"Our little Paki friend"
In the programme tonight, we'll talk about whether the term Paki is offensive.
There's BBC News coverage of Prince Harry here , and one of our guests tonight, Murad Ahmed is of the view that the word IS offensive, and writes about it in The Times.
Is the term offensive?
Listen to PM
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(Transposed from the Furrowed Brow)
Isn't it reassuring that our army chiefs have their priorities well organized?
Several recruits are bullied to death at a training barracks - shoulder shrugs and lack of co-operation with the curtailed police investigation.
A toff officer trainee uses a now disparaged but still very common racial nickname* - immediate inquiry and promises of disciplinary action.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd also referred to "Taffy", Jock" or "Mick" friends...
* I've given up trying to get elderly relatives to stop calling the local corner shops by that same name.
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What matters here is not the word but the context: as the article notes, someone who is part of the 'family' (another negro) can use the n-word legitimately, whereas I, not a negro, am not using it here because it would probably get moderated off the blog.
As I understand it, Prince Harry's mistake in this case was to use the nickname for another member of his 'family' that was generally used, and was not as far as one can tell objected to by the person who held it -- like calling a person 'Chalky' because his surname is 'White', which might profoundly offend an albino but might equally be perfectly acceptable to an albino who siblings called him that.
(I have a nickname that is acceptable from family, but not acceptable if used by someone I don't know. But then, many people might object to a stranger using their forename without being invited to do so.)
Then NotW got hold of it three years after the event and made a 'story' of it, thus no doubt making the chap whose nickname it was feel extremely embarrassed and giving his uncle (who presumably has nothing to do with it whatever, since he wasn't a member of the 'family' who did use it) an excuse to sound off a bit.
So there's one rule for the proles and another for the nobs: the proles could call him what they (and he) liked, but the nobs were supposed to address him at all times by his surname?
Having a go at Harry is a media game, just the same as having a go at married royals' marriages was, or before that having a go at Princess Anne or Princess Margaret.
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So there's nothing of much import happening in the world at present. Isn't nearly everything in the NOTW offensive?
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Oh for goodness sake leave Harry alone. This happened 3 years ago and no-one has bothered before. He does a good job in the army and would do more if was allowed to. If the "family member" concerned wasn't bothered about his nick name then why should we be. I wonder what nickname Harry has? Carrot top/ginger/rusty? All of which I believe are offensive to red heads. Does it matter? Not in this context - no. I think it is more important to find out who got hold of this private video and then made a lot of money out of it. Now that is offensive.
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Chris_Goti is right, context is everything. Only the person addressed by the nickname knows whether it is offensive or not.
This issue is being blown out of all proportion, Harry is no better or worse in his behaviour than any other man of his age. Surely there have to be more important things going on?
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Prince Harry has transgressed but by how much? Surely word he used belongs amongst Yank, Kr**t, Eyetye and such slang. It is not polite and Harry should have known better, but holding enquiries etc - Let his dad sort him out!
R**head? Is there not a soldier in the British Army that doesn't use the term? It is going to stick when you are fighting for your life with people wearing such headgear - they are your deadly enemy. It happens in every war. Perhaps we should first address those who send our young men and women onto the battlefield!
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2, 3, 4, 5,
I agree
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DRAG" me here and what do i get moaning about nothing that matters very much in the whole scheme of things ,in relevance,to what is really important .
Again Murdoch is up to his old tricks in regards republicism.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Totally disagree with the comments so far. Using the word IS offensive.
I don't care whether the soldier in question minded or not (and I think it very unlikely that he would now admit if he did find it objectionable). The word is almost always used as a term of abuse or at best, disparagement. Condoning or being ambivalent to its use, especially in an environment like the Army, gives the green light to those who would use it to insult and demean.
Whether the then cadet officer who used the term thought it abusive at the time is immaterial. He was right to apologise.
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The really interesting point about this would be to know just who, and for what motive and reward, decided to provide this three year old story to the media. No doubt they are delighted with the media's hysterical response.
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Here is another situation where the reaction is in danger of becoming worse than the transgression that caused it.
I woke this morning to hear Keith Vaz threatening to march Rod Richards and Prince Harry off to an orwellian, 'Racial Awareness Class'.
Many other commentators who police the political correctness of our nation, have, again, taken great glee in being insulted by silly, racial remarks.
Prince Harry was daft to use a term which, as Murad Ahmed's piece points out, is historically loaded in a way which does not mean it is similar to other terms like 'Taff'.
However, the shrill and reactionary tone of modern political correctness is in danger of creating that which it aims to stamp out : racism.
The white majority will become resentful of being told what they can and cannot say and think and if they don't oblige, having to be marched off to be re-educated by Mr Vaz and his friends.
This would be a disaster as the fight against racism and other prejudices have, largely, won the battle in our modern society and quite rightly so.
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Curious my comment has been moderated. There were two sections. Out of curiosity I want to break them down:
I said that, apparently the English do not like to be called 'Poms' by the Aussies. I have some very close English friends and I would not dream of referring to them as 'Poms' either in their company or otherwise.
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Chris@02
I'm with you on this one.
When I typed the word under discussion into a famous search engine, amongst other things, it produced the following site.
http://www.pakirecipes.com/
"Welcome to PakiRecipes :: The Largest Collection of Pakistani Recipes Online"
...and a very good site it looks too.
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Didn't Prince Charles once refer to himself as a "Pommie b*st*rd" during a visit to Australia?
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I was just as concerned that Harry was smoking a ciggie, which he spat on the ground, and was waving a machete around. I thought the gov't was concerned about young people smoking and knife crime. Not a very good example to set for young people. Like grandfather, like grandson.
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The P Word is as offensive as any other derrogatory word.
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`It is going to stick when you are fighting for your life with people wearing such headgear - they are your deadly enemy.` #6
Umm, Harry was using it about a fellow British army officer, in army uniform - and bareheaded.
I think this is one of those abbreviations where not just context but also the tone of voice it is said in that are important. It can clearly be used as a term of abuse; it could be used as in a more endearing way (as can Taff, Geordie, Scouser etc) but you need to talk with the person to find out what they consider acceptable?
All terms such as this can come loaded with assumptions and preconceptions ? as comment 6 above shows.
To comment on post two.
?as the article notes, someone who is part of the 'family' (another negro) can use the n-word legitimately, whereas I, not a negro, am not using it here because it would probably get moderated off the blog.?
Very, very, very few black people in the UK use that term, in any context; most do find it offensive.
Those that do are influenced by American gansta rap records. In gansta rap terms it is shorthand for someone who is uneducated, dangerous, criminal etc.
Back in the 1960s and 70s, prior to gansta rap, there were efforts made in America by black civil rights activists to reclaim the clearly derogatory 'n' word from white southern racists and redefine it by using it as a term of affection between themselves, but this didn?t make much impact in the UK. It's not just about context, its also about what country it's used in.
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(15) Vyle: he may well have done. Similarly I could refer to myself as an Ozzie (a phrase I never heard used in Australia), or an American might refer to themselves as a 'Yank' - but if someone uses the term about another person, it might easily be seen as derogatory, cause offense and so terms like this are therefore best avoided.
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As my post at 13 hasn't been moderated, I must have broken the rules by drawing attention to Harry's dubious parentage.
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The use of this term in public is offensive to many and not in a new or surprising way. If you met someone in the street of Pakistani descent you would not use this term. The suggestion that this is not a racially loaded term is pretty thin.
However, this was a group of people referring to each other in private. The video was not meant for public consumption so it's release rather than it's existence is the act of malice.
PH must answer to the man in question alone, in my opinion. If he, as he quite rightly could, took offence, then he is owed an apology. If it represented bullying then Harry's superiors should become involved. If this was part of their normal, private banter and insult was neither implied nor inferred then I am supremely uninterested.
I wonder if those at NotW would stand up to 24 hour scrutiny as well as Harry dose. It wouldn't have at his age.
