The PM Glass Box.
The Glass Box is where the PM team meets in at 18.00 every weeknight to discuss the content of the programme.
We try to be honest with each other, but not hurtful, as we talk about what worked and what didn't...what met our expectations and what fell short.
This virtual glass box is where you're encouraged to take part in the same spirit. The PM editor Joe Carr will read your comments and may well add her own.
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~51~RS~)
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Ooh, it's decided to go for a ramble today :)
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mittfh, can you blame it? Not alone in wanting to flee the country.
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I understand that David Blunkett has been trampled by a cow.
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A square cowpat. Very nice.
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(3) Is that a euphemism for getting caught with your pants down?
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Will PM be explaining the European election results? The far-right and anti-immigration parties seem to have done well. Yet we are all in an economic crisis which, it can be (easily) argued, would have been much worse had these parties been in charge.
So does that mean people are more concerned about immigration than the real economy?
Does it mean people are focussed on blocking Turkey from the EU and anti-gay measures (with which own Tory party have aligned themsleves).
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Tbird 5, Beats me. My wife just emailed it to me from downstairs. I think she saw it on ceefax.
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Tbird 5, Here is one link (I hope).
http://news.uk.msn.com/odd-news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=147845005
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yay! NOTA resurfaces :D It is almost a no brainer given the incredibly low turnout... I wonder if someone could run a poll to ascertain how many of the people who didn't vote in the recent elections would have voted if they'd had that option.
I really think it's important for us to maintain the momentum on this issue as there is a danger that once the immediate expenses row has passed things will just return to the business as usual situation. This really is a very unusual opportunity to change the system for the better.
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Eddie
Does PM not know of anyone who isn't devastated by Labour's results? I hope against hope that you're not partial.Is there any point in asking I wonder.
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b-e 10, They are just being transparent about it.
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David (7)
Are the cattle are wreaking their revenge at last?
Re cowpat; you have thought he'd have tried to round it off a bit before the photi.
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Ref 9. Dr Bee
Better to campaign to get the electoral system you want, rather than campaign to get NOTA. Achieving NOTA is simply a 'stepping stone.'
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How many complaints did the beeb receive yesterday after the shameless screening of an extended ppb in the shape of the West Ham q and a session? Is this not a story?
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My literacy is all over the place just lately.
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Richard SM (13)
One stepping stone at a time eh!
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Talking of cowpats, when are going to get another masterpiece David?
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fJd 12, Must have been painful coming out.
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I always thought Setanta sports was a crap name anyway. Setanta? what does that mean? Nothing to me, why should I subscribe?
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Here's the BBC News link to the David Blunkett article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8089498.stm
I notice in the "From other news sites" section, the Wail apparently reported it with the alleged quote "Even animals are angry with us".
Trust a newspaper to take a "Labour is doomed!" slant on it...
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fJd 19, I like the Dave channel.
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missfit, Much more official than the one I sent my wife. Must send her that one.
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David (18)
Now I know where the term 'brickin' it' comes from.
Joe Carr, please pass over our naughty humour. Great edition. varied and informative. I think the up shares guitar was good. I also thing there was more than one guitar on the go there me thinks?
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Ref 16. funnyJoedunn
"One stepping stone at a time eh!"
No. Campaigning for NOTA is a waste of time. A misguided objective. If it has any effect, which I doubt, it won't be acted on for at least 5 years, and probably much longer. And then you still have the same problem.
All it's likely to achieve is a response from the existing politicians that it's not their fault that more people didn't stand - followed by an invitation for anyone to stand next time.
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David (21)
I like the Joe channel.
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fJD 19, I was going to get Setanta, but didn't want to read the Setanta Clause.
I sent another piece of master, but it wasn't used. They used that rubbish woodchopping thing instead. Critics, bah!
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Richard SM (24)
How can I argue with that? But, I think Chris Ghoti might have something to say about it.
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fjd (19) If I recall correctly (and that's a big if) "Setanta" is the birth name of the famous Ulster hero Cu Chulainn. Help at all?
