Alcohol
Hello there,
Nice to be back in the chair for a couple of days.
Despite the best efforts of some of you to appeal to Eddie's better nature and persuade him to leave his cocktail cabinet keys in an accessible place, he has failed to do so. I will have to rely on you to lift my spirits instead.
There's been a lot of talk about alcohol pricing in the last day or so, with Liam Donaldson the Chief Medical Officer calling for minimum pricing and Ministers suggesting that it would not happen in England. I was talking about this last night with my MP panellists on The Westminster Hour (10pm, Radio 4) . Tom Harris the former Transport Minister was saying that while his New Labour instincts should lead him to support the Government's dismissal of the suggestion, his concern for his constituents meant that he felt alcohol pricing HAD to be a sensible suggestion. See Tom Harris' own blog here:
What do you think? Will charging a pound for a can of lager or £4 for a bottle of wine make a difference to binge drinking and harmful consumption?
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Good morning Sequin - Nice to see you here again.
Under the circumstances, best probably not to have the temptation of the cocktail cabinet!
There is undoubtedly quite a dilemma about how to deal with the issue of alcohol and how to restrict its overuse by a minority of the population. Personally, I feel that price increases will not solve the problem - Look, for example, at the case of some of the Nordic countries which have tried this route and yet where the problem of alcoholism is greater (by percentage of the population) than it has ever been here. Inevitably, raising the cost of alcohol will have the effect of making it less available to those on restricted incomes, yet not have much effect upon others. So, my inclination goes against this route.
Though this may also sound pretty barmy, I personally feel that it would be more constructive to find some way of limiting the amounts of alcohol that people can buy in the supermarkets (a ration book, if you like). This would reduce the amount that can be bought a knockdown prices, while would not take away business from pubs and restaurants. We need such businesses to flourish, I feel, as they provide important social venues. If drinks prices are pushed up generally, this will impact adversely upon these businesses and force even more to the wall. Equally, and as a quid pro quo, the owners and managers of such businesses should have even greater responsibilities put upon them to ensure that their customers do not overconsumer while on their premises.
Could such a two pronged approach have the desired effect? I think it might, and it may even produce some unexpected benefits along the way.
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Oops, sorry about the couple of typos above. ;o)
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Can somebody else please comment on this thread or will it be Big Sister on Alcohol all day?
I don't want to end up drunk ....
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Once again, The Scots lead the way!
Slainte!
ed
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DRINK!
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Mmmmm, the party's starting to swing!
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Hi Sequin! Good to hear from you again. I hope you can acquire appropriate refreshment as needed.
Regarding the topic, I expect price increases will largely affect off-sales, and thus tend to be a wee life preserver tossed to the drowning pubs.
I doubt it will have much real efficacy against the 'binge' drinkers, as my experience is that those with a taste for juice will always find a way to fund their habit, a characteristic of addicts of all sorts. Through a sibling, I have some familiarity with AA, and one of the first things recovering alcoholics discover is how much more money they have once they stop drinking - they're rich, and usually put on weight from all the restaurant lunches (washed down with gallons of diet cola).
As noted by those not horrified by the prospect, moderate drinkers are unlikely to notice any price increases if our Southern neighbours heed the medical advice (and the good Scotch example ;-)), but they face powerful lobby interests in opposition.
Now, if the pubs were to mount a complementary campaign of price reductions, we just might save another British cultural tradition...
Slainte!
ed
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B_S 1,2,3, I was busy moving my apple wine around. It doesn't seem to want to completely ferment. I prefer it to be dry and about 15 percent alcohol. That should be small unit for 50p.
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David, have you thought of apple champagne? or cider?
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Ed (7): The pubs are really struggling, you know, and their fate rests largely outside of their own control (excepting, of course, the many pubs which are mismanaged). This is an area about which I know quite a bit, as my SO has worked in the industry for decades, on the brewing side. Since breweries largely sold off their estates to pub companies and the like, landlords have had an uphill struggle against high rents and the inflated prices on the beer lists through which the pub companies often force them to purchase their supplies. Pubs have become a milk cow for pub companies and other profiteers, leaving landlords and managers to somehow struggle to keep their businesses profitable. To add to this, there have been the increases in duty which have made Mr. Darling and his predecessors so unpopular.
