The PM Glass Box.
The Glass Box is where the PM team meets in at 18.00 every weeknight to discuss the content of the programme. We've been doing this sort of thing since the days when our phone system worked.
We try to be honest with each other, but not hurtful, as we talk about what worked and what didn't...what met our expectations and what fell short.
This virtual glass box is where you're encouraged to take part in the same spirit. Tonight's PM editor Eloise Twisk will read your comments and may well add her own.
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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I'm sure it'll all turn out all right in the end.
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Now that's a telephone!
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Just continuing the discussions about electoral reform, I was interested to read the solution offered by the Fabian Society.
fouhttp://www.fabians.org.uk/publications/extracts/call-for-lab-libdem-deal-on-alternative-vote
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"Politically motivated"
Re. the interview with one of the petitioners in Mrs Kirkbride's constituency where she was asked if her campaign was "politically motivated". The petitioner denied this.
Of course it's politically motivated! If the journalist meant "party politically motivated", which I assume they did, then they have to say so. This carelessness in political discourse has gone on for years and is very damaging to democracy.
I'd suggest that this expenses scandal is a hook on which the electorate is hanging its general dissatisfaction with British democracy. It is just a shame that thanks in part to the low quality of political debate and understanding amongst the Electorate, angry but motivated people often lack a language to define their frustration.
Silly and wasted interviews like this just exemplify the problem.
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JW (4)
How perceptive!
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Typical reaction from the medical profession re acupuncture..i had given up with "conventional" medicine..visited an osteopath who treated me plus acupuncture and hey presto relief from backpain at last...sciatica, but could the "normal" medical profession be bothered ?...No,.... what a typical we know it all reaction
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Like the Telephone. Notice the box is still devoid of a 'McNickle'
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Come on Eddie, the public concern over this is about so much more than just the expenses. Why ask? It is so obvious.
Why not now just cut to the chase and start discussing the real problems nearly everyone in the country has with British democracy?
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The elephant in the room (Global Warming) keeps a'growin' even though nobody has looked at her for a while.
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned the fact that Alan Johnston seems to have resurrected the Jenkins report which was in fact written before the 1997 election. It was T Blair who asked him to do it in case New Labour didn't get a big enough majority. Is that in some way more principled than D Cameron who did -to be fair- ask the group led by Ken Clarke to look at the constitution/political set up etc quite some time ago?
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Incidentally, I think Santander now own Alliance & Leicester & I've noticed no changes at all
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@4 Joseph Quite agree! Anyway, why should such a petition *not* be party politically motivated? It's perfectly legitimate for other parties to campaign against an MP they would like to replace on the basis of their behaviour in office.
As for this evening's programme: *four* professors, did you say? Such an embarassment of learning all in 50-something minutes!
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Skintnick (9)
I think most people get the crisis, but without a decent democracy, calls for real change in anything let alone policies towards climate change, just go unheard.
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Ooh! Lovely to hear the report from Rome, Eddie - Thank you!
It'll be bedlam on the Vias and Viales tonight - Wish I was there!
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Oh joy. A piece about a sports event.
Why not just whack me on the head with a big stick...?
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Because, Cat, you don't pop up out of a box - and anyway, you're on the wrong thread ;o)
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Firstly cant find picture mentioned on the radio.
However, ref the comments made by one of the 'professionals' interviewed. 'mumbo jumbo' As we are now seeing, for years we have been talked down to by professionals in Parliament. Many insinuating the general public either didn't know, or weren't bright enough to understand. We no longer need to take as 'truth' what we are told to believe by professionals. We can do our own research thanks to networking and websites. Cross examining professionals we chose to connect with. And make our own minds up. To refer to an ancient practice, which HAS been proven to benefit many people with various medical conditions as ''mumbo jumbo' clearly suggests that the speaker needs to continue his own path of research. As well as minding is manners and condescending arrogant attitude.
I am not a practitioner of acupuncture, but have been a recipient of the treatment over many years.
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skintnick (9) I don't think your comment about global warming is receiving scant response because people disagree that there is an issue. It has often been debated here on the blog, many agree it is critically important while some don't see it as a problem at all.
I think you'd find that if there was an item on PM, say about painting all our flat roofs white, then you would get a thread discussing it. Otherwise threads such as the glass boxes tend to be devoted to the news of the day.
We used to have a debating forum called 'The Furrowed Brow' where such debates could be carried out, but it has not been much used of late.
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Great program as usual - enjoyed your article on whether or not the time is right for change to our parliamentary system.
Eddie reminded listeners about the am Glass Box - I noticed that only 8 comments came in before 10am this morning but there are now 50+ comments... some including suggestions. Do these all get read, or do suggestions need to be re-posted if they came in after the 11am meeting?
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Alan Johnson et al are going to snow us under a flurry of reviews, discussions, resurrected ideas etc., and if we're not careful we'll be drowned under wave after wave of "things we could do." The result being, status quo. Hence their impending appearance at Glastonbury. So, nothin' new then.
