Among the calls to the Log about last night's programme:
Re. Middle East: Unhappy that a spokesperson from Syria was on the programme. "This is an anti-Israeli propaganda. We don't want to hear from them. It's not acceptable."
Re. Middle East: Felt the report on PM was pro-Israeli. "The BBC does not hear
and understand the other point of view."
Listen to PM
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~53~RS~)
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1st statement. An unacceptable statement from an ostrich. Ignore it.
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One problem was that the listen again did not work until nearly midnight. That was a program that certainly needed it immediately.
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What's wrong with anti-Israeli propaganda?
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How does both sides see the current situation in relation to Masada?
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I was quite glad to hear the lady from Syria. She said violence begets violence, which is why Israel has retaliated against the longstanding influx of missiles from Gaza.
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Is this the legendary BBC balance, then?
;o)
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Unqualified Loons, the pair of them.
The lady from Syria was a great interview - a good commicator, speaking understandably passionately, and the only person on the airwaves who has mentioned what the current events might produce 'in twenty years time'...rather than in 6 weeks time.
Although here, in fairness, I must say that Jeremy Bowen also makes a fair crack at the long term view over on the gogglebox.
More, please!!!!
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I think that as you are getting some people saying that the programme was anti Israeli and others saying that it was pro Israeli, you probably got it about right.
I heard the item and thought that the Syrain lady had some very imoprtant points to make until she started to rant and become very shrill. That was when she lost my support.
As difficult as it must be someone in her position, as a spokeperson for the Arabs, should be keeping as calm as possible to make sure she gets her points across and does not sound like a fanatic and an extremist.
And where are all the Arab countries? Apart from Egypt. Why aren't they rushing to Gaza's rescue? they all seem to be keeping very quiet.
And why are the Israeli's so frightened that they won't allow any reporters into Gaza. Is it becsue they know they are commiting atrocities and are trying to hide it.
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I wondered what Eddie was doing to 'interview' the lady from Syria. He hardly probed her at all but let her rant and work herself up into a crazed lather! Surely BBC editorial policy suggests that he should have done something?! Or was he trying to give her as much rope as she needed to - proverbially - hang herself. Which she duely did.
Why aren't you covering the moderate Arab voices and talking more about the tyranny that Hamas has wrecked on the poor Palestinian people?
C'mon BBC isn't it time you gave more interesting nuanced coverage of complicated issues?
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I found this interesting, if I'm allowed to post a link...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/29/gaza-hamas-israel
The surname of the author is what induced me to read it, by the way.
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It is amazing how differently people perceive things depending on where they're standing. If they're listening from one side of the fence it takes an awful lot to persuade them that the whole broadcast's not coming from the other side.
I agree with the nice cat lady, I would assume you got it about right.
I once had a complaint from a lady who wrote to say that I hadn't had much eye contact with her while scanning her dog. The scanning procedure involved me looking at both the scanner head, where it was on the dog, and the picture on the screen so it was pretty impossible for me to maintain much eye contact with the client. The same woman bought me flowers when I later operated on her dog. Same person, different day!
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I think the problem for both callers is that they have a viewpoint on the issue, and the PM broadcast (which I unfortunately missed) didn't follow exactly what they wanted to hear. This means that they see a bias where there may not be one. Nothing makes this happen more than reporting on the situation in Israel/Palestine/Occupied Territories/Call Them What You Want. To some, any criticism of Israel is tantamount to being anti-semitic. To others, any attacks on the Palestinian Territory is an act of oppression by an occupying power. Hamas is an elected governing body and/or a terrorist organisation. It is very had to be dispassionate about the situation.
We in Europe generally have guilt about how we let the Jewish people suffer during the second World War. But eqally, I feel we generally feel we don't want the Palestian people suffer either. We understand the fact that Israel needs to feel safe, but we also feel that the people who have been pushed off their lands into the Occupied Territories have legitimate grievances about how their land and resources are being expropriated by other, leaving them Ghetto-ised.
I'm not going to say that I have any answers here, but we should all take a step back before launching into staunch, unblinding support for either side here....