Since the smoking ban, pubs have become much more pleasant places to visit (for non smokers) and provide a congenial venue. However, unless the issue of the pub companies is tackled, landlords will continue to struggle to keep their businesses afloat.
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Given that (at a rough guesstimate) we'd be looking at about £20 for a bottle of scotch under the new legislation, I think we know what most people will do to stock up their drinks cabinets....
....and we can be fairly certain what the Government will do to discourage us from the activity!
Dungeekin
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dungeekin: It isn't legislation - yet! and support is pretty limited.
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@Big Sister:
My experience of the last eleven years has generated a certain. . . cynicism.
There's not much support for £0.50 per Unit.
(Example - there was little support for 90-days detention).
The legislation will therefore be introduced at £0.25/Unit.
(Example - 42 days).
Cue much rejoicing, and an increase to 50p/unit in the next Budget.
Dungeekin
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UK 4 for a bottle of wine? Good heavens! That is incredibly cheap! In our local supermarkets in Ireland a bottle of "drinkable" wine doesn't retail for under Euro 7-8, most of the drinkable stuff is for sale at Euro 12 +. This is just for wine, spirits are also considerably more expensive.
What this has done is to create an exodus of people in the Republic crossing the border to buy cheaper wine in the north. For "cheaper wine" read Euro 6.50 which is about Sterling 6.
These pricings have not made any difference to the amount of alcohol consumed.
Big Sis: I wouldn't be too keen on the idea of a "ration book" approach for the simple reason that, as Ed points out @ 7, those who want to drink will find the funding and the wherewithal, so I don't think it would work.
What about an advertising/awareness campaign by the government to show the effects of alcohol abuse, not only on the body but on the lifestyle of someone who suffers from alcoholism? Without wishing to make it sound comical, something along the lines of "Here's X, used to be a high-flyer, had a nice house, nice car, nice life and is now living rough and drinking meths".
Lots of gory pictures of organs that have been removed from alcoholics might work too.
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Lady Sue, I quite agree that education is probably a better route all round. My suggestion about rationing is merely as an alternative to hiking prices as it would be fairer - equal footing for all, regardless of income. I don't greatly like the idea, but prefer it to the alternative of general price rises, which is inevitably unfair to the less well off.
Incidentally, it could provide a way for the less well off to raise a bit of income - by selling their drink allowance to the well off, at a nice margin of profit. I am, I think, joking.
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AAA LOSES AAA RATING Aye, but What about AA?
;-)HILLARY VISITS EMERALD CITY
Meets with Oz, the Great and Terrible.
WORLD NEWS
G-20 Finance Officials Agree To Revive Economy
Will meet more often, drink better cognac, smoke more expensive cigars.
China's Premier “Worried” About U.S. Debt
Mulls dispatching 300 million debt collectors.
ed
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I was amused by the Wine and Spirits man on 2day this morning, talking about growing govt. legislation. As I see it, ever longer opening hours amounts to less govt. legislation. Shut them all at 1030 pm, I say. I'd prefer to get the noisy people watering driveways over early.
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Big Sis: I suspect your conclusion about what might happen with ration books is spot on. I know that youngsters regularly lurk outside 'Offies' and approach older folk to buy their alcohol for them. "Where there's a will... "
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Big Sister? . . ? . . AAArrgghhh! NUNS! NUNS!
DRINK! DRINK!
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It seems to me that the simplest solution is available: don't give supermarkets licences to sell alcohol, full stop. They used not to, and the population survived quite well without cheap alcohol available all hours of the day and night. If alcohol is regarded as something only to be obtained from off-licences between set hours, and in pubs and clubs outside those hours, impulse-drinking (as opposed to bonge-drinking) would be very much reduced, and the idea that alcohol is in some way an essential right for everybody all the time might start to subside a little.
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Chris: good idea.
What is 'bonge-drinking'?
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Lady Sue, might it be the tipple which continuity announcers take just before Big Ben chimes?
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Lady Sue + Big Sis - I think this is 'bonge-drinking'.
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Could be, Horse - though brown paper bags would be the order of the day.