Politicians are rightly concerned. But now we must wait for the welter of semantic obfuscation throughout the summer, and their 10 week recess. A week is a long time in politics, but 10 weeks is perhaps too long a time span for the British public to hold onto this particular debacle ? A lot of fouled water can flow under Westminster Bridge before the Autumn.
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The Upshares Downstairs theme was quite amusing on Day 1 and less so for the rest of that week.
Now many weeks - months?- have passed and it is now just boring. Kindly desist.
It is no Mornington Crescent.
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One change I'd like is. ...
fewer MPs. Do we really need 650 odd MPs to run the country? I think not.
I understand that if we think that UK MPs have their snouts in the trough this is nothing compared to European ones. I am at a loss as how to send a message to Politicians that it is not a good way to spend my money.
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Eddie, thank you so much for inviting Professor Hazel and Charles Kennedy to look at the welter of proposals generated by the revelations of "dodgy expenses". It was useful to hear rational voices pointing out the difference between what is achievable in terms of reform in the next 6-9 months and the 5 or more years' projects, such as proportional representation and the reform of the House of Lords (although for many of us these cannot come a day too soon).
I note with interest the suggestion that a referendum on the principle of voting reform may be possible alongside the next general election. Good.
I was delighted to hear a little quote off my post, re the baby and the bathwater, - a first (!!), but inspired by reading Nikki's thoughtful posts.
I was even more pleased to hear the idea of fixed term parliaments, which I support on this blog, described as "a relatively new and promising proposal". Well, get on with it then...
All in all, a brief return to sanity and common sense, all too welcome after the levels of personal viciousness here began to border on pathological. When one reads about "pitchforks of righteous anger" promised by a blogger working in a university library of all places, it's time for a little lie-down in a darkened room. Yes, thank you, I AM speaking for myself...
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Re Julie Kirkbride;
earlier in the week I watched a report on some TV news. It was about the petition to oust her. However, I though it was in very poor taste when, one of the people standing behind a trestle table in the Bromsgrove town with people signing the petition was singing, al la football terrace, goodbye Julie, good by Julie Kirkbride. Very poor...
Nevertheless, I have been trying to think of some words of support for this beleaguered soul....nothing but, nothing comes to mind...except that I used fancy her...how sad!
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bright-eyed Wendy @ 10
Roy Jenkins delivered his report 18 months after Tony Blair took over, in October 1998. When TB commissioned it, he already knew how big his majority was.
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Back after the game in Rome!...
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Albert (20)
So true! How can the public trust the media, so chronically-afflicted as it is with a serious attention deficit disorder, to stay on this throughout the Summer?
MP's Parliament and Government are trusting that as long as they can endure this to the recess, talking it out as necessary, they will be able to rely on the BBC and the other big media institutions to have moved on, treating this potentially almighty crisis and opportunity as just another old story. You can bet the Political Establishment is banking on this.
There is one possible result we could expect if this occurs. The Electorate's voice is effectively stifled in a country that is already facing severe economic problems. This could lead to far more serious consequences in the longer term - it could still turn out very fortunate for the political establishment that all that recent security legislation has been hammered into place!
Why does it have to take situations like this to show us that the only ones we can really trust are ourselves?
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Big Sister: I am not, not, not going to say... "Educators' pussycat" re. the piece on Roma.
Yours @16: LOL!
I was in Roma for some 'kicking the ball about' final/semi-final in July 1993. Italy lost and it was the gloomiest place I've ever experienced - entire population in mourning. So unlike Roma normally is but so, very, Italian.
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Cossackgirl (23)
"When one reads of pitchforks of righteous anger from a blogger working in a university library of all places"
I assume you are revering to me.
I can not recall making this statement. I also do not like the way you have linked what you thought I said to pathological viciousness.
The post I think you have twisted and inserted in your own words is when I have mentioned why I couldn't understand why we are not marching on downing street. It was you my friend who came back with something about pitchforks and anger. I replied to that post with, " "I didn't mention pitchforks" and that hopefully the anger would be righteous. So as you reflect during your little lie down in your darkened room think about retracting the false words you have tried to put in my mouth or produce proof.
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Do the BNP and UKIP have members in Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland? If not how can they justify being parties representing 'Britain' and the 'UK.'
Should they instead be called English National Party and the English Independent Party?
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Cossackgirl @23... I too found that a very interesting piece on the reforms that might take place in parliament :-)
I am wondering whether it's absolutely necessary to imply that people who you don't agree with are irrational, insane, lacking in common sense and vicious (bordering on pathological)?
I thought this was a space for people to air their ideas and feelings about some of the issues covered in PM. I am guessing that this kind of forum will attract a very wide range of ideas and views - and if I were to suggest that my own views were superior to the point of other peoples' being ridiculous then I might expect those people to view my own posts as verging on condescending.
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Cossackgirl
Further to my (29)
And what is "working in a university library of all places" supposed to imply?