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There is another solution:
Google "Anti-Everything Gun" and watch the youtube video.
The gun is part of the anti-missile defence of navy ships etc.
Then there is the "Iron Dome" which is having it problems but is 1 year away from being operational.
However, these are types of weapon developments that escalate the technology and are only temporary solutions. But then war is only a temporary event. It is what is left afterwards that counts.
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gm 11
You're right. Regrettably, for many, though thankfully not all, it's human nature.
How many times have we been told there are at least two-sides to a story, if not three or four?
Yet how many can be bothered to enquire of all "sides" before forming a judgement..?
True Justice IS blind and, is a scarce commodity
If, as and when, a meaningful International settlement is "imposed", (because it will have to imposed) on the Countries, States and Peoples of the Middle East, that justice will by necessity be the Judgement of a Soloman.
Very few, if any, are going to like it or, the cost of it...
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After seven years and some 6,000 rockets and after having tried everything else, Israel finally strikes back
If Hamas (permanently) ceases firing rockets at Israeli towns, there will be no Israeli response nor any blockades
Surely that is not asking too much
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Israel hit a UN school because the terrorists were firing mortar shells from that location. In fact, they were using the building as a depot for arms storage - hence the magnitude of the explosion.
Rather than censuring Israel, the UN should be condemned for allowing its buildings to be used both as arm cachets and as firing points. This is not the first time we have seen such complicity. In Lebanon too Hasbola sometimes used UN posts as firing positions against Israel.
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GM and FF I agree with you here.
I thought the coverage was good and unbiased and I suspect that accusations of bias are coming from those with a particular view point which a balanced programme by definition does not pander to. I thoght Eddie's handling of teh Syrian spokeswoman was good as it was clearly a difficult interview and I'm not sure that interupting her more would have provoked anything other than futher rage and resentment.
This is a hard topic, keep up the good work. I, like DIB, would like to heard a larger range of normal palestinian and Israeli view points. For example, do normal palestinains support the rocket attacks on Israeli towns and villages by Hamas? Do normal Israelis want a free Palestinian state to exist?
Without yes but only if they do this or how would you feel if...
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jf 4, I have a good book about Masada.
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By the way, Charlie, I'm not sure Justice is what we're going to need after all this in the manner you suggested, more a peace and reconciliation approach like the South African model. Talking about after the arab-israeli crisis also seems a bit premature, doesn't it.
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fifi 10, Yeah, the international community is to blame for the massacre. Yawn....
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(10) Fifi I read the article and it makes very interesting reading. I agree about the author
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Fifi 10, I read it too. It is an opinion piece with a completely one sided point of view. Interesting enough bearing that in mind, but without any kind of balance and with such florid use of emotive language I doubt its trustworthiness.
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phil 19
Peace without some form of Justice..?
The South African model, in its way, was/is the Judgment of a Soloman.
Peace and reconciliation - the idea of which which many South African Peoples disliked intensely at the time (and some still do), but realised it, together with a political power change by democratic vote was only form of "justice" they're going to get - and survive.
As difficult a situation as South Africa was, the Middle East unfortunately, is by multiples, a far, far, more complex, politically dynamic, religious and ancient a problem. South Africa and the Northern Ireland issues combined wouldn't even come close. In my opinion.
Frankly, I've an awful feeling the present M.E. situation is sizing-up to be a version of the "Final-Solution".
I'm not sure which Countries/Coalitions have got the interest, will (or dare one say money) to reach any form of realistic short-term, let alone medium or long-term solution. With any of the multiple protagonists... So many "interests" have ploughed their own furrow (and continue to do so) since the State of Israel was created.
In the end, "Fine words butter no parsnips"
The modern World has had around 60 years of fine words on this issue.
Which leads us today...
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Piper, my point is that, if peace finally comes with a two state solution (as I hope it ultimately will) starting war crimes tribunals and instituting heavy handed justice around the region will cause more problems than it solves. I suspect that, if we get to where we want to go, the best thing is going to be a light touch approach to looking backwards because very people people will be able to throw stones...
