PM glass box for friday
It's that time of day. Crack open the drinks cabinet. And settle down to listen to PM. Then tell us what you thought of the programme. We'll be discussing it at 6pm in our Glass Box. Here's your virtual glass box for your comments. Rupert Allman is editing so do, please, tell him what you think.
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Re the PM newsletter and the story of a 16 year old falling off a cliff, and his mother blaming the resort for promoting itself as a party palce - if the legal age for buying alcohol is 18, where is the parental reponsibility - or is that just somebody elses' to deal with?
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Sadly,"our" fate may now be sealed. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"?
So, we may shortly find ourselves led through the wilderness for 40 years by a leader (perhaps "inspired" by magic-mushrooms) only to find ourselves finally in a "Promised land" which many would define as a hell on earth...
Wonder why none of this comes as a surprise!
"David Cameron 'may be directly descended from Moses"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198824/Cameron.html
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Cickey, look at the size of them thar Plums!
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I knew it wouldn't be long before someone outside of Parliament was prosecuted for their expenses claims:
An Essex Police officer has appeared before magistrates in Ipswich today accused of fraud over expenses he claimed for mileage. He was released on bail pending his next hearing at Ipswich Crown Court on August 7.
Is there any reason why he shouldn't be allowed to pay any over-claims back, just like MP's?
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And another example of apparent double standards:
Berkshire-based Mabey & Johnson appeared before Westminster magistrates' court today over charges brought by the Serious Fraud Office concerning bribery of overseas officials to achieve contracts.
BAE Systems was under investigation by the Serious Fraud Officea few years ago, amid claims it bribed officials to achieve contracts. A subsequent inquiry was told that Tony Blair, the Prime Minister at the time, applied irresistible pressure to end the SFOs investigation in 2006. The investigation was dropped soon after.
Is there any reason why Mabey and Johnson should be treated any differently to BAE Systems three years ago?
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The total number of British soldiers killed in Afghanistan is about to match the total of 179 British soldiers killed in Iraq.
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RSM 6, So how does that compare with 255 dead in 74 days in the Falklands, WW1, WW2, the Boar War, You Name It War? But then, who's counting? And, nobody forced them to join up. What annoys me is that very few, if any, MPs served in the armed forces, but are sending people around the world to be killed or wounded.
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It's all very well giving us a running tally of our losses, but why aren't we ever told how many Taliban we're killing? I mean, in their sandals and rags... they must be losing hundreds a month, no..?
Perhaps the problem is that, like Iraq before, we are fighting a war against civilians?
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D.McNickle (7)
There's a very simple personal and helpful rule of thumb regarding which wars one should support and which ones one shouldn't. It is this:
If you are generally prepared to personally fight, kill and die for whatever cause is at stake, then go ahead and support the war and join up if you can. If you are not, then you have no right to insist others should.
It's really not very complicated.
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D.McNickle (7)&(9)
Of course the "you" does not refer to you personally. Sorry if their was any misunderstanding - for "you" read "one"!
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Newquay: piss-up capital of England.
Don't knock it, it makes them a lot of money. Who cares about anything else?
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This is great, I've got this thing to myself..!
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JW 10, As I am 69.....
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JW, Careful, send too many in a row and a certain poster here will refer you.
Can you get nookie in Newquay? (Is that referrable?)
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Re: Bob Ainsworth
Please start challenging his disingenuous statements. He finished the interview with about fatalities in the new vehicles the MOD has bought for Afghanistan. He grouped the new vehicles: Mastiff, Ridgback and Jackal together.
The Mastiff and Ridgback are specifically designed to be mine resistant. British fatalities in these vehicles zero.
Jackal not designed as a mine protected vehicle and has been fitted with bolted on armour. Numerous fatalities in this vehicle.
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I have been visiting Newquay every summer since I was 18 (I'm now 25). It is a great place for young people to relax and have fun. Yes, there are some people who get too drunk and get into trouble but you will see that in every town and city in the UK on a Saturday night. I highly recommend it as a holiday for teenagers and young adults.