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I listened to the gentleman on Today as well, Vyle. I'm not sure where he gets his wine from, but most supermarkets will sell wine in the region of £4 already for the cheaper "plonk" with other "classier" wines up around the £6 to £9 mark. The only time that wine's generally sold at less is the wine box, which can be as low as around £12 for the equivalent of 4 bottles (or £3 a bottle). Does it really hit people hard if they're charged a little extra on a non-essential foodstuff? When you see beer, cider, and lager all being sold at ridiculously low values, it's no wonder that more and more people are drinking more and more booze. I think you might be onto something, Chris (20). Get alcohol back out of supermarkets to off-licences.
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Hello Carolyn.
Those MoP panellists - I am never convinced that any of them say what they actually think. What on earth are New Labour instincts if not another way of waiting to be told what they think by someone perhaps higher up in the Labour Party and /or Government - allegedly?
I want to know what you think MoP.
My thoughts were - great let us sit down and talk about clever ways to make grog more expensive for those that use it regularly to misbehave. Leaving the adult drinker fairly untouched. Me - in other words.
Difficult but it could be discussed. My Old School instincts tell me it can. Cheers! lol
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Fred (25) I agree with you about the price of a bottle of wine, though there are generally the odd bottle or two to be had for less (e.g. Sainsburys does something at less than three pounds). However, if a minimum price is set per bottle, what I suspect will happen is that the more drinkable bottles, priced generally at around four pounds plus per bottle, will be priced even higher, since retailers have a nasty little habit of using any excuse to make a bit more profit out of the punter.
As to restricting wine and beer sales to off licences .... I have mixed feelings about this. An aunt of mine used to have an off licence, and it could be a very dangerous place, particularly after a certain time of the night. It's not a business for the faint-hearted, while the supermarkets are in a position to employ 'security' (and, as there are more staff around, there is much less likelihood of threats involving knives and guns).
Thinking of supermarket loss - leader offers, happy hours, and the like, makes me think that these are the sector that the government could usefully target. Their aim is pretty clear, and it should therefore be fairly simple to ban such promotions.
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Isn't it interesting how alcohol is usually portrayed in a jokey, light hearted, whoops-there-goes-my-reasoning-faculty kind of way? But tobacco is invariably depicted as an evil, toxic substance that should be hounded out of existence. I think the opprobrium should be switched from the latter substance to the former.
Brewers and distillers have been peddling their profitable mind-rot with impunity for too long. I'm waiting for the day when a group of alcoholics sues the brewers and distillers for ruining their lives.
Yes - the price of alcohol should be cranked up much higher than it is.
Let's see what happens and review the position in, say, two years.
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invincibleoldandwise: I doubt anyone here underestimates the harm that excessive drinking can cause. The difference between drinking and smoking, however, is that the latter is harmful even in moderation.
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Sequin, Welcome! From a PM perspective, long-time no hear from. Don't be a stranger!
C-G 20
Couldn't agree with you more.
Big Sis 29
Couldn't agree with you more either.
Taking a look at how the Govt's handled tobacco product sales will perhaps give a clue to how they'll handle the alcohol situation.
Not, particularly well or effectively is my guess...
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The recommended weekly alcohol limit for men is 21 units and for women 14 units. We should therefore introduce an additional tier to the proposed minimum price whereby women pay at least 75p per unit, which will at one legislative stroke reverse the tradition of "free drinks for women" at some of our local night spots...
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Now here's a thought:- we have an obesity problem how about a tax on calories?
Five pounds for a cream cake, but would we get a discount on celery?
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Why doesn't someone do some real, unbridled, no-vested-interest research into why Britain has the worst alcohol problem in western Europe? Why is a bottle of wine in France just an average price of one pound twenty and they do not have the binge class we have. The same goes for Spain where you can stroll out in most places of an evening with your Grandparents if you like and be safe.
I suspect the British government doesnt want to really know the answer. Putting up the price of Alcohol in the way it is proposed is nothing more than just a gimmick. Alcohol is often used as an historical escape from the same old drudgery of life under a repressive low wage class based regime. It has connotations of Russia and the disparity of wealth and opportunity and the lack of freedom to fulfill ones potential. Scratch the surface, the problem isn't the price.
