The PM Glass Box.
The Glass Box is where the PM team meets in at 18.00 every weeknight to discuss the content of the programme. If you want to let it all out in this virtual glass box, Carolyn and I would welcome that.
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The blog for the afternoon news and current affairs programme presented by Eddie Mair.
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Snorting a line, eh?
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Re: Gary McKinnon case
That he has Aspergers or broke a UK law is not relevant.
The issue is whether we are subject to US laws when living in UK.
Are we expected to keep abreast of US legislation? This treaty says we are, and every citizen in this country may unwittingley break a US law and be sucked off the street and sent across the Atlantic.
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Ok David whats this supposed to depict?
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Gary McKinnon's mother gets my full support. She is a Heroine!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Didn't Eddie use that photo some time ago?
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Richard (2):
Good point. If a UK citizen burned a US flag (not an offence here) and put a video of the act on a US-based video-serving website, (also not an offence here) would that person be liable for extradition and trial in the US?
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That Glass Box photo is so funny!
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David (5)
I reffered your post (don't know if I was the only one) cause your language and attitude stinks!
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nsfJd 9, Maybe you should refer my post about Harry Patch as well. Did you refer my 1?
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I wanted to know if you can dite a person as well as extradite them, but somebody referred the post.
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Richard SM @2
I agree that Gary McKinnon's Aspergers is wholly irrelevant (I've seen mental health professionals argue strongly over what that label actually means).
The treaty is the issue here of course and I would have liked some legally qualified views on it.
Hacking is a special crime since it can be perpetrated in one country but only take effect on the other side of the world.
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My opinion about McKinnon is mine and doesn't affect the status of this blog.
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invincibleoldandwise (12):
In that case, perhaps international hacking cases should be tried in the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
Good luck getting US hackers - or anyone else from the US for that matter - extradited there.
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ioaw 12, We discussed Aspergers and ADHD until the proverbial cows came home on another forum and it was quite difficult being funny with the posters who had it and they admitted that they had trouble with humor.
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I have a feeling that the Quaker church I went to wouldn't marry gays. Very evangelical it was.
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David (10)
I didn't refer your number 1.
David McNickle (11) wrote
"I wanted to know if you can dite a person as well as extradite them, but someone referred my post".
David you know very well what else you said in that post. You do yourself no favours by acting ignorant. If you have done no wrong the mods will put it back...won't they?
I don't know about extradite...I know what I'd like to do with some araldite!
Would you like me to refer your denigrating Harry Patch post as well then?
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As I remember, what I said in post 1 was deleted the last time I said it when the photo was used before. At least the mods (or complainers) are consistent.
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Work Place parking tax?
Call me naive, but surely the result will be commuters trying to find parking places in nearby streets? In addition companies will be encouraged to move outside the "city limits". People don't drive to work to burn petrol or compress diesel, they drive because they drop their children at school, because they need the car incase they are called to an elderly relative, because they are shopping on the way home, because they are going to the gym after work.
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fJd 3, In case you missed it, it ain't my photo.
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Jd 17, If I repeat it, you will just refer it again, so no sense in doing it. You say what offended you.
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Jd 17,
See my 15.
McKinnon's mum came across as someone who thinks her son can do no wrong and will go to any lengths to protect him because he has Aspergers. As it stands, he will be extradited and I hope a judge in the US will give him six months to be served in GB.
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Hear, hear to parking levies for workplace parking. It may be a blunt instrument, but the sooner we face up to the fact that lots of individual car use for regular journeys makes no environmental sense, and will become increasingly prohibitively expensive as we pass peak oil, the better. We need more things like this to focus people's minds on creative alternatives to the whole current paradigm.
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bb 23, What do you think about charging to park in hospital car parks?
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You said you knew someone with a certain diagnosed medical condition. the same as Mr Mckinnon suffers with. This is a medical condition with behavioural traits that the person diagnosed with has no or very little control over. Due to this, it is medically accepted this condition is a recognised disability and cannot be held against the person. Further it is a condition widely recognised as one that benefits from treatment and therapy...as opposed to social marginalization as punishment.
You described the person you knew as someone suffering this condition and went on to say because of this,this person had no sense of humor and was a pain in the four letter word for backside.
1) having no sense of humor is not a symptom of the condition you cite.
2) your language and attitudinal approach in that post was unwarranted and socially prejudicial to those with a medically diagnosed disability.
This is not acceptable in the United Kingdom. However, you will be glad to know, I won't be seeking your deportation.