Also - in relation to under-age teenagers being old alcohol - I have been ID'ed every year and fully expect to this year. In my experience the bar and shop staff have always been especially vigilant in IDing customers.
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I listened again to the BBC line, or I am sure you would call it a narrative, on Afghanistan which has been promulgated over the last two days in all the news programmes. You are now in danger of forming public opinion which is not the job of the BBC. The power of news editors in selecting interviewees is immense and all the "usual suspects" have been paraded. Afghanistan is a far away country "of whom we know nothing" -- sorry that was Chamberlain's line about Czechoslovakia -- and should we not leave its people to the mercy of the Taleban. Surely it is at least arguable that it is right to confront Islamo-facism now rather than later when it will have spread. Do we really want another Munich?
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The bishop says his god is in the middle of everything...he doesn't seem to help out though does he? People still die...if human beings are *so* important you would thing he would do something about it...
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If you ask a soldier what he is fighting for, he may well say he is fighting "for his mates".
Jesus said: "Greater love hath no man that he be prepared to lay down his life for his friends."
Here we have Jesus telling us that laying down your life, selflessly, for your friends, it the greatest form of love that is.
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D.McN.(13)
You're okay then, but I believe there are plenty of 'seniors' in the Taliban... They don't have an ageist recruitment policy like us. We only do kids.
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12
Go for it! Your stuff is always good to read.
11
My son caught a fish there when he was seven.
13
The French have a word or two for it.
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lifegrumpy64 (17)
The BBC is constantly perhaps not forming public opinion, but certainly directing it. It's what it's for. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes less so. The arguments should not be whether it remains impartial or not because, except in the most obvious ways, it cannot be. The issue is, what world view is it promoting? Most of the values the BBC espouses are middle-class, liberal, Establishment and mostly white.
It's important to remember that the BBC is a very well established institution which does most of what it does extremely well. Unfortunately this includes promoting a view of the world which is frequently not shared by a considerable number of people in the country.
Examples of BBC 'views':
The market economy is the only possible viable option. Other views are marginal and dangerous.
Economists are the only experts on the economy
Politics is the preserve of politicians
Parliamentary democracy and its institutions and traditions are the only possible viable option. Other views are marginal and dangerous.
The US is a benign state that occasionally makes terrible mistakes and the UK is, without question its inseparable partner. Other views are marginal and dangerous.
The public are either stupid or trouble-makers
The Royal Family is an interesting and worthy subject
British sporting life consists of cricket, tennis, darts, football and snooker. Oh, and now Formula1 Motor Sport.
etc...
But don't forget, we all still own the BBC and I've been allowed to write this and it is at least in theory still an accountable and responsive body - far more so perhaps than Parliament, which, ironically thanks in part to the BBC, has got away with virtually zero promises of reform after all that fuss a month ago!
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Good evening Glass Boxers..thank you for your comments / thoughts / observations.
Tonight was what I describe as a "full fat" edition of the programme. Big names, big themes and big stories. Having listened you'll know what made it on the final running order - just sad we didn't have time for the chap in County Limerick who had a cracking take about finding the Virgin Mary in a tree stump and the resulting global interest in it.
The Secretary of State for Defence arrived in the studio with seconds to spare. He is a very busy man, but it was close. Newquay got many very worked up and the office had a big row whether we should cover the story about cosmetic surgery. We didn't.
Now if you think I'm going to wade into all the points raised by Mr Walker, then I'm sorry - no. Much of it I think is fair - but please " The public are either stupid or trouble-makers " - I like to think we are better than that - so much so that we make a programme every week that's entirely shaped by what our audience, the public, tell us. Of course, there is a culture - as there is in any big firm - but if we really did think the public were stupid ( and we don't ) do you think we'd be bothering with all this?
As ever, best wishes
Rupert
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Rupert Allman (23)
As I said, I really think the BBC is responsive and makes genuine and often impressive efforts to be accountable and to engage in discussion as closely as possible with the public. I accept your last point entirely.