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B_S 9, The wine will be fizzy if I catch it soon enough. It takes to many apples to make cider and I don't get the right kind. I usually crush 130 or more pounds to make 60-80 liters.
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dg 11, It just means that we will stock up on wine and Calvados when we are on holiday in France or on our Christmas shop in Calais.
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DMcN,
A kilo a liter, eh?
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Tax again. Why does this government think that everything can be solved with tax, a fine, and so on? Are they lazy? Or is this an admission that they are incapable of influencing our society in any other way?
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Alcohol isn't the real problem - it is the way of escape from the real problem.
Find out what the real problem is then you might be able to embark on a cure.
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fJd 33, My grandparents are dead.
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Raise the drinking age to 21 and make smoking illegal. Wait, that would cut down on tax intake. Won't see that happening.
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How much is booze in the HOP bar?
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DCM (39)
My condolences.
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fJd 42, So are my parents.
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Surely this is the equivalent of mass medication - one size fits all. Why should the perfectly sensible majority of drinkers pay more for their alcohol just because of a minority who over indulge? This country is suffering from a very deep rot and trying to control everything we eat, drink, smoke and thoroughly enjoy is only going to make things worse - more and more we need some distractions from the awfulness of it all. We seem have the worst of everything - single and school-age mothers, benefit claimants, illegal immigrants, jobless, homeless, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc, etc, mostly made far worse by this totally incompetent government. Why doesn't this shower try to do something about illegal drugs which surely cause just as much if not more ill health and death than alcohol. The latest "it's for your own benefit" control freakery only adds to the general feeling that the only thing that is actually "for our own benefit" is to flee the country ASAP or preferably get back to a goverenment that looks after the country and minds its own business in the matters of what we do, eat and drink.
I expect their own drinking den in the Houses of Parliament will be exempt from price rises just as it is exempt from the smoking ban!! Talk about one rule for them and one for the rest of us poor saps.
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I read about a place in France (?Paris) that charges 20 euros entrance fee and you can drink all you want. Not every night, I believe.
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BS 10, The pubs we go to are nearly empty most of the time. (NO COMMENTS, PLEASE!)
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ioaw 28, Is opprobrium a form of cannabis?
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EI 36, Is that like a yard of ale?
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Jazzyjoan (44) "benefit claimants" eh? Sorry I'm making the country worse for you. I thought all that tax and National Insurance I've paid over the years entitled me to help when I needed it. Can you believe they even let us have internet access here in the workhouse?
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fjd 38
I agreee. BUT, that would be too simple...
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Charlie (50)
Indeed! Simple, but the courageous thing to do.
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According to the Stephen Fry ad I saw recently, 1 in 4 of the (UK? British? English? I can't remember what it said) has a mental health problem (illness, again, I can't remember).
Chances are that a significant number of people with such a condition will 'self-medicate', given the low levels of help available which were recently discussed on this blog.
Tackle the cause, and maybe the symptom (drinking or smoking too much, or using illegal drugs) will lessen.
Unfortunately I can't suggest how to do this. It just seems common sense to me.
I don't know about bingeing on alcopops and similar drinks. They sound vile-tasting. But maybe there's a similar malaise that drives kids to binge? Or is it peer pressure? Glad I'm too old to be tempted.
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Frances O @ 52, I think from what I have seen of bringing up three children now in their twenties, and observing the boozing behaviour of three years'worth of university students from 2000, it isn't so much peer pressure to drink too much as peer amusement about and acceptance of being stinkin' drunk that is the problem for binge (or bonge? *grin*) drinkers in their teens and early twenties. Comparing the reactions I met at about the same age with the ones I saw for them, the bar for drunken behaviour being perfectly acceptable or more funny than stupid is set far higher. Back in the late sixties, if someone got ratarsed and behaved stupidly, on the whole the following day he would be mercilessly mocked for it. If he made a habit of it, people would find it a pest to deal with, and refuse to go to a pub with him after three or so occasions. More recently it would be a good joke the following day.
Also, when too much was being taken both the people with the drinker and the barman used to feel that it was acceptable to say "You've had enough, you're starting to make a BF of yourself", which they now don't seem to feel able to do. Maybe the words "I think I've had enough" have simply gone out of fashion, for drink, for food, for justabout anything?