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L_S 20, I was modded for referring to a brand of chocolate bar. (Think famous baseball player.)
I don't like being called a Yank. How about Rosbif for Brits? Or is 'Brit' offensive?
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L_S 20, Dubious parentage? What the Butler Saw ?
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Question: was the phrase objected to 'our little packy friend', or was it 'our little friend Packy'? There would be a world of difference, I feel.
(I have been told that my post failed the profanity filter when I used the word as spelt in the header to this thread, so I am trying it with an alternative spelling.)
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(22) David: interesting that you don't like being called a 'Yank' - surely another example of why people should avoid such terms. I don't find 'Oz' or 'Ozzie' offensive.
Not sure if the British find 'Brit' offensive ... I'm sure we'll soon be told... in any case, I would avoid it.
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I'm with Mr Loon (10) on this one. It's offensive, no matter what the context.
No one objected three years ago because we didn't know about it.
Harry has a privileged position in our society, and we expect a higher standard of behaviour from him.
And don't forget, the 'correctness' in 'political correctness' means that it is right.
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DMcN (22) - Was Curly Wurly a pitcher?
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As an old fashioned un-reconstructed male, can somebody answer this please?.Apparently "rag-head" is O.K., because they are the 'enemy'. Since many of the insurgent militants who are bombing half the world are Pakistani, or trained in Pakistan, what exactly is the PC word for these?
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(23) No David, rather more to do with Hewitt and the validity of Harry's privileged position.
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It's hardly surprising that Harry used this word. look at the role model he had in his grandfather. It's about time we got rid of this lot.
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QL 27, Started as one with Boston, but was better known as a slugger with the Yankees. Know who I mean, nudge, nudge, wink, wink?
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there was a fascinating interview on the Today programme several years ago, when John Humphreys was talking to an american general. The general was praising the contribution of the Brits and the 'words in question' to an operation (I think in Africa). You could hear the wheels in Humphreys head spinning as he tried to decide whether or not to make the point that Brit is an affectionate diminutive, while 'P***', here, is not. If someone can find it, it makes the point about the ear of the beholder very well!!
and I can't get the p word past the filter!!
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Oh for God's sake what a lot of fuss about nothing. I'm sure the person concerned (a captain in the army) is a big enough person not to be offended by this. It sounded to me like a term of endearment. The ethnic minorities make things infinitely worse by making a fuss over something which the person it referred to didn't mind at all. This is the sort of thing blokes say to other blokes they call each other all sorts of things. not usually very complimentary. Why is everybody so oversensitive? "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names shall never hurt me."
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Obviously any word said with hatred and derision is offensive. It's not the word, it's the way it is is said. Prince Harry said it with entire weight of the derision of the British public school system for Asian people behind his words. He perpetuates the oppression of Asian people in the UK.
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L_S 29, Every time I have been called a Yank on a forum it has been meant in a nasty way because I said something someone didn't like. I thought Oz was Oz Clarle.
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At my school where the demographic is 50% Caucasian to 50% minority. The P word is bandied around in the same way teenagers add "like" at the end of every clause and use "whatever" to reply to our esteemed teachers. Perhaps Harry is just one of the lads? Perhaps his fellow soldiers use the P word too? He may be a royal and maybe he should know better, but it's becoming a common word to those who don't understand the full context of it's history.
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What a horrible fuss over the 3-year-old video and the unaggressive words of Prince Harry. What about apologies being demanded for every Muslim calling non-believers 'Infidels'? Some people are just waiting to be angry about something, anything, then press and politicians jump on the band-waggon.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It is an offensive term. This country made it such through hateful overuse in the 60s and 70s.
Harry would have known very well that it was not OK to use this word, just as he knew that it was not OK to dress in a brown shirt and swastika armband. The problem is that the boy is an idiot and the bigger problem is that he carries the reputation of this country with him.
He has since served his country bravely and I hope the experience has taught him some common sense although I doubt it. Watch this space for more ruddy cheeked bumbling gaffes.
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Ozzies call me a pom and I don't take offence. The Pak is our corner shop in most places and is not in the slightest bit racist. The PC'ers should grow up. And its difficult to post to a blog with a profanity filter that include the subject of the post!!!
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nG 28, I noticed that too when it was being reported. If Harry had been fighting in Africa, would it have been all right to refer to the enemy as Wogs, Nignogs, or worse?
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Whether the term in question is offensive or not depends entirely on the way it is used. In the way the young man in question used it, it is no more offensive than the term 'Brit'. If the term is preceded by an abusive expletive, it is offensive, without doubt, as it would be if 'Brit' was used like that. I've heard Pakistani people using it.
This country has become far too thin skinned and pathetic, with various pressure groups claiming the right to control the language of the rest of us in ways that suit them. I can't even type the 'P' word on this forum without the BBC's leftist profanity filter acting as Big Brother and refusing my comment (which was typed in inverted commas) lest anyone fear that I was using it abusively. Whatever next? We can't even discuss the 'P' word without a robot refusing to accept it. Britain really has gone mad - I fear free speech is doomed here.
By the way, if you think I am being insensitive, I was beaten at school by people claiming that I was a 'w o g', so I know what it is like to be racially abused.
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Pakistanis seem to be selective when they want to be offended. P a k i.net is a Pakistani website, There was the Indo-Pak war, Pak on its own and joined with other words occurs a lot in the Pakistani world such as with restaurant names. This is just a way of making middle-class chatterati squirm!
If the argument is that the NF or BNP have made it off limits, then I reject it, no one is hijacking our language.
And certainly it is not going to be reserved by the Pakistani community but forbidden to the rest of us, what a cheek!
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I daresay that the UK is having its own "n*gger" moment. Both terms are abusive due to their historical usages. Has anyone ever heard Bill Cosby talking about Black Americans' use of the n word amongst themselves?
As for Harry; well he did not use it in public or in his uniform, as well as it being abundantly clear that he is "not the sharpest knife in the drawer". If people want to bash royals, there is so much more than such trivial things to trash ALL royalty about!
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LS38 moderated
opps me too - must be an illigitimate subject.
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Good God. The BBC have gone mad. All thats happening in the world and they give seemingly endless air time to this elderly non- story.
Give us some NEWS!
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C_G 28, So, Eddie can use 'Pacqui' in large letters up above, but you can't use it here?
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Just watched the video.
Its a bunch of soldiers mucking about during training.
Officer Cadet Wales was joining in and trying to be "normal" (or what passes for normal in our armed forces).
We are asking these people to both kill and die for us - leave them alone when they go too far in private!!!
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Is this what PM is coming to? Giving airtime to yet more politically correct nonsense. I have many Asian friends whom I call 'P--i, I can't repeat what they call me in return. Please stick to stories that matter not stories that entertain otherwise you will be embarking upon the slippery slope of appalling 'churnalism' and as if the general public isn't inflicted with enough distortion and outright lies from the media as it is.
I don't believe this but your site won't post my comment because of the word P--i. Give me strength!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ppw 43., And Pack Up Your Troubles was a popular WW1 song.
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And by the way, Young Harry was about eighteen at the time, and unlike all the buffoons objecting to his 'racism' spent months risking his life in Afghanistan to defend the way of life of this nation (presumably including the right to free speech) while most of those seeking to have him humiliated were cosily going about their own business. A lot of people in this country need to get a life and recognise some real issues to get alarmed and excited about.
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26. At 4:56pm on 12 Jan 2009, Sid wrote:
'I'm with Mr Loon (10) on this one. It's offensive, no matter what the context.
No one objected three years ago because we didn't know about it.'
You must lead a sheltered life, it's used by a majority of the population, especially up north where most of the Pakistani communities are. It seems to have become more prevalent since Pakistanis have been identified as 'the enemy' ie implicated in many of the terror outrages both here and abroad. But it isn't owned by the BNP, and anyone who's been in the armed forces knows that in the rough and tumble of service life, everyone is insulted on a daily basis, it's all banter from all ranks down the hierarchy.
