The PM Glass Box.
The Glass Box is where the PM team meets in at 18.00 every weeknight to discuss the content of the programme. We stay six feet away from each other.
We try to be honest with each other, but not hurtful, as we talk about what worked and what didn't...what met our expectations and what fell short.
This virtual glass box is where you're encouraged to take part in the same spirit. Tonight's PM editor Eloise Twisk will read your comments and may well add her own.
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~19~RS~)
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The government is supposed to be spending too much.
How much is this war in Afghanistan costing?
Isn't it a war we can do without, Eddie?
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Love the strap.
How about 'Condemn' 'Israel' 'Gaza' 'Murder'?
Or are they too close to words of peace rather than words of war?
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Eddie
Just noticed the listeners straplines on your masthead!
There's some Greek chap who posts on Justin Webb's page quite often, who offered this pearl of wisdom:
"Peace is Possible. Without it - life isn't."
Excellent! He might be a philosopher! Probably not. More likely some Greek giggolo with his oft-used phrases trying to impress fiftysomething divorcees!
And then there's this American pothead, 'Happylaze,' who's posts are generally mispelt, unrelated and quite incomprehensible, but occasionally comes up with a little gems like this, after he'd considered nuclear proliferation issues:
"Apparently only nations who attack other nations can be trusted with nukes."
Sometimes that stuff he smokes really works.
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That Joanna Lumley gets about, doesn't she?
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I don't doubt Plumley's sincerity, she a Ghurka officer's gal after all, but she does love the limelight, and hasn't been on TV recently. Why the Ghurkas need a white lady to represent them is somewhat patronising however.
The media seem to go gung-ho at the slightest opportunity, as well as scurrilous politicians who want to bang the drum in the belief it makes them popular. But these people are mercenaries, they do a job for the British state for money, without any problem of international law saying a war is illegal, and their reputation as bloodthirsty fighters is hardly something to boast about these days. They are paid a wage and then a pension which enables them to live very comfortably in Nepal. Where did this supposed right to retire to the UK come in and what's the justification? Were they ever promised it? Or did they all sign up without such a promise? Good grief, she's really lapping it up, most ageing actresses don't get this sort of attention.
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3. Richard_SM:
'And then there's this American pothead, 'Happylaze,' who's posts are generally mispelt, unrelated and quite incomprehensible...'
That's spelled 'whose', and did you mean misspelled? Spelt is an ancient indiginous British species of wheat.
When you criticise someone for misspelling, you'd better get it right.
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I've noticed that Joanna Lumley has been appearing in various venues carrying a razor-sharp knife. Can I do that?
Okay, lest anyone mistakenly think that is a remark aimed against Joanna Lumley: it isn't. I completely support the Gurkha cause and her campaigning for them. I also quite like the way she just politically crucified the Prime Minister. Formidable.
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Sue (4) That she does...Still fit too
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Did anyone else find that Wetherspoons chap incredibly irritating to listen to? I was nearly tempted to turn the radio off rather than listen to his slow, moaning drawl.
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Does anyone have the necessary scientific knowledge to answer this:
Everyone outside Mexico now getting H1N1 flu is said to be mildly ill and recovering quickly. The talk is about it fading out and then reappearing in the autumn much more virulent, thereby lies the fear.
People develop antibodies to any disease organism, that's how we get well again, so anyone having had this phase of the flu will have antibodies ... when it comes back in the autumn won't they then be immune? Or at least able to fight it off quickly. If this is so, wouldn't it be a good idea for it to be spread as fast and as thoroughly as possible, or does the government not want a population with immunity?
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mittfh - you are not alone!
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Re the unbelievable bloke from witherspoons;
Can anyone enlighten me as to what unbelievable circumstances it would benefit anyone to be paid below the minimum wage for working in the catering trade other than to avoid correct procedure?
I don't care what defense anyone wants to put up, its just wrong to mislead the public over their tipping, apart from the immorality toward their staff. The last Time I when tipped eating out, (about once a year),I specifically asked the waitress if she got the tip or did it go to management. Her reply was, It goes to me, the management get enough already. She got a good tip.