If I am assuming unintended antagonism, them I apologise. I would though like an explanation.
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Re Cat (15)
Why not just whack me on the head with a big stick...?
Would that be a baseball bat . . . a golf club . . . a cricket bat . . . a snooker cue?
[sniggers]
H.
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@19Dr_Bee
Hardly ever comment on AM Glass Box, my perception is that most days it is not there by 0830, when I leave the house to the blogless work place. If it as there at 2300 the night before, I would maybe waffle on there a bit more by 0830, never mind 1100!
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@22. COBOL74
MPs don't run the country, the Government does.
MPs are meant to hold the Government to account, and to represent all the people in all the communities in the UK as they do it. For that we need *at least* 650 MPs. If they are all to continue to undertake the large amount of constituency work that the best of them do (which I think they should) we need, if anything, *more* MPs and not fewer. Of course, *each* of them would ideally be much more effective than about 50% of the current crop.
If we had 20% more MPs (as opposed to 10 or 20% fewer, like many are currently proposing), and they were all equal to the best 25% of the current parliament, then imagine: the 50-75% of Government scrutiny currently woefully missing might get done!
The question of how many MPs there should be is not really related to the question of how they should be elected, (other than to try to ensure that real communities have a voice a national level, and do not have to rely on people trying to represent an arbitrarily drawn electoral area).
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The Government starts an illegal war, allows house prices to inflate into a huge bubble, watches the financial industry crash into a brick wall and denies us a referendum on the European treaty.
Then some MPs abuse the expenses system and people finally get shirty!
I agree with JW @ 4 that the expenses business is really a lightning rod for general dissatisfaction.
Trouble is, the MPs' expenses furore has led to numerous "excluded middle" or "false dichotomy" arguments about reform.
It was refreshing to hear a more measured approach from the Prof and Charles Kennedy
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Re the AM Glass Box...we're still experimenting with it. I try to make sure it's there for 0600, as that's when Today starts and listeners may well be inspired to make suggestions on the basis of what they have or haven't heard. We dip into the box during the day but to be honest 11.00 is probably the cut off point for ideas as it's in the 1100 meeting that we have most time to "free-think" and kick around suggestions.
The stuff that works best are thoughts that really arise from the day's news. Great diatribes on anything under the sun are fine in and of themselves, but they don't often lend themselves to inspiring thoughts on top stories of the day. It's partly for that reason that the box isn't there from the night before...we want your virtual experience it to reflect how we all work on the programme. Each day brings a thrilling new news agenda!
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Thanks Eddie,
This is a good clarification of what and when it will be of use.
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Eddie
Mmmm...
Anyway this from today's news, or, is it the UK's tomorrow's news..?
Anyway, who's worried about the Seniors?
Let 'em rot!
Can't pay? Tough!
Although, hang-on... I'm getting in yea..
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705306820/States-consider-cutting-drug-help-for-seniors.html?linkTrack=rss-14
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Joe (7) : Of course you won't get any sort of nickle in the box.
That vintage phone box only ever took the big pre-decimal pennies.
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Re Eddie (37) Thank you for sharing that. My question would be "Does anyone keep an eye on the AM box after the meeting starts?" There are many comments on the blog, along the lines of "such-and-such an item is not news!", to which others reply that PM is a news magazine programme, and some "not urgent today stuff" deserves coverage. So if something is flagged in the AM box after 11am, does it still stand a chance of being useful?
For example, what about FFred's comment 10 on today's AM box. Yes, it is time-stamped 10:13am but that might not have been visible before the meeting due to pre-moderation conditions. A look at the condition in Korea, after the war of the 50's, and how it affects the present position there, could be interesting.
As for diatribes, to my mind this is the place where we can set the agenda for serious discussion. It is the replacement for the old Furrowed Brow. As the Brow seems to have died, the AM box is a useful place for serious debate. Ignore the Trolls you would normally ignore but some of the discussion is, to my mind, interesting.
All the best.
H.
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Fifi (40)
:D
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Sid
I think you'll find that Blair was never confident of how big a majority they would get and felt he had to keep the Lib Dems on side in case he had to form an alliance. Jenkins may have finished his report later but it was a sop to the LDs. It was partly the ignoring of the report's conclusions which made Roy Jenkins refer to Blair as a 'second class mind' supposedly as a put down because Blair got a 2.2.Roy Jenkins was, it seems, a shocking snob.
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Hearing-aid? Hand tremor?
Well, maybe I won't trouble him for his "Monica".
Then again...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/magazine/31clinton-t.html?_r=1&hp
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Humph the box is not monitored during the 11.00 meeting as we're in the real Glass Box away from phones and computers...it really is our best thinking time so we could do with ideas before then.
I know what you mean about the brow. Technically it never went away and was perfect for big thoughts on big things...but it tended not to get used much so the need to renew it weekly/fortnightly/monthly fell away. Will take collective advice on it though.
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Eddie (37) - might be an idea to put that under the photo on the morning thread. They are interesting points and might be useful for those who wish to contribute to the program.
