebellious rhymes mocking the great and the good, so modern versions should really be about Thatcher, Blair and Bush perhaps, there must be a place for Mandelbrot too.
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#63. Frances O
Yes well those Jesuits twist everthing.
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YES! had forgotten that Bear Hunt ( itself now aging as I read it to my two huge teenagers when they were small) was a campfire song. Many 'modern classics' are rewritten oldies - and how are we to understand Roald Dahl's Revolting Rhymes, to use just one relatively modern example, if we don't know our fairy tales? Any more than we can understand Renaissance art if we don't know the Bible or Greek mythology. These things are part of our culture. They survive for a good reason ( such things are very self-regulating) They WILL survive despite the many news stories predicting their demise (over the thirty years I have worked in children's books there have been many!)
Also - so right about posh children being just as often/ more deprived of these traditional rhymes and stories - thank goodness teachers still recognise the value of them!
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Georgie, Porgie Pudding and Pie
Kissed the girls and made them cry
When the boys came out to play
He kissed them too
Well what’s wrong with that
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I enjoyed listening to the piece about nursery Rhymes on today's PM programme. I too think the Gruffalo and Bear Hunt are great and very contemporary but why can't childrenn enjoy the traditional rhymes as well. It's surely about giving childrenas wide a variety of rhymes, songs, stories etc and also about teaching them alittle abouit the past too. Mt grandchildren love the rhythm, rhyme abd funny and sad bits of the trad nursery rhymes whilst also enjoying modern rhymes and jingles. I feel it's important to keep old traditions alive. Long live nursery rhymes!!
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Hey diddle diddle
The cat did a piddle
All over the bathroom mat
The little dog laughed
To see such fun
and piddled all over the cat
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devon, you made me giggle. All over the keyboard.
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Which reminds me. It's National Poetry Day!
I'm geing to retire to the Beach with a slim volume.
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Rhythm! Song! Rhyme! The more nonsensical the funnier. Keep children laughing. Nursery rhymes, traditional songs - the more the merrier. Memory too plays a part (some adults apparently need this too!) I'm all for making learning fun and keeping traditional nursery rhymes going. Inter-generational too perhaps? We used to sing them on car journeys - much better to interact with children.
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Since my first language is Welsh, my mum was actually quite surprised to hear me speaking in English in the house at age four, as I'd brought a book of nursery rhymes home from school and had started to learn to read them. Now I'm sad to say my knowledge of English is better than Welsh.
And when I put Welsh rhymes on the blog, they are moderated away :.-(
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Frances O #63 - You cannot come hear with half a story ! What was the word?
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annasee #10 - That is terrible ! If you can have a go at people for texting while driving you should be able to remonstrate with people about that...
I feel my cantankerous nature has reached a tipping point..
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#78. lordBeddGelert
During the 1970's I used to work with an older bloke we called Dai (don't know if that was his real name). Anyway he remembers growing up only speaking Welsh and had to learn English for school. He used to find it hilarious hearing Welsh nationalists speaking Welsh with strong English accents.
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The words of nursery rhymes do not matter. The mutual chant with others is a comfort. Times tables we used to chant until someone didn't understand the point of them and got rid of them were the same as nursery rhymes but more useful. We didn't need to be taught to teach rhymes before the tv etc, it came naturally. Now many leave it to the likes of the Tweenies.
The brain is a self checking organ that's why we sing along and copy. It likes to know its content is correct. It's why we sit with an inane grin listening to the likes of Richard Digance reminiscing.
Try it for yourself. Deliberately get something wrong. See how quickly an indignant fight starts when there's a discrepancy in nostalgia.
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Arglwydd,
It was an English word often used in Wales. Rhymes with lugger.
btw, if I didn't think it would get you modded, do you know the words to the rhyme which begins [Welsh for] Grandmother, [Welsh for] Grandmother? I think she was in her house and there was possibly a dog in the last line.