Having a drink or three used to be acceptable; now it seems that getting drunk is acceptable, and the two things are as we all know not at all the same thing. There now seems to be no particular point between "sober" and "slewed": "half-cut" is not a place to stop at.
I don't think it is escaping from the woes of the cruel world that does it, because the people I was observing didn't seem on the whole to be particularly woeful when they weren't bosky beyond belief.
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C_G 53, I drink 1-3 units/day, mostly wine and mostly at home. At the pub, I have 2 pints of beer, and then only once a week or so with a meal. You?
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According to Stephen Fry. According to Stephen Fry. According to Stephen Fry. If he wasn't a famous luvvie, would we hear his 'accordings' about his bipolarityism all the time? Been to Belgium lately? Didn't like his remarks about Ohio either...
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David McN: I'm not a Fry supporter, but I can recognise that he is qualified to comment on this as somebody who has admitted to mental health problems. I'm not sure what are your qualifications for apparently rubbishing that? He's also pretty well educated - as, I believe, are you. Like you, he has his opinions, unlike you those opinions become more widely known. The same applies to my opinions. I have no problem with this.
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dd 49, My wife (British) makes up for it. She gets a US pension only because she is married to an American. And, she has only visited the US for one week.
Get back to picking oakum!
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JJ (44) "...get back to a government that looks after the country..."
Are you realy old enough to remember when, if ever, that occurred?
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BS 56, I'd rather hear about how Fry broke his arm in the US. I listen to QI all the time. OK, usually when Emma Thompson is there.
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BS 56, My whole family is nuts. That's why I moved to GB.
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David (60): Would that be pecan or macadamia?
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BS 61, If you call buckeyes nuts, then buckeyes. Conkers to you.
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And cob nuts to you, David! - of which we have an abundance here.
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Just thought, they may in fact be filberts. Not to be confused with an American cartoon of a similar name.
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Dave,
Are you visually impaired? Does she sound attractive?Complain about this comment
22 and 23: very good. Horse, where DO you find them?
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Did someone mention Emma Thompson?
I'm still in love with Suzi Kettles!
sad old git
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BS 61, Macadamia nuts are named after John Macadam. He also invented a road paving material made from crushed macadamia nuts, but it proved to be too costly and switched to something tar-based. See wickedpedia if you don't believe me.
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BS 63, The buckeye tree is the state tree of Ohio and the OSU football team is called the Buckeyes.
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EI 65, Em is attractive.
Sg 67, Yes, I mentioned Emma. Ed has no taste.
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"According to the Stephen Fry ad" was what I actually said, DMcN, if you care to check.
I would suggest that it is precisely because he is well-known that his name and face were used on an advert to draw attention to the number of people with mental health problems in (let's say, for the moment) Britain.
After all, an ad showing a miserable-looking person with the caption
'One in four people in Britain has a mental health problem. Like me."
Jim Sploggs, depressive
wouldn't catch the eye, would it?
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Or not in the same way.
And the point of the ad was that more than one in four has a problem with people with mental health problems.
Hmm.
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FO 71, Like those horrible stroke ads, you mean?
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FO 71, Is Stephen Fry related to the chocolate Frys?
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Yes, David McN, he is, and thereby indirectly also to the great prison reformer Elizabeth Fry. The whole Fry family were Quaker.
Interesting that there seem to have been a number of Quakers who became 'food entrepreneurs' alongside others who became prominent social reformers.
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Extraordinary. Very nearly 30% of the posts on this thread are from one person.
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BS 75, I attended a Quaker church in the US for quite a few years. OK, evangelical Quaker, and mostly to qualify to play for the softball team.
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David McN: I was educated at a school founded by a famous Quaker family. I believe some of my ancestors were also Quakers. I feel very drawn to The Society of Friends and have often considered becoming a member of that church.
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BS 78, The one I went to, being evangelical, is quite different from the Quaker churches most people know. Preacher, organ, etc. My wife jokingly said we swung from the chandeliers quietly. They are known as the Ohio Yearly Meeting of Friends (now Evangelical Friends, Eastern Region [not that you will look]).
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