Ask before you tip. Don't if the person/people who served you don't get the full amount on top of their wage.
To the bloke at witherspoons, I don't care if your business fails (which I doubt). What you said comes from the same morality that tries to justify child labour in third world countries saying, well they would have nothing if we didn't employ them. Bull and something that sounds like chip to you matey.
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A new verb 'to lumley' meaning to come from a private meeting and comment such that to go against those comments would cause acute embarrasssment to the other party
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John Pienaar!
Now the suggestion that what a politician told Ms Joanna Lumley may have been misunderstood by Ms Lumley?
Fine. I accept that but I was yelling at my radio at the media pack surrounding the lady demanding she make Government policy on the hoof by getting her to say what the Prime Minister and her had discussed.
And we are surprised that what a politician said to a non professional politician was open to have been misundestood?
I sigh. Oh and someone has been promising me I could live in another country for years now. Or did I misunderstand, John Pienaar?
"Come all without - come all within - you aint seen nothing like the Mighty.........."
Well actually. I aint seen nothing, Carolyn.
Pardon the poor English. lol
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(8) Tbird: I know. I think she is terrific and a brilliant role model for the 'older woman' in so many ways. I do think she is playing an interesting game though. Her rhetoric about what a man of integrity the PM is and how he is bound to do the right thing... she is firmly putting the ball in his court and lining him up for huge public embarrassment if he doesn't do what she wants him to do. Will be interesting to see what happens.
mittfh and Sid: me too!
Re. the political broadcasts (where's Jim when you need him?): what's that Bob Dylan song about politicians canvassing for votes that has the line, "He's eating pizza, he's eating ..."
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P.S. to my last one... I doubt whether Ms Lumley is going to get another invite to Buck House for dinner after her clanger.
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Peter Bazalgette has a bare-faced cheek calling any TV programme "dire". Being responsible for "Big Brother" he's following in his great-great-grandfather's footsteps, treading in... sewage.
A very strange choice of guest to talk on this topic.
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Eddie: I've just had a look at the webcam. You are blending seamlessly in with the newly repaired desk. Did you get your wrinkles sorted?
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Lady sue (4)
Yes, Lubberly, lovely, Lumerly and her great big knife.
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Oh TSSCat: how'd we do that? Just as the Cat Curfew piece has come on we've traded places ... spooky.
Thank goodness for Cat Curfew Man. Sweetheart only doing his best for the birds.
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Hmmm, can't quote figures on how many birds are killed by cats, but it's significant?
Waffle.
Bring me the figures, *then* convince me that we wouldn't be overrun by birds if we have a cat curfew.
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Gosh Eddie: you are putting me in mind of that clever art student who disguised her car.
(Do I risk being 'struck off'?)
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Re cats, sparrowhawks and magpies
Please don't choose this as it is nonsense!
Cats - my cats have only ever caught one bird in ten years, a nestling which had fallen out of its nest. I set it free unharmed. I have never seen one other cat in this area with a bird in its mouth, nor bits of birds lying around. I have, however, direct experience of shrews and mice being caught regularly. A curfew would most likely benefit the small rodent population. Birds are generally still at night in their roost, cats go for things which are moving.
Magpies - I looked out of my window this morning to see a collared dove chasing away a magpie bigger than him, as his chicks had just hatched. It is a myth that magpies kill lots of chicks - I am sure it occasionally happens but generally they just clean up chicks which die naturally, to my observation.
Sparrowhawks - they are now thriving as the small bird population is growing. They ambush birds in the air - chicks are a possible target but rather less common than unwary adult birds flitting between trees providing a tempting moving target.
Please don't peddle this nonsense!
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A curfew on cats isn't the answer, cats kill garden birds all day long, if they are fitted with a bell, or the latest ultrasonic collar, the birds get a warning and far fewer are killed. The problem is irresponsible owners [as with dogs] and education would go some way to drawing the problem to their attention; a place for public information broadcasts perhaps.