A link would do, if 'they' allow it
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The other shoe dropped later last night. What is one to do I thought? I chuckled. "Tinker Tailor Soldier Sailor Rich Man Poor Man Beggar Man Thief". And the wife reading a book by someone who is remembered for possibly the wrong thing. Mr Wonderful Goes on a Cruise? I wish! lol
I swear on the blessed memory of the late Mr Guinness - a giraffe called Gerald came to call. Bill Haydens sister Jenny (Starman) sort of.
But I hmmed last night again. The Mock The Week episode I saw was an old one. Swine Flu amongst chickens to the fore of all the irreverent comments.
How long ago was that? And a soldier was reported with some perhaps unwise comments on something. I will still think on - for the sake of a Byrne who encouraged me to behave responsibly in a Thought For The Moment and the young owner of the giraffe called Gerald. I am very Pride-aux you know, Jim?
Subject: Is probably worse - before it crashes
Anagram: Be prissy or Bo Law - Forebears ethics
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My children are 5,8 and 11 and all loved nursery rhymes ( and still do) . My youngest could sing huge chunks of rhyme before she was able to string sentences together in conversational speech - it was definitely of huge benefit just as any communal singing and chanting is - and it's great because unlike when we all sing songs from Mamma Mia , Great Granny can join in too because she still remembers all the words - a great unifying and fun thing to do ( the educational stuff follows on incidentally and is a bonus byproduct). Parents who dismiss them as old-fashioned or of no educational value don't know what they're missing.
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It was funny to hear the lady talking about nursery rhymes having strange content, but she reads to her children about tigers coming to tea and going on bear hunts!! Giving tigers tea and cakes isn't strange then?
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Same lady seemed unaware that 'going on a bear hunt' was a rhyme long before it became a book.
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Jack and Jill went up the hill,
Somewhere in the vicinity.
Jack came down without half-a-crown,
And Jill without her ...
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Of course nursery rhymes are said and sung on a daily basis to children across the country. Is there any proper research which says they are decreasing in popularity? The people you interviewed seemed to be young adults, a long time away from their own childhoods but not(yet) having children themselves. Some of the traditional ones are still popular, some not. The Jack and Jill one, ending with violence (child abuse even) as it does, was never popular with me.
The historian chap is misguided if he thinks that we are going to chose the rhymes to sing to our babies on the basis of tenuous historical links about cannons. It is more to do with the rhythm, the tune and the pictures it will paint in the child's head. Also tunes with actions are popular.
Also some of the "traditional" ones are only Victorian - the rhymes which are popular change over the years and have their fashions just as all parts of our culture do.
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When I adopted a five year old, a few years ago, I was astonished to find that no-one had ever told or sung her a Nursery Rhyme. Obviously it is not as automatic/natural as we all assume. Anyway, i have made up for lost time. Test her - she knows them all, as does her 19 year-old sister!
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Maybe the fall in the number of people knowing their nursery rhymes is partially due to the demise of BBC's "Listen with Mother".
It should be reinstated as a public service ;-)
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93 - That's true - Daphne Oxenford was a national treasure. Similar programmes today could soon add to the nursery repertory. I rather think some of the Pooh and Alice verses are now well enough known to qualify.
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94 - When I say "was" I mean in the LWM context 1950-71. Ms Oxenford is still working, I gather.
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96 I think "Yellow Submarine" qualifies now, from the reports I get about school repertoire.
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I am a peripatetic music teacher in primary schools and often used nursery rhymes as something that children could instantly relate to, helping them with understanding rhythm, timing, pitch etc. In my experience the children who knew and could sing nursery rhymes were the ones who progressed most quickly in music: this was not because they came from any particular class or had especially musical parents. It was because music had been part of their lives from a very early age and they had already gained an instinctive understanding of timing, division into rhythmic sections etc.as well as great pleasure.
Those children were, incidentally, the ones whose parents bothered to sit down and help and encourage them at instruments - again nothing to do with class or parental musical skill - just to do with making time for your kids and interacting with them in a creative way.
Over the last few years I have been increasingly dismayed at how few nursery rhymes many children know - and the same goes for Christmas Carols, again a very useful tool in basic music teaching. Some of the new songs are great but it is the communality of the experience of the more traditional songs that is so valuable.
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