I do hope your worng about the the direction of travel here but I share your sense of dread that you may not be.
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PLEASE drop the Upshares/Downshares attempt at mirth. Hundreds of thousands of people are losing their jobs in the UK, millions are having their savings and pensions destroyed by the economic collapse - and your intro to the business section of an otherwise good programme is too immature even to be classed as puerile.
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phil 24
I hear what you say.
Palestinians rejected a State for themselves in 1947(?) And, for what? Lack of control of Bethlehem?
What decision will they make now - if they're lucky?
Maybe, we shall see...
The Judgement of Soloman doesn't involve war crimes tribunals etc.
Which is why, yet again, the "Arab World", may reject a lasting settlement proposal...
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I wrote a letter to Today over 20 years ago (no email) complaining about anti-Israeli reporting and also to BBC TV about Bowen's anti-west/Israeli reporting. I got the useal balanced reporting BS, so quit complaining.
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I welcomed the views of the Syrian lady and the lady from the Israeli army. The point I wholeheartedly agreed with was the one about "there will be no talk of peace in 20 years' time if we do nothing now." Paraphrasing, of course. I also agreed with the American man who said "This can't be sorted out with war." It is no longer a case of who did what to whom. But how are these neighbours to live together - cos neither of them are going anywhere, except - for many - a too-early grave.
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Well, at least Tony Bennett was good
http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2009/01/well-at-least-t.html
And, he was! At least from a video mobile phone recorder
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If I am getting the figures right from the reports I have read, Gaza City is about a third the area of Bristol, with about double the population. It has (had) a small number of buildings of three storeys or more. This suggests to me that there is a very high concentration of human beings per square foot of the place.
How the blue thundering blazes could anyone possibly lob explosive of any kind into that and *not* hit civilians? Leave aside all the rights and wrongs, just ask about the practicalities. Can this be done?
On the subject of killing a large number of people in a UN building, and injuring about twice as many more (the numbers don't seem to be being disputed), I don't really think that the UN would be shouting for an independent enquiry into this if they knew they had been allowing that building to be used as a weapons store and gun-amplacement full of civilian hostages who were being held there at gunpoint by the Evil Terrorists. That the people who did the killing are claiming justification for it is no surprise at all -- wouldn't anyone? -- but is somehow not entirely convincing.
Keeping out all the media is simply following the example of Mugabe: don't let people see things for themselves and they can't then report them, or if they do you can always call them liars or ill-informed. That's Propaganda 101.
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It makes me incandescent that I won't be able to buy incandescent bulbs. Grrrr!
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Cricket people:
Can we please not hear anymore about these boring people? Captains, coaches, cockroaches - what's the difference?
Sport in general is irksome and trivial but cricket and baseball are spectaculary irritational. Why does Radio 4 fell compelled to waste airtime on trivia which belongs on 5 Live?
Please dump this crap from the editorial list.
Jock
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On the business of the banning of incandescent light bulbs, why is it there has been no mention of the problems of disposal of low energy bulbs? They contain several 'heavy metals' (I believe mercury is one of them) that are very dangerous to the environment. Even though their life is much longer, they will still have to be disposed of eventually. Are there to be adequate disposal points for them? This rush to ban ordinary light bulbs is yet another example fo knee jerk reactions that don't seem to have been thought through. Bob Ashley
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JDS 32, You should see some of the rude postcards I send from France when I turn on Radio 4 longwave for the news and get hour after hour of dlobby cricket. But they keep broadcasing the rubbish.
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Where is the flippin' glass box?
So annoying!
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Three cheers to Venezuela.
Since the Israelis are controlling the media how can you believe a word they say? I can't understand why journalists are playing by the rules...
Interestingly, Stop The War are saying that Facebook moderators deleted the next Stop The War event page (for this Saturday coming) which had around 20,000 invite acceptees already...
Can you do a piece on what American Jewish celebrities are saying about Gaza? Are they saying anything?
Obviously I'm one of those who wants to hear less Israeli lies and more of the truth...
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I urge you all to read World News - Gaza - Report by Avi Shiaim, Oxford (Professor of international relations) for enlightenment on the Israel /Palestinian
history. I found it most enlightening, and, though lengthy, had to read every word.