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It is racist but what do say when a Pakistani or a south Asian calls you 'Gora'???
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The word Pakistan means "land of the pure people" , meaning in contrast to those dirty non-Muslims in India and the rest of the world.
Isn't that offensive?
It seems that it is only whites who can be found guilty of racism just because they use a word. Is it not a seriously racist double standard that unlike the historic natives of this land, Blacks and Asians are exempt from having to fear losing their job for using a wrong word?
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There is a vicious "war" taking place in Gaza. A recession is swamping the world. And PM spent its first fifteen minutes today on whether it was appropriate for Prince Harry -- three years ago, and in a private circumstance -- to use the word P***
(When I first printed the word out with no asterisks, as it is being used on the programme, my comment was refused because it had been barred by something called the "profanity filter". I had not thought it was possible for the BBC to get more -- pointlessly -- politically correct.)
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L_S 29, That's what I meant, considering H's position, but I didn't want to be modded, yet again.
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This use of the word "Pa*i" by prince Harry is in my opinion not racist, it is just a term used by colleagues in the army.
However the word is not short for "Pakistani" and never has been since the right wing took it and began to use the word as a term of abuse.
I am originally from Glasgow and I used the word frequently as a child to go to the shops, my Mum would ask me to go to the "Pa*is" for bread on a Sunday because no one else was open. I became friendly with many kids of pakistani origin and used the word but it was never concidered racist by me or my friends.
However in the early 1980`s when I was grown and moved to England it was my first experience of Racism and the use of Pa*i as a derogitory term and ever since that day I have never and would never use that term and every white person living in the UK today Know that it is a word with racist undertones so to say it is a shorten version of Pakistani is in my opinion racist.
And one other thning that proves my point that anyone who says that the word Pa*i is just a shortened version of Pakistani is this Blog which will not allow the word Pa*i through its filter!
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16. At 4:27pm on 12 Jan 2009, David_McNickle wrote:
'I was just as concerned that Harry was smoking a ciggie, which he spat on the ground, and was waving a machete around. I thought the gov't was concerned about young people smoking and knife crime. Not a very good example to set for young people. Like grandfather, like grandson.'
YES! I noticed that and wondered why the health nazis weren't complaining about bad examples. LOL. Actually, I think he was showing off, doing a turn, and the ciggie was a prop which he eventually spat out as he got bored with it. Or is he an addict? Should we be told? Do we care?
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Overreaction Overreaction Overeaction!
Not heard a response from the Pakistani
Officer as yet?? only misplaced outrage
from bandwagoners and the guy's uncle.
I am a Taffy..... does it offend me when
my Cockney friend calls me Taffy and
comments on the Welsh love of sheep.
Nope... not one jot. Time folk got fired
up about the really important things not
interfering rubbish produced by NoTW
and such.
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In the same video, young 'Wales' pretends to be on the phone to the Queen, and says, 'Got to go Granny. My love to the corgies, God save you.' Really - this is a fuss about nothing. Let the lad be for God's sake.
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"P..." may be emotive but should it be? - is it any worse than "Yank" "Oz" "Frog" "Kraut" "Limey" or "Rosbif"?
Where will political correctness end?
In this context it seems most unlikely it was meant in a bad way so what on earth is all the fuss about
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"P*k*" to me is definitely a racist word! I have heard people use it to refer to anybody who is "Asian looking" and by that I mean, not white enough. " Asian looking people" might not all be from Pakistan (though there's nothing wrong with being Pakistani), they might be from Cuba, Bangladesh, Britain...you name it!!!!!
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I can't imagine anyone making a fuss if I were to refer to an Australian as "our aussie friend". So why are people making so much fuss about the Pakistani equivalent. To me, there's absolutely no difference.
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Maybe it is unfair to single Harry out as I'm pretty sure that a lot of servicemen use such terms of abuse, and worse. But let's not forget that Harry used homophobic terms in the same video as well as racist ones. I find it offensive that these have been largely ignored.
The saddest factor is that a young man born in 1986 is using a term that was last in common usage in the 1970s many years before he was born. Where did he lean such terms?
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I have used the word P word as an abreviation, just like Aussie and would like to be able to still do so.However if normal people who have Pakistani roots are really made unhappy by it's use I will never use it again.
Perhaps I shouldn't shorten any name ,do Australians find "Aussie" as offensive.?
I have had to use "P word" just to get this comment accepted.
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"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me", I was taught as a child.
Reclaim the word from the racists.
There was once a Pakistani businessman who owned the numberplate PAK 1.
It's an abbreviation. Get over it.
When I was in my teens in the 1970s I used to partake in recreational drugs. "PakiBlack" and "Red Leb" were two common varieties. Neither terms were deemed offensive to either Pakistanis or Lebanese.
Among Greeks the word "M@laka" (one who masturbates) used to be offensive. Now, through common usage it has become a term of endearment.
I know someone who used the term "'Stani" in a neutral matter of fact manner, simly to avoid the associations with the front end. Is that racists too?
Some members of the Royal Family are racist with some very dubious right wing views, but that is a different issue.
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My first post contained the word P... in full but was blocked by the "profanity moderator" so it seems someone somewhere has already decided it's not only not PC but is "profane"?????
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Oh come on! This is a classic example of inventing a debate where there isn't one. 'P***' is still an offensive term and we can invent as many obscure, trendy arguments as we like to inappropriately defend its use. But in the end, we all know what most people are really saying about themselves when they use it.
Just because the BBC is obliged to give the Royal Family a fighting chance every time it fouls up no matter how blatantly, do we have to put up a with a silly contrived pseudo-debate like this which is just a desperate effort to get this idiot off the hook?
Try this: Gordon Brown refers to Keith Vaz as a 'P***'.
P.S. I couldn't post this in its original form as the BBC's "profanity filter" wouldn't let it through. How ironic!
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10. At 2:51pm on 12 Jan 2009, QualifiedLoon
Qualified in what? Certainly not linguistics. Why do you claim the first half of a word is offensive and not the second half, or the two together? What is your reasoning, rather than a statement you wish to be taken as fact.
What is it with some people that certain words upset them, despite a word meaning exactly the same is deemed acceptable; sexual congress is ok but oh horrors, I can't even type the f word 'cos Auntie Robot Censor will disallow my post. Does this strike anyone else as just a touch insane and worthy of the Red Queen in Alice?
What shall we ban next? Something trivial surely, nothing like murdering children in their homes and other inconsequential rag-head stuff.
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Maybe because I have two young adult sons I cant stand all this sactimonious condemnation of Harry.
Israel in Gaza is racism (missing from your programme? ) - not the daft but well meaning remarks of a young lad three years ago!
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Robustness and daring on military operations start with very tough training. Mental resilience and the ability to take a joke are essential characteristics in a good soldier or officer. It's part of the fabric of military life and any PC interference would be quiet unwarranted. Never was the saying more true, "If you can't take a joke, then you shouldn't have joined". Leave Harry alone; he's a good young officer as the coverage of him in Afghanistan showed so clearly.
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17. At 4:31pm on 12 Jan 2009, floridaRoberto62 wrote:
The P Word is as offensive as any other derrogatory word.
Define derrogatory. Or did you mean derogatory? That means expressive of low opinion, so... you find offensive the expressing of low opinion? That's pretty intolerant of you, now you've found me offensive. Low tolerance level?
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I just tried to comment on here and my comment was 'failed by the profanity filter' even though I did not use any swear word of any description but did put in several words that might be used to describe ethnicity - not necessarily rudely.
As I couldn't be bothered to go back and change one letter in each word in order to pass the 'profanity filter' I deleted my comment.
Apparently it's all too easy possible to go too far on the BBC - however putting in White, Brit, Aussie, Frog, etc. is apparently OK.