Re the numbers killed Eddie, the most recent figures are from the Mammal Society, which estimates that the UK's cats catch up to 275 million prey animals a year, of which 55 million are birds. Not just a large number, more a disgraceful and avoidable holocaust of birds.
Cats don't eat what they kill, food comes out of a tin or pouch and is served by humans in their dish. But their predator instincts are still there, so something small and fluttery has to be pounced on and killed - if it's lucky, I've seen a blue tit have both legs bitten off by a cat, and a one legged starling I saw recently most likely suffered from the same killer instincts.
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In the Nineties, John Paul ii gave an interview broadcast over Polish radio in which he said the Vatican's ultimate goal was to move its headquarters to Jerusalem.
Mr. Peres seems to be assisting in this cause.
The Vatican has a very powerful friend: The European Union.
And it's a European Union from which Britain is excluded.
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Here are the figures Nils declined to give:
A magnificent Manchester United 4.
A dismal Arsenal slightly above zilch.
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Invisibleatheist;
"Cats don't eat what they kill"
Wrong, my cat eats the occasional mice he brings home if I don't relieve him of them. But, only after the ritual of presenting me with his trophy first.
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24. invisibleatheist
Re cats - the important thing you said is "estimate" of number of birds killed by cats. It is guesswork and almost certainly wholly wrong.
I have a vague memory that some organisation is planning to do some real research on this issue starting this year.
Despite a very large cat population in my village, we have large numbers of small birds breeding successfully every year, including at risk species such as sparrows and starlings. So I really don't think cats are such a problem.
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Re: Cat Curfew
My little girl doesn't get to go out at all (unless on a lead) - a combination of a busy road a few feet from the front door and the need to keep her away from unsuitable boyfriends. She seems quite contented with her lot, though, (any more laid-back and her paws would be in the air all the time!).
But what about the "Working Cats"? I mean the ones that keep the rodent population down around stables, barns etc.
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23. Happyhomeworker
Your cats are clearly angels and understand it's cruel and perhaps have learned from a mouthful of feathers that birds aren't as good as mummy serves them. Believe me, cats kill birds, no queestion, yourlimited experience really doesn't stand up to the combined observations of thousands of people.
Magpies are wrongly villified, you're right, I see Magpies every day and the small birds don't react, they are much too fast for a relatively large and slow bird like a Magpie to catch in the air. I'm surprised at the dove though, they seem to form a part of the diet of quite a few species including Magpies, crows and foxes, perhaps defending young is the one area that gives them the confidence.
Sparrowhawks by their name you would think predate sparrows, but I think that's part of the mythology and they're really mostly carrion eaters. Some farmers think badgers hunt and kill lambs! So country lore is not always too reliable.
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Richard_SM @ 3, if you are going to snipe at someone else's posts on the grounds of their grammar or spelling, you should proof-read your own posts very carefully.
Then you may not commit such errors yourself.
I assume that by "who's posts are generally mispelt" you meant "whose posts are generally mis-spelt".
(That apostrophe in "who's" represents an elided letter, in this case an i, which means that the phrase translates into English as "who is posts". I don't know what a mispelt is: a poor hide, perhaps?)
You might also consider the possibility of an apostrophe after "listeners" in your "listeners letters", the usual spelling of "gigolo", and the fact that by saying "posts ... comes up with" you are using a verb in the singular with a plural noun.
I think there is a rule about this sort of thing on usenet, and I expect someone to come along shortly and tell me what it is called, as well as pointing out the error in this post. (The rule states that since I am pointing out your mistakes, I will have made at least one myself.)
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30 invisibleatheist
It would be nice to think my cats are angels! The reality is one of them regularly dines on mice and shrews, despite the abundant fare I offer them.
My limited experience of being a birdwatcher and nest recorder notwithstanding, my point is that the figures bandied around are not based on fact but on statistical calculations.
I think the new research asks people to record whenever a cat brings a bird home or is observed with one, which should produce more accurate figures.
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Invisibleatheist (24):
1) The Mammal Society? Nothing like having a wide brief, is there? I wonder if they have figures on the number of whales killed by cats...
2) I agree cats should be belled.