This man served in the Israeli Army and knows his stuff!
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PLEASE BBC CAN WE HAVE LESS BIASED REPORTING ON THE PALESTINIAN CONFLICT AGAINST ISRAEL. JEREMY BOWEN IS THE BIGGEST OFFENDER. WE NEED COMPLETE HONESTY AND WE ARE NOT GETTING IT.
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Claims that the BBC is biased one way or the other in their reporting of the situation in Gaza surely misses the point and frankly, provides a convenient distraction.
For good reason, the BBC is intensely focused on providing a balanced view and the predictable presentation by the BBC of examples of complaints from both sides in response to complaints of bias tends to bear this out.
But the point that seems to be missed here is not a journalistic one, but a political one. It is that the State of Israel holds a uniquely exploitable position in the world. This is due to the history of the people who's interests it claims to represent, it's relationship and dependence on US foreign policy and the collective guilt citizens of other democratic countries feel for what occurred before and during WWII.
This unique position would be eminently exploitable by any state that would seek to further its regional power and ambitions (and most do!), particularly when they have a military capability far beyond any other other state in the region. On this point, comparisons with the German expansionist policies of the 1930's are not entirely unfair.
The BBC's painfully self-conscious tip-toeing through this issue is a result not directly of it's generally-stated policy of even-handedness, but of a conflict between generally Left and liberal-leaning journalists, editors and producers who deplore the horrendous prosecution of a political and military campaign largely against civilians and a very powerful and focused US-led Western political culture that both carries and exploits a view of Israel that is entirely mediated by the history of its people.
This leaves us with an Israel that can carry out daily atrocities against civilians with all but the most limited of criticism and a state broadcasting organisation (the BBC) that is forced to describe what it sees coming into its news rooms often in fair detail, but then to very carefully provide full scope for reasoned-sounding self-justification by an endless stream of Israeli Government spokesmen and women.
Any other aggression of this type if carried out by a state less morally revered by misplaced guilt and cynical politicing would have been dealt with far less carefully and self-consciously by the BBC.
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Funny Joe (35) there's a bloggage. See the previous thread near the end
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Excellent interview with the lady who had two autistic sons. Very thoughtful answers from her to very sensitive and sensible questions from Eddie.
I also enjoyed the previous item about the "British Cern" though it took me a while to realise it wasn't a wind-up. I mean, down a mine interviewing the cleaning lady? But what a charming reporter he was ( I missed his name over the cooking noise at home, sorry). I loved the descriptions of the "building site" lab, and the silver foil used in the equipment. At last, a science report that I could relate to!
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31 - it makes me fluorescent that you're incandescent.
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Well, that's one in the eye for all those people who say Israel isn't a civilised country. I mean, what could be more civilised than giving Gaza a three-hour break to let food and water and medical supplies in, before resuming bombing the hell out of them?
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Gossipmistress (40)
Thanks, I thought I was the only one searching for the switch in the dark!
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43
What causes Israel to be so uncivilised?
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Sid @ 43, it would be even more impressive if the reporter hadn't mentioned that they started again ten minutes early, which must mean that nobody will be able to believe that they are safe during the whole of the 'three hour gap' tomorrow.
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Chris - yes, I know ... it's just so surreal.
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48
No. It's cold blooded murder.
The position of the diaspora in Western consciousness lets Israel get away with it.
30, 46, 47
Is what happened in Lebanon a lesson to you here?
Isn't the call for a cease fire a call for an Israeli victory?
Israel giving up all the occupied territories what should be called for.
There are no Israeli soldiers in Lebanon now. A hundred and one died there.
Why is it regarded as OK for Israel to kill Hamas militants but not OK for Hamas to try to kill invading Israeli soldiers?
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youallguesswhoiam (48): Your comment (as I type this) is still held in moderation, but as a_politico has since disappeared into a number, my guess (without event reading your comment) is that you are mac, etc., and I claim my five pounds.
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re the light bulb debate.