Racism in England only exists on way round.
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What on earth is all the fuss about? Prince Harry made the comments three years ago and in the context of a group of fellow colleagues. When I am with close colleagues we often make remarks to each other that would cause the PC brigade to blow a fuse. I have no doubt that Prince Harry only made the remark because it was to a friend who may well have responded in kind! Surely in a world beset with so many problems the media should get a life. But I suppose that would involve them doing some real work.
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A few years ago whilst walking through St.James' Park,London, my husband and I heard some young French boys speaking in French, call us La Roast Beef , now that is meant to be derogatory. Now we know that the French and English historically haven't got on that well and we thought it rather funny to hear some young frogs calling us names! We don't feel upset that they called us names and we have names for them. It seems to me that the English sense of humour isn't shared by the rest of the world. Nor do our own youngsters understand it because they are no longer taught what it is to be English they are in limbo in some areas of their lives through lack of teaching. We used to joke about the Irish, they joked about us. I am both Irish and English and appreciate both. It's such a pity that these things get blown out of proportion. To end, Prince Harry made those remarks three years ago. Maybe he has grown up a little since then?
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IGwt 57, And we all go to the Chinky for fish and chips, don't we?
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Interesting that "wogs" and "nignogs" which are racist get past the profanity filter. The BBC must therefore be racist. QED
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How to empower your enemies? Give them the power to take control of a word such that it can no longer be used for routine purposes but now "belongs" exclusively to them.
The real reason why the p-word has become unacceptable is the vicous anti-white inverted racism of the PC brigade which looks for every possible excuse to persecute white people for being white. These same PC-ists happily promote a book titled "Stupid White Men" but would consider it a capital crime to publish a book titled "Stupid Black Women" (etc). That's yet more of the real racism.
First give the bnp a monopoly of sanity and then fail to take the blame for the whirlwind you reap.
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Anyone who doesn't realize this is offensive, hasn't suffered racist abuse.
...and possibly lack empathy and imagination.
Harry has had a very white up-bringing.
and he obviously has huge gaps of knowledge for it.
listening to the program now, it sounds like Pakistanis are being asked to negate their memories, emotions and intelligence so that the thoughtless people using this offensive term can carry on doing so.
I am Anglo-Brazilian.
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I'm sorry I'm returning to this, but I can't get over the fact that PM invites a debate on the use of the term 'P*k*' in a desperate bid to help out our latest Royal dope and contributors find the Beeb's banned the word.
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ppw 58, The ciggie didn't look lit to me either. Maybe he was trying to quit. Stop trying to ruin my posts.
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66. Drogbalacks: 'Among Greeks the word "M@laka" (one who masturbates) used to be offensive. Now, through common usage it has become a term of endearment.'
Common usage? ;-)
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I thought the P word was Pl*nk*r.
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On behalf of the Welsh Sheep Lovers Society I really must object to being called a Ram!
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What ever happened to freedom of speech?
Are there any words describing white people that aren't allowed?
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QL, You been calling someone a Stani again?
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Very low quality of BBC reporting here. Earlier reports were accurate and ok. But then the news reports changed to stating as truth that H had said a "racist" word, and that he had apologised for it. No, he apologised for any offence caused, not for his use of the word. Huge difference.
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Brace yourselves ! Another aged , unreconstructed type here .
Harry seems to be a good type and yet he's been forced into apologising for a fabricated nonsense contrived by , who exactly ?
I must say that this smacks of yet more token appeasement of the wholly divisive muslim element within British society . Seemingly , Harry's dark deed happened in 2006 . It took this long for it to emerge ? As a scandal ? How is this so ?
It would seem that these types who scream 'racism' at the drop of a pin do absolutely nothing for the common good as they relentlessly pursue an agenda of divisiveness within our society . They certainly refuse to 'fit in' with the rest of us as they try to ram their humourless ideals down the throats of the rest of us .
They've succeeded . Still , our Brit muslims can rest assured that we have a wretched government that , as the police state we are now , actively censors non-pc thought and , will do their will .
Oh dear !
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I am proud to be a member of multi-cultral family.
Re the terms used by PH - P... and R..h..d.
If you have had to endure racism as a member of my family has, and terms such as the ones PHarry spoke of have been used against you as a form of abuse, regardless of their actual nationality, then you would understand why people take offense at its recent use. Such terms have been used regardless of what nationality one might be - Nepalese; Indian; Pakistani or any of the Arab nations. If one has never had to endure racism and find the term acceptable, surely the fact that many people are hurt by it and find it offensive should be enough not to use it. To use it demonstrates utter insensitivity. I am sure that as a callow youth P Harry found it OK to say amongst friends and since maturing I am also sure he will be embarassed at his naivity.
Hurtful language isn't limited to racism. Any one of us could be disabled or as we age become confused. Would any of us like to be called a name associated with the past in relation to our disability or mental state - language that was once acceptable but is now abhorrant?
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There is no getting away from the fact that "P***" is used as a term of abuse by people who have no idea of the nationality or country of origin of the person they use it to describe.
I heard a comment from someone on PM saying that saying "P***" was just like saying "Brit". This is rubbish. People use the term "Brit" to refer to someone from Britain, whereas "P***" is a derogatory term used against anyone with brown skin.
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the prince used it once, on my way home from work it must have been used 50 times, evey news paper,news report,any radio program seems to be using it. i can under stand the offence caused so there is to be no shortend name and nick names incase of offence
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ms 88, Yeah, I'll bet the film is colored b&w.
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I commented that certain words which I would define as racist have passed the Profanity filter. This post has not been published but referred to the moderator. I wonder why?
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The problem is, a prince is one of the corner stones of our social and yes political system whether you like it or not. Therefore, ultimately, the governing powers are going to back up the position/office whoever holds it as long as it serves their political goals. I imagine there will be a team scurrying around the corridors of power somewhere second guessing the next press move in an attempt to be able to counter act the negativity and also to make it look like they do not condone the prince whilst at the same time not condemning him.
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Harry is a highly privileged young man, whose lavish life is funded by taxpayers, including those of Pakistani origin. He has no excuse - the work his father has done to build constructive dialogue and relationships between cultures, faiths and racial groups reinforce this point.
This matters because the term is widely regarded as racist by those subjected to it. Incidentally, this is not confined to those of Pakistani origin - friends of mine whose origins are Chilean, Iranian and Greek have been insulted in this way. It also matters because of the violently racist history associated with the term (it is distinguished from Jock and Taffy, for example, because neither of these form an OED recognised compound word ending in 'bashing'). The one good thing coming out of this spoiled subsidised brat's behaviour is the surfacing of this debate.
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Eddie,
Why didn't you try to get a word from Ron Atkinson?
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The BBC seem delighted to add fuel to any possible 'racist' fire.
The report tonight was as usual a one way bias, loaded with comments from the Asian Network and did not reflect the predominant views both here and on the Have Your Say site - that this is a storm in a tea cup and there are far worse things going on around us. Is there anyone on the planet who has not been called something 'unfair' at some time in their lives? - That's life folks - get over it.
This is not worth the air time being given to it.
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I have used the term in anger and also added a comment about parentage at the same time. Mind you I had just been assaulted by a young man of Asian origin so did feel justified. Does that make me racist?
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The word p__i as an abbreviation means "cleanliness" in urdu. Its etymology is in Islam, however it was frequently used as an insult prior to being physically assaulted in the 70's 80's. A number of people have been called p__i before they have been murdered. See ref Case No: 2004/978/MTR
IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION.
Those that have been called taffy, ginger have not been treated like this. Even arabs/indians/turks have been called p__i. It would not be so bad if some one from council flats was using this name but this prince is 3rd in line to the throne. When i was called it made me very angry especially when i was punched. However the issue now is 4 and 5 th generation asians may not be so mild. they will react with equal vigour. The other issue is p__i is also attached to p__i shop/taxi/area. The last used to describe a slum as if somehow asian "areas" are bad areas. If Harry is to change minds in Afghanistan the first thing you have to do is to be polite to the host nation no matter what the pressure is on you as an individual. Personally I see this word as part of the overall attack/criticism on islam and muslims.