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fJd 19, I will describe it. It was Hazel Blears (badminton birdie representation)being beamed up into a UFO. Demand to see it.
The Wreath Lectures? How to make wreaths?
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"now is not the time for the party to turn in on itself and walk away from the concerns of ordinary people"
That's right - that happened years ago...
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redheylin (28)
Well there you go, an Irish China man. No wonder it was relevant to live football.
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One of your better broadcasts Eddie. The met office new computer brought out several broad smiles, mental agility should be an olympic event in 2012.
The piece on Californian fiscal problems was a refreshing change from domestic political stories, but subtle in the reference to people wanting social benefits but not prepared to pay for them.
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Joe Carr,
Hello again, would it be possible to see the latest McNickle sometime please?
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I presume now that the BNP has two members of the EP that they will be sitting with the Tories, now that they have moved so far too the lunatic fringe in that forum...so if true this is something that Brown et al could really exploit....especially when he is behind his desk playing with Trains (The Sunday Observer) or looking for new Labour's big 'Vision' ...I think however it got lost once Blair dropped clause 4....or perhaps it is in one of Blair's 6 homes....looking for a home....like many of us that are so poor that we cannot even afford One...home....
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Everyone seems to have forgotten what LDV stands/stood for...
Leyland Development Vehicles. It was political interference that saw these jobs lost to the North of England. It has only been a matter of time before a workforce that also destroyed BL (remember British Leyland), remember Leyland Vehicles, and before that Leyland Cars, destroyed Leyland Development Vehicles.
It is sad that the BNP have been electorally endorsed, but the North of England is tired of being ignored. And often robbed, as in the case of LDV.
N. R. Thomson
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Couldn't help noticing that all reports about the BNP carry the highlight that the number of votes they received was less than they achieved in 2005. So what? That also applies to all the main parties since fewer botherd to get to the polling stations....but no report includes the fact as it applied to other parties.........why not?
No, I am not a member or supporter of the BNP and I am only commenting because it is obviously a deliberate distortion of facts and hopes to create further negative awareness ...
If our present govt got to grips with the farcical failure to deport enemies of the country and dealt realistically with securing our borders there would be no place at all for parties such as the BNP...........
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I am all for this repatriation of non-indigenous people! For a start, if we chucked out all the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans....
fjd - Chinese??
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redheylin (37)
All I can go on is the way the spelling looks to me. I haven't got a clue how'd you pronounce it. Anyway, what are you doin' knowing stuff like that!?
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See wotcha mean - but "cu" is just "dog" (cognate - "chien") whereas the Chinese word is "wu" (cognate "woof"!)
The last bit is pronounced "Coolin". Setanta is pronounced "setanta", which is odd for Gaelic. How I know? By studying language, myth and poetry. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it. So this guy was called Setanta but ended up known as "the Dog of Coolin". And, obviously, when you are looking for a name for a TV channel.... They were going to call it Finn ma Cool, but it sounded like an expletive.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuchulain
(Zif anybody cared!!)
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European Elections
These recent elections were for a European Parliment not a Westminster Parliment. There was a total absence of political discussion about European matters ,which fundentally affect all our lives Do we have to assume that our politicians of all persuasions are either ignorant cowardly or just uninterested.
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Have look at this publication on Glenys Kinnocks website.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
It lists the top 50 "achievments" of the EU. Have look at the first item about"Working in Europe today".
It may explain the ascendancy of BNP and UKIP.
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A few years ago, Nick Griffin famously had a fraternal reunion with Le Pen, who came from France for the occasion.
There were massive police roadblocks on all the roads leading to the BNP lair. And who were they looking for? Protesters, who were trying to disrupt that disgraceful event.
I know it, because that lunchtime I was stuck in a car with friends at just such a roadblock, on our way to lunch, at least 20 miles away from the house where Nick Griffin was due to entertain his French colleague in word and deed.