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My (25) was for David McNickle.
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Mr McKinnon should be prepared to face up to the consequences of his actions which impacted on America. I admire his mother's faith in the English Court system, an opinion which I am sure is shared by the Birmingham 6 the Guildford 4 etc. I am concerned at the less than neutral stance on this issue by "PM" and "the World at One". It appears that Court decisions which back the government as in this case are up for debate but where they find against the Government, as on control orders, they show how wise the judiciary is.
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DMNC (22)
Good for her for fully supporting her son in getting the best in life for him.
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Shot me Rankin? A photo - but not photo finish yet Carolyn.
lol
I had a vistor today - on a special day. Interrupting the celebratory meal with A N OTHER.
Cross? I was red with it!
But I wondered about its timeliness. The visit and whislt the meal got cold I scan the horizon for whichever oldest ally was up this week. I agree with the Algarve lot but I suspect others were "out there"!
So was it just bad luck? As I said I did ponder and and lo - out of the ether came the answer.
Subject: But France is Scotlands oldest ally
Anagram: (Slett) no class - NT - (Yard Cub) false idol
Thanks people and have a great weekend everybody. Oh and smile! lol
National Theatre is doing well in Great Britain isn't it?
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#(27)
I don't think the issue is about Mr McKinnon not facing up to his actions. I thought the issue was about being able to be tried in the united Kingdom for the offense he committed.
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FJD (25):
As someone with Aspergers, I heartily agree with your 1) and 2).
David, grow up.
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Ref 19. jch_in_uk
"Call me naive, but surely the result will be commuters trying to find parking places in nearby streets?"
Not necessarily. The Workplace Parking Levy will equate to around 72p per parking space per day. How companies deal with the levy is up to their own creativity. Some may install a ticket machine and charge 72p - cheap for all day city parking. If employer operates a shift system, that could be reduced to 36p or less. Some may look at car-sharing; company bus/mini-bus; or synergies with other local companies. It might free up land for expansion or other use. It may appear a 'blunt instrument' as someone else mentioned; but it's a good way of getting companies and employees to focus on the issue.
Ref 27. lifegrumpy64
If Gary McKinnon had been a journalist seeking to expose weaknesses in National Security systems, and splashed his 'hacking breaches' all over the front pages, would he be treated differently?
As it happens, since Obama inauguration, FBI have been 'testing' US homeland security by attempting to 'smuggle-in' imitation bombs into sensitve US establishments, and have been succeeding, highlighting weaknesses.
General - McKinnon case
Put simply: UK has reciprocal extradition agreements with many countries. In those cases, the overseas country is required to present reasonably convincing evidence to UK and ask for extradition, which may or may not be granted.
The case with US is different. They only have to say "we want this person for this charge" - and that's it. No requirement for evidence. They can even ask UK police to trace the individual they want.
David McNickle
Of the first 24 posts, 13 are yours and none are funny.
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Richard_sm (32)
I work at my local university. for a number of years now they have charged staff to be able to park at university car parks. This takes the form of a tiny percentage of pay being deducted each month from salary. It amounts to something like 1% of pay. So on a salary of say 25 grand...its 25 quid a month to park. Although there is no guarantee of a parking place, I think everyone usually gets catered for. However, there is then a free bus service to various uni sites around the city. The problem is with these things it often turns out to be just another money spinner for the local council. They seem to carefully levy there charges so as not to hurt so much as to have the affect of people actually using an alternative transport to the car,thus council losing revenue.
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Who does he think he are? The Today programme. The Thought For the Day bloke in trying to get a message about Wes Hall's cricket ball being marked with humility or some such nonsense - gave away Kate Humbles "Who Do You Think You Are" secret - or one of them. Reminded me of Beryl Reid's Connie in the George Smiley TV series. My Canny boys? RIP Mr Robson.
I aint seen it yet - WDYTYA that is - Midsomer is still murder. Borg Queen/Chariots of Fire - Ms Krig - bless 'er - innit this week and I will not say whodunnit either! lol
So why cannot The USA President mention race? When you are mixed race as well? And the words covering flak - allegedly came to mind in a story involving unwise "recruits". MoP flops passed on the way here. Who knew?
I do NOT understand America you know. Better keep me away from them and their sensitivities.