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I lived in the Middle East for 14 years where racism is not only rife it is institutionalised with a clear "pecking order"
As foreigners Brits Yanks and Frogs et al had no recourse against the system (neither did Asians who were much worse off) - even our visas had to sponsored by a local who could have you removed from the country any time he fancied
I'm not racist just realist - (actually prejudiced against more white people than any other group!) - how do we give all people the full protection of all our laws and rights when when we go to "their" country we have none? We even send people overseas to help when 2nd generation immigrants go to their parents country and get forced into marriage.
The British taxpayer has an awful lot to pay for
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A question:-
If this comment was made 3 years ago - how come it has taken that long for someone to be offended by it?
Are they actually offended by the abbreviated name of a country,or just making an issue for the sake of making an issue?
Another question:-
Are we to stop using words like Swede on the basis that it makes people sound like vegetables instead of Swedish?
Of course we have the Man from Manchester who is a Manchurian or the Brummie from Birmingham who could be from any nation in the world!
If the People from Pakistan are upset because someone has shortened the long word Pakistani in a friendly way then I would say that any person who finds it offensive is the one with the problem.
If you really want to be offended then I am sure you can find something somewhere if you look hard enough. We all know that you can't please all the people all the time.
"And DON'T call me MOTHER!! I am a mom.
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43, 44 - Interesting points. When I was at Uni about half the class were of Pakistani origin. My best mate at Uni came from Pakistan. She routinely used to describe herself as Pa*i and the Asian students that were part of our friendship group also used to refer to themselves and each other as Pa*i. The white members of the group initially never used the word because we understood it to be unpleasant rather than openly racist. My friend told me that it spoke volumes about our upbringing and attitudes rather than theirs - it amused her that we avoided the word and winced when they used it.
I still can't use the word myself and I'm still uncomfortable with it. Other white students in the group did eventually accept the invitation to use the word but it was only ever within the group and with people who had indicated that they were comfortable with it being used. It was certainly never used by these students as a term of abuse. It does make me question where the "ownership" of the word now lies.
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BettyHur@101
Dear mom, I think the recent history of the expression - successfully adopted as it was in the '70's by the extreme right wing Fascist organisation the National Front tells you all you need to know about the use of the word 'P*k*' in Britain.
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Are French people getting equally upset if they are called "frogs" ? Or maybe Germans should not be Jerrys, Australiens "Aussis" "Pommis" and I have also heard of "spaghetti eaters".
Let's not be too sensitive. I am one of those nationals above and can't but smile about it. It's either negative or friendly, but whatever it is, I don't get upset about it. From a happy foreigner living in the UK.
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I'll take media-promoted condemnation of his use of the term (how mad - your filter won't even allow it to be written for the purpose of discussion here) in private seriously when equal uproar is whipped up every time we are called "brits" publically.
We have a developed a negative "own goal" attitude to what is worthy of reporting in this country and the sooner the media regains a grip on perspective / cause and effect, the better for all.
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So - come on - when is the term "brit" going to be censored on this website ?????
Proves my point so well.
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Analogies with terms like ?Pommie? or ?Yank? seem to me to miss the point. Those terms may have their origins in the imperialist experience, but they don?t, to my knowledge, have the same history ? and recent history, at that -- of use with hostile intent against a powerless minority.
Or rather minorities, for let?s not forget that usage of the offending term went well beyond denoting people from Pakistan or of Pakistani origin. It fast came to be used to denote anybody from the Subcontinent ? indeed, anybody with a certain skin tone. It thus became emblematic of a kind of ?they?re all the same? racism, and of a wilful indifference towards and lack of interest in the history and culture of other peoples. It seems to me that the term ?Asian?, though it seems to have the blessing of the so-called ?Asian community?, is used today with the same lack of modulation in specificity of reference, and thus has a similar capacity to convey disdain -- to these ears, at least.
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petepassword (various) - Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least part of your argument seems to be that people shouldn't get upset by what they are called and that different words with the same basic meaning can't differ in the level of insult they deliver.
It is a bit irrelevant whether you think that people shouldn't be upset by what they are called, isn't it? If they feel insulted then they feel insulted. And different words for the same thing can carry different levels of insult. The fact that you don't like it being so, doesn't change the fact.
Apart from a simple spelling mistake, there is nothing wrong with the use by floridaRoberto62 (17) of the word 'derogatory'. My OED defines it as 'showing a critical or disrespective attitude'. That sounds bang on to me.
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I actually took the time to view the video in question on the NOTW website. It is a very tongue-in-cheek home movie with a lot of army chaps in a spoof type of video. In a situation like this, the intention of the user of the word, the relationship between the two persons involved and the context are everything. Prince Harry probably exercised poor judgement in this situation (a number of years ago) when he was an even younger man (a group who have notoriously poor judgement). He should have known that any slip he made would be blown out of all proportion. However we now have everyone jumping on the bandwagon and relatives of the officer in question et al stating their offence by proxy. Has the officer in question complained? Not that I have heard. Perhaps it's a nickname acceptable to Harry's colleague, who else therefore has the right to complain? Are we getting to the point where the use of particular words are to be banned in the English language. Is it to be acceptable for asian people to use this word but not caucasian people? What follows next? The banning of books?? No mention is made of the joke made of Harry's ginger body hair in the video. Is this not racist too? This is a storm in a tea cup unless Ahmed Raza Khan wants to take it further.
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David_McNickle
Yes and after fish and chips we would go to the "tally" for ice cream
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Unfortunately our Royal Family have little influence if any in the running of our country. Just figureheads I'm afraid. Even our Government has little to do with the laws that are made since they come from the E.U. now!
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To "QualifiedLoon": "It is a bit irrelevant whether you think that people shouldn't be upset by what they are called, isn't it? If they feel insulted then they feel insulted."
I wasn't aware the recipient of this nickname HAD made a complaint of being insulted ?? The reason it was brought to peoples' attention was because the gutter press were short of a headline to sell their papers.
Once in the public domain of course EVERYONE can now jump on the
"insulted" bandwagon and magnify a private comment amongst soldier buddies out of all proportion!
Its a good job there aren't microphones in every workplace in Britain - if there were, the News of the World would run daily to 16 or more volumes - get a grip...people of all creeds use nicknames.
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Well, it had never occurred to me that the word was anything other than an abbreviation of "Pakistani". Mind you, it's not a word I've had cause to use for years and the only contexts I ever did have cause to use it in were when I lived in London in the 60s and 70s and was in connection with (a) the local corner shop and (b) a particular "brand" of hash that used to be available (may still be for all I know) called "P*** Black" (note I'm forced to use the asterisks as the bare word is now deemed a "profanity"). I never thought of either context as being racist, and would never dream of hurling racially-based insults at anybody. Any more than I would hurl insults based on sexual orientation or religion.
However I am of necessity willing to avoid the word if it is deemed to be racist, much as I choose to go along with other things deemed culturally necessary without really understanding the reasons for them. Nevertheless I would point out that every word which a particular group labels as insulting against themselves adds to the arsenal of words available for others with malicious intent to use against them.
As for me, as someone who has no idea of his own ethnicity (really, I haven't a clue since I come from what appears to be a long line of bastards!) I don't care what you call me, I am what I am, whatever that may turn out to be. Only please don't miss-spell my name, as I do find that extremely irritating Eddie.
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Mr Password (52) - I'm afraid you missed my point. It's not the use of the word that people haven't objected to - it's Prince Harry's use of it, three years ago. (You are right, nonetheless - I have had a sheltered upbringing.)
RantingOldGit - if he's 24 now, and this was 3 years ago - I make his age then 21. You make it 18. Ho hum.