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Eddie
Some of us (our/my fault) aren't always in the same time zone as the "Beeb".
So, if "we" post Prog. suggestions, out-of-hours, as I have this PM, to "Today's Glass Box", or to "Today's PM Glass Box", will those suggestions be considered for tomorrow's PM prog?
I'd like to think so.
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Several of our friends tell us that they can buy groceries 55% - 60% cheaper at "Ethnic" stores in Slough and Southall than those available at major supermarkets in nearby areas.
Well, it's certainly the case here...
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/economy/story/68937.html
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29. This is to refresh your memory, fJd:
79. At 9:46pm on 24 May 2009, funnyJoedunn wrote:
Cossackgirl,
Oh no, I was a bit afraid that I might come across as someone like TRW as you put it. Hopefully my pitchforks would be in the name of righteous anger rather than old fashioned commie anger. There, oh gawd I just offended someone else. But, seriously I do hope you are right about the cob-webs. We need a real change of mind-set do we not?
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I rest my case...
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32. fJd: you have challenged me to produce proof of your own words about pitchforks and I hope you are satisfied. This post can be found on the BBC Blog Network by anybody who clicks on your name in any of your posts.
As for your request for clarification of what is implied by "somebody working in a university library of all places" it's simple. I have a great experience of university libraries and a wide acquaintance among university librarians. I find them, truly without exception, to be a joy to know: pleasant, erudite, mild-mannered, even rather shy. This is the kind of person I visualise you to be, a pleasure to know personally.
In my own mind, I would not expect calls for marches and pitchforks, even of "a righteous kind", to issue from the hallowed book-lined halls which have been the epitome of civilisation from the dawn of time. I could be wrong.
I am not at all the only person to whom in recent days you have shown yourself to be quick to take offence and say spiky things in anger. You speak from the heart, I value that, I hope we shall be able to discuss things in mutual peace and respect again some time.
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Cossackgirl @ 49, I think that may not be quite fair. Pitchforks having been mentioned, I'd be inclined to read it as intending "Hopefully *my* pitchforks would be in the name of righteous anger rather than of old fashioned commie anger."
IE, "if I had any pitchforks I hope they'd be those of righteous anger rather than the ones mentioned, those of commie anger."
In the context of that particular exchange that was how I read them, anyhow. I remember this because I was allying them mentally with "my sword of burning gold, my arrows of desire, my chariot of fire" and thinking that Blake had missed a trick there.
I rather like "the pitchforks of righteous anger", actually. ;-)
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31.Dr_Bee: you have recently made a comment in similar vein to Lady Sue on another threat.
She is more than capable of speaking for herself. Speaking for myself, yes, I do find your post verging on condescending.
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53. re mine at 52. Oops, it's "thread", of course. A Freudian slip...
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Humph (33) Cat (15):
Hit me with your rhythm stick - Hit me! Hit me!
It's nice to be a lunatic - Hit me! Hit me!
:D
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Sorry Cossackgirl but you pushed my buttons by claiming a moral highground. I love hearing other peoples ideas - yours included - but I don't respond to people who talk about their views and frame them in the context of 'the voice of reason' etc - that is a value judgement. And I don't see what is condescending about that view. I responded to your other post on the am glass box - I suspect some of this is to do with that - and I wish I had never got involved.
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Speaking as the voice of Sweet Reason (she was a princess in *The Phantom Tollbooth*, or else she and her sister were Pure Reason and Sweet Rhyme, and I don't have the book with me here to check) I should like to say
*wibble*
*wibble*
*wibble*
*wibble*
I have dentistry at a hospital in the morning and I would very much like not to have to worry overnight about a whole lot of people I like all being at odds because they are agreeing furiously.
please please please can't we all raise a glass to the toast "absent enemies!" and not have an argle-bargle? I am having a not-row with fJd that I didn't in the least mean to have as it is, and I can't cope...
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Calm down, Chris, it's only a radio blog! ;oD
Hope all goes well for you tomorrow.
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Oh, and PS, Chris, we'll all be here for you tomorrow. Sleep well.
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Big Sister, thank you.
*pitiful snivel*
thus dentists do make cowards of us all
*goes away to nick younger daughter's discarded teddy bear for comfort*
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Cossackgirl (50)
1) Yes, you are right that is my post with the word pitchforks in it, and which Chris Ghoti has very kindly and amply put into context. Nevertheless as you can see, I am responding to an earlier post by yourself addressed at me in which YOU-NOT-ME brought up the word pitchforks. This you used in the context of marching on downing street with.
2) "I find them truly, without exception to be a joy to know: pleasant, erudite mild mannered, even rather shy. This is the kind of person I visualise you to be, a pleasure to know personally".
Nice way of showing it!