There was a long queue of cars, as they had closed off the minor roads and put diversion signs towards the roadblocks. Two policemen inspected the interior of my friends' car very closely, clearly looking for placards, or maybe weapons. I just go by what, later that night, I saw on TV the people, who did manage to get through, brandish outside that reception.
What is more, there was about a dozen powerful motorbikes by the road side and plenty of strong young men in civilian clothes relaxing like coiled springs on the grass verge, ready to give chase to any protester car which might try to pull away.
"This is the price we must pay for democracy", my friends patiently explained, as I was spitting brass tacks even after more than 35 years as a British citizen. You can take a girl out of a Soviet dictatorship and all that...
At least then he and his crew were such a lunatic fringe. Now two BNP heavies will speak on behalf of the UK in Europe because we, the people, have sent them there. Something in me has died last night...
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fJd @ 27, must I? Oh, all right then...
Why does it have to be either/or? black/white? if you're not for us you're against us? What sort of old-fashioned dialectical system is being advocated here?
I see nothing wrong with wanting a NOTA option in any voting system you propose to put forward. I don't see why I have to be in favour of *any* of the candidates, and why if I am not I should be deprived of any way to say so.
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redhaylin (28): ""Setanta" is the birth name of the famous Ulster hero Cu Chulainn"
If I remember from reading the Tain bo Cuailnge (an ancient tale in the myth cycle of Ulster) years and years ago, Setanta killed the dog of Culann and took its name or place until a replacement could be found, hence Cu Chulainn*.
He was a great hero.
Horsey? Lady Sue?
*Don't ask about the extra h and i. Too complicated. Signifies what us oldies would think of as the genetive or 'of' case in Gaelic
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redheylin,
My ignorance is undone. Thanks for the info. Good to know there are inteligent people out there.
Chris Ghoti,
I just thought you might want to say something about having the right to say bog off to the lot of them. It might not be everyone's cup of tea. But, you should be able to express it until something you would like to support happens along. I feel you should also retain the right to comment on and complain about political situations even if you abstain. But, that is another matter maybe?
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I am really cheesed off, but not totaly suprised , that my post was moderated.(42)
I was hoping that some of you would read the link from Glenys Kinnocks website, that would have fueled the debate about the rise of the BNP and UKIP.
If we cannot let off a bit of steam now and again on a serious issue without getting "moderated", whats the point?
The Forest beckons
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FJD (46) I find that, the more I am knowledgeable, the less people are aware of a deep and ineradicable stupidity. Handy!
While you are on the subj - you may have heard MPs say, rightly, that, of course, they are there to serve their entire consituency, not only the people that voted for them. And that is the case; that is the job they are paid to do, just as your local councillor ought not ask, if approached regarding some matter concerning their ward, whether you voted for them or not. That would be bad and wrong.
Hence I do not see any problem about contacting my MP on this and that matter - and of course my MP has never asked if I support any party. Therefore it is absolutely possible that one can be politically active and still choose not to vote. If one finds one has a hard-working, honest MP then trying to make sure they keep their job is far more important than a single vote. In my case, I have and I do. But I will not vote for any unknown person on party lines, as in the Euro election under any circumstance - I will, though, and do, argue the case for Europe. I have done so a good deal lately, because, unfortunately, immigration is a serious issue that disposes people who feel disenfranchised and without prospects to violence. That is why it is absurd to suggest that a person who, like me, attempts to heal divisions in their local community is somehow "apathetic" compared with a person who pursues the ideology and advantage of their own social stratum, via a party, against and at the expense of others' ideologies and advantages. I thenk yow!
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Chris G (44) I agree but, by the same token as my response above, you can readily contact your local candidates and explain to them why you will not be voting for them. It will be interesting to see how each responds.
But no amount of NOTA and no system of PR will undo the basic fact that one vote covers a multitude of issues and leaves the politician to interpret the reason for your single vote. Why is, say, the Labour Party not getting your vote in the EU polls? Is it that Brown's a clown? Is it party disunity? The recession? Privatisation? If there were a mechanism to indicate this, then people would vote according to their feelings about Europe in th EU poll, about their local ward in the LGovt polls and so forth. This is, very clearly, not what goes on and this in turn is, also clearly, bad for our govt and for us.