3) "...of which 55 million are birds. Not just a large number, more a disgraceful and avoidable holocaust of birds.
A *wee* bit over the top I think. For a start, just chucking that number into the discussion tells us nothing. How many birds survive in Britain each year? If it's down in the thousands, your hyperbole would be justified. If it's in the billions, then it's Natural wastage. Is the bird population dropping significantly year-on-year? Are there no other environmental factors involved? I'd imagine Bee-eaters are getting scarce, or at least thin, but that won't be down to cats.
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21. The Stainless Steel Cat
'Bring me the figures, *then* convince me that we wouldn't be overrun by birds if we have a cat curfew.'
As my post above [24] explains, it's 55 million birds. No, 'we' won't be overrun by birds, natural death rates and predation by natural animals regulate populations, the cat is outside the ecosystem and the food chain, and it's numbers would be unsustainable without cat food. At present small bird numbers are declining overall despite some laying and raising two or even three clutches of eggs in a season.
Stainless Steel cats are best, they eat nuts.
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Could someone explain why the Gurkhas are different to any other mercenaries that they deserve an actress representing them and why it seems to have become a 'moral' case?
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Chris (31)
Now I know why I wasn't accepted at Cambridge. You great big Brain box you.
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33 The Stainless Steel Cat
You're right, environmental factors are a big issue in the decline of small birds.
E.g. house sparrows and starlings decline - due to a lack of nesting sites because of modern house building practices (we have a healthy population here due to lots of old houses with space under the roof)
Cats are most likely to take young birds which fall out of the nest, just as fallen nestlings are likely to get run over by cars (as happened to a young mistle thrush here last week).
Has anyone counted the number of birds killed by hitting cars/lorries? Perhaps we should ban the combustion engine...
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invisibleatheist (34):
And as *I* explained, the 55m figure is useless without context. What is the overall bird population in Britain?
I disagree that "the cat is outside the ecosystem".
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3. Richard_SM:
"That's spelled 'whose', and did you mean misspelled? Spelt is an ancient indiginous British species of wheat.
When you criticise someone for misspelling, you'd better get it right."
VERY TRUE, AND DID YOU MEAN
"INDIGENOUS"? Pots and kettles...
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My message at 39 was of course meant for
6. At 5:13pm on 06 May 2009, invisibleatheist wrote:
3. Richard_SM:
"That's spelled 'whose', and did you mean misspelled? Spelt is an ancient indiginous British species of wheat.
When you criticise someone for misspelling, you'd better get it right."
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Re Cats
"everyone"* knows that it is the cats that keep rats 6 feet away from human habitation. if the cats were kept in, with some sort of curfew, the rats would soon up the number of eggs eaten out of birds nests, causing a drastic fall in the number of garden birds.
noodle
* Yes, I read Dick Whittington as a young noodle.
(disclaimer:
That rats are the main eater of sparrows eggs is pure speculation, and does not contain the figure "55 million")
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12.
The wrong people are waiting on tables here.
In Paris, after the Russian Revolution there were waiters who were aristocrats running from social justice.
And so finding it.
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15. Lady Sue
You have brilliantly expressed what I was meaning to mention before getting distracted by misspellings: listening to her interview I also thought that Gordon is now on the spot and no mistake. I think she knew precisely what she was doing.
12.fJd
You are right, of course. But I even don't bother asking if the tip goes to them in case they are told what to say. I just slip them a tip quietly, with a thank you and get a smile and a thank you back.
By the way, I have kept cats and dogs all my life. Cats can eat what they catch, but it is true that they also catch birds, mice, frogs etc to exercise their hunting instinct. Even a cat who is fed at home would not resist catching a mouse in a barn.
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Ref #31 Chris_Ghoti
If you are going to snipe at someone else's posts, perhaps you should read the posts very carefully before launching an attack. Perhaps you will then see it was a light hearted post. You might also have visited Justin Webb's page before your rush to criticise, where you will see that I have a very good 'relationship' with the poster, 'Happylaze.' Unlike you, I check before I criticise. Some of your posts fail to use capital letters at the start of a sentence, nor a full stop at the end. At 10:20pm on 27 Apr 2009, Chris_Ghoti wrote:
these mods are a phenomenon.
so they have removed post 50
but they have so far left alone the two non-english words in post 51
Fragmenting your sentences and incorrect use of paragraphs also warrants review: consider the second paragraph in your critical piece on this page and its' association with your first paragraph.