I SHALL NOT BORE U WITH MY QUALIFICATIONS TO TALK ABOUT LIGHT BULBS HOWEVER THEY ARE VERY GOOD.
WE ARE NOT COMPARING LIKE FOR LIKE WHEN WE TRY TO COMPARE A LOW ENERGY BULB WITH AN INCANDESCENT BULB. WHY READ ON.
A LOW ENERGY BULB CREATS LIGHT BY PASSING A CHARGE THROUGH A MIXTURE OF GASES AND CHEMICALS, THE LIGHT PRODUCED IS OF VERY POOR QUALITY, GENERALY COVERING A VERY SMALL PART OF THE SPECTRUM.
ON THE OTHER HAND AN INCANDECSENT LAMP PRODUCES LIGHT
IN A WAY THAT IS AS NEAR PERFECT AS U CAN PRODUCE, GENERALY COVERING THE COMPLETE SPECTRUM.
TO SUMERISE A FEW OTHER FAULTS OF THE LOW ENERGY LAMP, U CAN NOT DIM THEM WITH CONVENTIONAL DIMMERS, AND THEY ARE FULL OF QUITE NASTY CHEMICALS.
QUESTION ! WHY ARE THE LIGHTING MANUFACTURES SO KEEN FOR US TO CHANGE TO LOW ENERGY BULBS ? COULD IT BE THE BIGGER PROFIT GENERATED FROM THEM, I WONDER.
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Autism is a brain development disorder that impairs social interaction and communication
I was listening to a lady on radio4 who was being interviewed who had two children who had autism.
this posting is to say many thanks and I totally agree we cant remove the things that make us human
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Joe (44) no we're all fumbling here!
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49
This five pounds you claim. Isn't it really down to the poor form of your mount rather than your abilities as a jock?
Still, congratulations on being in a position to claim five pounds this soon after Christmas.
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50. At 11:14pm on 07 Jan 2009, jamesfb wrote:
re the light bulb debate.
I SHALL NOT BORE U WITH MY QUALIFICATIONS TO TALK ABOUT LIGHT BULBS HOWEVER THEY ARE VERY GOOD.
We only have your word for that.
I personally doubt it as what you wrote was utter tosh.
Incandescent bulbs produce light over to the red end of the spectrum, that's why photographs taken inside with this lighting are very reddish hued. Energy saving bulbs produce a much wider spectrum, and photographs show a much more balanced light. Our eyes and brain adjust for any lighting and see it as 'normal'. There are even energy saving bulbs which are sold as SAD treatment and for growing plants, as daylight bulbs.
You recycle the same old myths that have been around for years, yet claim you know what you're talking about. Using all caps doesn't make you more credible by the way.
Incandescent bulbs work by shorting a current across a wire, really advanced stuff huh? Based on the original Edison patent, and very very old tech, and inefficient. Energy saving bulbs work on sophisticated technology which produced a superior luminescence for a fraction of the power usage; typically 80-100 watts from 8 watts. The chemicals they have [not filled with] are mostly harmless, but there are traces of others which should not be released into the environment such as dumping in landfill, so they do need to be recycled properly - all councils have these facilities.
Your last 'point' is silly and juvenile, and so lacking in logic as to be not worth opposing, but I shall; energy wasteful bulbs last a few months, so are constantly being replaced, energy efficient bulbs last for many years [I am still using bulbs purchased twenty years ago] so there is much less profit involved for manufacturers, after the initial [phase where you all have to replace your soon to fail incandescents. A product which lasts decades and costs half the price now that it did years ago is not a massive profit machine.
Now, you were saying something about being qualified to talk about light bulbs?
One last point, the slow start of old energy efficient bulbs has been solved, they now come on instantly. You can also get ones which can be dimmed. So none of your points is valid.
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33. At 5:58pm on 07 Jan 2009, bobbybearboat wrote:
'On the business of the banning of incandescent light bulbs, why is it there has been no mention of the problems of disposal of low energy bulbs?'
There has been ample discussion for years over the chemicals they contain, where have you been?