Hence it is better to see who gets the job then tell them personally and in detail what you want from them. You then have several years to canvass for or against them in your local community of your own back, purely based upon their attitude and performance without reference to their party affiliation. Works for me.
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Frances O - if you'd care to decline "Culann" for us, I am sure it would meet with approbation and festivity and redound greatly to the masses' already high estimation of your cultural attainments. Single and plural pls..... I suppose that you already know that, strictly speaking, a vole is only a vole when you are addressing said vole? So;
volus
vole
volum
volis
voli
vole
voles
voles
voles
volorum
volis
volis
(This is all highly irregular......)
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2nd declension, then? O vole?
I can't really decline Culann, though. He's too big, and still cross about his dog. We're going for a curry and chips on Friday.
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And I only studied Scots Gaelic. But re that language:
I found these, though, if I don't get modded for posting a link (sigh):
http://www.geocities.com/alltandubh/Leasan3.html
http://www.geocities.com/alltandubh/Leasan8.html
http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/s/c/Scots_Gaelic_language.html
Aren't you glad you asked?
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fJd 23, 'Pinching a loaf'?
Wot Joe channel. There is a Dave.
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fJd 31, Belleek?
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Ah, the return of the pedants.
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Hello everybody, and thanks for the kind comments, FunnyJoeDunn. Felt like a wave of stories burst over us yesterday, and which ones to highlight is always worth thinking about. My feeling about the BNP's two MEPS was that it had been covered quite extensively on the Today programme and elsewhere- we had in our time an anti BNP rally which we coupled with a very revealing interview with an ex Labour now BNP voter. But for me, Labour being beaten into second place in Wales was worthy of exploration because as we heard from Howard Davis, it's a body blow for that party. As ever, there's much more we could have done, but I hope you felt that overall you got a fair picture of the shape of the day.
And don't be misled by Edie Mair- I remain a Jo (Joanna, in fact).
Jo
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fJd 33, See, you aren't being tough enough with the editrice. Enough of this 'please' stuff. Stand up and be a man! Demand to see my thingy! (Working on a beach thingy.)
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O France (50), it started out second, but slipped into third and without declutching. On mature consideration I'd like to go for
vole
vole
volem
I understand that Cullan is hard to decline. I can only suggest that, on Friday, you do not get drawn too easily into conjugation.
DM (55) I am not a pedant, I am a pandet. There is a subtle difference which will take some time to explain but which is of great importance, so, as soon as I have the time, I shall get back to you.
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(23) Yes the guitarist was lovely and I am sure (s)he will be chuffed that (s)he sounds like two of them.
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(58) Awfully sorry, should read "not a pidunt*, I am a pundit"
*(first conjugation, present tense indicative, third person plural)
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redheylin @ 49, the problem as I see it, with any and every form of electoral system, is that the chances of any candidate for any legislature agreeing with my views on every point are pretty slim. For instance: the Greens have a lot going for them, but am I happy with the eugenics aspect of some Green policy? well, up to a point: sterlisation of the unfit may not be an entirely evil thing for all that it was advocated by a thoroughly nasty bunch historically, but *who is to decide who is unfit and should be sterilised*? Things like that may make me unable to vote for a given party.
Each party may have some policies I would not want to support. Does have, in fact. So I might end up with nobody I wished to vote for apart from the Pirate party, and they only have candidates in Sweden.
Unfortunately, "wait till s/he has been elected and then get in touch when you need them" is all very well, but suppose that my anxiety concerns the removal from this country of a child who was born here and has lived here all his life, speaks only English, and because of his parentage is to be sent to a war-zone in which English is not spoken. I somehow don't feel that a BNP MP is going to give this as much attention as (say) a Liberal Democrat one would.