3) I was going to quote the rest of your post but, the more I read, the more of a, paternalistic, patronising, stereotyping, bunch of drivel it became. I had an anxiety attack over your earlier post. Let me know what stereotypical manner you might like me to express myself with seeing as I work in the;
"hallowed book lined halls that have been the epitome of civilisation since the dawn of time" Where you "would not expect calls for marches and pitchforks"I'll see what I can do. Oh but, you've already inferred what kind of personality I ought to be haven't you?
4) "You speak from the heart, I value that, I hope we can discuss things in mutual peace and respect sometime again"
How dare you!
HOW DARE YOU TRY TO IMPLY WHAT KIND OF PERSONALITY I OUGHT TO BE. HOW DARE YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW HOW I SHOULD EXPRESS MY OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCE BECAUSE OF YOUR STERIOTYPICAL BLINDNESS ABOUT THE WORK DO.
I think you might be truly unaware of how obnoxious and offence you have been to me as an individual in your description of my workplace and the personality you believe I ought to be. I have never had anything so patronisingly offence said to me! I think you despise me for the very traits you said you would value about me.
As regards your attack on behalf of another blogger, I refuse to respond other than to say, you sound suspiciously like her!
I now will sleep on the decision of whether I want to continue with this blog thing. This was the first time I tried anything like this. The last thing I expected was to feel bullied and held in contempt for expressing deeply held legitimate views, and to have them twisted and given meaning that was never implied when written. There is something bullyingly incestuous about what I'm feeling right now and I don't know if I want this experience anymore.
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Cossackgirl@50: your comment regarding my observation that a fellow blogger is "quick to take offence and say spiky things in anger"...
See 60.
I rest my case.
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There you go folks, tweeddle dumb turns up. She takes advantage of the bullying by inflaming the situation further not by answering my post but denigrating my personal response to what I perceive to be unprovoked bullying.
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59 + 61
Veiled subtle and open personal attacks on what you believe to be my character/personality then, denigrate me personally by twisting the meaning and context of my posts to conform to your misguided character recking, I see as a form of bullying. The fact that I find both of you either side of of my latest post denigrating my character, I take as a you having grudges to grind through personal attacks.
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Kennedy and the Prof:
Eddie's intro: Is reform a diversion from having a General Election and kicking this shower out?
Mmm. Missed the bit about kicking this lot out in the interviews.
Precious little of Eddie proving polticians never answer questions either.
You like media-politics interaction stories. Last week QT was moved from 10,30 -ish to 9 oclock.
The reason? The general air of political crisis.
This week with over 51 percent of the country wanting a General Election Now, it gets moved back.
It's BBC-official, the crisis is over? No, it still is only barely started.
The claim is that the week before last's QT (with Margaret Beckett) was watched by a vast audience. So they moved it to a prime spot, telling only the super-observant. Now they've moved it back - cos it wasn't watched by many last week??
The pound is going up 'cos money is flooding into England to take advantage of the BoE stock market bubble, isn't it Neil?
If the BoE isn't reminding the banks of how much they have sloshing around (125 billion in total - so far) the money sits in London waiting for the next bank spending splurge (with our money). Then it jumps on the gravy train, letting our money increase this adventure capital wealth.
Anyway, the US consumer confidence boost of yesterday, described as a disconnect 'twixt what they do and what they say, is the day before yesterday's news. Yesterday, the Dow was down 173 of the points it was up the day before. (9/10 of the gain, gone!).
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Joe (60): Please don't leave the Blog.
I don't want to comment on the disagreements between you and others, but I do want to say this: If you feel you are being bullied and patronised, then, no matter how those who have made you feel this why interpret their actions, it is the reality for you. Specifically, any behaviour from others which undermines another person's self confidence is officially recognised as a form of bullying.
I think it would be very sad if you left the Blog. You are clearly very angry - and that saddens and upsets me, for one.
This Blog should be a broad church, as the saying goes. I hope it isn't ever going to become anything else.
Can we all, please, try to be a little kinder to each other?
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Oops, that should have read:
"who have made you feel this WAY"
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Big Sis (66) I'd second that - fjd, please don't go. Your opinions are valued here.
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Chris - hope the dentistry wasn't as bad as you feared. They can do great things with anaesthetics these days. I always make sure they know I am a weak snivelling coward before starting - asking for as much of the painkilling stuff as available. Let us know how you got on.
I even found out, last time I was in hospital for an op, that it was possible to have "magic cream" rubbed into the back of your hand before they insert a canula, so you don't feel any pain then. How great is that? The nurse sneered a bit "This is what we do for CHILDREN" but it's my hand. Patient choice, surely, is all about such things!
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For what it is worth, I think fJd's attack on the chasm between life on the estates and the life and backgrounds of so very many of our MPs, is the best thing I have ever read on this blog. By a street and a half.
It's clear, it's witty, it has cobra-like accuracy and legitimate venom.
More, please, fJd.
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fjd @60 - I have to say that I am in a similar position to you today... and really trying to decide whether this is something I want to continue being a part of. If I do it will be to make suggestions or comments on the programs I think without getting drawn into discussions.