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More talk of giving aid to Africa! When will we ever learn? Pumping millions in aid into Africa, or any other bottomless black hole, is a complete waste of money we don't have to spare. Or is all this talk of this being the worst recession since WW2 a lie? It may not go down well with the twittering classes and African warlords but the only way we can really help is to cut off all aid and let them figure it out for themselves. It's their mess, let them deal with it [if they want to]. Given enough time they will either wise up and sort themselves out or suffer the inevitable consequences. Either way it's none of our business and we should stop prolonging their suffering.
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People who phone 999 for any reason other than a genuine emergency should be fined so heavily that they are not tempted to do so again. Perhaps a penalty of one month's income would persuade them to stop behaving like ninnies.
Having said that though anyone wishing to report a non-emergency,
such as witnessing vandalism taking place, can no longer phone their local Police station [assuming they still have one] but must contact a call centre. Only after the caller has listened to some waffle about how committed the Police are to providing a good service, and in Wales having gone through the same blasted message in Welsh in order to satisfy ethnic sensibilities,does an operator deign to speak to you. By the time they have taken all your personal details and recorded the reason for your call and wiped the pastie crumbs from their mouths do they then pass the information on to the Police. By which time the drunken yobs are likely to be miles away. And this is supposed to be an improvement on the service we receive?
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My feeling at the moment is that I would have been a great deal happier if Obama had gone to Kenya, and Mrs Obama had gone to Ghana, and each was to have addressed Africa, each through the lens of their specific African heritages.
The experiences of slavery and of British imperial settlement impact on both countries, of course.
However, the differences in the specific narratives of Obama's and his wife's African-Americanness have different implications for us all.
I would prefer, as a British citizen, that the Obamas made our responsibilities even clearer to us than they will, through this different division of their diplomatic efforts.
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Rupert Allman (23) Thanks for putting in an appearance anyhow. Maybe sometime down the line "all this" will lead to better media communications. But let's get one thing straight. Some of us public ARE stupid. Me for instance. Thick as... well, whatever is quite thick. What's wrong with that, eh, you toffee-nosed twit? We still got our rights and pay our licences. Well, not me, I haven't got a telly. I've got a dog, though, but you don't need one for that. Still, it's the principle. Let's be quite clear. It still impacts on me. Sorry, what this does is, it impacts on me. Absolutely. Do you know what I mean? And can you so something about a few other linguistic monstrosities what alienate the likes of yours truly? Such as "he is appealing it". "he is protesting it". "The government (subst any collective term) are...." Normal stupid people talk properly and it's alienating listening to all this. When the BBC stopped talking with a plum in its mouth it seemed to take leave of grammar too. And grandad. Well, made me point. Bye old son.
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DO somethingm rather. Soz. Told you I was a bob short of a nicker.
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something, Dear Oh dear. I reckon I am bad enough for a job with you lot. Any chance. I'm dead posh and that, just thick.
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I don't really know if this is the right place to post this but, I've just heard what was in my opinion, an appalling interview on the Today program, presumably, with the parents of a young soldier killed in Afghanistan. Being from staunch working class roots, leaving school without a qualification and doing mainly manual work until I got wised up, I found this interview cringingly embarrassing.
I can't think of a any delicate way to put this but, I couldn't believe some of the uneducated and blatantly 'thick' statements the mother was heard to espouse.
"instead of all the MPs spending money on luxury houses, why can't we have some 'LUXURY' BOMBS". And, saying, "they [the troops] need spiritual support as well" when she meant [Humph having to help her out] political and moral support. "We are fighting a bully who refuses to come out and fight".
What I also found weird was the almost nonchalant acceptance of the death of their son. It felt like there was very little demonstrative mourning on the passing of their loved one. Or is this what being medicated by the 'my country right or wrong propaganda pill does to one'.
I was almost reminded of long lost past interviews of a similar 'thickness' where the person being interviewed knew what they meant but didn't have the vocabulary to express it so opted for the nearest sounding alternative like, 'sastificate' for 'certificate' or the woman who once said "I'm gunna su 'im for definition of characture" My Mum used to talk like this all the time and I just wanted to run and hide myself when she was having to deal with an official situation with someone who knew about vocabulary. Alright if you live among people who understand and practice this regularly but, national radio. Look at me, it can turn you into a right inverted snob. Sorry to have had to point this out in such serious circumstances.