And to all those who think this is a fuss about nothing - why are you joining in?
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aytchgee1 (112) - If you read my (10) you'll see that I don't claim to know. My latest post was on the general question of whether words can be abusive. I think it is either naive or disingenuous to claim that they can't.
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Surely, members of ethnic minorities living in the green and pleasant land of England have abusive and contemptuous terms for members of the host nation. Could co-bloggers kindly provide some, so we can be offended too?
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First, I?d like to refer those of you who insist on making crass analogies with ?Brit? and other relatively innocuous terms (?Swede? takes the biscuit, but we?ll get to that in a minute) to Post 90, by Moongazingbee.
Secondly, here's a useful exercise.
You are employed in the Cabinet press office. A notoriously inept, gaffe-prone, underbriefed minister has joined in the debate over Prince Harry's use of a racist term by making the following hopelessly inappropriate and trivializing analogy (and echoing, in the process, the words of BettyHur in post 101 on this very forum):
"Are we to stop using words like Swede on the basis that it makes people sound like vegetables instead of Swedish?"
Clearly, the whole debate on the nature of racism, and the forms it takes, has somehow passed the Minister by; he simply has no idea of what he has talking about. But you, as a press officer, are not allowed to admit this. Your task is to explain away his comment; put a positive spin on it.
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In Post 98, Stewart M wrote:
"I have used the term in anger and also added a comment about parentage at the same time. Mind you I had just been assaulted by a young man of Asian origin so did feel justified. Does that make me racist?"
Of course it makes you a racist, and an ignorant racist to boot. How would you feel if somebody called you a French barsteward? "But I'm not even French," you'd respond, right?
Read Post 90 by Moongazingbee and my own Post 107, if it ever appears.
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Speaking as an Asian, I would say that Prince Harrys use of this term was unequivocally wrong.
As some of the previous comments have pointed out, it's all about context.
context 1, now long gone, was that this was a term used by Pakistanis to describe themselves.
However, this was rapidly taken over by context 2. in the 60's, 70's and 80's it was used as a term of offence, often preceeded by "dirty" or followed by "go home". I can attest to this as an child of indian immigrants growing up in inner city Birmingham in this era. It was also a highly threatening term. Let's not forget the "p--i bashers". These were youths, mostly skin heads, who put razor blades into the front of their boots to go out kicking their victims in the shins. The targets being pretty much anyone who appeared to be of Asian origin, be they Pakistani, Indian or whatever. A nice easy insult, for all brown-skinned folk alike.
The third context was its use by the elderly British english, who used it without malice, but with ignorance. This population has now largely died out.
The fourth context, as described by commentator 102, is that the term has now been taken back by some members of Asian youth, a bit like the term N----r has been reclaimed by some Afro Caribbean people. But asians are allowed to do this. White english people are not, and this is because of the dreadful history of the term, as
used by white english peple in very recent history.
So, then, which of these four contexts was Harry using it in? It does not take a genius to see that it was racist abuse, aimed at pointing out difference in a bullying, undermining manner. The soldier in question has remained quiet on the matter, which is to his credit. Perhaps he wants to save Harry further embarrassment. But I have no doubt that he will have been injured by this, and the other racist comments he will have undoubtedly received at Sandhurst.
This term is very, very different to calling someone a Brit, Aussie or a Gora etc. It's history of being used in anger and with physical violence against a minority group who were vulnerable and unable to defend themselves is what makes it so.
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I agree with all the other comments about use of the word being context, and intent, dependent.
But I was disappointed to hear someone's father immediately saying 'It's racist' and, in so doing, perpetuating the provenance of its' pejorative nature (which actually was always context dependent, even in the past). It might have been far more enlightened to have said 'It used to be considered racist ...'
Meanwhile, are we to call citizens of the neighbouring country 'Afghanistani' or is calling them 'Afghan' unintentionally racist too?
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This moderation seems to be taking a long time in some cases.
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It seems that every time we have big problems in this country the media looks for something to down the royal family and take our minds off the big storys, I think that this ones gone to far. I served in the Royal Navy for 17 years and have had a lot of names shouted at me and used many back but the differance was that they not used as a racial name or an expression of hatred and were always said in a frendly way and accepted as such and I think thats the way this young Royal made the comment. his brother officer has had 3 years to complain and as far as I believe has made no public statement, so tell us the name of the "kiss and tell fool" who made money out of this, I would like to think its not a fellow officer becouse in the theatre of war his life may depend on his mates. Lets all grow up and look else where for newspaper headlines, like all the the foul language use by people and the filth laying around our streets etc dont home in on a comment made in friendly and warming way
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So Jieven (119) clearly takes Prince Harry to be a racist.
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Woops! I meant to add - well, I think that's sad, because I really don't believe the prince is a racist.
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(39) Doogle, Your para 2: bit harsh but I think you might have a point.
(45) Bruce: don't think you can be "illegitimate" if your erstwhile parents are married. You can, however, be the product of an affair. Is there some kind of news "blackout" about this? My moderation claimed potential 'defamation of character' but I can't be defaming Harry's character, surely?
I can't believe how much debate this has stirred up!
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Is the debate on the p-word being descriptive and not neccessarily racist not dead and buried by now? It isn't the same as Brit, Yank, or Afghan because, even though the comparison is logical, it's use has dictated its form, that is, as a term of abuse. Trying to protect Harry (or ourselves) by trying to claim the word isn't offensive is counterproductive.
Harry should be protected because a). it was a private conversation and the ponly person one answers to in that situation is those involved, i.e. none of our business and b). because I suspect we all live in glass houses here.
That isn't to say that we shouldn't try to live up to high moral standards, but that they are not encouraged by pretending something isn't racist when it is, or diverting blame from ourselves onto an easily identifiable target.
The comment was unacceptable in the public eye and unfortunately he must always assume he is in the public eye which is a terrible burden if you believe you are among friends. After the initial realisation that the comment was innapropriate and the apology the matter is of no value to us and should disappear. (Hence I am adding blog entry 126...)
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The first question is whether ['P' word goes here] is an acceptable word - the answer is 'yes, why not?'
However, I am not an Asian, so, do I have the right to say this? I feel that I do and here is why. I have traveled more than most, my work having taken me all over the world. (around 40 countries last count) In many of those countries I have been referred to, at least once, as 'Jock' or 'Scotty' - can you guess why? Neither of those is my name. I have also been called 'Brit Guy' and had people say 'Hey, you there, 'English' ' What do you know! Neither of those is my name either!
The second question is whether ['RH' word goes here] is an acceptable word, again, why not?
However, I am not of Arabic descent, so, do I have the right to say this? I feel that I do and here is why. I have traveled more than most, my work having taken me all over the world. (around 40 countries last count) In many of those countries I have been referred to, at least once, as 'Kiltie' or asked if I wear a skirt at home - can you guess why?
Yes, you can guess why, both times I asked you.
Here is another question for you, are any of those names that I have been called acceptable? I think they are just fine. Now, if I felt that they were pointing out a failing that was real in my race/nationality, or even perceived to be real, then I may be less than happy. There are two people who could 'do the perceiving' here - the person doing the 'calling' or the person 'called'.
The one who could be hurt by the use of a racial slur needs to decide their own reaction to it. Me? I 'consider the source'. In other words, I can not respect a person who would use racial slurs to hurt. By extension, I can not be hurt by someone whom I don't respect - thus, I have considered the source (and found it wanting). In this manner the 'called' has drawn the teeth of the 'caller'.
I see no bad intent in what was said in the video under discussion and neither do I see any reason what so ever why ANY soldier should be expected to use a different vocabulary to those whom he is serving alongside. I know that such instances will come back to haunt that young man in the future and that he is high profile. I think that he is man enough to deal with it.