Big_Sister @65 Thanks for making your comments to fjd this morning - they do make a difference to how I feel at the very least.
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Dr. Bee and Joe: I've been blogging here since Eddie set this up (August 2006). I won't say that I've never been upset (I have - I've been subjected to unwarranted and unprovoked personal attacks from specific bloggers on more than one occasion) or that I've never thought of leaving, but for the most part I find the Blog has added greatly to my currently somewhat reduced life by providing me with a place where I can debate issues and 'have a larf' with a bunch of folk who, for the most part, are very kind and supportive. I've also rubbed shoulders with people with a very wide range of backgrounds and opinions - and I really enjoy this.
We can't always roam the world as freely as we'd like in real life, but this place does give us all the chance to share ideas and opinions. I hope this will never change.
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Big Sis: knowing how reasoned your opinion always is and how eloquently you present a balanced argument, I'm sure you will forgive me for defending myself, having yourself "been subjected to unwarranted and unprovoked personal attacks from specific bloggers on more than one occasion".
I'm afraid Cossackgirl and I seem to be on the receiving end of same at the moment, despite trying to present what we consider to be reasoned arguments on a variety of topics. (I hope she doesn't mind my speaking on her behalf in this instance). There seems to be a particular blindness in some bloggers preventing them from seeing a different opinion without feeling it, or trying to make it, a personal attack.
On reading Cossackgirl's post @50 I found it to be conciliatory and believe it was written with a genuine attempt to extend the hand of friendship. It certainly, in my opinion, did not deserve the rant it received in response.
I didn't refer fJd's posts at 62 and 63 and can only assume he, again, turned his attention and attack toward me after mine at 61 and was modded accordingly.
On this morning's AM GB my first post was suggesting a piece on the Commissioner of Police who is likely to be defending himself against contempt. A completely innocent post with no slander or foreign language and yet, I can only presume from spite, it was referred to the mods. It seems rather more than a co-incidence that the self-same blogger who feels he is under attack, has posted the second suggestion - which isn't a suggestion at all merely a rail against what I consider to be an imagined, vastly exaggerated, slight.
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Lady Sue, of course you're entitled to defend yourself!
I have absolutely no idea who referred any of the posts either, and we certainly shouldn't jump to any conclusions.
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Big Sis: it's the 'Miss Marple' in me!
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Lady Sue: You'll know that I would never defend the indefensible, and I appreciate fully that you have also felt under attack. Somehow, though, I feel there has been some misunderstanding on all sides and I hate to see it escalate in this way. Joe is clearly very upset.
As to the referrals to moderators, it's quite possible that it is being done by a completely different person, for whatever reason. I don't recall Joe having a track record for acting this way.
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Lady Sue (74): You mean this is you?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/195895.stm
:oD
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Oh, people, people, what is this? I drop by and wander into the middle of a brawl!
Anyone who has ever fallen out with someone by email will recognise what's happened here ... something small gets picked over, repeated, rephrased, analysed ... and before you know it there's skin and hair flying.
If, as I've just done, you go back to the start of this exchange, you will see that all parties were genuinely trying to understand each other's apparent differences.
Go back even further, to any other thread you care to choose, and you'll remember how we occasionally disagree but, with certain ignoble exceptions (none of whom are present on this thread, I think), manage to live with that.
All of you concerned in yesterday's debacle (ooh, will THAT pass the mods??) are incredibly valuable to this blog. (That includes you, Dr Bee, so don't think you wouldn't be missed too!)
You all have distinct points of view, you all express them clearly and with wit and understanding. It's the very differences between you/us all that make debates here so much more interesting than the bland 'piles of steaming PR twaddle' you often get on the TV six, or ten, or even Newsnight.
Is there any chance we could all draw a veil over yesterday, and have another go at being what we truly are...
Bloomin' brilliant?
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PS to my 76 - Sue, I didn't see the headline with that link before I posted it. I'm not implying you've died!
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Big Sis/Lady Sue/Dr Bee
I think it worth pointing out that these are just pixels on a screen. Not to diminish peoples feelings, but I find it easier to compartmentalise and dismiss when I regard offensive messages as simply pixels on a screen.
I have been posting on the Christian Topic Message Board for some years now, and the discussions can get a little tasty, despite my attempts at silliness. Sometimes the Moderators will hide posts on their own volition, so not all Moderated posts are complained about by other posters.
Although, of course, some are.
I hope nobody leaves or feels restricted by these posts. I have only just found this place and enjoy the banter.
C'mon now, gather round.
*group hug*
There, that's better :-)
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79:
"the discussions can get a little tasty"
Mmm -- Yum!
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Big Sis@76: the resemblance (except for being dead) is uncanny!
Big Sis/T8-eh-T8/Fifi
I'm very happy to "draw a veil"...
M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*M*
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
[... but I'll be keeping my powder dry].
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CREDIT CARD SCAM
While I agree with most that the antics of our politicians are deserving of suitable approbation: we are in danger of losing sight of the antics of the financial industry as a whole. We my wife and I have recently been subjected to various antics by Mastercard services.