'They contain several 'heavy metals' (I believe mercury is one of them) that are very dangerous to the environment. Even though their life is much longer, they will still have to be disposed of eventually. Are there to be adequate disposal points for them?'
As I've said in another post, but it's worth repeating, yes there are adequate disposal arrangements, all councils in the UK have facilities for recycling them.
'This rush to ban ordinary light bulbs is yet another example fo knee jerk reactions that don't seem to have been thought through. Bob Ashley'
Rush? I've been using these bulbs for twenty years [and some of the bulbs are sill going strong, way past their advertised life], the majority have ignored them, preferring to waste money on disposable bulbs and electricity bills, than embrace the new and despite schemes giving them out for free. There had to come a time when wasting energy like this is just not on. We have come to it now. That isn't a rush, it's long overdue. And it has been well thought through, just not by you.
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youllallguesswhoiam: The reference is a Graham Greene one, nothing to do with gambling.
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jfb 50, I say bring back typewriters and ban computers.
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db 9, Eddie doesn't probe women on PM. He isn't Russell Brand.
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Should Israel retaliate for the rockets coming from Lebanon? Only proportionately, I guess.
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ft 36, Read Robert Fisk and John Pilger.
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BS 49, Who is mac?
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jfb 50, Light bulbs are good or your qualifications are good? Enlighten us.
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DMN: Mac has appeared in various guises, most recently pmLeader and akapmLeader, then something-or-other politico, and now youllallguesswhoiam.
Unfortunately, there has been some unpleasantness from mac and sons of mac in the past, which is why many regular froggers are wary of him/her. That much said, s/he can be perfectly affable.
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The Wikipedia article on the current conflict in Gaza makes interesting reading: search for "2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict".
In a nutshell, from the signing of the ceasefire in June to the beginning of November, a total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel - a 98% reduction on previous months.
Things started to go downhill from November, when Israel killed six Hamas gunmen constructing a tunnel. In the following two months, 486 rockets and 209 mortars were fired at Israel.
On 27th December, Israel began "Operation Cast Lead", targetting the members and infrastructure of Hamas.
Hamas claimed Israel violated the ceasefire because it didn't reopen the border crossings and allow trade to resume.
Israel claimed Hamas violated the ceasefire because it failed to completely stop all rocket fire.
One interesting report is that "Operation Cast Lead" has been in planning for over six months, i.e. almost as soon as the ceasefire started.
-oOo-
Meanwhile, it's interesting reading up on the West Bank. There are about 2.5 million residents, plus about 1/2 million settlers (including those in East Jerusalem). There are about 500 checkpoints in the area, and a substantial portion of it is either closed to Palestinians or severely restricted. Most of the major roads are also off-limits to Palestinians - Israel appears to be in favour of setting up two completely independent road networks, one for the settlers and one for the Palestinians. Looking at the maps on Wikipedia's West Bank page, it's difficult to imagine how a contiguous Palestinian state could be created, especially with the portion of territory being effectively annexed by Israel on the Western side of its "Security Fence".
-oOo-
Light bulbs - on BBC Breakfast this morning, brief mention was made of LED-based energy saving bulbs, which should hit the market later this year. They'll be instant-on, dimmable, don't contain any mercury or gases and apparently have a life of up to 25 years...
However, reading up on Wikipedia, currently they are expensive to produce, aren't omnidirectional (i.e. they don't cast light evenly in all directions), have a lower colour rendering index than fluorescents, have noticeably different colour temperatures at different viewing angles and need to be kept cool (probably with heatsinks). There's also a problem for manufacturers as they last considerably longer than conventional bulbs (so manufacturers can't rely on you regularly replacing them!)
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I think it is time to speak up for the CFL. They save around 75-80% of the energy used by an incandescent bulb for the same light output and last much longer. This is a very worthwhile saving.
CFLs are line and band emitters but they can simulate white light well enough for the human eye. A few people are photosensitive to short wavelength blue light but it is possible to filter it out. If there is demand for them then low pass filtered CFL lamps could be made. There are already CFLs that simulate the warm light of a filament bulb.