My first attempt to post this comment was 'failed by the profanity filter' - I have just edited the 'P' word and will try again. If the post goes through now, can I then consider that the matter has been pre-judged, thus making the entire thread somewhat pointless?
A second edit has dealt with the 'RH' word. Same question regarding pre-judgement applies.....
Shame that 'Brit', 'Jock' and 'Scotty' got through though.
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QualifiedLoon:
I agree nicknames can be offensive... when directed at strangers.
What we are talking about here is an instance between 2 people in private and as such isn't worthy of later analysis by outsiders. As 3 years have elapsed, we can fairly safely assume that no offence was taken by the party concerned when the video was shot.
Taken out of context, of course other people could take offence were they to be called by the same nickname.
To me, the real "crime" is that, although fully aware of this fact, a paper took it upon themselves (as is the norm with our media) to publish the story for the sake of a gutter headline. This amounts to unnecessarily inciting racial tension which is by far the most important point, but which is, of course, ignored.
Showing my age, many years ago, I worked in a factory environment, where, amongst the "gang" of blokes with whom I worked, was a black guy who often called us all "honkies" and we retort by calling him "Sam*o" during everyday ribbing and conversation. The working relationship / friendship I had with that bloke during the year we worked together was probably stronger than any I had with any of my white colleagues at the time. Neither of us took any offence - the idea would have seemed completely ludicrous to us both.
In effect, we were all joking "in private" and any ribbing was taken as meant - in context.
Now, were I to have walked down the street and used the same terms to address a stranger, I would certainly have expected to cause offence - an odd situation to have been in as my ladyfriend at the time was also black.
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The title of this discussion thread is, and I quote (cut and paste even!), "Our little ['P' word does NOT go here it seems] friend". So why can't I use the 'P' word in my post - or can I? [no, I can't]
If you see no edit 'below the line' then it seems that I can and I just don't understand the so called 'Profanity Filter' which made me edit the word previously.
-------------------------------------
It failed! Is there a list of 'These words will fail the filter' words anywhere on the site? It really does make a farce of the discussion if the word is allowed above but not below when the very word is the point of the discussion.
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Do Brit, Jock or Scotty have a history in which they were used as offensive terms for describing someone you consider beneath you? No. They are simple descriptors, the p-word is not. It is loaded. That is why the recation is differnet if you shout it in the middle of a shoping centre. You may not like that it is differnet or gets a different reaction, but it does and that is the nature of the word, defined by it's use and understanding. The comparison with Brit etc. is simply not valid.
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AG1 @ 128 - I absolutely agree!
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Firstly, it is irrelevant how long ago this incident took place and how much Harry might have grown up/seen the error of his ways. No well educated,intelligent young man of Harry's age would dream of using such language. And that's the point: he is not the brightest and that's what I find offensive and objectionable:I'm paying for this yob and his life style. If he were just another idiot in the public eye,I would not really care but he's not.
Secondly, of course it's offensive language, just as offensive as Y** would have been if his colleaugue had been Jewish.
It may only be a word; it may have undergone several changes from harmless to outright abusive and it may even have been reclaimed by those it sought to oppress but it is still shocking in its aggression. The fact that Harry could not see that speaks volumes;the context in which he said it is immaterial.
Of course language changes, time passes and the nature of what causes offence alters. I am a lesbian; if Harry (or anyone else of his ilk) were to call me a dyke, as I'm sure they would, it would not cause me offence. It is now a word used quite commonly amongst some lesbians to refer to each other but it never used to be.
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ref. 130.
Actually, yes. Well, not beneath ME strictly. However, if you were to attend an international football match, for instance, you could easily hear such terms as 'You [copulating] jock/brit/etc [offspring of unmarried parents]' from a roving band of hooligans.
Note above that I did suggest that you 'consider the source'. If 'the source' is to be someone calling out such words in the middle of a shopping center as opposed to a young soldier in the midst of a group of friends then possibly a deeper analysis of the matter would be required.
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I think most angles of this have been covered but one point seemed to be lacking from the debate both on the radio and on the blog. The term is obviously offensive but also is extremely naive. To see someone of Asian origin and call them p is ridiculous in all likely hood they will be from India.
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Eddie:
Is the term offensive?
Yes and it is very distasteful language....
~Dennis Junior~
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GF 133, C'mon, roving bands of hooligans don't even know words like copulating and offspring.
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pb 128, I'm from the US (Ohio, not the south) and find the term 'Yank' offensive. Isn't that good enough for you?
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pb, Make that 126.
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philtblog (130): try shouting out "You ephing Jock git" to a Weegie in the middle of a "shoping" centre and you'll soon find out whether or not he finds it offensive!!
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Lady Sue: Have you seen this link?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2273498.stm
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IGwt 110, Sorry, I eat Ben and Jerry's. I don't believe the names Cohen and Greenfield are Italian. But I don't say, "I'll have a pint of that 'Y' ice cream, please."
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C'mon Eddie, why can you use the 'P' word at the top, but we can't use it in our posts?
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BS 142, DNA tests should settle the question. I'll have one if they will.
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David: I suspect that's already happened, don't you?
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BS 146, So who asked which Royal for theirs?
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tncl 4, Our daughter won't mind my relating this story. She served in Bosnia when in the TA, driving the Parde around. Although only in the army, many people would tell her their troubles because of her job. She has red hair and they called her the Ginger Nun.
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Going off at a slight tangent:
a) What would be considered an acceptable abbreviation of Pakistani? Evidently people from that region would probably regard "Indian" as offensive, even though the entirety of that part of the world was part of India until 60 years ago... I suppose you could potentially use the term "Asian" - it's certainly very non-specific, given the wide phenotypic (and probably genotypic) variation in humans from different segments of the continent.
b) Has anyone in an ethnic minority interest group considered publishing a glossary of "avoid" and "prefer" terms, to raise awareness amongst the public about both words to be avoided and alternative terms which are preferred. Most people are familiar with some preferred terms for disabilities - e.g. wheelchair user, not wheelchair bound; has cerebal palsy, not is a s*****c; so how about a campaign for other negative stereotypes?
c) There's a lot of comments on the quantity of coverage the BBC gave to this story. How does it compare with rival news outlets, e.g. ITN, Sky?
And finally (and sneakily):
d) Amazing how many people commented on the profanity filter's treatment of the abbreviation as though it was a new discovery - how many people jumped straight in for a comment without reading previous posts first? :)
e) If you think the profanity filter's treatment of the abbreviation is odd, it also doesn't like the letter between j and l on its own, as part of the abbreviation for okay, or following a number...
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Yes, the 'kay-letter'. Very odd.
I have, just for info, heard the word 'Brit' used in a derogatory manner, and especially in the context of the Northern Ireland troubles, as in 'Brits out'.
I suspect that some people the US may also use it in a negative way, but I dare say DMcN or someone else will correct me on this if I'm wrong.
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k
is this a problem?
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k
No.
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ok
is this a problem?
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3k
is this a problem?
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K
OK
3K
Is it a problem in capitals?
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Kapitalism by any other name, Loon ;o)
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mittfh (149) -Assuming my posts don't suddenly disappear and I'm not banned from the blog, I can't see the 'k' problem.
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Big Sis - Has there been a problem with K?
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I think there was a little while ago, but apparently not now.
But what would I k-now?
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There used to be a problem with 'k' - historically, both of the following would have been regarded as profane:
OK
300k
I wonder if they've now sorted the character set issue as well..
£300 (300 UKP)
$500 (500 USD)
?700 (700 Euro)
It still doesn't like ampersands though, and is now rejecting them even if escaped with amp;
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Wanna have some fun? Paste this page's address here and have a go.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
Namaste -ed
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Try the onomatopoeic word related to "puff", which now has disparaging (to some) connotations regarding gender orientation....
;-)
ed
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The Mods (who are as Gods) don't seem to like examination of their source.