1 Hotel Marriott group London: Paid for our room by cash in full £170.00. Pre authorised £50 for various bar services. Total deducted from card £223.00! Time to be repaid after various strong e-mails and calls 20 days!!!!
2 Shell attempted to pay for fuel by card £35.86 declined on first attempt; third attempt required a authorisation call total amount deducted £71.92. Call made to our bank to be informed that this was a common problem.....still awaiting reayment
I wonder as to wether we are just unfortunate or if this is symptomatic of this incompetence of the credit card industry and the financial system as a whole that would explain why the world is in a mess facing financial meltdown!!!
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oh dear....
fJd, please don't go. If everyone who disagrees with anyone else goes, what do we have left? Bland agreement and nobody to talk with, no views but our own, boredom beyond belief...
I too have been attacked on a personal basis; called an idiot; told that I had no right to hold an opinion on a particular subject on the grounds of what sex I am (which the person who posted about it didn't know, and as it happened was wrong about!)
Not on this list but in another place, I have suffered from a sleepless night when I tried to work out what to reply to a truly unpleasant attack on every facet of my personality that the attacker had assumed (and we ended up quite friendly with each other later on, when he realised that I wasn't the person he had assumed me to be).
Please don't go.
We have disagreed, you and I, but I hope you don't feel that i am trying to get at you as a person, any more than I think that you are trying to demolish me. I may not agree with certain of your views (I would be quite scared if I thought we agreed about *everything*!) and you may disagree with some of mine, but that shouldn't mean we can't meet, and snipe, and shrug, and say "you're daft!" to each other without rancour. You are certainly not someone I wish would go somewhere else and bore on interminably there and leave us in peace. I'd rather you were here.
The dentistry was a nothing, in the end: deferred, after I had waited for an hour, till Monday afternoon. I *hate* bracing myself for something and then having to keep braced for four more days! OK, it is only an extraction, but it's a molar that has been coming to pieces for some years, and it is likely to fall apart even worse when they try to take it out, and I am seriously scared in case they miss a bit of nerve or something and it all has to be done again. The trouble with anasthaesia is that I can't know until afterwards when I get the feeling back whether it has all gone ok or not.
watch me be *fragile* for a bit, and giggle if you must. I can take it. I'm a grown-up.
I WANT MY TEDDY!
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Thanks for your follow up Big Sister @71. You are so perceptive and remarkably empathetic that your post brought on a wee *wibble* here too ;-)
Also Fifi @77 for kind words, T8-eh-T8 @79 for the *hugg* and Lady_Sue @81. I have learnt a thing or two about how to comment on the blog and there are some things that I will just let go in future.
Chris @56 you are soo adorable with the way you use your words! I hope your dentistry went well this morning.
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Big sis, Dr Bee, Anne P, etc....
Thank you so much for your kind comments. it does make me feel better. and appreciated, at least by those I feel I appreciate too-thank you. Like you Dr Bee, I too am thinking about what form any future contribution may take.
Dr Bee, I think you and I feel undermined by the same couple of bloggers, who (at least one of them) now express that it is they/her /it who is being attacked for presenting reasoned argument. This is the first time this has been expressed by said blogger in this context. Said blogger does not recognize or feel they have done anything to apologise over so as to instill trust.
However, even now said blogger continues stealing descriptive words and concepts from my own posts, inserting my words and concepts into own posts to attack me again as if that blogger is the one who is offended. Check out the descriptive use of the word 'blindness', in said bloggers (72) Second para, then cheque my (59). Taking and twisting to make use of. Not that there is any law against this sort of thing, however, it should be noted. It is part of a strategy I feel is being used, little old miss Marple or no.
Said bloggers assertion that said blogger can only assume that I reffered said blogger's post to the mods on this mornings AM GB 'out of spite' epitomises why said blogger's assumptions are dangerous.
I didn't refere anything!
Might on going litigation mean anything?
In this instance, I might feel there is a breakdown in communication due to fundamental assumptions that should not be made about personality, and social understanding of the the people involved. Nevertheless, statements like 'I'll be keeping my powder dry' Whilst purporting to be for conciliation in the same context does worry me about future involvement.
I posted my contribution to the AM GB about bullying because I feel it is a valid issue. not out of 'spite'. Said blogger really dosen't know me!
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Joe: I'm so glad to see you here again. :o)
Sorry, though, that ManU didn't win last night.
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CG (83)
Chris, Chris, Dear Chris. Please don't fret yourself so much. Yes, we have had our disagreements. I never felt personally attacked by you and I have seen you personally attacked. I have felt misunderstood at times but, I also recognised the voice of reason always in your posts. You don't seem to me to be vindictive and and it feels like you prefer to see the positive in people. I have found you quips and personal niggles usually very wittily put, even drawing a chuckle or two. These are the things that seem to be valuable to me. I agree with what you say about blandness. I know I have been touchy with you on some subjects in the past. I have in years gone by, in another life, been the subject of bullying to the point of being made suicidal. There a confession. Please don't infer anything on yourself, it was another time. However, my antenna is constantly stuck now on open regarding this. I am v sensitive to the mere whiff bullying. I never had this whiff from you. You are one of the most receptive and knowledgible bloggers on here to my mind. No doubt we could find loads to disagree about, maybe not. Nevertheless, I believe that you believe there are more valuable things worth having than waffle waffle waffle. Speaking of which. Guilty you honour!