Perhaps you should try whatever 'Happylaze' smokes: you might lighten up.
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Is it just me, or does (42) make even less sense than usual?
Then again, I wouldn't like to be waited on by the author of that comment. Regardless of what was ordered, he'd probably serve beans on toast...
But at least he'd charge you the same, regardless of what you'd originally ordered, the time of day, or the size of your wallet...
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Cat curfew: My cat & I listened with distain to the interview concerning a cat curfew after dark designed to preserve the local bird population. There is no conceivable way that I can keep my cat in at night; I have tried this only to find that by morning he has ransacked my home and all but destroyed my soft furnishings. Instead we propose a scheme whereby any cat owner whose cat brings in a bird (they always bring them in!) must at the end of the week visit the local pet shop and buy the equivalent number of birds then releasing them into their garden. We would like to put forward a name for our scheme: Chaffinch Offsetting.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ref 5 Invisibleatheist
Having looked at your posts following your criticism of my light hearted piece, I also noticed you also wrote in #5
"Why the Ghurkas need a white lady to represent them is somewhat patronising however."
Why do you say a "white lady?" Why is it patronising? Do please expand on your thinking. I see you like sending in lots of posts, so I'm sure it's no trouble. Thanks - look forward to it.
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Ref # 6 invisibleatheist
I noticed you submitted a piece critcising me as well. I suggest you read my post #44 to Chris Ghoti.
Perhaps you should have a debate with Chris Ghoti over the use of license and licence; spelt and spelled; mis-spelt and misspelled. You both use 'learned' and 'learnt' in the same context I notice, yet ........spell them differently! Isn't it funny how the 'spelling police' get so much wrong themselves:
In your post #6 you wrote "indiginous." Did you mean "indigenous?"
In your post #30, you wrote "villified." Did you mean "vilified?"
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mitchward - I like your thinking! We keep a cat too, but it's years since he caught anything, and about 6 years since any of his prey was a bird (mice seem to be easier since they can't fly, I suppose).
It's a difficult question really, since cats will make themselves useful by catching things we want caught, like rats, mice and even rabbits, for which they get praised. Then they go and spoil it by catching cutesy-pie little birdies too, and they get told off. I mean, how are they supposed to know? Lectures? TV programmes with an educational bias? A little guide book they can refer to before killing something in the garden?
The best book on the subject is Anne Fine's novel "The Diary of a Killer Cat". Read it and laugh.
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Where I live the are no cats, what we have are swarms (inset correct collective noun) of magpies and crows but to the best of my knowledge they respect the curfew imposed on them
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Cats have been catching birds for as long as I can remember (which is over 60 years), so I'm not convinced that they are primarily responsible for the demise of our songbirds.
I think we must look for some more recent phenomena, like the loss of habitat & nesting sites and the increased usage of slug pellets.
I notice that every one of the posts criticising other people's spelling does, indeed, itself contain an error!
Incidentally, both "spelt" and "learnt" are correct traditional English spellings that are currently being replaced by the newer (and therefore better?) "-ed" versions.
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"Where's my comment?All new members are pre-moderated initially, which means that there will be a short delay between when you post your comment and when it appears while one of our moderators checks it."
Do you mean "Where's my comment? All new members are initially pre-moderated, which means that there will be a short delay, before your comment appears, while one of our moderators checks it."
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Paul Mason on Newsnight seems to think the worst in the banking sector is ahead of us.
The scenario seems to depend on the sort of thing St Vincent Cable reports in his book - people with money thinking a slump is like a purgative to the economy)
And on spillover effects from America.
How come we don't even hear of these sorts of scenarios on PM?
This is not about panics, but about people doing what they see as right. On the one hand people deliberately threatening democratic hegemony with their money and their aggressive use of it. (What we call market loss of confidence in governements' policies).