If my local MP has stood up and said "I will vote against top-up fees" and then when the vote on top-up fees happens votes for them, she can be voted out in the next General Election, but in the meantime (three years or so) she can vote with her party and support any amount of other new legislation that I don't support at all. What will lobbying against her at that point achieve? Sure, she loses her seat for that lie; but does that do any good really?
I don't remember *any* politician campaigning on a "we will introduce two or three new laws for every day Parliament is in session" ticket back in 1997...
Every so often I have found some party to be so utterly odious that I have campaigned against them (the National Front was a case in point) or some cause so important that I have campaigned for it (not treating homosexuals as criminals jsust for existing, for instance) but I don't remember the totality of any political party being what I would call "on my side" about such things.
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Chris @ 61
One of the benefits of multi-member constituencies is that you'd have a choice of which MP to go to ...
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fJd, No, not that thingy.
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red 58, Forums (yes, I know) are full of pedants.
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red 60, Sure you aren't Pandit Nehru?
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red (pick a number), I think you are a peduncle.
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no -
a peduncle is the ornamented foot of a bishop's throne. My god, no wonder the country is going to the dogs. Why, just now Nils the Numbers referred to the "rendition" of the Upshares theme. "Rendition"? That is extraordinary - rendition means to hand over or give up. It is a "rendering", if you would be so good. You know, the values that made this country great are falling to peices even as we speke. FORUMS? Ha!*
Ha
Ha
Ham
Hae
Hae
Ha
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Red 67, A pederast?
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DM - 68 - No, that's the bishop.
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Labour MP's, political pundits etc seem to be concentrating upon Gordon Brown's inadequacy as a human being and assume that this is why the public have fallen out of favour with him. In fact the problem is his inability to carry out the duties of Prime Minister. In particular his judgement has been badly deficient on a number of serious issues:He failed to anticipate the collapse of the economy; He didn't even consider the catastrophic consequences of abolishing the 10p tax; he badly mishandled the Gurkha situation; his response the the MP's expenses debacle was wholly inadequate and as for the appalling lack of courtesy to our Queen on the D Day event, words fail me. In short he is not up to the job and that is why he should go. The fact that he is totally lacking in shame should not deter members of the Labour Party from doing its duty for all our sakes.
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Chris G (61) Thanks very much for your comprehensive reply, and I hope you will understand that the time I took to respond is a measure of the consideration it deserved. There is much in what you say. I do, however, think there is something to be gained from lobbying sitting MPs - even if we were to have a BNP one, they are still your MP and must fulfil certain obligations*.
I just heard our Eddie say that, next week, PM is to hold a forum on reform. I daresay that is because people are talking about it. It's not the same, but if enough people talked to their MP about it, some impression is sure to be made. It takes 20,000 to vote somebody in, but 1 per cent of that number turning up at a surgery in a year would make the point that; you are our MP, not the party's.
I am simply saying that, when we vote, even the manifesto as a whole is only part of the reason we vote. I do not want a referendum on every issue (though it would be easy these days), but it would be preferable if our reps had a good idea why we put them there and what we expected of them.
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*You can always get your hardest mates to offer them a kicking if they do not comply. When in Rome....
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redheylin @ 71, thank you for your reply.
I admit that I was perhaps not *entirely* serious in my post -- after all, I have voted in every election I have been eligible to vote in apart from the referendum on whether we should join the Common Market: I wasn't living at home at the time, and I didn't really want to travel two hundred miles just to vote, so I found someone who was going to vote the other way and we agreed to "pair" on the matter.
I do go and pester my MP at intervals -- and send emails, which if the present one doesn't bother to acknowlege are going to cause him to lose my vote next time round. I've tended to do that all my life, too.
I still want people to have the option of voting and having their vote counted as "I don't like any of the above, a plague of all your parties" rather than spoiling their papers and not having the reason for their peeve recorded except as "spoilt vote, cause unknown".
Sid, I woud feel that having a choice of two or three MPs each of whom represented me might be fun, but it would probably mean that I felt obliged to go and talk to each of them about any given gripe.
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