Streets, shopping malls and most large stores already use mostly a mixture of high pressure sodium, mercury and conventional fluorescent lamps so the MEPs claims about public spaces being made inaccessible to photosensitive sufferers through the use of CFLs can be invalidated on those grounds.
The situation where CFLs really fall down is that they cannot be used at home with dimmers (and it can damage both the dimmer and the CFL to attempt it - something which the public tend not to notice in the small print). For the very few people who really are so photosensitive that they have to use dimmed (and much redder) incandescent lights there is a real issue.
NB Beware - some CFL brands with no written warning use an icon for "not dimmable" so cryptic that it only makes any sense if you already know what it means!
I believe the vast majority of the complainants that the MEP represents are afraid of any change. Most people would be unable to tell the difference between an incandescent bulb and a CFL with a warm phosphor blend in a blind test (without the aid of a spectroscope). It would be interesting to test some of these "sensitive" subjects - lets see how significant this problem really is. It is far too easy to hide behind the needs of vulnerable groups as an excuse for doing nothing.
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65. Actuially I recently received 2 free low energy bulbs from my energy supplier, and they are "Warm white." This is the first time I have see any such luminaires claiming to be of a particular colour. Tubes have been available in various colours for years.
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these LED bulbs, mittfh -- was anything said about disposal when they finally break?
I've been waiting for this particular bit of tech to come on-stream for some years now, because I have found all the low-energy bulbs that have been available for me to buy during the past two decades to be unsatisfactory. I don't know where petepassword has been buying them, but clearly it hasn't been on the same planet as the ones I have been buying all these years.
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Re low energy bulbs. I've been using these for years without any issue. In fact I still have the original bulbs I purchased when I was renting a flat more than 12 years. One of the groups that the MEP mentioned last night that couldn't use CFL bulbs was those suffering from psoriasis. If my experience as a sufferer is anything to go by, that claim is totally false. In fact, for me, the occasional treatment that I go through to ameliorate the condition involves treatment in a light booth driven by flourescent tubes! Those who know me will attest to the fact that the psoriasis is moderate to heavy, so I would guess I'm a good test case.
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On another matter, there's currently a hoax email in circulation regarding criminals posing as painters handing out business cards at petrol stations, which are impregnated with a drug that incapacitates people who handle it.
The version received in my office had been forwarded at some point in its history via a recruitment officer at West Midlands Police. Inevitably, between there and here the email had been appended with claims it was a genuine, official warning, and was not a hoax (which is usually a good indicator that it is!)
http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/burundanga.asp
Regardless of context, any email which invites you to forward it onto multiple other recipients is little more than a chain letter.
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mittfh (69):
I don't accept leaflets, free newspapers or free samples from people on the street or in railway stations just in case they're coated with some unpleasant/dangerous/lethal substance.
Paranoid? Yes. But paranoia's a survival trait.
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68. Fearless Fred: Me too, have had efficient bulbs for twenty years, and my psoriasis is less now than at any other time in my life. I doubt whether any of the other so-called 'health concerns' are anything else but rumour mongering by people who also claim microwave ovens are dangerous, as well as a host of other 'dangers' in the modern world. I think it's 99% hysterical [psychosomatic] as there seems to be no scientific basis for any of it.
I'm sure these sufferers THINK they are reacting to their perceived villain, whether it would stand up to objective analysis is quite another thing. Voodoo can cause people to die merely by believing they will.
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Chris_Ghoti: I've been buying them on planet Earth. Where you been? You don't specify what is unsatisfactory in your opinion. The colour? The start up? The shape? All these issues have been addressed over time [paid for in part by people like me buying them] and the technology now is highly sophisticated. Perhaps a rethink is necessary, rather than recycling old myths?
As for LEDs, you seem to think there's a disposal issue with these too? Are you also complaining about the plethora of LEDs used in anything from torches to headlamps to PCs to just about anything? Why not?
To be still using the technology invented by Edison is a tad passé don't you think?
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petepassword @ 72, the thing that I have specified as unsatisfactory, every time this subject is mentioned, is the start-up time. The colour and shape are not a problem for me, and have not been during the decades I have been buying these things (please stop assuming that you are the only person who has been using them for more than a year or so, eh?); the lifespan and the disposal are a problem and always have been.