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Big Sis,
It was a rubbish game. The best team won for me.
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Hey Joe - yes I think you and I have felt similarly albeit for slightly different reasons. In my case I think I have probably taken too personally comments that were not meant to be as critical as I interpreted them being. I have had various experience of negotiation / conflict resolution - and the key is always to try and get both sides to see things from their antagonists perspective. Unfortunately it's never easy to actually achieve that, and sometimes can result in inflammed positions. I was overly naive (and probably clumsey :s) in thinking that I could help in a situation by posting how I felt. I remember asking a facilatator what to do in such a situation and he responded that you had likely hit an impasse and that it was best to agree to disagree and move on.
I'm feeling a bit bruised by some of what was said yesterday - and I know that you are too :s I won't partake in discussions until I feel safe - but I would very much miss your contributions if you decided that you had to follow a similar policy.
I was trying to find a website that gave clear guidelines on how to post a comment that expressed an opinion without offending others - but I didn't have much luck. In face to face negotiations it is a matter of ownership of comments - prefacing with "I believe" or "I disagree / agree" and trying not to use sentences that pre-judge the other party (terms such as "unreasonable", "silly", etc) - those are likely to lead to offense and consequent worsening of a disagreement.
So to put that into practice (!) I personally agree that your suggestion on the am blog was justified of its own accord - although from my perspective (and 'cos I'd dearly love for none of the disagreements to have happened) I'd be looking for a way of moving it on with a topic for example on how to be a perfect frogger ;-)
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Joe (88): I agree. But wish it had been otherwise (for the sake of those in my family who support ManU).
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oh and Joe - here's a big *huggggg* because your comments on your own personal experiences of bullying struck a chord.
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Big Sis,
Just keep telling them, 'it'll be different next year' Are they all subdued?
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Joe, they're very subdued. As I support 'another team', I'm inwardly delighted - but don't tell them so! ;o)
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fifi 40, Try nickel.
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Chris (83) - Benzocaine bubblegum is the way forward. Numbs pretty well and tastes great!!
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RxKaren @ 95, Thank you! I shall ring my dentist first thing in the morning and ask about that, so that I can get some for the weekend.
fJd, Thank you too!
I wouldn't want to be a bully. Almost all my friends were bullied at school (in one case to the point of broken bones, in another to the point at which to this day his has a defective sense of smell from being held forcibly over ammonia) and I so detest it you wouldn't believe, even apart from personal experience. I'd hate to be seen as being that way. My response is often a bit extreme if I see or perceive bullying, whether it is of me or of someone else, which does lay me open to the charge of being a bully myself -- oh, isn't life complicated!
But I am glad you feel able to stay, and I hope that everyone else involved here will feel the same way: I have this feeling that there is more misunderstanding and mis-speaking than malice, all over the place. I certainly haven't found anyone who's been being affronted to be someone who struck out for no reason; perhaps the reasons may be from edginess. I hope so, anyhow.
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72. Lady Sue: thank you for being strong for both of us. I am afraid I have read the comment at (60) this morning and collapsed, we had ambulance, hospital, emergency ECG, the whole catastrophy . They don't take chances with cancer patients in my stage, so the pudding was overegged somewhat. As I type I am on an ambulatory blood pressure monitor, as it's gone stratospheric earlier on.
I can see that many bloggers have said many good and wise things and it is all for the better. I am appalled by what was made of my words in post (50) and very sad at the unfairness. But I've had worse in this life and survived.
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Cossackgirl: I have been eagerly awaiting you posts and input all day (somewhere else you mentioned not being available until 6pm and I felt obliged, somehow, to offer - in your absence - defence on your behalf. Thank you for being so gracious about my clumsy attempts).
I was also saddened by the interpretation of your post @50. I am convinced your comment was meant with the best of intentions and sadly misinterpreted.
However, all of this totally swept to one side: I am much more concerned about your situation in RL and I am quite sure most of our fellow bloggers will be.
I do hope all goes well for you and, please know, my thoughts are with you. Please keep us posted. I'm sure I am not alone in offering you support and friendship during this difficult time.
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Cossackgirl, you get better! You do it right now, you hear me? I need all the support I can get until Monday and that means you too.
Seriously, I hope you improve at once and feel fine as soon as possible.
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Chris: Sorry, meant to say this earlier, but got waylaid - Sorry things were deferred for you today. We'll all be on hand to help you make it through til Monday. And here's a teddy for you
8oO=
Well, it's the best I can manage!
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