;-)
ed
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Does this widen, or narrow the debate..?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7826701.stm
"Charles faces 'Sooty' name claim
"The prince is said to have used the nickname for many years
The Prince of Wales has been calling an Asian friend "Sooty" for years, it has emerged after the row over his son Prince Harry's use of a racist term."
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It seems posting questionable sourcecode is "spamming"
;-)ed
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C 165, Have they been trying to Sweep it under the carpet?
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F_O 150, I don't remember Americans using the word 'Brits'. I think everybody is called English over there. Of course, I've been away for 25 years.
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D_M 167
Probably.
I thought "Sooty" and "Sweep" were Registered Trademarks or Copyright or something like that.
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Thanks for the clarification, DMcN (168).
Of course, to call a Scottish, Welsh or Irish person 'English' is a deadly insult.....
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C 169, I'll ask the man who cleans our chimney.
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F_O 170, As is calling a Canadian an American (US style). I'm Scotch-Irish, Scots-Irish to Rosbifs.
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I wonder if poo will get through...
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i'm an undercover stani we also get called dags, gundhi or nothing at all unless someone needs some clever work done
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All my posts are being removed. Clearly someone's got it in for me.
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So a young royal says something a little obtuse over three years ago and Rupert Murdocks idiots at the News Of The World decide to stir up trouble with it, go to any town where there is an Asian community and the ordinary people will refer to the convenience stores operated buy this ethnic group as "P*** Shops", it isn't meant in an offensive way, I have to say that I have used the term myself and I am not a racist, I find racism abhorrent but I use the term "P***" almost as an endearment, to me the term refers to a person who originates from Paskistan, I have many Pakistani friends and they themselves have been known to use the term, they are not offended by it unless the term is used aggressively and then that is understandable isn't it.
The News Of The World have a lot to answer for by bringing this up, surely there are more newsworthy stories to print rather than trying to stir up racial hatred, perhaps the editor can be prosecuted for that, it is a crime, isn't it?
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captain31 I absolutely agree with you. It is a massive fuss being made just for the sake of selling newspapers, regardless of the possibility of very real harm being done by increasing the armoury of insults available to racists.
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Why is the BBC filtering out words that habe appeared in print on the PM Blog page from peoples comments? surely the BBC isn't practicing "NANNYISM"? god forbid, (I am allowed to use the word god aren't I?) I tried to use a word which is largely considered offensive among the Pakistani community but the profanity filter refused to allow it yet the BBC use it openly, I did not mean for it to be construde in an offensive context but purely in the vein of the relative article on the blog, am I wrong for doing this?
If the BBC wish to behave in this manner then perhaps they should close down this blog because the participants are not allowed to use the same vocabulary as the BBC.
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captain31 wrote: "If the BBC wish to behave in this manner then perhaps they should close down this blog because the participants are not allowed to use the same vocabulary as the BBC."
I wouldn't mind if it was closed down anyway as it's a real time-eater. Distracts me from writing emails to the actual programme (which is probably a relief for poor Eddie as I do send him quite a few!)
Also, it is just tooooo tempting to try and stretch the envelope, innit!
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Well the thought police are clamping down once again on free speech. Correctness is in vogue by the ?nannies? and would be ?big brothers? all under the entirely misguided idea that if people are stopped saying things it stops them thinking them ? well surprise, surprise ? it doesn?t.
There?s only one type of free speech anything less is censorship and we all deep down know censorship like prohibition doesn?t work ? never did and never will. We humans successfully evolved and improved our gene pool by filtering out the least fit, the same rules apply to speech.
Hopefully the politically correct brigade will go the same way as Mary Whitehouse becoming the justifiable butt of jokes and ridicule. Only by laughing at such naive ideas political correctness will we find enlightened freedom.
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IDCAM,
You've outed the true purpose of the blog!
;-)
ed
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This is crazy is everyone going mad, in this day and age with inter-racial relationships and friendships are we really dealing with this for the third day! I am a white 'brit' (british as on passport and birth certificate) my beautiful partner is Pakistani abbreviated to...... Oh wait i cant say that! Her whole family believe this is ridiculous.
If someone from Sri lanka or India was called this it would be unfortunate, but this was not true of this case.
There is also the matter of tone of voice, there was no malice in Harrys voice only a reference to friendship, please could we all just grow up, stop pointing fingers, and learn the difference between an insult and an abbreviation of a nationality!
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Im off now - closing this down off my machine. Had enough of the nonsense. Bye.
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God save us from the tyranny of those with a sense of humour, especially a goonish one.
This poor fellow, Kolin Dhillon, has for years had to put up with the feebly humorous nickname bestowed upon him by Chuck and the rest of the Cirencester Set. Had Mr Dhillon ever objected, he would have stood accused of the crime of Lacking a Sense of Humour. If I am allowed a digression, I cannot help drawing analogies with the plight of my friend Tom Stevens, who has to grin at and bear his new nickname -- it writes itself: think of a Welsh popstar of the 1980s -- following a recent diagnosis of Parkinson's Disease.
But back to Sooty Dhillon, you might expect him to relish payback time, now that it has come. But no: duty to the club prevails, and he has to make a public statement defending Charles, and the rest of them by extension.
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idcam 188, I know how you feel.
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Surely the fact that Prince Harry used the racist term 'Paki' is not the main issue. The main issue is that it just goes to show the normal everyday way that service personnel talk to and about each other, which should be unacceptable. I would bet on it that if you eavesdropped on any group of men from the Army, Navy, Airforce, Police Service, Fire service, etc . you would find the same language being used. I think it is very wrong to use these terms, whether the people being referred to object or not will never really be known, as I am sure they would be on the receiving end of more jeering and ridicule if they did so. White service people just think this type of nickname is OK, but it just is not. By the way, I am a middle-aged, white British woman.
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I have been informed by the Mods (who are as Gods) that the name of a well-known college song, "whiffenpoof", is:
and has thus been removed....Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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Groups of people who live or work together day by day may tend not to call each other 'Mr. Windsor', 'Mr.Jones', 'Mr. Branflake', or whatever other surname, all the time.
Some will be called 'Dave'; some, because there are already fifteen Daves in the group, will be given a nickname if only so that when somebody says 'ask Dave...' the others know which Dave to ask.
The nicknames may relate to *anything* that helps tell one Dave from another: when I was in a place with eight Daves, we had a Dave the Kettle, known as Kettle or Ketty, because on one occasion he had boiled the kettle dry and we had to get a new one. How cruel that was! Poor man, he was clearly the victim of abuse. We also had a Dave the Hair aka Hairy (he was bald) and a Tiny Dave (who stood six foot seven) who also answered to Titch, as opposed to Big Dave (five foot three but somewhat rotund). That last was clearly wicked because it might be taken as a slur on the overweight.
I am very fed up with people who are not part of a group trying to dictate what members of that group may or may not be called by other members of that group! What are they going to do about the Dave we called Taffy because he was a Scot? Get upset on his behalf because it's racial, or get upset because it's the wrong sort of racial, or maybe just belt up and mind their own silly businesses?
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Chris_Ghoti (193) - just belt up and mind their own silly businesses??
Your anger and exhortation would be justified if there was any connection with your latest post and the real subject of the thread. A shame really because you got close to the point in your (24).
The phrase used was: ". . . our little P--i friend, Ahmed". There is no question of the word being a nickname.
It is undeniable that the word is both found offensive by a great section of the population and used with offensive intent by a no doubt much smaller section.
Whether a 21-year old cadet officer intended any offence to a 'friend' is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that someone in the Military, being groomed for positions of authority and responsibility should use such a term is quite rightly to be condemned. Use of the word by people in such positions gives the signal to others to similarly use the word, perhaps with more obvious intention to demean and insult.
Do you think it would do much for recruitment from sections of the community if officers in the Military or Police used such an offensive word, whether they intended offence or not.
I'm not part of the Military but I feel perfectly justified in "trying to dictate what members of that group may or may not be called by other members of that group."
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