Subject: but even he is not colour blind
Anagram: Onions Veldt hero - Bible Uncut
The word "unnerved" and BBC is in the above Subject too - but hey........ lol
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Re: Aspergers T.I.C. (Taken Into Consideration) Legally and Socially
Some people think differently slower in some ways better more intelligently in other ways at their own pace such as with computers and may have difficulties understanding various concepts such as sarcasm social rules pee taking bullying laws sexual signals finances being cool popular etc. but they are often very nice affectionate people they may/may not have aspergers or been catergorised or may be a bit -ish boderline
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David Cameron described Mackinnon as a young man - Mackinnon is 43 years old. That must make me middle aged - I start to draw my state pension in October.
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RSM 32, None of your posts are funny and are way too long to bother with.
FjD 25, To make things clear, I meant that people with the conditions I mentioned have trouble understanding certain kinds of humor. And those I talked on a forum and in real life admitted it. So you are wrong and I am right. Get over it.
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David McNickle wrote (37)
"So you are wrong and I am right get over it"
I reffered you for the prejudicial and denigrating way you expressed your rightness!
The mods seem to agree with me!
Are you over it yet!?
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jD 38, I've been referred more times than you've had hot dinners.
I actually wrote, "So you are wrong and I am right. Get over it." At least you've partially refound your punctuation and capital keys. Keep working on it.
Back to my origami. You can get out your crayons again.
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For one who has been reffered so many times, one wonders, why does one not one learn one's lesson? And why does one still wind oneself up so as to begin childish gibberish after all these referrals?...Oh well, back to one's balanced views....
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jD 38, Suppose some redneck Murcan with a few marbles missing decided to hack into the MOD computers (or wait until someone leaves the discs on a train)causing havoc because he thinks they are allegedly hiring Muslim terrorists and then has the stupidity to say that he is going to keep doing it because he doesn't like Brown's policies? Smack his hand, call him a naughy boy, and tell him not to do it again?
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David (41)
From what I know of 'red neck Murcans', (Beaufort T Justice)
I'd blame Enos!
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I leave the room for five minutes and when I come back you boys are at each other's throats ;o)
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7 - SSC - Burning the American flag is not illegal in the US, so that wouldn't arise, but I do understand the wider point you are trying to make.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/flagburning.htm
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Re: Asbo's 4 Aspergers:
Disproportionate numbers of children diagnosed with Aspergers have been handed Asbo's.
This does not reflect on the levels of crime committed by these children,
But it does reflect the levels of policing in reducing crime,
And the lack of action by schools to handle special needs children.
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lBG 44, As I remember, and without Googling, when it was illegal to burn the US flag, that was precisely the way that they recommended disposing of an old, tattered flag. Who says Americans don't understand irony?
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DMN@ 41. Your comparison is to an American with 'a few marbles missing'. Is that what you think of Mr McKinnon?
Asperger's Syndrome is not a mental condition: it is a neurological one. The pressure of life with the condition can give rise to other mental heakth issues, but the primary cause is physical.
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Typo: should read 'health issues'.
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Ref 7. The Stainless Steel Cat
No, as LBG says, burning US flag is not illegal, but donating to certain charities is. For example, Hamas was listed by the US as a terrorist organisation, but not by the EU until several years later. Anyone donating money charitably, and perfectly legally in UK, which found its way to Hamas (who were BTW a grass-roots social care organisation, so it was quite likely) could find themselves on the wrong end of American anti-terror legislation. Prior to 2006, you could have written out a cheque for ten pounds and sent it to ''Children of Gaza Relief Fund'' (I made that up) and they then passed the money Hamas Orphan Care, US could have named you for funding terrorism, and demanded you face charges in US courts. The situation I described may well occur again, because, much to US disgust, EU have proposed de-listing Hamas from their list of terrorist organisations. The US have in their jails, people who have donated money which was distributed amongst the poor by the Social Services in Gaza, because as the government, Hamas runs the Social Services.
Returning to flag-burning, it is regarded as illegal by some European countries, so if Germany did something which inspired people to burn the German flag outside their London embassy, they may well request their extradition, though amazingley, it's more diificult for them than USA. Our government has been quick to seize upon the 'positive' aspects of globalisation, but has failed to protect its citizens from the 'negative' effects of globalisation. If McKinnon committed a crime here, he should be tried here, where the maximum sentence for his crime is one year, NOT the sixty years he faces in US.
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Richard_SM (49)
A few years back the metropolitan police called for the burning of the union jack to be made illegal on demonstrations. I don't think it was though. No doubt they would have cited it as a health and safety issue to burn a flag in public.
Two Excellent points btw.
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Darkdesign (47)
There are obviously those who believe there is a mental health diagnosis called 'A few missing marbles'.