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fJd 31, I know exactly what you mean. Interviews with some thick Americans embarrass the, er, heck out of me. And interviewers who ask stupid question like, "How do you feel?" are just as bad.
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rh 29, Better than having a Bob in your knickers.
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JW 20, I was OK at draftable age because I chose to go to college and get deferred from going to Vietnam. Of course, the other option was that Ohio is on the border with Canada...
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25. Serangoon
'It's their mess, let them deal with it [if they want to]. Given enough time they will either wise up and sort themselves out or suffer the inevitable consequences. Either way it's none of our business and we should stop prolonging their suffering.'
You don't think European colonialism treating Africa as a ready source of raw materials, and slavery have anything to do with the state of many African countries now?
Given that we're taking in increasing number of 'refugees' from failed states like Somalia, perhaps it IS our business.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
an another thing; they got no sense of humour....
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I wonder whether it was the blasphemy, the racial insults, the bad language (sorry STRONG language), the undue aggression, the incomprehensible spelling or just that it was true. Alas we may never know. Probably just that it didn't sound like the kind of person we WANT listening to (what is a) respectable radio channel like this.
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By the by, talking of which, I know it's the news and not PM but I wonder if Mr Miliband DID really say "grieviously", or whether the newsreader can't, er, read? Alas we may never know (part 2)
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But then good English - what is that compared with the feelings of all those troops, their families and friends - and the endless individual tragedies of all those others of every race and sect caught up in this conflict? I am sure millions of hearts go out to all of them. That sympathy could only be sullied by any ideological or political rider.
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With all due respect may I remind anyone who objects to my earlier comments that during Andrew Harding's report on PM he quoted President Obama as saying that 'Africans are responsible for Africa'. And that a former Kenyan Government Minister said 'This is our mess. We need to learn how to clear it up'. It would be nice to think they could do that without the British Government handing over £1.1 billion, that's all.
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31
I'm staggered. My dad used to do it and I loved him for it. He'd say 'Mmm,..thing!' and I'd know exactly what he was talking about - the fire in the kitchen had gone out, we needed to get some potatoes in, whatever. People were 'laXidaisical' and RSVP meant 'ReSpondez voo sivous plait'
His inarticulacy spoke volumes. Like in Invisible Cities. The truth forms in words in the mind, not on the tongue.
When people who talk that way come up against a poshie with a plum, my righteous anger is strictly the other way. Grammar and glamour have 'mystery' in common and they are usually used to mystify.
Bad grammar and vocabulary didn't cause her lousy political views nor the attitude that takes the death of a son as routine. Our politicians are talking of tough times AHEAD for the troops this summer. Unnumbered civilian deaths and the Nato losses are all part of a chilling impersonal calculus when it comes to top brass thinking. And they talk posh alright.
If the BBC used this woman to try to prove that the pro-war case is ignorant and barbaric, and that BBC method is what you are objecting to, then I am with you. It would be callous to the point of obscenity and completely ineffective. The only effect it could have would be in the mind of the sort of upper class twit who supports the war anyway and just thinks the mother is part of the loyal lower orders paying respect to her betters with her son's life.
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42
I wasn't trying to support any 'posh' way of talking and I think the BBC was doing what they should be doing as their normal practice. Get people affected by it to talk about their experience of 'it'. This is good journalism. Nothing wrong with that.
What I was trying to point out was, when I became interested in language, words and their meaning, I would look up the definition in the dictionary (which is so much easier on line today) before using them. When I found their meaning,this gave me a glue as to where I might be able to use them in what came out of my mouth. I also listened to and learned from others the correct usage of language and and application. This is not elitist 'posh' this is called educating one's self, especially if you want to convey publicly concepts and opinions.
The truth may be formed in the mind but, in attempting to communicate that truth, it might be helpful if it is said in language others can understand the concept of. Why should I have to do other people's interpretation of what they think they mean? This isn't being posh, its recognising that there is a world out there that we are all a part of and to to have some semblance of consistent language to operate properly.