They believe in markets and the minimal state. (And have strong support in the Republican and Tory Parites and among like minded officials in both countries)
On the other hand governments unwilling or unable to counter their strategies. Because they cannot persuade their electorate of Micawbers to take such threats seriously enough to allow them to make the deep reforms necessary.
And then again, both governments and the private sector can get things wrong 'cos they know no better.
(Interest rates set wrong for example, and consumers taking spend-save decisions which in aggregate aggravate.)
Then the 'deep shade of blue' in every direction is not the sky fallen in but us being completely at sea. Up to our necks in oxygen dihydride, salt in our wounds,
Us drowning not waving.
On PM we get palliative care. The BBC should offer better.
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10 invisibleatheist
The following is based on what I've heard on Radio 4 in the last few days.
Present UK stocks of anti-viral drugs (like Tamiflu) are only sufficient to treat half the population. Vaccines are on the way, but it will be a couple of months before they become generally available. (I think that was the figure I heard - please correct me if I'm wrong please, someone.)
We cannot stop the virus spreading, but we could retard its spread by sensible hygiene.
The consensus of medical opinion is therefore to delay the spread of the virus to gain some time while waiting for the vaccine to come on line.
Incidentally, (& this is my own view), as the virus mutates, the weaker strains will spread further & faster than the lethal ones. This is because a virulent strain will tend rapidly to incapacitate and immobilise its victims whereas a weaker strain's victims may remain able to travel, facilitating the spread of the weaker strain.
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(51) Tbird: I thought it was a 'murder' of crows?
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Lady Sue, I like to think of crows as a parliament of crows, but murder of crows is also correct. My favourite collective noun for birds is an unkindness of ravens, which happens also to be the title of a Ruth Rendell book.
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Big Sis - Isn't parliament more correctly used for rooks and owls?
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And nothing beats 'a murmuration of starlings'!
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It can be used with crows, too, Horse! Yes, I've also heard it for owls - for rooks, I've heard a clamour of rooks, but not a parliament. I'm sure you're right, though, on that usage too.
They're all rather fascinating.
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A gross national product of economists.
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A phart of art critics.
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(To the moderators: I am experiencing hiccups in my internet connection so you may get duplicates of this message. If so, I should be grateful if you could post one only, please!)
Isn't there an old saw that says something like: "If you see 1 rook, it's a crow; if you see 3 crows, they're rooks."?
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A pond of froggers.
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I like that one @64 Big Sis - do put it on the beach.
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48 & 49. Richard_SM
No need to get your knickers in a twist, you seem to get upset easily if criticised. I was merely pointing out that your sneering at someone who 'smokes pot' as in '... there's this American pothead, 'Happylaze,' who's posts are generally mispelt, unrelated and quite incomprehensible...' was marred by your own spelling. Anyone can typo, it's usually down to speed and lack of typing training, but your spelt wasn't a typo, it's a comma spelling mistake, look it up, it's a species of wheat. Learned and learnt, on the other hand are both acceptable spelling and almost interchangeable; I say almost since you can have a learned judge but not a learnt judge. Isn't our language wonderfully subtle?
But calm down dear, I apologise for picking on you, it's a habit I have since I proofread professionally as one of my jobs so I can't help myself, I even read number plates, how sad is that?
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36
Cambridge University IS the wrong social class.
There used to be 12 percent from working class backgrounds.
Women's assertions dropped that to 2 percent as the middle classes squeezed out working class lads.
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TRW @ 67, about Cambridge: there used to be scholarships for the working class lads. Then the Government took over all universities' funding, and did away with the scholarships that used to fund the working class lads' studies.
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67: I hope you are not suggesting that women don't deserve to have access to university education (and that includes, btw, Oxbridge)?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Big Sister @ 69, clearly all the working class who deserve educating are "lads"; the lasses are meant to stay barefoot in the kitchen looking after the children. Church is not involved because that is the opium of the people, but apart from that detail the doctrine is clear.
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Funny, Chris, when he speaks of equality, somehow I thought he was referring to the post-Suffragette world ...
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