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LBG 44 - What you say about desecrating the "American Flag" is correct. However, as with many things, there are more ways than one, of skinning any particular cat:
The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled (1) that burning the American flag is a form of expression protected by the First Amendment. Municipalities have issued misdemeanor summonses for starting fires without a permit, however.
(1) See TEXAS v. JOHNSON, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) and UNITED STATES v. EICHMAN, 496 U.S. 310 (1990)
The subject of Gary McKinnon takes us to another area. A very different area entirely.
At first sight, this fellow would appear, in some respects, to be in very good "academic" company indeed.
For example, many respected historical figures have displayed symptoms of "Asperger's", including Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, and Thomas Jefferson.
From what I've heard and read, I'd have to say "The Guardian's" interview, a while ago now, with Mr McKinnon is, probably quite insightful.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2005/jul/09/weekend7.weekend2
"...He "caused damage and impaired the integrity of information... The US military district of Washington became inoperable and the cost of repairing the shutdown was $700,000 ... These [hacking attacks] occurred immediately after 9/11 ... " "
If true, serious. And, as things presently stand, I'd have to say Mr McKinnon has been/is being treated (whether "we" like it or not) in accordance with agreed treaties and laws.
However one-sided those instruments may be and/or appear to be.
At best this fellow's been utterly naive and foolish - I've heard of no medical evidence to suggest an alternative - and given latest legal decisions, nor, it would appear, has our Judiciary.
Perhaps, a case of "There but for the grace of God go..?" I exclude myself here (of course!) I don't have the computer "knowledge". Nor intent.
An important word 'intent".
The US Government was clearly utterly, utterly, foolish in leaving windows to its defence system "open".
But, that doesn't give anyone the right to enter un-invited. Contributory negligence..? Doubt it.
Whatever. At present, it's difficult to see how Mr McKinnon might escape a visit to the US. But serving a substantial sentence, maybe 60 years or so?
Doubt it.
US Federal Judges are not stupid. Very, very far from it, in fact.
My guess is Mr McKinnopn will be given a sentence (possibly non-custodial) and returned to the UK, for whatever form of "serving" is required. One can never tell so, always best to remember, if you can't do the time, don't do...
So, possibly more good news for the UK tax-payer...
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Charlie (52)
Interesting to find out that the American government offered Gary Mckinnon a deal of no more than 4 years in clink if he came quietly - and stayed quiet. When McKinnon asked for this in writing they withdrew the offer. Apparently US prosecutors are now seeking a 70 year sentence. Nothing like a proportionate sentence is there. But then we are dealing with a system that frequently gives out penalties of 300 years or more,as if the perpetrator is going to complete the sentence...screwy or what? Yes, he caused a certain amount of financial cost but, it was peanuts to the US government. Mckinnon admits his crime which (and I tend to believe) he seems to have committed more out of stupidity and naivety...but I guess only a court can decide. However, the US prosecutors seem to have decided already.
Alan Johnson says he will be breaking the law if he were to intervene and stop Mr Mckinnon's extradition. Since when as the possibility of breaking the law stopped this government from doing anything? Very convenient...
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But when when you did, you CIA Mercans, MI5 fessed up.
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I'm slightly confused again (so no change there...)
If the current Home Secretary's view it would be 'illegal' for him to intervene, how is it that - to quote the BBC main page article on the extradition issue ;
"Mr Johnson's predecessor Jacqui Smith formally gave the extradition the go ahead in October 2008. "
If it needed her approval, why can't that 'approval' be revoked by a diferent Home Secretary?
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dd 47, As I have absolutely no idea who you are, I have no intention of answering your questions.
jD, Did I say 'missing marbles'? Sorry, I meant Miss Marple. If you really supported MacKissick, you would be a bit consistent about how you spelled his name.
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DMN@56: If you don't want to answer, I understand. You are under no obligation. It is a free country, after all (yeah, right.) Your reason being that you don't know me, I admit I don't understand. This is a public forum in which you participate. You are a regular contributor in anonymous discussions. It seems a little odd.
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dd 57, The difference is that I am not anonymous and other posters know where I live and came from in the US.
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DMN@58:I take your point and accept what you say, but if I used my real name and gave my location, there would be no reason to take them as genuine. Any posting is (effectively) anonymous, irrespective of what I may state are my circumstances.
This is not questioning your honesty: just making a point.
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Gosh, to think David McNick could be 'invented'! ;o)
I am, David, only joking.
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