You can go on saying that they light up immediately until you are blue in the face, but if the experience of the person you are saying it to is that they don't, you will not convince him or her. Not one of the fourteen energy-saving bulbs at present in this house performs as well as you claim yours do; one at present takes just over nineteen minutes to reach the same level of light as that provided by the new bulb in the same room, which takes only about forty seconds to stop being a bit of a dim bulb. I would be delighted if because of your saying that it doesn't do this, it didn't, but I fear that it can't hear you.
This has been true of bulbs from all the main retail outlets in southern England that sell them, plus two specialist electrical supplies shops and one furnishings superstore with a four-letter name that starts with I and ends with A, as well as four bulbs that were a special offer from the Independent newspaper, and four that were a 'free gift' from the electricity supplier (those last were the worst of the lot). The price during the time that I have been buying them has fallen from something in excess of fifteen pounds (at a time when I could get four ordinary 100w bulbs for just over a pound sterling), and that is about the best thing to be said about this particular part of the business of trying to be reasonably responsible about the environment and my use of its resources for the past forty years and more
except that i have a nasty feeling that they now last for a shorter time than they used to. I might not have gone on with them if I'd been paying fifteen quid per bulb and they had lasted only six months, back when they first became available.
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In my opinion it is Israel's right to protect itself and it's citizens by whatever means necessary regardless of how this is interpreted by the foreign media and the reaction this creates on both sides of the argument. This would quite rightly be the case in any Western democracy faced with the same threat.
If Hamas held the interests of their people as a priority they would have used the land Israel handed back in a constructive way in order to benefit them not arm themselves and use their citizens as human shields.
The only thing Israel has not been accused of in this conflict is eating Christian children. However, some of the coverage has come pretty close.
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I bet that nobody here (or possibly anywhere) knows the answer to this, but hey, why not:
What is the number of beds (divan or bedstead with mattress, or futon, or cot) per head of population in Israel?
What is the number of beds (divan or bedstead with mattress, or futon, or cot) per head of population in Gaza?
I ask because I vaguely remember a news broadcast a while ago, when the embargo on Gaza was lifted for a short time, in which a young man had rushed across the border to try to get a bed for himself and his wife. They were not obtainable in Gaza, and he had been wanting to get her one for rather a long time so that they no longer had to sleep on the floor. He could afford to buy it, he just had none to buy until he was allowed out of prison briefly.
Y'know, I may not feel that Israel has no right to defend herself and her citizens, but I do feel that there is some sort of inequity going on in the long term, and I am not convinced that it is entirely the fault of the people of Gaza that they are not allowed to import items such as mattresses, even if they are not entitled to oil or clean water or medicine or....
i mean, what sort of weapon is a mattress, and why is it a threat to anyone's safety?
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74 and 75
I don't disagree that Israel has the right to defend itself. But one has to ask whether its policies in the last weeks, months and years have achieved that?
Defending oneself doesn't always mean attack and when the ongoing stimulus is radicalisation is maintained by government policy (the lack of freedom of movement, trade etc/. that CG and many other here have talked about) I would argue that the Israeli government has let down its people.
The rocket attacks and sucide bombings must stop, that is a clear and immutable fact. The Israeli occupation of Palestinian land must stop and freedoms to the seperate state of Israel returned. This is also clear.
These things need to happen with the prejudice of blaming each other or demanding that 'they do so and so before we'll do such and such'. This will take a strong and brave Israeli government and a wise Hamas leadership and I'm afraid Israel may have to make the first move because Hamas are less likely too.
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C-G 73, Regardless of what pp says, our bulbs don't come up to full power immediately, and what's more, I don't care.
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C-G 73, PS My computer takes time to get going as well.
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BS 63, I don't remember mac, but I suspect that the pmLs and several others are the same person by the layout of their posts. I even said that I was Thejestersings the other day and he hasn't disproved it.
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SSC 70, This post to you is covered with .....
And I wonder how long it will last.
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