My other point was when the mother in the interview said "why can't we have some posh bombs", said all I needed to hear about her opinions on Afghanistan. Wouldn't it be better to just bring the boys (and I mean boys who are barely out of childhood) than to drop our 'posh' bombs on poor villages with little more than small arms in an attempt to flush out this elusive 'bully'. I am against any form of terrorism but I fail to be convinced of what we are trying to achieve in this conflict. Have we not thought that that Muslim Afghanistan might not be capable of understanding Christian/secularist west invading their country raging war whilst trying to convince them that it is for their good too?
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43
Your posts are always excellent. Unequalled.
I see now I got you wrong in my 42, for which I apologise deeply. As per usual you were on the button.
If I may say so, I particularly liked the point you make that bullying whole villages of civilians is no way to deal with a killer holed up there.
For me, we seem to be fighting a whole population in Helmand, some armed, some not, all on the same side.
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Thinker (44)
Thanks for your kind comments. I'd like to reciprocate by saying your posts are always interesting too.
I agree with your comments on Helmand.
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fJd 43, My mother said pie-anno (piano) and git-tar (guitar). Iggerunt Pennsylvania ridgerunner.
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fJd 45, I just got an email saying that a post of mine had been removed. It was in the PM Moderation Clinic thread of a month or so ago. It mentioned you. Quick work, mods!
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DMNC
David, I really liked Jacky Gleason's portrayal of Bufort. T. Justice in 'Smokey and the Bandit'. His accent and whole characture has still been unsurpassed as far as I'm concerned.
"Why, I swear you are not from loins boy". "Enos, remind me to punch your mother when I get home"
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Which should read;
"Why, I swear you are not from my loins boy" "Enos, remind me to punch your mother in the mouth when I get home"
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I've just listened to that (at the link under 'UK troops in Afghanistan...' at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/default.stm
again.
Their pattern of coping with their tragic loss and their painful grief seems to have generated in them a narrative which helps them, I'm sure, but which may encourage others needlessly to give away their children.
In a loving way they seem to be saying 'He weren't much. A drunken teenager. He liked to shoot. He were born to die and us to lose him.'
Which without love or ex ante rather than ex poste, would be a way of throwing ones own children into a furnace to keep warm.
For 'They'd be marching up t''igh Road next, them bullies, otherwise'.
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fJd 48, Gleason also had an hour long TV show, conducted an orchestra, had a sitcom The Honeymooners based on a sketch from his hour program, and was Minnesota Fats in The Hustler.
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I hope that gin bottle (above) didn't leave a mark on the table...
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Richard @ 6
As you say, "The total number of British soldiers killed in Afghanistan is about to match the total of 179 British soldiers killed in Iraq ..."
Why on earth did Fiona Bruce have to add "for the first time"? Do news people write their own scripts, or do they just read what they're told?
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Sid 53, Do you get all those emails from the Lib Dems? Do you read them?
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I've come across another rhetoric from working class parents that worries me. They say their children whom they have sent to Afghanistan 'know what they're doing', meaning that Operation Panther Claw is a good plan which the troops understand. I got the impression that those particular parents had been 'in the know' about this plan for some time. Their rhetoric was strongly in support of it.
But the Cranfield prof says the troops don't understand the plan and the BBC says its progress is desperately slow.
The worry is that the parents' rhetoric will persuade other parents to sign away their children for a military future in Afghanistan. In fact I think it's designed to do exactly that. Because the biggest flaw in the plan is that the Taliban will return after the troops leave unless the British have a permanent army of occupation there. Which, in two years time, will comprise the sixteen year old children signed away by their parents this very coming Monday morning.
As I write this, the words Cyprus, Malaya, Kenya come to me. Know what I mean?
It's probably that commitment that the Cranfield prof wants our politicians to be definite about, now.
Which means, given that we all know how politicians lie, that that force of occupation is by no means a done deal. Otherwise, the prof wouldn't have bothered.
There is still time to stop it, if only we knew how.
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TR 55, Nobody is forced to sign up and you know it.
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